Can a pop song become traditional?

Subject: RE: Can a pop song become traditional?
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 22 Nov 15 - 11:27 AM

I have rarely heard anything so dreadful as Bob Davenport singing!

Subject: RE: Can a pop song become traditional?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Nov 15 - 07:48 AM

"You should realise Mr Carroll that entering into a battle of wits with an unarmed opponent is futile"
Point taken
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Can a pop song become traditional?
From: GUEST
Date: 22 Nov 15 - 07:39 AM

You should realise Mr Carroll that entering into a battle of wits with an unarmed opponent is futile

Subject: RE: Can a pop song become traditional?
From: The Sandman
Date: 22 Nov 15 - 07:10 AM

If i want to know about the fine art of pargetting, I ask someone who can show me that he can do it, you cannot sing but you persist in passing judgement, as far as i an concerned that means i have no reason to value your opinion, neither would I value the opinion of Britney Spears, Britney Spears is entitled to an opinion, but she cannot sing, so why should i take any notice of her
as the Actress said to the bishop its not length of time that matters but what you can do in that length of time, show us your singing and if its any good ,I might value your opinion.

Subject: RE: Can a pop song become traditional?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Nov 15 - 05:14 AM

"can Jim Carroll sing like that, in the meantime it would be great if Carroll would desist"
I really wasn't going to bother with this inanity as I have no doubt, should anybody bother I have no doubt it would lead to the destruction of this discussion - but I'm curious!
When I came into the music back in the early sixties, one of the first things that struck me was the democracy of the situation.
No matter whet your abilities as a singer, your knowledge or the length of time you'd been around,m your opinions were treated with complete respect.
If you asked a question or made a suggestion it was responded to with politeness and genuine interest - I can never remember having been told - by anybody - to go away and come back when I was a better singer oor had been around for longer.
Is it really the case nowadays that it is only the folkie superstars whose opinions are worth consideration?
Has the democracy gone down the pan with much of our traditional music?
Would appreciate an answer from someone else other than you Dick - I know yours already, you've made it clear several times.   
As I say, not intending to develop this into a tit-fot-tat; just curious.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Can a pop song become traditional?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Nov 15 - 04:40 AM

"They remind me of aging respected warriors sat in a gentlemen's club heatedly debating their old regiments, "
Wonder why - maybe to some people traditional music has no more relevance than the Battle of Waterloo - not to me, I'm afraid - it is as important and as entertaining an anything ever created and well worth arguing over
If it is irrelevant, why bother with forums like these
Thousands of youngsters in Ireland are coming to traditional music for the first time and some of them are playing it as well as it has ever been played - maybe we should tell them they are wasting their time and should expend their talents on all this new stuff!
Some of us here seem to be still hooked on personal taste - ah well!!
For my money, Sam Larner put more life and understanding into a song than did any other 80 year old I ever heard and both of them were into their 80s when recorded.
That's my preference for this thread
JIm Carroll

Subject: RE: Can a pop song become traditional?
From: The Sandman
Date: 22 Nov 15 - 03:33 AM

Iam not offended ,but found clips so you could hear him, Bob must be 80 and still has a powerful voice

Subject: RE: Can a pop song become traditional?
From: GUEST,Allan Conn
Date: 22 Nov 15 - 02:02 AM

Thanks for the link. Daveport does have a really good voice! Wasn't meaning to suggest otherwise just commented that the argument is like from a closed shop or other world to some of us and that others maybe came to folk music through different directions. Or maybe I should say "folk type music" so as not to offend some :-)

Subject: RE: Can a pop song become traditional?
From: The Sandman
Date: 21 Nov 15 - 06:41 PM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-IGfnZgZAXE

Subject: RE: Can a pop song become traditional?
From: The Sandman
Date: 21 Nov 15 - 06:38 PM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uttQbH2FuA

Subject: RE: Can a pop song become traditional?
From: The Sandman
Date: 21 Nov 15 - 04:37 PM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RYhfZ_eOoww

