BS: Putin stands up for Christianity!

Subject: BS: Putin stands up for Christianity!
From: GUEST,Tunesmith
Date: 17 Aug 12 - 09:11 AM

There is some fanastic irony in the fact that the Russian leader Putin has used religion as a way of silencing some of his critics.
The Moscow Pussy Riot trial should be seen as a clear warning to the west to get rid of any laws restricting criticism of religions.
There are too many very intelligent scientists and thinkers telling us that religion is dangerous and non-sensical, to let it have any standing in law.
For a start, where does so-called religious intolerance begin and end?
If I organise a march on the theme that "Zeus is a load of rubbish", would I be prosecuted for offending someones sensibilites? And, take it from me, Zeus is just as likely to be real as the god of the Christians.
Here's another one. There is not one shred of evidence that God exists!
But, there is a lot of evidence that the football team Manchester United exists, and so why is it right that people can bad mouth Man Utd with impunity but could be it trouble for bad mouthing god?
Ridiculous!

Subject: RE: BS: Putin stands up for Christianity!
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 17 Aug 12 - 09:28 AM

It's no surprise that religious oppression is an inevitable fall back tactic
to fill the power vacuum left by the dismantling of the soviet communist state..

Religion + organised crime + ruthless politicians + powerful global corporations = ....????

Subject: RE: BS: Putin stands up for Christianity!
From: MarkS
Date: 17 Aug 12 - 09:45 AM

Religion + organised crime + ruthless politicians + powerful global corporations = ....????

A normal day in Chicago??

Subject: RE: BS: Putin stands up for Christianity!
From: Little Hawk
Date: 17 Aug 12 - 11:26 AM

He's obviously defending the position of himself and his government, not that of religion. A supposed defense of Religion is merely the formal excuse for him shutting down a form of political protest that Putin is not pleased with.

However, it has given you another chance to rail against the evils of religion, God, Zeus, and all the other nonmaterialistic concepts like that, and to extoll the purity and innocence of science and worldly materialism which have given us wonderful stuff like the atom bomb, crack cocaine, Hostess Twinkies, and clearcutting of forests...so enjoy the moment, Tunesmith.

As for Manchester United, I think they're a load of fecking rubbish! ;-D See if you can get me arrested now.

Subject: RE: BS: Putin stands up for Christianity!
From: Musket
Date: 17 Aug 12 - 11:49 AM

Ah well Little Hawk, it also gave us the ability to post on this site...

I am disturbed by people, normally those in a position of power over others, using the concept God when they can't win an argument by any other means. I'm not for driving faith underground, but would support any political party that prevented religion being an excuse for laws. Whether it be Sunday trading restrictions, treating gay dudes in the same way as heterosexual ones or thinking your employees are above answering to crimes against vulnerable children, the religious trump card is used time and time again. This is the 21st century for crying out loud!

Sunday trading here in The UK is an even bigger farce when God appeared to have been suspended so that all shops anywhere in the could open normal hours during Olympic Sundays. Kind of negates the stance of the churches methinks....

On gay marriage, the mainstream Church of England did even better. The Archbiship of York, an influential position in UK law making as a Lord, said that Parliament should not be discussing Gay marriage as some things are not for mere people to adjudicate on. God' law was above temporal law.

You know, if a Muslim said that, he would be arrested....

So, Putin embraces the population control the church shares with him? Should we sound surprised?

Subject: RE: BS: Putin stands up for Christianity!
From: Dave MacKenzie
Date: 17 Aug 12 - 11:55 AM

With friends like that, who needs enemies!

Subject: RE: BS: Putin stands up for Christianity!
From: GUEST,Tunesmith
Date: 17 Aug 12 - 12:41 PM

Little Hawk said,

"As for Manchester United, I think they're a load of fecking rubbish!"

Well, you are wrong! And, I can prove - my evidence - that United are one of the best teams in the UK, and a major team in Europe.

Now, where's your evidence for the existence of your God?

Subject: RE: BS: Putin stands up for Christianity!
From: GUEST,999
Date: 17 Aug 12 - 01:13 PM

The gals (Pussy Riot) were sentenced to two years.

Subject: RE: BS: Putin stands up for Christianity!
From: Greg F.
Date: 17 Aug 12 - 01:31 PM

Religion + organised crime + ruthless politicians + powerful global corporations = ....????

