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BS: Can we afford Democracy?
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Subject: BS: Can we afford Democracy? From: dick greenhaus Date: 02 Jun 12 - 12:45 PM One of the most shocking (and most radical)state government actions in recent years IMO,is Michigan's appointment of city managers to run the local governments of financially troubled cities. This action allows a single non-elected manager to disenfranchise local voters, overrule elected officials, void contracts and pensions, and generally act as an unhindered dictator. And yet nobody (except for some liberal cable TV talk shows) seems to even mention it. What gives? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Can we afford Democracy? From: gnu Date: 02 Jun 12 - 12:51 PM "city managers" are simply spies for the state government. They report poor management, graft, whatever. They don't actually "run" the show... they police it. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Can we afford Democracy? From: Little Hawk Date: 02 Jun 12 - 12:53 PM That's very odd. I would like to add that, yes, we can afford democracy, but we cannot afford a chronic addiction to fighting wars in distant places. However, that's another subject. It sounds like big business has become the de facto ruler of Michigan, as well as of the United States Congress. They have forgotten that money was created to serve the people, not the other way around. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Can we afford Democracy? From: Q (Frank Staplin) Date: 02 Jun 12 - 01:46 PM gnu, your interpretation holds for Canada, but not for what is happening in Michigan. This excerpted from New York Times: Benton Harbor, Michigan, concerning city's elected commissioners" "But as of this month, they (the commissioners) are literally powerless, and hold no authority to make any decisions. Not even on potholes. "The city is now run by Joseph L. Harris, an accountant and auditor from miles away, one of a small cadre of "emergency managers" dispatched like firefighters by the state to put out financial blazes in Michigan's most troubled cities. ..... "Mr. Harris has been handed sweeping new powers under recent state legislation that emergency managers like him say was needed to remedy dire situations. ....... "Michigan's state-appointed emergency managers do have the authority to set adide union contracts, giving the state [Republican administration] in the eyes of some, the opportunity to crush any localunion deals in the name of budget repair." .............. "Only four entities in Michigan, including Detroit's public school system, currently are deemed distressed enough to require oversight by emergency managers. But some economists predict those ranks will grow, given cuts in aid from tje state and stagnant tax revenues." http://www.nytimes.com/2011/04/27/us/27michigan.html?pagewanted=all article by Monica Davey, published April 26, 2011. Dick Grenhaus is rightly concerned about this form of "dictator" rule. What will happen to Detroit's troubled public school system under emergency management? The administrations of other states, like Indiana, have suggested similar takeovers. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Can we afford Democracy? From: Crowhugger Date: 02 Jun 12 - 02:10 PM I wish I could identify the root problem and how to fix it. Dick, you've posed a tough one. That sort of disengagement is growing in Canada too and I wouldn't be surprised if it is growing in some form or another in all the other states. As another example of the degree of disengagement from the true essence of life--doing things, not just sponging up endless programming or tedium offered by others--I know more and more people who make a living walking dogs for people who don't turn off their computer or TV to go walk their own pets. One thing I'm sure of: We can't afford not to have democracy. The other day I obtained a meeting on short notice with local civic staff where we were to share information on a plan for recreation areas, a plan that so far fails to meet the needs of a huge contingent of users of the space. I couldn't find anyone with a vested interest in the same issues who would or could rearrange their schedule to attend with me. (These are people who are typically available to do things during the daytime.) Finally a friend came along simply because she's a friend and I asked her; I wanted a witness in case something was said on which I needed another perspective. Lovely that a friend does that for me, but depressing that people with a vested interested don't do it for themselves and each other. [sigh] |
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Subject: RE: BS: Can we afford Democracy? From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity Date: 02 Jun 12 - 03:44 PM Dick Greenhaus: "One of the most shocking (and most radical)state government actions in recent years IMO,is Michigan's appointment of city managers to run the local governments of financially troubled cities. This action allows a single non-elected manager to disenfranchise local voters, overrule elected officials.... " Democracy we can EASILY afford. However, what you described is NOT Democracy. The same 'model' is used for the federal government's use of appointed 'czars', or regulatory department heads. This is primarily a tactic to avoid making those oppressive and controlling decisions, of which there is NO accountability! The same model is in place for our 'Federal Reserve', hence, because they, in conjunction with 'special interests' dictate every notion that they come up with, to further THEIR agendas, while leaving us to pay the bill...WITH INTEREST!...and that includes a lot of 'pet' social programs' and 'social engineering'....to accommodate them...though it is 'sold' to us as either 'patriotic', 'progressive', 'liberal', or 'conservative'! Leaving us alone, without their meddling, would be a far MORE productive, and profitable way for everyone concerned......unless they FEAR of losing control of their dominance! ....and the musical version of what I just posted....... Regards, GfS |
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Subject: RE: BS: Can we afford Democracy? From: dick greenhaus Date: 02 Jun 12 - 06:02 PM I'm not the one who thinks we can't afford Democracy. I'm also not the governor of Michigan. What I find especially troubling is the aklmost-complete lack of coverage of this outrage in the mass media. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Can we afford Democracy? From: dick greenhaus Date: 02 Jun 12 - 06:12 PM Fr'instance: Don Weatherspoon's recent edict declaring the end of the Muskegon Heights public school system and the start of a charter school entity shocked believers in democracy. This emergency manager made the decision to lay off all of the teachers and staff and told them to reapply for a limited number of jobs. Weatherspoon closed all of the schools but three, and dissolved all contracts and union agreements. This abuse of power was granted to him by Republican legislators in the state House and Senate and Gov. Rick Snyder. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Can we afford Democracy? From: Bobert Date: 02 Jun 12 - 06:34 PM What is going on in Michigan is totalitarianism... The state government gets to pick and choose which local governments it wants to occupy... It is tyranny... B~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Can we afford Democracy? From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity Date: 02 Jun 12 - 06:55 PM **rolls eyes** GfS |
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Subject: RE: BS: Can we afford Democracy? From: Amos Date: 02 Jun 12 - 07:30 PM It makes you wonder what the nature of a city is, in Michigan, anyway; how does the State acquire the right to wholly bypass and ignore local government? Can it do this to counties, as well? Has anyone studied the fundamentals of these levels? A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Can we afford Democracy? From: Bobert Date: 02 Jun 12 - 07:44 PM How can they do it Amos??? It's called "Republicans"... Republicans are going for broke... No compromise... Just their way or the highway... Rig elections... Occupy cities... Bust unions... Wahtever it take to impose their views on everyone else... The American taliban...That's how it happened in Michigan... B~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Can we afford Democracy? From: Crowhugger Date: 02 Jun 12 - 07:54 PM I like Amos' question--it would help with understanding the whole picture to understand the mechanism that allows or triggers such an intervention. Ontario municipalities exist solely at the pleasure of the provincial legislature, so the provincial gov't can un-exist any township, town, city, regional municipality etc. at any time for any reason that the legislature deems adequate. But I don't know if there is a mechanism to replace elected mayor & council with an appointed person or body. I would bet there is. I've only been aware of this sort of takeover here of an occasional hospital or Community Care Access Centre (the entity that manages home care, retirement & nursing home waiting lists, school medical supports etc.). In the 2 or 3 cases I can think of, arrival of such a manager marked the beginning of a swift end to media coverage and letters to the editor. Before the appointment was a significant period of problems or serious complaints brought to light by either honest investigative journalists or "gotcha" journalists--couldn't say for sure which. But once the manager was in place, the media & public reaction here suggests to me that people thought it was a good solution. Or their attention span was all used up. But that is more and more the case with every issue--potholes, gun violence, pension restructuring, tax policy, etc. Often it does seem to be "gotcha" journalists working hard to prop up dwindling circulation numbers, or self-promotting bloggers, so much so that I honestly don't know where to look these days for actual public discourse on public/civic issues. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Can we afford Democracy? From: Bobert Date: 02 Jun 12 - 08:01 PM Republican governor and Republican state house is a formula for corruption unlike anything seen since the 1890s in America... B~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Can we afford Democracy? From: catspaw49 Date: 02 Jun 12 - 08:09 PM The only regular media coverage that I get is as a regular viewer of Rachel Maddow, it is an ongoing story which she revisits quite often. I think this clip will explain it all. This one aired back in March and the story has been updated at least once every week or two since then. I LOVE RACHEL!!!! Rachel tells it all...... Spaw |
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Subject: RE: BS: Can we afford Democracy? From: catspaw49 Date: 02 Jun 12 - 08:22 PM MORE...... Repubs gone mad in Michigan |
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Subject: RE: BS: Can we afford Democracy? From: Bobert Date: 02 Jun 12 - 08:26 PM Like you, I am a Maddow'r, Spawz... Yup, she's been on top of this going way back... I mean, if folks were told that something like this would occur in the US of A 10 years ago there wouldn't be 1 in a 100 who would believe it... Believe it, folks... What we are witnessing is the Republicans last push to wipe out the New Deal and turn American into their own Ayn Rand Somalia... B~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Can we afford Democracy? From: catspaw49 Date: 02 Jun 12 - 08:27 PM Rachel on Benton Harbor, Part One Benton Harbor,pt. 2 |
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Subject: RE: BS: Can we afford Democracy? From: GUEST,Guest from sanity Date: 02 Jun 12 - 09:23 PM Somehow you guys missed the point, while stumbling over yourselves to play the blame game, and point fingers...across the division: Dick Greenhaus: "One of the most shocking (and most radical)state government actions in recent years IMO,is Michigan's appointment of city managers to run the local governments of financially troubled cities. This action allows a single non-elected manager to disenfranchise local voters, overrule elected officials.... " Democracy we can EASILY afford. However, what you described is NOT Democracy. The same 'model' is used for the federal government's use of appointed 'czars', or regulatory department heads. This is primarily a tactic to avoid making those oppressive and controlling decisions, of which there is NO accountability! ....and the musical version of what I just posted....... GfS The same model is in place for our 'Federal Reserve', hence, because they, in conjunction with 'special interests' dictate every notion that they come up with, to further THEIR agendas, while leaving us to pay the bill...WITH INTEREST!...and that includes a lot of 'pet' social programs' and 'social engineering'....to accommodate them...though it is 'sold' to us as either 'patriotic', 'progressive', 'liberal', or 'conservative'! Leaving us alone, without their meddling, would be a far MORE productive, and profitable way for everyone concerned......unless they FEAR of losing control of their dominance! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Can we afford Democracy? From: Bobert Date: 02 Jun 12 - 09:30 PM Absolute tin foil reasoning... No, well beyond it... (((Sigh))) Yup... Truly the GUEST from Insanity... You need help... Serious... B~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Can we afford Democracy? From: catspaw49 Date: 02 Jun 12 - 09:43 PM More like "Inanity"....................... Spaw |
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Subject: RE: BS: Can we afford Democracy? From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity Date: 02 Jun 12 - 10:04 PM Ahhh....Is that the best you could conjure up, because you can't live up to your own double standards???..(MP) Why is it wrong locally, but OK in the federal government?? Maybe the 'controllers' are NOT either Republicans or Democrats...and why are some void of understanding to consider that FACT? If the tin foil fits, wear it, I guess. Any plausible reasons?? GfS |
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Subject: RE: BS: Can we afford Democracy? From: Bobert Date: 02 Jun 12 - 10:20 PM Inanity, insanity??? Mox nix... Messed up thinkin' no matter... BTW, reading GfinS is like listening to Bobby Goldboro's "Honey" over and dover and over... Says that both side are the same but always picks the right wing side??? Go figure??? B~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Can we afford Democracy? From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity Date: 02 Jun 12 - 11:06 PM Well, only you would listen to Bobby Goldboro's 'Honey' over and over again......ya' think that's how you got so numb in the brain??? Even when you walk away from the computer, wouldn't you want to know the answer to that question??..I mean, just to settle it for yourself?? Don't you want to be knowledgeable enough to define who is who, in your 'dedicated' adherence to the political system??..Wouldn't you like to abe able to answer that question, at least to not always have to give third grade insults??...or are all Democrats AND Republicans full of the shit that's been drummed in their heads?? Wouldn't even want to know??? GfS |
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Subject: RE: BS: Can we afford Democracy? From: GUEST,999 Date: 02 Jun 12 - 11:46 PM "One of the most shocking (and most radical)state government actions in recent years IMO,is Michigan's appointment of city managers to run the local governments of financially troubled cities. This action allows a single non-elected manager to disenfranchise local voters, overrule elected officials, void contracts and pensions, and generally act as an unhindered dictator. And yet nobody (except for some liberal cable TV talk shows) seems to even mention it. What gives?" Dick, you have asked one seriously difficult question and made a brilliant observation. First, the brilliant part: it isn't mentioned imo because the majority of daily newspapers are 'right-of-center' owned. If Republicans saw any mileage to be gained from what's going on in Michigan (union busting, disregard of existing contracts and pension agreements, etc) it would be in the mainstream. This way on a relatively micro scale the federal Republicans can say "Hey, that's got nothing to do with us.", but if it 'works'--and how can it not in the short term. If ya wanna see what the USA would be like under another Republican government, take a look at Michigan. I'd never thought of it like that, so thank you. A similar scenario happened in Alberta back in 1994(?). Government wanted to address the Provincial debt and set out a plan to do just that. In short shrift, public service workers were relieved of 5% of their income. That lasted for a few years. The issue is described here in this link, but it's a dry history (which I have found to be accurate and unbiased). Note I was an ATA member. http://www.teachers.ab.ca/teaching%20in%20alberta/history%20of%20public%20education/pages/the%20nineties.aspx Anyway, the dealing with the debt: it was predicated on the assumption that human services and needs were the main cause of the debt. So, with oil then at $17 ($32?) a barrel, Albertan began to pay on its debt. Then oil jumped over the years to $100 a barrel and has probably averaged out near $50 a barrel. Alberta paid off its debt before its self-set deadline and accredited that in/out cash payment to adroit assessment of the initial causes of the debt. They played that like a fine violin and were able to sidestep the issue that oil was three times its value when they budgeted for the debt. ############################################ What I see at play is the business model that failed all over the world, but countries like ours know damned well that a good idea is worth fighting for, even after it is dead and buried, mostly. However, this time it will be enforced by people who should be addressing crime on the street AND crime in the boardroom, but they will no longer do that because crime today has begun to be seen as a subjugation of rich people by poor people. I do believe that a free press is the most important bastion we have to stand between what-is-served-is-for-us, and what is left is for you. The ideological aspect to this is way overlooked. That is a mistake we've made as a society. ############################################ Anyway, I gotta go. With winter solstice coming up and all, I'll be skinning moose for a warm jacket and a roast dinner. And thinking about Michigan. Thanks, Dick PS I've been so nice because I have seen you in shorts and I figure than any man who's lived his life with legs like yours deserves all the friendly commentary he can get. BM |
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Subject: RE: BS: Can we afford Democracy? From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity Date: 03 Jun 12 - 12:04 AM Guest,999,....being as you have displayed a bit more intelligence than the average 'so-called liberal' Democrats, in here, who only resort to silly name calling, maybe you could take a stab at answering my question, to Dick, in regards to the same model is OK(?) in the federal government but now screwed up when it's the 'other party' pulling the same shenanigans. Here's the premise, again: "Democracy we can EASILY afford. However, what you described is NOT Democracy. The same 'model' is used for the federal government's use of appointed 'czars', or regulatory department heads. This is primarily a tactic to avoid making those oppressive and controlling decisions, of which there is NO accountability!....." "....without their meddling, would be a far MORE productive, and profitable way for everyone concerned......unless they FEAR of losing control of their dominance!.." Isn't this a double standard? Respectfully, Bruce, GfS |
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Subject: RE: BS: Can we afford Democracy? From: dick greenhaus Date: 03 Jun 12 - 12:59 AM I don't recall that I supported 'czars' at any level of government.At the Federal level, though, I haven't seen 'czars' deposing state governments, or voiding exiting contracts or eliminating pensions or disenfranchising anybody. I question the concept that an appointed dictator at any level is a better (I'll grant faster) means of dealing with financial problems than an electorate is. And I still would like to know what' with the media's almost-total lack of coverage of the situation. And Bruce, I never knew you had such a fixation about my legs. They may not be svelte, but they're what has separated me from the ground for a hell of a long time. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Can we afford Democracy? From: GUEST Date: 03 Jun 12 - 01:23 AM Best regards, Michael. It's easy to misread Dick. He contains within himself a knowledge about recorded folk history second to none, and that informs his views of an America he grew to love and cherish. I perceive his thoughts to be those of an honest and outspoken voice, when he remarks. That said, he asked an honest question I think prompted by fundamental questioning of what he holds to be true. His question is heart-wrenching, and I know that because when I ask the same of my own country I get the same feeling. ############################3 I reached the conclusion on the front porch a few minutes ago when I was outside watching the stars through a clouded sky that what we can't afford anymore is rich people. I have one brilliant though per decade. This may or mayn't be 'er. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Can we afford Democracy? From: GUEST,999 Date: 03 Jun 12 - 01:24 AM That was me. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Can we afford Democracy? From: GUEST,999 Date: 03 Jun 12 - 01:34 AM It's not quite a fixation; more like a wonderment concerning the genetic insurmountables of cross-breeding stilts and ostriches. However, important stuff aside, Michigan is the first open slap in the face from an arrogant collection of people, and I fear its a barometric 'social' study, the results from which we could easily find proofs for anything from flat-earth to self-generating electricity. Do a blog called "Views of News" or something like that. You may help in an important manner to bring American pictures back to the faces of Americans. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Can we afford Democracy? From: Bobert Date: 03 Jun 12 - 09:34 AM Very good posts, brucie... Yes, when you strip off all the various dirty tricks that the Republicans have pulled on the working class, going back to Reagan, under all of them is a desire to make the working class bow down to them and take whatever management wants to give them in the way of crumbs... This all started with Ronald Reagan using the full force of the federal government to bust the Air Traffic Controllers Union... That was like the Republican Party crossing the Rubicon and they haven't turned back... They have re-niged on pensions, health care, wages and anything that our grandfathers fought so hard to get... The working class's actual wages (after inflation) have been flat-lined going back to Reagan's first administration... Managements wages have increased over 600% (after inflation) in that same time... And the worst part about it is that the working class knows there are not too many things, short of violence, to change things around... Boss Hog certainly has the upper hand... He has his boot on the working class's neck and everyone know it... Kids coming out of college today are taking jobs with pay levels that put them at or near the poverty level... It's very frustrating... B~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Can we afford Democracy? From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity Date: 03 Jun 12 - 09:43 AM Dick Greenhaus: "I don't recall that I supported 'czars' at any level of government.At the Federal level, though, I haven't seen 'czars' deposing state governments, or voiding exiting contracts or eliminating pensions or disenfranchising anybody." Well, we have a plethora of department heads in the federal government, who make decisions that affect us all...and they are not elected, nor does there seem to be any recourse, other than to 'go with it'. I've pointed out Immelt several times, who was granted $500 billion dollars, and appointed 'jobs czar' under the Obama administration..who went to China to start jobs there..with our tax money. Then you have 'Homeland Security', and EPA..jeez, you could just Google them..and see how many we have, in governing positions..and they have great latitude to pretty mush do whatever they wish, within their departments... ..as for: "Can we afford Democracy?"...I don't know, we haven't had one, in a long time! Perhaps, after reading your last post, and Bruce's, "It's easy to misread Dick.." Maybe you meant 'capitalism'...I'm not sure if that's what you're meaning. Anyway, Thank you Bruce and Dick...for an intelligent, sober thread! Best Regards, GfS |
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Subject: RE: BS: Can we afford Democracy? From: dick greenhaus Date: 03 Jun 12 - 12:37 PM I suspect that actual democracy isn't feasible considering the size of the country and that number of decisions that are required to be made...can you imagine what would be accomplished if there had to be a referendum on every problem that arose? 'Czars' of some sort may well be a practical necessity. But Czars with unlimited power? Last time we had one of those, there was a sizable revolution in Russia. Democracy, like Free enterprise, requires limits. The argument facing us is just where those limits should lie. And Bruce...I think you're recalling someone else's legs. Mine are more of the tree stump or fireplug style. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Can we afford Democracy? From: Bobert Date: 03 Jun 12 - 12:45 PM We have grown so far away from democracy it isn't worth discussing... Thomas Jefferson warned US that in order for it to have a chance it would require an informed electorate... We clearly don't have that with the right-leaning half the country that denies science, history, economics, current events, etc., etc... I know that sounds what they gleefully call elitist, as if knowledge is a bad thing... Fine, I'd rather go down as someone who bothered with education than one who proudly disses it... Either way, democracy ain't working right now... B~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Can we afford Democracy? From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity Date: 03 Jun 12 - 01:12 PM Bobert: "Thomas Jefferson warned US that in order for it to have a chance it would require an informed electorate... We clearly don't have that with the right-leaning half the country that denies science, history, economics, current events, etc., etc..." He also warned us against the very banking system that we have now...let's not be selective, in our quoting from Jefferson....and BTW, your post was somewhat better...but you HAD to slip in the 'right wing' thing..keep in mind, that the 'right wing' and 'left wing' are on the same bird..and neither one is up and flying! You REALLY NEED to walk out of your intelligence limiting stance about those two. They both are corrupted beyond ANYTHING they were supposed to stand for...just try it...it'll sober you up!...a new high! GfS |
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Subject: RE: BS: Can we afford Democracy? From: akenaton Date: 03 Jun 12 - 01:56 PM If we want a meaningful democracy, we must start by treating others with respect, and allowing countries to develope their own style of government...without interference. As I have said before Western "democracy" is only a tool to facilitate manipulation of the masses by the rich and powerful. How can president Obama talk about democracy at home, when he has increased the number of drones and drone stikes very substancially. These strikes are in many cases personally authorised by the president and are killing thousands of innocent men women and children. How many innocents is the death of a "terrorist" worth? How long before socialists are designated terrorist? How would the US like it if Russia or china decided to "take out" some Western terrorists in the "national interest"? If you are interested in worldwide democracy, drone warfare and the idea of "expendable humanity" must be stopped immediately. Obama and his supporters are exposed as hypocrits if they allow the slaughter to continue. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Can we afford Democracy? From: Little Hawk Date: 03 Jun 12 - 02:04 PM The real root of the demise of democracy (by which I mean a form of government that actually honestly and decently represents the people)...at any rate, the real root of the demise of democracy in the USA can be traced to: 1. the fractional reserve lending system which allows the banks to create vast amounts of money out of thin air...thus enriching themselves, causing rampant inflation, and putting the whole society into unpayable levels of debt....and most particularly, the handing over of financial power (money creation) to the Federal Reserve Bank in the early 20th century. 2. the evolution of political parties, which have become self-promoting entities whose only real concern is the pursuit of power, and holding onto that power once they have it. These political parties create permanent psychological divisions between most of the members of the public, and those divisions grow far worse with time, as they are tied to a negative mindset in regards to the "other" party (or parties). This basically divides a nation into mutually incompatible groups of people who hate and despise each other. In the long run this can only lead toward disaster, because as Abe Lincoln said, "a house divided against itself cannot stand". That applies just as well to the existing situation as it did in Lincoln's day. And we see the results of that becoming ever more exacerbated in the present day USA where demonization of Democrats by Republicans and Republicans by Democrats has reached the level of becoming a national mental illness...and has made rational political discussion between the two more or less impossible for a lot of people. You can't have a rational discussion with someone you regard as "evil" and for whom you have no respect. Where does such a situation end? It ends in a civil war...or in the imposition of some sort of severe authoritarian rule from above to keep the lid on the pot, so to speak. Either way, it ends in the destruction of what could be termed "freedom" or "democracy". Freedom is established through unity...through joining together on the many things we share in common, which far outweigh the things that divide us. Unity is achieved through mutual respect. I see very little mutual respect being shown nowadays, either in the political arena...or on this forum. And that's why I don't participate much in the political threads anymore, because it just depresses me and makes me feel hopeless. And I'd rather not be depressed, you see. Why should I add to the already existing challenges of my life in that fashion? How could it possibly help? And how does it help you? (the tiny handful of people on Mudcat who fight with each other every day on the political threads...while most people here can't be bothered to) It doesn't really help you at all. That's clear. But you can't let go of it, can you? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Can we afford Democracy? From: Paul Burke Date: 03 Jun 12 - 04:11 PM I'm rather glad you transatlantics have met up with Gutless Loony, he normally only haunts Brit threads where the assumptions are rather different. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Can we afford Democracy? From: Bobert Date: 03 Jun 12 - 04:38 PM Who in God's green Earth is defending the banking system, GfinS??? Where do you even come up with this mythology??? You got a dart board with BIG LIES on it and Chongz throwing darts blindfolded in the general direction of it??? Sheesh... Defending the purpose of the Federal Reserve and defending the crimes that rich people do with other people's money are worlds apart... Dodd-Frank is a step in the right, make that correct direction!!! If we taxpayers are on the hook, thru FDIC for our fellow citizens deposits then I don't want that money used for gambling... Obama has it half right in regulating the big boys and they hate it... You Tea Party hates it... Romney hates it... Seems that the righties are arguing for the same deregulations that caused the near collapse in '08... Now if Congress would just add the other half of the regs that Obama couldn't get passed in Dodd-Frank, we'll have some sanity... Sorry, I forgot that you don't actually do sanity... B;~) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Can we afford Democracy? From: akenaton Date: 03 Jun 12 - 04:58 PM Said from the heart Little Hawk. I can disagree with not a word, When I get dejected by what I see as willful stupidity and self centred attitudes, I always go back even further than Lincoln....to the fourteenth century. This guy certainly knew the score, The People By Tommaso Campanella (Italian philosopher, 1568–1639. Translation by John Addington Symonds) THE PEOPLE is a beast of muddy brain That knows not its own strength, and therefore stands Loaded with wood and stone; the powerless hands Of a mere child guide it with bit and rein; One kick would be enough to break the chain, 5 But the beast fears, and what the child demands It does; nor its own terror understands, Confused and stupefied by bugbears vain. Most wonderful! With its own hand it ties And gags itself—gives itself death and war 10 For pence doled out by kings from its own store. Its own are all things between earth and heaven; But this it knows not; and if one arise To tell this truth, it kills him unforgiven. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Can we afford Democracy? From: Stringsinger Date: 03 Jun 12 - 07:42 PM If we don't have democracy in the U.S. our country will pay a terrible price by internal revolution and the disrespect from the rest of the world. Fascism will not prevail in the U.S. It's not in the American "DNA". Romney and Obama better take that into account. America's business is not business but democracy built into our Constitution. Our Deist Founding Fathers warned us about our democracy and as Ben Franklin has said, "It's great and I hope we can keep it." This July Fourth, we ought to be thinking about this. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Can we afford Democracy? From: Stringsinger Date: 03 Jun 12 - 07:47 PM "Isn't this a time, a time to try the souls of man"............from Tom Paine, Lee Hays and Walter Lowenfels. BTW Peter, Paul and Mary did not write this song as displayed on the Net. The Weavers were the first to sing it. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Can we afford Democracy? From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity Date: 03 Jun 12 - 10:52 PM I'm glad this thread has got back to being a serious thread. normally, I guess I'd counter Bobert who fires off with ridiculous insults. I'm going to hold back this time, so the thread doesn't turn into a snipe-fest. maybe someone else can explain to them, about why the federal Reserve has gotten out of hand...and that they are private bankers etc. etc. ..and one correction goes to Little Hawk, whose post I thought was brilliant. You attributed the quote, "A house divided against itself cannot stand" to Abraham Lincoln..he was quoting Jesus Christ, on that one. Regards to all, GfS |
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Subject: RE: BS: Can we afford Democracy? From: dick greenhaus Date: 04 Jun 12 - 12:46 AM To return to the specif point: Gov. Rick Snyder put Louis Schimmel in charge of Pontiac last September, invoking Public Act 4, a recent law that lets the governor name appointees to take over financially troubled cities and enact drastic austerity measures. Under the law, passed last March, these emergency managers can nullify labor contracts, privatize public services, sell off city property, and even dismiss elected officials. Schimmel got to work quickly, firing the city clerk, city attorney, and director of public works and outsourcing several city departments. City fire fighters were told that they would be fired if their department was not absorbed by Waterford Township's. Schimmel has proposed putting nearly every city property up for sale, including city hall, the police station, fire stations, water-pumping stations, the library, the golf course, and two cemeteries. Williams (City Councilman) and his six colleagues on city council have been stripped of their salary and official powers. " |
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Subject: RE: BS: Can we afford Democracy? From: Richard Bridge Date: 04 Jun 12 - 04:24 AM I am slightly reminded of Thatcher's destruction of the GLC primarily because it afforded a powerbase that might threaten her. I would however ask - to whom is the expression "Gutless Loony" intended to refer? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Can we afford Democracy? From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity Date: 04 Jun 12 - 09:12 AM could this be a clue?...along with... This More on this..if you care. GfS |
