BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun

Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun....
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 23 Jul 12 - 05:59 PM

""In recent history, many acts of spectacular gun violence have been linked not so much by the presence of assault rifles but rather by large gun magazines that allow shooters to fire longer without reloading.""

Anders Breivik managed to shoot 69 people with normal weapons which had to be regularly re-loaded.

So it seems to me that he hardly needed large magazines.

What would have prevented many of those deaths is the unavailability of the weapons and/or ammunition.

Large magazines are simply a bonus for the mass murderer. Given that he can apparently, in the US at least, buy as many guns as he can carry, or in fact more, if he so chooses.

""I also find it interesting that many in the UK can't comprehend why we HAVE so many guns and such a permissive attitude about them.""

Let's face it Bill, we in the UK only have to compare our nationalgun casualties with each of at least a dozen US cities, and we are astounded that you people cannot see what guns are doing to you and your children.

We are even more astounded at the way in which a whole civilised nation has been brainwashed into acquiescence to a hard core of gun nuts, who only want the money they earn by supplying the means to kill your countrymen, and don't give a tuppenny damn about how many of you end up dead.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun....
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 23 Jul 12 - 06:28 PM

I know you mean well Don, but its quite obvious a lot of generally quite sensible people can't see our point of view, its like Northern Ireland, or muslim people thinking they'll go to heaven if they wash their feet five times a day - they believe different basic stuff to us.

What i think should happen in the wake of this awful tragedy - the Friends of the Gun and the Enemies of the Gun should sit down together and , and think hard about what they Both agree could be done to lessen the danger - however small that area of agreement is - and they should do it. Very effectively. And that would be a start.

Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun....
From: Bobert
Date: 23 Jul 12 - 06:30 PM

BTW, I just the photos of James Holmes in court today and I'm sticking with my diagnosis: wacko, 1st class...

More than likely schizophrenic and very possibly paranoid schizophrenic...

They'll get him on meds for the trail and he'll seem less wacko-ed out but he'll just be a wacko on meds...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun....
From: Greg F.
Date: 23 Jul 12 - 06:36 PM

A gun is just a pipe and a striker.

Righto, Q - and how many people do you think he would have killed if armed with a pipe and a striker type zip gun??

Jesus wept, man - have some sense.

Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun....
From: GUEST,olddude
Date: 23 Jul 12 - 06:54 PM

That is the problem Don, if the politicians will not address it, there isn't enough cops to address it, so what does the honest citizen do. Watch their kids get killed. some arm themselves

everyone from sportsmen to cops screaming about the gun laws. We have 20,000 on the books and all of them negated by the gun show law or private transfer law ...

Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun....
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 23 Jul 12 - 07:09 PM

Looking at that 2nd Amendment the thing that sticks out for me is that it does not in fact talk about "the right of people to bear arms" as something that shall not be abrided. It talks about "the right of the people".

The difference which that definite article makes is that it fairly clearly indicates that it is talking in collective rather than individual terms, tying in with the reference to "a properly regulated militia".

But of course the actual intended meaning of the amendment back in the 18th century is irrelevant. What determines these things is the politics and social culture of early 21st century America - and it seems pretty clear that, so far as this issue goes, this is pretty irrevocably set in a pattern that to most people outside the country is not actually sane.

It's sad but that's how it is. It's not really something where outsiders have a relevant say. Rather like slavery back in the 19th century, and subsequent institutionalised racism, it's something Americans will have to sort out for themselves.

Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun....
From: Bobert
Date: 23 Jul 12 - 07:22 PM

There was a study that came out about 15 years ago that showed that more people who own guns are killed by guns than folks that don't own guns... That study got some air time for a day or two until the NRA squashed it... The NRA is more powerful than any lobby in America and more powerful than any politician, the president included...

I mean, my hat is off to them... They have become the ultimate veto-er... I mean, I bet God is afraid of them...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun....
From: GUEST,Lighter
Date: 23 Jul 12 - 07:28 PM

Again, I'm no lawyer, but "the people" is an abstraction. "The people" can't literally bear arms, only individual people can bear arms.

And which *individual* people are to be prohibited from doing so? Those not enrolled in a "well-organized militia"?

That's one interpretation, but it's no different from the "restrictive" interpretation I posted yesterday.

Which brings us right back to where we started.

Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun....
From: Bill D
Date: 23 Jul 12 - 07:57 PM

Watching the various news programs...I see people making the same point *I* have said for years: Our 'founding fathers' would have been appalled at the types of weapons we have today, and would NEVER have written a 2nd amendment that condones plain citizens having them at home under the bed. They had MUSKETS!