Subject: RE: Can a pop song become traditional?
From: The Sandman
Date: 21 Nov 15 - 04:36 PM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RYhfZ_eOoww

Subject: RE: Can a pop song become traditional?
From: The Sandman
Date: 21 Nov 15 - 04:34 PM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RYhfZ_eOoww

Subject: RE: Can a pop song become traditional?
From: The Sandman
Date: 21 Nov 15 - 04:20 PM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RYhfZ_eOow Bob Davenport
can Jim Carroll sing like that, in the meantime it would be great if Carroll would desist

Subject: RE: Can a pop song become traditional?
From: GUEST,Allan Conn
Date: 21 Nov 15 - 04:04 PM

It does seem a bit like that PFR. I feel that I am from a completely different world and to tell you the truth I'd never even heard of Davenport anyway! Putting aside Scottish folk songs (or as I thought of them in my youth - Corries songs) I actually was introduced to older folk songs via pop music. My mate was playing an old compilation cassette his older brother had made up. I think just after Annie Lennox singing "Wild Among The Flowers" something came on which made me take notice. It was Dylan singing "Blowin In The Wind" and from that day I became a Dylan fan. I then discovered many of his songs were based on older folk songs so I started looking these out. Fair enough trad songs are a distinct thing but I feel there is a continuum between these trad songs, more modern folk songs (ie Annie Laurie to Caledonia etc) and even some pop music be in folk type pop or folk rock etc.

Also this might infuriate some people but sorry it is my opinion. Dylan never had a great voice but in his younger days he could ctually sing. Good example is the Desire album. His voice is completely shot now. Can't listen to his recent stuff. I feel the same about some of the clips of some of the source singers. People raving about old old guys with, certainly by then, less than impressive singing voices. Seemed to be they were at least by then being lauded simply for knowing the songs rather than actual delivery. I know some will suggest that is heresy.

Subject: RE: Can a pop song become traditional?
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 21 Nov 15 - 02:37 PM

They remind me of aging respected warriors sat in a gentlemen's club heatedly debating their old regiments,
and Generals they have served and fought under...

"What the battles of 54 and 64.. MacColl's boys.. the Singers .. we were in the frontline.. face to face with the enemy..
Davenport and your sorry lot.. Bah... didn't even know which side you were fighting on...!!!???...
harumph..... steward 2 more ports for my good self and my old adversary the Colonel.. "

Subject: RE: Can a pop song become traditional?
From: keberoxu
Date: 21 Nov 15 - 01:25 PM

Am I gonna be sorry I jumped in here? Probably, but never mind. My music history studies from university days come in handy, here, for an example of....no, not this circular discussion....but the OP question, can a pop song become traditional? I guess the way I understand the question is, can a pop song become something else altogether?

Oh. That IS a different question, isn't it.

Anyway, here's my example.

Back in the days of the Minnesangers....this is before the Renaissance if I recall my music history properly. Minnesangers sang about "minne," which is not a lady's name, but a class of romantic love, devotion, lady on a pedestal, unnattainable object of desire, and so on. The lyrics were not limited to, but often appeared in, Mittel-Hoch-Deutsch, that is, German from before modern German. There was this one lament with a memorable tune. The words, rendered in present-day German, began:

"Mein G'mueth ist mir verwirren
Fuer eine Jungfrau zart...."

which says something like, My mental equilibrium is in tatters because of a fair young maid....

Fast-forward to the Reformation, Martin Luther, the Gutenberg Bible, and all those lovely Chorale-Hymns, which in time, Johann Sebastian Bach would harmonize. If Bach really liked the tune and the lyric, it would make its way into one of his choral compositions. Say, a cantata, like Christ Lag In Todesbanden.

As for "Mein G'mueth etc etc," that song of romance had long since lost its romance lyric, and its tune now had a lyric meditating on Good Friday; and in its new incarnation it was a chorale-hymn, solidly within the bosom of the church hymnal.

