BS: A reassertion of basic American values

Subject: BS: A reassertion of basic American values
From: Sawzaw
Date: 02 Sep 12 - 07:03 PM

"The message coming out of Tampa was not Tea Party extremism. It was just a reassertion of the basic values of American political culture: self-determination, individual aspiration and genuine community, as opposed to belief in the state as the fount of all social virtue."

The magic formula in which the wealth produced by the market economy is redistributed by the state â€" from those who produce it to those whom the government believes deserve it â€" has gone bust.

More here

Subject: RE: BS: A reassertion of basic American values
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 02 Sep 12 - 07:34 PM

The income tax--which is what seems to be waht's referred to---dates back to 1862. Rich folks have, understandably, opposed it since then.

Subject: RE: BS: A reassertion of basic American values
From: kendall
Date: 02 Sep 12 - 07:49 PM

I wish I had more faith in the collective IQ of the voters.

Subject: RE: BS: A reassertion of basic American values
From: Rapparee
Date: 02 Sep 12 - 08:52 PM

That's nice, Sawz.

Subject: RE: BS: A reassertion of basic American values
From: MarkS
Date: 02 Sep 12 - 09:14 PM

Folks, just remember one thing.

Government never gave you one penny which it did not first take from you or from somebody else in the first place.

I hope this is one basic value on which we can all agree.

Mark

Subject: RE: BS: A reassertion of basic American values
From: Don Firth
Date: 02 Sep 12 - 09:29 PM

Taxes are the dues you pay for living in a civilized society.

Try to contemplate for a moment what it would be like to live in a society that didn't collect taxes. There would be no roads and no bridges (other than, perhaps toll roads and toll bridges), no police departments, no fire departments, no public schools. . . .

And that's just for starters.

THINK about it!!

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: A reassertion of basic American values
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 02 Sep 12 - 09:40 PM

Saws basic value: I'll get mine, the hell with the rest.

Subject: RE: BS: A reassertion of basic American values
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 02 Sep 12 - 10:37 PM

Fucking idiot.

When society all but collapsed throughout large parts of the USA after the civil war - were people there in a better state?

What gradually improved their lot? The restoration of government control and thus organisation.

What pays for that?

Simples!

Subject: RE: BS: A reassertion of basic American values
From: Bobert
Date: 02 Sep 12 - 10:41 PM

Saws represents the American values of the 1%....

No one else...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: A reassertion of basic American values
From: musicmick
Date: 03 Sep 12 - 12:37 AM

Does Bobert think that only 1% of Americans do not value "...self determination, individual aspiration and genuine community..". If he does, he's out of touch with Liberal core values. It is the role of society, as represented by government, that is in contention.
When the left and right start their conversations with what they have in common, they can get back to coexistance. When we allow our fellow citizens the right to believe stuff we disdain, the dialogue will begin.
Of course, we would miss the Mudcat Marathon of Merriment these threads provide

Subject: RE: BS: A reassertion of basic American values
From: Penny S.
Date: 03 Sep 12 - 03:28 AM

Funny thing, from over here, when I think of basic American values, I think of the Declaration of Independence and the original Constitution, and I think how good it would be to have had them over here, in the country which exported the ideas behind them (there are some amendments I might not welcome). But when I read some modern ideas about bAvs, I don't want them much. (I think the Americans whose values I respect and which seem to be in the founding spirit don't go on about them being American, which makes the difference.)

Penny

Subject: RE: BS: A reassertion of basic American values
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 03 Sep 12 - 04:30 AM

Unfortunately, in common usage in the US, the only ones who talk all that much about "Basic American Values" are really only talking about their own particular style of "Basic American Bigotry."

(Just an observation based on decades of observation, that I WILL NOT DEBATE.)

John

Subject: RE: BS: A reassertion of basic American values
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 03 Sep 12 - 06:20 AM

"It was just a reassertion of the basic values of American political culture: self-determination, individual aspiration and genuine community, as opposed to belief in the state as the fount of all social virtue."