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Subject: RE: BS: Can we afford Democracy? From: Bobert Date: 04 Jun 12 - 09:14 AM Democracy??? Ask the African American Bill Internicola who lives in Florida about it... Yup, he has been stripped of his voting rights... BTW he is 91 years old, fought in WW II and earned a Bronze Star for his heroics in the Battle of the Bulge... This ain't democracy, folks... This is Banana Republic pseudo-democracy... There ain't enough voter fraud to warrant taking the votes away from so many people... I mean, 10 or so cases warrants taking away voting rights for upwards of a million people??? Give me a break... This is like expelling the entire student body 'cause one kid got caught smoking in the boys room... Sheesh??? B~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Can we afford Democracy? From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity Date: 04 Jun 12 - 09:56 AM Let's not divert the thread, into this stuff, Bobert. We all have heard of your panting about the 'civil rights' thing with your racial overtones...Time to get caught up to date. Okay? BTW, you still haven't responded to my two earlier posts, because it requires you to think outside your 'comfort zone box'!! GfS |
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Subject: RE: BS: Can we afford Democracy? From: Bobert Date: 04 Jun 12 - 09:59 AM BTW, when I moved from Wes Ginny back to Va'ginny I had to get a Va. drivers license... Even though I had my original birth certifiacte and a copy of "certificate of live birth" from Washington, D.C, they required a "certified birth certificate"... Were do you get them??? Well, seems there was one, and only one, private company that issued them... Cost; $35... That pissed me off so I wrote the governor who made a few phone calls and I got me license without have to be fleeced outta $35... This kinda shit is what Republicans are doing in order for older black folks who were born at home and don't drive to ***continue*** to have the right to vote... Disgusting and un-American... B~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Can we afford Democracy? From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity Date: 05 Jun 12 - 12:05 AM Bobert: "This kinda shit is what Republicans are doing in order for older black folks who were born at home and don't drive to ***continue*** to have the right to vote..." I thought you were 'white'....so your racist accusation, though emotionally charge, is inaccurately applied...but that don't matter to you....does it??? ....but it sounded like you really care....(that's show business!!) GfS |
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Subject: RE: BS: Can we afford Democracy? From: Don Firth Date: 05 Jun 12 - 12:12 AM Yep. GoofuS definitely has chutzpah!! (I can't believe this guy! In fact, I can't believe him on several different levels!) Don Firth |
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Subject: RE: BS: Can we afford Democracy? From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity Date: 05 Jun 12 - 12:34 AM Feeling detached from reality??? GfS |
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Subject: RE: BS: Can we afford Democracy? From: Don Firth Date: 05 Jun 12 - 01:03 AM Nope. Firmly attached. Want me to throw you a rope? Don Firth |
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Subject: RE: BS: Can we afford Democracy? From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity Date: 05 Jun 12 - 01:32 AM Let's not screw up this thread, OK? It started off seriously till you started interjecting your nonsense....as usual. GfS |
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Subject: RE: BS: Can we afford Democracy? From: Sawzaw Date: 05 Jun 12 - 09:47 AM Kwame Kilpatrick Trial Prosecutors Plan To Call 500 Witnesses, Offer 370,000 Text Messages As Evidence 05/30/2012 The trial of former Detroit Mayor Kwame Kilpatrick, who faces numerous charges of embezzlement and corruption, is shaping up to be a long one. WXYZ reports the prosecution has a list of 500 witnesses prepared for the trial, but it's the 370,000 text messages from the city's phone service provider, obtained when Kilpatrick was in office, that will play a central role in the case, according to the Associated Press. Both the defense and prosecution filed motions Tuesday, making extensive demands before a deadline in Kilpatrick's federal racketeering trial. The prosecution hopes the texts will be allowed as evidence, and attorneys have come up with some unique and entertaining ways to identify the senders. Kilpatrick was apparently easy to spot through his text message style, signing messages with "Mayor" or "Mayor Kilpatrick," according to WXYZ, and relying on the word "COOL!" perhaps a little too much, according to the Detroit News. His father, Bernard Kilpatrick, allegedly offered sage wisdom at the end of his texts with the sign-off, "Don't sweat the small stuff and remember ... it's all small stuff." Friend and contractor Bobby Ferguson set himself apart with misspellings and grammatical errors. This is not the first time the former mayor's tendency to lay out his transgressions in text messages has been used against him. In the "sexting" scandal of several years ago, text messages from Kilpatrick's early years in office revealed his affair with former Chief of Staff Christine Beatty and their conspiracy to fire then-deputy police chief Gary Brown. The two Kilpatricks, Ferguson and Victor Mercado, a former head of Detroit's Water and Sewerage Department, make up the so-called "Kilpatrick Enterprise" that allegedly engaged in extensive corruption during the mayor's stint in office. The four men have all pleaded not guilty and will head to court for in September for the federal trial. Kilpatrick faces up to 30 years in prison if convicted. Side Bar: Kwame Malik Kilpatrick (born June 8, 1970) is a former mayor of Detroit, Michigan. Kilpatrick's mayorship was plagued by numerous scandals and rampant accusations of corruption, with the mayor eventually resigning after being charged with ten felony counts, including perjury and obstruction of justice. Kilpatrick was sentenced to four months in jail after pleading guilty to reduced charges, but with good time awarded to county jail inmates in Michigan, he was released on probation after serving 99 days. On May 25, 2010, he was sentenced to 18 months to 5 years in prison for violating his probation, and served time at the Oaks Correctional Facility in northwest Michigan. He is also under a 38-charge felony indictment on additional corruption charges, in what a federal prosecutor called a "pattern of extortion, bribery and fraud" by some of Detroit's most prominent officials. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Can we afford Democracy? From: Sawzaw Date: 05 Jun 12 - 10:02 AM Obama Endorses Kwame Kilpatrick At the Detroit Economic Club on May 7th, 2007, Obama introduced his friend Kwame Kilpatrick in front of a packed house. Obama states, "He is a leader, not just here in Detroit, not just in Michigan, but all across the country people look to him. We know that he is going to be doing astounding things for many years to come. I'm grateful to call him a friend and a colleague". By March, 2008, Kwame Kilpatrick had been charged with 10 felonies including perjury, obstruction of justice and assaulting a public safety officer. He will be sentenced October 28th. In June, Kwame Kilpatrick gave Barack Obama his endorsement as a Democratic Party Superdelegate. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Can we afford Democracy? From: dick greenhaus Date: 05 Jun 12 - 10:07 AM Corrupt democratically elected officials are nothing new, and the cops and the courts are set up to deal with such. THe problem of incompetent elected officials coms up, an seem to be dealt with most effectively through petitions and the electoral process. Appointed "CZars" are immune to those remedial methods. If thy eye offend thee, cutting off your entire head is no solution. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Can we afford Democracy? From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity Date: 05 Jun 12 - 12:43 PM Dick Greenhaus: "Appointed "CZars" are immune to those remedial methods. If thy eye offend thee, cutting off your entire head is no solution." ..and if your eye is not working, I guess looking the other way, is just as futile....you can't see, straight, anyway...and THAT is exactly the reason for the diversions promoted by an impaired vision body politic!....and what does that leave us?...The blind leading the blind!!!! "But we love it that way, Every day, And we hope that the bad times are here to stay. Fa la la la la..la la la la la" -B.R. GfS |
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Subject: RE: BS: Can we afford Democracy? From: robomatic Date: 05 Jun 12 - 12:47 PM Guest From Smugville is right: -Democracy just won't work!- I heard it on the Simpsons |
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Subject: RE: BS: Can we afford Democracy? From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity Date: 05 Jun 12 - 01:32 PM Words of wisdom from a robot! GfS |
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Subject: RE: BS: Can we afford Democracy? From: Richard Bridge Date: 05 Jun 12 - 02:23 PM Your point, Sorearse? One black is bent so the rest must be? Or one Democrat is bent so the rest must be? Cuckoo! I find it very hard to understand why federal standards do not govern voting eligibility, though. And the obviousness of the evil in the conduct the main premise of this thread is so obvious that it causes me to wonder about those who defend that evil. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Can we afford Democracy? From: Bobert Date: 05 Jun 12 - 02:31 PM So, GfinS... If I follow your usual illogic, if a white person criticizes other white people who are discriminating against black people it is the former who is "racist"??? That, my friend, is the most illogical twisted piece of bullshit that I believe you have have offered, ahhhhhhh, maybe forever... Guess with your logic that makes my mom a "racist" for participating in civil rights demonstrations way back in the 60s??? BTW, what does that make the true racists, you know like the KKK??? Racist-Plus??? Super Racists??? Pathetic reasoning on your part, at best, GfinS... B~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Can we afford Democracy? From: robomatic Date: 05 Jun 12 - 02:46 PM I like the term "faux" racist. Or, if you like Asian soup, a 'pho' racist. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Can we afford Democracy? From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity Date: 05 Jun 12 - 02:54 PM Bobert: "So, GfinS... If I follow your usual illogic, if a white person criticizes other white people who are discriminating against black people it is the former who is "racist"???" Bobert..Oh dear Bobert..according to your post NOBODY was discriminating against anybody. You just threw in that crap, for..well no real reason, at all. Seemed to me that you just had to pay the same amount as anyone. So did you have a REAL point??..or just using the opportunity to make a useless statement?..yeah, yeah, yeah...the Republican Tea party made you do it, right?? ..to pay for their flying pigs and last weeks lizards.... GfS |
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Subject: RE: BS: Can we afford Democracy? From: GUEST,999 Date: 05 Jun 12 - 03:46 PM I'm gonna grab a few tokes and catch up with this thread. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Can we afford Democracy? From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity Date: 05 Jun 12 - 03:55 PM Bless ya'! GfS |
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Subject: RE: BS: Can we afford Democracy? From: Don Firth Date: 05 Jun 12 - 04:19 PM Goofus does not have any points to make, at least that he can support with evidence or rationality. His whole purpose here is to feed his fragile ego by disrupting all efforts at rational discussion and to hurl vulgar insults at those whose knowlege and intellect far exceed his own. I won't be jousting with him for awhile for two reasons: first, I will be busy for a bit. I have a President to get elected. And second, as we gallop toward each other in the lists, he keeps falling off his horse. No fun to joust with. Carry on. Don Firth |
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Subject: RE: BS: Can we afford Democracy? From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity Date: 05 Jun 12 - 04:23 PM Don Froth: "...I won't be jousting with him for awhile for two reasons:" Yeah, One you keep getting your ass whipped, and the second, you keep making a fool of yourself, with no embarrassment! GfS |
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Subject: RE: BS: Can we afford Democracy? From: Don Firth Date: 05 Jun 12 - 04:47 PM Blah blah blah blah..... Like I said, he keeps falling off his horse. Don Firth |
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Subject: RE: BS: Can we afford Democracy? From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity Date: 05 Jun 12 - 04:51 PM http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Rav9ijyyZk gfS |
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Subject: RE: BS: Can we afford Democracy? From: Bobert Date: 05 Jun 12 - 05:51 PM Disenfranchising African American voters, according the GfinS, isn't racist??? Beam me up, Scotty... B~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Can we afford Democracy? From: Bobert Date: 05 Jun 12 - 06:01 PM BTW, GfinS... Me thinks you need a remedial reading course... You seem to not comprehend what others write... You completely misread what I ***plainly*** wrote about the Republicans disenfranchising certain voters... You almost never comprehend what Don writes even though he writes very ***plainly***... I donno??? Maybe a community college could help you??? B~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Can we afford Democracy? From: GUEST,999 Date: 05 Jun 12 - 06:48 PM Robo, it's been a while. Trust things are good in the 49th. Great to see you back. As for this thread, I've caught up with my reading and I wish to make one cogent remark which I think may have escaped your kind attentions, gentlemen. Does the expression SSDD mean anything to y'all!? Look, dammit, if you're going to hurl insults ya gotta give 'em some class. I'll choose one at random and go from there. For example: 'he keeps falling off his horse' I would rewrite that so it has PC-ness to it. 'he suffers middle ear infections that occasion him to leave his equine mount in slipshod and disorderly fashion' Yet another: 'Beam me up, Scotty' This at once simple yet blatant [insert fencing move name of your choice] is a direct attempt to suggest that the intended recipient needs transport to attend community college. I would rewrite it to read 'Yo, Jack, you need a lift?' See, it's easy to take the sting out of one's remarks yet say the same thing. Then someone else will inquire as to the person's health or school classes and before ya know it, quietudinousness will reign. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Can we afford Democracy? From: Bobert Date: 05 Jun 12 - 07:10 PM Listen, brucie... For the record, the "Beam me up" is from former Representative Jimmy Traficant who represented Youngstown, Ohio until he was arrested and convicted of mis-appropraiting some $$$... Anyway, check him out... He bought all his clothes at Goodwill... He cut his own hair... He was a complete hoot... But what he was best known for were his 1 minute rants on the House of Representatives which he did every day... They always made a lot of sense and at the end of each one he would say "Beam me up, Scotty"... There you have it... It's blue-collar and I loved Jimmy's rants... My kinda guy... Too bad about the misunderstanding that got him jailed but I'm sure that, seein' as he pissed of every House member at least once, they were glad to be rid of him... Not me... B~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Can we afford Democracy? From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity Date: 05 Jun 12 - 07:22 PM Bobert: "Jimmy Traficant who represented Youngstown, Ohio until he was arrested and convicted of mis-appropraiting some $$$... ... My kinda guy... Too bad about the misunderstanding that got him jailed .... they were glad to be rid of him... Not me. B~ " Says it all. GfS |
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Subject: RE: BS: Can we afford Democracy? From: Don Firth Date: 05 Jun 12 - 07:46 PM Point taken, 9. However— Unless I'm mistaken (and look for it! GoofuS will leap on that phrase like a pit bull on a pork chop! He is such a simple and predictable soul!), I believe the standard follow-up of "Beam me up Scotty!" is "There's no intelligent life on this planet!" And I try to keep my prose as simple and clear as possible, avoiding multisyllabic verbalization because I know that straining to understand literary sallies of that nature give GoofuS a severe case if mal de tête. I'm a kind and compassionate soul by nature, having been raised by a mother who always counseled me that I should be kind to dumb animals. Yes, I think Bobert's suggestion about a community college definitely has merit. Don Firth |
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Subject: RE: BS: Can we afford Democracy? From: Bobert Date: 05 Jun 12 - 08:15 PM Ain't about Jimmy-T takin' no money, GfinS... 'Bout someone standing up in the House of Reps every day stickin' it to anyone and everyone... You messed up... Always lookin' for a snappy comeback... Missed the meat and taters but found the crumb on the floor... Congrates... B~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Can we afford Democracy? From: dick greenhaus Date: 05 Jun 12 - 08:34 PM To return (hopefully) to the thread topic: Does anyone have a serious suggestion as to the best way to deal with a city (or community, or state, or country) In financial straits? I, for one, don't find dictatorship to be a good answer. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Can we afford Democracy? From: Bobert Date: 05 Jun 12 - 08:45 PM Well, Dick... This ie easy... Get rid of Republicans who have taken the biggest tool outta Obama's tool box; $$$... We have just witness the lowest increase in federal spending since WW II... That means that the Repubs won't authorize any money for anything other than the bare necessities and the Defense Department... That means less money to the states which means less money to the local governments... That's why state and local governments are laying off people left and right... That's why our employment figures look crappy... This is a forced austerity... Leech therapy... Stupid economics... Get rid of the Repubs and restore sane economic policies... B~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Can we afford Democracy? From: robomatic Date: 05 Jun 12 - 09:54 PM I'm still the bluest guy in my Alaska neighborhood and the reddest guy in my old Mass neighborhood. I would rather be dealing with the yahoos of the left and the goons of the right in the U S anytime rather than the folks of Russia who poison you over lunch. In the meantime, plenty of good old nasty politics of the kind we Yanks have known 'n loved for generations. In the middle of last Winter we reeived a visit from the kind people who form Capitol Steps (if you haven't heard the Capitol Steps, buy all their live albums, they are great. The members came out as a group and THANKED us (Alaskan audience) for Sarah Palin. And when they specified her as our 'former' Governor the rather large audience cheered and cheered! Speaking of Our Sarah, get ahold of HBOs movie last month "Game Change" Pretty decent. Sarah's got her problems, and the rest of her family is composed of media junkies and wh0res, but I prefer them to the humorless prevaricator known as Bachman, who is probably not done with her minutes of fame. In the meantime, if you pay attention to the new TechWars, comes the story that the recent Stuxnet Virus was started by the Bush administration and continued under the Obama |
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Subject: RE: BS: Can we afford Democracy? From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity Date: 05 Jun 12 - 10:22 PM Dick Greenhaus: "Does anyone have a serious suggestion as to the best way to deal with a city (or community, or state, or country) In financial straits?" Apparently, from the early results of the Wisconsin recall election, the Democratic/labor union recall challenge has gone down to a landslide defeat. According to the 'news' Scott walker, Governor, has turned a rather large multi-billion dollar deficit into a comfortable surplus, and that weighed heavily in his favor...and a message to the Democratic Party, nationally. I'm sure there will be all sorts of whining about this, but hey, that's how democracy can re-act to the failed policies of expanding government, into excesses...That's NOT saying I'm 'anti-union' per se, however, this issue arose from federal unions being broken, because of their perceived excessive demands, that was straining Wisconsin's economy. This SHOULD be a message to any die-hard Democrat, that if you want your message to get out, you should make sure it does NOT overdo it, and work against the majority of people's economic well being...or you will get the same backlash that the Republicans faced, after the Bush's administration's mess of things. GfS |
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Subject: RE: BS: Can we afford Democracy? From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity Date: 05 Jun 12 - 10:27 PM Don froth: ""Beam me up Scotty!" is "There's no intelligent life on this planet!" Actually, it means 'Beam me up'....'There is no intelligent life on this planet', may not be the reason at all...that's where you get into so much trouble, Don, assuming and presuming, and stuffing words into people's mouths. For all you know, someone wants to 'beam up, 'cuz they gotta' take an urgent crap!! GfS |
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Subject: RE: BS: Can we afford Democracy? From: Don Firth Date: 06 Jun 12 - 02:14 AM It's always bowels with you, isn't it, GoofuS!?? Don Firth |
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Subject: RE: BS: Can we afford Democracy? From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity Date: 06 Jun 12 - 02:27 AM Well, I guess you speak from the convictions..deep from inside yours! GfS |
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Subject: RE: BS: Can we afford Democracy? From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity Date: 06 Jun 12 - 02:29 AM Oh..and that's MISTER Goofus, to you! GfS |
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Subject: RE: BS: Can we afford Democracy? From: Bobert Date: 06 Jun 12 - 08:34 AM Yes, robo, the cyber attack on the Iranian nuclear program was underway when Obama took office... George Bush had a private meeting with Obama and laid out the framework... It was still in the making, however, and not quite ready to employ... It would definitely make for a very good movie... BTW, anyone Google up Jimmy Traficant??? Very interesting man and one of Congresses most non-conformist and colorful representatives in the last century... The fact that he got busted doing what politicians do doesn't change that... B~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Can we afford Democracy? From: dick greenhaus Date: 06 Jun 12 - 02:10 PM Jeez, Louise. CAN'T ANYONE HERE STICK TO A TOPIC? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Can we afford Democracy? From: GUEST,999 Date: 06 Jun 12 - 03:47 PM 1) Municipalities have budgets to live within. It raises its money through taxation of various forms. The biggie is property tax, closely followed I think by government grants aimed usually at specific projects. I expect it works much the same in the US. The range of services vary depending on the size of the municipality and its tax base. Certain services are absolutely necessary to survival in the city: emergency protective services, snow removal, garbage removal, traffic design, etc. We've seen a big Michigan city lose more than half its population since the 1950s. With them went the tax base. Now crumbling structures and some districts are rodent-infested fire traps, and of the remaining 800,000 people, who knows how they feel? Budgets require that services continue, and were the city down in size physically, the same services could be scaled back and still addressed effectively. However, the buildings for the most part still stand, many empty. A problem has been unbridled growth both in human population and city size. When big cities spread, they usually take up farmland and forest and all those situations create knock-on effects. Soon as yer crops are far away from your town, things start getting more expensive. The house ya bought for $200,000 is now worth $95,000 but ya pay the mortgage on the $200,000. Disposable income drops to take up slack in necessities, and the ripple effects from that mean even more people are scrunched by a lesser cash flow. Then the national housing crisis and various banking thefts of real estate laid the US open to the acceptance of harsher laws to protect what was already spirited away. Today, with one party in the US spouting thinly disguised class warfare--it's rich and wants to remain so, and the other party being told what to do by big business--and then doing it, I have no solution. It's like being a banana republic when ya got no bananas. China holds American paper for one and a half trillion dollars. Hell, the money is gone like it was never there. With it went jobs. Lots of jobs. Massive corporations cause more trouble than they should. Workers want to pay their bills, but the cost of living is no longer in our own hands. The whole 'do more with less philosophy' which will eventually have us doing everything with nothing has proven to be a failure, but that doesn't stop employers from thinking just that. We waste our heritage for quick fixes and drift from values which dictate we strive for something good for ourselves, our families, our neighbours, our friends--maybe sooner or later being able to improve conditions for the whole world. But if the cash is being stolen at the source, well, there ain't gonna be no cash and there ain't gonna be no improvement! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Can we afford Democracy? From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity Date: 06 Jun 12 - 03:47 PM I'm trying...between these stupid attacks gfS |
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Subject: RE: BS: Can we afford Democracy? From: Don Firth Date: 06 Jun 12 - 04:26 PM HAH!! Don Firth |
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Subject: RE: BS: Can we afford Democracy? From: Bobert Date: 06 Jun 12 - 05:04 PM Yes, GfinS, and 90% of those "attacks" come from you... Yeah, brucie... Most of $$$ used my local governments is from property taxes, however, they also receive $$$ from... *the state government thru various programs and... ...the federal government thru block grants... Block grants are way down now because the Republicans have stripped most of the $$$ out of them... These grants, however, have been used to renovate old buildings, rebuild old bridges, fund infill projects... One can argue that this should be done by the communities alone but local governments, for the most part, are cash strapped and these projects won't/can't get done without the grants... In a perfect world those grants would be equally spread around but in today's world, less populated states (red states) have received way more block grant per/capita than states with larger populations... This kinda makes you wonder why red states seem so pissed off at the federal government seein' as they live at the front teet... B~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Can we afford Democracy? From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity Date: 06 Jun 12 - 06:38 PM Bobert: "Yes, GfinS, and 90% of those "attacks" come from you..." Just scroll back, on this and any recent threads, and COUNT them. Your math is way off! My rebuttals SEEM like more, but they are just a bit better..You and Firth's WAY outnumber mine..AND YOU two are the ones who divert the thread! OK...Let's stay on topic..as you can also go back, and see that I've called for that at least three times on this thread alone!!!!!!! GfS |
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Subject: RE: BS: Can we afford Democracy? From: Bobert Date: 06 Jun 12 - 07:20 PM Yes, let's... How about Pfizer, sans the anti-Obama blogs??? Doesn't it piss you off that the American taxpayers granted Pfizer a patent on a drug that was developed by N.I.H... You talk about welfare... Just look at Q's excellent lonk to Pfizer... That gift will end up looking like at least $100B gift to Pfizer from all of us taxpayers??? I mean, this can be discussed without politics and Obama hate... B~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Can we afford Democracy? From: Bobert Date: 06 Jun 12 - 07:23 PM Yes, let's... How about Pfizer, sans the anti-Obama blogs??? Doesn't it piss you off that the American taxpayers granted Pfizer a patent on a drug that was developed by N.I.H... You talk about welfare... Just look at Q's excellent lonk to Pfizer... That gift will end up looking like at least $100B gift to Pfizer from all of us taxpayers??? I mean, this can be discussed without politics and Obama hate... B~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Can we afford Democracy? From: Bobert Date: 06 Jun 12 - 07:24 PM Opps!!! Too much caffeine... B;~) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Can we afford Democracy? From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity Date: 07 Jun 12 - 01:40 AM The question, as I read it is, "Can we afford Democracy?" I think the answer is "Yes"..but only if we want to allow ourselves to SPEND time with honesty, instead of political spin!! I would rather hear two differing ideologues, who are being straight with the truth, as they see it, debating the differing sides of the same topic, rather than two people, who are the 'PRODUCT' of manufactured 'spin', whose motive is to 'win' an argument, rather than to get to the bottom of the actual TRUTH...the problem is, what is the TRUTH??....at that point, let the public decide, through the Democratic process, to go in the direction of the majority. It is then, that Democracy works..whether or not the choices made, are 'good' ones eventually comes out in the wash. What we have seen, as of recent, is great ideas and some not so great, exploited for corrupt means, by corrupt means to give profits and power, to the few elites, who promote great SOUNDING ideas...but their goal is nothing but indebtedness to those naive enough to believe them on shallow face value!...and for that influence to drag the rest of the unwilling majority with them. We have seen and experienced nearly unprecedented deception at all levels, and at every turn. When the thumb-suckers, cannot prove their point, as having TRUTH in it, rather than taking the higher road, admitting a mistake, and therefore, begin the path of learning something, they resort to the tactic of 'demonizing' those who are telling the truth....and therefore deceiving more people along the way. This has been a tactic of many of the party leaders, on both sides, because in it, there is profits..either in power, influence or money! The vote in Wisconsin is either proof of that..or a repudiation of that..and as a result, a LOT of people are freaked! Not so much as reported today, but nonetheless significant, was the voting results in San Diego, California, and San Jose, California. California, as many of you know, is a VERY 'liberal' state, which went overwhelmingly for Obama, and so far is expected to do the same in the upcoming elections..HOWEVER, in San Diego County, a more Conservative area, they voted by a 66 to 33% margin to cut backs on the government union benefits, and San Jose which is Huber-liberal, and closer to San Francisco, voted the same thing...but this time, by a 70 to 30% margin AGAINST the government union benefits. Couple that to Wisconsin's results, and it shows me, at least, that somehow people aren't buying the liberal/big union labor rap, as much as some of you may wish...BUT, that's what happens in a Democracy. President Obama, though in his campaign, swore allegiance to big organized labor, and took approx 62-64 millions of union dollars in campaign contributions, pretty much threw both of them under the bus. Both Larry Summers and Bill Clinton are both making statements contrary to Obama's economic 'policies'..and the 'left' is somewhat in a tailspin trying to spin it back the other way.....WITHOUT understanding 'WHY??' Now as I've posted before, 'being deceived', is not in itself 'evil'..because people, given the information that they've got to go on, will try to make the best decision, that they can for their best interest...BUT, the 'evil' is in those who deceive..mislead..so people can only make the best decisions based on the deceiver's 'best interests'..THAT'S where the EVIL, and the corruption has corrupted our political process.and infected our body politic! 'Can we afford democracy?'....only if people go through the process of affording themselves personal morality...to see straight, and process the information that they receive..to be ABLE to decipher what their best interests are...as opposed to the manipulators!!!! YES WE CAN AFFORD the morality!! It starts with stopping the process of believing the bullshit and lies, as a result of cleaning your filters...and/or trying to 'find' a simple solution...by assuming someone else is going to do it for you...or expecting something for not earning it...and getting rid of that sense of entitlement..and appreciating the work and effort of those who are able to provide it...including YOURSELVES!! Does that sufficiently answer your question, Dick? GfS |
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Subject: RE: BS: Can we afford Democracy? From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity Date: 07 Jun 12 - 07:56 PM GREAT!! Point made and understood!!!! GfS |
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Subject: RE: BS: Can we afford Democracy? From: Don Firth Date: 07 Jun 12 - 08:03 PM End quote, Ayn Rand. Don Firth |
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Subject: RE: BS: Can we afford Democracy? From: Bobert Date: 07 Jun 12 - 08:25 PM When you quit using terms like "thumb suckers" and when you quit using every post to slam Obama then that discussion about policy, which on one hand you say you want but on the other you frame around Tea Party BS, can begin... I'm willing to talk policy... I have posted on this thread and others "policy, policy, policy"... When you're ready, let's talk policy... Democracy??? I mean, in today's reality that 90% of candidate who spend the most win then something is wrong... 1.)...What we need is to restore the "Equal Time Doctrine"... Also called "Fairness Doctrine"... You get your microphone time to attack me then I get equal time to defend myself... 2.)... What we need is to respect the principles laid out in the Magna Carta where one gets to face his accusers... With Citizens United we have turned out back on 600 years of accepted legal theory... We now have BIG $$$ snipers ambushing people from behind walls... We are seeing "American Future Fund" (???) carpet bombing Obama here in NC... No such thing going on against Romney... 3.)... Like Europe, we need to limit campaign ads to a limited time before elections... 4.)... We need to fund all federal elections... 5.)... We need to have debates televised lie they used to be in the 50's with folks of all walks involved... 6.)... We need to enforce voter rights laws and let those who think that disenfranchising voters for political purpose that that practice is unacceptable and unAmerican... 7.)... We need redistrict our Congressional districts so that they are competitive... If this takes an outside group, even the UN, then so be it... Safe districts are the enemy of democracy... 8.)... We need to put civics & current events back in school... If we can fund tens of thousands of high school football programs there is no reason why we can't teach civics & current events... 9.)... We need to require that any television network licensed & approved by the FCC have to return to a required "public service announcements" and devote a % of their air time to documentaries... and... 10.)... We need to set in motion a program where kids get get one year of college for every year of community service related paid empolyment... B~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Can we afford Democracy? From: ollaimh Date: 07 Jun 12 - 10:34 PM IT WOULD BE NICE TO HAVE AN ACTUAL DEMOCRACY, |
