Lyrics & Knowledge Personal Pages Record Shop Auction Links Radio & Media Kids Membership Help
The Mudcat Cafesj

Post to this Thread - Printer Friendly - Home
Page: [1] [2] [3] [4] [5] [6] [7] [8] [9] [10]


BS: Where now Thatcher haters?

Related threads:
Lyr Req: Dedicated Follower of Thatcher (21)
BS: What qualities in Thatcher do you admire (130)
BS: Iron lady (100)
BS: Yanks make a Thatcher film!!! (204)
BS: Thatcher expenses (72)
BS: Nasty Thatcher rightly calls Palin nuts? (113)
BS: Margaret Thatcher's Birthday-13 Oct 1925 (149)
BS: Meryl Streep as Thatcher (37)
Mrs Thatcher's March by Vladimir O'Leary (1)
BS:Thatcher's Legacy (31)
carol thatcher death threats (281)
BS: Margaret Thatcher meets mudcatter (90)
BS: Mrs Thatcher had dementia (89) (closed)
BS: The last days of Thatcher (166)
BS: Thatcher is finally finished! (32)
BS: Who Should Play Thatcher ?. (51)
BS: Was Thatcher right? (125)
BS: Happy Birthday Mrs Thatcher-13 Oct 1925 (165)
Obit: thatcher (not) dead (55)
BS: Mrs Thatcher, the glory years. (27)
BS: Margaret Thatcher (43) (closed)
BS: Thatchers Revenge (7) (closed)
BS: Maggie Thatcher Day (122) (closed)
BS: Thatcher Statue Beheaded (42) (closed)
BS: Thatcher speaks no more (116) (closed)
BS: Statecraft - More critique of Thatcher (2) (closed)
BS: Thatcher's statue (64) (closed)
BS: Margaret Thatcher-any comments? (168) (closed)


Steve Shaw 13 Sep 12 - 07:36 PM
GUEST,achmelvich 13 Sep 12 - 06:31 PM
John MacKenzie 13 Sep 12 - 05:49 PM
Steve Shaw 13 Sep 12 - 04:59 PM
GUEST,achmelvich 13 Sep 12 - 04:48 PM
John MacKenzie 13 Sep 12 - 04:37 PM
GUEST,achmelvich 13 Sep 12 - 04:13 PM
John MacKenzie 13 Sep 12 - 03:51 PM
GUEST,Big Al Whittle 13 Sep 12 - 03:38 PM
MikeL2 13 Sep 12 - 02:43 PM
GUEST,achmelvich 13 Sep 12 - 02:18 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 13 Sep 12 - 09:45 AM
Richard Bridge 13 Sep 12 - 09:21 AM
GUEST,achmelvich 13 Sep 12 - 09:12 AM
Stu 13 Sep 12 - 07:40 AM
GUEST,Big Al Whittle 13 Sep 12 - 06:59 AM
GUEST,Big Al Whittle 13 Sep 12 - 06:05 AM
John MacKenzie 13 Sep 12 - 05:28 AM
Keith A of Hertford 13 Sep 12 - 04:48 AM
GUEST,wyrdolafr 12 Sep 12 - 08:00 AM
John MacKenzie 12 Sep 12 - 06:56 AM
wyrdolafr 12 Sep 12 - 04:10 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 11 Sep 12 - 10:51 AM
GUEST,Musket sans cookie 11 Sep 12 - 10:28 AM
Richard Bridge 10 Sep 12 - 03:48 PM
Jim Carroll 10 Sep 12 - 01:17 PM
Big Al Whittle 10 Sep 12 - 12:59 PM
Nigel Parsons 10 Sep 12 - 12:59 PM
Richard Bridge 10 Sep 12 - 12:29 PM
John MacKenzie 10 Sep 12 - 10:48 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 10 Sep 12 - 10:27 AM
Big Al Whittle 10 Sep 12 - 10:04 AM
John MacKenzie 10 Sep 12 - 09:48 AM
Richard Bridge 10 Sep 12 - 09:42 AM
Big Al Whittle 10 Sep 12 - 07:13 AM
Big Al Whittle 10 Sep 12 - 07:10 AM
John MacKenzie 10 Sep 12 - 04:26 AM
Big Al Whittle 09 Sep 12 - 08:18 PM
GUEST,achmelvich 09 Sep 12 - 06:18 PM
GUEST,achmelvich 09 Sep 12 - 05:13 PM
akenaton 09 Sep 12 - 03:16 PM
Keith A of Hertford 09 Sep 12 - 02:13 PM
John MacKenzie 09 Sep 12 - 11:54 AM
GUEST,achmelvich 09 Sep 12 - 09:40 AM
GUEST,Musket sans cookie 09 Sep 12 - 09:12 AM
Big Al Whittle 09 Sep 12 - 07:34 AM
Will Fly 09 Sep 12 - 07:34 AM
Stu 09 Sep 12 - 07:17 AM
MGM·Lion 09 Sep 12 - 07:03 AM
Big Al Whittle 09 Sep 12 - 07:02 AM