Just a statement of unthinking, self-serving 'religious faith'. The stupid ideology of the American neo-liberal right has got the whole world into the present shitty economic mess. And despite that fact that most of their fatuous 'theories' (really just wild guesses based on selfish, avaricious, acquisitive hopes and dreams)have been shown to be complete rubbish, it seems that a lot of Americans just want more of the same!

Subject: RE: BS: A reassertion of basic American values
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 03 Sep 12 - 06:38 AM

Basic American Values?   Woody Guthrie, for a start.

Subject: RE: BS: A reassertion of basic American values
From: bobad
Date: 03 Sep 12 - 07:45 AM

Typical right wing code speak extolling the Randist gospel - I'm alright Jack.

Subject: RE: BS: A reassertion of basic American values
From: GUEST
Date: 03 Sep 12 - 08:38 AM

I have no problems with "self determination, individual aspiration and genuine community", musicmick... What I have problems with is folks who represent the rich throwing those values out there as if they ***own*** those values as these same people rig the deck, steal our labor, pollute or water, poison our air and think the deserve to do those things...

Every opportunity that Saws has had here in Mudcat he comes down on the side of the crooks, the liars, the cheats, the polluters, the exploiters and the folks who don't have a clue what "genuine community" means...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: A reassertion of basic American values
From: Arkie
Date: 03 Sep 12 - 09:46 AM

Speaking of core values, everyone of the nasty, degrading, outright lies, and distortion of fact emails I receive comes from someone representing the so-called right wing. Everyone. I am not saying that I do not received skewed information from the progressive and even 'liberal' wing but it does not contain the venom nor outrageous and calculated falsehood.

Speaking of core values, basic American values, why is it that those who use that term are satisfied that they can live in a country where they are free to practice those values. Why do they believe that they must enforce their values on everyone else. Forcing the moral system of one group upon all others is not an American value.

Those who view taxes as wealth taken from them by the government are often involved in practices that exploit the wealth of others through manipulation of information and government (the 'American Way'). The wealth of the middle class is gradually declining. That money is going somewhere. The wealth of the upper 1-5% is increasing. Is that a co-incidence? Or the reassertion of basic American values.

Subject: RE: BS: A reassertion of basic American values
From: musicmick
Date: 03 Sep 12 - 11:05 AM

The true believers, on both sides of thr aisle, are no more representative of American political and social creed than Donald Trump represents employers. They just make the most noise. The epithets found in these replies reinforces my assertion that we have stopped listening to anything that doesn't fit into our little packets of principals.
I am, neither, wealthy nor privilaged but I do not envy or resent those who are. Some of them have worked long and hard for their bucks. Some have been born into wealth and that doesn't bother me at all. I will leave whatever I have, to my daughter and my grandson and, if it makes their lives easier, hooray.
I have been a Marxist, in my day, but age and experience have taught me that Harpo was more cogent than Groucho, Chico or Karl.

Subject: RE: BS: A reassertion of basic American values
From: John P
Date: 03 Sep 12 - 12:29 PM

Yes, basic American values from the political party that includes anti-civil rights statements in its official platform. "The Land of the Free", but only if you look and act like a Republican. How can so many people claim to want freedom for all while they are busily reducing the freedoms of women, gay people, poor people, and people of color? "A Christian country", even though our Constitution denies it and many millions of Americans are not Christians -- and those who most loudly talk about being Christian are demonstrably the opposite.

As for taxes -- it's really called civilization. Civilized people band together to accomplish things that individuals can't do alone. Roads, hospitals, schools, armies, police, fire fighters, courts, and, maybe someday, health care. "No Taxes" is really "I don't care about my fellow man" and "I'm an idiot that doesn't realize that civilization costs money" and "I've been bought by big corporations who want to get rid of all regulations".

Conversations about the role of government would be OK if every corporation in the world was run on altruistic lines. Since all of our experience, however, is that without regulation we get raped in a variety of ways, I'd like an explanation of how lessening the role of government would actually work. And I would like an explanation of how the Republicans can talk about getting the governments out of our personal lives while they are legislating what adults can do in bed with each other.

Answers? Anyone?

Subject: RE: BS: A reassertion of basic American values
From: Amos
Date: 03 Sep 12 - 12:49 PM

LEt's not get all asinine here. People pay taxes into any group in which they hope to see some kind of group action. National action like interstates, defense, national parks. State actions like highways and state parks and bridges. City and county actions like infrastructure, dogcatchers, and so on.