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Subject: RE: BS: Can we afford Democracy? From: Bobert Date: 07 Jun 12 - 11:05 PM YUP!!! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Can we afford Democracy? From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity Date: 08 Jun 12 - 12:27 AM Ayn Rand????? What is this??...another one of your diversions of the thread??? Why bring up a fiction writer??....We're talking about affording Democracy by spending the time and energy, find the TRUTH, first within ourselves, to be able to know the truth, so the electorate can make informed, and intelligent decisions while democratically voting for the choices, and the people put before them. What does Ayn Rand, play into this??...If I want to read FICTION, I can just read any number of your posts!!! 'You can't see the players, without a program'....and who is funding them...and for why......and what does the candidate OWE those backers, for their help. BTW..40% of the union voters, in Wisconsin, voted for Walker!!! SOOO, in light of that, I'd say, that contrary to their union benefits, and will of the unions..they voted because they sensed that the economy of the whole, was more valuable, than their self gratification. hats off to them...INFORMED and INTELLIGENT voters!!! GfS |
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Subject: RE: BS: Can we afford Democracy? From: GUEST,TIA Date: 08 Jun 12 - 12:35 AM "hats off to them...INFORMED and INTELLIGENT voters!!!" Yet further evidence of a self-proclaimed "non-partisan" intellect. Sheesh. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Can we afford Democracy? From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity Date: 08 Jun 12 - 01:13 AM Well, that was silly. The union voters, who voted FOR Walker, are being reported, as per interviews from those voters, did so, because they voted for the well being of the economy of their state, rather than for the benefits, they would have gained, by voting for Barrett. You probably don't understand that...but that's how they voted...take it up with them. GfS |
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Subject: RE: BS: Can we afford Democracy? From: Don Firth Date: 08 Jun 12 - 02:13 AM GoofuS, you ARE uninformed! Ayn Rand is a powerful political influence these days. Her final novel, Atlas Shrugged was a blatant 1,000 page political tract, and she has one character, John Galt, giving a 50 page speech. And it's obvious to anyone with half a brain cell, that that is really Rand herself talking. She has also written several works of non-fiction. "The Virtue of Selfishness," and "Capitalism, the Unknown Ideal" are the two most notable ones. She sparked a movement in the late 1960s with her lecture series, "The Basic Principles of Objectivism" (Objectivism is what she calls her philosphy) that inspired the formation of the Libertarian Party, composed, at least initially, of Ayn Rand's disciples. Alan Greenspan, a Wall Street broker, appointed by Ronald Reagan (!!) to be Chairman of the Federal Reserve (retired 2006) was one of Ayn Rand's disciples. He was one of those who gutted such regulatory agencies as the Securities and Exchange Commission--which has a lot to do with the financial mess the country is in now! And you want to blame it on Barack Obama! You ARE an ignorant sod! There has been a recent resurgence of interest in Ayn Rand's works and her philosophy, and this is very much the basis for the Tea Party movement, and many current ultra-Rightist groups. Including such aspiring presidential candidates as Ron Paul. And ALL the Republican candidates have been talking like they are very familiar with her work and agree with it. And YOU talk like she's right up your alley. I'm not sure I believe that you think she's just a writer of fiction. --Well, in a manner of speaking, she is. The world, and the heads of businesses and corporations are NOT the starry-eyed, creative, inventive superheroes she claims they are.-- Frankly, I think your just bloody ignorant! Otherwise, you wouldn't post some of the stuff that you do. Don Firth |
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Subject: RE: BS: Can we afford Democracy? From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity Date: 08 Jun 12 - 02:46 AM Well, I sure ain't a fan of Greenspan(it even rhymes), and commentaries, such as Rand's are not much more than today's bloggers...and most is just fiction....as your posts. I can at least back mine up. Whenever I do back them up, or make plain common sense, you go into a frothing, mad raving, splattering spittle all over the computer screen, name-calling binge, trying to demonize me, or others. All you have to do, is once in a while post a FACT with back up...and of course, quit misquoting people's post, and trying to put words in their mouths...Words that you are ready to rebut...because you don't listen to what they/we are saying....just your VERY narrow, uninformed with FACTUAL proof, opinions!!! If you had half an ounce of wherewithal, instead of mouthing off, you would have taken some info in, and actually learned something...but of course, you don't know what I'm talking about, and are ready to splatter, again! Oh, and I couldn't give a rat's ass about Ayn Rand! Oh, and your little sh-peel about Reagan and DE-regulating...was that unlike Billy 'Cigar' Clinton and Glass-Steagal. Too bad you can't see beyond partisan politics, like your 'little buddy', Gilligan. you still think that the Democrats are the party of 'us wee folk'...when in reality, they are just as much in the pockets, and servants of the corrupt banksters. Until you get that straight, you'll never make sense!!! ...and your rants, even more ridiculously silly. If you were anything near 'sane', you'd be embarrassed! .....but in time, you can go back over your stuff, vs. my posts...and see just how far you were deluded..BTW, mine, as time goes on, get proved over and over again....yours just don't get brought up!...and that's the truth......truth......you know, truth......truth.....oh, just look it up. GfS |
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Subject: RE: BS: Can we afford Democracy? From: Bobert Date: 08 Jun 12 - 08:29 AM Put another way, the current crop of Republicans want it all their way... Here's what they have been working for for years: ***No unions ***90% of people living on less than $12 an hour yet responsible for: 1. their own health care costs 2. paying for their kids college education 3. their own retirement 4. all their living expenses 5. without: a. housing assistance b. low income tax credits c. food stamps d. or any other assistance from the government This is the world of Any Rand's John Galt and the new crop of Republicans think it is a peachy model for America... Hmmmmm???? Isn't that what Somalia looks like??? Not quite, but close... B~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Can we afford Democracy? From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity Date: 08 Jun 12 - 11:41 AM Well, it's not like I'm a big fan of Republicans, either...but can you back up your claims??...or is this just more quasi-far-left-ranting rhetoric? Back it up. Show me in their writings, or a speech, from one of them, that says all that....because until then, I'll have to take it as another paranoid, neurotic bunch of jabbering blather...which you and 'the professor' are pretty well known for. ...and, this thread IS coming back to the 'main' topic...but first let the magpies, or maybe we should say, 'Nagpies' have their say. GfS |
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Subject: RE: BS: Can we afford Democracy? From: GUEST,999 Date: 08 Jun 12 - 11:49 AM "Back it up. Show me in their writings, or a speech, from one of them, that says all that" Their actions show them to be greedy avaricious bastards with no regard for anyone but themselves. I think a dozen years demonstrates clearly that Republicans are garbage as politicians: crooks, thieves and delinquent SOBs with regard to the rights of people. Don't need a speech from anyone who's holding you down about why ya deserve to be there on the bottom, and that's what Republicans do. I could go find speeches--if I have to--but it ain't gonna change what I just said. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Can we afford Democracy? From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity Date: 08 Jun 12 - 01:28 PM No argument there, Bruce....and the exact same thing is true, in respect to the Democrats, as well! Neither of them represent me, or the American people.. despite their lofty, but clever manipulations of the things we believe in...and USED to hold dear! Instead, they've done NOTHING but exchanged our FREEDOMS for controlling government programs, and imperialistic wars, not to mention the divisiveness they BOTH have used, to the behest of an extremely corrupted banking and financial system. The 'right' and 'left' are at each others throats....and for 'Why?'....I'll give some of you knuckleheads a clue...it's whether we go 'Nationalistic Social party'(Nazi)..or Marxist Socialistic party(communism)...What they HAVE to get rid of, to accomplish EITHER of these totalitarian replacements, is FREEDOM!! Patriot Act?? NDAA?? Obamacare?? Fast and Furious? Nafta? 911? JFK in Dallas? The FED? Gitmo? Immelt taking 500 billion of our taxes to China? The mid-east? EPA & FDA giving a pass to Monsanto? The dismantling of our anti-monopoly laws?..But just long enough for their banking buddies to get through the door, then closing it! Citizen United?..though the 'left' bitches..unless it's union support. Class warfare? Massive psychological warfare? Domestic internment camps? The clever neutralization of our Constitution? Iran-contra? ..and the list goes on....Jeez, it's so bad, you'd think that even the folk singers who used to sing proclaiming FREEDOM would start bickering among themselves....arguing over what FORM of totalitarianism they'd rather impose on themselves!!!! ANY CLUES OUT THERE, ANYONE???????????????????????!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! MOST SINCERELY, GfS |
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Subject: RE: BS: Can we afford Democracy? From: Bobert Date: 08 Jun 12 - 02:37 PM Union busting became popular with the full force of the United States government under Ronald Reagan busting the Air Traffic Controllers Union into smithereens... That set off a series of bullshit union tactics that continue to this very day as part of the Republican ALEC package of union busting og cops, firemen, teachers, public works, etc... That is the short history of the Republican Party's interests in union busting... Now lets talk jobs... As part of the union busting efforts wages have stagnated since Reagan opened the door for union busting... After inflation the working class has been stuck at the same place for 30 years now... And with the 8,000,000 jobs lost under the Republican Bush 43 what that has done is make people desperate for anything... You have millions of people with college degrees having to take minimum wage jobs... Go to any Starbucks... Lousy wages and guess what??? Half the kids working there have degrees... The "Charlotte Observer" did a piece on poverty last September and reported that 1/2 of American families live on $26,200 a year... With $22,400 being the poverty level for a family of four that means that about half of Americans are living at 125% of poverty OR LESS... Yet every time the minimum wage is brought up in Congress the Republicans shoot it down saying it will kill jobs??? Kill jobs??? 8,000,000 lost under Bush with the lowest minimum wage (after inflation) since the minimum wage was started almost a half a century ago... Last Republican BIG LIE for now... "Elect us... Yeah, we know that we are proposing the same ideas that were in place when the economy collapsed but we think that it will work next time... Our donors say that if you elect us and we roll back taxed they will create more jobs... They promise... Trust us..." Fuck!!! If they were going to create more jobs then why did they fire 8,000,000 last time when they had things the way they wanted... Why don't they create them now??? They are sitting on $2T in cash... What's giving them more of our cash gonna do??? Yup, what we have is a very greedy and corrupt Republican Party that makes the current batch of Dems look like Boy Scouts... B~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Can we afford Democracy? From: GUEST,999 Date: 08 Jun 12 - 03:09 PM "the Republican ALEC package" I posted to a thread with links to their names but a mod thought it was too much like McCarthyism so it went the way of the dodo. That was about a year ago. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Can we afford Democracy? From: Don Firth Date: 08 Jun 12 - 03:09 PM If anyone on this thread is foaming at the mouth and spittle-spraying--and is establishing himself as just bloody uninformed--it's Goofus. If someone points out something he posted that reveals his abysmal ignorance, he becomes especially vitriolic and insulting. That's a major tip-off. Ayn Rand's writings have formed the philosophical base of the Republican and general Right-Wing position, and the particularly rabid Tea Party bunch. Rand's particular heroes are modeled after HER real-life heroes: the robber barons, industrialists and financiers, who ruled the roost in the late nineteenth, early twentieth century. Among other things, she wrote a tract on rescinding child labor. And I found it particularly interesting when Newt Gingrich suggested cutting to cost of education by firing school janitors and custodians (isn't that going to add to the unemployment problem?) and assigning students to do the janitorial work! One of Ayn Rand's more telling quotes is when she says, "How much money a man possesses is a barometer of his virtue." Well, I might agree with that in reverse, considering what some of the wealthy have done to attain their wealth! Wikipedia has quite a good article on Ayn Rand. Don Firth P. S. I am VERY familiar with Ayn Rand and her works. I was a big fan of The Fountainhead, especially when I was getting grief in the U. of W. School of Music because I was interested in folk music (Howard Rourk's hassles with the architecture school he was attending early in the book), and it encouraged me to ignore the jibes and stick to my goals. And I got caught up in other people's enthusiasm for her view of the world in Atlas Shrugged, and, despite some growing misgivings, I took the Nathaniel Brandon lecture series on "The Basic Principles of Objectivism." And I read Rand's non-fiction as well. So I am very conversant with her work and her views. It was in her Capitalism, the Unknown Ideal that I grew up. Her vitriolic assaults on any attempts to regulate the excesses of the corporations—and how bloody wrong her view of the world was caused me to re-evaluate everything of hers that I had read. Among other things, after telling her disciples to question everything and use their own judgment, whenever one of them questioned anything SHE said, she turned into a screaming shrew! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Can we afford Democracy? From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity Date: 08 Jun 12 - 03:10 PM Bobert: "Now lets talk jobs..." Let's talk FREEDOM! You come back with your small minded little semi-literate rant again pointing at the 'other party' but FAILED to address the MAIN issue...Democracy and FREEDOM. You rant about Citizens United, but look the other way when it comes to the unions supporting your corrupt idiot candidate........when 40% of the rank and file union members voted for Walker. Another one of your pet double standards....and you know 'WHY?'...because the political double talk has confused you, as to you knowing whether you're coming, or going...and you CAN'T have it both ways...and EVERYTHING you talk about, revolves around partisan distractions, which is a 'cover' to preoccupy your attentions, as to what is really going on here! Same with your buddy..except he's more concerned with his vanity...that can change. YOUR guy, Obama could easily change his campaign slogan, from 'Yes We Can' to 'Well, It Could Have Been Worse!'...because that's his only rap....(other than, 'It was Bush's fault, and I'm inept at fixing it!' Save your partisan bullshit...this country is getting too far gone, for that crap...and the people KNOW it! the enthusiasm for both party's candidates is at an all time low. People don't want, nor are responding to your efforts to whoop them up about being excited about either one of these KNOWN LIARS! Wake up..throw out the booze, and smell the coffee!! GfS |
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Subject: RE: BS: Can we afford Democracy? From: GUEST,999 Date: 08 Jun 12 - 03:12 PM M, I also agree that the Democrats have fallen in line. I just don't see too many senators or congressmen/women overturning restrictive laws. The noose gets tighter and tighter--and that noose is around the throats of American citizens-at-large. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Can we afford Democracy? From: Don Firth Date: 08 Jun 12 - 03:15 PM One very good thing that Ayn Rand said was that last point in my post above. That one should use one's own judgment, not just accept what others say. That is what I do in general. And specifically in matters of politics. That's why GoofuS's accusations of my being "brain-washed" shows that he doesn't know diddly-squat about me. Or much of anything, really. Don Firth |
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Subject: RE: BS: Can we afford Democracy? From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity Date: 08 Jun 12 - 03:26 PM we must have cross-threaded....and I should have known that when one of you appear, the other is tagging along right behind....that's because Don's political activism has shrunk to just Bobert...who is a bit myopic, anyway. ..and take Ayn Rand and shove it. Both parties are in the toilet, speaking from the toilet, and who cares what kind of toilet paper they use? Do you think that, let's say in Communist China, when they want to further their agendas, do you think they whip out a book of Marx to plan their next move??...or pour over their spread sheets???? Not interested in your rationals to stir up hate and resentment, and fear and loathing..it's all small minded horse-crap! Do you think the far right, whips out their 'Atlas Shrugged' to calculate their next move???? Nooo...just another one of your introductions of a petty issue, to get distracted with...so YOU can talk about your latest 'Nothing'! Now before you get all 'excited' about how you imagine what you're going to say, and how it will have a MAJOR influence, on all the music world, why don't you whip out your copy of 'The Secret Life of Walter Mitty'???......and keep re-reading it!!! GfS |
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Subject: RE: BS: Can we afford Democracy? From: Don Firth Date: 08 Jun 12 - 04:21 PM Just wait, GoofuS. Just wait. If the Republicans get in, you'll really find out what Ayn Rand is all about. And you keep claiming that we are naive and brain-washed! SHEESH!!. ignoramus! Don Firth |
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Subject: RE: BS: Can we afford Democracy? From: Don Firth Date: 08 Jun 12 - 04:29 PM There were people like GoofuS in Germany in the 1930s who said, "Hitler? He's a pathetic little non-entity! I wouldn't worry about him!" Don Firth |
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Subject: RE: BS: Can we afford Democracy? From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity Date: 08 Jun 12 - 05:09 PM It's NOT about ideologies, Einstein..it's about control, and who thinks they have the most to gain about being on top of the heap! Why does Rockefeller think the Chinese model is the ideal one?? Do you think HE is chomping at the bit to work in a sweatshop? Why do you think Clinton, and other high ranking Democrats are taking swipes at Obama?...Ideology???.. Why did Obama push through NDAA?...freedom for all??..or, as he politically correctly chants, 'to level the playing field'?? Why are we in Afghanistan??..To 'liberate' them?? Why is a trillion dollars unaccounted for??...Because he was feeding the hungry??, or 'improving the economy'?? Why are the unemployment figures doctored lower??...To raise concerns about the trouble we're in??? Why was Jeremiah Wright offered money to keep his mouth shut??...because he had bad breath?? What was the reason for 'Fast and Furious??...To see where the guns went??...and to see, after the autopsies, if they were indeed the same ones??? Why hasn't this administration brought forth a budget in three years?? ...because they were all out improving the golf scores?? Why didn't Obama back the union effort in Wisconsin??...because he is brave??...and keeps his promises?? Why is Gitmo still opened??...because it's got a nice view of beachfront property?? ....and WHY do you FAIL to ask these questions of yourself???...because you are such a dedicated political 'activist' who cares?? Why is not the national dialogue NOT about FREEDOM??...Because it just slipped their minds?? ..and where in the hell did you put your 'Walter Mitty'???..on top of Bobert's phone number?? Yeah, WE CAN afford Democracy...as soon as people remember FREEDOM! ......(but we're distracted)...not that important...somebody is offering us a 'new entitlement'.....can't get my mind off of it..I'm SO excited........it's those 'other' bastards that don't want me to have it...Wahhhhhh....call the Wah-bulance!!....(but only if it's covered by Obamacare....) GfS |
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Subject: RE: BS: Can we afford Democracy? From: Don Firth Date: 08 Jun 12 - 05:33 PM Of COURSE it's about control. Nobody ever denied that. But If you think ideology has nothing to do with it, you're even more naïve and ignorant than you think we are. Don Firth |
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Subject: RE: BS: Can we afford Democracy? From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity Date: 08 Jun 12 - 05:37 PM here's a blast from the past...and still some don't have the foggiest of a clue!!!!!!! Subject: RE: No Real Choice in American Elections From: Little Hawk Date: 25 Oct 00 - 06:31 PM Interesting point, Jacob. You may be right about that... But the first post in response to this thread was the real answer...there is no real choice in American elections because money determines: 1. Who can run for office. 2. Who can afford a huge campaign. 3. Who can dominate the media. 4. Whose career and reputation will or will not be destroyed. 5. Whose life is on the line. Remember Martin Luther King? I mean BIG money. Corporate money. The USA is run by corporate robber barons who are exploiting almost the entire world with impunity, because...nobody in the general public knows who they even are!!! Or where they live. Or what they do. The politicians are their little puppets. A vote for either the Democrats or the Republicans is a vote for the Machine that is the tool of corporate money. A vote for the larger Canadian political parties is a vote for a branch plant of that same Machine. As for small parties like the Natural Law Party or the Green Party....they are not controlled by the Machine, but they haven't a hope of getting elected, because the Machine controls BIG money and the media. I voted Natural Law in the last 2 elections in Canada. Why? Their local candidate is a brilliant and extraordinary man, and their ideas are absolutely new and wonderful. I will not vote for the Machine. I wouldn't vote for the Democrats or Republicans if they got down on their knees and begged me. They don't need me, of course, so why would they care? Enough people will still go out and rubber stamp the Money Machine's ballot so that either Gush or Bore gets elected. No worries on that score. Big Brother is alive and well on Wall Street and in the corporate boardrooms and the head offices of the banks in New York, London, Zurich, and Paris. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Can we afford Democracy? From: Don Firth Date: 08 Jun 12 - 05:40 PM So your solution is "do nothing?" Gutless! And wrong. But of course you won't share your Great Plan for the simple reason that you don't have one. Don Firth P. S. See you later. I have a world to save. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Can we afford Democracy? From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity Date: 08 Jun 12 - 05:40 PM Oh, and those consumed by ideologies..that's for the 'little people'..sorta like those obsessed with playing Rubik's Cube. GfS |
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Subject: RE: BS: Can we afford Democracy? From: Bobert Date: 08 Jun 12 - 05:41 PM We are way beyond living in a "free" country, GfinS... Freedom is something that only a small segment of our population enjoy... Spend a little less time with your rich friends who think that FREEDOM is universal and a little more time around the half of America that lives one 125% of poverty or less and then come back and lecture us about freedom... You sound very much like a silver spooner who lectures the poor for being poor... Very condescending and narrow minded... B~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Can we afford Democracy? From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity Date: 08 Jun 12 - 05:42 PM Froth: "P. S. See you later. I have a world to save." Don't forget your cape..it's freshly washed and ironed, hanging by the door!!! GfS |
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Subject: RE: BS: Can we afford Democracy? From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity Date: 08 Jun 12 - 05:44 PM Quick Bobert!!..To the Batmobile!!! GfS |
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Subject: RE: BS: Can we afford Democracy? From: Don Firth Date: 08 Jun 12 - 06:16 PM Sarcasm. That's all he's got. Sarcasm. While he sits on his ass and does nothing but take pot shots. Like my neighbor's yappy little Yorkshire terrier. Nothing to add to the conversation other than interrupting the discussion with meaningless noise. Brain the size of a walnut. But he wants everyone to think he's the Hound of the Baskervilles. Don Firth |
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Subject: RE: BS: Can we afford Democracy? From: Bobert Date: 08 Jun 12 - 06:59 PM I found today's comments by David Brooks and E. J. Dione on this afternoons NPR politics show interesting... David seemed to think, or at least that is what he said, that the 7-1 $$$ advantage that Walker enjoyed had nothing to do with the election??? David, David, David??? I mean, that was about as dumb a thought as you have ever had... Yes, E.J. called him on it... B~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Can we afford Democracy? From: Sawzaw Date: 09 Jun 12 - 01:41 PM Not on Cspan: Internal Memo Confirms Big Giveaways In White House Deal With Big Pharma A memo obtained by the Huffington Post confirms that the White House and the pharmaceutical lobby secretly agreed to precisely the sort of wide-ranging deal that both parties have been denying over the past week. The memo, which according to a knowledgeable health care lobbyist was prepared by a person directly involved in the negotiations, lists exactly what the White House gave up, and what it got in return. It says the White House agreed to oppose any congressional efforts to use the government's leverage to bargain for lower drug prices or import drugs from Canada -- and also agreed not to pursue Medicare rebates or shift some drugs from Medicare Part B to Medicare Part D, which would cost Big Pharma billions in reduced reimbursements. In exchange, the Pharmaceutical Researchers and Manufacturers Association (PhRMA) agreed to cut $80 billion in projected costs to taxpayers and senior citizens over ten years. Or, as the memo says: "Commitment of up to $80 billion, but not more than $80 billion." Representatives from both the White House and PhRMA, shown the outline, adamantly denied that it reflected reality. PhRMA senior vice president Ken Johnson said that the outline "is simply not accurate." "This memo isn't accurate and does not reflect the agreement with the drug companies," said White House spokesman Reid Cherlin. Stories in the Los Angeles Times and the New York Times last week indicated that the administration was confirming that such a deal had been made. Critics on Capitol Hill and online responded with outrage at the reports that Obama had gone behind their backs and sold the reform movement short. Furthermore, the deal seemed to be a betrayal of several promises made by then-Sen. Obama during the presidential campaign, among them that he would use the power of government to drive down the costs of drugs to Medicare and that negotiations would be conducted in the open. And over the past several days, both the White House and PhRMA have offered a series of sometimes conflicting accounts of what happened in an attempt to walk back the story. The White House meeting took place on July 7th, as first reported that evening in the Wall Street Journal. Also on the same day, a health care lobbyist following the talks was provided the outline of the deal by a person inside the negotiations. That outline had been floating around K Street before being obtained by the Huffington Post. In order to learn more about its origin, HuffPost agreed not to reveal the name of the lobbyist who originally received it. "That is the PhRMA deal," said the lobbyist of the outline. He then clarified, "It was the PhRMA deal." The deal, as outlined in the memo: Commitment of up to $80 billion, but not more than $80 billion. 1. Agree to increase of Medicaid rebate from 15.1 - 23.1% ($34 billion) 2. Agree to get FOBs done (but no agreement on details -- express disagreement on data exclusivity which both sides say does not affect the score of the legislation.) ($9 billion) 3. Sell drugs to patients in the donut hole at 50% discount ($25 billion) This totals $68 billion 4. Companies will be assessed a tax or fee that will score at $12 billion. There was no agreement as to how or on what this tax/fee will be based. Total: $80 billion In exchange for these items, the White House agreed to: 1. Oppose importation 2. Oppose rebates in Medicare Part D 3. Oppose repeal of non-interference 4. Oppose opening Medicare Part B "Non-interference" is the industry term for the status quo, in which government-driven price negotiations are barred. In other words, the government is "interfering" in the market if it negotiates lower prices. The ban on negotiating was led through Congress in 2003 by then-Rep. Billy Tauzin (R-La.), who is now the head of PhRMA. The rebates reference is to Medicare overpayments Big Pharma managed to wrangle from the Republican Congress that Democrats are trying to recoup. The House bill would require Big Pharma to return some of that money. The rebate proposal would save $63 billion over ten years, according to the Congressional Budget Office. The White House, given the chance, declined to tell the Wall Street Journal for a July 17th article that it supported the effort to pursue the rebates. The Medicare Part B item refers to "infusion drugs," which can be administered at home. If they fall under Part B, Big Pharma gets paid more than under Part D. The agreement would leave infusion drugs in Part B. In the section on Big Pharma's concessions, "FOBs" refers to follow-on biological drugs. Democrats have pushed to make it easier to allow generic drug makers to produce cheaper versions of such drugs, an effort Big Pharma has resisted. The Senate health committee bill gives drug makers 12 years of market exclusivity, five more than the White House proposed. PhRMA's Johnson cast doubts on the provenance of the outline. "The memo, as described, is simply not accurate," he said in a statement. "Anyone could have written it. Unless it comes from our board of directors, it's not worth the paper it's written on. Clearly, someone is trying to short circuit our efforts to try and make health care reform a reality this year. That's not going to happen. Too much is at stake for both patients and the U.S. economy. Our new ads supporting health care reform are starting this week, and we are redoubling our efforts to drive awareness of why this issue is so important to America's future." Johnson added that "no outside lobbyists -- not a single one -- were ever involved in our discussions with the Senate Finance Committee or the White House so someone is blowing smoke." But the lobbyist who was given the outline defended its authenticity. And although the White House now says that drug price negotiations and reimportation were not actually discussed in the talks with PhRMA, the lobbyist said: "Well, that's bull -- that's baloney. That was part of the deal, for them not to push that." The new uncertainty surrounding the deal comes after House Speaker Nancy Pelosi (D-Calif.) has repeatedly said that her chamber is not bound by any agreement it is not a party to. On July 8th, the day after the Journal reported some elements of the deal, Energy and Commerce Committee Chairman Henry Waxman (D-Calif.) said in a public speech that his committee would not be tied down by the agreement. Before recess, he followed through. His committee passed a bill that allowed for re-importation and drug-price negotiations. In the Senate, Democrats Sherrod Brown (Ohio) and Byron Dorgan (N.D.) pressed White House officials at a closed-door meeting last week, asking whether the White House had tied the Senate's hands. The health care lobbyist said that what deal still exists is uncertain, as a result of House pressure. "Now the White House is backing away from it, as you know, because of pressure from the House, because the House was not a party to the deal," he said. "The Speaker put enormous pressure on the White House, [saying], 'We weren't a party to it and we reserve the right to do whatever we want.' And which they did in the House Energy and Commerce Committee bill, which led the White House to say, 'Well, maybe it's not cast in concrete.'" Obama is walking a tightrope here. He wants to keep PhRMA from opposing the bill, and benefits by having its support, which now includes a $150 million advertising campaign. That's a fortune in politics -- more than Republican presidential candidate John McCain spent on advertising during his entire campaign -- but it's loose change in the pharmaceutical business. Opponents of the deal with PhRMA hope that Obama is playing a multilayered game, making a deal in order to keep the drug makers in his camp for now, but planning to double-cross them in the end if he needs to in order to pass his signature initiative. Big Pharma, however, is still comfortable. "As far as the pharmaceutical industry, PhRMA and its member companies, yes, they say a deal is a deal. We'll see what happens," said the health care lobbyist. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Can we afford Democracy? From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity Date: 09 Jun 12 - 02:01 PM Thank you, Sawzaw!! You've done a service to us all...amidst certain people criticizing you!!! They just refuse to acknowledge the TRUTH!!! GfS |
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Subject: RE: BS: Can we afford Democracy? From: GUEST,999 Date: 09 Jun 12 - 02:17 PM Let's hope Will Rogers was right: Diplomacy is the art of saying 'nice doggie' until you can find a rock. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Can we afford Democracy? From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity Date: 09 Jun 12 - 02:30 PM ..or Adlai Stevenson's famous quote: "By the time a man is nominated for President, he's no longer fit for the job!" or Benjamin Franklin's: " He that is good for making excuses is seldom good for anything else." and his other one: "Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both." GfS |
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Subject: RE: BS: Can we afford Democracy? From: Sawzaw Date: 09 Jun 12 - 03:04 PM "How can they do it Amos??? It's called "Republicans"... Republicans are going for broke... No compromise... Just their way or the highway... Rig elections... Occupy cities... Bust unions... Wahtever it take to impose their views on everyone else... The American taliban...That's how it happened in Michigan... B~ " Michigan Democrat Jason Bauer pleads No Contest to Corruption Charges in fake Tea Party Scheme Former Oakland County Michigan Democratic party official Jason Bauer pleaded no contest on November 21, 2011 to five felony charges related to an alleged 2010 plan to place "fake" tea party candidates on multiple election ballots in Michigan, the Detroit Free Press reports. Under the alleged scheme, dummy third-party tea party candidates would help siphon conservative votes away from Republican candidates. The resulting split in the conservative vote would, according to the plan, boost the candidate on the Democratic ballot. Several of the people listed as tea party candidates said they didn't even know that they had been listed on the ballots, the newspaper reports. Bauer, the former operations director for the Oakland County Democrats, was charged in March with corruption in the tea party case, together with the county Democratic chairman, Mike McGuinness. Other related charges in the case included forging signatures on candidate affidavits and perjury. Bauer drew an additional charge of notary fraud in his indictment. McGuinness pleaded no contest to two felony charges last month. Adding insult to felony for the two defendants, the alleged Oakland County scheme wasn't even successful. The state Supreme Court disqualified the phony local tea-party slate prior to the elections. With the rise of the tea party in 2010, similar accusations of scheming Democratic officials backing bogus tea party candidates cropped up across the country. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Can we afford Democracy? From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity Date: 09 Jun 12 - 03:31 PM Wow!..That's a new one to me....but I don't put it past them! Bear in mine, I'm not a fan of the republican's either...but this crap, going on with the Democrats is pretty far out! doesn't surprise me, though, and rather indicative of the same deceptive lying that goes on here..and the refusal for a 'couple of them' to either back up their statements, and avoid comment, when caught with their pants down. Personally, I think they're in hiding...they've been getting quite a beating... more like getting the snot whipped out of them!! That's what ya' get for lying! GfS |
