Can a pop song become traditional?

Subject: RE: Can a pop song become traditional?
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 08 Sep 12 - 01:10 PM

I'm beginning to prefer the descriptive over the prescriptive as well, Jack.

Never heard your little ditty but it goes very well to 'College Hornpipe' tune (Sailor's HP)

Subject: RE: Can a pop song become traditional?
From: GUEST,Blandiver
Date: 07 Sep 12 - 01:01 PM

The only thing I'm wary of is The Rule, Michael - which isn't about to be proved by all these bally exceptions. And in urging a more descriptive approach to Folk Song, as oppose to a prescriptive one, then we might clarify the sort of thing that deserves to be classified as a Folk Song (Seeds of Love etc.) and those that obviously don't (Johnny B. Goode etc.), no matter how Traditional they might be otherwise (ICTM) as all musical idioms undoubtedly are.

Talking about babies and bathwater, I remember collecting this as a kid around the playground to a tune close to Glory, Glory, Hallelullia:

Whiter than the whitewash than the whitewash on the wall,
Whiter than the whitewash than the whitewash on the wall,
If you wash me in the water that you wash your dirty daughter,
I'll be whiter than the whitewash than the whitewash on the wall.

Ten years later I was singing it as part of Oh What a Lovely War (it's in the Metheun Script at least) and the producer was most fascinated to think how it got from the trenches of WW1 to the playgrounds of 1960s Northumberland.

Subject: RE: Can a pop song become traditional?
From: johncharles
Date: 07 Sep 12 - 12:35 PM

More wise words

Oh, your baby has gone down the plug hole Oh, your baby has gone down the plug
The poor little thing was so skinny and thin He should have been washed in a jug

Subject: RE: Can a pop song become traditional?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 07 Sep 12 - 11:52 AM

Yes yes, Blandy. But your persistence in this counter-everyone-and-everything vein which you affect is becoming tiresome and overdone. There is probably much truth in your urgings about the disingenuous factitiousness of much of 'the tradition'; & of the influence of lateC19/earlyC20 anthropologists determined to find what confirmed their theories; & of the selectiveness of the early collectors with their scorn for so much of their informants' repertoires and offerings which didn't meet their own predetermined criteria ~~~

Yes yes, we all know all that ~~~

But beware of going too much to the other extreme and denouncing absolutely any and every concept of 'the tradition' as non-existent, a con, an imposition on the national æsthetic ~~~

Remember the wise words of James Thurber in the moral to one of his Fables For Our Time -- "You might as well fall flat on your face as bend over too far backwards!" ~~

And just think of that poor baby in the bathwater.....

Best regards

~M~

Subject: RE: Can a pop song become traditional?
From: GUEST,Blandiver
Date: 07 Sep 12 - 11:21 AM

A folk song is one in which many have taken it up and found variants of it.

I can think of dozens of Folk Songs where this isn't the case.

Subject: RE: Can a pop song become traditional?
From: Stringsinger
Date: 07 Sep 12 - 11:10 AM

To complicate the matter, Barbara Allen became known from its source, a printed version in an old songbook. That suggests at one time it was popular, a pop song.

I think the argument is over whether songs sung by popular artists such as the Beatles
can be construed as folk songs.

In time, with variants, I think they can. But they have to be taken up by enough people to produce cultural variants, by which I mean they find themselves in a monolithic culture changed from the original version. Rock and roll is not a monolithic folk culture but a
genre of music engendered by the music industry and used as a label in recording stores
to sell that brand of music.

A folk song is one in which many have taken it up and found variants of it.
A good example would by the song "La Paloma" written by a Spanish composer
and disseminated in different forms all over the world. No one can dispute its
popularity in its original form.

Subject: RE: Can a pop song become traditional?
From: GUEST,CS
Date: 07 Sep 12 - 11:09 AM

"Regarding This Land Is Your Land, it has achieved international status whether you know the song or not."

I'm sure it's a well known song among folk enthusiasts. But not by "every schoolchild internationally" I'd be surprised if any schoolchild outside of a folk loving family in the US had so much as heard of it, or indeed most of the other songs you propose as modern folk songs. Really, Stringsinger, my intention isn't to be offensive in any way, honest, just realistic.