Now, the former love-song started with the words,

"O, Haupt voll Blut und Wunden...."

which tune Bach would exploit for his St. Matthew Passion.

Flash-forward to the Digital Tradition at the Mudcat Cafe, which has a lyric written by Paul Simon. His title is American Tune. Which always cracks me up, since the tune is recognizably:

"Mein G'mueth ist mir verwirren...."
or,
"O Haupt voll Blut und Wunden...."
known to us English-speakers as,
"O Sacred Head Now Wounded...."



....but don't mind me. You all go on circling each other verbally. Sorry, gentlemen, but you fellows do remind me of vultures in the air overhead.

Subject: RE: Can a pop song become traditional?
From: The Sandman
Date: 21 Nov 15 - 12:48 PM

"I never found the Singers Club sterile, but there again, I only went to the place for nearly every week for about twenty years, so what the hell do I know?"
If i were to make a judgement from that comment, I would say you know sweet f a, since when has going to a place many times been any criteria for making an objective judgement?.
you obviously liked the place, so   we should not be surprised that you did not find it sterile, however the Singers Club no longer exists. Islington Folk club and Musical traditions two clubs that Bob Davenport was involved with are still going., this is not opinion but FACT.
"I don't "hero worship" Ewan"
It is my opinion that you do.
I agree with you, he was a fine songwriter and a polished performer and an excellent presenter of his material, I also think his idea of using vocal warm up exercises was very good.
I think the UK Folk revival is indebted to the early song carriers such as Alex Campbell, Davenport, MacColl. Lloyd, Carthy.
I did find him arrogant on at least one occasion, on the other hand I could relate incidents that showed another side of his charcter , his helpfulness and kindness.

Subject: RE: Can a pop song become traditional?
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 21 Nov 15 - 09:20 AM

Please sir, I want some songs for accountants, solicitors, barristers and other professional people!!!

Most Gregson Collister songs are now traditional songs.

Subject: RE: Can a pop song become traditional?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Nov 15 - 04:45 AM

"The songs Child & co collected were pop songs. "
Not in the sense that the term is used today they weren't
Child called them 'Popular Ballads' not because they enjoyed great popularity but because he believed they came from and belonged to the PEOPLE - as far as you can get from today's pop songs which belong to somebody and bear a little (c) which identifies them as doing so - today's pop songs, no matter what reason the authors made them, are commodities to be bought and sold - as far away from the traditional repertoire as you can get, which belonged to nobody and were freely passed on.
Pat and I have been given many hundreds of songs by the older singers - we'd have had to sell our house and live in a tent if we'd been collecting pop songs.
Those songs are now archived and accessible for anybody to do what they wish with them - can't think of a single pop song we would be free to do that with - can you?
These songs are part of the social history of ordinary working people, which is why they are important and what distinguishes them from any other art form - THEY ARE OUR SONGS - not John Lennon's and Paul McCartney's, or anybody elses'.      
The only foolishness here is the idea that you can ignore all this and flush an entire genre of songs (the artistic creation of working people) down the pan at a whim and not be bothered enough to come up with an alternative definition for what passes for "folk/tradition.
Jim B
You've heard the urban legends and spiteful stories about MacColl - I knew Ewan for twenty years - I worked with him, I was a recipient of his and Peggy's incredible generosity when I moved to London - they fed me and gave me a bed until I found a job and somewhere to live.
I was part of the workshop they ran for singers who wished to become better singers - once a week in their home for nearly ten years, all while the rest of the folk stars were getting on with their own careers.
I don't "hero worship" Ewan - I admire the work he did for folk song, his ideas on them, the work he and Peggy put in to pass them on, not just in their own singing but in what they collected (*all freely available to interested people - they actually rigged up their home for visitors to stay over and copy their field recordings of Sam Larner, the Stewarts etc (some have finally been made available by Musical Traditions).
Ewan and Peggy have left a massive legacy - of their own singing (which you can take or leave) - their work, their ideas, the hundreds of songs they made (both were insistent that what they wrote weren't 'folk songs' by the way).
I never found the Singers Club sterile, but there again, I only went to the place for nearly every week for about twenty years, so what the hell do I know?
You want to rely on malicious gossip - feel free, I'll stick with personal experience, if its all the same with you.
In all the twenty years I knew Ewan I never once saw him shout anybody down in public, nor did I ever see him rude to people, certainly not in a crowded folk club.
Arrogant - maybe (I never found him so) - confident in his opinions, certainly, but having had a close look at those ideas over a long time and put them to the test in our work with traditional singers, I've come to the conclusion that he had a right to be - he was prepared stick his neck out and put those opinions up to be measured - happy to live with that anytime.
I don't particularly like Bob Davenport's singing, but that's my personal taste, but I deplore his arrogant and ill mannered attitude to his fellow performers.
I don't mind self confidence in people who merit it - it's the talentless ones who think they're god's gift who are the pain in the arse - never got that with Ewan and Peggy (we're still in touch with Peggy - still as generous and forthcoming as she always was) - plenty of others who don't live up to their own image of themselves.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Can a pop song become traditional?
From: GUEST
Date: 21 Nov 15 - 02:14 AM

