BS: Petrol in Water Tank - advice?

Subject: BS: Petrol in Water Tank - advice?
From: Geoff the Duck
Date: 10 Nov 12 - 01:44 PM

We just bought an old camper van. When we got it home, Mrs. Duck was showing it to the kids. She pumped the water tap and was surprised to smell what smells suspiciously like petrol. The got out quickly.
I then checked the van, and mopped the liquid with kitchen roll and took it to a fire safe place (an incinerator bin).
I tested the moppings with a flame, and the wet rag would not burn, so obviously NOT neat petrol.
We suspect that someone at the car lot (not camper experts) didn't realise and put some petrol in the water tank filler instead of the petrol one. If this is what has happened, we don't know how much, but I suspect we have a mixture of petrol and water in the tank, and if so, need to make it safe.
In daylight tomorrow, siphoning the tank is probably a starting point, but looking for thoughts on safely getting rid of traces of petrol before we need to drink water from the tank.
Quack!
Geoff the Duck.

Subject: RE: BS: Petrol in Water Tank - advice?
From: EBarnacle
Date: 10 Nov 12 - 01:55 PM

You have a real problem. Unless the tank has a cleaning port, remove it and all the piping to and from it and discard it. Otherwise you will never be completely sure you have removed all of the contaminants. Gasoline is not good for you.

Subject: RE: BS: Petrol in Water Tank - advice?
From: Henry Krinkle
Date: 10 Nov 12 - 02:08 PM

Yea. Replace the tank.
=(:-( ))

Subject: RE: BS: Petrol in Water Tank - advice?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 10 Nov 12 - 02:42 PM

Your tank MUST have a drainage point. So drain it first, refill with a Milton solution, and drain again. I suspect it will still taste of petrol, but it's worth a try.
The most like ly solutiobn will be that suggested already. Replace the tank and piping.
Sorry, but it's an all pervasive taste.

Subject: RE: BS: Petrol in Water Tank - advice?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 10 Nov 12 - 03:06 PM

This hint was given in another forum.
" Use anhydrous isopropyl alcohol, a couple of consumer sized bottles. Widely available, cheap and has great solubility (oretty close to miscible) for diesel and water."


Isopropyl alcohol is toxic, and someone else suggested a couple of bottles of cheap vodka instead :)

Subject: RE: BS: Petrol in Water Tank - advice?
From: Geoff the Duck
Date: 10 Nov 12 - 03:24 PM

When we got home with the van, it was after the place had shut, so not able to speak to them yet.
Also after dark, so can't see properly.
Also, no intention of doing anything which might release petrol fumes to form an explosive mixture.

My background is in biology and a big chunk of working in chemical labs, so am well aware of toxicity of petrol.

Initial thoughts after somehow draining the tank (Will look for drain valves or taps in daylight).
1) Petrol is volatile, so if tank is drained, warm air piped in will evaporate both petrol and water.
If completely evaporated, there should be no residue to produce a flavour.
But if tank cleaning successful, there may be still a mixture in pipes.
2) Alcohol - a solvent which mixes with both petrol and water. Used to be recommended for removing water from petrol tanks at start of winter. In theory should also dissolve petrol in a water pipe.
If petrol reduced to level below toxic dose, a flavour may be annoying but not harmful.
3) Possibly need to replace pipes if alcohol as solvent not effective.

Waiting to see if any mudcatters have direct experience of same problem.
Quack!
Geoff.

Subject: RE: BS: Petrol in Water Tank - advice?
From: Rapparee
Date: 10 Nov 12 - 03:24 PM

Replace the tank and the piping. If the people who sold it to you knew this problem they have some legal responsibility; if it was done by one of their hired hands they have legal responsibility. Talk with them.

