Can a pop song become traditional?

Subject: RE: Can a pop song become traditional?
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Dec 15 - 09:37 AM

"Remind me, how long have you been on the scene?" -Jim Carroll, a few posts above.

Looks like "you people" read Jim's posts even if his own recollection gets fuzzy. Didn't you learn "you people" from sitting on Keith's knee?

Subject: RE: Can a pop song become traditional?
From: GUEST,Howard Jones
Date: 01 Dec 15 - 09:00 AM

We have been over this time and again. Firstly, it is impossible to define any genre of music, the best you can get is some kind of yardstick to compare it with and see which is the nearest fit.

This is not a question about music but about language. Language, especially English, is flexible and a word can have different meanings or nuances of meaning depending on the context. In general speech "folk music" has a far wider meaning and is used to encompass almost any acoustic music. We may not find that very helpful, but that is how people use the word.

"Traditional" also may have a wider meaning in general speech. We talk of "traditional" Christmas carols, but many of them are not traditional in the sense we use the word on here, and many have known and acknowledged composers. Likewise it may be "traditional" to sing "You'll never walk alone" at football matches, but that doesn't necessarily make it a folk song.

In any specialist discussion group where the differences are more relevant, not to say more important, we can expect words to be used in a more precise manner. Every specialism needs its own jargon. What I find continually disappointing that on Mudcat we still seem to be unable to agree how to use words in a more precise, technical manner.

There are a number of reasons for this, whether it is Jim's refusal to acknowledge that language has changed and "folk" is no longer synonymous with "traditional", those who reject or sneer at the 1954 definition (failing to understand that it isn't a definition at all, merely a yardstick). or those who have a vested interest in having their own compositions recognised within an accepted genre. There is also the difference between American and British usage, along with different cultural assumptions. Nevertheless, it would make discussions easier if we could agree on a shared terminology, and might avoid these interminable and unresolvable "What is folk?" trheads.

Subject: RE: Can a pop song become traditional?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Dec 15 - 08:36 AM

"I bet you arguing about the definition could clear a room full of folkies quicker than my singing."
Some people get pleasure from arguing, some from singing, some from just listening - I'm lucky to enjoy all three.
There seems to be a disturbing (I find it disturbing) tendency to argue that we shouldn't think about, discuss, or seek to learn about the music we're involved in.
Irish singing has it's problems at present, but a couple of weks ago we spent an extremely enjoyable two days at Limerick Uni at a traditional song conference.
Some of the best and most skillful singing there came from young lecturers and students who could sing the socks off most of the singers I've heard from the U.K. in a long time - they loved the songs well enough to make a good job of them and knew about them - a magic combination.   
The highlight of the trip was in the students bar on Tuesday night.
Crammed full of young people who had nothing to do with the conference, we were told that we wouldn't get enough attention for a session, but when somebody started to sing - complete attention for two and a half hours.
When the bystanders were asked to sing, we got eight young people, four from Ireland, two from Europe, a Mexican and a Brazilian - all singing traditional from their home place songs well.
Folk song proper no longer has a relevance - not in my experience.
Anybody who has any doubt about youngsters getting involved in traditional singing should try the Sunday night singing sessions at The Cobblestone in Smithfield, Dublin - youngsters singing with the enthusiasm and skill that first brought me into the revival.
While evenings like that happen, I'll keep arguing, if it's all right with you.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Can a pop song become traditional?
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 01 Dec 15 - 08:07 AM

Tell you something Jim, I bet you arguing about the definition could clear a room full of folkies quicker than my singing.

Subject: RE: Can a pop song become traditional?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Dec 15 - 07:56 AM

"Lovely to see Jim reckoning if you haven't been around as long as him your opinion is shit.
Never said that not do I believe it
Why do you people have to be son incredibly dishonest and nasty?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Can a pop song become traditional?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 01 Dec 15 - 07:44 AM

Returning to topic of the thread:— Is it not at least arguable that certain songs which started life as copyrighted pop songs have become traditional by being traditionally used on specific occasions? Two examples which spring to mind are "Happy birthday to you" [see wiki entry -- apparently, according to some authorities, its © will not expire till next year]; and Liverpool FC's supporters' anthem "You'll never walk alone" which began life in a Rodgers & Hammerstein musical but whose title now surmounts the entrance to Liverpool's Anfield Stadium.

≈M≈

Subject: RE: Can a pop song become traditional?
From: GUEST,Stuart Estell
Date: 01 Dec 15 - 07:28 AM

I'm reminded of something that was once said to me in a totally different context, discussing the taxonomy of plants: "the plants don't know what species they are."

The main disadvantage of the broad way in which "folk" is used from my perspective is that it means that if I crack open something like Spotify and search by genre I end up hearing lots of stuff in which I have no interest at all.

But as long as somebody waters the plants, we'll be fine.

Subject: RE: Can a pop song become traditional?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 01 Dec 15 - 07:15 AM

Using 'pedant' as a derisory or pejorative term — how pathetic! I should have expected better of the likes of Dick.