The framers of the Constitution wanted a system to serve the country in times of need... a militia/military! Not a bunch of trigger-happy fools obsessed with being macho!

That 2nd amendment needs to be totally revised to reflect reality.

Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun....
From: Bobert
Date: 23 Jul 12 - 08:00 PM

Yeah, Lighter, wish the authors of the Bill of Rights had spent a little more time on the 2nd amendment... Had they seen the future, they most certainly would have... This amendment has turned out to be the boobie-trap of all time...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun....
From: GUEST,Lighter
Date: 23 Jul 12 - 08:50 PM

It's true: the framers of the Constitution had no idea of what 20th & 21st century firearms would be like.

If they had, they might have worded it better.

On the other hand, they were big believers in the rationality of man.

So there's no telling what they'd have done, even if they'd lived through the past 200+ years.

Odds are they'd be as divided as we are.

Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun....
From: olddude
Date: 23 Jul 12 - 10:57 PM

Hell ya Bobster, more people are killed with them that own them. why because 99.9% shouldn't be allowed near them .. like some drivers I know. But ya see we have no laws that work and no politicians have the balls to say this is all insane so .. our kids get shot while going to a movie ...

Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun....
From: GUEST,olddude
Date: 23 Jul 12 - 11:54 PM

Jefferson on gun control

T jefferson"Laws that forbid the carrying of arms ... disarm only those who are neither inclined nor determined to commit crimes... Such laws make things worse for the assaulted and better for the assailants; they serve rather to encourage than to prevent homicides, for an unarmed man may be attacked with greater confidence than an armed man." -- Cesare Beccaria, On Crimes and Punishment, quoted by Thomas Jefferson in Commonplace Book

Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun....
From: GUEST,olddude
Date: 24 Jul 12 - 12:31 AM

I saw the bastard on TV today, to me, he is playing a game and enjoyed his 15 minutes of fame. His lawyer you bet said the only thing you got going now is play the insane act. I will hold judgement and wait till the headshrinkers come back with an opinion.

concealed carry license are ready next week already pre-approved by the proper authorities and mine is approved for that state also. Yea I do have pull so what!.

Two mass murders 15 miles apart in what .. 15 years or so ... they are living in a looney bin.

Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun....
From: GUEST
Date: 24 Jul 12 - 12:33 AM

YOU ARE A SICK COUNTRY

Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun....
From: Stu
Date: 24 Jul 12 - 04:06 AM

" I will bet there are many, many folks in the UK who you would not want having guns! Idiots are not restricted to the U.S.!"

No argument with that, and it's why we're happy not to have the country awash with guns.

Good post BillD.

Also, making this kid out to be some sort of lunatic is dangerous' it might be a comfort to you think that but there's not a shred of evidence so far. The fact is, normal people can have a bad day, feel constantly put upon and if you've got a gun it's a damn sight easier to go out and slaughter innocents than it is if you've got a knife. Especially if you can buy them over the counter, like a bag of twinkies. This kid may not be a nutter. He may be normal, and snapped.

Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun....
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 24 Jul 12 - 04:33 AM

There seems to some of us over here to be a sort of resigned attitude among many of you over there, that guns are a sort of law of nature - like the weather and the seasons; which we all have to learn to live with, even if every now & then they get out of hand and produce tornadoes and tsunamis and shoot-em-ups. [I know we have copycattedly had some of the latter ~ Dunblane, Hungerford: but ours are at least product of outright disobedience to our basic laws, while yours result from misuse of the rights conferred by your laws: an important distinction, I should say.]

They aren't really any sort of natural law, you know. With the will & the organisation you could bring them under control. But is the will there among enough of you? The evidence appears to be that it is not.

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun....
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 24 Jul 12 - 05:09 AM

Guest, 22 July 11.06.

Your statistics are wrong. The group you wish to vilify comprises 12.8 % of US population.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_the_United_States

Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun....
From: Bobert
Date: 24 Jul 12 - 07:17 AM

McG...

Yes, we are resigned to seeing the NRA'ers win forever... It's interesting that when the American people are asked questions by pollsters about various changes to the laws we find very high numbers for those changes but when it is boiled down to the single phrase "gun control" the numbers drop to around 50/50...

Like I have said, we'll get around to making these changes when a "cell" of wacko Islamics "legally" purchase a truck load of assault rifles, take over a rich (mostly Republican) town, shoot up a boat load of rich Republicans and hold the town hostage...

When that happens then the NRA will lose its stranglehold on our country...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun....
From: Jack Campin
Date: 24 Jul 12 - 07:29 AM

What has the local and wider response to these killings been?