Subject: RE: Can a pop song become traditional?
From: Stringsinger
Date: 07 Sep 12 - 11:00 AM

Regarding This Land Is Your Land, it has achieved international status whether you know the song or not. Its roots are in the old Carter Family rendition of the spiritual, "When the World's on Fire".

Regarding Johnny I Hardly Knew Ya' it might have originated as an English Music Hall song as did Finnegan's Wake but both certainly are known throughout Ireland and that qualifies
it as a folk song, a song sung traditionally by Irish singers.

Subject: RE: Can a pop song become traditional?
From: GUEST,Blandiver
Date: 07 Sep 12 - 07:41 AM

I'd to think both Seeds of Love and Child #2 predate Frazer too, but whereas Shakespeare was quite deliberate in his Jacobean incantations, it's still a fancy rather than witch-lore per se. There's nothing to indicate that the makers of folk songs were being quite so self-consciously occult in the meaning of their imagery, much less that such a tradition exists as such beyond the usual medicinal associations of certain flora, a lot of which was still extant when I was kid & probably is today (dock for nettle stings, dandelions for a diurectic, comfrey for broken bones, hawthorn leaves as an appetite suppressant, etc etc). Is the riddling of Child #2 an indication of the occult I wonder? Or just two lovers being smart with each other - more Much Ado than Macbeth? As for Seeds of Love, the flora serves to euphemise a load of knob-gags.

Subject: RE: Can a pop song become traditional?
From: Will Fly
Date: 07 Sep 12 - 06:22 AM

No particular preference for the herbs inclusion, actually, Michael - I just always feel irritated by Paul Simon's version of the tune, which seems all tinkly-winkly to me, grumpy old toad that I am.

For me - and I'm never very interested in the origins of tunes, not being anything of a folklorist - the Dransfield's tune seems more rough-hewn and appealing than the better-know version. I believe that they heard it from a singer in a Bradford pub, but I wouldn't swear to that tale without going back to the record sleeve notes.

The song, as sung by the Dransfields, has a simplicity and bitterness about it. "Her? A true lover of mine again? Not a chance in hell!" But that's just my personal interpretation, you understand. And the violin accompaniment is wonderful.

Subject: RE: Can a pop song become traditional?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 07 Sep 12 - 06:19 AM

Macbeth's witches somewhat predated Frazer, Sean. Do you deny any tradition of magic potency of certain fauna & flora in witchcraft and spells?

~M~

(And I shall blaspheme all I like, but just you leave my liver alone!)

Subject: RE: Can a pop song become traditional?
From: GUEST,Blandiver
Date: 07 Sep 12 - 06:03 AM

Symbolic herbs, eh? Next you'll be telling us The Seeds of Love is a cunning occult concoction for an effective remedy for erectile dysfunction in the elderly folky. All sounds a tad Frazerian to me, Michael, but charming by way of Steamfolk, as these things invariably are.

Subject: RE: Can a pop song become traditional?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 07 Sep 12 - 05:32 AM

Meant to put a '?' after "by Ewan MacColl": not quite clear if he claimed to have collected it or not.

Robin Dransfield's version is OK, but an amalgam from various versions ~~ like the words sung by Sim & Garf for that matter, but not that sung by Ewan which appears to be Mr Anderson's version correctly reproduced. No indication where Robin got his tune from: another variant, or his own composition? I do not find his rendering preferable, myself: partly for the lack of a source for the tune, which doesn't strike me as a very interesting one, partly because I miss the symbolic herbs, as stated above; tho Will appears not to care for their inclusion. Why is that, I wonder, Will?

~M~

Subject: RE: Can a pop song become traditional?
From: GUEST,CS
Date: 07 Sep 12 - 05:30 AM

I don't know about Sringsinger's list, is he sure that the songs he lists are maintained outside of a particular generation of folkies? Perhaps they are in the US I wouldn't know, but I haven't heard half of them either in or outside folkie circles here in the UK. And I'd certainly never heard of "this land is your land" before joining Mudcat. I'm not even sure if I've ever heard anyone play it since then in fact.

As per below I was raised hearing Pink Floyd, the Rolling Stones and the Beatles played on acoustic guitars from "Fifty Greatest Rock Songs" compendiums.

