BS: Police Brutality

Subject: RE: BS: Police Brutality
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 18 May 12 - 06:12 AM

Owen is exactly right.

May I also mention Liddle Towers - http://hansard.millbanksystems.com/commons/1977/dec/12/mr-liddle-towers.

who also screamed in pain all night as he lay in a police cell dying from his injuries.

Oh, and a woman I know who has never fully regained the use of her arm after suffering a similar armlock.

And was given a good kicking - after she had been rendered helpless - by a uniformed WPC - while two burly police officers watched at the cell door.

Cell door - yes, arrested for taking a photograph that she had been given express permission to take.


We could not do without the police, and some do a good job, but look around those you actually know or actually come into contact with. Most seem to have an attitude that they enjoy wielding authority, and that they value, indeed are excited by, physical force.

Subject: RE: BS: Police Brutality
From: Sandy Mc Lean
Date: 18 May 12 - 02:16 AM

Canada or Harper's police state's shame:
Amputee

Subject: RE: BS: Police Brutality
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 15 May 12 - 09:41 AM

okay Owen - in your ear, be it!

Subject: RE: BS: Police Brutality
From: Owen Woodson
Date: 15 May 12 - 07:59 AM

Chufty. That's what's worrying. He doesn't. He looks to me as he does this all the time and regards it as a perfectly normal part of the interview procedure. That may have been the case in Nazi Germany. Not here, thanks very much.

"You'll see countless disruptive uncooperative men & women being similarly restrained".

Strange. I live in Liverpool, a large and in parts a pretty violent city. Moreover, as a political activist of many years standing, I have seen a lot of arrests being carried out. I have seen arrestees being constrained in armlocks. I have never seen anyone have their arm wrenched up their back like that before.

And if the aim wasn't to inflict torture, (IE severe pain administered as a means of punishment, revenge, forcing information or a confession, or simply as an act of cruelty), why was the armlock applied? The guy asked for a chair after telling this pair that he was ill. When he was denied one he sat down on a ledge. He could perfectly well have given the desk sergeant his personal details from there.

Dislike of police authority? Not me brother. I'm quite happy with clearly demarcated police authority. But gratuitous brutality like this does not conform with any British police code I ever heard of.

Subject: RE: BS: Police Brutality
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 May 12 - 07:54 AM

"You'll see countless disruptive uncooperative men & women...."
So if the result of the POLICE IN-HOUSE ENQUIRY, which accepted that the action could be described as torture, is to be accepted, they did fit up those involved, possibly as a public relations move?
Why are people attempting to debunk the evidence of the film, which has been damned by the official enquiry?
.
"does it really look as though the fat desk cop is seriously over reacting in malicious anger ?"
No it doesn't - it looks like a routine event that he has handled many times - in fact, like something that could, and does happen "in every town high street thoughout the UK every weekend of the year"
Even moreso when you see that nobody is taking a blind bit of notice of the screams.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Police Brutality
From: GUEST,chufty
Date: 15 May 12 - 07:26 AM

The arm lock lasts about a short 20 seconds.
Now watch the video with sound switched off.
Without the emotive sound of blood curdling screams of agony
[genuine, or excessive pretence ????: debatable in absence of known facts of the situation]
does it really look as though the fat desk cop is seriously over reacting in malicious anger ?

You'll see countless disruptive uncooperative men & women being similarly restrained
for the safety of the public as much as for their own benefit
in every town high street thoughout the UK every weekend of the year.

Gotta try to remain objective, even if dislike of police authority is a standard default position.

Subject: RE: BS: Police Brutality
From: Owen Woodson
Date: 15 May 12 - 07:09 AM

Brendan, you're absolutely right, and my apologies for indulging in thread drift.

Irrespective of what happened outside, or what happened elsewhere under different circumstances, this man was ill and defenceless and was offering no threat to anyone in that station. Yet he was the victim of a savage, brutal and unprovoked attack. What's more(Big Al Whittle) there is no reason to suppose that he was even drunk.

That is it in a nutshell, except that the police are expected to abide by the law, not to break it whenever they think they can get away with it.

We need a police force without a doubt; one whose members do their jobs thoroughly, honestly, and without torturing suspects. If Sergeant Harvey and his ilk are all that stand between us and chaos, God help us.