Subject: RE: BS: Petrol in Water Tank - advice?
From: Henry Krinkle
Date: 10 Nov 12 - 05:28 PM

Consult your attorney.
=(:-( ))

Subject: RE: BS: Petrol in Water Tank - advice?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 10 Nov 12 - 05:28 PM

Geoff is in England. US barrack room lawyers are not well placed to be of assistance to him.

I think that evaporation will likely leave a residue, but flushing with water - pumping it through - will reduce concentration, I like the idea of a couple of bottles of cheap vodka through the system, and then evaporation with a through draft might do it. Then Milton. It's going to be a hell of a sight cheaper than a new tank and pipes and a hell of a lot easier too.

Subject: RE: BS: Petrol in Water Tank - advice?
From: GUEST,999
Date: 10 Nov 12 - 05:38 PM

Someone here had the same problem.

Subject: RE: BS: Petrol in Water Tank - advice?
From: gnu
Date: 10 Nov 12 - 05:41 PM

I would agree with Richard on the point of "cheaper".

Always change the fuel filter before ya change the gas tank. If it ain't the filter, at least ya got a new filter.

Subject: RE: BS: Petrol in Water Tank - advice?
From: vectis
Date: 10 Nov 12 - 05:53 PM

Hi Geoff

I had exactly the same thing happen to me with my first camper van. The dealer tried everything but never got the system clean.
In the end he replaced all the piping, the pump and the water tank. The water heater was cleanable because it was stainless steel inside. The water tank he put in didn't fit properly and eventually he had a bespoke exact copy of the original made at great expense.

Whatever you do don't try to clean it up just take the whole van back and tell him to a)sort it and b)report back to you exactly what he has done to put it right. Be persistent or he will try to fob you off (as mine did with the first water tank) as it will cost him big time in parts and labour.

His insurance should cover it - if he has any and you should have got a short warranty with the van as you got it from a dealer.

Good luck and if you need more info you can phone anytime I will PM you the number. Mary

Subject: RE: BS: Petrol in Water Tank - advice?
From: kendall
Date: 10 Nov 12 - 05:58 PM

vectis is right. What you have there is a big can of worms.

Subject: RE: BS: Petrol in Water Tank - advice?
From: Brian May
Date: 10 Nov 12 - 06:02 PM

Err . . . do the worms smell too?

Subject: RE: BS: Petrol in Water Tank - advice?
From: Bobert
Date: 10 Nov 12 - 06:04 PM

Gas treatments are used for the opposite problem: water in the gas... They are designed to allow the water and gas to mix rather than separate... Seems that if you used several bottles of gas treatment and pumped the tank out a couple times, allowed to dry with caps off, faucet open and power off to pump that you'd be fine... A lot cheaper than replacing everything...

Good luck...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Petrol in Water Tank - advice?
From: Geoff the Duck
Date: 10 Nov 12 - 06:57 PM

Thanks for initial responses.
I will re-visit here some time after I have had a chance to look in daylight.
Quack!
Geoff.

Subject: RE: BS: Petrol in Water Tank - advice?
From: Henry Krinkle
Date: 10 Nov 12 - 07:15 PM

Why does that dealer have the right to sell you a big problem like that? And it's your problem to deal with it? Take that piece of junk back to him. Get your money back and find one that isn't a health hazard. Don't be a chump.
=(:-( 0)

Subject: RE: BS: Petrol in Water Tank - advice?
From: Bobert
Date: 10 Nov 12 - 07:19 PM

Ya'll know that when RV's are winterized they put an anti-freeze kinda stuff in the lines to keep them from freezing and busting... It's not like anti-freeze in a car's radiator... It's stronger than windshield wiper fluid... It does have an odor...

Might just be that???

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Petrol in Water Tank - advice?
From: EBarnacle
Date: 10 Nov 12 - 08:16 PM

Water tank anti freeze is usually red in the US. If it is that, it can be flushed out. If not and the camper is older, it is probably time to replace the tank anyway.