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Subject: RE: BS: Can we afford Democracy? From: Don Firth Date: 09 Jun 12 - 04:06 PM If you're trying to stick to the Marquess of Queensberry rules, but your opponent keeps trying to kick you in the balls, what are you going to do? Don Firth |
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Subject: RE: BS: Can we afford Democracy? From: GUEST,999 Date: 09 Jun 12 - 04:48 PM '"Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both."' That's a paraphrase of Jefferson I think. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Can we afford Democracy? From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity Date: 09 Jun 12 - 05:35 PM Here's the rules...which one??? Keep in mind, I'm not playing. I would much rather, that we regard ALL of us as Brothers to Love, rather than enemies to hate, and then conquer. ...................................................................... Marquess of Queensberry Rules To be a fair stand-up boxing match in a 24-foot ring, or as near that size as practicable. No wrestling or hugging (clinching) allowed. The rounds to be of three minutes duration, and one minute's time between rounds. If either man falls through weakness or otherwise, he must get up unassisted, 10 seconds to be allowed him to do so, the other man meanwhile to return to his corner, and when the fallen man is on his legs the round is to be resumed and continued until the three minutes have expired. If one man fails to come to the scratch in the 10 seconds allowed, it shall be in the power of the referee to give his award in favour of the other man. A man hanging on the ropes in a helpless state, with his toes off the ground, shall be considered down. No seconds or any other person to be allowed in the ring during the rounds. Should the contest be stopped by any unavoidable interference, the referee to name the time and place as soon as possible for finishing the contest; so that the match must be won and lost, unless the backers of both men agree to draw the stakes. The gloves to be fair-sized boxing gloves of the best quality and new. Should a glove burst, or come off, it must be replaced to the referee's satisfaction. A man on one knee is considered down and if struck is entitled to the stakes. That no shoes or boots with spikes or sprigs be allowed. [6] The contest in all other respects to be governed by revised London Prize Ring Rules. Instead of striving to 'justify' our personal political beliefs, why not, as a TEAM, get to the truth...and let the chips fall as they do? ....."and I raise you 25." ..and, I'm stayin' 'pat'! GfS |
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Subject: RE: BS: Can we afford Democracy? From: pdq Date: 09 Jun 12 - 07:04 PM "Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both." ~ Benjamin Franklin Ol' Ben also had a nice quote about how the whole system would fall apart when one citizen found out he could use the government to tax and seize what his neighbor had. I can't find the exact quote right now. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Can we afford Democracy? From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity Date: 09 Jun 12 - 10:30 PM Well BEST of luck!..When you find it, be sure to post it! Regards!! GfS |
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Subject: RE: BS: Can we afford Democracy? From: Sawzaw Date: 10 Jun 12 - 07:58 AM "Bust unions... Wahtever it take to impose their views on everyone else... The American taliban...That's how it happened in Michigan" Parents Forced to Pay Union Dues, Lawmaker Rakes In Health Care Money Michigan's "forced unionization" is not only taking money away from home health care workers, it's taking dollars out of the pockets of parents of the afflicted as well. Meanwhile, campaign records show that the lawmakers who seem to be helping keep the "forced unionization" alive got money from the union that benefits from the situation. The records also show his campaign received thousands of dollars from within the health care industry, including from sources believed to be supporters of the forced unionization. Robert Haynes and his wife, Patricia, take care of their cerebral palsy-stricken son and daughter in their Macomb Township home. Taxpayers help out with monthly checks to the Haynes family. The checks, which are sent by the state, allow them to keep their son and daughter at home instead of having them institutionalized. But some of the taxpayer dollars that are supposed to go to the Haynes family are being siphoned off. The state takes a $30 monthly deduction from the checks and sends it to the Service Employees International Union (SEIU). This deduction is the result of the forced unionization of home health care workers that came about in a deal between unions and politicians in Lansing. "We're not even home health care workers. We're just parents taking care of our kids," said Robert Haynes, a retired Detroit police officer. "Our daughter is 34 and our son is 30. They have cerebral palsy. They are basically like 6-month-olds in adult bodies. They need to be fed and they wear diapers. We could sure use that $30 a month that's being sent to the union." Capitol Confidential sent emails to the offices of Sen. Roger Kahn, R-Saginaw Twp., Gov. Rick Snyder, Senate Majority Leader Randy Richardville, R-Monroe, and House Appropriations Subcommittee on Community Health Chair Matt Lori, R-Constantine. The emails gave a very brief explanation of the Haynes' situation and asked the governor and the lawmakers if they approved of what is happening. Of those contacted, only Rep. Lori responded. "Do I approve of this? No," he wrote in an email. "I had believed that the bill (community health budget bill) passed that defunded it would end it." In this year's budget, the Legislature ended all funding to the Michigan Quality Community Care Council, which posed as the employer of the home health care workers. Two separate forced unionizations took place on Democrat Gov. Jennifer Granholm's watch. Both involved the creation of dummy employers and statewide union elections that were kept secret from the news media. It was believed the "forced unionization" would end when Gov. Granholm left office. However, in spite of efforts by the state Legislature to put an end to them, the deductions haven't stopped. Emails show that Sen. Kahn, chairman of the Michigan Senate Appropriations Committee, worked behind the scenes to keep the forced unionization of home health care workers intact, which, in turn, keeps the deductions flowing. Those emails were obtained by the Mackinac Center for Public Policy through a Freedom of Information Act request. According to campaign finance reports filed with the Michigan Secretary of State, Sen. Kahn received $2,500 from the SEIU in 2010. However, a review of the reported contributions to his campaign committee, Friends of Roger Kahn for Senate 2010, shows that he has received thousands of dollars from the health care industry. It should be noted that simply because a contribution came from within the health care industry, that doesn't automatically mean that its source supports the forced unionization of home health care workers. It should also be noted that Sen. Kahn is a physician. Sen. Kahn's campaign finance reports also show that he received multiple contributions from officials at Detroit Medical Center. The top donor in this group was DMC Senior Vice President David Katz, who contributed $2,000 to Sen. Kahn in 2010 and $1,500 in 2009. Katz was Gov. Granholm's first campaign manager. His wife, Jill Alper, was a chief campaign strategist for Gov. Granholm in 2002 and 2006. In fact, DMC's hierarchy is awash with ties to Gov. Granholm. Its CEO is former Wayne County Prosecutor Mike Duggan. Gov. Granholm served alongside Duggan as Wayne County corporate council before running for Michigan Attorney General in 1998. DMC's CFO is Jay Rising, Gov. Granholm's former state treasurer. Last month, the SEIU and DMC staged a rally together on issues pertaining to Medicare and Medicaid. Meanwhile, Haynes said his family is receiving no benefits whatsoever from allegedly belonging to the SEIU. The only impact it's having on them is the monthly loss of money through the dues deductions. "Nothing," Haynes said. "We're not getting anything from them. We've tried to contact them, and they don't even bother to respond. I don't even know what they could do to help. Considering the dues money we're sending them, maybe they should come over and babysit our kids so we could have one night out. "We take care of our kids at home," Haynes continued. "There aren't any working condition issues. There are no raises to negotiate. There aren't any union issues involved. But the money keeps being taken out of our checks anyway.". |
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Subject: RE: BS: Can we afford Democracy? From: Bobert Date: 10 Jun 12 - 10:09 AM Michigan: Now here's a shiny example of the way the Republicans would love to govern the entire country... Step in, fire the existing local government and put one of their blood suckers in to run the show... You could not have picked a worse article to post, Sawz... Keep up that fine work, ya' hear??? B;~) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Can we afford Democracy? From: GUEST Date: 10 Jun 12 - 12:02 PM Bobert, If Michigan was really a .."a shiny example of the way the Republicans would love to govern the entire country.."....how do you think the unions would have been able to, "Parents Forced to Pay Union Dues, Lawmaker Rakes In Health Care Money"...and.."Michigan's "forced unionization" is not only taking money away from home health care workers, it's taking dollars out of the pockets of parents of the afflicted as well." Like anything, unions have their good side..and bad. When an organization...any organization gets to a place of thinking they can get away with pulling this stuff, then it's time to reign them in a little..don't you think? It happens....you can't just say, "Well their unions, so I'm going to support whatever they want to do, no matter who they do it to."..When they abuse their purpose, they lose credibility. To keep them strong, and effective, they FIRST should control themselves, and keep to the purpose of the rank and file...not the 'fat cats' at the top....otherwise, stuff like this won't happen....and then we wouldn't have to listen to you whine about something so ridiculous.............................AGAIN!! GfS |
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Subject: RE: BS: Can we afford Democracy? From: GUEST,999 Date: 10 Jun 12 - 12:21 PM Thanks for the correction on that, pdq. I'd first heard it attributed to Jefferson--on Mudcat years back. Good to know it was old Ben. He had a prodigious output in the thinking department, and to think someone told him to go fly a kite. Sheesh. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Can we afford Democracy? From: pdq Date: 10 Jun 12 - 12:28 PM The quote is certainly Jeffersonian, ain't it. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Can we afford Democracy? From: GUEST,999 Date: 10 Jun 12 - 01:21 PM That it is. Watching this election and feeling no preference for either party in terms of long-range economic outcome vis-à-vis poor people, I worry that liberty is fast becoming a dictionary word and not a living reality in the USA. The present day Jeffersons have been mostly bought and paid for although shining examples of good still exist, Bernie Sanders being one such man, imo. These difficult times bring out the best and the worst, and unfortunately there may be more of the latter elected to positions of power and appointed to areas of influence. Your Republic will not be able to withstand such an assault. The US has come to perceive even its friends as potential enemies, and as Kissinger said, countries do not have friends, they have interests. It is a grave misfortune that Canada is following the US lead. I don't believe it's the people of the USA, I do believe it is your bankers, and how they exert so much influence on politics while not a mystery is certainly a conundrum. This may well be your last free election. I hope with all my heart is isn't, because if the world falls into the control of multinationals whose interests do not include words like humanity or freedom of choice with regard to representatives, then and only then is all lost, and this world's efforts to construct a humane framework for our earthly activities will have been for naught. When ya have a gun to yer head ya roll the dice. One thing I have learned in the course of my life: NEVER underestimate your opposition. There there be dragons. Anyway, I trust you are doing well, pdq. It is always a privilege to 'speak' with you. B |
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Subject: RE: BS: Can we afford Democracy? From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity Date: 10 Jun 12 - 02:15 PM Guest,999: "This may well be your last free election...." Correction: That was in 1960! GfS |
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Subject: RE: BS: Can we afford Democracy? From: GUEST,Lizzie Cornish Date: 10 Jun 12 - 02:25 PM Yes, we can afford 'Democracy', but we can't afford Dictatorships, which is what The Big Brother Democracy Reality Show has now become.. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Can we afford Democracy? From: Q (Frank Staplin) Date: 10 Jun 12 - 03:25 PM Singapore with its "limited democracy" is my candidate for the best. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Can we afford Democracy? From: Bobert Date: 10 Jun 12 - 07:07 PM Just to keep history in perspective: The '60 election was filled with back-room deals, trickery, deceit and nasty as any... And Lizzie-C hits the nail on the head... We may be one election away from being able to save our country from fascism... And I don't say that to sound reactionary or over emotional... As a student of history we have seen the ways that the radical conservatives have tightened the noose and rigged power for them going back to their big scare in the 60s... America needs a little time to contemplate the blueprint that these people have in mind 10-20 years down the road... If the American people know what they are up to then the American people will say, "Hell, no you won't"... But, sadly, I strongly believe that it is the radical conservatives game to lose... They have it rigged fairly air-tight... B~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Can we afford Democracy? From: Sawzaw Date: 10 Jun 12 - 10:03 PM "save our country from fascism" What is fascism? A governmental system led by a dictator having complete power, forcibly suppressing opposition and criticism, regimenting all industry, commerce, etc. Does that seem like the Obama regime? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Can we afford Democracy? From: Don Firth Date: 10 Jun 12 - 10:26 PM What is fascism? A governmental system led by a coalition of corporations. Ask Benito Mussolini, who pretty much invented it. Don Firth |
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Subject: RE: BS: Can we afford Democracy? From: Bobert Date: 10 Jun 12 - 10:37 PM Please excuse Sawz, Don... He is clueless... Doesn't understand anything and probably couldn't pass a GED test... Says his wife is a teacher... Either she is teaching creationism or Sawz is clueless as to what she might be teaching... No matter... Sawz is a fucking retard!!! Doesn't do history... Doesn't do economics... Doesn't do political science... Doesn't do science... Doesn't do much of anything... Kinda like a gnat... Just a buzzing in yer ear with Zero-IQ... And the beat goes on... What next, Sawz... Attack me for "stink bombs"??? (((((((((((((((((((BIG YAWN)))))))))))))))))))))) Bye... B~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Can we afford Democracy? From: Sawzaw Date: 10 Jun 12 - 11:18 PM Dear Bobert: You are the one that said you light stink bombs. Are you attacking me for saying what you said? Bobert - PM Date: 06 Jun 12 - 11:28 AM More hate and personal attacks... ((((((((((((yawn))))))))))))) Bobert:"Sawz is a fucking retard!!!" "Nice try, insane one..." "You are insane!!! End of discussion... Get help!!!" B~" "Doesn't understand anything." I understand that the West bank is bigger than Washington DC. Do you? "Doesn't do history." Come up with some Dixiecrats names yet Bobert? You did say there was shitload of them didn't you? "Doesn't do economics" Bobert claims "Clinton handed Bush a surplus" What year Bobert? You do economics don't you? How much? Tim Geithner's US Treasury website says the national deficit grew every year. Even Amos gave up trying to prove that propaganda. "Doesn't do political science" Benito Mussolini was a Socialist and Democrat. Ya see Bobert, or probably you don't see, You falsely accuse people of exactly the same thing you are doing. I am not going to mention any names because I have of policy of no personal attacks but you have watched those scenes in the movies and on TV where they are dragging someone down a hallway in a straight jacket and the guy is yelling "I'm not crazy. Everybody else is" Only your closest friends would confide things like this to you in order to help you out, not your enemies. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Can we afford Democracy? From: Bobert Date: 10 Jun 12 - 11:23 PM (((((((((((((((((((((Yawn))))))))))))))))))))))) Get a life, man... Have you no shame??? You impress no one here... Bye... B~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Can we afford Democracy? From: Sawzaw Date: 10 Jun 12 - 11:54 PM Do you speak for everybody too? I believe it is you that is attempting to impress people with your trivia that suddenly turns into referrals to Google when you are asked a question. "First of all, I am very rarely wrong!!! No brag, just pure fact!!!" Have you no shame? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Can we afford Democracy? From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity Date: 11 Jun 12 - 03:36 AM I posted this a while ago...I think it needs repeating: I'm a Communist sympathizer, I know it makes me wiser, To be across the sea, To see what those people, Really think of me.. When I jump into their brain.. I know fighting so insane, 'cause we're basically the same, As anyone knows.. A rose is a rose, is arose. I', a Capitalist sympathizer, I know it makes me wiser, To try to change the hearts.. Of those at home.. 'Cause when we're apart, We're so alone. Just look in all the midst, Of a bunch of card carrying capitalists, But what I'm really seein'.. Is another human being.. Tryin' desperately hard to be free. Who ever calls another,"A dirty Communist mother.." Is living in the past, somehow, He's afraid of 'now'.. He's all involved with money... "Well now, payin' bills ain't funny," You can't live by bread alone.... Ya' need a little toast.... And the best things in life, Cost the most. That's why I'm a 'human sympathizer' The 'best things will never make you wiser, friend It's best to be.... No thing you see.... Then you'll be...... Entirely free..... but because of fear... Not many hear...... So to those few........................................ .....................................................I love you! .......................................................................................... GfS P.S. I'm not with the party.............. ..............I'm with the band! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Can we afford Democracy? From: dick greenhaus Date: 11 Jun 12 - 12:28 PM I guess an analogous situation would be if the Federal Government solved the problem of States in financial trouble by appointing a Dictator to supplant the State's elected government. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Can we afford Democracy? From: GUEST Date: 12 Jun 12 - 03:01 PM I messed up the verse, when I posted it. I've corrected it...and fixed the typos.,,,and put it at the bottom part of this post. (I was only going from memory..sorry...you can delete the other one.). ...................................................................... Dick Greenhaus: "I guess an analogous situation would be if the Federal Government solved the problem of States in financial trouble by appointing a Dictator to supplant the State's elected government." Ahh...Dick, that's where might have been thrown off!....We have a Dictator, as you described, so to speak, but the people don't see him(them), nor hardly know them......and THEY are the ones, who decide who is going to run to be elected, with the 'other' guy, who they also decided on who can run and be elected....so either way, THEY win!...We actually lose....because we only get to vote for the 'personality/spokesman/actor/entertainer'. The reason a lot of Democrats are going through the 'blues' now, is because the guys who write the scripts, have decided to write Obama off the soap opera series...or at least trying. Somehow, he didn't stick to the script right, or something...started 'doing his own character'....Now they got a 'new hero' in the dressing room..puttin' on the make up, for the camera, and the public....actually, from the 'trailers' or ads for the previews, the script is remarkably similar to the one they used last time around...REALLY...with John McCain and Obama....the scripts and topics are pretty much the same....but this time, they're tryin' to give Romney Obama's lines....check it out yourself!! Don, you're out there...check it..it'll blow you away!(the 'out of touch' stuff..right out of last time)...(uncanny). ......................................................................... I posted this a while ago...I think it needs repeating: I'm a Communist sympathizer, I know it makes me wiser, To pretend to be, across the sea, To see what those people, Really think of me.. When I jump into their brain.. I know fighting so insane, 'cause we're basically the same, As anyone knows.. A rose is a rose, is a rose. I'm, a Capitalist sympathizer, I know it makes me wiser, To try to change the hearts.. Of those at home.. 'Cause when we're apart, We're so alone. Just look in through the midst, Of a bunch of card carrying capitalists, But what I'm really seein'.. Is another human being.. Tryin' desperately hard to be free. Who ever calls another,"A dirty Communist mother.." Is living in the past, somehow, He's afraid of 'now'.. He's all involved with money... "Well now, payin' bills ain't funny," You can't live by bread alone.... Ya' need a little toast.... And the best things in life, Really cost the most. That's why I'm a 'human sympathizer' The 'best things will never make you wiser, friend It's best to be.... No thing you see.... Then you'll be...... Entirely free..... but because of fear... Not many hear...... So to those few.......... I love you! .......................................................................................... GfS P.S. I'm not with the party.............. ..............I'm with the band! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Can we afford Democracy? From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity Date: 12 Jun 12 - 03:04 PM LAST POST WAS MINE. FORGOT TO SIGN IN....AND....(see below) I messed up the verse, when I posted it. I've corrected it...and fixed the typos.,,,and put it at the bottom part of this post. (I was only going from memory..sorry...you can delete the other one.). ...................................................................... Dick Greenhaus: "I guess an analogous situation would be if the Federal Government solved the problem of States in financial trouble by appointing a Dictator to supplant the State's elected government." Ahh...Dick, that's where might have been thrown off!....We have a Dictator, as you described, so to speak, but the people don't see him(them), nor hardly know them......and THEY are the ones, who decide who is going to run to be elected, with the 'other' guy, who they also decided on who can run and be elected....so either way, THEY win!...We actually lose....because we only get to vote for the 'personality/spokesman/actor/entertainer'. The reason a lot of Democrats are going through the 'blues' now, is because the guys who write the scripts, have decided to write Obama off the soap opera series...or at least trying. Somehow, he didn't stick to the script right, or something...started 'doing his own character'....Now they got a 'new hero' in the dressing room..puttin' on the make up, for the camera, and the public....actually, from the 'trailers' or ads for the previews, the script is remarkably similar to the one they used last time around...REALLY...with John McCain and Obama....the scripts and topics are pretty much the same....but this time, they're tryin' to give Romney Obama's lines....check it out yourself!! Don, you're out there...check it..it'll blow you away!(the 'out of touch' stuff..right out of last time)...(uncanny). ......................................................................... I posted this a while ago...I think it needs repeating: I'm a Communist sympathizer, I know it makes me wiser, To pretend to be, across the sea, To see what those people, Really think of me.. When I jump into their brain.. I know fighting so insane, 'cause we're basically the same, As anyone knows.. A rose is a rose, is a rose. I'm, a Capitalist sympathizer, I know it makes me wiser, To try to change the hearts.. Of those at home.. 'Cause when we're apart, We're so alone. Just look in through the midst, Of a bunch of card carrying capitalists, But what I'm really seein'.. Is another human being.. Tryin' desperately hard to be free. Who ever calls another,"A dirty Communist mother.." Is living in the past, somehow, He's afraid of 'now'.. He's all involved with money... "Well now, payin' bills ain't funny," You can't live by bread alone.... Ya' need a little toast.... And the best things in life, Really cost the most. That's why I'm a 'human sympathizer' The 'best things will never make you wiser, friend It's best to be.... No thing you see.... Then you'll be...... Entirely free..... but because of fear... Not many hear...... So to those few.......... I love you! .......................................................................................... GfS P.S. I'm not with the party.............. ..............I'm with the band! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Can we afford Democracy? From: Don Firth Date: 12 Jun 12 - 05:18 PM That's quite a stutter you have, GoofuS. Have you thought about seeing a speech therapist? Don Firth |
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Subject: RE: BS: Can we afford Democracy? From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity Date: 12 Jun 12 - 05:32 PM Lol..I typed one...then re-read it the next day..and thought, "Yikes, I left out some words,(screwed up the meter)...and as I recited it back to myself, I noticed, "Wait, I left out_______ and _______"...so I went to fix it...then forgot to sign in, because I was focused on fixing the text.....so I saw it, and fixed it again......................................................................................................I hope! GfS |
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Subject: RE: BS: Can we afford Democracy? From: Bobert Date: 12 Jun 12 - 07:10 PM BTW, Don... If either GFinS or Sawz ever make any thought out posts, PM me... I am bored with both of them and just skip over their stuff... Thanks, B~ p.s. If GfinS posts any good music, let me know... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Can we afford Democracy? From: Sawzaw Date: 12 Jun 12 - 08:05 PM Huff Puff. You heard Boss Hog Bobert speaking for you and telling you what to do. What to pay attention to and what to ignore. I say folks have the right read anything they want, believe it or not believe it and post whatever comments they want. "Republicans are going for broke... No compromise... Just their way or the highway... Rig elections The American taliban...That's how it happened in Michigan" Maybe you would like to draw your own conclusions about what happened in Michigan. Sam Riddle: Michigan Democrats Paid Me $50K to Keep Quiet, FBI Asked Me About Dem Gov Mike Cox, was also an ally and political crony of Democrat Michigan Governor Jennifer Granholm and deposed Detroit ex-Mayor Kwame Kilpatrick's father, Bernard, when they worked together for another Detroit political figure. Riddle is a former aide to Detroit City Councilwoman Monica Conyers, who pleaded guilty last month to bribery in the same case of contract corruption that Riddle faces. Jim Rosendall, a former representative of Synagro, also pleaded guilty to conspiracy, admitting he paid a Detroit council member prior to a vote on the Synagro contract. Conyers and her former aide Riddle join the other 6 alleged accused of bribery to aide Houston-based Synagro Technologies confirm a multimillion dollar contract with Detroit. The other officials include former mayor Kwame Kilpatrick, lobbying firm owner Bernard Kilpatrick, former Detroit CAO and CIO Derrick Miller, Kilpatrick's former assistant and later political consultant Mike Tardif, developer and consultant Rayford Jackson and lobbyist Akunna Olumba. The contract sparking the scandal was set to award Synagro with a $47 million annual contract to recycle biosolids from the city's waste treatment plant Congressman John Conyers, Michigan Democrat and chairman of the House Judiciary Committee, has taken to introducing his wife by her maiden name, Monica Eskers. But in Detroit, where she's now being squeezed by the feds to accept a plea deal ahead of being indicted for bribery, she's known as Detroit City Council President Pro Tem Monica Conyers. Detroit media have reported that the councilwoman was videotaped accepting a bribe payment – which with others totaled $6,000 – to buy her vote for a $1.2 billion city sludge-disposal contract. Conyers originally opposed the contract, but changed her mind, swinging her vote for a 5-4 approval. Riddle said the Democrats paid him not to say negative things about Gov. Jennifer Granholm. FBI agents also questioned Riddle about connections between Granholm and business consultant Bernard N. Kilpatrick, the father of then-Detroit Mayor Kwame Kilpatrick, said Riddle, the former chief of staff to Councilwoman Monica Conyers. Granholm and Bernard Kilpatrick worked together in the administration of the late Wayne County Executive Edward H. McNamara in the 1990s. Federal agents have been investigating payments made to Bernard Kilpatrick's consulting firm, Maestro Associates LLC, by companies seeking contracts with the city of Detroit while his son was mayor. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Can we afford Democracy? From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity Date: 12 Jun 12 - 09:26 PM Sounds like business as usual...with the dumber ones being caught...or should I say, the disposable ones? Sounds like Bobert is having to pretend not to read the posts, because he ran out of talking points...hmmm...I'll have to post some blues for him...Well, it ain't EXACTLY the 'blues'...but somewhat fitting.... Oh well...we love you Bobster! GfS |
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Subject: RE: BS: Can we afford Democracy? From: Don Firth Date: 12 Jun 12 - 10:38 PM Well, no. After so much meaningless chatter, the intelligent folks simply tune out. Same old crapola. Heard it all before. Don Firth |
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Subject: RE: BS: Can we afford Democracy? From: Bobert Date: 12 Jun 12 - 10:41 PM That song sucked... And I am a big J.L. fan... B~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Can we afford Democracy? From: Sawzaw Date: 12 Jun 12 - 10:49 PM What cracks me up is the guy endorsed by Obama got busted twice for corruption. Facisim is "A governmental system led by a coalition of corporations"? HMMM. GM is now owned by the taxpayers or maybe the other way around. The government pays people $10,000 bucks to buy one of the 10 biggest corporate product flops of 2011. Taxpayer owned GM invests $1 billion in a new factory in Australia Health care industry writes the 'Affordable Health Care Act' $80 Billion deal with the government and big Pharma. Solar energy company gets $527 million from the taxpayers before it goes belly up. Government diverts repayment of TARP loans that were supposed to be returned only to the treasury to the cash for clunkers for the benefit of the auto industry. Obama's jobs Czar is also the head honcho of GE whom owns MSNBC and recently invested $3 billion in Brazil. Why not the US? Biggest recipient of Banking industry campaign donations gets to write new regulations for the banking industry. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Can we afford Democracy? From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity Date: 13 Jun 12 - 05:12 AM I agree about the song...there was another that I was looking for...but I thought that the song title was appropriate. I'll give you another, better one...just for you..just 'cuz we love you!...BTW, just like the cat episode, you can re-channel the bummer, or possible perceived bummer of the Obama news(and there is going to be more to come) into your blues licks....If ya' focus on the two, put it together, you should kick ass beyond belief!!...Maybe you'd plat so fucking good, that even the Republicans would like you!....then, in turn, you'd like them!..Keep it up, and even a Tea Party few would like you....keep it up, and they might even listen to you...or ask an opinion.....just about that time, you flash, "Hmmm, it's the music...God gave it to me..that's even better than what the government can turn me on to....I think I might change my tune, a little................. Waving...Great 'Luck', GfS |
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Subject: RE: BS: Can we afford Democracy? From: Bobert Date: 13 Jun 12 - 08:16 AM I don't need Obama to inspire my blues 'cause the blues is 99% about women and other natural disasters... lol... B;~) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Can we afford Democracy? From: GUEST Date: 13 Jun 12 - 03:22 PM The Republican agenda has been going on for a long time. City managers are part of the plan. It's on the ALEC wish list. What gives is that the American public has been hoodwinked by thinking that the country needs a "Dear Leader". What we need to do as Americans is give up the need to control the world and take care of each other by supplying better public education for all Americans so that they can actually participate in Democracy. We can afford to spend our tax money on infrastructure, public works, labor unions and shore up the "commons". We can replace the authority figures with compassionate representatives in government because government is only as good as the people who run it. We can respect the job our teachers are doing to enlighten stupid Americans who would vote for a Scott Walker. We can support Occupy Wall Street, a true attempt at Democracy in action. We can use diplomacy instead of militarism to solve our international problems. Being the big international bully will result in futility. We can redesign our failing electoral system and bring it in line with the Constitution. Instead of talking about "getting even" or "outrage", we can work to cultivate empathy and understanding of the flaws in the American Capitalist system and devalue money as a means of solving our problems. We can stop supporting businesses that enslave and entrap us in destructive buying patterns and support those businesses that will promote healthy life styles and nurture the people who have been disenfranchised, kicked out of their homes, on the street, taken off the voter roles by GOP governors, and non-violently participate in street demos. Democracy is only dead if we let it die. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Can we afford Democracy? From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity Date: 13 Jun 12 - 03:36 PM Well, Bobert, we might certainly agree about THAT one!..hmmm, women...mmm...how about a woman that's really messed up Obama...how about Valerie Jarrett?..I mean if you think that Obama's woes were something other than who he's workin' for.. GfS |
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Subject: RE: BS: Can we afford Democracy? From: akenaton Date: 13 Jun 12 - 03:44 PM Nice post guest, but it's a really bad idea...."democracy". We have all become accustomed to wanting and getting whatever we wish for....."entitlement". We need to re-learn the old truths that as a secies we must work together to survive, and ditch "divisivness". Life is worth nothing without the struggle, thats what makes us strong and mentally equiped to consruct a sustainable society |