Trying to re-cast this fasct of civilization as a corrupt redistribution of YOUR money to OTHER people by EVIL Governments is just twit-headed babble.

Obviously when the flows get corrupted or are managed by stupid-heads, there are plenty of grounds for complaint. But don't be stupid about misidentifying the basic purpose--the creation of larger-scale projects. You think NASA would have landed on Mars without a tax system, or the Marines on Normandy's beaches, or I-95 the length of the coast? Come on.

Subject: RE: BS: A reassertion of basic American values
From: Don Firth
Date: 03 Sep 12 - 02:59 PM

John, in answer to your above post.

It has taken fifty-some years for her ideas to permeate much of American politics, but here is what many Republican politicians, Libertarians, and in a very loose way, the Tea Party, currently embrace as part of their basic beliefs. Directly from the Ayn Rand Institute:

"The basic social principle of the Objectivist ethics is that no man has the right to seek values from others by means of physical force—i.e., no man or group has the right to initiate the use of physical force against others. Men have the right to use force only in self-defense and only against those who initiate its use. Men must deal with one another as traders, giving value for value, by free, mutual consent to mutual benefit. The only social system that bars physical force from human relationships is laissez-faire capitalism. Capitalism is a system based on the recognition of individual rights, including property rights, in which the only function of the government is to protect individual rights, i.e., to protect men from those who initiate the use of physical force." Thus Objectivism rejects any form of collectivism, such as fascism or socialism. It also rejects the current "mixed economy" notion that the government should regulate the economy and redistribute wealth."

This is the idea that governs Ayn Rand's—and Paul Ryan's—politico-economic position. But Ayn Rand was a rabid atheist and viewed anyone with religious beliefs of any kind as "irrational" (one can debate this, of course, but that's another discussion, so let's not confuse the issue at this point). However, much of the Right's base consists of religious people, including Christian Evangelicals and the "America is a Christian county" crowd, so Paul Ryan (along with other Republicans) is forced to distance himself from THIS ASPECT of Ayn Rand's philosophy, hence all his "God talk" during his speech at the Republican convention.

This way, Republicans can push Ayn Rand's politics, economics, and general world view while trying to dodge the uncomfortable bits such as her hostility toward religious belief of any kind.

Interesting to note that Ayn Rand herself would have a wall-eyed fit over this "cherry-picking" of aspects of her philosopy. She considered it all of a piece, and from the view of someone who actually understands her whole belief-system, it is a blatant contradiction and shows a lack of integrity!

To get an in-depth idea of what the Right Wing is currently about as far as politics and economics are concerned—and if you have a strong stomach—read Atlas Shrugged and/or Capitalism, the Unknown Ideal. Another of her seminal works is (!!) The Virtue of Selfishness.

I've read all these when I was young, naïve, and stupid. So I have a fairly clear idea of what's going on in the minds of the current crop of Right Wingers.

(Still thinking of emigrating to one of the Scandinavian countries).

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: A reassertion of basic American values
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 03 Sep 12 - 03:23 PM

""It was just a reassertion of the basic values of American political culture: self-determination, individual aspiration and genuine community, as opposed to belief in the state as the fount of all social virtue."""

No Sawz, a return to the old Republican mantra, as follows:-

1. The value of a citizen is directly proportional to the number of zeros on his paycheck.

2. A smack in the mouth or a bullet are the answer to all disputes.

3. The poor schmucks who work their socks off to produce the wealth for the valued citizens, if they get sick, can choose. Go without treatment, or starve!!

After all, they're just indolent losers who don't have the ambition to join the seven zero elite.

That's the ""basic values of American political culture:"" you are talking about, and it is nothing more or less than a measure of how far your America is from genuine civilisation.

Thank God most here don't listen to your crap.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: A reassertion of basic American values
From: Sawzaw
Date: 03 Sep 12 - 04:00 PM

"Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery."

Subject: RE: BS: A reassertion of basic American values
From: Don Firth
Date: 03 Sep 12 - 04:30 PM

Sawzaw:   "Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery."