Every song revered as traditional, ethnic, social this that and the other is a pop song.

The songs Child & co collected were pop songs.

If fools can be literal about the wide musical genre called folk, they must be consistent and be literal with the genre pop.

Subject: RE: Can a pop song become traditional?
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 21 Nov 15 - 12:03 AM

"Can a pop song become traditional?"

I'm still inclined to answer yes....

here

and before that,...

here... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=77lc1yxBtFE

which was happening at the same time and place as this.. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=89C_PQ_kuUk.

Then just follow the folk process trail back another 5 decades to the song's pop / rock origins....

Subject: RE: Can a pop song become traditional?
From: GUEST
Date: 20 Nov 15 - 11:58 PM

Can a pop can be used to hide a beer at a concert. Inquiring minds want to know

Subject: RE: Can a pop song become traditional?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 20 Nov 15 - 06:09 PM

To adapt the old limerick --

It would be most odd
If you could not tell God
Save The Weasel from Pop Goes The King.

Subject: RE: Can a pop song become traditional?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 20 Nov 15 - 06:00 PM

"a good song is a good song..."
.,.,.,

What a monumental copout.

Categories matter. Taxonomy is of the essence if any communication is to be effected, any standards maintained.

A good meal is a good meal. But there are times when one wants to eat Pâté de Foie Gras; others when one feels more like a couple of buttered crumpets with bitter orange marmalade; or an Escalope Bordselaise; or a nice plate of Kellogg's Corn Flakes with tinned condensed milk; or soft roes on toast with raspberry vinegar... All food; but not otherwise to be identically categorised.

Likewise with music -- 'songs' -- however 'good'...

Astonished at such emotively and evasively loose argument from the long-established & much respected Mr Bainbridge.

≈M≈

Subject: RE: Can a pop song become traditional?
From: GUEST,jim bainbridge
Date: 20 Nov 15 - 02:10 PM

The incident in Surbiton, Jim, was something I mentioned many moons ago- I really couldn't see what relevance it had to the current exchange of views except as a further contribution to your obsession about Bob D, so I just 'thought I'd clarify what happened!
I admire what MacColl did for the music in the early days, and especially the songs he wrote, but with MANY reservations. There are equally as many anecdotes about MacColl's behaviour, illustrating arrogance rather than verbal violence but let's not get into all that again- it would be nice to hear that you could accept that Bob did ANYTHING for the music, apart from your blinkered hero- worship? Yes, he was a pain at times, but..... also the spirit of the Empress of Russia continues at the MT club, whereas MacColl's sterile 'Singers' club influence seems now to be confined to the media- ie academic rather than active and living.

Thanks Dick, let's get on with the music instead of all this wasted energy- as a FINAL comment on the original point of this thread, it may be a cliché, but a good song is a good song...