Subject: RE: BS: Police Brutality
From: BrendanB
Date: 15 May 12 - 06:32 AM

I think that I must be missing something here. The thread began about the behaviour of some police officers mistreating an unarmed man in a police station. Now it seems that some people find this analogous to dealing with maniacs armed with guns or swords.
I would not presume to comment on how such dangerous people should be dealt with and I would not be inclined to question police action if such a person ended up dead or seriously wounded as a result of the police having to control him or her.
The two situations are not analogous. One has to do with an abuse of power by the police the other relates to the need for the police to sometimes HAVING to use extreme methods to deal with a situation. If we are, as I hope we are, a civilised society then we must ensure that the vast majority of decent police officers are not let down or undermined by a few who don't deserve to wear the uniform.

Subject: RE: BS: Police Brutality
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 May 12 - 02:37 AM

"Most likely a Police Officer who did not go along with what happened."
Or one who wanted to make a few quid from the local press.
Or maybe a drinking chum of 'Rupe the Scoop' - let's not forget the boys in blue at the top of the tree.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2011/oct/28/deaths-in-police-custody
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Police Brutality
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 15 May 12 - 01:37 AM

'Who "leaked" the recording?? -'

I don't know. But I hope he wakes up one morning with the drunk pissing in his ear.

Subject: RE: BS: Police Brutality
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 15 May 12 - 01:35 AM

"Had she flattened the subject, handcuffed him, and then cautioned him...." I would have described that as fairly normal police procedure when handling a dangerous suspect; EG, the man with the sword in the non-residential area of Liverpool. But once the suspect has been suitably restrained, that should be an end."

(My emboldening and underlining there)

So Owen, you're clearly an expert in un-armed combat - how, precisely, would an un-armed policeman "take down" (whatever the fuck that means) a mentally-unstable and out-of-control man who is wielding a sword, without himself becoming a casualty or, worse, a murder statistic?

Subject: RE: BS: Police Brutality
From: GUEST,Teribus
Date: 15 May 12 - 12:48 AM

One aspect of this incident I have not seen mentioned or addressed in this thread:

1: Incident took place inside a Police Station.

2: The incident was covered by the CCTV system inside the Police Station.

3: Logical question would be - Who "leaked" the recording?? - Must have been someone with access - Most likely a Police Officer who did not go along with what happened.

Subject: RE: BS: Police Brutality
From: Owen Woodson
Date: 14 May 12 - 04:31 PM

I'm not on the side of the bloke with the sword (samurai sword? who said anything about it being a samurai sword?). I merely want to see justice and fair play. And a bunch of professional police officers could have taken one lone nutter down without killing him.

Ian Tomlinson murdered? The word I used was killed, and I stand by that. To be precise, he got caught up in a demonstration in which he had no part, when he was hit by a baton and knocked to the ground. That is not murder, although I think it could be justifiably called manslaughter.

Does PC Simon Harwood regret the incident? Very likely. His trial comes up next month.

"Had she flattened the subject, handcuffed him, and then cautioned him...." I would have described that as fairly normal police procedure when handling a dangerous suspect; EG, the man with the sword in the non-residential area of Liverpool. But once the suspect has been suitably restrained, that should be an end.

Look, nobody expects the police to lay their lives on the line, especially when they're dealing with vicious and violent individuals. But there are procedures and there is thuggery. PC Harwood was in no danger from Ian Tomlinson and Sergeant Harvey was in no danger from David Healer.

But it turns out from tonight's Northern Echo that David Healer was in danger from Sergeant Harvey. It turns out in fact that Healer is an angina sufferer. Was Harvey aware of this before he carried out this brutal assault? I suspect he was. Listen to the audio right after Healer's arm doesn't quite snap off.

BTW. someone asked earlier on whether either of the officers involved were disciplined for this act of torture, as the Independent Police Complaints Commission described. Apparently not. They have merely been transferred to "other duties" within the same police force.

I do not like thugs, in uniform or out of it. And I do not expect trained police officers to act like thugs, especially when they are dealing with a sick individual.

Subject: RE: BS: Police Brutality
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 14 May 12 - 01:01 PM

I think we get the picture.


You're on the side of the bloke waving a samurai sword around, or collapsing all over the police statio (having done something serious enough to get arrested).

personally, I side with the poor sod who has somehow to curtail their activities.