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Subject: RE: BS: Can we afford Democracy? From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity Date: 13 Jun 12 - 06:27 PM Mmmm, i don't know...'democracy' ORIGINALLY was meant to make the people, as in 'We the People' sovereign, instead of a king, or a Pope. The problem is that those who think of a monarchy, or ruling class, weren't about to let this one get by them, and so they worked on controlling the money and banking system....and even though we were warned about it, REPEATEDLY, it was rammed through by appealing to the ideologues, of the times, that made it sound appealing. Now, instead of a government who mints money, as a service to provide a means of exchange, we have private bankers, who print money and 'sell' it to the government, with interest..and has become a way for those very same bankers to provide control for themselves, instead of a currency, for the means of exchange!!! Those same bankers now influence the 'lawmakers' to champion various noble sounding 'causes' and 'programs' to remedy the 'causes'..so they can 'fund' them with their interest bearing printed money....and we get stuck with the bill...and bicker about what NEW program we need foisted on us!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!....Through those 'noble' well meaning, do-gooders, called parties!!!.....and who funds the parties??...The private banksters who are printing fiat money, and charging us interest! GfS |
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Subject: RE: BS: Can we afford Democracy? From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity Date: 13 Jun 12 - 07:37 PM ....and that's the short, simple version!!!!...as long as we have our 'goodies', we'll just be quietly content....but...... GfS |
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Subject: RE: BS: Can we afford Democracy? From: Bobert Date: 13 Jun 12 - 07:42 PM GUEST 3:22 gets it... D- for the subsequent posts... B~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Can we afford Democracy? From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity Date: 13 Jun 12 - 09:36 PM Actually, I agree with that, too...EXCEPT the part that this is ONLY the Republican Party. The Democrats are in it up to their eyeballs, too. Glass-Steagal??? Who was that for??...The American public?? Your angst is understandable, but you've weakened it by only aiming at half the problem....well, not even half...because in doing that, you are missing the real culprits, by bickering between the two parties...and that's by design!!! Obama has been blaming Bush through his whole term, because Bush was the President before him..if he wins re-election, what's he going to do then??...blame his first term??????????....oh wait..that means blaming himself! If Obama wants support from the people, it would serve him, and the country WELL, if he'd just level with us all, and tell us what's REALLY going on, behind the scenes...but he isn't, and won't..the conflict of his ideology and his financiers keep him from doing just that..and..we lose! GfS |
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Subject: RE: BS: Can we afford Democracy? From: Bobert Date: 13 Jun 12 - 09:46 PM Glass-Steagal??? Citi-corp and the Republicans... Who pushed this it's repeal??? GfinS... 1. Citi-corp + Republican Senator 2. Citi-corp and a Dem Senator Pick one, GfinS... But you won't... You don't do truth... You don't do facts... You do Tea!!! This entire Glass-Steagal has TEA dripping all over it... It is one of their favorite Obamaa-hate BIG LIES... Check it out... GfTeaS... B~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Can we afford Democracy? From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity Date: 13 Jun 12 - 10:10 PM Who signed it, big mouth???..BILL CLINTON! GfS |
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Subject: RE: BS: Can we afford Democracy? From: Sandy Mc Lean Date: 13 Jun 12 - 10:55 PM What is this so called "democracy" that we can or can't afford? Is it the right to elect a dictator for a fixed term instead of one for life? Is it the right to guide a government that will respond to our wishes or at least the wishes of the majority throughout its term? Do we as a majority have the right to de-throne a government that was elected by lies that were never enacted once they were elected? I am not a citizen of the USA but bullshit written by slave-owning founding fathers about all being created equal sticks in my craw! In ancient Greece citizens could individually vote on issues but women and slaves were excluded, so democracy was born in the midst of injustice! There is no true democracy on the face of Earth today, but it is a goal that I would like to see happen! As long as money mongers control our world it will not happen within my lifetime and that saddens me! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Can we afford Democracy? From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity Date: 13 Jun 12 - 11:35 PM Sandy McLean: "There is no true democracy on the face of Earth today, but it is a goal that I would like to see happen! As long as money mongers control our world it will not happen within my lifetime and that saddens me!" Amen!!! Perhaps you could explain why to our dear partisan friends!. My contention is the big money mongers, pretty much OWN the two parties..and even some of the off-shoots, and they keep passing legislation and bills to either enrich themselves or gain more power and control! Regards, Sandy! GfS |
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Subject: RE: BS: Can we afford Democracy? From: Bobert Date: 14 Jun 12 - 08:26 AM Who pushed it, GfinS??? Cat got your tongue??? Doesn't fit the Tea-narrative??? Inconvenient truth??? Normal for you and yer TeaBuds... B~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Can we afford Democracy? From: Bobert Date: 14 Jun 12 - 08:29 AM Oh, here's the other half of the Tea-narrative... The '08 near collapse of the economy was 'caused by the Dodd-Frank Bill that regulates Wall Street... Problem with that BIG-TEA-LIE is that Dodd-Frank didn't exist in 2008??? B~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Can we afford Democracy? From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity Date: 14 Jun 12 - 09:20 AM I posted a post from Little hawk, from the year 2000 that says the same thing i've been saying, Bobert..Don might point it out to you. Just because YOU haven't flashed what is really going on, doesn't mean you can try to stuff everything you can't explain, by blaming it on the Tea party, or anyone else. I do NOT belong to ANY party, or any offshoot! You are the one who is avoiding the truth!! now, I guess you're going to blame somebody for THIS ..which broke the same day as mere 'coincidence'!!!! ????. Just wait till this story REALLY comes out!!! Look, guy, things are REALLY screwed up, and you are barking up the wrong tree! GfS |
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Subject: RE: BS: Can we afford Democracy? From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity Date: 14 Jun 12 - 04:11 PM Noow You know, Bernie Sanders ain't a Tea party guy.... try this one, guys!!! GfS |
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Subject: RE: BS: Can we afford Democracy? From: Sawzaw Date: 15 Jun 12 - 09:18 AM Big hate lie? Hate hate hate lie lie lie. He hates him. He lies. Somebody has become bent like Tweed said. All they can do any more is shout hate hate lie lie you're crazy and it gets worse day by day. Glass Steagle was repealed long before the TEA party was even a thought. About 10 years before. Try some facts for a change. S. 900 was passed on November 4, 1999, by the House in a vote of 362-57 and by the Senate in a vote of 90-8. President Clinton signed the bill into law on November 12, 1999, as the Gramm-Leach-Bliley Financial Modernization Act of 1999. 258 Republicans 57.2% and 193 Democrats 42.8% voted for the bill. President Clinton: Today I am pleased to sign into law S. 900, the Gramm-Leach-Bliley Act. This historic legislation will modernize our financial services laws, stimulating greater innovation and competition in the financial services industry. America's consumers, our communities, and the economy will reap the benefits of this Act. Beginning with the introduction of an Administration-sponsored bill in 1997, my Administration has worked vigorously to produce financial services legislation that would not only spur greater competition, but also protect the rights of consumers and guarantee that expanded financial services firms would meet the needs of America's underserved communities. Passage of this legislation by an overwhelming, bipartisan majority of the Congress suggests that we have met that goal. The Gramm-Leach-Bliley Act makes the most important legislative changes to the structure of the U.S. financial system since the 1930s. Financial services firms will be authorized to conduct a wide range of financial activities, allowing them freedom to innovate in the new economy. The Act repeals provisions of the Glass-Steagall Act that, since the Great Depression, have restricted affiliations between banks and securities firms. It also amends the Bank Holding Company Act to remove restrictions on affiliations between banks and insurance companies. It grants banks significant new authority to conduct most newly authorized activities through financial subsidiaries. Removal of barriers to competition will enhance the stability of our financial services system. Financial services firms will be able to diversify their product offerings and thus their sources of revenue. They will also be better equipped to compete in global financial markets. Although the Act grants financial services firms greater latitude to innovate, it also contains important safety and soundness protections. While the Act allows common ownership of banking, securities, and insurance firms, it still requires those activities to be conducted separately within an organization, subject to functional regulation and funding limitations. Both the Vice President and I have insisted that any financial services modernization legislation must benefit American communities by preserving and strengthening community reinvestment. I am very pleased that the Act accomplishes this goal. The Act establishes an important prospective principle: banking organizations seeking to conduct new nonbanking activities must first demonstrate a satisfactory record of meeting the credit needs of all the communities they serve, including low- and moderate-income communities. Thus, the law will for the first time prohibit expansion into activities such as securities and insurance underwriting unless all of the organization's banks and thrifts maintain a "satisfactory" or better rating under the Community Reinvestment Act (CRA). The CRA will continue to apply to all banks and thrifts, and any application to acquire or merge with a bank or thrift will continue to be reviewed under CRA, with full opportunity for public comment. The bill offers further support for community development in the form of a new Program for Investment in Microentrepreneurs (PRIME), to provide technical help to low- and moderate income microentrepreneurs. The Act includes a limited extension of the CRA examination cycle for small banks and thrifts with outstanding or satisfactory CRA records, but expressly preserves the ability of regulators to examine these institutions at any time for reasonable cause, and does not affect regulators' authority in connection with an application. The bill also includes a requirement for disclosure and reporting of CRA agreements. The Act and its legislative history have been crafted to alleviate burdens on banks and thrifts and those working to stimulate investment in underserved communities. It is critical that depository institutions and their community partners continue efforts that have led to the highest home ownership rate in our history, including a particularly dramatic increase in recent years in minority and low-income home ownership. My Administration remains committed to ensuring that implementation of these provisions does not in any way diminish community reinvestment, and stands ready to remedy any problems that may arise. Last May, I proposed strong and enforceable Federal privacy protections for consumers' financial information. I am very pleased that the Act provides a number of the new protections that I proposed. Under the Act, financial institutions must clearly disclose their privacy policies to customers up front and annually, allowing consumers to make truly informed choices about privacy protection. For the first time, consumers will have an absolute right to know if their financial institution intends to share or sell their personal financial data, either within the corporate family or with an unaffiliated third-party. Consumers will have the right to "opt out" of such information sharing with unaffiliated third parties. These protections constitute a significant change from existing law, under which information on everything from account balances to credit card transactions can be shared or sold by a financial institutions without a customer's knowledge or consent, including the sale of information to telemarketers and other nonfinancial firms. Of equal importance, these restrictions have teeth. For the first time, the Act allows privacy protection to be included in regular bank examinations. The Act grants regulators full authority to issue privacy rules and to use the full range of their enforcement powers in case of violations. The Act grants new, and needed, rulemaking authority under the existing Fair Credit Reporting Act. In addition, it establishes new penalties to prevent pretext calling, by which unscrupulous persons use deceptive practices to determine the financial assets of consumers. The Act will specifically allow the States to provide stronger privacy protections if they choose to do so. Although these are significant steps forward, we will continue to press for even greater privacy protections—especially choice about whether personal financial information can be shared within a corporate family. Privacy is fundamental to Americans, and to my Administration. The Act also streamlines supervision of bank holding companies and preserves financial regulation along functional lines. Activities generally will be overseen by those regulators who are most knowledgeable about a given financial activity, including the Securities and Exchange Commission for securities activities and State regulators for insurance activities. Given the broad new affiliations permissible under this legislation, I fully expect our regulators to work together to protect the integrity of our financial system. The bill also promotes the safety and soundness of our financial system by enhancing the traditional separation of banking and commerce. The bill limits the ability of thrift institutions to affiliate with commercial companies. There are provisions of the Act that concern me. The Act's redomestication provisions could allow mutual insurance companies to avoid State law protecting policyholders, enriching insiders at the expense of consumers. We intend to monitor any redomestications and State law changes closely, returning to the Congress if necessary. The Act's Federal Home Loan Bank (FHLB) provisions fail to focus the FHLB System more on lending to community banks and less on arbitrage activities and short-term lending that do not advance its public purpose. The Act raises certain constitutional issues with respect to the insurance privacy provisions in title V. The Act might be construed as contrary to Supreme Court decisions that hold that the Congress may not compel States to enact or administer a Federal regulatory program. I interpret section 505(c) of the Act, however, as providing States with a constitutionally permissible choice of whether to participate in such a program. States that choose to participate will gain the powers listed in section 505(c); States that decline will not. I believe that the Congress, in giving States a choice (in section 505(c)) whether to "adopt regulations to carry out this subtitle," intended to allow States to accept or decline all of the rulemaking and enforcement obligations assigned to State authorities under sections 501-505 of the Act. This interpretation is consistent with the explanation in the conference report that both the rulemaking and enforcement roles of State insurance authorities are voluntary not mandatory. Section 332(b) of S. 900 provides for Presidential appointment of the board of directors of the National Association of Registered Agents and Brokers (NARAB), established by the bill in the event that certain stated conditions occur. Because members of the NARAB board would exercise significant Federal governmental authority under those conditions, they must be appointed as Officers pursuant to the Appointments Clause of the Constitution. Under section 332(b)(1) of the bill, the President would be required to make such appointments from lists of candidates recommended by the National Association of Insurance Commissioners. The Appointments Clause, however, does not permit such restrictions to be imposed upon the President's power of appointment. I therefore do not interpret the restrictions of section 332(b)(1) as binding and will regard any such lists of recommended candidates as advisory only. The Gramm-Leach-Bliley Act is a major achievement that will benefit American consumers, communities, and businesses of all sizes. I thank all of those individuals who played a role in the development and passage of this historic legislation. WILLIAM J. CLINTON The White House, November 12, 1999. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Can we afford Democracy? From: Sawzaw Date: 15 Jun 12 - 09:38 AM White House Affirms Deal on Drug Cost By DAVID D. KIRKPATRICK Published: August 5, 2009 WASHINGTON — Pressed by industry lobbyists, White House officials on Wednesday assured drug makers that the administration stood by a behind-the-scenes deal to block any Congressional effort to extract cost savings from them beyond an agreed-upon $80 billion. Drug industry lobbyists reacted with alarm this week to a House health care overhaul measure that would allow the government to negotiate drug prices and demand additional rebates from drug manufacturers....... Obama gives powerful drug lobby a seat at healthcare table The pharmaceutical industry, once condemned by the president as a source of healthcare problems, has become a White House partner. By Tom Hamburger August 4, 2009 As a candidate for president, Barack Obama lambasted drug companies and the influence they wielded in Washington. He even ran a television ad targeting the industry's chief lobbyist, former Louisiana congressman Billy Tauzin, and the role Tauzin played in preventing Medicare from negotiating for lower drug prices. Since the election, Tauzin has morphed into the president's partner. He has been invited to the White House half a dozen times in recent months. There, he says, he eventually secured an agreement that the administration wouldn't try to overturn the very Medicare drug policy that Obama had criticized on the campaign trail. "The White House blessed it," Tauzin............. "We will not take a dime from Washington lobbyists or special interest PACs.... We're going to change how Washington works. They will not fund my party.... They will not run our White House. And they will not drown out the voice of the American people when I'm president of the United States of America." |
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Subject: RE: BS: Can we afford Democracy? From: GUEST,999 Date: 15 Jun 12 - 09:58 AM I think Obama might have had some ideals left when he got to Washington, but certain economic realities and the Golden Rule--who has the gold makes the rules--have become his mantra because there was no choice. I suppose something is better than nothing. The more Obama is seen as the problem the more will the real problem--corrupt financial markets, corrupt representatives, corrupt courts and subsequently corrupt laws--skulk behind the curtains and do as they have done for decades. Obama may be the one person who could fend off totalitarian rule in the USA, but for that he needs time. The people of the USA will be crushed within months if resistance does break out, and since media keeps people happy now, most Americans wouldn't experience any real change. Stupidity is as stupidity does. I agree with Saws and GfS with regard to the endgame, not because Obama is necessarily a bad man, but because it is close to impossible to override the various security organizations in the US. There are more than a few agendas being carried out, and I am not assured by anything I've seen for a few years that it will be good for the notion of democracy. Dick asked an important question in his first post: Can we afford Democracy? It depends. If we want two cars, electric razors, hair dryers, electric tooth brushes, lights on in every room, occupied or not, disposable machines that are defunct even before they are manufactured, genetically engineered foods, red slime, drugs prescribed by doctors that are sold for many times their cost, then NO, we can't afford democracy. But the real question as I see it is 'can we afford freedom?'. Listening to most people here from either side of the equation, it seems you all think yes. Now, what will you do about that? Because shouting at each other ain't gonna get 'er done, capiche? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Can we afford Democracy? From: Stringsinger Date: 15 Jun 12 - 04:30 PM "Entitlement" is a myth. Workers have earned the benefits by hard labor. Corporate bosses have not earned their keep for the amount of money they make. When the US decides to treat its citizens with respect and dignity honoring hard work and concern for others, then it might be the greatest country in the world. But the GOP is keeping that from ever happening. We are #88 on the index of the most peaceful countries in the world with the largest prison system housing more prisoners than other countries. Corporate fusing with government=fascism. Look it up! By definition, Romney is a fascist. He is attempting to take over government as a corporate leader and has defined "vulture capitalism" with his association with Bain. We can afford democracy if we: 1. Break up the banks 2. Let small banks be competitive by offering lower interest rates on credit cards. 5% interest would stimulate consumer spending. 3. Curb the Pentagon and its expenses. 4. Stop the drone strikes which vitiates any moral authority we have in the world. 5. Get rid of the "austerity" program that the GOP and corporate cronies want to foist on us. 6. Raise the minimum wage to $10 an hour. 7. Glass-Steagal would separate the banks from being gambling casinos. 8. Close Git-Mo and restore Habeas Corpus 9. Vote the GOP out of office since they are wrecking our economy. 10. Get rid of the myth of "me first" that the Libertarians are offering as a solution. 11. Oh yes, government regulation to protect us from Libertarianism. 12. Tax the rich corporations and CEO's. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Can we afford Democracy? From: Don Firth Date: 15 Jun 12 - 05:40 PM Hey! Yah know what? Stringsinger for President!! (But he probably doesn't want the job.) Don Firth |
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Subject: RE: BS: Can we afford Democracy? From: dick greenhaus Date: 15 Jun 12 - 05:42 PM Frank-- An inspiring (and extensive list). Do you mean by "if" that we can't afford democracy unless all 12 conditions are met? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Can we afford Democracy? From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity Date: 15 Jun 12 - 06:18 PM Great posts, from Sawzaw, Bruce, and Stringsinger!!! Thank you Sawzaw...Your posts had accurate and historical value...that kicks the crap out of the partisan antics, and rhetoric! GfS |
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Subject: RE: BS: Can we afford Democracy? From: Bobert Date: 15 Jun 12 - 08:11 PM Yup, Strings... Vote the Repubs out and restore sanity to our governing process... These people are radical autocratic fascists... Their way or no way... B~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Can we afford Democracy? From: GUEST,999 Date: 15 Jun 12 - 09:38 PM Voting Republicans out is only part of the problem. Corruption in government will still remain--not all the corrupted are Republican. It still leaves a stranglehold on health care via BIG PHARM, Maggie's Farm no doubt--and it leaves corruption on Wall Street and in the banks. Before ya say, 'One step at a time', keep in mind that that's the way we walk in circles, too. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Can we afford Democracy? From: Bobert Date: 15 Jun 12 - 09:43 PM Votin' out Repubs ain't gonna fix everything but votin' 'um in will make things 100% worse... B~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Can we afford Democracy? From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity Date: 15 Jun 12 - 10:34 PM Bobbins: "Votin' out Repubs ain't gonna fix everything but votin' 'um in will make things 100% worse..." Right!!...Voting out the Republicans will make things only 50% better!!. Voting out the Democrats will cover the other 50%!! GfS |
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Subject: RE: BS: Can we afford Democracy? From: Don Firth Date: 16 Jun 12 - 12:05 AM And elect--??? Don Firth |
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Subject: RE: BS: Can we afford Democracy? From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity Date: 16 Jun 12 - 12:46 AM Gotta' see who might jump in..and why. The way things are going, I wouldn't be surprised if Beelzebub might pick Peter Pan for his running mate!!...and appointed Ebenezer Scrooge for their press secretary! GfS |
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Subject: RE: BS: Can we afford Democracy? From: Don Firth Date: 16 Jun 12 - 02:07 AM I'm not asking you for a firm commitment, GoofuS. I'm merely asking you to speculate. No ideas, eh? None at all? Don Firth |
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Subject: RE: BS: Can we afford Democracy? From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity Date: 16 Jun 12 - 03:16 AM Frothus: "......I'm merely asking you to speculate. No ideas, eh? None at all?" Well, I rarely run out of ideas...but that's besides the point! Ummmm....you asked this before, and I gave you an 'imaginary' ticket..not that this could ever happen...but then you might never know....a Paul/Kucinich or Kucinich/Paul ticket would be interesting.. ...well, i think they would pull votes from both sides, and the middle...and they both seem to have SOME integrity....Kucinich lost a little when he caved into the Obamacare vote...which, at first he utterly DID NOT like! I could see myself voting for such a ticket...but I'm not holding my breath. THAT'S for sure.... Man, like I just can say, off the usual gang of idiots...and besides, if a perfect ticket arose, you'd never even heard if they exist, thanks to our illustrious corporate media! Little Hawk, during the last primaries, when I was holding forth, wanted to nominate me...but I had other things to do! TRUE STORY: When I first came into this town, on my way to L.A. to meet with some movie studio execs, in regards to a script and soundtrack, I stayed at a person's house, who was married to a State Senator...This person was later honored with an award, from President Bill Clinton, with their pic in the paper, and all that stuff. Well, before that event, they had a friend, whose father was a CEO of a MAJOR oil company.....and after several visits and conversations, with these people, the person with the 'Oil Dad' approached me in private, and relayed a message to me..something in the order of offering me a gig to run for the State Senate seat, which was being vacated, by the aforementioned person...and the conversation ran something to the effect of, "No problem at all..if you want it, it's yours" (they dug my act, in person, I'm rather articulate, and my general deal sorta blew them away)....I think ,that it's only on here, that people take what I've said, and tried to make it sound like I'm hostile, angry or rude....but like they say, beauty, as well as ugly, is in the eye of the beholder...anyway, I was being told that I should think it over, and give them a response......I looked at them, and quicker than a flurry of 1/128 notes, I replied, in a nice, but firmly resolute...rather pleasantly, if I do say, tone of voice, and said, "Tell your people, that if they want that to happen, they should know this about me...as soon as I would be approached about cutting a special deal for someone who I might be beholden to, to facilitate an under-the-table-favor, also known by the word 'corrupt'...I would call a press conference, tell it to the public, who would have voted for me, in trust, and tell them what the favor consisted of, who approached me, and what I would be offered, as 'payment' for services rendered, and seek legal advice, in criminally charging that person...and you know that I would, to!" Well, three days later, after the message was relayed, nobody had got in touch with me.....matter of fact, 19 years later...after the initial three days....they still haven't!!...and that suits me just fine. There's more to this story, in regards to the State Senator, who I wrote an expose about...even had his diary, to quote from. He later was promoted to Asst.Atty. General of our state....and so suddenly, resigned, mysteriously........and the article never even made it to the papers..............................yet!(But other than writing it, as a favor, I had nothing to do with it, after I gave it to his wife. Noooooooo, they don't want me..... BTW, that is an absolutely true story....and more, but I really should stop.....Would love to get into details, and on certain thisgs I may...sometime.... GfS |
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Subject: RE: BS: Can we afford Democracy? From: Stringsinger Date: 16 Jun 12 - 10:39 AM Dick, democracy is an evolving process. What I've tried to outline are goals and if we can establish some of these aspects, we can possibly achieve all of them. The Founding Fathers would agree to some of them. Jefferson warned us against "corporatocracy". We know that he was one of the most influential to promote national public education using Virginia as a model. Jefferson realized that without public education, Americans would not be qualified to make intelligent decisions as citizens and his admonitions are being felt today. George Washington decried torture for British prisoners. George Washington understood that a country can have no moral credibility in the world when torture is used in any form. I don't agree that Democrats and Republicans have parity when it comes to corruption. Both parties are guilty but the preponderance of evidence of corruption weighs more heavily on side of the radical GOP. At this point, Democrats are guilty of omission, not going after Republican values which emphasize authority at the expense of human needs, the GOP religious obeisance to money and greed, the "me first, I got mine Jack" that characterizes the Congress. Sure, Democrats have some of this too but traditionally the contrast stems from the Roosevelt era where he "welcomed the hatred" of the elite ruling class and pulled many a worker out of poverty through government programs designed to help them. How do I know? I was there and saw it first hand. The GOP think these programs are immoral. That's twisted thinking, and exhibits a sociopathic tendency in Libertarians and GOP supporters. And I'm talking about you Ayn Rand. And Ron Paul. Kucinich and Paul have one thing in common.......end the wars. Gotta' give 'em credit for that. When Exxon is a government unto itself, the Constitution becomes irrelevant. TPP has promoted Transnationals over American values as a dictator would over an oppressed country. It's no wonder that these Transnationals do business with dictators. Let's break up these big corporations like Teddy Roosevelt did, giving the coup de grace to Standard Oil and John D. Rockefeller. And what is your opinion of the sycophantic congress in it's investigation of Jamie Dimon and the antics of J.P. Morgan Chase? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Can we afford Democracy? From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity Date: 16 Jun 12 - 09:57 PM Stringsinger: "When Exxon is a government unto itself, the Constitution becomes irrelevant. TPP has promoted Transnationals over American values as a dictator would over an oppressed country. It's no wonder that these Transnationals do business with dictators. Let's break up these big corporations like Teddy Roosevelt did, giving the coup de grace to Standard Oil and John D. Rockefeller." RIGHT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Not only that, their 'borders' are NOT in recognition of 'national borders'..they have their own borders, their own rules, their own 'constitution', if you will, their own currency, and their own disregard for ANYONE, or ANYTHING that gets in their way, including political parties, other than the fact, if they can corrupt them, the people follow, and you get willing subjects to voluntarily give up their national rights, for a handful of 'free goodies'.....sorta like "Get a free prize when you purchase one of these....for the limited one time offer of, your freedom, dignity, sovereignty and rights!".....Be the first on your block....that way people will think you're 'hip'....etc. etc. etc. The thing that they fear the most, is if people really came to a place, of truly loving each other, those same people, would NOT need, or be dependent on their enticements!...Mommy, used to say, "Don't take candy from strangers."......Now their called 'entitlements' and 'benefits'...Well I got news for them, and anyone, "LOVE is the currency of 'Heaven'....and Earth is located in 'Heaven'!!!....(Ewwww, politicos hate that!)....tough beans! GfS |
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Subject: RE: BS: Can we afford Democracy? From: Bobert Date: 16 Jun 12 - 10:11 PM Other than the usual "bill of particulars", GfinS for the thousandth time side steps the issue in favor of more bashing, bitching and not one real idea... ((((((((((((((((((((((((((((yawn))))))))))))))))))))))))))))) Yup, Tea Party drippin' off GfinS... Don't know where GfinS got this shit but it's a bad case... About as bad as any of the WaPo Tea bloggers... Not meant to to be critical but as a long time participant at the WaPo I've read the same stuff from the rightest of the right... Just an observation... BTW, when one claims "classless and free" status one has to back it up, sans talking points... B~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Can we afford Democracy? From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity Date: 16 Jun 12 - 11:25 PM Bobbins: "Not meant to to be critical but as a long time participant at the WaPo I've read the same stuff from the rightest of the right..." Should read, "Not meant to to be critical but as a long time participant of being a WiNo I've read the same stuff from the rightest of the right..." Knock it off, Bobert, You're making an ass of yourself! GfS |
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Subject: RE: BS: Can we afford Democracy? From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity Date: 17 Jun 12 - 12:37 AM Bobbins: "Not meant to to be critical but as a long time participant at the WaPo I've read the same stuff from the rightest of the right..." Here, read this from 'WaPo' ...and read it carefully, not glossing over what you don't want to hear(or read...or believe) GfS |
