Tech: CB / Shortwave Radio?

Subject: Tech: CB / Shortwave Radio?
From: Songwronger
Date: 02 Jul 12 - 06:42 PM

Just finished reading a book called "Two-way Radio and Scanners for Dummies." It covered most types of radios out there, but I still have lots of questions. Thought perhaps someone here has experience with CB radio and/or shortwave.

We want to set up a small radio center. Things we'd like to be able to do:

1) Pick up local weather 24/7, over the weather channels.
2) Tune in to shortwave broadcasts from around the world. The bigger news-oriented stations.
3) Communicate via CB radio in the event of emergencies.

A modest enough goal, but GEEZ there are lots of types of equipment out there.

If anyone feels up to giving some advice, I would appreciate it...on either CB, shortwave, or both. Or antennas. We live in a hilly area (of the U.S.) and I expect we'll need to put up an antenna.

Thanks.

Subject: RE: Tech: CB / Shortwave Radio?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 02 Jul 12 - 09:38 PM

There is nothing useful on CB in the UK these days. CB transmission (within lawful power limits - 4 watts UK) and whether FM or AM (unlawful in most of the EU including the UK) has a reliable range of only about 4 miles.

I am unclear of US antenna regulations or power limits. If you used a Sirio Starduster (the design was originally American, but Sirio are Italian) and about 100 watts you may be able to get a consistent transmit range of about 10 to 15 miles to a vehicle fitted with a base-loaded quarter wave antenna about 4 or 5 feet long.

You cannot (that is CAN NOT) transmit without an antenna. CB is unreliable in hilly terrain - and FM worse than AM in this respect but AM is generally worse affected by all interference.


In almost all parts of the world you need an amateur radio licence to transmit other than on specified and limited citizen band frequencies.   In many you need a licence to receive but in a large number of those there is a general permission to operate broadcast receiving equipment.

Weather Radio seems to be a largely US idea. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Weather_radio.


The UK is heading for an analogue-free future. When the USA and other countries will do likewise remains to be seen. Digital Audio Broadcasts are inherently short-range. Many non-US stations broadcast in languages other than English which may limit the usefulness to Americans of their broadcasts.

WARNING - it is very likely that the re-broadcast of someone else's broadcast signal will be an infringment of copyright - if you were planning that.



I do vaguely wonder if what you propose is sort of some survivalist enterprise, in which case by the time it would be much use there will be nothing left to re-transmit.

Subject: RE: Tech: CB / Shortwave Radio?
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 02 Jul 12 - 10:43 PM

CB limits are 5 watts to the final- best dependable range with a good base station antenna would be maybe 30 miles tops.

Weather is VHF around 174 MHZ. Receivers available with multiple channels ( local/regional)

Short wave- A good general coverage receiver would be .5 to 30 MHZ- BUT there are .5 to 1000MHZ if you want them. MAKE SURE that you cam receive AM and single sideband below 30 MHZ, AM, FM, and SSB above 30 MHZ.

Best receive antenna for short wave ( .5 to 30 MHZ is a good DIPOLE or two. Simple to make, semi-directional ( off the flat sides) and tunable to the band of interest. You need to get them at least a quarter wavelength above the ground. Under 21 MHZ you can easily listen to other continents, especially at night.

The is a discone antenna for receiving 30 - 1000 MHZ- looks like a wire Xmas tree. Might be worth getting, but the higher frequencies are of mixed interest.
Other than the ham bands, weather, and aircraft, they are cell phone, utility, business use, etc- all line of sight.

Subject: RE: Tech: CB / Shortwave Radio?
From: GUEST,999
Date: 02 Jul 12 - 10:50 PM

http://www.hamradiolicenseexam.com/what-is-ham-radio.htm

That might be more useful to you.

Subject: RE: Tech: CB / Shortwave Radio?
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 02 Jul 12 - 10:58 PM

CB (Citizens Band) has a very short range and no rules to speak of. You'd be better off finding programs to listen to via the Internet than CB. On the other hand, while there are hoops to jump through and tests to become a HAM radio operator, you get a lot bigger antenna and a lot more powerful radio in the process.

Amateur Radio from Wikipedia. Bruce's link looks pretty good, concise, also.

Shortwave is different, it can be very interesting, I used to listen to it as a kid and you can still buy some decent shortwave radios. I don't know what is broadcasting out there these days in a world dominated by SMS and the Information Superhighway. You might want to google "Shortwave Broadcasts in English" to find sites like this.