Share Thread
more
Lyrics & Knowledge Search [Advanced]
DT  Forum Child
Sort (Forum) by:relevance date
DT Lyrics:













Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 Sep 12 - 07:36 PM

Yeah, brilliant pics that bring it all back. I spent a good few days there in '75 and '76 (I know how to pick good summers!) with the lady who was to become my missus at the end of '76. We're still here after 35 years. The warden's name was Colin Jolly and he never had the heart to turn anyone away no matter how crowded - I'll swear people were sleeping on the roof on one or two nights!! I know a secret place not two hundred yards from the hostel, not in your pics, where we... well, you know! I managed Cul Mor, Cul Beag, Canisp and Quinag, but not Stack Polly or Suilven. Yet!?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: GUEST,achmelvich
Date: 13 Sep 12 - 06:31 PM

thanks for them photies, john. i have nearly always been on my own apart from the divers- when on that lovely beach. i can't complain living in the lakes, cockermouth - but i sometimes feel that every day i'm not up in the north west is a day wasted. you live not far from there? mckenzie?- ullapool?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 13 Sep 12 - 05:49 PM

Idyllic spot, and not too far away from where I sit now.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 Sep 12 - 04:59 PM

How about the bullies who used to stand in factory yards encouraging people to vote for strikes in a sort of "we're watching to see who doesn't vote" manner.

How do you know it was like that, Nige? Were you there? Or are you fondly remembering reports in truthful papers like the Sun and Mail? You are painting a suspiciously tabloid picture here. Is your middle name Kelvin?

Cheers for remembering my good friend Blair Peach, achmelvich. And I have wonderful, romantic memories of Achmelvich youth hostel in the early 70s!


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: GUEST,achmelvich
Date: 13 Sep 12 - 04:48 PM

agree with you there john - i think we all have bought the line that the police are infected by a few bad apples. i still believed that they are for the most part good people doing a difficult job - despite everything. today's shocking news has blown that apart. that so many people can sustain such awful lies over such a long time is appalling. surely they couldn't have done so without the knowledge of elements of the governments in office. and murdoch.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 13 Sep 12 - 04:37 PM

Oh she's not my heroine, I just try to be objective. Which is more thtn can be said about many of those posting in the thread.
What I'm saying is,the police thought they were untouchable, long before Maggie came along. They were taken at their word, and when giving evidence, and were believed before those against whom they gave that evidence. Believe it or not, the police were once respected members of society!
I suspect that such things had been going on long before Hillsborough. Just that nobody thought the police would do anything as dishonourable as tell lies to convict the innocent, or falsify their records to cover their arses.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: GUEST,achmelvich
Date: 13 Sep 12 - 04:13 PM

to say that anyone is blaming thatcher - solely or even directly - for the tragedy at hillsborough is deliberately simplifying the points that i and others are trying to make. i am remembering the climate of the times -it was confrontational and dismissive of sections of our society. she had a part to play in that -in fact it was a crucial element of her appeal to her supporters as the iron lady.
simplify and change the subject if you like but surely by now you must accept that all is not entirely rosy in the story of your heroine, the police, the press and the british establishment.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 13 Sep 12 - 03:51 PM

Sorry, but I don't know whether it's paranoia, or an inferiority complex that's going on here.
To blame Maggie for Hillsborough, and mean it, is to me the signs of someone losing grasp of reason.
Up until comparatively recently, the notion of a bent copper was something one read in books. The word of a policeman was always believed beofre that of most people, when it came to evidence in a court of law.
Bear that in mind, when you accuse the police of thinking they were untouchable. Most other law abiding people also thought the police were untouchable, and held them in high esteem.
The resentment of trade unionists against the police for upholding the law during strikes, knows no bounds, but remember this, many of those policemen also thought it was wrong that they had to do what the law required, but they had a job to do, a pension to look forward to, and possibly even a tied house to worry about.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: GUEST,Big Al Whittle
Date: 13 Sep 12 - 03:38 PM

I think we should let Don have the last word. We don't agree with him - but we aren't rejecting him as a human being, like that bastard Thatcher did with so much of the population.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: MikeL2
Date: 13 Sep 12 - 02:43 PM

hi

<" Don't forget Boris Bloody Stupid Johnson and his open letter of vilification of Liverpudlians ">

Today on lunchtime TV News Boris apologized but it neither looked like nor sounded like an apology to me.