Subject: RE: BS: Petrol in Water Tank - advice?
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 10 Nov 12 - 08:19 PM

Stop the checks or contact your credit-card company. Take the RV back and get a different one. Bobert has a good point about winterizing, but no way should chemicals be in the drinking water.

Subject: RE: BS: Petrol in Water Tank - advice?
From: Bobert
Date: 10 Nov 12 - 08:22 PM

I donno, E-barn...

I gotta a 1953 Spartanette and everything is still fine... Plus, getting to a lot of them tanks ain't all that easy... Some of them older campers started out with mechanical systems and the camper built around them... Ain't like changing a tire on these things...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Petrol in Water Tank - advice?
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 10 Nov 12 - 08:28 PM

On ALL RVs that carry fresh water in onboard tanks, there MUST be a drain, usually a "quarter turn tap," like this on towables, but sometimes elsewhere and a different kind on self-propelled ones. It will be located somewhere as low as possible, and on towables is usually at the front, below the hitch bar. This tap only drains the fresh water tank itself.

The fresh water tank will have a "fill hole" that's around 2 inches in diameter so you can "pour" water in or insert a hose to fill.

The RV quite probably also has a pump and in the US usually will have a hot water heater, and considerable other "plumbing" that will need to be separately drained. There usually is a hose connection to connect a "garden hose," here usually labelled "City Water." This connection will normally be on the opposite side from the fresh water tank, since it is intended to be connected from a supply tap that's normally near the same place you connect your external electric (AC), and filling the fresh water tank usually produces significant spillage.

There likely will be two additional drain points that just look like a couple of "water pipes pointing down" with "caps" on the end, although some may have had taps installed that's are just a valve you can turn on or off. These usually will be close to the hot water heater tank. One pipe drains the cold water supply and the other drains the hot water side of the system.

The hot water tank also will have its own drain plug, also sometimes with a valve installed but as often just a (male) plug screwed into the side of the tank.

ALL OF THE DRAINS must be opened, and faucets etc inside turned on to let as much water as possible drain out before storing the RV any time freezing is possible.

Additionally, at least in the US, most people put a "hose adapter" on the "city water" (hose connection) inlet**. The adapter has what looks like an "auto tire valve stem" you can connect an air hose to, to blow as much residual water out of the lines as possible. When each drain "blows dry" you may need to put it's cap/plug back on loosely, to get enough flow to fully clear the next line, and may need to "cycle" the faucets, for reasonably complete clearance. (You'd usually remove all the caps/plugs when finished. Just don't lose them before you fire up the next time.)

"RV AntiFreeze" is available here, all of which claim to be safe for potable water tanks but most people here put it only in the "blackwater" (body waste) tank, in the "greywater" (sink drain waste) and in the sink/tub U-traps. The fresh water storage trap is usually just drained as completely as possible, and all of the lines "blown dry."

Some people do put the "RV Antifreeze" in their fresh water tanks, and that may be the odor you smell. The usual recommendation on the jugs for cleaning the system when you're getting ready the next season is that you:

- drain completely,
- refil the fresh water tank and
- drain again
- repeat

You may want to cycle the faucets (with pump on) each time you fill, to get residuals out of the lines, as well.

It's most likely that the odor you're getting is from "RV Antifreeze" that was put in the tanks. You might want to just get a jug of it for "comparison sniffing" before proceding to extreme measures. Most of it smells pretty much the same.

(According to the experts, you should have a female help with the sniff test, since usually they're more subtly attuned to offensive stinks - possibly an evolved feature in order to detect dirty old men.)

** Note that in the US and Canada, the "plumbing" in RVs is generally designed for a maximum of about 50 psi. Most city water systems run at 30 to 45 psi, although there are higher pressures on some local systems. Should you use the RV at "fairgrounds" or "parks" the water outlets may be at 150 psi or higher for their "industrial sprinklers" and could bust your internal plumbing and/or make you hoses look like an anaconda that's swallowed a pig. If in doubt, you'll want a "regulator" on the inlet to your hose (good ones abut $9.00 US here) to protect the system. They're usually preset at about 40 psi. (I carry a water pressure gage to check before connecting.) You also probably don't want to use air over about 70 psi to blow out the lines when you winterize.