Subject: RE: BS: Police Brutality
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 14 May 12 - 01:00 PM

Me too Owen, but I usually want to know more about what led to such events before jumping in with a judgement, just as you would want to know more before judging the prisoner.

Don T.

PS.

1. Ian Tomlinson was not murdered, he was pushed over (wrong I know, but no intent to do serious harm, let alone kill) and I'm sure the officer concerned regrets having done that.

2. The young WPC didn't get the chance to defend herself precisely because she went in too soft. Had she flattened the subject, handcuffed him, and then cautioned him, he would have had no chance to stab her to death. Her name was W.P.C. Nina McKay.

3. Having seen at first hand the damage a sword can do (it's not like the movies), I would consider armed intervention amply justified in the case you cited.

Police officers are not paid to wantonly risk life and limb, of themselves or any member of the public, and the officer who gave the order will have given due consideration to all the circumstances. Had a member of the public, or an officer, been killed or seriously injured, he would have had to justify his inaction.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Police Brutality
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 14 May 12 - 12:42 PM

Contrary to popular belief , there is no way of shooting someone witha firearm and being completely sure it will not kill them. Catching a bullet is very traumatic. Shooting someone in the leg is a great way to kill them - there is a big artery in the leg. If that disintegrates, you won't be around too long.

people shot with a firearm are almost certain to be very ill afterwards

Subject: RE: BS: Police Brutality
From: Owen Woodson
Date: 14 May 12 - 11:49 AM

Don,

I presume you are referring to an actual incident, and one which involved the death of a police officer in the course of trying to make an arrest. If so, nobody is denying the right of the police to take defensive action.

However, the matter under discussion took place in a police station. The man must have been unarmed because, if he had been carrying a weapon, it would have been taken from him at the scene of the crime. Ipso facto, neither the arm breaking desk sergeant, nor his colleagues, were in any danger from this suspect whatsoever. The desk sergeant in question behaved the way that he did out of sheer brutality, and because he was too lazy to do his job in accordance with the prescribed procedure.

BTW 1., the suspect is aged 48 and owns a DIY store. He doesn't sound your typical "I'm here for trouble" scallywag to me.

BTW 2. Before you start sounding off about police being killed in the line of duty, you might want to consider the following.

Some years ago, a man in Liverpool lost it completely. He began waving an admittedly very nasty looking sword and mouthing off to no-one in particular. A sizeable contingent of armed police surrounded this guy and, on the orders of a superior officer, they shot him dead.

This happened in a deserted non-residential part of Liverpool (I know it extremely well) where there is no-one living for at least half a mile in any direction. Hence there was no danger to anyone passing by.

The officer's comment? "I didn't want my men exposed to any danger". Jesus suffering Christ. What are they paid for?

Was this officer saying that a contingent of armed, and armoured, police couldn't have taken down one lone nutter without killing him? If they had to shoot, couldn't they at least have shot him in the leg? That would have disabled him very effectively, with no danger being posed to the police, or to non-existent passers by.

BTW 3? Oh yes, Ian Tomlinson. Newspaper seller who was killed by the police because he happened to be in the wrong place at the wrong time.

I refuse point blank to class all police as villains, thugs and murderers, just I refuse to condemn all Muslims because of the actions of a handful of Asian paedophiles in Rochdale.

Nonetheless, irrespective of how big a minority the rotten apples in the police barrel may be, they still make me sick.

Subject: RE: BS: Police Brutality
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 14 May 12 - 11:05 AM

""Yes, and surely the point is that no one should allow themselves to be dragged down to the level of those scum by behaving in the same way as they do.""

It's not all that long ago that a young, idealistic, W.P.C. tried to make a calm and gentle arrest of a suspect.

Her family are still grieving for her death, and will be for the rest of their lives.

Her killer will be walking the streets again in just a few more years.

Idealism is great, but armlocks prevent more damage.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Police Brutality
From: GUEST,Chufty
Date: 14 May 12 - 10:41 AM

Whether or not the arm hold was justifiable in the circumstances;
should we not be equally concerned that serving police officers
are so clearly verging on the obese and unfit ?

Subject: RE: BS: Police Brutality
From: Owen Woodson
Date: 14 May 12 - 10:25 AM

According to the news media they weren't. Fined and ordered to pay compensation and that was it. They should have ben thrown off the force and they weren't.