Subject: RE: Can a pop song become traditional?
From: Lighter
Date: 19 Nov 15 - 06:13 PM

> can't tell the difference

Certainly untrue in the case of "Row, My Bully Boys, Row" on another thread. And many others as well.

Subject: RE: Can a pop song become traditional?
From: GUEST,Phil
Date: 19 Nov 15 - 03:40 PM

Desi C.: "Can S.h.i.t.e ever be called chocolate!"
It's a matter perspective. Experiment: Unwrap a "Baby Ruth®" candy bar, toss it into your local public swimming pool and observe how people react ;)

Academics, musicians and audiences can't tell the difference until they have a backstory (truth or fiction.) Their individual perspectives on race, nationality, politics, economics, etc. outside of the music then decide the issue for them (accurately or not.)

"The Wreck of the Sloop John B" is a vaudville pop tune masquerading as authentic Bahamian folk; masquerading as American pop-folk.

"Colby;" "Choucoune;" "Don't Ever Love Me" and "Yellow Bird" are four nearly identical Pan-American songs individual listeners will pigeonhole very differently according to their nonmusical attributes.

Subject: RE: Can a pop song become traditional?
From: The Sandman
Date: 19 Nov 15 - 03:11 PM

"Fine by me - you get on with it your way and I'll get on with it mine- for me, that means finding out where it came from."
Jim Bainbridge has in my opinion more to offer as a performer than you, he is also interested in where the songs came from.
"Not really interested in him in one way other the other - just your apparent admiration for his bad behaviour."
why do you keep going on about him then, I mean ,you brought up some evnt FROM 1964, 58 YEARS AGO.You seem to have a Davenport obsession.

Subject: RE: Can a pop song become traditional?
From: GUEST,CJ
Date: 19 Nov 15 - 03:09 PM

Thanks Jim.

My own basic take on it is thus - when I'm in a discussion about traditional music and someone takes or uses the expression "folk" to mean acoustic pop, I say "ah I meant traditional folk" and that almost always clears the waters. As an aside, to avoid that particular confusion, I find myself using the expression 'traditional music' just as often as 'folk music'.

Subject: RE: Can a pop song become traditional?
From: Brian Peters
Date: 19 Nov 15 - 03:07 PM

"please no more blue clickys..."

The clicky was there to share my enthusiasm for Kathy Hobkirk with the rest of Mudcat, not just prove a point. Kathy is indeed particularly good, but by no means the only one who can put over a ballad convincingly.

Subject: RE: Can a pop song become traditional?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 Nov 15 - 02:58 PM

"hould have known Mr Carroll would bring Bob D into this, it really is very predictable, isn't it? "
You brought him in earlier Jim with your story about his bad manners two people mentioned him beforehand.
Not really interested in him in one way other the other - just your apparent admiration for his bad behaviour.
Wonder wwhy it's a no-no to criticise him yet take a pop at Ewan, (as is your wont) who has been dead for over half a century   
Your double-standards are showing!
It's never "right" to shout down a fellow singer - take him/her aside and explain your likes and dislikes to him/her by all means - but the way Davenport has been known to behave wouldn't be accepted at a Celtic-Rangers match without someone throwing a bottle.
"I wasn't at the Musical Traditions club in London when the other alleged incident occurred"
It wasn't "alleged" -it happened and was commented on by several members of the audience - why shouldn't it have happened - you've described him behaving in the same way.
"Where is your 'Singers' club' now, Jim?"
The same place a dozen or so clubs Bob was involved in - The Empress of Russia - The Fox - and at least half a dozen others visted when I lived in London.
However - MacColl, Seeger and others of The Singers left a legacy that is still being celebrated - just made two radio programmes to celebrate his 100th
I already knew September Song long before I heard Bob sing it.
"I'm also extremely grateful for their contribution to the 'tradition'. "
Nice to know we agree on something
"Let's just get on with the music"
Fine by me - you get on with it your way and I'll get on with it mine- for me, that means finding out where it came from.
To be honest - I really am not unhappy with what Pat and I have managed to do with the songs and information we have gathered and passed on - and we've managed it without telling people what they should be doing!
Jim Carroll   
.