SRS

Subject: RE: Tech: CB / Shortwave Radio?
From: Leadfingers
Date: 02 Jul 12 - 11:51 PM

A bit out of touch now , but back in the day we used basic CB for boat to boat coms on canal trips (In UK) and often had to switch channel because of illegal (VERY high power) transmissions , often from truckers who still use CB quite a lot . No Info on US usage though .
   Freak conditions CAN cause some strange effects - On one occasion we had a minor panic on an airfield (RAF) with a 'strange' call from Crash One (Land Rover with Low Power VHF set with less than ten miles range) which was NOT our Crash One - It was another field over a hundred miles away !

Subject: RE: Tech: CB / Shortwave Radio?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 03 Jul 12 - 12:07 AM

Truckers in the UK hardly use CB now.

Subject: RE: Tech: CB / Shortwave Radio?
From: Songwronger
Date: 03 Jul 12 - 12:17 AM

Well, primarily we'd want the ability to follow the weather.

Shortwave to stay informed.

CB for local communication and emergency contact.

This is the last piece of a "survival" setup. The property's about 1.5 miles from a town of a hundred. There's a volunteer fire department that monitors the emergency CB channel and relays medical and law enforcement info. And there's a highway a mile away, so passing motorists could keep us current on nearby metropolitan situations, in the event of social unrest. We don't need much range on a two-way radio, and CB with a decent outside antenna should serve just fine.

Shortwave would be a way to keep news coming in, in the event of an emergency. One emergency decree and the net (this one we're using now) could be gone overnight. So shortwave would at least keep us informed.

Thanks for all the input. The whole world of radio is new to me, and I don't expect to ever figure it out. But I don't think I need to know too much to set up a functioning system.

I need to keep the cost down, though, and one thing I was wondering about is sharing an antenna between the CB and the shortwave. Is that possible? I'm thinking I should start with the antenna and work backwards.

Subject: RE: Tech: CB / Shortwave Radio?
From: Songwronger
Date: 03 Jul 12 - 12:21 AM

There are lots of mobile CB users in the area, by the way. The locals never fell out of the habit of using them. Lots of the big whip antennas on trucks and all that.

Subject: RE: Tech: CB / Shortwave Radio?
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 03 Jul 12 - 12:47 AM

They may be out there with those antennas and all, but what they have to say I don't want to hear! I've driven cross country many times, and for several years I had a CB radio with me. I heard enough to convince me that most of them just like to hear themselves talk.

SRS

Subject: RE: Tech: CB / Shortwave Radio?
From: ChrisJBrady
Date: 03 Jul 12 - 12:57 AM

"From: Richard Bridge - PM
Date: 03 Jul 12 - 12:07 AM

Truckers in the UK hardly use CB now."

Hmph - they use mobile (cell) phones now whilst driving which is illegal. And with smart phones a lot now use these for texting and even FGS Facebook.

Subject: RE: Tech: CB / Shortwave Radio?
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 03 Jul 12 - 02:48 AM

CB is still used some in the US, especially by long-haul truckers. Power limits are about the same as given above for the UK. It is a specific part of the rules for CB that it is intended for 2-way communication, and "broadcasting" anything for unknown listeners, especially music or relays of commercial broadcasts is specifically prohibited.

It is expected when you "key up" that you intend to talk to a another person, and expect a reply from same. The rules do allow you to ask for "someone who knows what the weather is up the road," or to ask for help with route conditions or directions. "Broadcasting" - i.e. transmitting when you don't know whether anyone is there to reply - is generally accepted to report unusual traffic conditions, accidents, unusual weather and the like. Although "bear reports" to warn other drivers of the location of law enforcement vehicles, speed traps, and/or whether the port of entry scales are open when you cross a state line, are common, but many states have their own laws that proclaim particular ones of those kinds of reports to be illegal.

A difference between using a cell phone for communication on the road versus a CB is that only the person you call on your cell phone can answer you, while a CB call can get a response from anyone within range - and a warning or information message can also be heard by anyone in range. Whether that's a useful distinction depends on how likely it is that anyone will be withing range of your CB, and the "user density" accessible to any but the "in crowd" (mostly truckers) has been in decline for some time in most parts of the US.

The intended range for CB communication is generally considered about 15 miles within the US highway systems (usually less in congested areas), but the frequency ranges used for the 40 channels are low enough that signals "aimed up" a little can bounce off upper layers of the atmosphere, and the rebounding downward pointed waves can bounce off the ground, making it possible to "talk to" people at rather large distances. Called "skip communication," it is illegal to do this deliberately (and for consistent results it's usually necessary to exceed legal power limits), but "accidents happen" if you work hard enough at setting up to have one. Without preparation, I've received fairly large fragments of conversations in Cincinnati while driving over the "divide" in the northern Rockies - about 1500(?) miles away, and there are "location pairs" that are known to have frequent long range "skips" that really are just accidents.