Subject: RE: Can a pop song become traditional?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 07 Sep 12 - 05:15 AM

'Scarborough Fair' is in fact a version of Child #2, The Elfin Knight; specifically the 'Cambric Shirt' versions. The herbs are integral, as magic potions for the transformations &c demanded by the contestant-lovers in the ballad. 'Scarborough Fair' [the familiar tune & words] is the version collected [by Ewan MacColl ~ who simply states the version is "from the singing of..."] from Mr Mark Anderson, a retired lead miner of Middleton-in-Teasdale, Yorkshire, in 1947; sung by Ewan on The Long Harvest {Argo DA67, 1967}, having been previously included by him & Peggy Seeger in The Singing Island, London, Mills Music,1960.

~M~

Subject: RE: Can a pop song become traditional?
From: Will Fly
Date: 07 Sep 12 - 04:46 AM

Frank - just to nitpick slightly here:

"Scarborough Fair" is not a pop song which has become traditional - it's an old traditional song which has become popular. Paul Simon's version is essentially that of a version sung by Martin Carthy and then copyrighted by Simon.

As far as the song itself goes, I much prefer the alternative tune and words by the Dransfield Brothers, which they recorded on their "Rout Of The Blues" album in 1971. The tune (IMO) is more rugged, and the words dispense with the obligatory herbs - their version being far more down to earth than the pretty-pretty decoration of Simon's.

Subject: RE: Can a pop song become traditional?
From: GUEST,Don Wise
Date: 07 Sep 12 - 04:33 AM

Copyright is not eternal and if some people get their way could be very short lived.

"Johnny B.Good": I'd say that the Peter Tosh version certainly qualifies as a variant.

Subject: RE: Can a pop song become traditional?
From: GUEST,Stim
Date: 06 Sep 12 - 09:13 PM

I don't know about a Czech version of "Blue Eyes Cryin in the Rain", Stringsinger, but I know that the song has a life of it's own amongst American Serbs, many of whom believe it is a Serbian song, and sometimes translate it back to English as"In the rain, your blue eyes are filled with tears"--it is copyrighted, as well.

Subject: RE: Can a pop song become traditional?
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 06 Sep 12 - 08:22 PM

MikeGM-
It was about an Irish soldier, but it certainly wasn't Irish in origin. Read Jon Lighter's The Greatest Anti-War Song Ever Written. Fascinating, well researched read.
CAMSCO stocks it (and published it). Check camscomusic.com

Subject: RE: Can a pop song become traditional?
From: PoppaGator
Date: 06 Sep 12 - 01:31 PM

"Guest" of 04 Sep 12 - 05:48 PM, above, was me. THought I was logged in...

Subject: RE: Can a pop song become traditional?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 06 Sep 12 - 01:12 PM

Of course it was, Dick ~~ even if it used a tune and format from another tradition.

"Along the road to sweet Athy ..."

Athy is in Co Kildare.

~M~

Subject: RE: Can a pop song become traditional?
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 06 Sep 12 - 01:09 PM

Strinsinger-
I agree with "A folk song has to be sung by those who are outside the music business genre.A popular song can cross over. " as at least a portion of a definition of "folk" or "trad". Necessary, but not sufficient. In your list, though, only 2,3,4,5 and 10 were really "pop" songs.
Parenthetically, 7 (Johnny I hardly knew ye) was not of Irish origin.

Subject: RE: Can a pop song become traditional?
From: johncharles
Date: 06 Sep 12 - 12:56 PM

having just looked at the Bellowhead video thread it would seem a traditional song can become a pop song.
john

Subject: RE: Can a pop song become traditional?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 06 Sep 12 - 12:26 PM

Good list, SS, with which I should nor differ basically. But I don't think a 'bridge' built by a particular folksinger into a N England variant of Child #2 quite makes it a pop song; and I don't think a song extolling the area between "California the the New York Islands" will be quite as internationally known by children as you may fancy.