Subject: RE: BS: Police Brutality
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 14 May 12 - 08:56 AM

Then I hope that the officers responsible were disciplined as appropriate.

Subject: RE: BS: Police Brutality
From: BrendanB
Date: 14 May 12 - 08:30 AM

"when you consider the uncivilised scum the police have to deal with from time to time"

Yes, and surely the point is that no one should allow themselves to be dragged down to the level of those scum by behaving in the same way as they do. I want to believe that our police are better than that. As I said in an earlier post my experience with Victim Support led me into contact with a lot of police officers and, although I would not wish to claim to speak for them, My guess is that most of them would condemn this behaviour. Police are trained to deal with recalcitrant and violent people, what we saw on the video was just lazy and let down the police service as whole. This was acknowledged by a spokesman from Durham Constabulary last Friday. I am simply agreeing with that senior policeman, who I suspect knows better than you or I Al.

Subject: RE: BS: Police Brutality
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 14 May 12 - 07:35 AM

Please ...Alan, or Al...Mr Whittle sounds like I work in a bank.

I don't think you should lose any rights when you go into a police station. I think the cops in that video had a very clear idea of what they were dealing with. I'm not sure that you do.

Subject: RE: BS: Police Brutality
From: Stu
Date: 14 May 12 - 06:10 AM

"When you consider the uncivilised scum the police are required to deal with from time to time!!!"

Good point, but dealing with thieving and corrupt politicians, amoral journalists and members of the Met was something they signed up for when they took the job.

Subject: RE: BS: Police Brutality
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 14 May 12 - 05:42 AM

When you consider the uncivilised scum the police are required to deal with from time to time!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Police Brutality
From: BrendanB
Date: 14 May 12 - 05:40 AM

I would never describe idealism as puerile. I have no doubt that many police officers have a selfless desire to serve their communities. My problem with the position taken by Mr Whittle is that he appears to believe that anyone taken into a police station should give up all claim to any human rights.
The role of the police is to protect our civilised society, to suggest that in pursuing that end they should behave in an uncivilised way seems bizarre.
As an aside, calling posters who disagree with you eejit and the like simply calls into question your ability to debate in an adult (i.e. non puerile) manner.

Subject: RE: BS: Police Brutality
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 14 May 12 - 04:25 AM

Yes, but you weren't there. Richard. Neither was I. These guys do this stuff for a living and they have to know when they are being buggered about, and you can bet your life - they know what that can develop into. They're probably in a better place to judge than you and me. Work in these situations and you get a certain expertise at sussing people out.

Me and you, we'd have given him a chair let him pretend to be unconscious and get buggered about from arseholes to breakfast time.

Subject: RE: BS: Police Brutality
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 14 May 12 - 01:27 AM

I watched the video and saw and heard absolutely nothing to justify the vicious armlock. From the very start, the police attitude was overbearing and inapproprIate - iT started "WHO TOLD YOU YOU COULD SIT DOWN".

Subject: RE: BS: Police Brutality
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 13 May 12 - 09:41 PM

Its called dedication. A belief that you can make a difference by doing an important job. Not perfectly, but as well as you can manage to do it.

Its that sort of puerile idealism that keeps the boat of scociety afloat - despite eejits like yourself facilitating and excusing the deranged loonies kicking holes in the hull of our fragile craft.

Subject: RE: BS: Police Brutality
From: BrendanB
Date: 13 May 12 - 05:32 PM

Well done Mr Whittle, you have moved from the fatuous to the puerile in a single bound. You appear to be unable to recognise that not only might a policeman break the law but that the police service might wrongly condone such behaviour. I have had reason to be grateful to the police in the past but that does not require me to believe that they can do whatever they like because they have got such a tough job, anymore than a doctor should be allowed to get away with negligence. Everyone who works for the police does so voluntarily, if the job was so awful the rate of resignations would be extremely high - my understanding is that that is not the case. Most of the policemen and women that I met in the course of my career and my work with Victim Support loved their job. I can see no evidence of police bashing on this thread - but I can see you have your head firmly in the sand.

Subject: RE: BS: Police Brutality
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 13 May 12 - 03:44 PM

The arm at no time becomes detached from his body.....