A Tea Party Republican caucus?

Subject: RE: BS: Putin stands up for Christianity!
From: GUEST
Date: 17 Aug 12 - 01:32 PM

Is an "equality" agenda any less ridiculous than a Christian one?

Everyone to be treated equally regardless of behaviour?

While there is such a thing as money, humanity will never be equal

Subject: RE: BS: Putin stands up for Christianity!
From: Little Hawk
Date: 17 Aug 12 - 01:38 PM

"My" God???

What sort of evidence did you have in mind? Be specific. There's no point in searching for evidence of something that is nonmaterial if no workable means has yet been established in which to go about doing so...and none has.

How would you go about looking for something which, by definition, has no physical location or any observable outward phenomena which can be measured on an instrument or subjected to a lab test? Tell me.

How do you find a moral concept and weigh it? How do you find ethics, truth, justice, love, passion, idealism, purpose, altruism, compassion, and desire...package them...and test them in the lab? Yet, tunesmith, they ARE the very things (in consciousness) that make life worth living in the first place...that make us human...and which helped give birth to science, culture, and civilization in the first place. And they ARE the primary concerns which gave birth to religion as well.

Putin is just cynically doing what all polticians do to protect his own position, and you and I know that. In doing so, he's no better and no worse than most of them, I expect. He has a rather poor record, ethically speaking, and he's a bit of a hypocrite. No surprise there. Politics seems to demand such forms of hypocrisy.

Subject: RE: BS: Putin stands up for Christianity!
From: GUEST,Tunesmith
Date: 17 Aug 12 - 01:44 PM

Little Hawk, so I take that to mean that you have no proof that there is a God; or, indeed, that you are ever likely to have any proof.
Interesting.

Subject: RE: BS: Putin stands up for Christianity!
From: Arkie
Date: 17 Aug 12 - 06:30 PM

There is no question that people who claim to be representing religion or Christianity, in particular, do so through dangerous and offensive words and action and succeed in making the lives of others much worse. However, I believe that the basic concepts presented in the Old and New Testaments provide a positive path to a way that strengthens, inspires, and guides people into a style of life that can lead to fulfillment, harmony, and responsible, charitable and honorable living. Those who distort the basic concepts for whatever reason are indeed a plague.

Subject: RE: BS: Putin stands up for Christianity!
From: Little Hawk
Date: 17 Aug 12 - 07:11 PM

Of course I have no proof that there is a God, tunesmith. That's a given. I have no proof of a great variety of interesting nonmaterial things which I or anyone else can experience on any given day. This doesn't set me at odds against them or make me wish to deny them or attack them, it just means they aren't material, that's all.

As for religions, they usually began as very serious attempts to find a coherent sense of meaning and morality within material life. A sense of meaning or a sense of morality is also nonmaterial, it can't be measured or weighed, but we all have it to one extent or another, and it makes our lives worthwhile to the extent that we do have it.

The excesses and faults of organized religion through the ages have been many, but they do not blind me to the basic value of religion which is that it is a very important part of humanity's sincere search for a sense of meaning and purpose in life.

Sincerity is another important thing that can't be weighed, tested in a lab, or measured...but it is real and it's valuable. We've all appreciated it when we found it in another, and been disturbed when we found it lacking.

The thing that really matters to me about other people is: Are they kind? Are they honest? Are they responsible? I couldn't care less what religion they belong to, and I have no prejudice toward them on the basis of their religion...or the lack thereof...because many kind, honest, and responsible people are found either within the ranks of the various religions...or outside of them entirely.

Subject: RE: BS: Putin stands up for Christianity!
From: Little Hawk
Date: 17 Aug 12 - 07:34 PM

The HTML got screwed up in the last half of that post. A bit hard on the eyes, isn't it? No matter how carefully I try, I don't always succeed in getting all the codes exactly right. Probably did a forward slash where it should've been a back slash...or something like that.

---

You had the closing thing first and the opening thing last. I may have put them in the right order. --mod

Subject: RE: BS: Putin stands up for Christianity!
From: Musket
Date: 18 Aug 12 - 07:38 AM

I have proof that Man Utd exist. We beat them in the league cup final in 1991. I was there, I saw the great one (John Sheridan) with my own eyes brother!