~M~

Subject: RE: Can a pop song become traditional?
From: Stringsinger
Date: 06 Sep 12 - 11:54 AM

A folk song has to be sung by those who are outside the music business genre.
A popular song can cross over. My nominations are:
1.   This Land Is Your Land (known by every school child internationally)
2.   Maybe Blue Eyes Cryin' in the Rain (since there's Czech version.
3.   Country Roads has gotten world wide recognition

4.   Old Dan Tucker was a walk-around cakewalk from Daniel Emmett on the New York Stage, popular in its time.
5.   Dixie also by Dan Emmett from New York stage stolen by a New Orleans publishing house emerging as a phony theme for the Confederate cause.
6.   Johnny I Hardly Knew Ya' from Irish with vaudeville roots.
7.   Songs by Joe Hill such as The Preacher and the Slave.
8.   Scarborough Fair (with a bridge written by Paul Simon
9.   We Shall Overcome (from the tobacco workers union in Tennesee with roots from Rev. Tinsley called I Will Overcome.
10. Angelina Baker by Stephen Foster changed to Angeline The Baker in Appalachia.

There are many more examples and brings forth the argument as to whether folk songs are part of the aural tradition and variations or is the original song composed?
There are arguments for both sides.

Johnny B. Goode is not one because of copyright restrictions, there are no definable or recognized variants.

Subject: RE: Can a pop song become traditional?
From: GUEST,Don Wise
Date: 06 Sep 12 - 04:41 AM

Ole has actually hit the nub of the problem here. There are myriads of traditions, so which one(s) are we talking about here? Those of the British Isles? US Appalachian? US country blues? Cajun? Sami? Bhutan? Denmark?

Chuck Berry probably won't transfer to British Isles 'folk' repertoires, and, given time one or other of the 'traditions', because his songs are intrinsically american. On the other hand, his songs have already crossed over into the cajun repertoire and in the course of time will no doubt be regarded as 'traditional' cajun songs.

Subject: RE: Can a pop song become traditional?
From: theleveller
Date: 06 Sep 12 - 03:51 AM

Swa begnornodon         Geata leode
hlafordes hryre,         heorðgeneatas,
cwædon þæt he wære         wyruldcyninga
manna mildust         ond monðwærust,
leodum liðost         ond lofgeornost.

THE END.

Subject: RE: Can a pop song become traditional?
From: theleveller
Date: 06 Sep 12 - 03:27 AM

Not 'accent', 'dialect'. Dohhhhhh!

Subject: RE: Can a pop song become traditional?
From: theleveller
Date: 06 Sep 12 - 03:04 AM

There's a huge affinity between Danish and the old, now seldom-spoken, East Yorkshire accent which, I'm told, only extends as far west as Snaith. My grandfather could speak it and told me the mow-familiar story of when some Danish soldiers were sent to East Yorkshire during the First World War, they could converse with the locals in Danish.

Subject: RE: Can a pop song become traditional?
From: johncharles
Date: 05 Sep 12 - 06:52 PM

Hwæt! We Gardena         in geardagum,
þeodcyninga,         þrym gefrunon,
hu ða æþelingas         ellen fremedon.

Just for Dick.

Subject: RE: Can a pop song become traditional?
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 05 Sep 12 - 05:26 PM

And Dick's English is obviously much worse than mine.

Subject: RE: Can a pop song become traditional?
From: The Sandman
Date: 05 Sep 12 - 03:46 PM

I only understand anglo saxon, which has proliferation of four letter words.
try folk off cos this fred is much ado abaht nowt

Subject: RE: Can a pop song become traditional?
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 05 Sep 12 - 03:31 PM

Ole,
Welcome. I have a great fondness for Danish ballads. I have a Danish dictionary which I occasionally use but sadly I don't speak Danish (and it's quite likely your English is better than mine). I'm intrigued about the Danish use of the word 'folk'. Can you enlighten us on this please?

Subject: RE: Can a pop song become traditional?
From: Ole Juul
Date: 05 Sep 12 - 05:42 AM

Folk is a term used by the semi-academics that dwell there/here and describes whatever they want it to mean.

To be fair, I don't think it's that vague. They clearly use the term to describe their particular kind of popular music from their particular culture. That's pretty specific. I note that there is little talk of Chinese music in this context, and even (as I pointed out at the beginning of this thread) Danish "folk" music does not fit the current English/American use of the word - and Denmark is only a few miles away.