Right out of the Ayn Rand playbook!

Don T.'s point 3. The poor schmucks who work their socks off to produce the wealth for the valued citizens, if they get sick, can choose. Go without treatment, or starve!!

Ayn Rand calls these folks "moochers and parasites."

If the Republicans win this time around....well....Sweden sounds like a nice country.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: A reassertion of basic American values
From: bobad
Date: 03 Sep 12 - 04:40 PM

I would venture that the OP and his/her fellow travellers of the right who hurl the "socialist" epithet at President Obama have no real understanding of the concept, they just use it as a form of invective signifying something evil that the poorly educated can rally behind.

Subject: RE: BS: A reassertion of basic American values
From: pdq
Date: 03 Sep 12 - 04:44 PM

"Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel or envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery." ~   Winston Churchill

People who don't like the quote should take it up with the author.

Subject: RE: BS: A reassertion of basic American values
From: Stringsinger
Date: 03 Sep 12 - 04:52 PM

self-determination, individual aspiration and genuine community, as opposed to belief in the state as the fount of all social virtue."

Self-determination is the first myth. As Americans, we are dependent on government to keep our nation democratic rather than autocratic or fascistic.

Genuine community can't exist without the state unless it becomes a warring tribe pitted against other warring tribes.

Government serves many different functions and protects those who are less well
off than Romney/Ryan/Ayn Rand and other fascist oligarchs.

We need a strong central government to protect us from Libertarians.

Subject: RE: BS: A reassertion of basic American values
From: Little Hawk
Date: 03 Sep 12 - 05:49 PM

There are hundreds of millions of working class Latin Americans who do not share your loathing or your misunderstanding of socialism, Sawzaw, and they have a radically different understanding of it than you do. They see it as the establishment of basic human rights and the ending of USA-backed corporate-fascist dictatorships. Hundreds of thousands of them have died at the hands of CIA-trained death squads and USA-financed military police since the end of WWII.

And you know what they also believe in and have fought for all their lives? self-determination, individual aspiration and genuine community

It IS the USA and its CIA-backed dictators which have deprived them of those 3 things, along with, in many cases, their lives.

You have no idea what socialism is in a democracy, and apparently no idea that it IS founded upon the very concept OF community, individual aspiration, and self-determination....whereas the Neo-fascist message that consistently comes from the USA is, in fact, the destruction of traditional communities all over the place, and their replacement with foreign-owned corporate monopolies and police states.

Republicans don't know that. Neither do most Democrats. They are mostly unaware of it, because their mass media and their schools and their leaders don't tell them about it.

Subject: RE: BS: A reassertion of basic American values
From: musicmick
Date: 03 Sep 12 - 06:08 PM

Actually, Little Hawk, I do know what socialism is from reading Daniel DeLeon, Marx & Engels and whatever Fabians I could get ahold of. I know it from being involved with the SLP, the YSL and YPSL.
I know it from a three year stay at a Habonim kibbutz. (I never carried a bomb because it was Sister Jennie's turn to throw but I think my creds are solid.)
My intent is not to argue the Republican position. It is to get people to shut their ears, their eyes and their hearts. This battle stance we, and they, maintain does not serve our peoples or our principals.

Subject: RE: BS: A reassertion of basic American values
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 03 Sep 12 - 06:23 PM

The idea that one could learn socialism in a kibbutz...

PMSL.

Subject: RE: BS: A reassertion of basic American values
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 03 Sep 12 - 06:24 PM

Oh - and whence the idea that Churchill had any finer principles? Look at his history, and the resounding answer the British people gave him when the right to elections was restored to them.

Subject: RE: BS: A reassertion of basic American values
From: Don Firth
Date: 03 Sep 12 - 06:28 PM

When Sawzaw and pdq try to use "socialism" as a pejorative, they are merely joining the horde of know-nothing parrots who don't really know what the word "socialism" means and how the system works.

One of the reasons I keep mentioning the Scandinavian countries is that they have had essentially socialist governments for quite a long time now, and it is working very well.

A point which people like Sawzaw and pdq would rather not be brought up.