Anyway someone once said that before you can believe in God you have to understand the concept. So, an American making a claim about football? No basis. A bit like me saying something about your version of rounders or that game with body armour, rugby balls and advert breaks.

If you ever do understand football, we'll let you start watching cricket. Maybe start with 20/20 and after a few years, a test match.

Subject: RE: BS: Putin stands up for Christianity!
From: Arkie
Date: 18 Aug 12 - 11:25 AM

Thanks LH.

Subject: RE: BS: Putin stands up for Christianity!
From: Little Hawk
Date: 18 Aug 12 - 11:35 AM

I was joking about the football. ;-D I do know a little about it, having played some soccer (you call it football, we call it soccer) when I was a youngster. I played it quite a bit one summer when I was down in Mexico. I'm no expert, but I think it's a very good game when it comes to team sports. It provides pretty much continuous action (unlike American football) and it requires a minimum of expensive equipment. All you really need is a ball, an open field, and a set of running shoes. This has been a boon to people in impoverished populations all over the world...so, yeah...great game.

I fully admit to not understanding cricket!!! (grin)

I also agree with you that American Football is a pretty odd game, and I don't have any interest in it at all.

Anyway, I was just "taking the piss" as the English say when I made that cheeky remark about Manchester United. What I was implying was that professional sports events hold no interest for me, and that's a fact. I used to care which team was winning in this or that pro sport when I was a youngster, but I don't give a hoot about it any longer.

***

You're quite correct that before you believe in God...or can even discuss the concept of God in any kind of useful manner...you have to understand the concept of God from some kind of thinking perspective rather than just blindly reacting to it in a knee jerk fashion (which is what is normally done nowadays by either a religious fundamentalist or an atheist fundamentalist). And there are a great variety of different ways of understanding it or thinking about the concept of God. Those ways are not limited to the Christian viewpoint alone. They do not necessarily require believing in a male deity, a traditional Heaven or a traditional Hell. They do not necessarily require a belief in the Bible (or any other holy book) as the literal Word of God. The greatest philosophers and many scientists of the past few thousand years have been wrestling with trying to understand the concept of God and trying to express their views on it since anyone can remember...Goethe, Plato, Aristotle, Aquinas, Aurobindo, Einstein, Darwin, etc. It's only relatively recently that the primitive modern schism between science and religion (which were once a shared discipline) has reduced dialogue on the subject to the mean-spirited utterances of people of blind prejudice who are intent on either a fanatical denial of God or a fanatical assertion of their one specific definition of God.

****

Subject: RE: BS: Putin stands up for Christianity!
From: GUEST,999
Date: 18 Aug 12 - 11:38 AM

"If you ever do understand football, we'll let you start watching cricket."

Bob Newhart on Baseball. (It lasts until 3:15. The rest is dead air.)

Subject: RE: BS: Putin stands up for Christianity!
From: GUEST
Date: 18 Aug 12 - 12:00 PM

LH - you were completely correct about United.

Subject: RE: BS: Putin stands up for Christianity!
From: Fergie
Date: 18 Aug 12 - 03:00 PM

That's what I like about modern religion; it's al la carte and make your own bits up, so that it means anything you want it to means and it's constantly in flux and changing. That way "the mean-spirited utterances of people of blind prejudice who are intent on either a fanatical denial of God or a fanatical assertion of their one specific definition of God" can't pin you down, but you can get to call them any mean-spirited thing you feel like calling them.

May your god go with you Little Hawk.

Subject: RE: BS: Putin stands up for Christianity!
From: Little Hawk
Date: 18 Aug 12 - 07:45 PM

Fergie...life itself is constantly in flux and changing...and people try their best to understand it, and they make their own bits up about it, and all the great philosophers have wrestled with it to try to understand it. That's what a conscious being does.

Why then would that not also be true of religion? Religion is simply an attempt to understand the deeper meaning of life itself and one's place in life...therefore it is just as mysterious and challenging AS life itself is, and just as much subject to flux and change. It is through change that we grow to new and better understandings. It is through refusing to change that we become fossils and fanatics.

People make everything mean whatever they want it to mean, not just religion. They do it with politics, culture, history, art, sexual practices, you name it. That's the way people are. And it's perfectly normal.

"My" god (as you rather oddly put it) cannot help but go with me, same as yours (meaning your general outlook on things) cannot help but go with you...the question is, are we flexible and willing to change our outlook when change is called for or are we not? Who are you more comfortable around? A rigid fanatic (of any stripe whatsoever) who refuses to change any past belief? Or someone who is willing and open to change?