One of those irregular verbs, innit: "I am accurate; you try to get things right; he is a pedant".

The greatest compliment ever paid me on a forum was the assertion "MGM your pedantry is legendary". Long may it remain so; and if Dick wants to make it a sneerful occasion, then I hope it keeps fine for him.

≈MGM≈
MA, FRSA, OLP*≈


*Official Legendary Pedant

Subject: RE: Can a pop song become traditional?
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 01 Dec 15 - 07:14 AM

I do keep looking in on this thread for a giggle.

PFR - Brilliant idea. I'm off to write some stinking bishop for the folk club I am at tonight.

Lovely to see Jim reckoning if you haven't been around as long as him your opinion is shit. Do back off Jim. Your knowledge of your small section of folk is quite good as far as it goes but you do yourself no favours judging the wonderful wide genre of folk by it.

If I thought people would enjoy my own modest contributions more by wearing my trousers up to my tits I would do so. Mind you, a mate said I was living the dream by wearing a waistcoat on stage whereas to be fair, it was there to a) disguise the beer gut and b) handy little pockets for finger picks, capo etc.

I haven't laughed so much since a certain "living the dream" announced at a festival that the next song was one that he learned at his mother's knee. Then proceeded to sing a John Connolly song.....

Luckily, I am heartened by the exciting revival in folk and roots music by a much younger generation. Even only last night at a club, the highlight for me was a young lady in her early '20s singing wonderful interpretations of a few traditional songs plus a couple of her own compositions. Living folk, if you ask me.

Subject: RE: Can a pop song become traditional?
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 01 Dec 15 - 07:12 AM

I prefer strong mature Cheddar - it's definitely my favourite.

But then I'm Scrumpyshire born and bred...

My forbears would have most likely been dotted around lying cidered up behind hedges within a 20 mile radius
of where Sharp was cycling around bothering the yokels... 😜

Blimey.. now wouldn't it be weird if I had a blood link back to one of the singers he pestered...

That's only just occurred to me...????

Subject: RE: Can a pop song become traditional?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Dec 15 - 06:10 AM

"If a definition of folk has been researched for over a century, it wasn't well documented or promoted. "
Remind me - how long you've been on the scene?
Of course it was well documented and promoted
Sharp published his 'English Folk songs, Some Conclusions' in 1907 - the Folk Song Journal had come into existence 8 years earlier.
He published his Somerset and Appalachian collection and got folk songs put into schools - we were intoning Early One Morning and Oh No John in the 1950s.
His colleagues, Lucy Broadwood, Frank Kidson and others were publishing collections - folk songs all - no equivocation.
There was a landslide of works both collections and scholarly works on folk song throughout the first half of the 20th century in England and Scotland and particularly in America
By the fifties there was no doubt whatever what folk song meant - them the BBC mounted a huge collecting project in thee early 1950s and broadcast it in a series of progremmes 'As I Roved Out'
Similar things wee happening in Ireland with Ciarán Mac Mathúna's broadcasts.
There was ever a doubt what folk or traditional meant.
The deliberately generated fog spread about by interested parties is a relatively new thing - it helped **** up the folk scene, and now, it appears there are some among us who would have it do the same for research.
"Millions of people on the planet have in their heads what they consider to be folk. " I very much doubt it, but if there are, you are not among them as you haven't been able to produce a description of what you mean by folk so far other than "whatever I choose to call folk" - that seems to sum sum up the present 'definition'.
" I really don't see why we can't do the same with 'Folk Song'."
Fair enough Brian - but again, that doesn't seem to be what is happening here.
The amount of aggression, insulting behaviour and contempt for the old singers and their songs indicates a hostile takeover by people who neither know about nor care for folk/traditional song.
That takeover has affected the club scene adversely and it certainly doesn't bode well for the future of song.
I can only point again to what's happened in Ireland, where, simply by identifying what me mean and centering our attention on it, it's future has been guaranteed for at least another two generations.
Can't see why we should abandon that chance for a small group of people who can't even scratch together an alternative explanation that enough support to make it a definition.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Can a pop song become traditional?
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 01 Dec 15 - 05:19 AM

I have to say Jim that in the late 70's early 80's in Manchester the folk club scene was vibrant.

One possible cause of it's later fall from grace might well have been the several people sitting room a table like Ena Sharples, Martha Longhurst, Minnie Caldwell and Albert Tatlock bemoaning the plight of the 1954 definition.

Just a thought.

Subject: RE: Can a pop song become traditional?
From: Brian Peters
Date: 01 Dec 15 - 04:47 AM

I'm with Steve and PFR here. After all, if you look up 'Ballad' you get definitions as varied as:

1. Any light, simple song, especially one of sentimental or romantic character, having two or more stanzas all sung to the same melody.
2. A simple narrative poem of folk origin, composed in short stanzas and adapted for singing.
3. Any poem written in similar style.
4. The music for a ballad.
5. A sentimental or romantic popular song.