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Subject: RE: BS: Can we afford Democracy? From: Bobert Date: 17 Jun 12 - 10:18 AM Chuckie K is the WaPo's token delusional op-ed writer... It was a toss-up between the two Charleses... Charles Manson and Charles Klodhopper... Chuckie K won the coin toss... BTW, I love messing with him at the WaPo and regularly get 10 or better "recommends"... 10 ain't easy to get but beating on Chuckie K is so easy that it, like him, is laughable... BTW, Part 2... The stagnation of the working classes wage coincidently started with Reagan busting the Air Traffic Controllers Union and has continued ever since as government has become the union busting goon de jure changing laws that allow corporations all the union busting tools that the corporations ask for... B~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Can we afford Democracy? From: Don Firth Date: 17 Jun 12 - 02:17 PM Dennis Kucinich and Ron Paul on the same ticket!?? Well, for one thing, it's never going to happen. Dennis Kucinich is a progressive Democrat and Ron Paul is a very conservative Republican—actually, a closet Libertarian. Dennis Kucinich, yes. But Ron Paul? Yes, he says he'll stop the wars, but that comes, not from the same motives that Kucinich has, but because of his embracing of the principles of Ayn Rand. Rand is basically an isolationist, and although I can agree with the result (stopping the endless round of foreign entanglements that lead nowhere, cost enough to bankrupt the country [one of the major factors in the financial straits we're in now] and bringing the troops home), I can NOT agree with the philosophy of isolationism that inspires it. It was that kind of isolationism that kept the United States out of World War II until the Germans and the Japanese had conquered so much of the world that the Allies came damned close to loosing it! Bush--not Obama--got us involved in the Middle East. When 9-11 occurred, Bush responded by attacking Iraq, despite the fact that Saddam Hussein had nothing to do with it, and didn't get along at all with Osama bin Laden. That's as if, when Pearl Harbor was attacked by the Japanese in 1941, Roosevelt had responded by invading Brazil!! Ron Paul would pull us out of the UN and NATO. Not a good idea!! GfS, you may like Ron Paul because he wants to stop the wars, but you are ignoring 1) the motives from which his desire springs, and 2) what's in the rest of the Ron Paul package. That's as short-sighted as advocating the freeing of a homicidal maniac because he always pays for the beer—before he tries to cut your throat. You can't just cherry-pick, GfS, you have to consider the WHOLE PACKAGE. And you keep accusing US of being "loony" and "brain washed!" Learn something about politics and the philosophical foundations upon which the various political positions. For God Sake, man, READ A BOOK!! Don Firth P. S. By the way, if you think writers of fiction have no influence on political movements, then you don't properly appreciate the effect that writers like Charles Dickens had on such things as child labor laws (Oliver Twist, a work of fiction). And one helluva lot more people read Sinclair Lewis's Babbit, the novel that won Lewis the Nobel Prize in Literature in 1930, than ever read Thorstein Veblen's The Theory of the Leisure Class. Like I said, READ A BOOK!! Read SEVERAL books!!! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Can we afford Democracy? From: Don Firth Date: 17 Jun 12 - 02:23 PM Next to the last paragraph in the main body of my above post should read Learn something about politics and the philosophical foundations upon which the various political positions are based.Don Firth |
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Subject: RE: BS: Can we afford Democracy? From: Q (Frank Staplin) Date: 17 Jun 12 - 02:56 PM Cupsink and Gall together or separately on any ticket? Only in a substance-enhanced dream. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Can we afford Democracy? From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity Date: 17 Jun 12 - 09:13 PM Like I've said before, I don't think it would ever happen...but as posted by Stringsinger, "Kucinich and Paul have one thing in common.......end the wars. Gotta' give 'em credit for that." ....and as I've said, I'm NOT prone to support either Romney, or Obama....and would like to see someone else run. As far as getting out of NATO, or the U.N......what's the down side??? GfS |
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Subject: RE: BS: Can we afford Democracy? From: Bobert Date: 17 Jun 12 - 09:26 PM I wouldn't let Ron Paul carry Dennis Kucinich's jock strap because Paul ain't qualified... Paul would privatize absolutely everything, down to the sidewalks in front of your house and let corporation bill you for walking on them... That is not an exaggeration... Paul would void minimum wage laws... Paul would bust the last of the few remaining unions left... Paul would turn America in Somalia... There are large problems that are best handled collectively... Paul make Ayn Rand look like a moderate... lol... B~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Can we afford Democracy? From: Don Firth Date: 17 Jun 12 - 10:25 PM GoofuS: "As far as getting out of NATO, or the U.N......what's the down side???" You didn't study history in high school, GoofuS? Or you cut classes? Or slept? I don't have time right now to list the many down sides of withdrawing from NATO and/or the UN. But . . . "I'll be back!" --Arnie Bobert is right. You ARE a Tea Party hack! Don Firth |
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Subject: RE: BS: Can we afford Democracy? From: Bobert Date: 17 Jun 12 - 10:43 PM Forgive them, Don, for they no know what they think... Just anti-Obama/anti-government with absolutely no thoughts of who (and more importantly, why) the PR people who are putting these very radical ideas in their heads... 30 days if Ron Paul and America would unravel as a civilized society and become a scene from "Escape from New York" and/or "Mad Max After the Thunderdome"... Somalia, BTW, isn't the best model out there... B~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Can we afford Democracy? From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity Date: 17 Jun 12 - 11:19 PM Bobbins: "Just anti-Obama/anti-government with absolutely no thoughts of who...." What??..You need the government to wipe your ass, too. Government is too big..Corporations are too big...People have become insignificant!!!! Just because 'too big' falls on both sides of the equation, do NOT mean I'm 'anti' anything...I am FOR people having THEIR say, in what's going on...as it is, now, we have to put up with ALL their bullshit, while neither one of them is listening to the DEMOCRACY....or has the 'Democratic Party' gotten TOO big to still believe in Democracy????? Jeez!.....and It has nothing to do with the Tea party, Coffee party or Kool-Aid Party!..Jeez, with you guys, it's ALWAYS someone to categorize, demonize, and HATE!....You MUST have gotten to the point where you think people can not act out of love, and NOT infringe their wills over other people's rights!...That's sick! GfS |
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Subject: RE: BS: Can we afford Democracy? From: Don Firth Date: 17 Jun 12 - 11:50 PM Like trying to nail Jell-O to the wall. He's all blob and wobble, with no substance. GoofuS doesn't have a clue! Don Firth |
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Subject: RE: BS: Can we afford Democracy? From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity Date: 18 Jun 12 - 01:03 AM OK...I'm convinced! Prattle on!.....and while you're at it, make sure you divide as many American citizens against each other as possible....because yours is the ideology of peace, right?? I remember during the Vietnam war, there was a saying...."What if they threw a war, and nobody came?" Shame on you guys! GfS |
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Subject: RE: BS: Can we afford Democracy? From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity Date: 18 Jun 12 - 02:05 AM Frothus-a-Bunchus: "GoofuS doesn't have a clue!" ....but I have a soul...and recognize that others, that I may, or may not agree with have one, as well. Why don't you spend some time thinking on the things that unite people..and find a common ground...rather than stroking each other on how to justify divisions, resentment and fear and loathing. I thought you used to be a political activist???....Does that mean, you looked for things to get people to be incited over propaganda??...and most of it, known disinformation??.. and just keep hammering away over stuff you just make up, to divide??..projecting resentful nonsense into those who have none???? Are you two living proof that misery enjoys company??? Haven't you ever found beauty in people, instead of promoting a hostility that you can 'unite' behind??....Ever enjoy beautiful music??...or does that piss you off too??.....even if someone you politically disagree with likes it too?? GfS |
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Subject: RE: BS: Can we afford Democracy? From: Bobert Date: 18 Jun 12 - 10:34 AM What do you call a country that: ...won't fix its roads ...won't maintain its bridges ...won't provide basic health care for its people ...won't invest in education for a better future ...won't replace crumbling 100 year old water and sewer pipe ...doesn't believe in science ...has 1/2 of its people living at or close to poverty ...rigs elections ...does not respect the rule of law ...creates an atmosphere where people fight eac other for crumbs ...disrespects labor ...etc.??? A. Somalia B. The United States C. Neither D. Both (Answer: D) So go blow your self righteous Ayn Rand Tea-baloney at other self righteous Ayn Tea-baloney who are on the same page with you, GfinS... It is getting very tiresome and is disrespects the real history of the United States... B~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Can we afford Democracy? From: Sawzaw Date: 18 Jun 12 - 10:37 AM Votin' out Repubs ain't gonna fix everything but votin' 'um in will make things 100% worse... Not accordin' to Obama's former Harvard Perfessor But sheeeit, Bobert has fergot more than any Harvard Perfessor ever knew. Right? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Can we afford Democracy? From: GUEST,999 Date: 18 Jun 12 - 10:56 AM Unger said what many of us think. He is in favour of neither party winning, so it looks like y'all be between sold-outs and sell-outs. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Can we afford Democracy? From: Bobert Date: 18 Jun 12 - 12:39 PM We are in a pickle, that much is for sure, brucie... And there doesn't seem any way out.... We no longer have an informed electorate and that's our biggest problem... The American people aren't stupid.... They are just badly misinformed... B~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Can we afford Democracy? From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity Date: 18 Jun 12 - 01:54 PM DUHHHHH!!!....Bobbins, now your starting to sound like a Tea Partier....or at least that's what you say to a lot of us, telling YOU, and Don, the same thing!!!! I told you twice before, and used the word 'Obama betrayed' the people who put him in, and...the other time I said 'something went awry'....and they were turning against him....Now Sawzaw posted the same thing with the link, a week or two later.....................and Don's inquiring of my 'news' sources....it's just like music....you see all this stuff on page, flyspecks and lines...and each individual one can get you all hypered-out, and get you overwhelmed and confused.....unless you connect the dots...........then its music!!! Like I posted before..... "The sound of deceptions have uneven rhythms........." Oh yeah, and blues in A Blues(pentatonic), is really in 'C' major... SEE???? GfS |
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Subject: RE: BS: Can we afford Democracy? From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity Date: 18 Jun 12 - 02:32 PM Bobert and Don,....You wanted music???? You've heard me speak of this guy before....too often he was overlooked..but really a genius...this is from 1968... Paul 'Biff' Rose.........a dearest friend!!! and: ....Love you guys....we've done everyone, a great service...thank you!! Nice working with you!! GfS |
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Subject: RE: BS: Can we afford Democracy? From: GUEST Date: 18 Jun 12 - 02:46 PM GfS: Bobert and I have as many disagreements as do Bobert and you. Something to keep in mind: he is very worried about his country (and I'm not suggesting you aren't). The problem is as B just said. You have a very poorly informed electorate, poorly motivated and easy targets for media--and lord knows who they work for; I don't. The consistent back-and-forths is accomplishing zero. This is precisely what has led to the present problem: vote in the police state or have it descended upon you. I side with Bobert for this one election. After that your people may have time to organize resistance. Let the Rs in and you'll be crushed within a year--that is if they allow this election to take place. If you don't have a third party set to go for 2016, you all will be well and truly screwed. Your EPA is a joke--worldwide. And now the world laughs at the USA because 'the people who showed the world what freedom was' now have so little of their own. Yes, Manhattan was bought for some beads. Your freedom has been bought for televisions, SUVs, cell phones and fast foods. Dontcha think it might be better to start working on a course of action that just may take back your freedom? The 'can do' folks have become the 'not now, I'm tied up with this real neat sit-com' folks, and the greatest country upto now in world history is being flushed down the toilet. IMO. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Can we afford Democracy? From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity Date: 18 Jun 12 - 02:48 PM oh, and he plays piano live, as he's singin'...(classically trained) Try this......... Hope you're listenin'!!! Highest Regards!!! GfS |
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Subject: RE: BS: Can we afford Democracy? From: GUEST,999 Date: 18 Jun 12 - 02:53 PM GUEST 18 Jun 12 - 02:46 PM That post was me. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Can we afford Democracy? From: GUEST Date: 18 Jun 12 - 02:54 PM Try this......... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Can we afford Democracy? From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity Date: 18 Jun 12 - 02:58 PM Bruce....Thank you for your post...with all my heart, I know this...and as I've told them, pleading.."I'm on your side"...... ...and this,,,DO NOT confuse it with "religion" GfS |
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Subject: RE: BS: Can we afford Democracy? From: Don Firth Date: 18 Jun 12 - 04:10 PM GoofuS!! Wake up and pay attention!! A look at the top 10 things the UN does well and why the UN matters. 1. Food Aid. This is an easy one. The UN's World Food feeds 104 million people a year in 80 countries. It feeds people in war zones, natural disaster situations, health emergencies, and just plain poor countries. 2. Aid to Refugees. There were 17 million asylum-seekers, refugees and the like, in 2004 alone, who got help from the UN. It helps refugees directly and works to ensure that governments meet their responsibilities to these displaced persons. 3. Protecting Children. UNICEF has built a reputation as an advocacy and service powerhouse, with programs ranging from immunizations to AIDS prevention to education and protection against exploitation. 4. Peacekeeping. The UN has 16 active peacekeeping missions right now, in places like Sierra Leone, Kosovo, Lebanon, Liberia and Burundi. If the UN wasn't there, no one else but the marauders would be and the peace or relative peace being kept would have disintegrated long ago. 5. Intervenor of Last Resort. In peacekeeping but also more broadly, the UN gets involved in messes when no one else will touch. The meltdowns in Congo and Liberia are prime examples. When the U.S. and Europe have no interest in getting involved, and there's no regional player with the will and capabilities, the choice is often looking away from slaughter and mayhem, or throwing the problem to the UN. The UN deserves credit for taking on these quagmires. 6. Running Elections. The UN has quietly built an impressive capacity to run elections under tough circumstances. This was put to the test in Iraq where, due to security concerns, the organization was able to deploy only a small fraction of the staff it thought it needed, yet it still managed to bring off monitored elections. The UN also managed successful first-ever elections in places like East Timor—and Afghanistan. [Perhaps we could use the UN's election oversight in the United States? Just a thought. . . .] 7. Reproductive Health and Population Management. The UN has built a great specialty in mother and childhood health, family planning, and the prevention of sexually transmitted diseases. The UN Population Fund is widely respected, and is credited with helping to drastically reduce infant and maternal mortality in more than 100 countries. Unfortunately due to its global gag rule designed to prevent health care workers from even talking about abortion, for a time, the Bush Administration deprived UNFPA of funds needed for this work. 8. War Crimes Prosecution. The tribunals it set up for the former Yugoslavia and for Rwanda have developed important case law on genocide and human rights, and have provided a measure of justice that is taken very seriously by the people of affected regions. The UN deserves credit for the progress it is making in this area, in which no other country or body is taking the lead to the same degree. 9. Fighting AIDS. The UN is the leader when it comes to the global battle against HIV/AIDS. Between the World Health Organization, UNAIDS, and the Global Fund to Fight AIDS, Tuberculosis and Malaria the UN is at the heart of every aspect of dealing with the epidemic, from heightening awareness to raising funds to making sure appropriate programs for prevention and treatment are implemented. The UN has wisely recognized that the organization itself cannot shoulder this one alone, and has set up the Fund and other mechanisms aimed at drawing governments, other multilaterals, NGOs and corporations into the cause. 10. Bringing invisible issues to the fore. Were it not for the UN, an awful lot of suffering around the world would go even less noticed and addressed than it does today. Landmine victims, Marburg fever and cholera sufferers, child soldiers, modern-day slaves, lepers, and thousands of other populations beleaguered by one or another either visible or obscure plight have a place to turn to in the UN. #### NATO is composed of some 28 member states across North America and Europe, and during the Cold War, when the Soviet Union was saber-rattling, the Soviet leaders had to be aware that if they attacked one NATO country, it would be the same as if they had attacked them all, because all of them would respond militarily. One never knows if it actually deterred a possible World War III complete with nuclear holocaust, but it may very well have. And the same deterrence exists today for any nation with bellicose tendencies (that's "warlike nation" to you, GoofuS. I don't want to confuse you with too many big words.). Some folks are sufficiently ill-informed as to claim that the recent military activity in Libya was "Obama's war." But this was a NATO operation, to protect Libyan citizens who were protesting against the regime of dictator Muammar Gaddafi from being killed. Many NATO countries participated. The United States had no ground troops involved, but we provided air cover for other NATO countries' troops by enforcing a no-fly zone. Only a Right Wing propagandist—or someone like Goofus, either through ignorance or deceptive intent—would call this "Obama's war." Additionally, several NATO countries, including the United States, has deployed warships in the Gulf of Aden and the Indian Ocean to deter Somali and other pirates from preying on shipping in those areas. No. Withdrawing from the UN and NATO would NOT be a good thing. Don Firth P. S. By the way, there are a couple of billionaires whom I salute. Media mogul Ted Turner, worth three billion dollars, gave ONE of those billions to the United Nations (making it plain that he was NOT paying the dues of the United States, which was in arrears during the Bush Administration) to be used for various UN causes. When criticized by other billionaires for his donation (they apparently felt he was setting a bad example by giving away some of his wealthy), he responded pithily, "Who the hell NEEDS that much money!??" And Bill Gates. Worth, at one point, some $90 billion (!), was leaned on by his father, Bill Gates Sr., to do some good with his money (again, in the spirit of "Who the hell NEEDS that much money!??"), and when he got married, the Pacific Northwest's resident computer nerd was humanized by his wife, Melinda. They formed the "Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation." The three board members are Bill and Melinda themselves--and Warren Buffet. They've given billions of dollars to global health programs (including research to develop an HIV vaccine), financial services of the poor, worldwide agricultural development, contributions to public libraries, and funding for various educational programs. Not official, but last I heard, Bill's fortune is down from $90 billion to something like $30 billion. They've given that much to various causes. Yeah. I think they set a very good example for the other members of the 1%, no? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Can we afford Democracy? From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity Date: 18 Jun 12 - 06:19 PM Yeah yeah..I know you love bureaucracies, but making war and poverty around the world is not really a necessity, is it??? From the grass roots up, the dialogue MUST be changed. The 'awareness' MUST be focused on something besides accommodations for everyone's greed, and the corruption that goes with it. THAT starts, not by waiting for someone else to flash..it starts with each and everyone of us..within our own selves first, before we go ordering all those around the world, and waging war on all those who don't bend to the will of the greed-mongers....and we think, "Aw, we can never have that happen"....or look at it and say, "Wow, nobody has even tried it yet, on that scale"...hell, You're the 'activist'...we are for the most part musicians....WE, here...can make a difference...but it starts with each of our minds and hearts, individually.....when enough people are doing it....THEN we have a group...which grows...and DO NOT underestimate the possibilities, or throw your hands up, and think it can't be done...otherwise you're done before you even start! As it is, right now, after looking at various forums and bloggy places,....WE, right here in Ole Mudcat, because of our interactions, are light years of people, who aren't flashing yet...but.. ..wasn't Dylan, Seeger, Guthrie, Rose, Ochs, Lennon and others getting their stuff, before it was a 'trend'...matter of fact, these guys, CHANGED the consciousness of the world~! ..and I'm NOT for 'giving up'.....throwing up my hands, and saying, "It can't be done". We no longer need the record industry to slow things down and monopolize us out of existence. Everyone here has their bit of expertise. Everyone here has something to offer. Everyone here must be feeling the consequences of what is coming down the pipe...Most everyone here, has a weapon....it is an instrument, it is some technical knowledge, transportation, it is a studio, it is a flair for writing and composing........AND....everyone here, I believe wants to be able to make a difference!(or we wouldn't be posting messages, would we?).....and I'd like a damned good vocalist!...I got material! What we DON'T need, is another layer of bureaucracy, either corporate or governmental, which keeps the message down, and out!...WE DON'T need to be an organization...but rather we need to be an organism!!!...Ever played on stage, where EVERYONE was dialed into the moment, and you were ALL of one mind?? No "Look at Me" trips....just in the moment, inside the pocket, laying it out. I'm game. Shit, why am i telling you this...YOU'RE the 'activist'....are you done?....or just looking for the right gig??????? Regards!!!!!!!!! GfS |
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Subject: RE: BS: Can we afford Democracy? From: Don Firth Date: 18 Jun 12 - 06:28 PM You're bloody clueless!! Don Firth |
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Subject: RE: BS: Can we afford Democracy? From: Don Firth Date: 18 Jun 12 - 07:13 PM Once again you're trying to put words in my mouth. PTUI!! Unsanitary!! NO, GoofuS, I'm not advocating more bureaucracy, I'm saying make the regulatory agencies we already have in place function the way they were intended. Get the Wall Street bankers OFF the Securities and Exchange Commission. Then get drug company executives OFF the Food and Drug Administration. And similarly, clean the company stooges out the other regulatory agencies and appoint people who do not have a financial interest in the businesses and industries they're supposed to regulate, as they were originally intended to do, and prevent the kind of scams, Ponzi schemes, and excesses that got the country—and much of the rest of the world—into this mess! It was Ronald Reagan who started castrating the agencies that Roosevelt first put in place, and which helped end the Depression. Businesses hated these agencies because they had to deal honestly with the public. By rendering them non-functional, Reagan became one of the Saints of the Right Wing. Subsequent Republican presidents have continuted to do the same thing: render the regulatory agencies impotent so that the looting of the country could continue. It's not brain surgury, GoofuS. It's just common sense, a commodity which you and much of the rest of the country seems to be lacking in these days! You know. Don't put the fox in charge of the chicken coop. Simple as that!! History, man!! History! You know, GoofuS, you're so busy pumping up your own feeble ego by making brainless attacks against people who know what's going on and are concerned about it that you'll NEVER learn. You don't WANT to learn. Like a typical Know Nothing, you don't want to learn anything, you don't want to help solve anything, and you just don't give a damn. You just want to snipe at others, then sit back and feel smug. You're a waste of protoplasm! Don Firth |
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Subject: RE: BS: Can we afford Democracy? From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity Date: 18 Jun 12 - 07:26 PM I'm not going to get into a thread diversion about talking about the U.N......but in the first part of this song, he says something MOST apropos....and I thought Bobbins was going to pick up on it.... BTW, did you hear the songs..all of them??...what'd ya' think?? Personally, I think situations dictate that we should be beyond snippy, petty attacks...and that's a big 'heads up' for you.....besides other people might want to throw in....either lead, follow, or get out of the way! Sitting around trying to spoil things, at this point is absolutely a waste of your time, and other's talents!! Here, take another listen......(even though, he sorta sounds like Kermit the Frog, his playing and lyrics are great! Don, Listen to this again..pay attention to the lyrics...talkin' about your trip GfS |
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Subject: RE: BS: Can we afford Democracy? From: Bobert Date: 18 Jun 12 - 08:18 PM Yup, Don, like the rest of the Tea-folk, GfinS is not only clueless but in denial... Or filthy rich and hates paying any taxes??? You pick... BTW, Don... I really have had my fill of GfinS Tea and blue clickies and guess not all that much fun... Hate to say it but I might just have to let you spar with 'um... They are all Obama haters who would accuse Obama for putting doctors out of work if Obama found a cure for cancer... Very tiresome... B~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Can we afford Democracy? From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity Date: 18 Jun 12 - 09:19 PM Yes, Bobbins, all that hatin' can wear a guy out, huh? gfS |
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Subject: RE: BS: Can we afford Democracy? From: Sawzaw Date: 18 Jun 12 - 09:39 PM "if Obama found a cure for cancer" Allways with the if then hypothetical proof of something. What if Bobert discontinued his hate speech? What then? What if Bobert admitted that the West Bank is larger than Washington DC and it is not the most densely populated in earth? What then? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Can we afford Democracy? From: Bobert Date: 18 Jun 12 - 09:44 PM Your's has worn me slap out, GfinS... I mean, slap the f'n out... Maybe tomorrow or next Tuesday... Your crap is over powering... You'd need an army to bust through your BS... I mean, some high powered BS on your part... No facts... No ideas... Just and endless stream of BS, denial, blue clickies and more BS... You must have a staff to post this much shit... I don't... B~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Can we afford Democracy? From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity Date: 18 Jun 12 - 09:54 PM Naw, just prolific, I guess....I was hoping you guys would possibly take me up on my proposal.....after all, music is what unites us...and while we're at it, the post by Bruce, 999..was right on the money..and yeah, we all feel the anxiety....and another BTW, I'm not particularly 'glad' that Obama has found himself in the predicament he his in, nor the country....and though i clocked it early on, during the last primaries, I would have rather been wrong, than seeing our nation in the spot it's in......I don't 'hate' or 'resent' anybody, especially the musicians on here...and, believe it or not..I am really on your side....would you rather have it that those who are on your side be wrong, all the time?? ..and besides, I know that my posts maybe 'over powering'...but look at it this way...'I'm not heavy, I'm your brother...' GfS |
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Subject: RE: BS: Can we afford Democracy? From: Bobert Date: 18 Jun 12 - 10:07 PM You post so much shit that, frankly, I just skip it... If you would just post what ideas you have and leave it at that with out a dozen posts with clickies then maybe you'd get responses... In other words, you are trying to shut down discussion with quantity... I suggest, brevity... Just tell us what the fuck you think... What are your ideas... I don't have time to read a bunch of BS right winged blogisphere crap... Heck, if I want to do that all I gotta do is Google up anything that is remotely political and the first 50 pages are filled with right winged BS... Get off the quantity, GfInS, and get with the quality of what you have to say... That is, fir you ahve anything to say... There is a reason why I no longer respond to Sawz... He marginalized himself much the way you are doing... You may think that overpowering a discussion is winning points but you are as wrong as wrong can be... You are watering yourself down... Way down... Listen, I been on dozens of committees and been involved in a lot of "community organizing" (horrors) and it ain't the guy (or gal) who talks the most that, at the end of the day, gets people's attention... Less is more... Get it??? Probably not... Sincerely... B~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Can we afford Democracy? From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity Date: 18 Jun 12 - 10:09 PM Well, you asked me to post music...I did...all those blue clickies are music....enjoy! GfS Short 'nuff? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Can we afford Democracy? From: Bobert Date: 18 Jun 12 - 10:15 PM Okay... I can do music... My bad... I figured you were up to your usual shit so I just glossed over 'um... I'll check 'um out tomorrow... Listening to my new favorite CD... Neil Young's "Americana"... It the shits... I mean, my kinda music... Tomorrow... B~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Can we afford Democracy? From: Sawzaw Date: 18 Jun 12 - 10:32 PM It seems to be getting more fashionable to bust Obama's chops in the media now. The honeymoon is over and folks are thinking with their pocketbooks. That stuff about The one percent paying more taxes? Would all of their money combined put a dent in the deficit? Don't forget Obama is in the 1% too like most members of congress so I guess they are going to force themselves to pay more taxes? All they have to do is write a check and send it to the US Treasury. What are they waiting for? I Obama's net worth has grown to around $12 Million now while the country goes down the tubes like Greece. Obama gets richer while the poor get poorer. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Can we afford Democracy? From: Sawzaw Date: 18 Jun 12 - 10:44 PM "does not respect the rule of law" That's the dope smokin' moonshine guzzlers. The pandering politicians that won't enforce federal law. Won't follow the Constitution. The ones that whine about suspending Habeas Corpus and then do it themselves. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Can we afford Democracy? From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity Date: 18 Jun 12 - 11:50 PM Sawzaw: ""does not respect the rule of law" What are you referencing?(in your post?) I couldn't find it, while scrolling back. thank you, GfS P.S. Thank you for your posts and links. You've done a service to us all, in ferreting out some facts. I know some of them aren't 'popular', but sometimes the truth isn't.................depending on where one's head is at. Truth doesn't have to 'popular', it only has to be the truth and we should always be ready, willing and able, and of clear mind to respond to 'adjusting' to the truth, and not the other way around. Again, Thank you......(You've taken a LOT of unnecessary crap, and to put up with it, and keep going is highly commendable!!!....I know). GfS |
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Subject: RE: BS: Can we afford Democracy? From: Sawzaw Date: 19 Jun 12 - 08:49 PM That was 18 Jun 12 - 10:34 AM from Judge Bobert who can criticize anybody for any thing, does not have to back it up or prove anything but gets belligerent if any body dares to criticize him or question one of his "Facts". Yes he can accuse others of not retrospecting the law but writes himself a pass on smoking dope and guzzling moonshine, thereby evading taxes. "So go blow your self righteous Ayn Rand Tea-baloney at other self righteous Ayn Tea-baloney who are on the same page with you" Bobert is the epitome of a self righteous egotistical person. The HPD poster child Neil Young is good but now some Bobert type cry baby left winger does not want others to hear Lee Greenwood's "I'm proud to be an American" because if might offend the non Americans. I suppose the Star Spangled Banner should be banned because it might offend blind people. It's pretty GD bad when you can sing about your own country in your own country. How about Fat's "I'm walkin to New Awlins" nope, handicapped people might feel bad. Hey Neil did that one too. Maybe the America is Somalia Bobert types would like to ban this one. Tell ya what Bobert, I'll take America just the way it is. You can have Somalia seein' as you can't tell the difference. You can go over there and do all your whinin' and cryin' and suckin' snot about how hard the dirt is in America and digging in is such a terrible chore. I don't mind hard dirt at all. At least I got some dirt to dig and something to dig with. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Can we afford Democracy? From: Bobert Date: 19 Jun 12 - 09:18 PM Sawz, I don't read any of your shit but I do glance to see if I can pick out "Bobert"... Seems that you are back to your OCD on me... You have mental problems, man... Get help... B~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Can we afford Democracy? From: Sawzaw Date: 19 Jun 12 - 09:28 PM Suppose you outline my mental problems Dr Bobert. Or is it too hard? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Can we afford Democracy? From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity Date: 20 Jun 12 - 01:27 AM Personally I like this one.....music lyrics, delivery, chops! ..and she did it in Poland! AND... Hey Bobert, did you ever click the links to Biff Rose? He lays it out pretty cool!..and right on! GfS |
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Subject: RE: BS: Can we afford Democracy? From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity Date: 20 Jun 12 - 02:09 AM When I clicked onto Mudcat, This page greeted me as if it is threat or reminder..or whatever...I guess it is in response to to one of the last posts I just posted...so, I'd like ti know which one was so 'upsetting'..fair enough? Which one? This one?? Subject: RE: BS: Can we afford Democracy? From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity Date: 20 Jun 12 - 01:27 AM Personally I like this one.....music lyrics, delivery, chops! ..and she did it in Poland! AND... Hey Bobert, did you ever click the links to Biff Rose? He lays it out pretty cool!..and right on! GfS This one??? Subject: RE: BS: 2012 Presidential Election From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity Date: 20 Jun 12 - 01:12 AM Q: "Dunno what guest finds in that report that bears on the election." When unemployment for our own citizens is how it is, it's rather revealing to actually SEE the policies that are implemented, in contrast to the promises, that got him elected. Import workers???..Maybe someone could find that missing and unaccounted for trillion dollars, to put our own citizens back to work...after all, it was OUR federal tax money that paid for it, to be used for our benefit...not the coddling and placating of other countries, for their economies......isn't that fair to say? Now this is a pretty good general rule...: "The guy who wins elections is the one with better and the more convincing lies." GfS This one?? Subject: RE: BS: President Romney (prediction only) From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity Date: 20 Jun 12 - 01:03 AM Bobbins: "Ike was right..." "Technology will never replace the spirit of a fighting man." Dwight D. Eisenhower GfS Or, This one???? Subject: RE: BS: OCDTrolls... From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity Date: 20 Jun 12 - 12:57 AM One man's 'troll' is another man's messenger...depends if you listen, or resist the message....The OCD could be in the eye of the beholder. Just a thought.... GfS Just wondering..just wondering because the thread was, "Can we afford Democracy?".....and I thought Democracy meant something Democrats believed in, and 'free speech'.......and judging from the last four posts, they were on topic, and just comments sans anything snide, or aggressive...or, well out of line. So what was it? Was somebody's political 'reality' feel threatened? I don't know....I'd much prefer the person who did it tell me, rather than a bunch of 'opinions'. It's the second time, now...and wondering if someone is 'urging' it to be done, because they're running out of meaningless 'talking points', either side..... OR could it be, that certain people's over-reactions are REALLY the reason a thread gets nasty, and then the person who the nasty remarks are made to(usually a diversionary, and off topic tactic), accompanied with indignant insults over things that were NEVER said, nor implied. I don't thing a clarifying explanation is beyond a reasonable request. GfS |