Subject: RE: BS: Police Brutality
From: Owen Woodson
Date: 13 May 12 - 12:49 PM

This is magic. So the desk sergeant is having a bad night and he's feeling overrun, and that gives him the right to twist some poor buggar's arm off? I must remember that the next time I'm having a bad day, or night.

"The guy has indulged in bad, possibly dangerous behaviour. perhaps he has even uttered racist comments........."

I don't know how many times I have to say this. What the guy has or hasn't done has no bearing on the way he was treated. The appropriate punishment for bad behaviour, racist comments or whatever is up to the courts to decide. Have you never heard of the phrase "Innocent until proven guilty"?. Or would you prefer to live in the sort of banana republic where such behaviour by the forces of law and order is considered acceptable?

BTW. His arm wasn't twisted up his back because of what he had done outside. It was twisted up his back because the guy didn't feel well, and refused to co-operate until he was given a chair. What the hell was wrong with giving him a chair, for God's sake.

Subject: RE: BS: Police Brutality
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 13 May 12 - 12:46 PM

Actually the police do a jolly fine job considering all the limitations placed upon them by politically correct idiots.

Subject: RE: BS: Police Brutality
From: Little Hawk
Date: 13 May 12 - 11:21 AM

Anything that anyone can say about this subject, positive or negative, is absolutely true in some circumstances...while not true in others.

So you're all right...part of the time. And you're all "wrong"...if you simply insist on objecting to what another one is focusing on, because it isn't what you want to focus on.

And you're wasting your time fighting over it.

And alienating each other.

And probably putting yourselves in a pretty bad mood by doing so.

What will this gain you?

I think that's all I really need to say on this thread. I could say it about any number of other contentious threads here. It's one great big waste of your time, folks. In a month you'll have forgotten about it, and you'll be bickering about something else, I expect. It could be called the "arguing addiction". Maybe someone should start a new 12-step program (AAA) to help people get over it.

Bye bye.

Subject: RE: BS: Police Brutality
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 13 May 12 - 07:48 AM

Well I'm not. What do you think police work is.....Inspector Morse doing crosswords, Sherlock and his magnifying glass?

The scene is similar to any you could see in any police station from Beijing to Bognor - every saturday night.

The guy has indulged in bad, possibly dangerous behaviour. perhaps he has even uttered racist comments. not just the copsthat do that, you know.

The phone calls are lining up - the switchboard is jammed with members of the public whining that the police are doing nothing about this idiots mates -who are doing the same stuff a hundred yards further down the road. And now this guy is dragging the process out by dicking about, and stopping them getting on with their work.

Meanwhile th rapes, domestics, murders, robberies goes on - and as luck would have it there are no members of the dogooder commission there to sort any of it out. It comes down to the much maligned copper.

Worth noting that the Yorkshire Ripper was only detained against the objections of his last intended victim - who was moaning about police brutality.

Subject: RE: BS: Police Brutality
From: Owen Woodson
Date: 13 May 12 - 07:14 AM

Nobody that I'm aware of is indulging in police bashing rants on this thread. As I've said once already, I, and I presume most other contributors to this thread, am not looking to tar the entire police force with the one brush.

I am though extremely concerned at the behaviour of two members of the police in this instance and any others like it.

Subject: RE: BS: Police Brutality
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 May 12 - 07:11 AM

"Just because we don't all shriek our hatred of all authority"
Nobody does they - but there are signs of kneejerk (sometimes to the point of hysteria) from some here whenever the establishment is challenged in any way - my "know-it-all friend"
Police - bashing rants - I suppose I'm wasing my time again to ask for examples!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Police Brutality
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 13 May 12 - 06:43 AM

""How far does one of these thugs have to go to draw even a "tut-tut" out of you fellers?""

Just because we don't all shriek our hatred of all authority (and specifically any British law enforcement or military) from the rooftops, don't assume that we don't find abuse totally unacceptable and want abusers removed from their posts.