Subject: RE: Can a pop song become traditional?
From: Henry Krinkle
Date: 05 Sep 12 - 05:28 AM

Gosh!
You sound like a real stampeder!
(:-( O)=

Subject: RE: Can a pop song become traditional?
From: Ole Juul
Date: 05 Sep 12 - 05:25 AM

AC: Has no-one heard of the ancient art of folk club heckling? Too many soft southerners amongst the respondents here?!

I remember at one gig, someone piped up from the back of the room: "play something you know!". I knew the person, and thought it was quite amusing. Indeed it was a friendly gesture and I wasn't the least offended.

Subject: RE: Can a pop song become traditional?
From: theleveller
Date: 05 Sep 12 - 05:19 AM

"Too many soft southerners amongst the respondents here?!"

You looking for a fat lip, sunshine? I was born and bred in Yorkshire, playing folk clubs there from the age of 16 and spending many a happy Saturday night in the rougher pubs of Hull dodging the fists (not always successfully) of trawlermen and dockers.

Subject: RE: Can a pop song become traditional?
From: GUEST,Guest
Date: 05 Sep 12 - 04:35 AM

Re: Bob Davenport

Has no-one heard of the ancient art of folk club heckling? Too many soft southerners amongst the respondents here?!

Re; Pop Songs - It depends if you think the term has any validity outside the semi-academic world of the current folk club/festival environment. Folk is a term used by the semi-academics that dwell there/here and describes whatever they want it to mean. In the world they seek to describe (rather than the one they inhabit)I would say it had no meaning. True some "traditional" singers would distinguish between songs of different heritage but I doubt they used the classification "folk".

Subject: RE: Can a pop song become traditional?
From: theleveller
Date: 05 Sep 12 - 02:48 AM

"quite heavy drinking was the norm, before the drink-drive laws."

...and the onset of weak bladders! Ah, happy days :)

Subject: RE: Can a pop song become traditional?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 05 Sep 12 - 12:56 AM

Aaaaarrrrrggggghhhhh! ~~ Bring on the Bloody Horse...!

Subject: RE: Can a pop song become traditional?
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 04 Sep 12 - 11:08 PM

So, you think something is a folk song if folks are singing it? Works for me.

Subject: RE: Can a pop song become traditional?
From: GUEST
Date: 04 Sep 12 - 05:48 PM

I read as much of this as I could stand, then skipped to the bottom to add my two cents' worth. Some of you already know my position on this topic ~ so feel free to skip this, if so inclined..

As a (retired) street performer, acoustic guitar and vocal, I always made it a point to construct my repertoire using selections (A) that I know and can perform credibly and (B) that people, in general, like and recognize ~ and might, for example, be motivated to sing (i.e., "sing-along") on a long bus ride or around a campfire.

Such a repertoire includes quite a few "popular" songs written and recorded in recent decades, and does NOT include songs that are without-a-doubt "traditional" but which are obscure and unlikely to arouse audience interest.

Does this define "folk"? For many (e.g., Cecil Sharp), obviously not.

But for me, such songs DO comprise the "folk culture" of our 21st-century, electronically-linked, world-wide community of musicians and listeners ~ in very much the same way that a given selection of traditional songs may have defined the folk culture of a 19th century fishing village or an 18th-century farming community.

I would consider, for example, that a number of Beatles songs have attained "folk" status under my definition ~ but that a precious few compositions by "folkie" singer-songwriters have achieved anywhere near the kind of widespread recognition that earns a place in our contemporary canon of "people's music."

Another thought: if you consider blues to be folk music (even if you restrict your definition to acoustically-played blues songs), it is almost impossible to exclude many songs with known composers.

I will draw the line somewhere though; to me, the Coke commercial about teaching the world to sing is NOT a folk song. But maybe that's only because I don't like it very much at all...

Subject: RE: Can a pop song become traditional?
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 04 Sep 12 - 03:45 PM

Absolutely!

I'm Popeye the sailor man.....
Try telling the playground song collectors it's not traditional!

Subject: RE: Can a pop song become traditional?
From: Henry Krinkle
Date: 04 Sep 12 - 03:41 PM

Do you think a TV theme song can become a traditional?
Gilligan's Island? Hazel? The Love Boat? Three's Company?
(:-( ))=

Subject: RE: Can a pop song become traditional?
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 04 Sep 12 - 03:29 PM

Thanks for the perspective reality check, Raymond.

