BS: Follow Jesus, not religion Andrew Sullivan

Subject: RE: BS: Follow Jesus, not religion Andrew Sullivan
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 05 May 12 - 08:48 AM

Unfortunately for your friend Ian, his children's school might put the idea to them that using lies and deceit to obtain things that you are not entitled to, is morally repugnant.

Subject: RE: BS: Follow Jesus, not religion Andrew Sullivan
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 05 May 12 - 08:38 AM

I think that the Christian ethos of these schools is particularly conducive to good learning, living and loving.
Problem is, I can't fathom what you think the reason is?

Oh yes.
Coincidence.

Subject: RE: BS: Follow Jesus, not religion Andrew Sullivan
From: Musket
Date: 05 May 12 - 05:39 AM

And then some. How can you be lying by saying you believe in God when you don't? It doesn't matter either way, as God is an abstraction.

Lying about something that is nonsense in order to get your kids educated is not a problem. Especially when in a sane world, you would not need to.

I would hazard a guess that a large number of parents don't buy into Jesus either, but would feel they have have the school think they do, as the faith schools are attracting the more encouraged children, making the sink schools sink further...

I reckon Keith, that we are in agreement that they are doing well, but seem to be disagreeing about the reason. Problem is, I can't fathom what you think the reason is?

Subject: RE: BS: Follow Jesus, not religion Andrew Sullivan
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 05 May 12 - 04:33 AM

To say it is something to do with God is laughable.

But no-one is saying that.
I have specifically said it is not that.
As I said yesterday, "The CofE faith schools are very successful.
Even if there is no God, that remains a fact."

Faith schools don't do well because of faith, they do well because parents who don't give a flying f don't have kids there.

Not true.
For most of the pupils it is just their local school.
But, because they perform so well, they become sought after.
Like Ian's atheist friend who lied that he believed in order to get the benefit of a faith school for his kids.
Ian admitted he would do the same.

The scools are, for some reason, better schools.
Identify the difference and apply it elsewhere by all means, but do not believe that your imaginary friend Coincidence can create good things out of nothing when there is a more logical explanation.

Subject: RE: BS: Follow Jesus, not religion Andrew Sullivan
From: GUEST,Steamin' Willie
Date: 05 May 12 - 03:31 AM

By heck. Delusionism is getting a bit deep here!

Parents want good education for their kids. If enough responsible parents who take an interest in education send their kids to a school it will become a better performer.

The faith bit tends to indicate a school is interested in more than just crowd control and somewhere for kids to be each day.

Faith schools don't do well because of faith, they do well because parents who don't give a flying f don't have kids there.

To say it is something to do with God is laughable. The aim should be to improve all schools, not allow repressed Christians to take their aggression out on innocent children. There is no such thing as a Christian child, just a child with Christian parents.

Subject: RE: BS: Follow Jesus, not religion Andrew Sullivan
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 05 May 12 - 03:05 AM

People do want faith schools.
I posted the survey results.
It is the faith element that makes them different, but you believe it just coincidence that they are also better schools.

Thousands of identical coincidences?
That is a triumph of irrational belief over reason.

A school has to be good before people rush to get their kids in.
It is also an irrational belief that it happens the other way round.

Subject: RE: BS: Follow Jesus, not religion Andrew Sullivan
From: Musket
Date: 04 May 12 - 12:42 PM

You know, the thing is; I don't have a philosophy to offend.

(Ok, I have a published thesis which is philosophy I suppose, but as it is in a branch of physics, its only relevance is that I didn't go to God school either and can't complain at my outcome.)

People DON'T want faith schools, they want schools that successfully educate their children, and many faith based schools have that reputation. But again, I contend that this is due to discipline and parental support rather than fairies at the bottom of the garden. Remove the imaginary friend and you would still have good schools.

Subject: RE: BS: Follow Jesus, not religion Andrew Sullivan
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 04 May 12 - 11:28 AM

Pornography is pretty successful too.

Subject: RE: BS: Follow Jesus, not religion Andrew Sullivan
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 04 May 12 - 08:38 AM

Coincidence seems to be your invisible friend, Ian and Steve.

The CofE faith schools are very successful.
Even if there is no God, that remains a fact.
People want them.
Children succeed in them.
But you want to ban them just because they offend your philosophy.