We could learn a lot from the way Sweden, Norway, Finland, and Denmark do things. Especially when you take a look at the statistics regarding such things as lack of poverty, along with nobody so rich they can BUY the government, leisure time in relation to work time, services available to the citizens (did you know that if you move to Sweden and you don't know the language, first of all, most people there can speak English, but the government will pay you to take a Swedish language course?), the very high level of education (by comparison, the U. S. should be ashamed of itself), the availability and quality of health care—and the figures on general level of happiness and satisfaction of the population.

Tell a Swede, "You pay such high taxes!" and he or she will respond, "Yes, our taxes are high compared to yours, but look what we get for it!"

We really should study them to see how they do it.

"America is the greatest country in the world!!"

I don't think so, and anyone who does needs to walk around the block a few times, see a bit of the world, and get a clue.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: A reassertion of basic American values
From: Little Hawk
Date: 03 Sep 12 - 06:34 PM

I was addressing Sawzaw, actually.

There are many forms of socialism, not just one form of it. Agreed? For instance, there is quite a bit of socialism right now in the western societies we all live in. I live in Canada. It is a society that mixes socialism and capitalism...as do most societies. They can exist side-by-side. They are not mutually exclusive in a mixed economy, and most places have a mixed economy.

They are not an all-or-nothing proposition.

In Canada socialism provides our nation with a public school system, a national radio show, national health insurance coverage, a national TV network, parks, libraries, roads, sewers, a police force, street cleaners, garbage pickup, municipal workers of many types, an armed forces, a secret service, courts, governmental institutions, prisons, local sports facilities, and a host of agencies to accomplish things, many of which...by their very nature...do NOT and CANNOT be run for profit but which still need to be done anyway.

All those things are necessary in order to have a functioning modern society, and they are paid for through our taxes and done by government workers. If they were taken away, we'd no longer have a functioning society. We'd have anarchy and robber bandit gangs.

At the same time, we have millions upon millions of capitalist businesses happening in every sphere of life where a profit can be obtained through individual initiative.

Thus you have socialism and capitalism occurring side by side and in harmony. This is totally normal in most societies.

People who rail against the evils of socialism don't seem to get that, therefore I don't think they really grasp what socialism is. If they think that to be "socialism" it must control absolutely EVERYTHING...this would be as silly as to say that in order to have the feminine gender in existence at all...EVERYONE must become a female.

****

I presume you meant in your comments above that you want people NOT to shut their ears, their eyes and their hearts? If so, you left out the word "not".

A society that does not shut its eyes, ears, and heart will come to the aid of the sick, will help everyone to get a good education, will provide vital public services, will enforce civil law, will provide fair and honest courts, will maintain police and armed forces, will ensure decent wages and working conditions, and WILL encourage self-determination, individual aspiration and genuine community in every way it can, and that is done through a healthy combination of BOTH socialism AND capitalism...not through demonizing one of them and trying to wipe it out.

The Republican Party demonizes the very idea of socialism and turns it into a mythical, fictional boogeyman to terrorize ignorant people into voting Republican. This is an exercise in either dishonesty or extreme ignorance.

Subject: RE: BS: A reassertion of basic American values
From: Little Hawk
Date: 03 Sep 12 - 06:41 PM

Don is dead right about the Scandinavian countries.

A genuine reassertion of basic American values would, at this point, require a 2nd American Revolution. And not one that emanated from the Right. Basic American values have been wiped out quite some time ago by an alliance between corporatism and the military-industrial complex.

Subject: RE: BS: A reassertion of basic American values
From: pdq
Date: 03 Sep 12 - 06:44 PM

Propaganda Minister Firth is using his usual nasty debating trick of accusing people of saying and believing things they did not do, then smiting them for those actions.

I simply gave the quote again with attribution. It was said by Winston Churchill.

Today alone Propaganda Minister Firth has told us what Ayn Rand, several Mudcatters and numerous political folks believe. All absolute fabrications by his badd seff, all intended to smear people simply because they do not share his rather extreme political views.

People are free to say what they believe, not to say (make up) what others believe.

Subject: RE: BS: A reassertion of basic American values
From: Little Hawk
Date: 03 Sep 12 - 06:44 PM

My 2nd to last post was directed to musicmic, Don. Just in case there was any confusion about that.