If Christians had never been willing to change, they would still be burning thousands of so-called "heretics" at the stake. If Jews had never been willing to change, they would still be making burnt offerings (of dead animals) to Yahweh when they prayed and stoning people for adultery.

Aren't you a bit glad then that we are "constantly in flux and changing" instead of repeating the same old ancient stuff we did a few hundred or a few thousand years ago? This is NOT an indication of weakness, it's an indication of flexibility, adaptability, and strength.

Subject: RE: BS: Putin stands up for Christianity!
From: GUEST,Tunesmith
Date: 19 Aug 12 - 03:53 AM

But why have Christians changed?
What has changed, to make them change?
Mankind's greater understanding of how the universe works has changed the way lots of us view life and the universe.
But, again, I will ask, what has changed to make Christians - for example - change their views?
Scientists can now show us a universe that doesn't need a God for it to work.
But, sciencist and historians can also show us how - and why - man invented Gods.
We can look at primitve man and see that Gods were his way of explaining - at the time - the unexplainable.
For example, if a similar tsunami that hit Japan last year, had happened in ancient times, then man would have probably seen it as the wrath of God and set about sacrificing a few virgins.
Now, to my knowledge, no virgins were sacrificed in Japan last year.
Why? Because we now know that God had nothing to do with it!
Indeed, we should, by now, have all realised that God has nothing to do with anything!

Subject: RE: BS: Putin stands up for Christianity!
From: GUEST,Musket sans cookie
Date: 19 Aug 12 - 04:05 AM

LH

How can I take the piss when you keep rumbling me!

Yeah, we call it soccer too, as the term originates as a shortening of Association Football, the full title still used by pedants with dodgy beards and Volvo cars. We don't have another sport of the same name to confuse things by though, hence the more usual term football.

Just been thinking about my stance that to accept god you need to understand the concept. That precludes far too many coins in the collection for the leaders of religions to accept ....

Subject: RE: BS: Putin stands up for Christianity!
From: GUEST,999
Date: 19 Aug 12 - 03:32 PM

The top 3 attributes of GOD. What would they be?

Subject: RE: BS: Putin stands up for Christianity!
From: akenaton
Date: 19 Aug 12 - 04:43 PM

Whether you wish to admit it or not Musket, we all have a god...and our god dictates in large measure what sort of people we are.
I know many whos god is money, some whos god is power, some see the approval of their peers as godly.
Many are just "good" people they carry godliness within them.

Personally I see god as the inspiration we feel when we read a verse, or some prose , or a song that brings the life force up to your skin, to the ends of your toes and to the very ends of the hairs on your head.

Its easy to over simplify and ridicule, but most people dont believe in an old man sitting on a cloud....thats just a way for ordinary people to come to terms with feelings....and insecurities that they do not adequately understand.

Subject: RE: BS: Putin stands up for Christianity!
From: akenaton
Date: 19 Aug 12 - 04:49 PM

Poem...... After All

The brooding ghosts of Australian night have gone from the bush and town;
My spirit revives in the morning breeze,
though it died when the sun went down;
The river is high and the stream is strong,
and the grass is green and tall,
And I fain would think that this world of ours is a good world after all.

The light of passion in dreamy eyes, and a page of truth well read,
The glorious thrill in a heart grown cold of the spirit I thought was dead,
A song that goes to a comrade's heart, and a tear of pride let fall --
And my soul is strong! and the world to me is a grand world after all!

Let our enemies go by their old dull tracks,
and theirs be the fault or shame
(The man is bitter against the world who has only himself to blame);
Let the darkest side of the past be dark, and only the good recall;
For I must believe that the world, my dear, is a kind world after all.

It well may be that I saw too plain, and it may be I was blind;
But I'll keep my face to the dawning light,
though the devil may stand behind!
Though the devil may stand behind my back, I'll not see his shadow fall,
But read the signs in the morning stars of a good world after all.

Rest, for your eyes are weary, girl -- you have driven the worst away --
The ghost of the man that I might have been is gone from my heart to-day;
We'll live for life and the best it brings till our twilight shadows fall;
My heart grows brave, and the world, my girl, is a good world after all.


Henry Lawson