Subject: RE: BS: Follow Jesus, not religion Andrew Sullivan
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 04 May 12 - 08:31 AM

Like God, Keith.

Or the Christian ethos gives a better comprehensive education? I would refute that so strongly

Same here. In fact, it's self-evident. Just think of all that extra time in which the kids would receiving real education instead of real anti-education proselytising.

Subject: RE: BS: Follow Jesus, not religion Andrew Sullivan
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 04 May 12 - 06:40 AM

The faith bit is irrelevant.
It is just a huge and bizarre coincidence.


Some people will believe anything, however irrational and improbable!

Subject: RE: BS: Follow Jesus, not religion Andrew Sullivan
From: Musket
Date: 04 May 12 - 06:25 AM

I'm not missing anything. I cannot see any evidence that making children fear and love an abstraction gives better eduction attainment figures. Discipline and parental support do that. If you took the imaginary friend out of it, these schools could and would still have good league tables and all the other things people want. But without risking scarring the children.

In the meantime, my lads went to a sink school. Both are degree educated professionals and the youngest is researching his PhD whilst teaching at a university himself.

Teachers who want to teach, parents who are active role models.. That's that make a good school. The faith bit is irrelevant.

Subject: RE: BS: Follow Jesus, not religion Andrew Sullivan
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 04 May 12 - 04:59 AM

You "refute that so strongly", by dismissing all the evidence and invoking a massive, extraordinary coincidence to explain the thoroughly documented success of these schools.
Fine, but I think you are missing something.

Subject: RE: BS: Follow Jesus, not religion Andrew Sullivan
From: Musket
Date: 04 May 12 - 04:23 AM

Another school with good attainment.

Or the Christian ethos gives a better comprehensive education? I would refute that so strongly, I'd give myself a mischief...

Subject: RE: BS: Follow Jesus, not religion Andrew Sullivan
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 04 May 12 - 02:55 AM

My point is that faith schools would carry on working as good schools with good attainment without the brainwashing of kids

You are still assuming it is a coincidence that faith schools are so successful.
Remove the Christian ethos and you have just another school.

Subject: RE: BS: Follow Jesus, not religion Andrew Sullivan
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 04 May 12 - 02:51 AM

Ian 29 Apr 12 - 09:08 AM

"Like I said, they need stopping. Children need education, not indoctrination and coercion. Child abuse is child abuse, regardless of rigged league tables."

Subject: RE: BS: Follow Jesus, not religion Andrew Sullivan
From: Musket
Date: 03 May 12 - 01:17 PM

Nobody wants to ban a school Keith, or if they do, I am sure they have an issue with life in general.

Likewise, I am not sure what my dogma is. I have a dog, but I expect you don't want a frivolous reply?

My point is that faith schools would carry on working as good schools with good attainment without the brainwashing of kids. I hear all the stories that they are not religious schools, just like I know there is normally collective worship and the link I gave earlier on this thread to a Catholic school asking older children to sign an anti gay marriage petition.

I wouldn't ban a school, I would always advocate religion being no more than a subject taught in the abstract same as history and geography. Religion explains a lot regarding where we are, how and why historical circumstances arose and some of the issues facing the world today. Renaming a school and reminding staff of their responsibilities under The Equality Act is not banning it.

But to have a faith school is no different to having a history or geography school. I fail to see the relevance of the religion aspect as useful, and contend that God doesn't give good results. Discipline, parental aspirations and positive engagement with children delivers the results.

So there is no need for faith schools in this day and age. Just the need to capture the actual positive aspects of some schools and translate that into other schools wherever possible. You only have faith schools because cynical politicians feel that alone could be a vote cruncher in marginal seats.

Religion causes enough conflict without perpetuating it....

Subject: RE: BS: Follow Jesus, not religion Andrew Sullivan
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 03 May 12 - 02:38 AM

God doesn't make you clever. Knuckling down and learning does.
Of course. That was never my assertion.
God helps those who help themselves.

I believe it is the ethos of the school that makes the difference.
A schools has to be good first, before people start flocking to it.
There is no coincidence.
That really is a pathetic explanation.
And remind us again why your dogma requires these much loved and successful schools to be banned.