Subject: RE: Can a pop song become traditional?
From: The Sandman
Date: 19 Nov 15 - 01:49 PM

I know what it is, as I expect do all readers of this discussion, so let's just get on with the music, wherever it comes from!
Well said.

Subject: RE: Can a pop song become traditional?
From: GUEST,jim bainbridge
Date: 19 Nov 15 - 01:30 PM

Should have known Mr Carroll would bring Bob D into this, it really is very predictable, isn't it?   Is this part of the evidence for the silencing of all who (like me and Bob) do not subscribe to his canonisation campaign for the Blessed MacColl?

Anyway, it wasn't me who brought it up this time guv...but maybe I'll now expand on exactly what happened that night in 1964.

I was there when Bob uttered the offending words and I think he was dead right (language excepted). The 'singer' was taking advantage of the good nature of the audience at Derek Sarjeant's club in Surbiton to talk down to the people as a bad teacher might to ten-year olds.

He didn't just explain the song's background- I often do that myself, this man told the whole story, verse by verse, rendering the singing of the song pointless!
The audience were restive, but too polite to react, and apart from the f.. word I think Bob was principled, brave and may have made a few folk think & wish THEY had said something!
I wasn't at the Musical Traditions club in London when the other alleged incident occurred, but I DO know that the MT club which continues to thrive, would very likely not exist without Bob Davenport- ask the organisers!
Where is your 'Singers' club' now, Jim?

As for Kathy Hobkirk, Brian, she goes to other places than Whitby- I'm an irregular visitor there, by the way but you must appreciate that my assertions were of their nature, generalisations. Kathy is a fine singer I've known for many years (20 plus?) but she is certainly one of the few exceptions which prove the rule- please no more blue clickys...

Finally, to Jim C, I love what is called folk/traditional/ethnic music (as I define it) & have no wish to damage the 'tradition' as I understand it. I have great respect for 'travellers'- or 'tinkers' as Sheila Stewart used to prefer being called. I'm also extremely grateful for their contribution to the 'tradition'.

The music may have needed protection in the fifties, but such is the huge body of material available to people in the internet age, worrying about whether a song is folk or traditional still seems daft to me, and 61 year old definitions seem even dafter.
I know what it is, as I expect do all readers of this discussion, so let's just get on with the music, wherever it comes from!

Subject: RE: Can a pop song become traditional?
From: The Sandman
Date: 19 Nov 15 - 12:33 PM

I agree background information is interesting.
Neither do I agree with interrupting people [unless they make a racist comment], however I have been interuppted once by Fred Jordan and once by a folk club organiser, I continued unabashed and was not intimidated by anyone.If any one tries to interrupt me I am ready for them.
I do not need any definition to decide which song I am going to sing, I have no desire to sing pop songs, if i did I would have become a pop singer and made a lot more money, I believe I AM EMPLOYED IN FOLK CLUBS TO SING TRAD SONGS,WHICH I CAN RECOGNISE WITHOUT A DEFINITION.

Subject: RE: Can a pop song become traditional?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 Nov 15 - 12:11 PM