50 years ago many folk clubs were not the gentile, sedate arenas that survive today. Many of those present were rising working class background and quite heavy drinking was the norm, before the drink-drive laws. Bob liked a drink like most of the others. Just adding a little bit of context.

I'll get me coat!

Subject: RE: Can a pop song become traditional?
From: GUEST,Stim
Date: 04 Sep 12 - 03:25 PM

It is worth noting that theleveller has chosen to pass harsh judgement on words spoken a half century ago by someone who he knows nothing about, in a situation that he knows nothing about, and which were recollected only for the purpose of telling any amusing story.

Those of us that the teller sought to amuse know certain things about such tales:

1.) They are intended to entertain.

2) As such, they may not be strictly factual.

3) Even if, on the odd chance that they are factually accurate, the statute of limitations on offenses committed has expired long ago.

4) Even if there were a fourth item for this list, it wouldn't be worth bothering about it.

Subject: RE: Can a pop song become traditional?
From: Brian Peters
Date: 04 Sep 12 - 01:04 PM

Thanks, Mr. Blandiver, for the kind words and that rather hilarious account of the Fleetwood Gasworks Club. It might surprise one or two readers to know that regular Mudcat adversaries can greet one another like long-lost friends when they meet. It's only a bit of chat, after all.

Glad you enjoyed Moseley, and I'm sorry I missed Emily Portman. Now back to the Davenport trial.

Subject: RE: Can a pop song become traditional?
From: GUEST,raymond greenoaken
Date: 04 Sep 12 - 12:48 PM

We're getting a bit worked up here about an anecdote from nearly fifty years ago. Jim Bainbridge hasn't been back to put his original post into context, so we're left with several questions unanswered.

1. "fully three minutes" Did Jim actually time this floor singer's peroration? Or did it just "feel" like three minutes? Sometimes even half a minute can feel like considerably longer. We don't even know from Jim's account whether time was at a premium on this occasion.

2. Did Bob Davenport know the singer personally? That would make a big difference in terms of the social dynamics.

3. Did BD utter his words in the boorish tone the account suggests? Or was it good-humoured badinage?

4. Was BD familiar with the song in question? He may merely have been impatient about hearing stuff that he already knew.

Without knowing any of the above, it's hard to form any general principles. Personally speaking, when it comes to traditional songs in performance, I'm always hungry for any information about them. Even the Child number can come in useful. And some songs just need more explication than others. It's all down to the performer's judgement at the end of the day.

Subject: RE: Can a pop song become traditional?
From: GUEST,matt milton
Date: 04 Sep 12 - 11:45 AM

I've bawled people out in public and gotten away with it. I've bawled people out in public and not gotten away with it. On the (few) occasions I've done it, across decades of gig-going, I don't think arrogance has had anything to do with it: it's always been because I thought the guy onstage was being an asshole.

Yeah, this particular one's a bad example, because the guy in question probably wasn't an asshole; he just didn't have a very good sense of floorspot etiquette.

But let's say the guy had been wittering on for longer - FIVE minutes, say. Would I be "bawling him out in public" if I said something like "We haven't got all night mate!" or something? Cos I don't see anything wrong with it - and have been known to make those kind of comments. In fact, I'm by no means unique: one of the NICE things about folk clubs is that a lot of the audience will know each other, and so heckling (generally of the genial/appropriate/humorous variety) is a direct result.

Of course, outside folk clubs - at small-venue rock/indie/punk venues I've played at - you hear far worse things. In fact, at a punk gig, depending on tone of voice "just play the fucking song" could even generate a laugh: I wouldn't be at all surprised if I've played gigs at which someone might have shouted that, given the number of pisshead musicians I've played with over the years.

Subject: RE: Can a pop song become traditional?
From: theleveller
Date: 04 Sep 12 - 11:20 AM

No, it's not the naughty word - it's the arrogance to think that you can bawl someone out in public and get away with it. Yes, I agree it can be annoying and inconsiderate when someone hogs the 'stage' but that's not the way to deal with it unless you want a full-scale brawl on your hands - which is exactly what would have happened (and frequently did) if you'd shouted at someone like that in a Hull docklands pub on a Saturday night.

A good MC can handle situations like that in a diplomatic way.