Subject: RE: BS: A reassertion of basic American values
From: Don Firth
Date: 03 Sep 12 - 07:04 PM

You're raving, pdq.

Your problem is that I'm telling it like it IS. Some folks can't stand that!

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: A reassertion of basic American values
From: Amos
Date: 03 Sep 12 - 07:05 PM

The stupid answer to rejecting socialism is to lash out against anything involving a social contract, social progress, a just society, or any other ideal for the commons, and lash out hard against all such just to be sure they aren't sneaking something y you. What gibberish.

Building a better society is not socialism, you dip-brain.

Socialism as a method of government includes taking over the means of production. THe US Government has veered so far away from that pole that it now outsources everything the military used to do for itself to the private sector, people like Blackwater, and have thereby (unintelligently) seriously inflated the DoD budget even during peacetime.

The US Government has occasionally had to intercede to prevent private business from failing completely--General Motors, Chrysler, Chase, Wells Fargo, etc. etc.--which is the absolute opposite of the "socialism" you are so terrified of. Evidently, you don't mind calling on the commons when your greedy turks have run your business into the ground.

This is ridiculous fatuous mislabeling.

A

Subject: RE: BS: A reassertion of basic American values
From: Don Firth
Date: 03 Sep 12 - 07:10 PM

By the way, pdq, how is it that I'm distorting what Ayn Rand said when

I QUOTED HER DIRECTLY?

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: A reassertion of basic American values
From: Don Firth
Date: 03 Sep 12 - 07:34 PM

Challenge, pdq.

Where, exactly, have I misquoted you or misrepresented what you have said?

Show me.

Or else put up or shut up with your "Propaganda Minister" crap!!

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: A reassertion of basic American values
From: musicmick
Date: 03 Sep 12 - 11:58 PM

Yes, Little Hawk, the right does demonize socialism because they don't know what it is. Modern leftists demonize the kibbutz experience for the same reason. Besides, in today's leftist party line, kibbutz=Jewish=oppressors so how can anything Jewish be OK?
I believe that national health should be as available as national security, and for the same reason. Not even the most rigid rightists would end public education, fire protection, postal service or road maintainence. Just about everyone benefits from Social Security and Medicare and any politician who ran against these benefits would lose in a rout. Americans have spoken in the voting booths and, if they didn't vote our way, maybe, it's time to re-examine the message.
It's easy to throw bricks at America and capitalism but. as long as the American people support it, that's the way it's gonna be.
And, insulting the populace by calling them dupes doesn't seem to draw them to the liberal vision

Subject: RE: BS: A reassertion of basic American values
From: Little Hawk
Date: 04 Sep 12 - 12:02 AM

I love socialism. Without it, my country would be a gutted shell, a wasteland of violence and despair.

I love capitalism too. Without it my country would not have lots of interesting stores and privately run small businesses selling interesting products and providing a great variety of independent possibilities of all kinds to their communities.

I dislike corporatism, because it exists only for enlarging its own bottom line and has no social conscience...nor any loyalty to any nation or social ideal.

Anyone who discounts the good uses and worthy application of both socialism and capitalism in a modern society, and who demonizes either one of them in a kneejerk fashion, has no idea how his own society really functions, doesn't grasp the record of history, has little idea how socialism or capitalism really function, and may well be teetering on the brink of total idiocy...or political fanaticism, which is pretty much the same thing.

Basic American values have always combined socialism and capitalism. So have basic social values everywhere else in the western world.

Subject: RE: BS: A reassertion of basic American values
From: Little Hawk
Date: 04 Sep 12 - 12:38 AM

I agree, musicmic, that many leftists demonize the kibbutz experience. I don't, because I know almost nothing about it. I'd be interested to learn more about it. I do disagree with the general thrust of Zionist policy as it exists in the political state of Israel at present, but that's another matter. It has no bearing on my opinion of kibbutzes. I've lived on some occasions in cooperative communities which may share a good deal in common with a kibbutz, in fact.

I have no objection to Jews whatsoever. There are a significant number of Jews who disagree radically with both Zionism and with present Israeli government policy. I find myself in agreement with those Jews when it comes to the political issues involved.