Is olddude a lone nutcase or part of a trend towards murderous insanity?

Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun....
From: olddude
Date: 24 Jul 12 - 09:00 AM

Yea Jack I am a total nutcase, I embrace my nutcase ... I run it up a flag pole and salute it.

Wish you all the best always

Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun....
From: Greg F.
Date: 24 Jul 12 - 09:17 AM

Click Here

Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun....
From: Bobert
Date: 24 Jul 12 - 09:19 AM

Actually, Jack, Ol'ster is for gun control... If I have it correct, he would close the gun-show loophole and he would require, at the very least, folks owning handguns to have to have them registered...

Those two changes would make a world of difference...

I would go a lot further but ya' gotta give credit where credit is due...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun....
From: Jack Campin
Date: 24 Jul 12 - 09:28 AM

I'd guess that most people, in the US as here, would be more worried about sharing a cinema with dozens of trigger-happy armed vigilantes high on collective panic than they would be by the prospect of a visit from a mass murderer.

Is that starting to happen, in Denver or elsewhere?

Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun....
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 24 Jul 12 - 09:33 AM

I embrace my nutcase ... I run it up a flag pole and salute it.

That says it all really.

Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun....
From: SINSULL
Date: 24 Jul 12 - 10:18 AM

An arrest here in Maine and the discovery of a house and car full of weapons. The gentleman claims he was at the Batman premier in Portland with a gun but didn't use it.
sigh.

Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun....
From: GUEST,Stim
Date: 24 Jul 12 - 10:43 AM

I was GUEST 11:06, Jack, and I wasn't wrong, I was using one or two more qualifiers in the search tool(I forget which number I finally posted)--one of them was "male" and the other was "under age 30".

Using geographic qualifiers(which the website doesn't provide), it is possible to "pinpoint" the areas where these crimes occur (for some reason, it took law enforcement statisticians years to figure to do that). In one particular year, about 20% of the school related homicides in the US were connected with one particular school.

Anyone that knows America will not be surprised to know that when efforts were made to look into this situation, there were angry protests from parents, students, and teachers from the school, who felt that their school was being unfairly singled out for criticism.


And so it goes...

Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun....
From: saulgoldie
Date: 24 Jul 12 - 10:50 AM

Whatever the laws and interpretation of the second ammendment, it remains infallibly true that if there is no gun present, then no one will be hurt by guns. Incontrivertable, a tautology.

Saul

Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun....
From: katlaughing
Date: 24 Jul 12 - 11:19 AM

McGrath...could be UKers don't hold the monopoly on irony re' olddude's quote you used.

It's so nice, as an American, to read of the absolute certainty some of you across the pond have posted about us and how we feel and think. Truly enlightening. (FYI - that's sarcasm.)

If any are interested, there is an interesting interview HERE

Columbine Survivor On Dealing With Trauma
by Ryan Warner

Produced by Zachary Barr

Unless you were in that Aurora movie theater when the bullets started flying, you can't really know what it was like. Yet trauma of this magnitude and, hopefully, healing from it, are experiences others have had, including survivors of the Columbine shooting in 1999. We're going to talk with one of them now. Craig Scott was in the school's library, the scene of the most carnage. His sister Rachel, who was outside, was the first to be killed. Scott speaks with Colorado Matters host Ryan Warner.

Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun....
From: GUEST,Paul
Date: 24 Jul 12 - 11:48 AM

For what it's worth, katlaughing, we are not, never have been, and never will be 'UKers'

Referring to us such just increases our contempt.

Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun....
From: Stu
Date: 24 Jul 12 - 12:11 PM

"It's so nice, as an American, to read of the absolute certainty some of you across the pond have posted about us and how we feel and think. Truly enlightening.

Some of us genuinely give a shit. I've good friends in the US and it's a tragedy to see this madness continue. Like watching a best mate self-destruct in front of your very eyes. Perhaps it is worth taking in good faith at least some of the concerns of people who know what's it like to live without guns everywhere.

Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun....
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 24 Jul 12 - 12:28 PM

Exaggeration for effect isn't the same as irony. A fervent belief that gun worship is at the heart of patriotism is pretty evidently one that a significant section of Americans hold. olddude may not actually hold it - but he summed it up pretty well.

Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun....
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 24 Jul 12 - 01:02 PM

Kat can call me a UKer if she likes - quite a useful usage, sometimes expressed on threads IIRC as Yookers: as distinct from Yoosers, which some of us conversely call u-guize. Can't see any occasion for Paul to be so touchy about it.

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun....
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 24 Jul 12 - 01:48 PM

Maybe better than being called a "Brit". Roll on the day when neither term will be relevant...

Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun....
From: GUEST,olddude
Date: 24 Jul 12 - 02:07 PM

Ya know what Jack, the feeling is mutual. So insult away because I consider it a compliment coming from you ..

ya bobster you are the only one getting what I said, close the gun shows, do not allow private transfers without full background checks and 90% of the problem goes away. No one will do that however because of votes .. police scream it, sportsmen scream it and to no avail.

Now what you folks wish to do when you go out to a theater or dinner or shopping mall, I could care less. You handle it as you see fit. Me I do the same

Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun....
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 24 Jul 12 - 02:13 PM

olddude, you are not alone.
I believe the young should be taught how to handle and use a gun safely, since there is no way that the 200,000,000 guns in the U. S. will ever be eliminated. Knowledge is an important step in defense.

Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun....
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 24 Jul 12 - 02:22 PM

To move for a moment to the perpetrator... I understand that the State of Colorado does in fact have Capital Punishment, but that only one person has been executed since 1977 (I may not have this quite correct). If the gunman is found to be mentally ill, what would be done with him? And what would be the attitude of Americans in that case? And would everyone demand that he suffer the Death Penalty if he is NOT in fact insane? Here in UK of course we no longer execute, and the criminally insane are put in secure mental hospitals (not a prison). I'd be interested to hear your views, USA-ers!

Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun....
From: GUEST,olddude
Date: 24 Jul 12 - 02:23 PM

absolutely correct Q
We teach our kids what they need in life, we give them the best education, teach them love and compassion, teach them to work hard and to love God ...

and, we teach them that there is evil people in this world also and you need the skills to protect not only yourself but others also.

That is what I always did and now still do

Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun....
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 24 Jul 12 - 03:13 PM

olddude's suggested reforms sound basic commonsense, with which only some kind of nut could disagree. So how can it be that "No one will do that however because of votes... police scream it, sportsmen scream it and to no avail"? Are the nuts really in a majority in the USA, so that it's only their votes that matter?

Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun....
From: Bettynh
Date: 24 Jul 12 - 03:14 PM

Eliza, two cases come to mind when I think of this.

John Hinkley shot President Reagan and several others to impress Jodi Foster, the actress. He has spent time in a psychiatric institution, and now gets to visit his parents every month unaccompanied (but with a GPS ankle bracelet).

Mark David Chapman killed John Lennon. He planned carefully although his reasons seem insane. He is in isolation in a prison. Yoko Ono has responded to each of his parole hearings by opposing his release. He is in isolation primarily for his own safety.

The police seem to be carefully documenting this guy's planning, so I'd guess they're trying hard to argue that he wasn't insane enough to just be institutionalized. Cases involving the death penalty are horrendously expensive and would give this person a huge platform to act out on. My guess is they'll go the same route as with Chapman, offering him life in prison for passing on the death penalty.

Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun....
From: Jack Campin
Date: 24 Jul 12 - 03:39 PM

I believe the young should be taught how to handle and use a gun safely, since there is no way that the 200,000,000 guns in the U. S. will ever be eliminated. Knowledge is an important step in defense.

It's a totally UNimportant step. Next to useless.

I know how to make bombs - the sort of IEDs used in Afghanistan. Made quite a few of them when I was a student, from basic chemicals. Mainly just for the hell of it and to produce a louder bang than any firecracker I could buy; perhaps about the same explosive power as the thing the CIA used to assassinate Walter Rodney. They worked 100% reliably and would easily scale up to something that would take out a building. (I later read the US Army Improvised Munitions Handbook and realized that I'd done quite a lot of it practically already).

Now tell me how knowing any of that makes me one bit safer against somebody planting a pipebomb. (Somebody did, within lethal range of me, once - it got defused before I ever knew it existed).


Now what you folks wish to do when you go out to a theater or dinner or shopping mall, I could care less.

Most folks are going to go out a lot less if their home town is undergoing a zombie apocalypse with everybody carrying weapons because they're scared shitless of everybody else. The big winners from US gun paranoia are pizza delivery firms and Netflix.

Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun....
From: Bill D
Date: 24 Jul 12 - 03:51 PM

So... you think trying to limit gun shows is the ways to go? Do you have ANY idea what you are up against?

Last night on CurrentTV (the admittedly liberal channel partially owned by Al Gore) Jennifer Granholm showed the links:
this guy, George-Kollitides, who used to run Cerberus Capital Management, and is now head of New York State Rifle & Pistol Association, is now head of The Freedom Group, who are buying up weapons companies...(read it ALL).
In the meantime, guys like Bob Brown of Soldier of Fortune magazine are connected in various way with the above groups.... and ALL of them contribute heavily to election campaigns which agree to oppose ALL gun laws...including gun shows!