It's more the case that we can't make ourselves heard over the police bashing rants which have become your trademark.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Police Brutality
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 May 12 - 06:31 AM

"But aren't you being predjudiced."
And aren't you being somewhat blinkered about all this.
Wot Owen just said - none of what you have cited has the slightest to do with the matter in hand, a station sergeant torturing a suspect THERE FOR THE WORLD TO SEE AND ACCEPTED BY THE (presumably) IN-HOUSE ENQUIRY INTO THE AFFAIR (or did they fit their buddies up - which opens up a whole new can of worms).
Teachers have a hard job in today's education system - sometimes just as difficult as that of the police - would that justify one of them kicking the shit out of an unruly pupil?
Can't help but notice that the apologists here have carefully skated around all the other cases of police behaviour presented here.
How far does one of these thugs have to go to draw even a "tut-tut" out of you fellers?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Police Brutality
From: Owen Woodson
Date: 13 May 12 - 06:13 AM

Al, this really is not on. I've no idea who the guy was or what his behaviour was prior to the arm twisting, or even why he was arrested. What I do know is that these matters are irrelevant to the present issue. The police are trained, and paid, to apply professional standards under all circumstances and to uphold the law. They are not paid or trained to illegally virtually wrench a suspect's arm off. And in case you had forgotten, all the guy did was ask for a chair.

What's more, over and above the offence he was arrested for, if his behaviour during arrest and detention consituted further breaches of the law, then thoe further breaches should have been dealt with as part of due process. This was an act of blatant brutality, nothing more and nothing less.

I've never been to a football match in my life, but I'm well aware that spitting at someone is an offence. I have though been on a great many demonstrations in my life. I have never seen anyone spit at a police officer, but I can tell you now that anyone so doing would be arrested on the spot and charged with assault.

Subject: RE: BS: Police Brutality
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 13 May 12 - 05:31 AM

Racism and all kinds of predjudice is always with us. And of course its not to be tolerated.

But aren't you being predjudiced.

After all we are only seeing the closing chapter of a story which can only have started with one of the below

1) someone using threatening and abusive behaviour
2) someone assulting someone else
3) destroying someone else's property
4) getting behind the wheel of a car and lilling , injuring, and endangering other people

You do that stuff, you deserve a bad back!

Policemen and their families go through watching their men and womenfolk go out every night knowing they willl be abused, spat at, threatened with knives and bottles (by gentlemen and ladies like theone in the film) possibbly shot at, possibly killed.

A couple of policeladies did a little talk at one of the schools I was doing supply at. I was horrified by what was the condition of their service. they had two unforms - one hangingh in the shed - the onethey used when shepherding afootball crowd - always soaked in spit. then off to the cleaners.

They constantly had to be changing their phone numbers. People harassed and attacked their dogs and their children - just matters of course.

Rather like teaching - I wouldn't give a moments consideration to any committee - who had never done the job at the sharp end and said they knew what they were talking about.

Subject: RE: BS: Police Brutality
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 May 12 - 03:28 AM

"it seemed to concentrate his attention."
Yeah sure - I wonder how many times that one has been used throughout history - along with "he accidently fell down stairs!!"
"Show a bit of gratitude for godsake."
These people - don't know how many of them there are - are a disgrace to their uniform and they shame those of their collegues who don't behave the way they do.
I saw some of the behaviour up close and ugly and was subject to it myself a couple of times because of the people we chose to work with.
Perhaps you might ask Stephen Lawrence's parents to "Show a bit of gratitude"(or was the Macpherson report, which found them, as an organisation, "institutionally racist" a work of fiction) a situation which hasn't changed radically over the last 20 years.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2012/jan/06/stephen-lawrence-verdict-police-racism
Please don't insult our intelligence, as the man just said.
"An equally possible explanation"
There is no explanation for twisting a man's arm up his back until he screams in agony; nor is there one for a station full of police ignoring those screams (real or feigned) - transfer the situation to a school or a hospital - or any workplace, and tell us that nobody would take notice there.
I understand that the enquiry into the incident found those concerned guilty (and administered a slap on the wrist in the shape of £100 in compenstion to the victim, who intends to pursue a claim for back injury) - "Their attack was condemned as a form of torture by the Independent Police Complaints Commission (IPCC)".
Was that a work of fiction too?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Police Brutality
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 12 May 12 - 08:00 PM

Personally, I'd give them a medal for doing a job I wouldn't touch with a barge pole.

I really don't get it. You guys - you all sleep sound in your beds because you know these guys protect your homes and property.

Its a shit job. Like rat catching - but someone's got to do it. They obviously are constantly in contact with the kind of people that the rest of us cross the road to avoid.

Show a bit of gratitude for godsake.