Subject: RE: BS: Follow Jesus, not religion Andrew Sullivan
From: Musket
Date: 02 May 12 - 11:18 AM

In which case it is the CofE bit. Sorry Keith, you can't have it all ways.

It is a coincidence by the way that it is CofE. It isn't clutching at straws at all. Success breeds success. The increased discipline and push for attainment bred a reputation and parents who care for their children want them there for that reason. if parents support their children, they do better than if they are latch key kids.

Hence the figures are so good. (Generally speaking that is. Private education also does good as the parents encourage the children and the children are brought up knowing that school is important.)

Like I said, coincidence when it comes to imaginary friends. Understandable when you look at the need to succeed via parents and the upbringing of many of the children themselves.

I applaud that bit, I really do. I just don't think it is because of faith. God doesn't make you clever. Knuckling down and learning does.

Subject: RE: BS: Follow Jesus, not religion Andrew Sullivan
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 02 May 12 - 04:34 AM

There are four thousand six hundred CofE faith schools.
"Coincidence" is the most pathetic, straw clutching explanation for their success.

Subject: RE: BS: Follow Jesus, not religion Andrew Sullivan
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 02 May 12 - 04:15 AM

coincidence that they all have faith doctrine,
They do not offer doctrine.
They just try to provide a Christian ethos.
That is why they are acceptable and popular with atheists and even Muslims.

Subject: RE: BS: Follow Jesus, not religion Andrew Sullivan
From: Penny S.
Date: 02 May 12 - 03:54 AM

The only school I know of with a reputation for coaching was not CofE. They had excellent results in Y6. They also had a distinct physical difference from our children. When schools turned up for interschool sports, their children looked as if they were a year older. Taller, more well-built, and faster. (They used to coach their swimming team in lesson time - I saw them one strike day at the pool.)

They were in the more expensive part of the town, with parents of the type Don describes.

They had more children getting to the grammar school and the girls' grammar school. (Gender distinction quirk the result of history, which the boys' school will not disown.)

BUT, feedback from said grammar school showed that our children were in the top of their classes, and their children were not.

Any school distinguished by differences in catchment is likely to show the same characteristics, and CofE schools are often selected in the same way as this school is. Whether they then coach I know not, or if the work displayed on the walls shows the same spookily similar handwriting and content.

Schools should not be compared without distinguishing the different sources of the children they serve. Differing outcomes may not be due to differences in teacher quality, or teaching styles, or faith. children don't arrive in Reception classes identically.

Penny

Subject: RE: BS: Follow Jesus, not religion Andrew Sullivan
From: Musket
Date: 02 May 12 - 03:45 AM

Eiither it is a coincidence that they all have faith doctrine, or the faith bit is important to the attainment.

If the faith bit is important, this needs exploring. The logical conclusion is that God makes you clever?

Perhaps they all have pitched roofs? All have head teachers who drive Volvos? Either faith is an element, in which case why? Or it is a coincidence.

The coincidence bit could be the one actually. If they have the reputation, parents will want their kids there. The parents who want their kids there are the ones who urge their kids to do well, and so it perpetuates.

The trick is not to accept that God looks after his own, but to get all schools to a standard of attainment that is appropriate and for for purpose.

A bit like when the last government introduced choose & book for hospital operations. The dozy buggers thought people would like the idea of travelling far for a better service, when all they wanted was their local service to be as good....

Subject: RE: BS: Follow Jesus, not religion Andrew Sullivan
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 02 May 12 - 02:45 AM

Don, we also have the corroborating evidence of the inspectors.

The CofE schools do not need to cheat.
They are all oversubscribed anyway.

Subject: RE: BS: Follow Jesus, not religion Andrew Sullivan
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 01 May 12 - 06:16 PM

So could I.

Subject: RE: BS: Follow Jesus, not religion Andrew Sullivan
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 01 May 12 - 06:14 PM

""Don, I do not understand why it is divisive that some schools get better results than others.""

It depends on what proportion of their pupils are the high achievers of the affluent, mainly white, comfortably off parents who will fight scheme, move house or lie to get a place.

Back street kids with special needs, Asians with a language problem both Hindu and Muslim?

How good are their chances to get a place in your perfect SAT super schools. Not great I'd say.

And another point! S.A.Ts are the very last measure I would noise abroad as the prime indicator of school quality.