John

Subject: RE: BS: Petrol in Water Tank - advice?
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 10 Nov 12 - 10:55 PM

There is the possibility of course that someone did put gasoline/petrol in the water tank by accident.

As pointed out by a couple of people, alcohol will allow a small amount of water in a gasoline tank to be absorbed into the gasoline, but unfortunately it doesn't work too well for a small amount of petrol in a large amount of water. The alcohol will be diluted into the water to such a low concentration that it will be unable to pick up more than miniscule amounts/percentages of the petrol.

Almost any country kid that's ever had a "Kentucky Credit Card" (a.k.a siphon hose) knows that "wet gas" can be separated by pouring the mixture through a chamois, but it only works with the real skin and the synthetic imitations, that may not be labeled as such, won't work.

Gasoline/petrol will run through a wet chamois, but the water won't, so draping a chamois in a large funnel and pouring it all through will get reasonably "dry" petrol out at the bottom.

If you can separate out enough liquid that goes through, it should be dry enough to burn if it's petrol, although after you've drained the tank once there's likely to be too small an amount to get a sample of the separable mightbepetrol for testing.

If the odor is from an RV Antifreeze there's likely to be nothing much at all that will filter through. The "anti-freeze" used is usually ethyl/ehtylene alcohol, that's so miscible with water that when the skin stops the water the alcohol stops - and stays - with it.

The chamois filter is handy if you've got an actual gas/petrol tank that's accumulated a fair amount of water it. I once separated out almost 6 gallons of usable gasoline from an "almost full" 12 gallon tank when a step-kid's car quite running on him. The rest was all water.

The car ran just fine with the water removed.

John

Subject: RE: BS: Petrol in Water Tank - advice?
From: Henry Krinkle
Date: 11 Nov 12 - 03:42 AM

Listen to leeneia.
Don't be a chump.
=(:-( D)

Subject: RE: BS: Petrol in Water Tank - advice?
From: Roger the Skiffler
Date: 11 Nov 12 - 07:40 AM

While you're doing all the cleaning and filtering listen to Sonny & Brownie or Champion Jack singing "Under Your Hood".

You've got water in your gas tank baby
Your motor she don't fire at all X2
Try a fill of my 100 octane
We'll really have a ball

or something like that!

RtS

Subject: RE: BS: Petrol in Water Tank - advice?
From: EBarnacle
Date: 11 Nov 12 - 07:03 PM

If the tank is aluminum, which was common when the trailer was built, it should be changed out anyway as a matter of principle. So you may have an advantageous problem.

Subject: RE: BS: Petrol in Water Tank - advice?
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 11 Nov 12 - 07:24 PM

Maybe I missed it, but I haven't seen how old "old RV" is, or for sure whether it's a self-contained (built on a truck chassis) or a trailer.

There haven't been any of either built in the US in the past 15 or 20 years that use much of anything other than plastic for the storage tanks (like hot tubs) so far as I've seen. The tanks are generally expected outlast the rest of the unit, and in most cases are put in place before minor details like floors and walls and such are laid in place around them, so a tank replacement is a major reconstruction of the whole thing. Accessibility may be better in very large units, but still is likely to be "inconvenient." Most of the plumbing most likely will be plastic, although stainless steel (even thinner than for household use) sinks and a few other items are fairly common for the sake of appearance.

There probably are exceptions, and practices elsewhere may be different.

Enlightenment appreciated about what kind of beast we're trying to tame ...(?)