Subject: RE: BS: Police Brutality
From: gnu
Date: 12 May 12 - 07:44 PM

Yeah, I got it. He will be punished, I assume. That doesn't mean all police are bad apples. That's Megan's point. A part of my point is, we don't know exactly what happened in any particular case. That's why we have a judicial system and not mob rule. Hanging parties are, hopefully, a thing of the past.

In any case, this thread is on a spiral to... gnightgnu.

Subject: RE: BS: Police Brutality
From: Jack Campin
Date: 12 May 12 - 06:39 PM

Meanwhile in Georgia, USA:

http://snipr.com/23hgf3w

Get that? The force in question says kicking pregnant women in the stomach is within their guidelines.

Subject: RE: BS: Police Brutality
From: gnu
Date: 12 May 12 - 05:48 PM

So, can we say, it all comes down to Megan's post? Each case tried on it's own merits.

And, can we stop taking snippets of videos out of context? (Please read my first post.) People who weren't there MAY not know the whole story.

My view is this... police are human and they don't want to face physical harm but they are willing to do so to protect the public from criminals and violence. That is WHY we have police. If SOME police abuse their power, take em out. But, as Megan said, don't take em all out... who will protect the public?

I can't see how anyone can argue against that.

Subject: RE: BS: Police Brutality
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 12 May 12 - 05:46 PM

""an obviously incapacitated prisoner""

Possibly incapacitated Jim. Please don't insult our intelligence by telling us you are the only person in the Western World who has never seen or heard of a prisoner resisting by refusing to stand.

An equally possible explanation, but that wouldn't suit your anti-authority agenda, so you ignore it.

Until you can present a semblance of balanced thought and speech you would be well advised to keep that mouth closed.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Police Brutality
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 12 May 12 - 05:26 PM

well the officers had the privilege of arresting this geezer. they could presumably make an assessment of whether he was ill/devoid of faculties or merely buggering them about and being uncooperative. Something which you can't. And have you ever done the job?

probably on a busy night with the phone jumping off the wall with complaints from the public being inconvenienced by other people suffering from the results of the nation's favourite drug of choice.

anyway - say what you want about the armlock - it seemed to concentrate his attention.

Subject: RE: BS: Police Brutality
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 May 12 - 05:21 PM

"Their job is a nightmare. "
Quite often because they choose to make it so - I still have a vivid picure of them waving their pay packets at striking miners who had been out of work for many months - not for a pay rise, but to defend their jobs from Countess Thatcherella's axe.
- not to mention this particular hero:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/southyorkshire/content/articles/2009/03/02/lesley_boulton_orgreave_photo_feature.shtml
One more tale.
In the early 80s a group of Travellers, protesting at the fact that most of the London borough's were ignoring their legal obligation to provide sites, moved onto Mitcham Common in SW London.
I was working with a man at the time who (after several pints) boasted that his brother in law (who lived adjacent to the Common) was planning, with a few neighbours, to firebomb the site (2 caravans, both containing large families).
I reported the matter to our local police, but knowing their reputation as far as Travellers were concerned, I also contacted a Gypsy Council member and told him what was planned.
The Gypsy Council members mounted a protective guard on the Common but, as I expected, the police did nothing about the planned attack (which was called off shortly afterwards anyway, possibly because I had made it known to the would-be arsonist that they were sussed by both the Travellers and the police).
Three weeks later I recieved a visit from our local boys in blue who wanted to know why we had been associating with "Gyppos".
Apparently my knowing these people was more important than protecting the men, women and children on the Common.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Police Brutality
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 12 May 12 - 04:04 PM

I take on board the views expressed here. I find the video appalling. But as I have no personal experience of the Police except that related to me by many prisoners, I have to reserve judgment. I didn't say the Police were 'pussy cats', I said this was an epithet given them by prisoners while under arrest and in their custody. I was merely reporting views expressed to me by them (for what they are worth) to show that there are apparently many good and benevolent officers around. To put a counter view, (which does not exonerate inhumane treatment by any means) the Police, for example in Norwich, put up with dreadful situations and behaviour such as kicking, biting, spitting, sudden drawing of knives, abuse of every sort, throwing of excrement, and have to enter houses where the entire family (and neighbours) scream abuse, punch and kick. They search people and risk getting pricked by contaminated needles, they get bitten by savage dogs etc etc etc. Their job is a nightmare. But of course I don't condone brutality, it's indefensible.