(Pasted from an online site, but my fat old OED lists a similar range of meanings)

If Jim, Steve and I are capable of sifting those and realising that the kind of ballad we're interested in is #2, I really don't see why we can't do the same with 'Folk Song'. Personally I think the old (1954 if you insist, yawn) definition is more coherent than "something sounding vaguely like a traditional song", "something sung to an acoustic guitar" or "something performed in a folk club", but dictionaries define words according to contemporary usage.

Subject: RE: Can a pop song become traditional?
From: The Sandman
Date: 01 Dec 15 - 04:46 AM

What has become evident is that Jim Carroll is a pedant who refuses to answer question and to quote Denis Healey a silly billy.

Subject: RE: Can a pop song become traditional?
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 01 Dec 15 - 04:07 AM

If Music = Cheese

Trad Folk = Mature Cheddar

Contemporary Folk = Mild Cheddar

Dairylea Cheesy Cheddar Spread should = Folk flavoured Pop music....


Easy.... That took me lesss than 5 minutes..


Next we can consider the relationship of Scottish, Irish and Welsh Cheddars to this newly forming definition = Celtic Cheddar ???

... New Zealand and other International World Cheddars.

... and Vegan Dairy Free Cheddar which might = Electro Folk and other experimental & extreme modern variations....

Also this definition will need to account for the odd awkward bugger who tries to melt Cheddar with Stilton or Danish Blue,
or even worse any of the boring bland cheeses....

Nobody likes Jazz Funk or Smooth Jazz Cheese !!!


... and the odd perverse fans of Stinking Bishop and Limburger can just eff right off.... 😜


If the Courier delivering my new midi keyboard hasn't arrived before mid day..
I might tackle Euro Folk Metal cheese just out of sheer bordom....

Subject: RE: Can a pop song become traditional?
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Dec 15 - 03:57 AM

If a definition of folk has been researched for over a century, it wasn't well documented or promoted.

Millions of people on the planet have in their heads what they consider to be folk. That's a million different subjective ideas.

Ditto pop. (and then some)

I can't tell Jim Carroll what is folk any more than he can keep trying to say I and others are wrong.

If baroque, chamber, orchestral, opera, piano, string quartet, new age, madrigal, blah blah can all fit into classical without anyone cocking their rifles, then traditional (whatever that means) can be a form of folk, not THE form.

It isn't hard. It just means getting out more and starting to enjoy music.

Subject: RE: Can a pop song become traditional?
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 01 Dec 15 - 03:12 AM

Folk music is what pedants want it to be. The rest of us don't care!!!!!!!!!!!!

Subject: RE: Can a pop song become traditional?
From: GUEST,Allan Conn
Date: 01 Dec 15 - 02:59 AM

The classical music definition above makes kind of sense in that it recognises that even within the classical tradition the meaning of 'classical music' has more than one meaning. One more encompassing meaning and one more specific meaning.

It would make sense for a folk/traditional definition to likewise point out that there are different meanings. Even looking at it from a specifically Scottish perspective it seems clear that even though we know what the 1954 definition specifically means there is a significant canon of Scottish tunes and songs that the vast bulk of performers and listeners would regard as folk music but doesn't neatly fit into the said definition. Not really talking about pop music as much as generally composed fiddle tunes and composed songs from Burns' day up until modern times.

So yes I can say that I listen to classical music and know what I mean by that - and then I also know that Mozart is of the more specific classical period whilst Mahler is not! I live with that quite easily. Likewise I also know what is meant by a specifically folk/traditional song/tune - but I also know that there is a much larger canon of work thought of as folk or traditional music. Words have more than one narrow specific definition. It seems rallying against that after half a century or so is kind of spitting into the wind.

Subject: RE: Can a pop song become traditional?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 Nov 15 - 06:58 PM

Is your definition documented anywhere Steve - does it have a following, where can I go to get information on it or, if   if someone were to ask where they can learnn about it, which direction do I point them, how does 'Delilah' or all the other pop songs that have bee mentioned here (or don't the people who wish to call those pop songs have a say in the matter), or is it something you have knocked up for your own personal use - oh sorry - you just said you did - in 10 minutes.
Well done - it took around 55 years for the IFMC to come up with theirs.
Come ooooonnnn Steve - you can you claim to be a researcher and think you can redefine folk music in 10 minutes.
This just underlines the ludicrousness of the situation existing in the revival as it stands today.
If language means so little that anybody can adapt it for their own personal use we may as well all become hermits and talk to the mirror.
And where does the music I have come to understand as Folk/traditional stand with your personal definition - how do I tell someone who asks that they have to include Blue Suede Shoes in their definition - or have they got to work out a definition for themselves?
The clubs bombed because your 'anything goes' attitude took a hold in sometime in the late 70s, early 80s when it was not just possible to go into a folk club and not hear a folk song (in fact, you could no longer expect any typee of song from a folk club), but it became the norm.
I really would hate to see that happen in the fiel;d of research.
Far from "folk" or "tradition" being a "short" summary of a type of music, it's an extremely well researched and documented genre.
I'm in the process of digitising my vinyl and cassette albums at present - not done a full count yet, but there must be around.... what.... 800 of them from Britain, Ireland, America, Canada, Europe (East and West), Asia, Africa.... all more or less fitting the description I know to have been in use since William Thoms came up withe the term'Folk' in 1846 - ten minutes - wow!!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Can a pop song become traditional?
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 30 Nov 15 - 06:22 PM

Here you are, Jim. Knocked this up in about 10 minutes.