So far as I've been able to tell, there is very little use of "shortwave" communication of the kinds we were familiar with even a couple of decades ago. Nearly all who operate under an "amateur license" now use systems very much like cell phones, in which the amateur's radio (usually a handset) communicates with the nearest relay, and the messages are passed from relay to relay until a destination is reached (just like cell phones or the internet). There still are shortwave broadcast stations, and one usually can pick up some coast guard and ship/boat communications, but for those who don't need it as a necessary safety tool it's largely a "listeners' hobby."

John

Subject: RE: Tech: CB / Shortwave Radio?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 03 Jul 12 - 03:21 AM

Using the same antenna for your broadcast receiver as for your CB transmitter is likely to fry your receiver if someone transmits on the CB without first disconnecting the receiver. Indeed you are likely to have fun with your 10 metre band receivers if you run boots (a linear amplifier) on your CB set and the antennas are near each other.

I suspect that if you want to be able to get information from amateurs in other continents after an apocalypse you will need a morse operator - and also an SSB rig. Many 10 metre and expanded CB rigs do use SSB. You will get the greatest distances in morse. Hams used to have a thing called the "million miles per watt" club. Always done with morse. That's how effective morse is at punching through background noise.

Subject: RE: Tech: CB / Shortwave Radio?
From: Stu
Date: 03 Jul 12 - 04:22 AM

"a reliable range of only about 4 miles"

I haven't used a CB for nearly 30 years, but we got better range than four miles. When we set up DX'ing channels we could get five times that on a good night on the outskirts of Birmingham, and frequently chatted with people ten miles down the road.

Mind you, the twenty-foot dipole bolted to the side wall helped.

Subject: RE: Tech: CB / Shortwave Radio?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 03 Jul 12 - 04:27 AM

I have a limited Ham licence,and my own UK call sign. I don't use it, as I find I can get all the globe trotting broadcasts I need, via my PC, Tablet, or even smart phone.

Subject: RE: Tech: CB / Shortwave Radio?
From: MarkS
Date: 03 Jul 12 - 09:05 AM

If all you want to do is listen, remember only one word, ANTENNA.
A lousy radio with a great antenna will run rings around an expensive radio with a lousy antenna.
For CB, a simple verticle antenna will allow you to transmit and listen locally just fine, but it will only offer limited benefit for SWL (short wave listening) on other bands.
You might want to buy an inexpensive CB and put up a verticle - they are not usually very costly.
However, for general coverage and short wave, you can find older receivers on ebay, etc, for relatively low cost. But put up a good antenna! Even a long (longer the better) wire will work well.
Also - if you put up any type of outside antenna, be sure to put in a good ground system - and by that I mean a physical connection to earth.
When using an outside antenna, remember, Mr. Lightning is NOT your friend!!!

Happy listning
Mark - who has had a ham radio ticket longer than he has had a drivers license!

Subject: RE: Tech: CB / Shortwave Radio?
From: Rapparee
Date: 03 Jul 12 - 09:36 AM

If you want to do REAL emergency communications, get a ham ticket and learn CW. It'll punch through when vox fails, fails, fails. Of course, you'll need a good antenna.

Or you might try something like this and add a pair of these. Should work for any emergency you're likely to survive.

Subject: RE: Tech: CB / Shortwave Radio?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 03 Jul 12 - 10:33 AM

Sugarfoot Jack - it ain't like that any more (and a vertical dipole was probably illegal then too). The first night I put up my Starduster way back then I got to Wales from North Kent - I was just audible on 4 watts and quite audible when I turned on the Bremi boots. I'm now running a UK/CEPT rig in the wrapper with a clever little loaded collinear on the roof and all there is is huge background noise (up to 7 pounds on some channels, and no it isn't SSB) and the occasional twerp from Grays (Essex) rabbiting on the 19 about the size of his boots. Oh, and a net from Rainham (Kent) that talks, again on the 19, about what it had for tea. That's on the UK bands. Zip, nada, nothing on the CEPT.

Subject: RE: Tech: CB / Shortwave Radio?
From: Stu
Date: 03 Jul 12 - 12:22 PM

The dipole was a tad naughty, but in truth we pretty much all had one (except the odd nutter with a magmount on a biscuit tin and heavy boots). Some chap used to sit up in the Licky Hills and chair the DX circle and everyone was well-behaved, which helped. Some fellows did calim to copy breakers from Wales but I was never convinced; your story makes me wonder if they were out in Worcestershire somewhere.

What's causing the background noise? We had no mobile phones or wireless then but is it really so noisy on air now?