Cheers

MikeL2


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: GUEST,achmelvich
Date: 13 Sep 12 - 02:18 PM

i lived through it and my understanding of what happened is presumably very different from yours. we cannot both be right -and maybe in some cases there is no absolute truth. but sometimes we can look back and -with hindsight- agree that events that were presented to us in a certain way were not telling the whole story. with the efforts of determined people as in the current case, or for example those jailed for the bombings in birmingham and guildford- a bit more truth can be revealed and we all have to reassess our opinions. and then ask why we were lied to and who benefited from those lies and distortions.

no, i wasn't making any comparisons with wilson and callaghan years-that would be another thread. and of course it's always been them and us - it's just that they have won so i am a bit cross. and it was all part of the plan from back then to shock the world into accepting a vicious and anti-democratic plan for the benefit of the owners of global capital. all came from friedman, hayek and them chicago boys, you know - not very nice men. and thatcher.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 13 Sep 12 - 09:45 AM

""maybe you are forgetting the prevailing climate back then. she was explicity responsible for encouraging the idea of a 'them and us' society and derided anyone not of her liking.""

Frigging hilarious!   Also arrant bloody nonsense!

Are you trying to say that the Wilson/Callaghan years were a model of unity and harmony, with workers, unions and employers marching arm in arm into a rosy future of prosperity for all.

Don't make me laugh, mate, the late sixties and the whole of the seventies were a constant series of battles between "them" and "us", with the gutless Labour govrnments wringing their hands on the sidelines, while the unions ruled (ruined) British Industry and the Economy.

You don't need a history book if you lived through it.

Don T.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 13 Sep 12 - 09:21 AM

Don't forget Boris Bloody Stupid Johnson and his open letter of vilification of Liverpudlians.

And don't forget to marvel at anyone who can describe the Korean war as "detente".


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: GUEST,achmelvich
Date: 13 Sep 12 - 09:12 AM

while thatcher may not have been directly involved in the hillsborough tragedy and cover up, maybe you are forgetting the prevailing climate back then. she was explicity responsible for encouraging the idea of a 'them and us' society and derided anyone not of her liking. from 'wets' in her own party to trade unionists, the unemployed, football fans, scots, northerners and particularly scousers could be labelled 'the enemy within' and their interests discounted. the shocking headlines could not have appeared without the tacit encouragment from murdoch and the government of the day.
we have seen (from successive governments) a tolerance of some very dubious activities by the police on many occasions and i really cannot remember any convictions appropriate to the seriousness of some of the offences - the Ian Tomlinson and Jean Charles de Menezes killings being recent examples. nor should we forget Blair Peach.
in all these and other cases the understanding of what actually happened has only been won after a long, hard fight by the families of the victims. understanding though is still a long way from justice.
thatcher was happy to offer support to her friend pinochet - a proven mass murderer - with no sympathy for the victims of his well-documented brutality who were -of course- not 'our' sort of people. unlike pinochet, murdoch, reagan and the rest of her ghastly crew.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: Stu
Date: 13 Sep 12 - 07:40 AM

Thatcher dragged herself into the Hillsborough tragedy by advising against publishing the criticisms of the police (quote lifted from the BBC website):

"What do we mean by 'welcoming the broad thrust of the report'? The broad thrust is devastating criticism of the police. Is that for us to welcome? Surely we welcome the thoroughness of the report and its recommendations - M.T."

Bear in mind Thatcher had turned the police into a tool for imposing her will on ordinary people, and this statement betrays her thinking in this matter.

There's another of her great legacies: Turning parts of the police force into paramilitary units. Making sure they are unaccountable for their actions, and are never, ever convicted even in such blindingly obvious cases such as the death of Ian Tomlinson. The force is a closed shop, institutionally corrupt and Thatcher was responsible for allowing this to happen, primarily during the miner's strike.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: GUEST,Big Al Whittle
Date: 13 Sep 12 - 06:59 AM

I suppose that's how it is with history.

Somepeople see it one way some people another.