Folk Music: Often based on traditional folk music but since the 50s and the start of the second revival the term has gradually acquired a much wider meaning to include music written and composed by members of the revival. Today any music written in the style of traditional folk music or that uses acoustic instruments like the guitar and concertina is generally accepted as folk music.

This wider meaning came to the British Isles from America where it had increasingly been used since the 1920s. Skiffle and American folk music suddenly blossomed in the British Isles after WWII and this sparked an interest in British folk music as well as imitation of American contemporary folk music. It was pioneered over here by such artistes as Bert Lloyd, Ewan MacColl, Martin Carthy, The Spinners and The Watersons. Alongside the increasing interest in traditional folk music many artistes began writing their own material. Once Tin pan Alley saw the commercial potential it began to spread to a much wider audience and the genre was crossed with other genres such as rock music.

There you go. We won't all agree on that but it's as good as your dictionary definition of classical music.

Subject: RE: Can a pop song become traditional?
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 30 Nov 15 - 05:15 PM

'This one, From the Oxford English Reference Dictionary suits me as as well as ANY Steve:'

Precisely, 'as well as any'. It's not a definition, it's a short summary of descriptors and look in another dictionary or encyclopedia and you'll find differences.

When I've a bit more time tomorrow I'll write you out a description of folk music that corresponds pretty much with what you have there.

Subject: RE: Can a pop song become traditional?
From: The Sandman
Date: 30 Nov 15 - 03:19 PM

"I've always been fascinated to learn why people who don't like or understand something feel the urge to destroy it - any ideas?"   Something you seem intent on doing when it comes to the UK Folk Revival, when are you going to give credit to Peter Bellamy and others from the UK Folk Revival, who Helped Walter get his family songs better known.

Subject: RE: Can a pop song become traditional?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 Nov 15 - 03:03 PM

"Can you find me please a cast-iron definition of classical music?"
This one, From the Oxford English Reference Dictionary suits me as as well as any Steve:
"Classical Music n. serious or conventional music following long-established principles rather than a folk, jazz, or popular tradition. It is associated with acoustic instruments, in particular the orchestra, and the sonata form; however, modern experimental composers such as Karlheinz Stockhausen and John Cage, using electronic instruments and other devices, are generally considered to be working within classical music. The term is used more specifically with reference to music written c.1750-1800, as opposed to baroque and romantic music, and is exemplified by'-the work of Haydn, Mozart, and the young Beethoven. During this period the orchestra, the chamber group, and the various compositional forms such as symphony, concerto, and sonata became standardized."
If there are divergences from this, they are by sufficient numbers of people in agreement to make them contenders , which is not the case here, which amounts to a handful of folkies making a U.D.I. on their own behalf yet being unable to agree among themselves what they mean by "folk" or "tradition".
If the compiler can distinguish between other forms of music, as he/she does, why shouldn't we?
You appear not to wish to respond to my point - we are not being asked to accept another definition, but to abandon the one we have for nothing.
If you are prepared o do that, I am not.
If there is a wider meaning, what is it?
So far, the answer is the Humpty Dumpty one - "it is what I choos itr to be".
'54 is a bit of a red herring - I never use it other than to someone who wishes to delve deeper a starting point.
When these arguments started I had to drag down Bert Lloyd's book to remind me what it was - don't think I'd read it since I first bought the book in 1967   
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Can a pop song become traditional?
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 30 Nov 15 - 02:38 PM

Jim,
Can you find me please a cast-iron definition of classical music?

All of the people who I know who write about folk song, and it's rather a lot, know exactly what the 54 definition is, and use it regularly as I do. None of us have a problem with using that definition or using the much wider meaning when we need to. We manage to communicate with each other on a regular basis and have very few if any arguments on the matter. Why can't you just ignore the few largely anonymous trolls here who trying to bait you?

Subject: RE: Can a pop song become traditional?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 Nov 15 - 02:38 PM

"If they use these new fangled pencils to write down the words, it isn't folk. It must be a quill or it fails the 1854 interpretation. "
Nope, but I suppose it gives you some sort of perverse satisfaction to put up something nobody has said - which reinforces my point.
Most people never come into any form of folk and those that do no longer have a consensus of what it is.
I assume the "1854" is an attempt at satie - on second thought - maybe not!
"To Jim Carroll it's something to do with Walter Pardon. "
More distortion of what has been said - not doing too well, are you?
Your claim isn't reflected in increased audiences or popularity, whereas in Ireland, thousands of youngsters are flocking to what they know to be traditional - a lesson in that somewhere.
Which can now mean anything from Beethoven to Barbra Streisand - not very workable as a definition, doncha think?
"By the way, when you reach the impossible consensus on what folk is," the nearest thing we have to a consensus is the the current definition which has been fully researched and documented for over a century - perfectly possible to all but those who don't actually like folk music.
I've always been fascinated to learn why people who don't like or understand something feel the urge to destroy it - any ideas?
Thanks for the ray of sunshine Vic.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Can a pop song become traditional?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 30 Nov 15 - 02:04 PM

Jim -- Have as requested PM'd my current e-address to you.