Note, olddude... New York State Rifle & Pistol Association is now run by one of those dedicated to NO restrictions...let's see if your vaunted tough laws last a few more years!

Also...note the relationships between all those and Stephen Feinberg who is involved with Cerberus Capital Management. " Steve and Gisela Feinberg are prolific donors to the Republican Party and related organizations."

So, you see? All the money, all the politics, all the ownership of firearms manufacturers, all the 'sports' gun groups who are supporting each other? Make a guess where the NRA fits into the equation!

(Statistics say 20-30 MORE were shot and several killed since I saw that show yesterday)...and YOU, Dan, are gonna cope by you & YOUR family carrying MORE weapons? Pardon me while I laugh hollowly!~

Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun....
From: Bill D
Date: 24 Jul 12 - 03:57 PM

(I tried to find a video of the program I saw, but they don't seem to host all the shows) Current TV, since Keith Olbermann left, is not seen by nearly as many as MSNBC and CNN, but they do some good work.

Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun....
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 24 Jul 12 - 04:05 PM

He certainly looks pretty mentally disturbed, for what that's worth, which isn't much.

Even with insanity there's a kind of rationale for something like this, and the important thing should be trying to identify what kind of factors could have led up to it,in the hope of trying to prevent something like this happening again. Thinking in terms of death penalties and so forth just gets in the way of that, and focuses attention on stuff that is essentially irrelevant.

Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun....
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 24 Jul 12 - 04:28 PM

Thank you Bettynh for that info. - two very different outcomes. McGrath, I only posed my questions because many Americans, both on this thread and in the News, have been baying for the gunman to be given the Death Penalty. I was interested to learn how they view such insane crimes. Understandably they're incensed and vengeful, but, as you so rightly point out, it's better to try to understand how this came about with a view to preventing such things in future.

Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun....
From: Greg F.
Date: 24 Jul 12 - 04:35 PM

Are the nuts really in a majority in the USA,

Damn near, Kevin, Damn near. And I speak from personal experience.

Have ya read Idiot America yet? it would be instructive.

Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun....
From: Jack Campin
Date: 24 Jul 12 - 04:45 PM

it's better to try to understand how this came about with a view to preventing such things in future

We already have all the knowledge we need.

- elaborate systems of psychotic delusion involving very complicated planning have been documented for 200 years

- many such cases involve determined, intelligent and effective concealment of any problem

- violent outbursts are sometimes predictable and containable but the most extremely violent ones aren't

- what makes a violent outburst really deadly is access to lethal weaponry, and the more lethal the weaponry the more deadly the outcome.

The last factor is the only one subject to societal intervention. In most societies the desirability of that intervention isn't an issue.

Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun....
From: katlaughing
Date: 24 Jul 12 - 04:49 PM

Thanks, MtheGM...anyone who knows me, knows I did not use "UKers" in any pejorative way. Good thing I didn't use "Yookers" as I did think about it!

Duly noted...don't use "UKers," again!

FWIW, I am in Colorado, raised by second-generation Colorado parents, and I abhor the death penalty. I might feel differently if it were one of my family, but mostly I feel sadness and pity that someone thinks such violence as Aurora are answers to whatever conflicts they struggled with. Likewise, I do not see the death penalty as an anything but an Old Testament kind of action. Oh, and FWIW, I live in one of the most conservative parts of the state and I don't see "gun freaks" running around all over.

Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun....
From: GUEST,Lighter
Date: 24 Jul 12 - 05:20 PM

Conversation:

X:
"He's not insane. He knew exactly what he was doing. He playing crazy so they'll let him walk."

Y:
"If they think he's crazy, he'll go to a barred nuthouse for the criminally insane for the rest of life. He's not walking anywhere."

X:
"A smart lawyer can get him off on a technicality."


As for passing new laws and enforcing old ones to prevent *this* kind of a crime, good luck! Holmes apparently violated no law till he set his booby traps and opened fire in the theater.

Closing the gun-show loophole would be a great idea, but it wouldn't prevent *this* kind of deranged crime.

Roughly 200,000,000 legitimate gun owners in the U.S. Mean number of mass shootings annually : maybe 1. Or fewer.

No conceivable non-totalitarian policy can prevent such a statistically tiny "crime rate."

And for you totalitarians, your favorite kind of government would have to face down 200,000,000 gun owners if it tried to ban all guns. Not the best way to go.

Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun....
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 24 Jul 12 - 05:25 PM

300 (calibre)