Take this TV series the Tudors. There is Bluff King Hal roistering and decapitating, enjoying the Field of the cloth of gold - staring the Church of England. Lotsa fun.

But other people remember the 72, 00 people executed in his reign, the extravagance, the disease the poverty, the cruelty.

I suppose it depends on where you were when the axe fell.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: GUEST,Big Al Whittle
Date: 13 Sep 12 - 06:05 AM

Nonsense John - she created the climate where evryone she didn't like was a criminal....a wet. And as such you could kill IRA men, trade unionists, slander, ruin political rivals with abuse from scum sheets that were most definitely on her side.

her and tebbit's rhetoric gave carte blanche to every surburban Mussolini to behave like monsters.

Like Keith said it was the times...but how you remember the times is another thing.

Don't agree with a word Keith, but best wishes old man! Come to Nottinghamshire mine villages and see her proud success.( success my arse!)


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 13 Sep 12 - 05:28 AM

I read this morning that Jack Straw has blamed Margaret Thatcher for the conduct of the police during and after the Hillsborough disaster.
What a sad silly thing to say. Jack Straw transmogrified from left wing student leadr, to a nasty Home Secretary, who seemed more right wing than Ghengis Khan. The man is obviously paranoid.
To sully such a tragedy, and mass cover up by the police, by dragging in Maggie T, is sick!


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 13 Sep 12 - 04:48 AM

David Hannan in Daily Telegraph

did our best to contextualise Thatcherism by describing the calamity that had preceded it. It is difficult, these days, to convey the sheer unremitting awfulness of the 1970s: the pessimism, the rancour, double-digit inflation, price controls, incomes policies, power cuts, the three-day-week, the winter of discontent. It felt as if we were finished as a country. Throughout the 1960s and 1970s, we had been outperformed by every European economy. "Britain is a tragedy – it has sunk to borrowing, begging, stealing until North Sea oil comes in," said Henry Kissinger. The Wall Street Journal was blunter: "Goodbye, Great Britain: it was nice knowing you".



Then came the r̩veil national. Inflation fell, strikes stopped, the latent enterprise of a free people was awakened. Having lagged behind for a generation, we outgrew every European country in the 1980s except Spain (which was bouncing back from an even lower place). As revenues flowed in, taxes were cut and debt was repaid, while public spending Рcontrary to almost universal belief Рrose. In the Falklands, Margaret Thatcher showed the world that a great country doesn't retreat forever. And, by ending the wretched policy of one-sided d̩tente that had allowed the Soviets to march into Europe, Korea and Afghanistan, she set in train the events that would free hundreds of millions of people from what, in crude mathematical terms, must be reckoned the most murderous ideology humanity has known.






Then Evan Harris for the Lib Dems and, even more, the undergraduate speakers, attacked her in personal and aggressive terms, blaming her for everything from human rights abuses in China to the recent financial crisis. (Quite an achievement for someone who left office 20 years ago.)



Where does it come from, this inchoate hatred? Anti-Thatcherites tell you that it's because she closed down the old industries. (She didn't, of course: she simply stopped obliging everyone else to support them.) Yet it must surely be obvious by now that nothing would have kept the dockyards and coalmines and steel mills open. A similar process of deindustrialisation has unfolded in every other Western European country, and the only parties that still talk of "reviving our manufacturing base" are Respect, the Scottish Socialists and the BNP.



No, what Lefties (with honourable exceptions) find so hard to forgive is the lady's very success: the fact that she rescued a country that they had dishonoured and impoverished; that she inherited a Britain that was sclerotic, indebted and declining and left it proud, wealthy and free; that she never lost an election to them.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: GUEST,wyrdolafr
Date: 12 Sep 12 - 08:00 AM

John MacKenzie, if council housing is "another ball game", it's a related ball game as HB takes up some a large chunk of welfare spending.

'Right to Buy' was a complete mess: it was an ideological sleight of hand and the execution of it was ludicrous. Thatcher et al was so certain that the proles could really be affluent, 'arrived' potential home owners, then it should have been possible for them to own homes in the first place without out the need for a 'knock down' housing sell-off. This deceit was the first act of the 'middle-class fantasy' play concluded by the availability of 'easy credit'.

The monies raised from the housing sell-off should have gone into more housing but they didn't and the building of 'social housing' and even new 'affordable' housing is becoming a rarity at a time when there's a chronic housing crisis. Even the idea of 'affordable' housing is a joke when so many people in work are eligble for housing benefit because of rent prices (and not just in the 18 bedroom mansions stories loved by the likes of the Daily Mail).