≈M≈

Subject: RE: Can a pop song become traditional?
From: The Sandman
Date: 30 Nov 15 - 02:01 PM

"This analogy held good for traditional song and music for millennia. I remember Mike Seeger saying that you don't have to go that far back in time to reach the days when the only way you could hear a song or tune was if that performer was in the room with you."
Now, one can have many performers in the room through the use of the computer.

Subject: RE: Can a pop song become traditional?
From: GUEST,Anne Neilson
Date: 30 Nov 15 - 01:59 PM

To answer the original question -- probably not, 'in my life-time' IMHO.

To address some of the more recent concerns, I'm very aware of the current wrangling about the introduction of source singers to the scene. Maybe we were luckier in Scotland (perhaps because we are a smaller community) but when the Folk Revival hit us in the early '50's, I imagine it as a great gift from a very knowledgeable Santa Claus!

My English teacher in 1956 was Norman Buchan (later a Labour MP and author of two significant books of traditional Scottish song). Norman had been involved politically with the people who put together The People's Festival in Edinburgh in 1951, as an antidote to the over-priced and 'high culture fixated' official Festival -- and during that event, he was in the audience for the first People's Festival Ceilidh which was put on by Hamish Henderson.

Hamish had begun to collect songs for what became The School of Scottish Studies (in Edinburgh University) and, as was his wont, generously shared his recorded material with other enthusiasts -- so, when Norman started his Ballads Club in Rutherglen Academy in 1957, we had access to recordings of source singers like Jimmy McBeath, Jeannie Robertson, Lucy Stewart et al along with Pete Seeger, The Weavers etc.
Our club members sang a great range of songs -- from The Twa Corbies via The Bleacher Lassie o Kelvinhaugh to Rothesay Oh, and as we approached the 60's we added We Shall Overcome, Blowing in the Wind and Can't Help But Wonder Where I'm Bound.

But the point is that I think all the Club members knew the difference between a song like The Plooman Laddies and Masters of War -- in terms of their origins. And there was also an acknowledgement of the skill of a maker in creating a new song that spoke to current concerns. (I remember the impact of Tom Paxton's Vietnam songs 'Lyndon Johnston told the Nation' and - specifically - 'Jimmy Newman')

So, my bottom line is that a traditional song (handed down orally etc.) is a special thing, particularly when it has come from performers of the calibre of Jeannie Robertson etc. -- but there is no bar to another song becoming equally significant….

Provided it has significant emotional content, narrative strength and appropriate melody.

(I'll be interested to hear proposals)

Subject: RE: Can a pop song become traditional?
From: Vic Smith
Date: 30 Nov 15 - 01:12 PM

My point is, and always has been that the people as a whole no longer play a part in the creation and dissemination - it is no more 'ours' than a tin of processed peas bought at Sainsburys
Our only role is as a customer.

It could be that - against expectations - that we are getting somewhere. A real difference is in the commodification of pop music. A pop song is presented by the music industry as the finished object with the recording, the image, the video etc. all bundled to make the complete commodity. This has led to the the proliferation of 'tribute' bands who try their damnest to reproduce the product by attempting to be as close a clone of the original as they can manage.

With performance of a traditional song and tunes, it has always seemed to me that there are three planes operating and I always try to use as an analogy - three dimensions.
One plane is the song or tune itself.
A second plane is the performance that the current performer learned from.
The third plane is what the current performer brings to it.

This analogy held good for traditional song and music for millennia. I remember Mike Seeger saying that you don't have to go that far back in time to reach the days when the only way you could hear a song or tune was if that performer was in the room with you.

From the time when the printed word became widespread, the situation has become more complex. These complexities mean that unless a basis for the parameters of any discussion can be agreed then all you are likely to get is circumlocution - and I'm afraid that is what has happened in this long thread.

Subject: RE: Can a pop song become traditional?
From: GUEST
Date: 30 Nov 15 - 12:47 PM

If they use these new fangled pencils to write down the words, it isn't folk. It must be a quill or it fails the 1854 interpretation.

Any idea how silly the debate is? Meanwhile, most people (and especially I'm glad to say an increasing young set of performers and audience) know what they mean when you say folk. To Jim Carroll it's something to do with Walter Pardon. To many in The USA it's something to do with Joan Baez. To many in The UK it's whatever you listened to in folk clubs over the years.

But it's folk all to to with one opinion over any other.

By the way, when you reach the impossible consensus on what folk is, the thread asks you consider it against pop music. What does that mean? (I'll check back in ten years.)