"Quite true, Dick, but it is a discussion forum, "
Totally agree - as you would!!
I doubt if these arguments radically change people'e views, but at the very least, they can add to what we think we know.
The day we can't discuss folksong is the day we close down forums like Mudcat.
C.J. "May I ask which cases you were referring to?"
Sorry meant to respond to this earlier - cant multi task too well nowadays.
It's a bit difficult to deal with this at length and it's bound to get bogged down in argument, but I have in mind songs with a known authorship that have hardly changed, but are claimed by communities as their own
We've come across several songs that fall into this category during our work here on the West Coast of Ireland
Two songs 'Nora Daly' and 'Farewell to Miltown Malbay' written as poems in this town by local poet Tomás Ó hAodha (Thomas Hayes)- (1866-1935.) - sung around by locals extensively, undergone virtually no changes in the century since they were made (except most singers have dropped two verses from the original and one singer sang it to a different tune - and the song remained in this area and didn't move out until the revival, to my knowledge - is it too static to have passed through any process - don't know and wouldn't dream of arguing with anybody who says it is traditional.
Another similar, 'A Stór mo Chroí' (Treasure of my Heart), written by Brian O'Higgins (1882-1963) - the same applies as the above songs - known author, etc.... but totally accepted by local peole as traditional - who am I to argue.
One example of a deliberately written song establishing itself into the oral tradition is known alternatively as 'Patrick Sheehan' or 'The Glens of Aherlow' - written very self-consciously by Irish author and Republican, Charles Kickham (1828-1882) in order to persuade Irishmen not to join the British army.
Kickham said he "wrote it deliberately in the style of the street ballad" in order that it would get maximum circulation.
It is based on actual events and tells of a man whose family were driven from their home by a landlord during the famine - when his parents died at the side of the road he joins the army and is blinded at Sevastopol.
After a time his army pension expires and he is forced to beg on the streets of Dublin
Kickham is said to have made the song having met a veteran of the Crimean War in exactly the circumstance described in his song - it brought about a review of the army pension rules.
I suppose the deciding factor in all these is that Ireland had a strong oral tradition up to quite late which was still capable of absorbing these songs.
They can all be found on the Clare County Library website HERE
As I said - no hard and fast rules but very different from taking different genres of songs and claiming them to be folk.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Can a pop song become traditional?
From: Brian Peters
Date: 19 Nov 15 - 11:10 AM

Quite true, Dick, but it is a discussion forum, and the theoretical side has its place too. This and other similar threads do tend to go round in circles, but they've contained some interesting discussion, and certainly made me question my own attitudes. And what about all those queries Malcolm Douglas used to be so good at answering, about song history? You don't need all that to sing the song, it's just interesting for it's own sake.

Subject: RE: Can a pop song become traditional?
From: The Sandman
Date: 19 Nov 15 - 09:38 AM

"Just sing the bloody song" is all very well, but if that's all that everyone wanted to do there would be no need for Mudcat."
really, what about all the questions about technique related to instrumental playing, the precise point at which mudcat is in my opinion most useful.
all these questions about what is folk music etc,never seem to reach a conclusion, and are in my opinion a perfect illustration of discussions going round in circles, and GETTING NOWHERE.
    Mudcat is also useful as a digital resource for providing words of songs that is possibly what is it needed for as regards the majority of people interested in songs, providing words of songs.

Subject: RE: Can a pop song become traditional?
From: Brian Peters
Date: 19 Nov 15 - 08:00 AM

Personally I think that pretty well everything useful there was to be said regarding the topic was covered three years ago. However, although there's no earthly reason why singers shouldn't ignore pigeon holes and sing whatever they like (as I do), the OP asked a perfectly reasonable and interesting question, and the respondents have done no more than try to answer it according to their own precepts.

"Just sing the bloody song" is all very well, but if that's all that everyone wanted to do there would be no need for Mudcat.

Subject: RE: Can a pop song become traditional?
From: GUEST,CJ
Date: 19 Nov 15 - 06:02 AM

Jim Carroll,

May I ask you a question on this?

Way up above on this thread you mentioned

"don't think there are hard and fast rules on individual songs - there are certainly borderline cases"

May I ask which cases you were referring to?

Thanks in advance

CJ

Subject: RE: Can a pop song become traditional?
From: GUEST,Colin
Date: 19 Nov 15 - 05:26 AM

I'm reminded by all this above of the lyrics to an old traditional pop song... very appropriate lyrical value I'm sure you'll agree..

Sing sing a song
Make it simple to last the whole night long
Don't worry that its not good enough for anyone else to hear
Just sing
Sing a song


simples

Subject: RE: Can a pop song become traditional?
From: GUEST,Dave
Date: 19 Nov 15 - 05:19 AM

Aargh Raggy, I really hope not!