I agree with the 'judge by need' idea but I'm not sure how would be a realistic or moral way to implement this. The earnings argument is similarly difficult as there's an argument this would hinder the kind of 'aspiration' that the Tories love to talk about. However, talk of "earnings" is all a bit moot considering most people lucky enough to have a job these days are seeing wage freezes, pay cuts: a pattern that's going to continue for a good few years yet. All those part-time jobs with zero hour contracts that the Coalition seem to think are 'good news' aren't going to generate bread-winners with high wages. Cut working tax credits and the conditions needed to get them in the first place only exacerbates the problem.

You might (or not) be glad to know that your neighbour might have to move soon if he's of working age (including disabled people). Housing benefits are being cut to begin with, but the double whammy of the 'bedroom tax' is also being introduced. Tenants with a single 'spare' bedroom (doesn't matter the size) will pay an extra 14% of their rent themselves. Tenants like your neighbour with two 'spare' bedrooms will have to find an extra 25%.

I live in a 1960s-vintage block of flats outside Manchester that was passed on to a social landlord in the mid-1990s. I live in the pilot area for universal credit which means I'll have the universal credit, the reduced housing benefit and an extra 14% or my rent to find to contend with all at once. Due to the chronic lack of 1 bedroom social houses places available for exchange (no private landlords in my area take benefit recipients), my landlord has explained that I'll be homeless myself come April as the rents will be more than I can could possibly receive in benefits (even if I didn't have to pay gas/electric/water; the latter being £10 a week alone).


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 12 Sep 12 - 06:56 AM

Council housing is another ball game.
IF, it was right to let people buy their council houses. Then the monies rised should have been hypothecated, and used to build more council houses, and ONLY for that purpose.
Of those council houses remaining, they should be regulated better. Several thoughts occur. Firstly, where those occupying the house earn over a given amount, surely they should be disqualified from being in need of council housing?
The ability to "inherit" a tenancy should be judged by need, and not by being the child of the previous tenant.
When the number of occupants fslls well below the space available, they should be found smaller, suitable, accomodation, leaving the home vacant for a larger family.
Some of these can be achieved by fixed term renewable tenancies.
In the same way as government grants to councils are regulated by population, so also should the requirement on those councils to build houses for rent.
There is a bloke behind me, living alone in a 3 bedroom council house, which was his parents house. Why can he not be rehoused in more suitable accomodation?
The theory of council housing is great, the practice is crap, and we need to start again with better guidelines.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: wyrdolafr
Date: 12 Sep 12 - 04:10 AM

Teribus
We can no longer afford our Welfare State because too many people want something for nothing."

In a sense, you're right, but probably not in the way you intended. Housing Benefit takes up a massive chunk of the 'welfare state'. A huge proportion of HB is claimed by people actually in work. Hardly 'something for nothing'.

The problem with HB isn't the claimants - it's not as if they're setting the rents. The problem is BTL landlords high on 'property porn' TV with expectations ramped up by a media's obsession with property prices. The problem is with the current government actively ramping-up HB costs by forcing Housing Associations to ramp up the rents of 'social housing' so they are 80% of 'market value'. The problem is an artificially created dearth of available/cheap housing triggered by 'council housing' sell-offs.

Bring back rent caps and create a massive 'council house' building programme with councils actually building and maintaining the stock rather than private firms and HB and the over-all cost of the 'welfare state' will drop like a stone. Also, like existing (ex) council stock, they'll pay for themselves many times over.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 11 Sep 12 - 10:51 AM

""Every vote for a conservative enables a parasite like Mark Reckless to parrot the plutocrats' lines - I bet he'll be out to support Beecroft by the back door soon now.""

So either do something about it, gather a few others who agree with you. and get in his face and let him know who he'll need to convince to keep his job.

That's what I do with my MP, who must be just about sick of hearing from meand several others.

Otherwise go back to whingeing on a music forum and vote for the Incompetence party as usual.

That'll really help..........NOT!

Don T.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: GUEST,Musket sans cookie
Date: 11 Sep 12 - 10:28 AM

Aye Bridge, and of course anybody other than a Tory would meet discussions in the middle ground eh? That's why you reckon one side has the right to class warfare but the other side doesn't?

Zzzz

Snag is, when the working class Heros get into power they seem to act just like the Tories they deride. How very interesting ..