Subject: RE: Can a pop song become traditional?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 Nov 15 - 12:28 PM

"It's not like the 'masses' are attached by drip feed to their PCs, phones, tellys and radios.."
Aren't they - hmmm?
My point is, and always has been that the people as a whole no longer play a part in the creation and dissemination - it is no more 'ours' than a tin of processed peas bought at Sainsburys
Our only role is as a customer
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Can a pop song become traditional?
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 30 Nov 15 - 12:16 PM

The thing about passive reception is, just how passive...???

It's not like the 'masses' are attached by drip feed to their PCs, phones, tellys and radios...
Even though it might appear so in some folk's worst nightmare's....

..and experience shows that performing rights taxes are of little concern and completely ignored
in most day to day musical interactions...

..and again, folk clubs aren't the be all and end all to a lot of us out here...

But I understand & appreciate your history and prioritising of them.

Subject: RE: Can a pop song become traditional?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 Nov 15 - 11:51 AM

"As we've said many times before, not everything is easily definable."
It has a clar enough definition - I've always found it workable as a rule-of-thumb.
Of course there are overlaps - but again, that is not what is being discussed here -
What is being suggested that the existing definition is no longer valid and must be abandon and replaced with - well, nothing really - and this by a tiny handful of self- interested people - you really should know as a researcher that that is nonsense and should it ever become accepted practice all the accumulated knowledge of our music would be meaningless - you`only need look at the damage to the club scene to see what can happen.
People need to say why such and such a song is folk - so far, it doesn't amount to a minuscule number of people saying "because I say it is" no rationale or even attempt at rational.
We already fave to pay performing rights taxes to put on an listen to what is supposed to be in the public domain - do you never wonder how much it would cost to run a club where Beatles (or Tom Jones Punkie) numbers are the order of the day.
As for folk ever being accepted as "the people's music" - forget that pipe-dream.
If we had a living, thriving tradition, there may be a point to all this, but our popular culture today is a passively received one, not a participatory one - deliberately so, because it is now a major industry.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Can a pop song become traditional?
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 30 Nov 15 - 11:16 AM

According to my mrs, and a huge number of the rest of them from the country she comes from..

Tom Jones's "Delilah" is well on it's way to becoming a 'traditional' song, if not even an unofficial national anthem... 😜

Subject: RE: Can a pop song become traditional?
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 30 Nov 15 - 10:43 AM

Jim,
As we've said many times before, not everything is easily definable. Most, probably all genres, music/literature etc. have numerous overlaps into other genres. That doesn't invalidate them. At best they can only have loose descriptors. If you wish I'm sure we could come up with a long list of these loose descriptors for 'folk music' but it would make this already too long thread twice as long.

Subject: RE: Can a pop song become traditional?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 Nov 15 - 09:42 AM

Mike
Have tried to post to you but the e-mail address I have bounced
Can you let me have the correct one - PM or e-mail (I think you have mine)
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Can a pop song become traditional?
From: The Sandman
Date: 30 Nov 15 - 08:40 AM

do nt be ridiculous,,Icertainly do credit and give importance to tradtional singers who put this clip up here about Walter When are you going to acknowledge the importance of Peter Bellamy and the UK FOLK REVIVAL IN ALL THIS?

Subject: RE: Can a pop song become traditional?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 Nov 15 - 08:10 AM

Not really interested in your trolling inanities Dick - you obviously are not prepared to credit our traditional singers with their contribution - as you have made perfectly clear in the past
Nor am I interested in your ongoing insulting behaviour towards anybody who disagrees with you - please take it elsewhere.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Can a pop song become traditional?
From: The Sandman
Date: 30 Nov 15 - 07:43 AM

Walters songs   were promoted by people from the uk folk revival the Godbolds, Peter Bellamy etc. He was encouraged to appear at festival and folk clubs by members of the uk folk revival., it is about time you credited those people who promoted and saved those songs, yes we all know walter saved them originally, but the people interested in those songs were people from the uk folk revival, they encouraged walter to sing out and put the songs in circulation to more people.
whether he was the greatest traditional singer is arguable, personally i prefer the singing and repertoire of Harry Cox, but that is personal opinion, just the same as you have a different opinion.
Roger Dixon clearly states that he knew a couple of the songs, check out from 8 40 to 913 onwards,
Roger also states that Walter realised that when he died that all the songs that he knew that had been handed on from his family that those songs would die with him , Roger then says that he knew one or two of them, HE SUGGESTED TO WALTER TO PUT THEM ON REEL TO REEL.and that Roger would take them to UK Folk Revialist Peter Bellamy, clear your ears out, or listen again, you inattentive person.Roger then goes on to say how Peter Bellamy forced his hand., by saying that he would arrive by train on a particular day
Start Listening and start giving credit to Peter Bellamy you miserable old curmudgeon

Subject: RE: Can a pop song become traditional?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 30 Nov 15 - 07:21 AM

Ah, yes, thank you Jim. I have some memory coming back to me, of Pete's mentioning he had met Walter thru some somewhat circuitous rout via an art school connection. Many thanks.
Thanks for offer to post your article on Walter; should be very interested to see it, as I am sure would be many.