I had a great rig, can't remember the name but was AM/SSB but as my mate only had a two-channel handheld I got rid of it, plus the AM was slightly off the carrier and it needed a KC shift fitted, which would have jiggered the SSB. I replaced it with an Amstrad 901 I got from a shop in Sheldon, and I firmly believe it was the only really decent bit of kit that company made.

Subject: RE: Tech: CB / Shortwave Radio?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 03 Jul 12 - 05:20 PM

I never liked the Amstrads. Back then I had a York JCB 863 which the screwdriver mechanic from over the road (he was "Bikewrecker" in Doodlebug's book of handles and I was "Legal Eagle") had been inside so was probably more like 10 watts than 4 and heavily overmodulated. Later I got a DNT (supertuned) and a Midland I acquired from my Brother in Law and two Cybernet 1000s. Both the DNT and the Midland had nice audio quality. Alas the York was nicked. I also had some little boots in the wrappers, nothing like the big Bremi indoors.

Apart from the Starduster on the house, the best thumpers on the wrappers were a 5 foot distributed load Firestik and a 4 foot top-load Hotrod, and running close behind a Modulator MDX and a KT40 that I had modified. For a while I also had an original Moonraker but some bastard stole that too. Oh, and a Halfbreed. I also had a load of short things for use in the woods on my offroader and a very odd US made 3 foot wirewound that I found in a junk shop and had a lot of fun swring (it being designed for the US frequencies) but it got out not as well as the big wirewounds but better than the whips.

The point about skip is that radiation that goes out too straight up goes out through the magnetic layers. It's the same phenomenon (in reverse) as total internal reflection in optics. That's why there is a minimum skip distance. So not only for groundwave but also for skywave you want a low propagation angle and that's why a 5/8 wave goes further than a half-wave goes further than a 1/4 wave - and a true collinear goes further.

Subject: RE: Tech: CB / Shortwave Radio?
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 03 Jul 12 - 09:01 PM

For the original statement of objectives:

1) Pick up local weather 24/7, over the weather channels.

In the US at least, you can get a "weather radio" for about $10 (US) from Radio shack that will only receive the weather service broadcasts, or you can "spread the coil" on a 50 cent AM radio found at a yard sale to shift the frequency up to the higher band where weather services broadcast. For very little more, dedicated weather alert radios will sound an alarm when a "watch" or "warning" is announced by one of the weather services, and some services have begun "tailoring" the warnings so that they're fairly specific to your location, if you have one of the more recent receivers. (In the US, you can probably visit the website of the local TV station that has the best local weather reports to find where/how to get a decent "weather radio" - sometimes called an "emergency warning radio" by a few.)

2) Tune in to shortwave broadcasts from around the world. The bigger news-oriented stations.

If you just want to listen to station broadcasts, a decent "multi-band" receiver should suffice. Stations of much interest (easily received in the US, at least) seldom broadcast SSB, but AM and FM will both be useful. A few such receivers include a BFO that might be useful in some places, but I've never found anyone transmitting anything to use it for in my (several) parts of the US.

If you want to "talk to" others, in the US the "American Radio Relay League" (just search "ARRL") should, with little additional effort, find contacts in your area who will probably be happy to convert you to their addiction. It can be about as simple as you want, or as complicated as you can stand.

3) Communicate via CB radio in the event of emergencies.

There are no "official agencies" using CB or even (officially) listening on CB in the US, so the only ones who might be there to communicate with you in an emergency are probably going to be other "curious citizens." On the road CB can sometimes get a response to "Help - where's the nearest fuel station" but it depends on who feels friendly enough to answer you. The most common CB units are meant for vehicle installation, and REQUIRE an antenna, but the transceivers start at around $50 and an antenna at about $40 is about as good as will be useful. A "tuned quarter wave" stick is about all you need on a vehicle, and will be about 4 ft long. "Base Station" units are available for home use ($130? and up), and a "real antenna" might help with one, but legal range is still limited and usefulness depends on how many users happen to be listening.

Situations outside the US, of course, may be different.

John

Subject: RE: Tech: CB / Shortwave Radio?
From: Songwronger
Date: 03 Jul 12 - 11:26 PM

Great information, folks. Thanks.

I suspected I wouldn't be able to combine antennas for the CB and shortwave, but I wanted to make sure.

I want to stay away from the fuss of licensing, so that's the reason for CB and not HAM radio or some other. From what I've read, the EMS (emergency response systems) still monitor CB channel 9, which is reserved for emergency broadcasts. Police cars tune to it, etc. So it still has some function in that regard. And the area in which we'd be using the CB is thick with the radios, so that's the story on that. In an emergency we should be able to get through to someone.