They are much more often an indicator of how far a school will go in cheating to improve its league position.

A much safer indicator is an assessment of ability by year 7 teachers, who are in a position to state with accuracy just how far most kids are from the SAT level they bring with them.

My son could right a book on that.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Follow Jesus, not religion Andrew Sullivan
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 01 May 12 - 09:17 AM

It did not have that effect on you.
So they do not indoctrinate, or even confirm in every case.
So, why would you ban these excellent schools that parents and children of all faiths and no faith want?

Subject: RE: BS: Follow Jesus, not religion Andrew Sullivan
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 01 May 12 - 09:05 AM

No, but sure as hell get their Christianity confirmed.

Subject: RE: BS: Follow Jesus, not religion Andrew Sullivan
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 01 May 12 - 06:29 AM

they are guilty of indoctrination.
Ever met someone who became a Christian as a result of attending CofE schools?
Ever even heard of anyone?

Me neither.

Subject: RE: BS: Follow Jesus, not religion Andrew Sullivan
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 01 May 12 - 06:25 AM

Don, I do not understand why it is divisive that some schools get better results than others.

Subject: RE: BS: Follow Jesus, not religion Andrew Sullivan
From: Penny S.
Date: 01 May 12 - 06:08 AM

I may have mentioned before that special needs (usually for behaviour reasons) children who started off at a local RC school on a London overspill estate tended to arrive at ours after exclusion.

Because of our well-deserved reputation for provision for special needs? Maybe. We continue to have good reports for added value, but not the sort of results other schools with fewer than a third special needs children.

You need to look at input as well as output.

Penny

Subject: RE: BS: Follow Jesus, not religion Andrew Sullivan
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 01 May 12 - 05:32 AM

""Almost two-thirds of the 268 schools which achieved "perfect" SATs results this summer were Anglican, Roman Catholic or Jewish schools.""

Nice for Christians and Jews (though I'll bet the Jews are in the minority here). Tends to exclude Muslims and Hindus, not to mention all the other variations, including non religious.

Nothing very divisive there then, eh?

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Follow Jesus, not religion Andrew Sullivan
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 01 May 12 - 05:17 AM

CofE faith schools.
We know they do not indoctrinate

Do they have lessons in which the existence of God is assumed? Do they make children say prayers or sing hymns? Do they tell children that the Bible is the truth? Do they organise harvest festivals and carol services which children attend? Do they have links with or visits from local vicars, etc.? If the answer to any or all those questions is yes, then they are guilty of indoctrination. Of telling children that myth is truth.

Subject: RE: BS: Follow Jesus, not religion Andrew Sullivan
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 01 May 12 - 04:19 AM

Thu, 3 Dec 2009
Faith schools dominate a new league table of England's best primary schools.
Almost two-thirds of the 268 schools which achieved "perfect" SATs results this summer were Anglican, Roman Catholic or Jewish schools.

Their prominence comes despite the fact that nationally they account for only one-third of the total number of schools.

The children at the 166 faith schools which were awarded "perfect" status attained at least the appropriate level for their age group in English, Maths and Science.

A 2008 survey showed that the majority of the population - including those who do not see themselves as Christian - agree that parents should be able to choose a state-run school for their child based on their own religious, moral or philosophical considerations. Two-thirds of parents (with children under 18) hold this opinion, consistent with the spirit of plurality in education which is protected by the European Convention on Human Rights.

A 2009 Guardian/ICM poll of 1,000 adults showed that "60% thought children benefited from a faith-based education, while 69% of those with school-age children supported a religious ethos at school".

Subject: RE: BS: Follow Jesus, not religion Andrew Sullivan
From: Musket
Date: 01 May 12 - 03:54 AM

Yes Keith it is.

Hence they have no place in a modern society.

(See earlier post)

A bloke in the pub reckons all "queers puffs and rag heads" should be castrated / deported whatever. If we gave him what he allowed.... He is entitled to his view, but society expects that politicians do not pander to every view of every potential voter. We see Bishops advising their flock that the government is wrong here, misguided there... No wonder politicians pander to old men in absurd costumes rather than real people.

As I said above, it isn't the doctrine and imaginary friend that works in some faith schools, it is disciple and parental support. You can get that without being reminded of the bigoted fairy at the bottom of the garden.