≈M≈

Subject: RE: Can a pop song become traditional?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 Nov 15 - 05:11 AM

At college (presumably art) Mike - he had nothing whatever to do with the folk scene.
His uncle Hubert, Walter's cousin, was a near neighbour of Walter's, living a couple of doors down the lane from him.
We met him on several occasions - a nice man; as far as we know, he didn't have any songs.
I think the information is on the sleeve notes of one of the Leader records.
I'd be happy to let you have the article we wrote on Walter, "A Simple Countryman?' (note the question-mark) for the Tom Munnelly Festschrift, if it's of any interest - goes for anybody of course.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Can a pop song become traditional?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 30 Nov 15 - 04:46 AM

Jim -- When you write that Roger Dixon "was Peter Bellamy's tutor and was aware of Peter's interest in the old songs", in what sense his 'tutor'? At Art School? Or some sort of folk scene mentor? Or what? I don't recall Pete's ever having mentioned him to me.

Enlightenment, please...

≈M≈

Subject: RE: Can a pop song become traditional?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 Nov 15 - 03:07 AM

"so why was it that Walter never sang out? "
Walter was totally unaware of folk clubs; there was no singing in his area that he was aware of and hadn't been since he was a boy.

"Walter realised or was persuaded by Roger Dixon [ FROM THE UK FOLK REVIVAL]"
Wrong again, I'm afraid - Roger was not a part of the folk revival - still isn't as far as I'm aware. As I said - he was Peter Bellamy's tutor and was aware of Peter's interest in the old songs.

"none of this alters the fact that Walter sang the songs that his audience from the UK FOLK REVIVAL wanted to hear."
Nope again - he sang the songs he wanted the audience to hear that he had heard as a boy from his family; that is where his interest came from - certainly not from any revival.
He occasionally responded to requests, but he much preferred to come with a set list that he had worked on in advance – he thought the songs were worth it.
He had some of the longest songs I have heard from an English source singer, but in the 20 years we knew him I never remember him slipping up on the words in public (or anywhere else, for that matter) – not once.
Walter had a magnificent traditional repertoire; he sang them to himself at home long before he sang them in public - he sang them, memorised them, wrote them down.... in the 1940s because he liked them and thought them important - he didn't get an audience for them till the 1970s but he had known them all his life.
He wasn't a "performer" nor did he consider himself a singer - to him, the songs were worth saving so he saved them - he did that before he ever knew there was a folk scene and would have done if he had never found there was such thing as a folk club - pretty well the same as every traditional singer we've ever met - they all sang the songs irrespective of the outside world - it meant nothing to them as far as the songs went.

"ABOUT TIME YOU GAVE CREDIT TO THE UK folk revivalists WHO SAVED HIS SONGS."
What - are you mad?
He'd written them down in books and memorised the tunes long before the revival was a twinkle in anybody's eye - as did every other traditional singer.
The revival was a beneficiary of songs that had been kept alive by singers for centuries - if anybody can claim the credit for saving them; it's the Gavin Greigs, Cecil Sharps, Alan Lomaxes, the Tom Munnellys.... and all those who virtually saved them from dying off with the older generation of singers.
Some revival singers recognise the tremendous legacy they have been bequeathed, but quite often that gratitude is not accompanied by an understanding of the songs – as demonstrated by poor uninspired performances of them – and occasionally, a contempt is shown for both the songs and the singers – as on this thread.
The older singers owe us nothing, or nothing matching what we owe them – we owe them everything.
If anything, today's folk revival has done possibly irreparable damage to the future of our folk songs by having to ask stupid questions like "what is a folk song" at the same time as claiming to run "folk club", or mixing them with pop songs that have pleased listeners for a time then spat out like old chewing gum because they no longer please and have been replaced by the 'new – improved' model - breaching the trades description act or what?
Most of the singers who gave us our songs were past their prime technically, -some well past it, but they nearly all brought a depth of respect and understanding to them that is seldom reached by modern singers – a few, but not many: beautiful description of octogenarian, Phil Tanner's 'Banks of Sweet Primroses' sounding like "a young man going out first thing on a summer's morning looking for love".
Too many singers now "perform" their songs in order to "please" their audiences rather than allowing the songs to take over and dictate how they should be performed – that is not going to be helped by arguments that you only need to stand up and sing them – if they are going to work you need to feel them to, to get them to take you over.
Ewan and Peg once described Sam Larner singing a song he must have sung hundreds of times throughout his life as sounding as if he was discovering its beauty for the first time – I cannot remember a revival singer ever leaving me with that feeling.

"Mr Know Everything"
Once more – not in a thousand years.
What little I know I have learned from listening to others – in the last forty years, that has been the older generation of singers – they are the ones who held the key to these songs, and the somewhat distasteful contempt for them shown on this forum is not only ungracious, it's bloody stupid.
Those among us who think they know everything usually know nothing, and are very unlikely ever to ever to learn (too far up their own arses).
They are invariably the dullest and most unimaginative singers, no matter how technically proficient they are - the worst are usually the crowd-pleasers who try to be everything to everybody and end up pleasing none.   