What we're trying to prepare for is a takedown of the internet, cell phones, twitter--all the newer technology. We want to be able to maintain some kind of electromagnetic contact with the outside world if that happens. Radio and its free airwaves should fill that need.

So I guess I'm looking at a CB with an antenna, and a shortwave with the ability to hook up an external antenna (to pull in broadcasts from a greater distance). Two radios and two antennas.

That leaves weather radio. I've seen some CBs that advertise "weather too." Those seem to have 7 additional channels that automatically keep you tuned to the local weather broadcasts as you move down the road. Something like that. I've only seen that feature on mobile units, not base units. So I'm thinking of getting a mobile unit and an adapter to power it from a wall socket. Hook up an antenna and it'll be ready to go.

Since I wouldn't know how to fix even the simplest problem on a radio, I guess that means new equipment. It should be working out of the box, and it should have a warranty. Any recommendations on a decent CB (either a mobile unit with weather or a base unit with weather)? Any suggestions on name brands? It seems everything's made in China now, but I'd like to avoid that stuff. I've seen the names Uniden, Galaxy, Bearcat and some others, but I don't know. Seems you can read ten glowing reports that are real generalized and then one that rips the unit in detail, so I never know what to think after reading a review of a radio.

Over. (Practicing the lingo)

Subject: RE: Tech: CB / Shortwave Radio?
From: Stu
Date: 04 Jul 12 - 06:24 AM

Crikey, how it all comes back. I had a Midland AM rig, and it was superb. The Amstrad was an excellent rig but the handset was godawful and the controls a bit prissy; however it performed well and was legal.

My mate had a Firestick on a biscuit tin and that worked very well. I never use boots as I think I might have wiped Midlands Today off ours and the neighbours TV sets, and we did like our fix of Tom Coyne.

Subject: RE: Tech: CB / Shortwave Radio?
From: Stu
Date: 04 Jul 12 - 06:24 AM

Handle = The Ghost.

Subject: RE: Tech: CB / Shortwave Radio?
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 04 Jul 12 - 10:39 AM

From what I've read, the EMS (emergency response systems) still monitor CB channel 9, which is reserved for emergency broadcasts.

My most recent experience is that in the US nobody monitors Ch 9. At least I've never heard a reply from any "official" responders.

Many, if not all, recent CB transceivers have an automatic "break in" that flips the receiver to CH 9 if anyone broadcasts there, and there's a pretty good chance that someone might answer who has a working cell phone and can call an emergency number, if they agree with you that it's an emergency. It is still useful, but not in the manner that many people believe.

Note that in municipal areas "911" is the universal emergency police phone number, although not all cities/towns have 911 service. On many highways, especially the interstate ones, signs are posted with a different number to call for assistance on that highway. A couple of the highway response phone numbers are fairly standard, but there are lots of variants.

In a major emergency (natural catastrophe), it might be more likely that some agency will monitor CB, but the range at which CB can be received (<15 miles at best) is much to short to be useful out on the road. It's much more likely that an individual - hopefully with a working phone or another kind of radio - will be the one who answers on Ch 9.

Individual "cops" may sometimes monitor the channels with significant traffic, since it gives them clues to where the misbehavior is; but the cops have to buy their own CBs (in any place I've heard of) in order to do that, and it's "officially denigrated behavior" in most law enforcement agencies.

John

Subject: RE: Tech: CB / Shortwave Radio?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 05 Jul 12 - 10:44 AM

"So I'm thinking of getting a mobile unit and an adapter to power it from a wall socket. "


The advantage to this is that you can use a 12V battery as an emergency power source, it the AC power is out. Any car would then be able to recharge your battery, as long as you have access to gasoline.

Many short wave receivers and amateur radio transceivers also have 12V power inputs, to allow mobile or base operation The base power supply is a 12V source [Heathkit SB-104 is 20 Amps!], but it is trivial to use a car battery, and have a trickle charger on the battery to keep it charged [when the AC power is on].

Subject: RE: Tech: CB / Shortwave Radio?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 05 Jul 12 - 11:38 AM

I keep looking at this rig, but then reality breaks in when I realise I can't afford it :(

Subject: RE: Tech: CB / Shortwave Radio?
From: Songwronger
Date: 05 Jul 12 - 10:48 PM

Man this is confusing to someone with no radio experience. I've been studying specs and models, trying to get a handle, but I don't know.

The weather radio will have to be an independent unit I guess. We have an old one with no way to hook up an external antenna, but maybe it'll serve as is. Dinky little thing. Need to dig it out. I think it has both battery and plug-in capability. Used to work fine in the city. Need to try it in the sticks.