It isn't capitalism that I have a problem with either...it's multi-national corporatism on a very large scale that I have a problem with, and I think it is destroying the original nature of traditional capitalism, which benefited local communities by providing millions of local jobs and by resulting in genuine competition. Corporatism has destroyed millions of local jobs in the western world by outsourcing them to distant places, mostly to Asia, places where people are so badly paid and treated that it almost amounts to slave labor.

This has been aided and abetted by the western politicians through their so-called "Free Trade" agreements (the removal of protective tariffs on foreign imports from places with tremendously lower wages for their workers than we can possibly afford here). This is wiping out our traditional jobs and industries and destroying our middle class.

The politicians sold out because the corporates own them and control them through lobbying (bribing).

Thus...it is not capitalism I am throwing bricks at. It's corporatism.

Yes, a great many Americans have been duped. So have a great many Canadians. I realize they don't like being told they are dupes...but I figure maybe someone has to tell them. The truth can hurt.

What would you suggest as an alternative approach?

Subject: RE: BS: A reassertion of basic American values
From: kendall
Date: 04 Sep 12 - 06:50 AM

Sawzaw you are so full of shit your eyes must be brown.

I've lived almost 80 years and I've learned a few things on the way.:
Capitalism has failed time after time
Communism has failed
Socialism can not stand alone.
There is only one system that can survive, a combination of capitalism and socialism.I see Germany, Sweden, Norway, Denmark ( the happiest people on earth)Canada and the UK as examples. Of course nothing is perfect and never was or ever will be. As long a human beings run it, it will be fucked up.
Anyone who thinks pure capitalism is the answer doesn't understand the question.

Subject: RE: BS: A reassertion of basic American values
From: Sawzaw
Date: 04 Sep 12 - 07:01 AM

"I predict future happiness for Americans if they can prevent the government from wasting the labors of the people under the pretense of taking care of them."

Subject: RE: BS: A reassertion of basic American values
From: The Sandman
Date: 04 Sep 12 - 07:10 AM

,newt gingrich has a plan health care for every woman and man, it wont cost much and i will tell you why cos when your ill you just go and die. written by tom paxton

Subject: RE: BS: A reassertion of basic American values
From: kendall
Date: 04 Sep 12 - 09:04 AM

We have wasted far more money bombing women and children than we have on social programs.

Subject: RE: BS: A reassertion of basic American values
From: musicmick
Date: 04 Sep 12 - 09:49 AM

America has been coping with the dichotomy of socialism/capitalism for 150 years. It's not the economics that devide us, it's the philosophy. Capitalism is the logical extention of individualism. It values individual rights (freedom, independence, property, inheritence) and is the pioneer spirit that is the American dream.
Socialism is a product of group conciousness and speaks to our sense of interdependence and fair play. Oddly, it calls upon the values of religious tradition. (Oddly, because religion seems to be the watchword of the right)
It is in the spirit of democracy and diversity that America has managed this conflict with so little blood being shed, except for that little incident in the 1860s.
The America haters, on this thread, can jeer but, with all its flaws, America was the first open society and is always the first to pitch in when a catastrophe occurs. (Charity and empathy are part of our natural ethos) Democracy, by definition, is dangerously unpredictable but I'll take it.

Subject: RE: BS: A reassertion of basic American values
From: Ed T
Date: 04 Sep 12 - 11:52 AM

There are many bumpsn along life's highway. Like with a vehicle, a core challenge of a democratic nation is maintaing balance among the values (and interests) of those sharing the same "national" ride. So, to establish harmony, there is a constant need to realign and re-establish balance to rectify any strong "pull to the left" or, any strong "pull to the right" . Is America now in ballance? I suspect time will tell.

Some values for the puzzle

Subject: RE: BS: A reassertion of basic American values
From: GUEST,Stim
Date: 04 Sep 12 - 02:59 PM

There is a theory that "Sawzaw" is not a real person, but that whenever the daily of postings to Mudcat fall below a "critical mass", an annoying thread is opened by "Sawzaw" to stimulate new discussion among the Mudcat regulars.


Just a theory, though.