You see, the thing is, Cameron isn't acting like the Tory bastard he is portrayed as. No, he, just like Broon, Bliar, Minor etc is trying to enact social democracy funded through capitalism. The other thing he has in common with previous Prime Ministers is that he has idealists on his back who swallow and believe their fundamentalist crap. Whether that be Tory or Labour. Oh, and he is personally incompetent but that's another matter. We should be grateful otherwise he might have got even more policies through!

The last Prime Minister who was at one with her back bench nutters was?

Any guesses?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 10 Sep 12 - 03:48 PM

Nigel - when considering conservative "reforms" you have to understand what they were trying to do. Thatcherite and subsequent "reforms" to trade union law were about one thing only - to stop workers successfully combining, since only by combining with other workers could workers have enough power to negotiate in meaningful terms with capital. The secret ballot is innocuous enough (so long as it is honest) but in union law secret ballots came with other baggage all with one objective: to give power to the bosses.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Sep 12 - 01:17 PM

"Fortunately a thing of the past since the Tories insisted on secret ballots."
Perhaps one day they will get around to abolishing the whipping system in Parliament and replacing it with the freedom to vote as your concience dictates instead of the bullying and manhandling that prevails at the present time - stranger things have happened at sea!!
Jim Carroll


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 10 Sep 12 - 12:59 PM

I know its incredibly hard form prople who haven't been there to understand - but most problems that you encounter in life have been met at sometime by somone else. Getting disabled, having a drink or drugs problem, losing your job....


You make some sort of recovery but don't win as many tricks as you could have done.

Years later, you just wish you could elp other people - because deep down you KNOW there were people who weren't as lucky as you were.- some people just get wiped out by adversity. And you can help people with your know how and insight.

The doctor sends you home with your problem and you have to work out what you can cling on to and what you have to let go. You have to grieve for your old life - its gone. Good friends can help you maximise what is left to you - perhaps even like these paralympic heroes find a whole new better life.

Unfortunately you will meet enemies - people who steal from you as much as they can. people who will erode your rights. you won't know about them until you go to the hospital and find that its been built on top of a hill that disabled people can't climb. Then you will understand the meaning of theft - the contract has been given to some shyster.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 10 Sep 12 - 12:59 PM

Don - I hate bullies. I hate bullies who do it with money just as much as those who do it with clubs.
How about the bullies who used to stand in factory yards encouraging people to vote for strikes in a sort of "we're watching to see who doesn't vote" manner.
Fortunately a thing of the past since the Tories insisted on secret ballots.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 10 Sep 12 - 12:29 PM

Every vote for a conservative enables a parasite like Mark Reckless to parrot the plutocrats' lines - I bet he'll be out to support Beecroft by the back door soon now.

Incidentally Don and Jock, there is a name for the rich who do support the poor. Philanthropists.

Jock - I don't know your current situation. Not all are as resilient as you. By toeing the capitalist line of self sufficiency you condemn those less able to misery. But of course capitalists think that is merited.

Don - I hate bullies. I hate bullies who do it with money just as much as those who do it with clubs. Conservatives enable bullies. If ability was all it was about, why did you not, with your ability and diligence, become wealthy? Things went wrong for you and as a human being you deserved state support. Why deny it to others? You have swallowed a line, a line that kowtows to the plutocrats.

The oppression of the poor by the rich has to stop.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 10 Sep 12 - 10:48 AM

Well Al, I see much of what goes on in this so called class war as pathetic, not empathetic.
I've been there, slept on station benches, friend's floors and sofas. Been made redundant several times, been treated like shit by employers.
All I did was keep on keeping on, and eventually life sorted itself out.
Do I resent it? No I don't, because I'm not a grudge bearer. Did I ask someone else to fight my battles for me? No I didn't.
Self reliance is the name of the game as far as I'm concerned.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 10 Sep 12 - 10:27 AM

""Don - people like you who support the rich against the poor (when you are one yourself) are fools who have swallowed propaganda from the capitalist press.""

Bollocks! I'll stack my intelligence against yours any day.

All you do is stand on the sidelines hurling shit at anybody who dares to disagree with your sneering, ranting, hatred of Tories.

The best way to make a difference and hope to move things in the direction you want them to go, is to get involved and make a pest of yourself from the inside of the group. If only enough of my fellow Tories would get up off their arses and join in, we would change the direction of the party.

Some of you might do well to think on that, but you won't, because "workin' men votes Labour, innit!"

Well mate, New Labour and you can just keep up the chimp act and achieve f**K all.