Good idea on getting both a cb and a shortwave that can be 12v adapted. Planned to do that with the cb but not the shortwave.

I think we'll start with the cb. I've looked at so many models over the net. Biggest drawback to all of them is that they're Chinese made. The old ones aren't, but I wouldn't know what I'm buying on eBay or someplace else. And I have no basis of comparison, so I wouldn't know if something isn't performing properly. A new unit will be the way to go.

The one that gets pretty consistent praise is the Galaxy DX-959. More than I planned to spend, but it seems to have all the features we'd need for the forseeable future. There's a pdf of the manual at the top of that page, just below the image of the radio. Lots of specs.

A cbradiomagazine review of the radio is Here.

Not sure what kind of antenna to get. There's a 5-foot Firestick with a tunable tip, whatever that means. Try that short one and go to something longer if needed.

Not sure what the "grounding plane" talk refers to regarding antennas, but I could mount an antenna on the side of a huge metal carport. Like an eighth-acre of steel, if that would be beneficial.

Subject: RE: Tech: CB / Shortwave Radio?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 06 Jul 12 - 02:17 AM

Firestiks are intended for mobile use but you could bolt one onto the top (not side) of huge metal carport.

If you want good-ish distance and 100mph wind resistance put a Starduster on a 30 foot VERY WELL GUYED mast.

That Galaxy looks very tasty and seems a very reasonable price.

Subject: RE: Tech: CB / Shortwave Radio?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 06 Jul 12 - 04:54 AM

My favourite Mobile CB in days gone by, was my Superstar. It shared internals with the Cobra. Using a half wave antenna at home. I used to talk to Italy, Brazil, and the US east coast. In the truck I still managed to chat to and from Italy, with a centre loaded mobile antenna.
Good CB propagation is ruled by sun cycles, and when activity is low, so is chat. It runs on an 11 year cycle if I remember rightly. So not too long to wait ;)

Subject: RE: Tech: CB / Shortwave Radio?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 06 Jul 12 - 08:00 AM

Yep, the old Superstar 360 was nice. Skip is a bloody nuisance if you want nice clear local communication however! Was that the big old centre loaded Modulator from Les Wallen?

Subject: RE: Tech: CB / Shortwave Radio?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 06 Jul 12 - 02:39 PM

Can't remember the make, it had a centre section about 10" long, and about 1" thick. It's still around some where, as is my old Oscar.

Subject: RE: Tech: CB / Shortwave Radio?
From: Songwronger
Date: 12 Jul 12 - 06:47 PM

Think I found a nice antenna:

http://www.bellscb.com/products/antennas/solarcon/solarcon_A99_antenna.htm

A Solarcon A-99. 18 feet in 3 six-foot sections. Omnidirectional. Shppg wt 6 pounds. So, this thing is made to minimize wind resistance. Wouldn't need guy wires. That's an issue because of livestock tripping over them and people decapitating themselves. I could mount a mast on the side of the metal carport canopy (secure it to one of the ribs up high, where it bends), then this thing would extend another 18 feet.

These people make a 24-footer too. For the longer wavelengths.

Subject: RE: Tech: CB / Shortwave Radio?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 12 Jul 12 - 07:10 PM

Yes that looks tasty. I like the collinear aspect, it should lower your effective angle of radiation.

The mast yo uput it on will need to be very tough and stable (and therefore guyed) - that long it will have a lot of windage whatever teh blurb says.

Unless the mast is at least 6 feet above your metal carport roof before the antenna starts you will have a murderous swr and directionality problem. I recommend trying bolting a 9 foot whip through the middle of your carport roof as a starter. If it works, brace the roof very well and then try a 5/8 wave or a collinear in stead - also through the middle of the roof.

DO get the ham aerial handbook as recommended above.

Subject: RE: Tech: CB / Shortwave Radio?
From: Songwronger
Date: 12 Jul 12 - 07:25 PM

Thanks.

Problem with the antenna is getting it away from traveled areas. Side of the carport is the one place I could use as things are now. I suspected the proximity of the metal might be an issue. The carport catches wind and sways, too.

I could sink a mast anywhere needed, really. A solid mast, too, anchored in concrete, steel drilling pipe. I could make it very, very solid.

For the 18-foot antenna, some of the comments I've read about this one really rave. Say they've used it 10 years no guys, etc.

Really have to avoid guys because of animals and other traffic, and I don't have a solid building to clamp a mast to.