Subject: RE: Can a pop song become traditional?
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 19 Nov 15 - 04:55 AM

Back to the OP.

A couple of days ago I heard Peter Sarstedt singing "Where Do You Go To My Lovely"

I think that's a Pop Song that could become a Folk Song, if it hasn't already done so.

Subject: RE: Can a pop song become traditional?
From: The Sandman
Date: 19 Nov 15 - 04:33 AM

"If it wasn't for the collectors and researchers we wouldn't have folk clubs or anything to sing in them; we'd all still be warbling about pink and blue toothbrushes. "
true, but as usual not the complete picture, Jim has forgotten the folk club organisers, people like Ted Poole[ 50 years organising] and Vic and Tina Smith,Ron Angel and many more.
without folk club organisers there would be NO folk clubs, then there is the hundreds of quality performers like Bob Davenport[ who did not need crib sheets], most of whom earned a pittance but who generally helped to maintain a good standard.

Subject: RE: Can a pop song become traditional?
From: GUEST,Phil
Date: 19 Nov 15 - 04:32 AM

Jim C.: "That the pop industry was prepared not to include calypso to sell their product is surely the point - commercial enterprises do that sort of thing all the time."

Belafonte is/was considered a folk singer by millions of listeners around the globe and he is hardly a fan of capitalism today. But he is still cranking out those "King of Calypso" reissues and "Greatest Hits" comps.

"I assume you have come up with an alternative of your own - or somebody else's?"

If I'm dealing with Belafonte's music I use Belafonte's. When I move to the largest online database I'll find all "calypso" as a subset of "reggae;" where "Folk" is one third of "Folk/World/Country" and "Trad" appears only as a track credit (ie: neither genre nor style.) Different boats, different long splices. Twas always thus.

Subject: RE: Can a pop song become traditional?
From: The Sandman
Date: 19 Nov 15 - 04:19 AM

i agree Allan, however any professional performer knows how to deal with a heckler.
I would have dealt with Bob in ten seconds,as I dealt with Fred Jordan on the other hand the girl from the Aran islands was in a different country explaining her own language, and should have been given more respect, different situations.
Dear old Jim Carroll is a bit like an elephant remembering all these different Davenport offences from as far back as 1964

Subject: RE: Can a pop song become traditional?
From: GUEST,Allan Conn
Date: 19 Nov 15 - 03:54 AM

No need to explain the story itself if the song itself does that. We had one woman who was singing Nancy Whisky and in between each verse explained what was going to happen in the next verse! It was quite frankly a tad annoying though no-one said anything. However surely nothing wrong with explaining the background to a song before singing it? As long as it isn't too long winded and is interesting I think that often enhances it. I don't think there is any excuse for publicly barracking someone though. A wee word in the ear is surely preferable?

Subject: RE: Can a pop song become traditional?
From: The Sandman
Date: 19 Nov 15 - 03:17 AM

"First time I heard Bob Davenport in 1964(he's well known for plain speaking) a floor singer got up and spent fully 3 minutes explaining the song he was about to sing. Bob stood up and shouted from the back- 'Sing the fucking song man, stop talking about it'"
I saw behave like this a few years ago in the Musical Traditions Club, in this case, towards a young woman singer from The Aran Islands who had taken the trouble to give a brief explanation of her Irish language songs.
Two completely different situations, Which Jim lumps together to have a go about Bob Davenport.
There is no need to explain the story of a song if you are going to sing it, there is a good reason for explaining a song in a different language, NAMELY people who do not understand the language can know what its about.

Subject: RE: Can a pop song become traditional?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Nov 15 - 06:46 PM

"Here we go, here we go, here we go!"
Not as far as I'm concerned Steve - a diversion that should not have happened
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Can a pop song become traditional?
From: Brakn
Date: 18 Nov 15 - 05:21 PM

I don't think I'm going to bother reading all this. Ah well life goes on..