I got curious earlier so looked at a few attainment tables. It isn't quite the case that faith schools do better than rational ones, Keith. it just isn't..

Subject: RE: BS: Follow Jesus, not religion Andrew Sullivan
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 01 May 12 - 02:47 AM

CofE faith schools.
We know they do not indoctrinate, otherwise they would not be acceptable to atheists never mind Muslims.
We know they give an excellent education, because the inspectors tell us and because of the competition for places.
Parents like them.
Children like them.
That is why I think they should be allowed.
Steve and Ian, please remind us why you want them banned.
Is it just an irrational narrow minded prejudice?

Subject: RE: BS: Follow Jesus, not religion Andrew Sullivan
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 30 Apr 12 - 08:07 PM

""When I was a kid, I prayed and prayed to God for a bicycle.

Later I realised he doesn't work that way, so I stole one and prayed for him to forgive me.""

Quote from a favourite comedian. But it does kind of point up the way some religious people see their faith and exploit it.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Follow Jesus, not religion Andrew Sullivan
From: Desert Dancer
Date: 30 Apr 12 - 11:24 AM

If there's anyone left in the conversation who's still interested in "how" instead of "whether" re: Christianity, you might be interested in video of a conversation between Andrew Sullivan and Ross Douthat (NY Times columnist, religious conservative, and author of a recent book: "Bad Religion", presenting his argument that a loss of Christianity as a core set of values is what's wrong with the U.S.): Sullivan and Douthat debate Bad Religion.

I haven't watched the video, but I found this NYT review of Douthat's book interesting: review by Randall Ballmer. "Randall Balmer, an Episcopal priest and a professor of American religious history at Barnard College, is the author of a dozen books, including "Thy Kingdom Come" and "God in the White House.""

~ Becky in Tucson

Subject: RE: BS: Follow Jesus, not religion Andrew Sullivan
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 30 Apr 12 - 09:22 AM

Well, I would, in my Utopia, prevent any school from teaching children that God (or gods) is true and that we should worship him and ask him for things. No child would ever be taken to any church service, chant prayers or made to sit under a crucifix. My sole reason for that is that I think it's wrong that children are taught that myth is true. Schools should be about education, and that isn't education. I don't mind children being taught myths as long as it is clear that what they are being told is myth, and I think children should certainly be made to compare world religions and study their impact, past and present, on humanity. If you think that's prejudice, then I'm more than happy to be called prejudiced. As for choice, if you permit schools to select pupils on the basis of pushy parents, ability to move house, wealth, religion, feigned religion or anything else, you are giving those parents the choice they demand, but simultaneously you are impoverishing the schools which these motivated people are eschewing. I don't think it's right that a child should be given an advantage simply because his parents can do those things, just like I don't think it's right that the unfortunate kids of poorer or feckless parents should be put at even greater disadvantage by this blind application of market forces.

Subject: RE: BS: Follow Jesus, not religion Andrew Sullivan
From: Musket
Date: 30 Apr 12 - 08:22 AM

Must admit Keith, I'd also get rid of them. Although I'm not sure narrow mindedness or prejudice would form part of my rationale.

It can't be prejudice because the facts and figures are there for you to form an opinion.

It can't be narrow mindedness because that is one of the problems getting rid of them would begin to solve...

Equality is an interesting term and I use The Equality Act when assessing other public sector operations. It states that everybody can have their own beliefs, views, whatever. But when carrying out your employment duties, you cannot let your views influence your work or its impact on others. Teachers are bound by this so the many examples of applying a narrow minded doctrine when teaching, judging gay lifestyle, sexual equality and other religions by your own particular cult is, amongst other things, illegal.

But there again, I remain bemused by how successive governments put legislation in place then give a hundred and one byes to cults. Possibly because they sit in the Upper House, possibly because superstition is on the up not down so they are scared of votes?

I am also concerned that we need law and legislation to bring about common sense, as I deplore big government, but there you go.

The success of faith schools is based on discipline and parental support. If you remove the imaginary friend, you can still achieve this.

As an apprentice, I was told that a certain large machine, when it got too hot, had to be opened to cool down. This was a large job, taking over an hour to get all the flameproof flange bolts out. I was told that there was a prayer mat under the machine, and I had to get that out, kneel on it and bow three times, other wise the machine would not work still when I bolted it back up.