Subject: RE: Tech: CB / Shortwave Radio?
From: Songwronger
Date: 13 Jul 12 - 09:44 PM

Looked back and couldn't see mention of a specific book. Is this the one? The ARRL handbook?

http://www.amazon.com/ARRL-Handbook-Radio-Communications-Comprehensive/dp/087259095X/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1342218718&sr=8-2&ke

I'll get hold of a copy and study what there is about antennas.

An interesting story I just ran across--the reason I want alternative means of communication. The white house and our new Department of Bullshit Homeland Security have just created a communications kill switch:

When President Obama inked his name to the Assignment of National Security and Emergency Preparedness Communications Functions Executive Order on July 6, he authorized the US Department of Homeland Security to take control of the country's wired and wireless communications — including the Internet — in instances of emergency....

Immediately after last week's signing, the Electronic Privacy Information Center (EPIC) said the order allowed the DHS "the authority to seize private facilities when necessary, effectively shutting down or limiting civilian communications."

Following up with the Post this week, EPIC attorney Amie Stephanovich stands by that initial explanation, agreeing that the DHS can now "seize control of telecommunications facilities, including telephone, cellular and wireless networks, in order to prioritize government communications over private ones in an emergency."

And so on.

http://rt.com/usa/news/white-house-systems-order-142/

Anyway, is the ARRL handbook recommended?

Subject: RE: Tech: CB / Shortwave Radio?
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 14 Jul 12 - 01:09 AM

The ARRL has published a number of different books with information that may be useful. Two issues of the "Handbook" about 15-18 years apart didn't seem to have a lot of change, although the later one did include some information about "new trends." For an introduction to "radio" in general, with enough more advanced information to keep you busy until you're ready to invent your own stuff, the ARRL Handbook is hard to beat.

A separate ARRL book that I found interesting, and useful beyond amateur radio was, IIRC, the "ARRL Antenna Handbook." It's a much smaller book than the "big one" but has a lot of detail on different antenna designs and help with estimating directionalities and coverages. (When TV went digital, I used the Antenna Handbook to improve on the YouTube brag on "how to" and got by with a couple of coathangers screwed onto a wooden yardstick for a while. Reception with the commercial "amplified antenna" that I bought later isn't any better, but "she" says it isn't quite as ugly.)

Back when I bought those three books, there were book stores that sometimes would have one in stock. And/or you sometimes could find one at Shit Shack Radio Shack, but the Radio Shacks in my area now don't seem to handle much of anything except "smart phones." (I only know of one, about 60 miles away, where you can still buy a banana jack.)

John

Subject: RE: Tech: CB / Shortwave Radio?
From: GUEST,poppa bear from shakey town
Date: 15 Jul 12 - 04:18 AM

try www.globaltuners.com for a month ... you will learn what you like.

Subject: RE: Tech: CB / Shortwave Radio?
From: Songwronger
Date: 15 Jul 12 - 06:51 PM

Ordered a used copy of the ARRL Antenna Handbook last night. Should answer a lot of questions.

Need to look at my tools now. Found out today that my multimeter has died. Last used it about 6 months ago to put in some wall plugs. But it's a goner. Need a new meter, and I gu4ess I should consider possible radio needs when looking at a new one. Any advice there?

Need to look for videos on coaxial work this week. Never dealt with the stuff. That'll be another list of tools, I'm sure.

Subject: RE: Tech: CB / Shortwave Radio?
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 15 Jul 12 - 07:18 PM

Coaxial is easy to work with, but get the line rated for UV for outside. A quick look at Home Depot's site says the RG59 (which is more expensive, probably because of the copper) is for use with "audio and video, radio frequency and CCTV transmissions. And the fewer breaks in the line (via connectors ) between your antenna and the radio, the better. I've done a lot of work with coaxial in the house, but it is all indoors, no weather or sunlight to worry about. You need the heavy stuff the cable companies use from the pole to the house.

SRS

Subject: RE: Tech: CB / Shortwave Radio?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 16 Jul 12 - 03:03 AM

Modern digital multimeters can be got for under £10 over here in the UK. Not a crisis.

Subject: RE: Tech: CB / Shortwave Radio?
From: Songwronger
Date: 26 Jul 12 - 09:38 PM

All right. Got my ARRL Antenna book a while back, been studying. A bit technical for me. But it will be a good reference in the future, I'm sure. Picked up some info from it though.

Looking back, I don't think I was clear on my dual use question--about the same antenna serving both a CB and shortwave. The radios wouldn't be powered up at the same time, so there wouldn't be any danger of conflicting signals. Wouldn't a simple A/B switch box work? I could just switch the antenna to whichever radio I have on at the time, disconnect the coax from the A/B box to protect from lightning when the radios are off.