Maybe I won't make much of a difference, if any, but at least I'm trying. Anyway I certainly won't do any worse than the sideline screamers.

They say "Two Ed's are better than one", but only if they have a brain apiece and some inkling of what to do with it.

Don T.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 10 Sep 12 - 10:04 AM

Yes John, but anyone who empathises with the rich against the poor, the strong against the vulneable - well.....they're a bit sad. the biggest bullies in the schoolyard always have hangers on - but you can't really respect someone like that.

well obviously some folk can....


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 10 Sep 12 - 09:48 AM

Richard - people like you who support the poor against the rich (when you are one yourself) are fools who have swallowed propaganda from the left wing press.


It works both ways Richard ;)


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 10 Sep 12 - 09:42 AM

Don - people like you who support the rich against the poor (when you are one yourself) are fools who have swallowed propaganda from the capitalist press.

Mither - THIS government is decreasing the availability of treatment and drugs in the NHS right now.   - oh, as well as planning to cut the benefits that supported the paralympians they pretend to admire.

War on the workers?

"‎'Employers will find it easier and cheaper to fire people under new laws due to be unveiled this week, the new growth minister has said.

Michael Fallon, a key ally of David Cameron, said the new plans would deal with the "burdensome" and "expensive" problem of getting rid of unwanted staff.'"


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 10 Sep 12 - 07:13 AM

as Toyota proved - if you can offer good jobs - you can call the shots.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 10 Sep 12 - 07:10 AM

Look stop worrying about unions. Start producing goods people want, and they will find the money. Supply and demand. That easy.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 10 Sep 12 - 04:26 AM

So they should build their factories in a country where, the moment they get near an important deadline, the unions ask for more money, and threaten strike action.
Like BA staff choosing holiday weekends to hold strikes, tube workers, and others, threatening to go on strike during the Olympics, unless they get a bonus, for doing the same job as they do now!
I'm sorry, but that's not negotiation, that's bully boy tactics, and it is one of the many things that have disillusioned me, and many others, about the aims and ethics of trade unionism.
It seems such a good idea most of the time, then they employ the sort of repressive tactics that they moan about the employers using.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 09 Sep 12 - 08:18 PM

INMHO

The Queen , and Charlie, and the Duke of Westminster - own nowt. What they have is the stewardship of enormous publcly owned wealth.

Allright if times were normal - but the great corporations have decided to wage economic against us by bulding huge whizzy factories in places like China, supporting countries that use child labour, and slave labour.

To sit on the crown's resources of wealth in times like these is comparable with Victoria's £5 contribution to the Irish famine fund. Totally missing the point.

Anyway you all seem to have made your mind up otherwise and decided that as usual, confronted by a sea of troubles the best thing is to hope that our feet don't too wet, and put the kettle on.

Who knows - you may be right.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: GUEST,achmelvich
Date: 09 Sep 12 - 06:18 PM

apologies - of course that should have read 'fuck off and die' - just thought that what this thread -as with most other things in life these days-was missing is a bit of old hippy peace and love -pete


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: GUEST,achmelvich
Date: 09 Sep 12 - 05:13 PM

apocolyptic crap. capitalism will stutter along for a while, but democracy and hope will rise again. we will all shuffle about a bit, get cross and then hopefully settle down to a slightly fairer world. eventually, we should all get off arses and - in a long suffering sort of way, gently tell that 1% to fuck off and leave the rest of us to get on loving the good things about each other and loving our planet. not a lot to ask really - you warmongers have had a decent run. now lock the gates on your luxury estates, count your money, beg for forgiveness- and die.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: akenaton
Date: 09 Sep 12 - 03:16 PM

I agree with T, that WE, at this point in time, cannot afford the NHS as it stands.

That is not to say that a publically funded NHS is not viable, under a different social/economic system, with a populace which does not buy into "grab what you can consumerism" ...and which does not believe in a mantra of entitlement to a high standard of living, just for being born.