John

Subject: RE: BS: Petrol in Water Tank - advice?
From: Geoff the Duck
Date: 12 Nov 12 - 08:32 AM

Not an American "House on Wheels" John. A Ford Transit van with high roof - about the size of Skooby Doo's mystery machine. Bought from people who sell cars not campers, so exchange for different one not an option.
Water tank is plastic and fastened to underside of van. No obvious drain tap, but outlet pipe easily accessible if I need to drain it that way.
Not planning on doing anything until I have had opportunity to inspect things properly. I may just decide water system is due to be updated anyway.
Quack!
GtD.

Subject: RE: BS: Petrol in Water Tank - advice?
From: Gurney
Date: 12 Nov 12 - 03:49 PM

There is also the possibility of algae contamination. Who knows where the tank has been filled!
The ideal thing to my mind would be to get it steamcleaned, if possible.
First thing I'd do is to empty the tank, fill the thing with a mild solution of Sugar-Soap, remove the solution next day (to use to wash the van with) then stick the hose into it to the bottom, and let it run. Petrol floats, but it also sticks, somewhat.

I have an vague idea that petrol is not especially poisonous, but I'd check, in your place.
There may even be a trapdoor on the top of the tank, for problems such as yours, or indeed, you could make one with a piece of plastic/fibreglass and drivescrews. Arranged with a gasket where it could only leak when the tank was absolutely full.

Brush manufacturers can make bottle-brushes of any size with stalks as long as you specify, for the pipes.
Then you only have the pump to clean. :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Petrol in Water Tank - advice?
From: Henry Krinkle
Date: 12 Nov 12 - 03:53 PM

Petroleum is deadly poisonous.
=(:-( 0)

Subject: RE: BS: Petrol in Water Tank - advice?
From: Gurney
Date: 12 Nov 12 - 09:19 PM

Well, Henry, you COULD kill yourself with it, but you'd be trying very hard to! Most of the websearch problems seem to come about animals that try to groom it from their coats.
WikiHowTo gives advice when petroleum is ingested, neat, usually when siphoning it. I've had the odd mouthful, doing that, tetraethyllead included, and I'm still around. Geoff's problems stem from much smaller and dilute quantities.
But yes, I'd still try to get every trace out, anyway. I'd just try to get it out of the existing system. How hard can it be?

Maybe just change the pipework, that'd be cheap.
Buy some stainless flat or cheesehead drivescrews and a fibreglass patch kit from a chandler, vaseline the top of the tank (so that the fibreglass doesn't stick) and make a patch as big as the kit will allow on it and wait until the patch hardens. Mark around it, and then jigsaw a hole in the tank 1.25" all round smaller than the marking.
Get the inside of the tank steamcleaned at a garage.
Predrill the edge of the patch at 1.5" intervals with a clearance size for the screws, offer the patch up, mark a couple of opposed holes on the tank, drill them with a drill the same size at the central part of the screws ignoring the thread. Fit the patch, drill the rest of the holes, fit the rest of the screws.
Remove the patch, sand off any loose fibres, wash out the filings from the tank, seal the patch overlap with plumber's putty or silicone or something, and fit it.

Run pipes from the pump inlet and from the spout into a bucket of detergent solution and circulate the stuff until you are happy.
Don't ignore this bit. Petrol denatures some rubbers, and there is certainly rubber in the pump.

Subject: RE: BS: Petrol in Water Tank - advice?
From: Henry Krinkle
Date: 13 Nov 12 - 01:41 AM

A disgusting problem. My blood would be boiling.
=(:-( O)

Subject: RE: BS: Petrol in Water Tank - advice?
From: Geoff the Duck
Date: 13 Nov 12 - 05:26 AM

Hi Gurney - I can access the tank and outlet pipe, so don't think patches are required. As you say drinking traces of petrol won't kill you. Oral toxicity is low. It's breathing fumes that is dangerous. - Health Protection information sheet.
Steam is a sensible idea which I was already considering - should evaporate and flush any petrol traces.
I am also well aware that petrol can degrade rubber and that the pipes and pumping system would need to be cleaned thoroughly and checked properly. I am looking at possibly upgrading to a battery operated electric pump, so may just replace the lot.
Quack!
Geoff.