Subject: RE: Tech: CB / Shortwave Radio?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 27 Jul 12 - 04:32 AM

As far as I remember VSWR affects receiving as well as transmitting.

Subject: RE: Tech: CB / Shortwave Radio?
From: Songwronger
Date: 17 Sep 12 - 07:18 PM

Been dragging my feet on this. Hit a couple of unknowns, the biggest of which is whether CB radio would be worth setting up. A home base. Is there enough air traffic to justify it, or would I just get dead air? Things have changed with cell phones, twitter, the internet and so on.

But today I finally met with a man selling some portable CBs. Bought 3 for $40. Made in the late 70's but in new condition, still in the boxes. Large handheld radios, with adapters that plug into the power adapter (or no, it says "cigarette lighter" on the box), a short antenna that can screw into the handheld unit or into the magnetic base that sticks to the top of your vehicle. Manuals, extra fuses, etc. The boxes had $49 price tags on them, from the seventies (1978 on the paperwork inside).

I bought all 3 and tested one earlier. Lots of dim voices, a few strong ones coming and going. Half or more of the talk in Spanish.

So there's chatter on the CB band. Enough to warrant pushing ahead with a larger investment.

These radios are well made. All of them made in Korea. 2 of them are Kraco, and one is some other brand. Heavy, no digital/LED stuff, just rotating knobs, big push button key, speakers like a phone.

Whatever we do now with radios, we have these 3 to plug into a vehicle and catch a bit of news.

Subject: RE: Tech: CB / Shortwave Radio?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 17 Sep 12 - 08:03 PM

Range is going to be very short.

Subject: RE: Tech: CB / Shortwave Radio?
From: EBarnacle
Date: 17 Sep 12 - 09:03 PM

One of the reasons for different antennas is wavelength. Also, the bigger the antenna the better signial you can recieve and send. You can look for an anntena tunner which will allow you to use 1 anntena for dif bands. check the specs on the tunner to see what it will work with.
On the ARRl site there is a chart of the dif bands/frequencys/allowed transmisions/type of trannsmissions. The anntena book is great. Some of the anntenas are omi directional, some are very directional. See the annenta book for various propigation patterens for differant anntenas.
Radio bands are affected by diferent things. Line of sight, bouncing, sun spots, night and day cycles.
As far as I know you don't need a license to listen, just to transmit.

Lady Hillary(KC2HLA) on EBarnacls' account

Subject: RE: Tech: CB / Shortwave Radio?
From: MarkS
Date: 17 Sep 12 - 10:33 PM

Better get RG 58U instead of RG 59U. 58 is a 52 ohm cable where 59 - if I remember correctly is 75 ohm.
Just to listen it should not make much difference, but if you plan on using coax as a transmission line from your radio to the antenna, you will probably find your radio has a spec to match to 52 ohm cable.
A mismatch will lead to a very high SWR (standing wave ratio) and a dramatic decrease in the RF power delivered to the antenna, although at low CB power the chances of frying your radio should be minimal. Do not try to amplify power output if you have a mismatch from your radio to the transmission line.
Read through the Amateur Radio Handbook in the chapters on transmission lines for a more detailed explanation,

Oh, and you can get an amateur license without need for morse code knowledge these days (much to my dislike, but that is another thread.)

Find some 144 MHZ gear ( 2 meter band) for a start. Most of the 2 meter radios have WX capability ( that is weather info to non- hams) and many of them also have very high frequency and ultra high frequency capability as well, so you can evesedrop on the drive thru at the Golden Arch Room as well as other nifty things.

But = For SWL (short wave listning) on the lower bands I do not think the receiver portion of most 2 meter rigs will work. You still should get a General Coverage rcvr (probably will not have 2 meter capability though) and run it from an independent antenna.

Look up Amateur Radio clubs in your area. They will be most welcoming and probably also run classes for rookies looking for their first license! Trust me - they will be glad to see you!

All the best

Mark

Subject: RE: Tech: CB / Shortwave Radio?
From: GUEST
Date: 17 Sep 12 - 11:43 PM

Most interesting handle Poppa Bear etc ... it is 100 percent my deceased brother's...from 45 years ago.

I agree ... global tuners dot com is THE place to start. You can experience the actual tuning with various classic rigs.

Also... freq of nature dot com EXCELLENT when combined with above.

Also.... radio reference dot com ... presets world wide.

Sincerely,
Gargoyle

Global Tuners lost their California connections ( you will note several regiztered but not activated) when it gurgled out....that use of radio frequency (even monitoring) in the commission of a crime in the state of California...added a whopping extra penalty...even if the owner of the rig was unaware of its immediate use. It is one "toy " that is best not shared in California.