The only times it was still not working were, by coincidence, when I had't played silly buggers with a prayer mat (large heavy duty paper bag.)

By the same reckoning.........

Subject: RE: BS: Follow Jesus, not religion Andrew Sullivan
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 30 Apr 12 - 05:55 AM

All true, but a different issue.
CofE faith schools have a proven record of success, and non Christian parents compete for places becuse they provide what the parents want.

You would ban them because of your narrow minded prejudice.
How illiberal.

Subject: RE: BS: Follow Jesus, not religion Andrew Sullivan
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 30 Apr 12 - 05:12 AM

Well, Keith, the people who have least effective choice of school are the poorest who live in inner cities. They can't choose fee-paying schools, they can't choose faith schools with anything like the facility of richer/God-fearing/pretend God-fearing/downright pushy people, and now it seems they can't easily choose free schools either: in most cases, the numbers of pupils on free school meals admitted to free schools are way below the averages for all the other schools in the same areas. Good buzz-word, choice, but do note which particular wing of politicians is inclined to use it most.

Subject: RE: BS: Follow Jesus, not religion Andrew Sullivan
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 30 Apr 12 - 03:28 AM

You would deny people the schools that they want and choose because of your prejudice.
You know what's best for them.
Right Steve?

Subject: RE: BS: Follow Jesus, not religion Andrew Sullivan
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 29 Apr 12 - 02:41 PM

Steve, re do I support faith schools.
I do some, because they are so very popular with people of other and no faiths.

Hitler was popular. The Tories are popular. Thatcher won three elections, so she's popular. The Pope runs a billion Catholics, so he's popular. God almost certainly doesn't exist, but he's popular. Marie Le Pen just got 25% of the French vote, so she's popular. Simon Cowell is a multi-millionaire because he's popular. Ant and Dec are popular. Hirondelle wine was popular. Popularity trumps goodness, erudition and justice, eh, Keith?

Subject: RE: BS: Follow Jesus, not religion Andrew Sullivan
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 29 Apr 12 - 11:40 AM

The Apostles must have dead by the time their supposed scriptural accounts were written.
Mark's Gospel was probably first and written in 60s or 70s AD.
Matthew and Luke used his text and added their own material and interpretation.
Paul's Epistles were written even earlier.

Subject: RE: BS: Follow Jesus, not religion Andrew Sullivan
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 29 Apr 12 - 09:50 AM

Ian, I did not dismiss your concerns.
I share them.
My original post on the subject-

"Steve, re do I support faith schools.
I do some, because they are so very popular with people of other and no faiths.
CofE faith schools are open to all, are committed to informing pupils about all religions, and get excellent acedemic results.
What is not to support?"

Subject: RE: BS: Follow Jesus, not religion Andrew Sullivan
From: Musket
Date: 29 Apr 12 - 09:08 AM

A bit worried that Keith A of Hertford dismissed my concerns so quickly.

Perhaps this might help?

Faith schools doing what I thought they did

Like I said, they need stopping. Children need education, not indoctrination and coercion. Child abuse is child abuse, regardless of rigged league tables.

Subject: RE: BS: Follow Jesus, not religion Andrew Sullivan
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 29 Apr 12 - 07:06 AM

""Jesus might be a folkloric figure whose mythological presence served as a means of teaching how to live depending of course on how you "cherry pick" it.""

Or, of course, he might have been a real person who simply pissed off the authorities, because he was advancing commonsense views at odds with what both the Jewish and Roman leaders were promoting, and paid the ultimate price.

Neither you (for all your air of certainty) nor I know which!

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Follow Jesus, not religion Andrew Sullivan
From: Penny S.
Date: 29 Apr 12 - 05:21 AM

I don't really understand why cherry picking is regarded as wrong. Presented with your average bowl of cherries, some starling-pecked, some over-ripe, some frankly mouldy, anyone who doesn't pick out only the good ripe ones at the point of readiness for eating is an idiot.

Penny

Subject: RE: BS: Follow Jesus, not religion Andrew Sullivan
From: Don Firth
Date: 29 Apr 12 - 01:58 AM

As am I. I have met many self=proclaimed "Christians" that are anuthing BUT examples of what Christ (allegedly) taught.

They're give Christians a bad name.

Don Firth