Subject: RE: BS: Petrol in Water Tank - advice?
From: GUEST,KP
Date: 13 Nov 12 - 01:01 PM

HI Geoff,
For what its worth I'm a chemist who used to work for an oil company, and this is how I'd try to clean up your water tank (or get your vendor to do to for you). This assumes the tank is metal (see below).

Petrol/gasoline is a mixture of aliphatic (like iso-octane) and aromatic (like benzene) hydrocarbons. The latter are toxic, the former less so. Neither can be washed out using anything water-based as the stuff is immiscible - it separates at high quantities but forms tiny globules at ppm amounts (which is all you need to taste bad). Environmental agencies use a lot of detergents to clean out oil spills but these are more toxic in some cases than the hydrocarbon. Soda, bleach etc won't be helpful, as most of the hydrocarbon won't react with it.

However your petrol is volatile (lucky it's not diesel), so I'd completely empty the water tank, disconnect any pipes in or out, and blast air through the tank. We'd do this with nitrogen or argon ('sparging') in cases of severe contamination. You might connect up a leaf blower or vacuum cleaner. This treatment should cause any petrol to evaporate and be blown away - it'll probably clear out any other muck in the bottom of the tank as well.

What I then would do is to replace any plastic pipe or seals that the petrol might have come into contact with. Firstly the petrol could partly dissolve and weaken the plastic, secondly it could extract additives in the plastic which you would want to to drink, thirdly it could get absorbed by the plastic and seep out over a longer period, continuing to taint your water. If the whole tank is plastic then I'd say its a replacement job.

Hope this helps

KP

Subject: RE: BS: Petrol in Water Tank - advice?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 13 Nov 12 - 01:09 PM

A Jabsco pump, not cheap, and an in line pressure switch, very cheap, will sort out your ability to use the tank efficiently. As it's mounted underneath, I'd be tempted to lower it and steam clean it while detached. You'll get a better result that way. Milton is what I use to sterilise my water tank in my motorhome.

Subject: RE: BS: Petrol in Water Tank - advice?
From: Geoff the Duck
Date: 14 Nov 12 - 06:29 AM

KP -Thanks for the thoughts and info.
Quack!
Geoff.

Subject: RE: BS: Petrol in Water Tank - advice?
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 14 Nov 12 - 08:06 AM

If you decide to replumb things, I would suggest that you talk to a good RV dealer about getting the components you will need. There are lots of "little things" that are nicely packaged for installation that could save you a lot of time and frustration now and later on. Also recommended - some care in making sure that all the lines are lashed down appropriately, since road vibration can be exceedingly destructive to "household make-do" stuff you might be tempted to think about using.

If you want an electric water pump the RV shops should have compact ones with built-in pressure switches, that are designed to maintain pressure in a closed line. Many other kinds of pumps don't survive well without an accumulator so that the shutoff pressure is "soft," while the ones made for RVs are intended for that kind of use.

The RV stuff is likely to be a little higher priced, and there's not a big objection to rigging your own stuff, but it's something to look at when you're redesigning.

If you add an electric pump, you may want to consider a secondary battery and isolator so that the water pump doesn't run down the vehicle battery when you wash the dishes a couple of times while parked and pickin'. A controller that you can hook up to AC that will provide DC for everything (including keeping a battery charged) could be considered (if there isn't already one there) but the good ones are kind of expensive. The alternative might be just a small "dedicated battery charger" you can plug in when there's an outlet handy. Relying on running the engine to keep the battery charged gets really risky if you park for more than an overnight, unless you're really careful (voice of my experience).

John

Subject: RE: BS: Petrol in Water Tank - advice?
From: vectis
Date: 14 Nov 12 - 11:31 AM

Take it back to the dealer.

Get your money back.

Buy my van from me before I emigrate.

I've got my coat, now where's the door.....