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Subject: RE: BS: Can we afford Democracy? From: Bobert Date: 20 Jun 12 - 05:35 PM Liked the Anna Maria Jopek & Pat Methany... Biff Rose doesn't do it for me... I like music that is purdy (delicious) or balls-to-the-wall... B~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Can we afford Democracy? From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity Date: 21 Jun 12 - 01:34 AM Hey Bobert..Jopek is really cool, on that piece. With Biff rose..IT'S the lyrics!!! Biff used to live in Venice,(L.A.)..when I lived there, nearby. His girlfriend, Carol hung with my brother, a drummer, during that time. she was an idiot for that, too....Well, Biff used to write comedy sketches, and routines for George Carlin, he was on Smothers Brothers, and Johnny Carson's 'Tonight Show' 13 times.....what isn't known as much, is that the 13th time was the last, because he started ribbing Johnny about his clothes, ON THE AIR,,and was funny, in the way that you KNEW he was treading on eggshells...but he just kept going. Johnny was getting bugged...because Biff was also knocking the fact that he had to wear this stuff, just for the sponsors, and that he ought to wear things that were comfortable etc etc.. Anyway, listen to Biff again..listen to the lyrics...one of them reminded me of Don, you and me..and how you guys carry on...about politics....and the song, is not only true, but funny. I think its the one, that starts with, "I'm too spaced out, to write right now, so I'll have to sing about butterflies and cabbages...." just listen, further into it. GfS |
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Subject: RE: BS: Can we afford Democracy? From: Bobert Date: 21 Jun 12 - 12:02 PM OK... BTW, you know I can't do blue clickies and I'm not sure if you can even find this guy but try it... His name is Declan Masterson... You probably haven't heard of him because he's Irish and never got any air time here in the states... One of my UK friends turned me on to him... I think you'll like his stuff... It's delicious music... B~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Can we afford Democracy? From: beardedbruce Date: 22 Jun 12 - 08:34 AM http://music.yahoo.com/declan-masterson/ http://www.allmusic.com/artist/declan-masterson-mn0000814816 |
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Subject: RE: BS: Can we afford Democracy? From: Bobert Date: 22 Jun 12 - 08:38 AM Thanks, Bruce... Check this guy out, GfinS... I've heard both ya'll's music and you have some things in common... B~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Can we afford Democracy? From: Stringsinger Date: 22 Jun 12 - 03:55 PM If anyone here thinks Romney is going to help the US with it's unemployment problem, they ought to consider how a corporatist like Romney is very much like Mussolini. "Corporations are people, my friend." Il Duce? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Can we afford Democracy? From: Bobert Date: 22 Jun 12 - 06:49 PM Of course Romney isn't going to create new jobs... It's not in his DNA... He's a firer, not a hirer... B~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Can we afford Democracy? From: GUEST,999 Date: 22 Jun 12 - 07:59 PM He is another rotten sonuvabitch who wants his snout in the trough, badly. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Can we afford Democracy? From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity Date: 22 Jun 12 - 10:00 PM ....like most before him, including the one we have now! GfS |
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Subject: RE: BS: Can we afford Democracy? From: Bobert Date: 22 Jun 12 - 10:18 PM Romney, however, makes Obama look like a Boy Scout... Obama hasn't been part of laying off hundreds of thousands of workers and sent their jobs overseas... Romney has... Guess again, GfinS... B~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Can we afford Democracy? From: GUEST,999 Date: 22 Jun 12 - 10:42 PM Gentlemen, we digress. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Can we afford Democracy? From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity Date: 23 Jun 12 - 09:40 PM Bobert: "Obama hasn't been part of laying off hundreds of thousands of workers and sent their jobs overseas..." No, he sent Jeffry Immelt over there with $500,000,000,000 of our worker's tax money to start jobs over there. We can afford Democracy....but not this crap!...Nobody voted for THAT to happen! What a sap! GfS |
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Subject: RE: BS: Can we afford Democracy? From: Bobert Date: 23 Jun 12 - 09:53 PM Reality check, GfinS... Guess what??? The Chinese like Buicks??? Like ***Japanese*** Honda and Toyota have done here GM has opened Buick plants in China... That makes them more affordable and competitive... What your Tea Party/Republican ***Lie Machine*** isn't telling you is that this isn't costing one single American job... Not one of these Buicks is being shipped to the US... In other words... You are caught yet again spreading TeaPub BIG LIES... Guess again... Oh, and please... No TeaPub blue clickie BIG LIE websites that look all official... In the words of Mark Twain, "Lies, lies and damned lies"... B~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Can we afford Democracy? From: GUEST,999 Date: 23 Jun 12 - 11:52 PM 'In the words of Mark Twain, "Lies, lies and damned lies"...' Lies. damned lies and statistics. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Can we afford Democracy? From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity Date: 24 Jun 12 - 12:40 AM Bobert: "isn't telling you is that this isn't costing one single American job... Not one of these Buicks is being shipped to the US..." Now isn't that the height of stupidity??!! BOBERT, The reason for giving him $500,000,000,000 and naming him 'Jobs Czar' was to create jobs HERE! WE are the ones to whom the taxpayers thought that the 'stimulus'(?) money was supposed to help? JEEZ-Louise! All O-Bimbo did was help the multinational corporations, and NOT YOU or your kids, or their family, or friends or community, or state, or country..This was a fucking farce, and should of told you who this clown was working for!..and by the way, nobody here can afford one of those Chines Buicks ANYWAY!...They are broke and unemployed! Holy Moses, what a delusional character! Hey, Wanna buy a Democratic bridge up in New York??...You'll make LOT'S of money!! GfS |
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Subject: RE: BS: Can we afford Democracy? From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity Date: 24 Jun 12 - 03:10 AM I hope another candidate decides to run, because if one doesn't, and they have a space to 'write in' a candidate, I'm likely, at this point to write in, "None of the above!" GfS |
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Subject: RE: BS: Can we afford Democracy? From: Bobert Date: 24 Jun 12 - 07:55 AM So your claim is that the $500,000,000,000 went to China, GfinS??? That is not only false but blatantly false but the exact kinda stories coming from the right winged bloggers who are paid BIG $$$ to manufacture BIG ASS LIES... But you, like all loyal TeaPubs believe anything and everything that plays into your Obama-hate... BTW, please furnish a credible source for you conspiracy theory... Not the American Enterprise Institute, The Heritage Council, Crossroads, The American Future Fund or any of the other flowery sounding organization that don't smell like flowers but like outhouses... LA Times, WaPo (no op-eds from delusional folks like Chucky K), Chicago Tribune ***news departments*** will do just fine... Guess I better find a comfy chair... I suspect I'll be waiting a longer that we waited for your alternative health care plan... BTW, didja ever check out Declan Masterson??? B~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Can we afford Democracy? From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity Date: 24 Jun 12 - 04:42 PM Yeah, I dug him....made me think of me 'Little Friend'....I mean, traditional music wise....Here she is, when during this big production she comes out alone, solo, and does this! Thought it was nice! GfS |
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Subject: RE: BS: Can we afford Democracy? From: Don Firth Date: 24 Jun 12 - 05:44 PM Since the following video was recorded, she's growed up a bit and become one of the foremost young concert violinists in the world. No prancing about, mugging at the audience, or sexy posing. She just plays the stuffin' out of a violin. Hilary Hahn Cuter than a bug's ear, too! Don Firth |
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Subject: RE: BS: Can we afford Democracy? From: Greg F. Date: 24 Jun 12 - 06:16 PM 'In the words of Mark Twain, "Lies, lies and damned lies and statistics"...' Sorry, Bruce, et. al., but that ain't Sam Clemens...... its Disraeli. Nonetheless, true. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Can we afford Democracy? From: GUEST,999 Date: 24 Jun 12 - 06:25 PM Greg, I sit corrected, many thanks. For years I've thought that was Twain's. I know he used it, but I just found out he didn't write it. Learned something new today. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Can we afford Democracy? From: Don Firth Date: 24 Jun 12 - 07:36 PM Violin concerto No. 3 in E major, final movement, allegro assai by Johann Sebastian Bach, played by the same young lady (Hilary Hahn) when she's all grown up. Only still photos, unfortunately, but I love this particular violin concerto, especially this final movement. It's downright exuberant! Hilary Hahn. Don Firth |
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Subject: RE: BS: Can we afford Democracy? From: Bobert Date: 24 Jun 12 - 07:59 PM BTW, looks as GfinS has used the signature GfInS dodge... Attack and retreat when confronted with the truth... Guess what, folks... GfinS's 23 June 12 9:40 post is patently false. As for the violin??? It can be played real balls-to-the-wall but 99% of it, IMHO, sounds the same as the next one... Kid came to the IBC (International Blues Challenge) a few years back and won the duo/solo category playing one... Went balls-to-the-wall... B~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Can we afford Democracy? From: Greg F. Date: 24 Jun 12 - 08:55 PM For years I've thought that was Twain's. Well, Twain used it frequently, Bruce - God knows he had REASON to, in the bowels of the "Gilded Age". Which bowels we have pretty much re-created in the present day. Which brings us to Santayana- Those that don't learn from history & all that. Or to Twain's concise summing up: "The God Damned Human Race." |
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Subject: RE: BS: Can we afford Democracy? From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity Date: 25 Jun 12 - 02:22 AM Bobert: "BTW, looks as GfinS has used the signature GfInS dodge... Attack and retreat when confronted with the truth..." Absolute nonsense, Bobert. You could at least try backing up, at least one of your blathering talking points. As for the violinist, I like them both, both are very accomplished...but at least one of them I can talk to, intelligently. She LOVES her God, and her music!!!...and I totally agree with her, that music is a gift from God! Do you think 'affordable Democracy' is?? ....talking points?..squabbling over 'political views'?..the 'left'?..the 'right'?? ...but one thing FOR SURE..music is!! GfS |
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Subject: RE: BS: Can we afford Democracy? From: Bobert Date: 25 Jun 12 - 08:45 AM $400,000,000,000 in US taxpayer $$$ going to China through GM president??? Do you understand how much $$$ $400,000,000,000 is, GfinS??? It's the size of the entire amount spent on infrastructure in the Stimulus Program... Now maybe you'd like to explain to the Peanut Gallery how the most scrutinized president is history could pull off this heist??? Please use your own words and it's okay to elaborate as I am in need of some wacko entertainment... BTW, if you can tie the heist to Obama being a Muslim and born in Africa or Indonesia you will get extra credit... B;~) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Can we afford Democracy? From: dick greenhaus Date: 25 Jun 12 - 12:53 PM 275 postiongs, and none (except my original one) seem to deal with the topic----appointment of city managers with unlimited powers to solve economic problems. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Can we afford Democracy? From: Bobert Date: 25 Jun 12 - 06:04 PM Appointment of city managers ain't the problem, dick... It's who's appointing them... In a democracy local government does... In a dictatorship the central government does.. But never mind that stuff... Waiting on GfinS next post on how Obama embezzled $400,000,000,000, gave it to General Motors CEO to create jobs in China is alot more entertaining... B~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Can we afford Democracy? From: dick greenhaus Date: 25 Jun 12 - 06:56 PM Bobert- I disagree. To me, all-powerful ciy managers are an abomination whether appointed by the GOP, or the Dems, or the Green Party or the central committee of Occupy Nashville. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Can we afford Democracy? From: Bobert Date: 25 Jun 12 - 07:48 PM The point is that in Michigan the Republican state house is dismissing local governments and installing their own town and city managers... That was what I was talking about when I said "depends who is doing the appointing"... B~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Can we afford Democracy? From: Sawzaw Date: 25 Jun 12 - 10:14 PM "What your Tea Party/Republican ***Lie Machine*** isn't telling you is that this isn't costing one single American job... Not one of these Buicks is being shipped to the US... In other words... You are caught yet again spreading TeaPub BIG LIES..." Bobert: You are absolutely right that the Chinese made Buicks will not cost American Jobs. However you are wrong about anybody saying they would. This charge was never made by anybody. You dreamed it up along with your other Bobert facts. American taxpayer money was spent to create jobs in China. Also in Australia. Your money Bobert. The US government owns 33% of GM. Now instead of your usual yelling about lies, do you think your money should be spent to build factories in foreign countries? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Can we afford Democracy? From: Bobert Date: 25 Jun 12 - 10:42 PM Yes... If it means that at the end of the day the US's economy is stronger... Remember the 80s when Ronald Reagan sat back and watched the Japanese steal our entire steel industry... Japan financed that theft through subsidies to it's own steel industries... We sat on our thumbs... Go to Youngstown, Ohio, Saws, and ask the folks there... They will tell you... When the Janette Blast furnace was shut down by the Japanese theft Youngstown's booming downtown became a ghost town... The only thing there now is a high rise prison where businesses use to thrive... Youngstown is now a prison town where even Washington DC prisoners are kept... Nothing much else... Block after block of old department stores and shops all empty... You fight or you lose... If it takes spending a few $$$ for America to stay in the game, so be it... GfinS's claims of $400,000,000,000 are delusional... Obama couldn't find $400,000,000,000 if his life depended on it... But, yes... If we have to support industry in China then we should do it... Either that or down the road ask why we didn't... This is alot different than outsourcing... 180 degrees different... We are not taking American jobs... We are getting ourtrade balance balanced... No jobs are lost here... $$$ comes in... Very little goes out... Business 101... B~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Can we afford Democracy? From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity Date: 25 Jun 12 - 11:48 PM Bobert: "Waiting on GfinS next post on how Obama embezzled $400,000,000,000, gave it to General Motors CEO to create jobs in China is alot more entertaining..." Huh??? I never said that....or anything about GM. I was talking about Immelt, and creating jobs with out tax payer/payback 'stimulus' money. Personally, I don't care what was made where, by who....it wasn't made here, and wasn't used to employ the people who were led to believe it was supposed to help....US...That's all....no more...calm down. You can spin it anyway you want....I don't care.....but take a look at it and......(clears throat.....ahem...mi mi mi.....: 'Something's happenin' here, What it is, ain't exactly clear......" GfS |
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Subject: RE: BS: Can we afford Democracy? From: Don Firth Date: 26 Jun 12 - 12:46 AM According the the traffic laws in most cities, you're supposed to beep when you back up like that, GoofuS. Don Firth |
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Subject: RE: BS: Can we afford Democracy? From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity Date: 26 Jun 12 - 12:52 AM Why??..Did someone's truck run over somebody?? ..and Beep when you back up???..even if I ride a bicycle? GfS |
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Subject: RE: BS: Can we afford Democracy? From: Sawzaw Date: 26 Jun 12 - 07:50 AM Hey Bobert. Thanks for the rational and thoughtful reply. Now how does it make the American economy stronger of those big international companies don't pay any income taxes? It may employ some American office workers to push papers on the foreign operations but wouldn't making things in America give us many more US jobs? "Go to Youngstown, Ohio, Saws" I thought we were investigating those non existent big ass lies about Chinese made Buicks stealing American jobs. Now, somehow you are trying to use Japan, Steel and Regan to justify the use of US taxpayer dollars, intended to create jobs in the US, being used to create jobs in foreign countries. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Can we afford Democracy? From: Bobert Date: 26 Jun 12 - 09:25 AM I agree with that, Sawz... Here's a little known fact... China can give a turn key plant over to GM or any other US company and that plant cannot be considered a taxable asset of that corporation??? I mean, if GM builds a plant in Ohio that plant is a taxable asset... Those are the kinds of loopholes that need to be closed... Off-shore accounts like in the Cayman Islands shelter 100s of billion$ of taxable wealth... Another loophole... Man6y large American corporations pay no corporate "income" taxes... Seems that the tax codes favor the wealthy... Heck, the wealthy are drownin' in cash right now... The Fortune 500 are sitting on $2T+ in uninvested cash??? Hoarded $$$ isn't contributing to the GNP in any manner... But never mind that... It's not news that thr rich have rigged the game... BTW, read up on what happened to the US steel industry... It is a primer on what not to do... People who don't know history tend to repeat it... I don't want to repeat gettin' our clock cleaned by our competitors, thank you... BTW, Part B... The Youngstown example I provided isn't an exaggeration... I've seen it close up... Bruce Springsteen wrote a song about it... I wrote and recorded a song about it long before Bruce's... I been there... I've got a collection of drawings I did of the Janette Furnace... If that ain't a lesson on what-not-to-do then nothing is... That was during Reagan's watch and guess what??? Japan made no bones about what they were doing... Wasn't like it snuck in at night and stole it... This theft was pre-announced and done under the light of day... And we sat back and did nothing... So, if we can use models that allow US to collectively cut into our trade deficit then in the long run that helps the country... I mean, we can complain that we're living on borrowed Chinese $$$ and do nothing or we can compete... Ain't rocket surgery... Yo, GfinS... Don's right... You throw the bomb out there as if there's powder in it ready to explode all over Obama and then when asked to back it up you run like "pigs from a gun"... Normal... B~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Can we afford Democracy? From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity Date: 26 Jun 12 - 09:47 AM Huh??? What are you talking about??..I'll be happy to back up anything...I usually do, then you blather on with talking points..that aren't backed up...Sooo, what was your point you wanted backed up? Shit, you didn't even know about ALEC, til I turned you on to it, backing up something else I said...then you attack us on it, like we support it...go figure. DON,...in either order, they both display some amazing chops ...and Don, here is Lucia Micarelli, violinist, once there, check other videos Don, Lucia Micarelli GfS |
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Subject: RE: BS: Can we afford Democracy? From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity Date: 26 Jun 12 - 09:58 AM Don, more Lucia... This one might interest you, as well. GfS |
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Subject: RE: BS: Can we afford Democracy? From: pdq Date: 26 Jun 12 - 10:08 AM You can find a few large companies that pay little of no Federal tax, but that is very unusual. Overall, the US taxes corporation at the highest rate of any country in the world. With the prosperity in China, the cost of manufacturung there has gone way up. Many US companies would like to bring there production back to the US, but they cannot due to the 30% corporate tax rate and an excess of federal regulations and paper work. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Can we afford Democracy? From: Sawzaw Date: 26 Jun 12 - 10:39 AM Bobert: looks like we have found common ground. That is what civilization is built on. I believe any stimulus money should be spent in the USA on projects that produce the most jobs, not on things that put money into already wealthy pockets like studies and consultants and architects. They should be calculated to get the most jobs per buck. Remember the CCC. we are still benefiting from that make work project. Also the materials and parts should be produced in the USA even if it costs more. On these solar and wind projects, a lot of the stuff is made offshore and the American workers get the privilege of installing it. Why is the US buying Russian made helicopters for Afghanistan? It has to be some sort of political payoff. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Can we afford Democracy? From: Bobert Date: 26 Jun 12 - 11:05 AM Rates don't mean squat, pdq... There are so many loopholes in the corporate tax code that almost any corporation can get away with paying no income tax... When I was in business I set up an S-type corporation... My brother was half owner of a very profitable new car dealership in NoVa and he told me that I needed to get a "certain" tax accountant (name withheld for obvious reasons)who handled accounts of many NoVa "Dulles Corridor" fat cat corporations ... So I met with this guy with my books and without looking at them asked, "How much tax do you want to pay?"... That's purdy much the way the game is played... Any honest corporate tax accountant will tell you that... The tax rate is a big joke... I'd like to see them bring it down to 10% and do away with all the loopholes... That way the government would get something outta the deal... But Exxon will counter with the $Bs it pays in taxes... Yes, it does... Just not on it's profits... Yo Saws, Check out where the money went... A big chunk went into tax cuts... Another big chunk went into shoring entitlements... The largest share, however, did go into infrastructure projects... When I was moving here to NC last summer I drove down Rt. 29 and I-85 and there were, count 'um, 4 major bridge rebuilds on the trip with big signs indicating that the money was from the stimulus... At least one is still going and people showing up for work and getting a paycheck... I will admit that the Obama team got blasted by the TeaPublican PR noise machine and so the perception is that the stimulus was a failure... There's reason why the TeaPubs spent so much $$$ and energy on demonizing a very successful program... They wanted to win the White House back and did a great job on preventing a 2nd stimulus from even being discussed... Any honest economist will tell you that a 2nd stimulus is desperately needed to keep the nation from going back into another recession... The TeaaPub economists know this... That's why the TeaPubs cheer bad news... Even the single mother making $9 an hour with a couple kids knows that when times are bad, borrow and when times are good, pay it off... Ain't rocket science... It's Econ 201... No, it's Econ 001 (remedial, on credit econ for bone-heads)... B~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Can we afford Democracy? From: Greg F. Date: 26 Jun 12 - 11:09 AM Overall, the US taxes corporation at the highest rate of any country in the world. Before the loopholes, exceptions and give-backs, that is. It also taxes the rich at the LOWEST rate of any country in the world. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Can we afford Democracy? From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity Date: 26 Jun 12 - 01:19 PM Bobert: "There's reason why the TeaPubs spent so much $$$ and energy on demonizing a very successful program..." Not nearly as much as the unions spent on Obama's first election campaign!!!! Hey, look over there..you know, the other way! ...and then Obama supports 'free trade'(Nafta), and screws the unions, too!.."Hey, Now look over there..you know, the other way, AGAIN! GfS |
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Subject: RE: BS: Can we afford Democracy? From: Bobert Date: 26 Jun 12 - 01:33 PM Every dollar that the unions have right now for advertising can be matched by any one of 50 rich right wingers who writing some monstrously BIG ass checks... Here's the deal... Romney has had to spend, spend, spend to capture enough delegates to win the nomination and guess what??? Somehow someone is forking over the BIG $$$ to pay for the deluge of Romey/anti-Obama ads that are plastering NC television... It's like 7 to 1 here... Where's all this union $$$... No, where's any union $$$ anywhere??? Unions ain't the boogie-man you TeaPubs think... They work campaigns... Knock on doors but there ain't alot of $$$ out there in the unions war-chest... And, before you go shifting boogie men, George Soros ain't no match for the right... B~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Can we afford Democracy? From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity Date: 26 Jun 12 - 01:49 PM 'Citizens United' is screwed, NO MATTER WHO'S Doing it!!..Big corporations, unions, Soros's organizations, foreign money...whomever. You just pick and choose who it's 'OK' with! Can you spell 'H-Y-P-O-C-R-I-S-Y?????????????...and then you wonder why no one takes you seriously!! GfS |
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Subject: RE: BS: Can we afford Democracy? From: Don Firth Date: 26 Jun 12 - 04:08 PM So, GooduS, you excuse it when the corporation owning billionaires ante up a wad of money to buy an election, but have a hissy-fit when the unions make political contributions? And you insist you're NOT a Right-Winger? Quite droll, that. . . . Don Firth |
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Subject: RE: BS: Can we afford Democracy? From: Bobert Date: 26 Jun 12 - 04:12 PM Yup, as long as those ads are spreading Obama-hate then GfinS one happy camper... B~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Can we afford Democracy? From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity Date: 26 Jun 12 - 04:53 PM How the F--K do you get THAT from my post?????? You turned it around, and there was NOTHING to turn around!!..I said: "'Citizens United' is screwed, NO MATTER WHO'S Doing it!!..Big corporations, unions, Soros's organizations, foreign money...whomever. You just pick and choose who it's 'OK' with! Can you spell 'H-Y-P-O-C-R-I-S-Y?????????????...and then you wonder why no one takes you seriously!! and you come back with: "So, GooduS, you excuse it when the corporation owning billionaires ante up a wad of money to buy an election, but have a hissy-fit when the unions make political contributions? And you insist you're NOT a Right-Winger?" ...and then you have a FEW(very few), devotee parrots, that build on YOUR logic?????????????????????????????????? I rest my case! GfS |
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Subject: RE: BS: Can we afford Democracy? From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity Date: 26 Jun 12 - 05:04 PM ...and to make things even funnier, and proving my point, is check this out:From: Bobert Date: 26 Jun 12 - 04:12 PM "Yup, as long as those ads are spreading Obama-hate then GfinS one happy camper..." and the TIME on this: From: Don Firth Date: 26 Jun 12 - 04:08 PM "So, GooduS, you excuse it when...." You guys tripped over each other, after 'organizing', and tossing each other crackers!! ROLFMAO!!!!! Have you ever had an original though????..or are you stuck in a rut of "Somebody's gotta' hate somebody, let's bitch and divide....it don't matter if it makes sense, let's be liberals!" GfS |
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Subject: RE: BS: Can we afford Democracy? From: saulgoldie Date: 26 Jun 12 - 05:10 PM and...300! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Can we afford Democracy? From: Don Firth Date: 26 Jun 12 - 05:30 PM "Have you ever had an original though????" An original what though? If you're trying to say "an original thought," then, yes, I have quite a number of original thoughts. You see, I don't get my information directly from web sites like Bob Livingston's "Liberty Alerts" or the World News Daily, which is still beating the "birther" hum-drum (even though the governor of Hawaii has said that the "Certificate of Live Birth" IS the official birth certificate in the State of Hawaii). But my original thoughts are based on data which I check for reliability, even when that data seems to reflect my basic viewpoint. My viewpoint is always up for reevaluation in the face of new and reliable information. I don't just pull stuff out of my ass and throw it at the computer screen like some folks here. Have a lovely day....... Don Firth |
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Subject: RE: BS: Can we afford Democracy? From: saulgoldie Date: 26 Jun 12 - 05:37 PM Don, Bobert, we have talked about this...(You know whutamean.) Saul |
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Subject: RE: BS: Can we afford Democracy? From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity Date: 26 Jun 12 - 06:09 PM Don Firth: "Have you ever had an original though????" An original what though? If you're trying to say "an original thought," then, yes, I have quite a number of original thoughts...:" Just checking...to see if you even read the posts that you huff and puff about....and by the way, you are trying to slime your way out of this one, too. I got a novel idea....why don't you guys just knock it off??...You've been playing that game, ever since I got on....misquote, and then get your knickers in a twist, and come off like the OTHER person doesn't know what he's talking about.....AND IT'S YOU!! Stick to music, over trying to defame and insult...and then offer arguments...when there's no disagreements...except what you make up! GfS |
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Subject: RE: BS: Can we afford Democracy? From: Don Firth Date: 26 Jun 12 - 06:25 PM YOU, GoofuS, are the master of Defame and Insult. Long strings of question marks and exclamation points are the hallmark of people who, if they were speaking rather than writing, are frothing at the mouth. All guts, bile, and spleen. No brain involved. Saul is right. Over and out. Don Firth |
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Subject: RE: BS: Can we afford Democracy? From: Bobert Date: 26 Jun 12 - 07:27 PM You have it correct, Don... GfinS does exactly that... GfinS throws out a lot of Tea and then when confronted denied it was Tea??? Well, if it looks like Tea, and quacks like Tea, it's Tea... The entire reference to Obama and GM's CEO using $400,000,000,000 tgo outsource American jobs was 100% USDA Choice Tea... Then GfinS says that the post was misunderstood... Uh huh??? And I was born last night... B~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Can we afford Democracy? From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity Date: 26 Jun 12 - 07:43 PM What an orchestrated cop-out!!! Ya' can't admit when you fuck up, or correct it, and just like the Democratic party, you invite yourselves to go down in flames, because of it! I hope this last exchange, there for all to see, is just another perfect example of who's trolling who, and how they are doing it!!!!...the saddest thing, if it weren't so funny, is you guys are trying to be taken seriously!!! Thank you, for making it SO clear, to so many!!!!!! GfS |
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Subject: RE: BS: Can we afford Democracy? From: Bobert Date: 26 Jun 12 - 07:53 PM I didn't fuck up... You did... You ***suggested*** a conspiracy theory about the $400,000,000,000 that was not based on facts... And just to spice it up you ***implied*** that GM's CEO and Obama were in cahoots... That's what make a conspiracy theory... The Tea Party is built on conspiracy theories and when people come here and throw them out like cyber-grenades intended to cast (horrors...) doubt on Obama as some nefarious president then it comes of as 100% USDA Obama-hatin' Tea... You may not see that in your posts but enough others do for you to take a good look in the mirror... This is your M.O. and it's very Tea-like... Like I've said over and over, if you don't want to be accused of being a Tea Partier then quit serving up more Tea... BTW, did ya' ever hear any of Declan's music??? B;~) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Can we afford Democracy? From: Don Firth Date: 26 Jun 12 - 07:53 PM Ya know, Bobert, GoofuS must think his foot is really delicious. He keeps sticking it in his mouth. Quite a history of this, in fact. If I ever get snowed in and don't have anything amusing to do, I might compile a collection of Goofus's "foot in mouth" exchanges. Pretty hilarious, really! Larry, Curly, and Moe all rolled into one. Don Firth |
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Subject: RE: BS: Can we afford Democracy? From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity Date: 26 Jun 12 - 11:58 PM Bobert: "BTW, did ya' ever hear any of Declan's music???" Yes, i did...and I posted you one back, of Mairead doing a traditional piece, with a step dancer...I was hoping you saw it. I liked the piece you posted...." As to the money Immelt used to start jobs in China..That is well known, no secret, no 'conspiracy theory'....you guys really ought to listen to a variety of 'news' sources, you might be surprised at what you're not hearing, on your favorite. Just a friendly suggestion, because you rarely seem to know much about what others are posting, and it leaves you sorta ill prepared to offer accurate rebuttals. Listen to the 'other' sides....and think it through. Right now, because of the polarization of the people, different 'news' outlets cater to one 'side' or the other. I don't think Akenaton, 999, Little Hawk, myself, number 6, and a lot others can be described as 'Right Wingers'( I don't really know what Sawzaw is, but a lot of his posts are far moreaccurate, than you seem ready to admit)...and yet we seemed to agree more than not. All you guys have left, is calling people you don't agree with, 'Tea Pubs' or whatever...Tea Baggers', and stuff like that. This kind of stubbornness, is going to cost the Democrats both Houses, and the Presidency, if they don't back off being so wrong, and insistent about it.....then we get stuck with the 'right'.....but be of good cheer, nothing is going to go anyway other than the Corporate Banksters are willing to pay for....including these yokels we have in now. Like I said before, Obama needs to square off with the American people, and start telling the truth...not an agenda driven truth...just the truth....because, after all, it will be the people who are the only ones who will end up fixing it. Peace..(Liked Declan) GfS |