Capitalism has failed in the West.....even the Americans are coming to believe that...and all the alternatives will mean hard times for us and our spoilt children.
Hard times will mean hard measures, the idiocy of much of the rights agenda will have to be abandoned....when children are starving and the bullets start flying, the rights of religious, sexual or racial minorities will be stuck back in the locker.
Survival will be the only game in town.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 09 Sep 12 - 02:13 PM

Al, it was not the Labour Party, or even the Labour movement that put a stop to child labour and the transportation of such as the Tolpuddle Martyrs.
It was middle class philanthropists and active Christians.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 09 Sep 12 - 11:54 AM

Ah the late unlamented Sir Stifford Crapps.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: GUEST,achmelvich
Date: 09 Sep 12 - 09:40 AM

good point - i got bored with this topic a long time ago. what if we just ignored that small sect of south-eastern white tossers? i've decided i never moved back over the border, listen to radio scotland and other stations-and don't watch tv. i regard edinburgh as the capital city - it's great -no tories up here and hopefully, soon, amongst many other benefits-no trident. it's a start. next step to follow the example of the falkland islands and choose to be part of a country a long way away with which they have historic links. i lived half my life over the border and it's only 35 miles away - getting those sado-masochistic bunch of weirdos off my back should be a peace of piss.
anyone wanting to wander off down this track -a tory free zone? - it's on another thread-something about moving a wall.

bye - pete


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: GUEST,Musket sans cookie
Date: 09 Sep 12 - 09:12 AM

I'm confused?

Does all this talk of Cripps, Benn et al, not to mention Akenaton's fixation with bottom feeders, which given his views on bowling from the pavilion end... mean nobody is interested in the debate any more?

Are the present contributors Th*tcher haters as per the OP or is it a race to be more noble than the other idiots when it comes to ferret down the trousers flat cap socialism?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 09 Sep 12 - 07:34 AM

I agree with you Terry. I suppose we are at a disadvantage with countries who do 'allow' children to work more than 10 hours a day in factories.

I guess it depends on what sort of society you want to live in. Of the glittering opportunities open to most kid when our education system has finished with them (sixty years of education being a political football) , I think i would rather have them in hoodies taking drugs, listening to hip hop music and nicking stuff from JJB than working in a factory.

Also you have to remember England had more disabled people to take care of - germany had done in many of the families producing disabled people - didn't waste gas on them, as I remember they were hanged -even the kids.

Oh yes, we have our faults, if you wish to consider them as such. We are not the perfect economic model.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: Will Fly
Date: 09 Sep 12 - 07:34 AM

Agreed, Michael - Cripps was a terrible man. A shame indeed for the 1945 Labour government. I believe Atlee to have been a halfway decent PM, but Cripps was a terror and should never have been appointed.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: Stu
Date: 09 Sep 12 - 07:17 AM

"we can no longer afford the NHS, nothing political in that statement it is simply a reality"

Yes we can.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 09 Sep 12 - 07:03 AM

Will ~~ I have much respect for Benn, a man of true principle ~ principles which I happen not to share, but which I can nevertheless recognise as such. The one I despise, going back a socialist generation, I repeat is Cripps; an austere ascetic who confused socialism with his own peculiar variant of puritanism, and destroyed the 1945 Labour Government as a consequence. Attlee couldn't control him, as he imposed it on a nation who, in the previous 6 years, had cheerfully and patriotically suffered privations, seeing their homes and cities flattened, lived in daily anticipation of the telegram to tell them a loved-one was dead, seen the photographs of the industrialised gas-to-death organisations like Auschwitz & Treblinka or starve-to-death ones like Buchenwald & Bergen-Belsen as a reminder of what all that strife & suffering had been endured to avoid ~~ and then, having just succeeded in this monumental effort, at the moment when we had won & thought we might relax and enjoy things just a little bit, along comes Cripps to decide that what we needed was a few [or more] years longer of "austerity" (his own word), because that is what the Hon Sir Stafford, in his self-righteous abrogation of his own heritage, thought was good for people ~~ whether, like Queen Elizabeth I's annual bath, they needed it or not.

And then people are surprised that the one way any Labour campaign became bound to fail was to go to the Country {including the working class} with anything approaching 'socialism' in its manifesto. It wasn't Churchill who destroyed socialism, it was Cripps. It might even have worked ~~ thanks to him we shall never know now: not since he perversely established in the national consciousness its synonymity with his accursed "austerity".

~M~


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 09 Sep 12 - 07:02 AM

but look at all the peoples lives who have been made immeasurably better. Wasn't that worth doing - better than setting up the bastards who made gas for the concentration camps, IMHO.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate


Next Page

 


You must be a member to post in non-music threads. Join here.


You must be a member to post in non-music threads. Join here.



Mudcat time: 20 May 4:17 AM EDT

[ Home ]

All original material is copyright © 2022 by the Mudcat Café Music Foundation. All photos, music, images, etc. are copyright © by their rightful owners. Every effort is taken to attribute appropriate copyright to images, content, music, etc. We are not a copyright resource.