"Would someone be willing to translate what he's going on about into three easy sentences, please?"
Take more than three sentences to do that I'm afraid, Modette.
I'm happy to talk to anybody, trolls and genuine enthusiasts alike, while I can talk about one of our best traditional singers (and happy to pass on everything we've ever written or found out about him) - but there comes a point when..... well, you know!!
Please don't go away.

"the word 'folk' has come to have a variety of meanings "
Still waiting to learn what it means to enough people to make it a definition Steve

Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Can a pop song become traditional?
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 29 Nov 15 - 04:16 PM

Dick,
The 54 definition is ONE very good definition that would be easily accepted and recognised by most of us here. Origins are irrelevant so there's no point bleating on about Music Hall. Walter's songs learnt from his own community orally all fit the definition perfectly. The word 'traditional' can be applied to a multitude of things. Anything that has a continuous past has its own traditions. If you use the word 'folk' in the same context as 'folklore' then its meaning is quite clear. Like most words in the English language the word 'folk' has come to have a variety of meanings when applied to music. The 54 definition is just one of them.

Subject: RE: Can a pop song become traditional?
From: The Sandman
Date: 29 Nov 15 - 02:25 PM

"The old engineers adage might suit here - please do not put the mouth in motion until the brain is fully engaged"
so why was it that Walter never sang out? come on answer MrKnow all
until the people from the UK folk revival [that you are always putting down] persuaded him to.
Give us an answer Mr know all Jim Carroll.
Walter realised or was prsuaded by Roger Dixon[ FROM THE UK FOLK REVIVAL] that the people most interested were the likes of Peter Bellamy AND SINGERS from the uk folk revival

none of this alters the fact that Walter sang the songs that his audience from the UK FOLK REVIVAL wanted to hear.
my other point is that Jim Bainbridge and Bob Davenport are doing what many traveller singers of traditional songs do, mix them up with other songs of different classifications,they sing songs on the basis of whether they think it is a good song not its classification
Audiences that go to hear those performers, expect that., in the same way they expected something different from Walter Pardon[ namely his family songs]
My next point is that if Walter had walked in to a working mens club and sang his songs in England,very few would have been interested, so much for the assertion that this is the music of working class people in England, unfortunately the vast majority prefer something else.
The last point is that if it had not been for Peter Bellamy and Roger Dixon and people interested in Trad music from the UK Folk revival, these songs would have been lost.
you are always running the UK Folk revival down ABOUT TIME YOU GAVE CREDIT TO THE UK folk revivalists WHO SAVED HIS SONGS.
come on then Jim define traditional songs, if you cannot shut up

Subject: RE: Can a pop song become traditional?
From: Brian Peters
Date: 29 Nov 15 - 02:09 PM

"Brian you say you know what traditional is, what is it, does it include pop songs or music hall songs"

Possibly. Depends on whether or not they got passed on down the generations. Like I said, Dick, the topic was fully discussed three years ago, and you can always scroll back through the thread.

Subject: RE: Can a pop song become traditional?
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 29 Nov 15 - 01:49 PM

Best song was called "Migs" - all about migrants!!!!!

Subject: RE: Can a pop song become traditional?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 Nov 15 - 01:29 PM

"Jim, can you define traditional?"
Course I can - can't you?
If not - plenty of books on the subject - 100s in fact
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Can a pop song become traditional?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 Nov 15 - 01:23 PM

"Walter had not sang out for many years because local people scorned his family songs,"
Wrong again on both counts.
Walter had nevre sung in public - not ever, until he was introduced to the folk revival.
He heard the songs sung as a boy at Christmas parties and harvest suppers - he sang only one song at them "Dark Eyed Sailor" "because nobody wanted that".
When he came back from the army in 1946, his Uncle Billy, the main source of his songs, had died, so he decided to gather the family songs together, write them down and memorise the tunes he remembered, by playing them on a melodeon.
His cousin's nephew, Roger Dixon, who was Peter Bellamy's tutor, was aware of them, and persuaded Walter top put them on tape - which he gave to Peter.
His first public singing outside the family was to Bill Leader.
His family never sang outside the home - at Christmas Parties and earlier, Harvest suppers, so they couldn't have stopped singing because the neighbours didn't like the songs.
One of the great surprises to Walter was that when the BBC came to North Walsham in the early fifties none of the surviving members of his family were recorded because the locals were not aware that they sang.
All this is a matter of record - in articles and radio programmes by Karl Dallas and Mike Yates, on radio and TV documentaries and on record sleeve notes.
Will you stop spouting "facts" that are grossly inaccurate and which you have no idea about.
We interviewed Walter extensively for twenty years - in his home and in ours.
Those interviews are in The British Library and in Dublin if you would like to verify what I say - all in Walter's own words.
The old engineers adage might suit here - please do not put the mouth in motion until the brain is fully engaged.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Can a pop song become traditional?
From: The Sandman
Date: 29 Nov 15 - 01:02 PM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B95JAQe1Wtc