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Subject: RE: BS: Can we afford Democracy? From: Sawzaw Date: 27 Jun 12 - 08:46 AM "Even the single mother making $9 an hour with a couple kids knows that when times are bad, borrow and when times are good, pay it off..." So tell me Bobert, exactly has the stimulus etc. spending in bad times done for the single mother making $9 per hour? Is she making more now? Is she working more now? Are her children being educated better? Will they have a better life now? For example, why must we spend $3.4 million that we don't have an of which 40% is borrowed money for a wildlife tunnel in Florida? It might have employed some people for a year but after that there was no residual benefit for them. no continuing jobs created. No lasting benefit to society. No ROI. Maybe a few people can sleep better at night knowing that not so many turtles are being smashed on that little section of the highway system. It was a feel good project and wasteful. If we need to spend 3.4 mil, why not spend it on some day care for the mother? Why not on schools or new books printed in the USA for the American students that will have to pay the bill someday in the future? By the way, there was already a culvert under the road and a fence to direct the wildlife through the culvert but that wasn't good enough. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Can we afford Democracy? From: Bobert Date: 27 Jun 12 - 08:48 AM Wow... You get whiplash from these U-turns, GfinS??? B~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Can we afford Democracy? From: GUEST,999 Date: 27 Jun 12 - 09:05 AM Dick's question has been bugging me for weeks: Can we afford Democracy? Finally, after tossing it around in my head--because answers shouldn't be so hard to find--I have had a eureka moment. The US is no longer a democracy. At the federal level, you have two parties from which to choose. They each do mostly the same things so it's not much of a choice. At the state level most incumbents win, I supposed based on the presumption that even though the elected representatives have done little good for average people they haven't ruined too many people, and those they did ruin likely deserved it for being poor or working-poor. At the municipal level things go to hell and people really don't give a damn because it isn't where they live--unless you are in Detroit I suppose. I have arrived at the same conclusion I reached way back: what the country cannot afford is rich people. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Can we afford Democracy? From: pdq Date: 27 Jun 12 - 09:13 AM "For example, why must we spend $3.4 million that we don't have an of which 40% is borrowed money for a wildlife tunnel in Florida?" Because we should do as much as we can to protect endangered wildlife. It is part of our responsibility as good citizens of this planet. Besides, that single mother you mention can drop he kid off at a neighbor's house, a relative's place or the daycare center run by her church. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Can we afford Democracy? From: Sawzaw Date: 27 Jun 12 - 09:21 AM Hey Bobert. I didn't hear your answer about why should we spend your tax money and money we borrowed for Russian Helicopters. How does that benefit the single mother making $9 per hour? Her kids will have to pay that money back plus interest someday. Defense Secretary Leon Panetta's in for a strafing on Capitol Hill today. He's appearing before the Senate Appropriations Committee's defense subcommittee, but he's likely to face tough questions on the Defense Department's potentially nearly $1 billion deal to buy Russian helicopters for the Afghan military. We've written about this Rosoboronexport contract before, noting that the Moscow-based company is also selling weapons to the Syrian regime of Bashar Assad. Tuesday's comment from Secretary of State Hillary Clinton that Russia is shipping additional attack helicopters to Syria that the regime has been using to kill its own people may mark the tipping point. Clinton said the Obama Administration is "concerned about the latest information we have that there are attack helicopters on the way from Russia to Syria." She warned the shipment "will escalate the conflict quite dramatically." Nonetheless, as recently as Tuesday, the Pentagon defended the sale. It is necessary, Pentagon spokesman George Little said, based on the requirement to outfit the Afghan military with the kind of choppers its pilots have long flown. "We're not buying helicopters for the Syrian regime," Pentagon spokesman George Little noted. "We're buying helicopters in support of the Afghan air force." To reduce Taliban slaughter in Afghanistan, we're apparently willing to look the other way when it comes to enabling Allawite slaughter in Syria. That may be a tad simplistic, but that's the refrain Panetta will hear on the Hill. Little's logic is beginning to look a little less logical. Read more: KBO unwed mother. We have to make jobs in Russia before we help you. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Can we afford Democracy? From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity Date: 27 Jun 12 - 10:12 AM Sawzaw: "KBO unwed mother. We have to make jobs in Russia before we help you." ....and create jobs in China ..and open and not defend our borders without regulating for quotas, as done in the past, as to not impact employment...oh, and sell guns to drug cartels,...not to mention a trillion dollars that someone just lost track of....and...... and what's this about, Bobert? "Wow... You get whiplash from these U-turns, GfinS???" You're the one doing all the spinning. ........................................................ Guest,999: "I have had a eureka moment. The US is no longer a democracy. At the federal level, you have two parties from which to choose. They each do mostly the same things so it's not much of a choice..." Bruce, I know you are a man of common sense....LH, and I, and others have been telling you that for a while..(I'll speak for myself)...Up earlier in the thread you can find such posts, that I trust will not make you feel so 'alone' in your epiphany, and might even give you some extra insights. Scroll back up and read them. I find, that regardless of all that, that good music can be directed to the inner soul of mankind, and the effects of hearing and comprehending the music, makes the two worlds, of the needs of humanity vs the bullshit of politics, clearly distinguishable from each other. Just the boneheads either don't see it, or are not in touch with their soul.....and try to replace it with dizzying logic trains, designed to manipulate masses of non-thinking party robots. ...as for me, and stated before, "I'm not with the party, I'm with the band,".....even solo! Highest Regards Bruce! GfS |
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Subject: RE: BS: Can we afford Democracy? From: Bobert Date: 27 Jun 12 - 10:47 AM Of sure... We can afford democracy... Might of fact, we would be doing a lot better in terms of education, health care, infrastructure, the economy and governance if we had democracy... A number of things would have to change, however, and that's where the push back comes into play... First, we would have eliminate private $$$ from campaoigns and fund them all with public funds... Second, we would have to ask a neutral nation, like Sweden or Norway, to redistrict our voting districts... Thirdly, we would have to educate our voters with a fact-based curriculum... We do that and we have democracy but it's a 3 legged stool... Need all 3... (Sawz... Don't get your hopes up that I will be naive enough to fall into your Teribus-Trap and argue/debate with your right winged blogger buddies over conspiracy theories... Homie has more miles on the odometer than to play that game...) B~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Can we afford Democracy? From: beardedbruce Date: 27 Jun 12 - 10:51 AM Bobert: "Thirdly, we would have to educate our voters with a fact-based curriculum..." Who gets to decide the "facts"? YOU have shown yourself to play quite a bit with them. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Can we afford Democracy? From: Bobert Date: 27 Jun 12 - 11:08 AM Well, if it's science, then scientists... There is enough agreement on science to create a fact-based science curriculum... If it's economics, the same... History??? The same... Government??? The same... The problem we have is that if there is enough $$$ behind the one wacko who disagrees with the other 99 scientists then, as in global warming, the one wacko gets the microphone... That's the part I was talking about... Three legged stool... Get the money out and the 99 get a say... B~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Can we afford Democracy? From: Stringsinger Date: 27 Jun 12 - 01:00 PM A fact-based society is one in which ideas are examined carefully and weighed pro and con without resorting to propaganda, bullying (a practice now employed by many Republicans), or misleading statements. This requires education, which is now being undermined in America by Republican groups who want to restrict knowledge to the wealthy classes. This is why the Public Educational system is being destroyed by charter schools which require money, not expertise, to function. Schools and prisons are being privatized because there's money to be made. There is a pipeline between the destruction of Public Education and the filling of America's corporate prisons. The latter is not making anyone safe. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Can we afford Democracy? From: Don Firth Date: 27 Jun 12 - 03:45 PM Bobert's three-point program is right on the button! Excellent! I am particularly enthusiastic about point number two: "Ask a neutral nation, like Sweden or Norway, to redistrict our voting districts" I would go even further: Ask a neutral nation, like Sweden or Norway (excellent choices, by the way!) not just to redistrict our voting districts (eliminating all the "gerrymandering" that's been done), but to also OVERSEE our elections, in the same way WE purport to oversee previously fixed and corrupt elections in other countries. The more I think about it, the better I like it!! Don Firth |
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Subject: RE: BS: Can we afford Democracy? From: Bobert Date: 27 Jun 12 - 05:30 PM Don't even get me started on charter schools, Strings... Grrrrrr!!! Makes me madder than a wet hen... These sumabiches are not only watering down public education but... ...using charter schools to re-segregate schools... B~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Can we afford Democracy? From: Sawzaw Date: 27 Jun 12 - 05:58 PM Hey Bobert. I still didn't hear your answer about why should we spend your tax money and money we borrowed for Russian Helicopters. It is a straight up question like you demand others to answer but you seem to be too self righteous to answer it. I don't think it is too hard to answer. I don't like it. If I could, I would stop it. I don't like American lives, resources and jobs being beign pissed away for a "necessary" war. Waiting for Mr. straight shooter to answer. Sorry Bobert, you are going object but I feel compelled to read your own words back to you in order to explain why I am asking for answer: "Ake, you ain't read enough of her subterfuge and evasive BS... She absolutely refuses to answer straight up questions... She runs like "pigs from a gun" and then plays her little games by not answering the questions but rather ask a multitude of meaningless rhetorical questions of her own... You may be innamored by her intellect but you certainly ain't looking into her motives... Ol' pea-under-the-shell game she has been playing here since she arrived... If you are fascinated by it, fine... All I can see is someone filled with hate who won't come clean... B~" |
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Subject: RE: BS: Can we afford Democracy? From: Bobert Date: 27 Jun 12 - 07:36 PM Yo, Sawz... And you won't... It's a T-trap, as in Teribus... It's kinda like chess... You learn not to box in your king... Whatever blogger has this conspiracy theory going, it is a complete waste of my time to have my attention to the big stories to get bogged down with T-traps... BTW, when I was arguing that invading Iraq was a stupid idea Teribus was busy laying all these little side-bar t-traps tp divert attention from the big picture... Here's an idea, Sawz... Find someone else who is willing to play your games 'cause this ol' hillbilly is too long in the tooth to allow my well earned wisdom to go in the crapper... Maybe you coujd start your own "Russian helicopter-gate" thread... B;~) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Can we afford Democracy? From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity Date: 27 Jun 12 - 07:53 PM Getting back to the topic of the thread, a little more, AND finding something of interest, to most of us, BUT FOR VARIOUS reasons, you might find this VERY interesting. It covers aspects of a number of sad events, and exposes some connections, linked to a lot of what I've been post. Take the time to read it, and don't 'gloss' over what you don't like, nor cherry pick the things you do like. Those who blindly buy into the myth of Ronald Reagan will no doubt not read the following revelations of the little known facts of Reagan's links to organized crime, his betrayal of working actors and actresses as President of SAG, when he sold them out to the great benefit of his benefactor MCA, in direct violation of his office, and his betrayal of the working men and women he was supposed to represent (would not be the last time), and he received a massive pay off from MCA for it. In addition, and far more seriously, as President of the US, he quashed a major federal investigation into the involvement of organized crime, in MCA and the motion picture industry in general, and two prominent investigators, who were well into the investigation, lost their jobs because they would not bow to the pressure and interference from Reagan's white house. July 15, 1999 The Corruption of Ronald Reagan Copyright © 1986, 1989, 1999 by Dan E. Moldea President Bill Clinton's enemies love to make much of his Hollywood connections, as well as his testimony before a federal grand jury and an odd land deal in which he and his wife lost money. Yet, they refuse to compare the Clinton record with the case history of Ronald Reagan, whom most Clinton-haters continue to worship and attempt to canonize. Once again, the President's harsh critics continue to demonstrate that they have two conflicting standards for public officials: one for those they like and another for those they don't like. For instance, consider the following: Ronald Reagan was an invention of the Hollywood conglomerate, MCA, which was founded in 1924 by Jules Stein, a Chicago ophthalmologist who quickly became friendly with the local underworld. Every facet of Reagan's life, from his careers in acting and politics to his financial successes, were directed by MCA, which, with the help of the Mafia, was the most powerful force in Hollywood from the mid-1940s until the Bronfman family purchased the company in 1995. Reagan came to Los Angeles in 1937 to make motion pictures, and, in 1940, MCA bought out his talent agency. Lew Wasserman became Reagan's personal agent; he negotiated a million-dollar contract with Warner Brothers on Reagan's behalf. In 1946, Wasserman became the president of MCA, and the following year, Reagan, with his film career already in decline, became the president of the Screen Actors Guild. By his own admission, Reagan immediately aligned himself with the corrupt Teamsters and other mob-connected unions in an effort to combat Hollywood Reds. A sweetheart relationship developed between MCA and the guild, which culminated in July 1952 during Reagan's fifth consecutive term as SAG's president. Reagan and Laurence Beilenson, an attorney for MCA who had previously served as SAG's general counsel and had represented Reagan in his 1949 divorce from Jane Wyman, negotiated an exclusive blanket waiver with SAG that permitted MCA to engage in unlimited film production. The agreement violated SAG's bylaws, which prohibited talent agencies from employing their own clients, and no other talent agency was granted a similar agreement at that time. A Justice Department memorandum indicated that the waiver became "the central fact of MCA's whole rise to power." At the end of Reagan's fifth term, he began to have serious financial problems, particularly with the IRS. In response, MCA negotiated a deal with the Last Frontier Hotel in Las Vegas--which was then operated by Chicago mobsters--for Reagan to host a song-and-dance show for two weeks and to receive enough money to cover his back tax debt. When Reagan returned to Hollywood, MCA, through its newly formed Revue Productions, hired him to host its flagship television program, The General Electric Theater for $125,000 a year. He was paid additional fees when he produced episodes for the series. Despite his status as a television producer, Reagan remained on SAG's board in another violation of the guild's bylaws, which prohibited producers from holding office in SAG. In 1959, when Reagan ran for an unprecedented sixth term as SAG's president, his opponents raised the bylaws issue. Publicly, Reagan denied that he had ever produced The General Electric Theater--a flat-out lie. Wasserman had encouraged Reagan to run again. MCA was facing sensitive negotiations with SAG over residual motion picture rights for actors. The issue eventually forced SAG to strike in 1960, and Reagan became the actors' chief negotiator. Labor attorney Sidney Korshak aided Reagan and the studios in the final settlement. Years later, The New York Times characterized Korshak as the link between the legitimate business world and organized crime. The contract that Reagan and company arranged with the studios is still known in Hollywood as "The Great Giveaway"; it provided residuals for actors only from films made after 1960. This greatly benefited MCA, which had purchased the film library of Paramount Pictures in 1959. Now, MCA could keep all the profits. In 1962, the Justice Department filed a federal antitrust suit against MCA on the basis that it was both a talent agency and a production company; SAG was charged as a coconspirator. Reagan was the subject of criminal and civil investigations by both the FBI and a federal grand jury in Los Angeles. A Justice Department memorandum quoted a Hollywood source as saying, "Ronald Reagan is a complete slave of MCA who would do their bidding on anything." Reagan was subpoenaed before the grand jury, but he appeared to experience amnesia during his testimony on February 5, 1962, and failed to recall the major decisions that had been made when SAG had granted MCA the exclusive blanket waiver in 1952. Federal prosecutors were so convinced that Reagan had perjured himself repeatedly during his testimony that they subpoenaed his and his wife's income tax returns for the years 1952 to 1955. Nancy Reagan had been a member of SAG's board of directors since 1951. The entire transcript of this testimony is contained in my 1986 book, Dark Victory: Ronald Reagan, MCA, and the Mob (Viking Press, pp. 167-201), which is now out of print. (Previously, the most influential book about Reagan--which contained only one brief cite in the index to MCA and no mention of Jules Stein--had been written by Washington Post reporter Lou Cannon, whose 1982 book, Reagan, had been published by Putnam, a subsidiary of MCA.) However, in July 1962--in the wake of MCA's purchase of Decca Records, the parent company of Universal Pictures--MCA agreed to abolish its talent agency. As a result, all charges against and investigations of the company and its alleged co-conspirators were dropped and the record of the case was sealed. Deeply affected by the breakup of MCA, Reagan, a lifelong Democrat, became an anti-big government Republican. He had been urged to do so by his own political mentor, Taft Schreiber, a longtime MCA vice president, and by MCA's founder, Jules Stein, both of whom were active in Republican politics. On December 13, 1966, the month after Reagan was elected governor of California, Schreiber and Stein, along with Reagan's personal attorney, William French Smith (who later became Reagan's attorney general), sold 236 of Reagan's 290 acres in Malibu Canyon to Twentieth Century-Fox. The purchase price was $1.93 million, or $8,178 an acre—even though Fox's experts had appraised the land at only $944,000, or $4,000 an acre. In July 1968, Reagan used the remaining 54 acres in Malibu Canyon (which were appraised at $165,000) as a down payment on a $346,950 property in Riverside, California, that he was buying from Kaiser Aluminum Company. However, there was a proviso in the contract that said that if Kaiser couldn't sell the 54 acres within a year, Reagan would have to buy them back. By July 1969, Kaiser hadn't sold the land. To bail Governor Reagan out, Stein set up the 57th Madison Corporation, which was chartered in Delaware, and personally purchased the property for $165,000. Stein died in 1981, soon after Reagan's inauguration as President of the United States. As President, Reagan watched as his Justice Department quashed major federal investigations of the Mafia's penetration of both MCA and the entire motion picture industry, which were being conducted by the Los Angeles office of the U.S. Strike Force Against Organized Crime. Two highly respected Strike Force prosecutors, Marvin Rudnick and Richard Stavin, lost their jobs because of their refusal to succumb to pressure from the Reagan Administration. ..................................................................... ...and to think, that before I bitched on Mudcat, I bitched at him!!!!!..in public...and on a huge P.A. system, and was told that he was listening!~!! Also, this ties together with the links of the organized crime syndicate, government, and our two parties...and influence peddling. now I know that Reagan is the 'darling' of the Tea Party, while I point out the corruption of all the parties...because they're all fucking corrupted to the bone. Some may relish in this, others not....but it covers a lot of them! Your Welcome, GfS |
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Subject: RE: BS: Can we afford Democracy? From: Bobert Date: 27 Jun 12 - 08:16 PM Can you do explain what ever it is that you think is relevant to this thread without the cut & pastes??? BTW, I ain't a Clinton fan so maybe we can agree on one thing... B~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Can we afford Democracy? From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity Date: 27 Jun 12 - 09:01 PM Bobert: "Can you do explain what ever it is that you think is relevant to this thread without the cut & pastes???" Yeah, I didn't feel like typing all that....(dumb question)...and I even made a link to back up my post. You should try it, because every time I do it the other way, some whacked out Democratic Party zealot comes on blathering, making an ass of himself, he even has a friend to help him make an ass of himself! ...and..... ..as far as "..explain what ever it is that you think is relevant to this thread..."... Well, the thread title is "Can we afford Democracy?". I know some would like to confine it to the exact topic being discussed, in that moment, but hey, EVERYTHING that is up for discussion revolves around what to do with 'what corruption has wrought us'...and then when I point this out, some whacked out Democratic Party zealot comes on blathering, making an ass of himself, he even has a friend to help him make an ass of himself! Well, you asked! ..but regards, anyway! GfS P.S. It is an interesting post, nonetheless!...I got more on most all the toads, that have masqueraded as 'Superman Idol Presidents" since they shot the last real one, even if you didn't like him(and he had his skeletons in the closet,too!)...even more on some of your 'Wonder Representatives'!!! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Can we afford Democracy? From: Bobert Date: 27 Jun 12 - 09:14 PM Reagan had more than a few problems... And he left the country with even more... People forget the housing bubble under Reagan... They forget he busted unions and used the full force of US government to do so setting off a 30 year binge of Boss Hog union busting... People forget the debt he racked up... People forget (on the other side that) he told the Repubs in Congress not to play games with the debt ceiling and that he raised taxes several times... B~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Can we afford Democracy? From: Don Firth Date: 27 Jun 12 - 09:33 PM And his systematic disassembly of regulatory agencies such as the Securities and Exchange Commission (which, had it been functional, would have prevented our current financial mess) and various other such agencies, allowing the corporations and banks to play it deuces wild. By the way, Ayn Rand thought Ronald Reagan was the bee's knees, which should give some idea of what he was up to. Don Firth |
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Subject: RE: BS: Can we afford Democracy? From: Sawzaw Date: 27 Jun 12 - 11:13 PM "allow my well earned wisdom to go in the crapper." Like being the only person in the world who knows the west bank is no bigger than Washington DC? "Whatever blogger has this conspiracy theory going" Reuters: The Syrian government's use of Russian-made arms has thrown a spotlight on the Pentagon's purchase of Russian helicopters for the Afghan military.... So Reuters is a blog now? If you don't want to answer a straight up question like you say others should, it can only mean one thing. You don't care if your tax money is spent on Russian Helicopters in lieu of helping Americans. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Can we afford Democracy? From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity Date: 28 Jun 12 - 02:53 AM Yes!!..You guys should address Sawzaw's question!!! That way, in the exchange, the truth may come out...even the reasons WHY. There is NO winning an argument or debate, if the truth doesn't come out!!...unless you wish to be as the Greek sophists...all they had to do was out-logic, others in the Senate, and it became law, and true..EVEN IF IT WASN'T!! SawZaw's info, BTW is being reported, just as he is running it down. I also heard about it. Now, what does that have to do with "Can we afford Democracy?" It ALL DOES!!..including the bit on Reagan!...and they are all tied in!! Don't believe me? Think back, on all the blasting debates that go on in here....think of the main subjects they revolve around..... other than 'social issues(?)'..... (Not in any special order): 1. Financial institutions running am-muck with cart-blanch corrupt scams, upon the American tax payer, and rifling the economy...including the privately owned Federal Reserve, with their IRS sidekick collectors and enforcers.....works through both parties, offering 'deals' to help the 'little guy', (Democrat),while empowering the banksters to government deals (catering to Republicans), opening the gate(Glass-Steagal) to collect on the biggest financial scam in history! (promoted by Republicans, signed into law by Clinton(Democrat)..then closed again) 2. Mega-oil companies/corporations, who seemingly are involved with illegal wars all over the place...including the Cuban 'Bay of Pigs', where the Bush family's ship, was the supply ship,(from Zapata Oil), and Bechtel in the Mid-East Gulf, Schultz was CEO of Bechtel, and so on and so forth....Big pharma is part of that(mostly Republican). 3. The various works of the CIA and black box budgets, doing weird stuff internationally..taxpayer costs beyond belief...and doing stuff, pretty much at will...and of course in secret, including facilitating the 'illegal' drug trade...and arms deals...etc, etc.(Both Democrats and Republicans favor their covert ops, depending who's (Whose party President) is selling the idea...make us proud! 4. Organized crime syndicates, who muscled in on the unions, and bought off politicians, distributed the drugs, and facilitated a LOT of corruption, to get their ways. Mostly drugs and unions(Democrats), 'developments' (Republicans), labor(Dems), transportation infrastructure(Repubs) etc etc. ...and all those events, Vietnam, Iran-Contra, the Iranian hostage release, the mid east, Mexican drug cartels,...oh, might as well mention Afghanistan's opium trade, too, arms sales, corrupted financial dealing around the world, Mid-East oil wars, taxing phony causes, and more, can all be traced back to these primary four....right? What an ironic coincidence......they, segments of certain organized crime, oilmen, intelligence community, were All implicated in the events, Nov.22,1963, Dallas......within a month of Kennedy issuing a statement of auditing and abolishing the Fed!...and with each of them, with something directly to gain in each group, they put together the coup, took control of our political system, and we've been declining, ever since...and the policies we clamor over, ever since, has been whooped up demand and outcry to have one of these groups programs foisted upon us.....NO MATTER THE COST! "Can we afford Democracy?" I'm not sure how it handles.... Can we at least test drive it?? GfS |
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Subject: RE: BS: Can we afford Democracy? From: GUEST,999 Date: 28 Jun 12 - 03:43 AM Anyone interested in the "arms deal" (instead of the argument) should read the following. Of course, since I'm mostly a rotten sonuvabitch, I hate to interrupt a good fight. http://www.al-monitor.com/pulse/originals/2012/al-monitor/russian-arms-sales-to-syria-comp.html This might give y'all some facts to work with. Please carry on. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Can we afford Democracy? From: Bobert Date: 28 Jun 12 - 09:32 PM A good fight is one where both sides play by the rules... Saws is the master of dishonesty in taking statements out of context... GfinS is the master of dodging questions and then blaming those those who call GfinS on dodging as dodging... No good fight here... Just the same ol' shit from the same ol' BS artists: GfinS and Sawz... B~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Can we afford Democracy? From: Sawzaw Date: 28 Jun 12 - 10:45 PM "master of dishonesty in taking statements out of context" Bobert can either put his statements in context or continue to be a blowhard. Subject: RE: BS: Hamas achieves its goals From: Bobert - PM Date: 09 Feb 09 - 07:28 PM Oh??? Then why have the Palestinians been hearded like cattle into what amounts to be concentration camps... The West Bank has the highest density of any place in the Middle East... That is a "concentration camp", Brucie... You don't have to have the gas chambers to have a concentration camp.. Subject: RE: BS: Hamas achieves its goals From: John on the Sunset Coast - PM Date: 09 Feb 09 - 08:55 PM Sorry Bobert, I misread your previous post re the West Bank. It is not even close to being the densest populated area in the Mid East or almost anywhere. According to Encarta, "In 2008 the estimated population of the West Bank was 1,495,681. Population density was 255 persons per sq km (661 per sq mi)." The Gaza Strip with multiple thousands per sq km is as I noted not even the most dense in the Mid East. Subject: RE: BS: Hamas achieves its goals From: Bobert - PM Date: 09 Feb 09 - 09:32 PM Hey, ya'll... Ya' ever looked at satilite picture of the West Bank??? I don't give a flyin' fig if ya'll wanta play games about how packed it is.... It is packed with people.... When you think of it's size... Ahhhhh, no bigger than the Washington D.C. metropolitan area, it is one very packed and "concentrated" population center. Actual real world facts: The West Bank has a population density of 758 people per sq mile compared to 2560 in Bahrain, 920 in Lebanon and slightly higher in Israel with 750 per sq mile District of Columbia area = 68.2 square miles Population 2006 = 581,530 Density = 8529 people per sq mile West Bank area = 2263 sq mi Come on Bobert, put it in context for us so you can give your lungs a rest. Also tell us what GFS dodged? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Can we afford Democracy? From: GUEST,999 Date: 28 Jun 12 - 10:56 PM Where I grew up, a good fight was 1) a fight ya won 2) a fight ya lost but got the fucker later But, times was tougher then. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Can we afford Democracy? From: Bobert Date: 28 Jun 12 - 11:05 PM Thems were my times, too, brucie... Ask Clarkie Crumbar if ya ever run into him... He got #2 on yer good fight criteria... B~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Can we afford Democracy? From: GUEST,999 Date: 29 Jun 12 - 12:50 AM Bobert, someday, after a two-fer, we'll have to discuss blues. You may not be my real brother, but yer close enuf. B PS I know we get into it now and then, but anytime I'd need someone to 'take my back', you'd be it. You are however, a miserable sonamabitch. No offense. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Can we afford Democracy? From: GUEST Date: 29 Jun 12 - 01:27 AM Stereo politicians speaking out of both sides of their mouths ..and Romney, "The first thin i will do is I will repeal Obamacare...."...Blah blah blah......... .........and GfS...... I told you the provisions were all screwed up!!! GfS |
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Subject: RE: BS: Can we afford Democracy? From: Jack the Sailor Date: 29 Jun 12 - 01:31 AM Bobert, Please don't fight with them. They are tar babies. But here is the bad part. It isn't tar that they are full of. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Can we afford Democracy? From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity Date: 29 Jun 12 - 01:37 AM Stereo politicians speaking out of both sides of their mouths ..and Romney, "The first thin i will do is I will repeal Obamacare...."...Blah blah blah......... .........and GfS...... I told you the provisions were all screwed up!!! GfS |
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Subject: RE: BS: Can we afford Democracy? From: GUEST,999 Date: 29 Jun 12 - 02:07 AM You can say that again. But forthwith all, you have. Gentlemen, may we have some decorum? I don't know whether either of you ever heard 'One Too Many Mornings' written by Dylan. If so, recall the line. If not, do so--listen that is. "You'll be right from your side And I'll be right from mine, We're both one too many mornings and A thousand miles behind." |
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Subject: RE: BS: Can we afford Democracy? From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity Date: 29 Jun 12 - 02:31 AM When i was reading it, and saw some incredible confusing language/double speak in it, and was asked about it, i quoted these lines from Biff Rose: "The voice of deception has uneven rhythms," ..but then, I'm a musician, not party guy. so how else would you describe it?? Now listen, and you'll see why i said what I've said before several times before....When the next administration takes over, and by all indications it will sooner than you may like, ALL the power of this thing will be in their hands!!..AND...in the provisions, there is a LOT of stuff, that gives 'the Secretary' power to add stuff, as needed. THAT MY DEAR MUD-PUPPIES IS REALLY SCARY!!..because if the 'Romulin' is elected the gates of 'right wing hell' will be unleashed, with all it's 'glory'...and if Obama stays in(unlikely, and both houses will more than likely be Republicunt, in the backlash) he is such a lyin' sack of shit, God only knows what new crap he'll foist on you! Remember, when I posted that BEFORE it went back for 'reconciliation'?.....well, I also said, that the first one would be their first choice....but the horse poop that was written in it, they thought would NEVER pass!! Boy, are some of the naive ideo-lames in for a REAL surprise!! They should have scrapped it, as I said, (somethings in this one are Ok, like the precondition stuff), but the other shit, is downright evil!.... ...but, at this point, while you're in orgasmic delirium, it would be pointless to go into it. So, enjoy your moment...lay back and light up a smoke....that's what most people do, after they've been fucked! Regards, Bruce, George and the other 'brighter' ones! GfS |
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Subject: RE: BS: Can we afford Democracy? From: Bobert Date: 29 Jun 12 - 08:11 AM The thing I can't get by with Biff Rose is the music side... I mean, I hear the music first and then if I like it then I go back to see if I can figure out the words... BTW, "brightest" is subjective... To a complete retard just about everyone seems bright... B~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Can we afford Democracy? From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity Date: 29 Jun 12 - 09:59 AM Bobert: "To a complete retard just about everyone seems bright..." I'll take that from an expert! GfS |
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Subject: RE: BS: Can we afford Democracy? From: GUEST,999 Date: 29 Jun 12 - 12:39 PM Guys, read the following very closely: Thank you. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Can we afford Democracy? From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity Date: 30 Jun 12 - 02:46 AM Oh Bruce, I read it all...I saw right through it, it was an illuminating brilliant piece....or something like that! Regards! GfS |
