BS: Was Abe Really All That Honest?

Subject: BS: Was He Really All That Honest?
From: Henry Krinkle
Date: 12 Nov 12 - 07:04 AM

I don't think so.
Not So Honest As You'd Notice

=(:-( o)

Subject: RE: BS: Was He Really All That Honest?
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 12 Nov 12 - 08:35 AM

And your point is.....?

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Was He Really All That Honest?
From: Jim Dixon
Date: 12 Nov 12 - 08:57 AM

I can't read the article. The web site says I have to log in to see it, and I get strange warning messages from my browser when I try to log in, as if the web site may be malicious.

Subject: RE: BS: Was He Really All That Honest?
From: Jim Dixon
Date: 12 Nov 12 - 09:03 AM

Oddly enough, though, when I searched for the article with Google, it led me to this page, which does not require logging in. I think it may be the same article in a different format:

http://articles.chicagotribune.com/2012-11-11/business/ct-perspec-1111-things-20121111_1_lincoln-property-thomas-lincoln-bixby-letter

Subject: RE: BS: Was He Really All That Honest?
From: GUEST,999
Date: 12 Nov 12 - 09:09 AM

It's the same article, Mr Dixon.

Subject: RE: BS: Was He Really All That Honest?
From: Jim Dixon
Date: 12 Nov 12 - 09:11 AM

The article does not even address the question of Lincoln's honesty.

Subject: RE: BS: Was He Really All That Honest?
From: Greg F.
Date: 12 Nov 12 - 09:22 AM

Just more childish BS from ShitSlinger Krunkle. Ignore it.

Subject: RE: BS: Was He Really All That Honest?
From: Henry Krinkle
Date: 12 Nov 12 - 09:54 AM

He wanted to deport all the negoes to an island off the coast of Haiti. Failing at that, he wanted to turn Massachusetts into a Little Africa. He didn't love them so much after all.
=(:-( ))

Subject: RE: BS: Was He Really All That Honest?
From: GUEST,999
Date: 12 Nov 12 - 10:53 AM

I'd hate for facts to get in the way of a good discussion, but y'all might care to read the following link. Take ya two minutes.

http://condor.depaul.edu/tps/Abraham_Lincoln_an_Abolitionist_Lincoln_Quotes_on_Slavery.htm

Subject: RE: BS: Was He Really All That Honest?
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 12 Nov 12 - 11:16 AM

I find it amusing that there is a thread 'questioning' the honesty of one of our Presidents!..Shit, this isn't a 'news flash', is it..shit, just look at the guy we got in NOW! Whether you like him or not, you can't say with a straight face or ANY credibility at all, that our Presidents, especially this one, or ANY in recent memory can be seen as 'honest' people...shit..how do you think they got to be President??..by telling the truth????????????????????

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Was He Really All That Honest?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 12 Nov 12 - 11:18 AM

Plenty of interesting stuff there, 999. On the one hand, it shows that Lincoln saw through the hypocrisy of a system which declares that "all men are created equal", yet treats some men as slaves.

And on the other hand, that he did see whites as inherently superior to blacks in certain respects (moral? intellectual? etc?)...this probably being an almost universal assumption among whites at the time. God knows, it was an assumption my own European grandparents and my father clearly made without even thinking about the matter! (I know this from certain casual remarks they made or jokes they told now and then.) And that was much more recently than the days of Abe Lincoln.

So...you can cherry pick carefully amongst Lincoln's recorded writings to prove 2 opposing viewpoints... either that:

1. he was a noble man fighting to free the blacks

or

2. he was a prejudiced son of a bitch

Yes, you can do that....provided you are willing to conveniently overlook and ignore vital things like cultural and historical context, just so you can score some kind of abrasive political point that makes YOU feel clever or righteous! ;-D

The "you" I'm referring to in the above is just humanity in general who might do this. Any of us, in other words. I'm not directing it specifically at 999 or Henry or anyone else here...merely cautioning one and all to pay some attention to historical context when it comes to stuff like this.

Subject: RE: BS: Was He Really All That Honest?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 12 Nov 12 - 11:25 AM

GfS - Yeah...the profession of politics seems to demand a certain level of dishonesty, doesn't it? ;-) Perhaps this is because a politician is basically a salesman...on a very large scale. He's constantly trying to sell certain big ideas and proposals to a public who usually just want to be left alone. Thus he has to dress those ideas up in glorious language and make them sound probably a lot better than they actually are.

Then too, he's a fig leaf stuck on an endemically dishonest and money-driven system...so how the hell could he possibly remain honest and still function in that role?

Subject: RE: BS: Was He Really All That Honest?
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 12 Nov 12 - 11:32 AM

Little Hawk: "GfS - Yeah...the profession of politics seems to demand a certain level of dishonesty, doesn't it? ;-)"

It is a prerequisite on the entry level!!

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Was He Really All That Honest?
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 12 Nov 12 - 11:37 AM

""you can't say with a straight face or ANY credibility at all, that our Presidents, especially this one, or ANY in recent memory can be seen as 'honest' people...shit..how do you think they got to be President??..by telling the truth?""

To a large extent the latest one DID get there by telling the truth, or at least sticking several miles closer to it than his opponent, the wannabe Pres who signally failed, entirely due to being a pathological liar who expected that voters would be stupid enough to believe his lies.

Wipe that egg off your face Goofus, and live with the fact that US voters proved they weren't quite that stupid.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Was He Really All That Honest?
From: Henry Krinkle
Date: 12 Nov 12 - 12:04 PM

Time will tell. And my family's motto is: Truth Prevails.
=(:-( ))

Subject: RE: BS: Was He Really All That Honest?
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 12 Nov 12 - 12:08 PM

DonT: "Wipe that egg off your face Goofus, and live with the fact that US voters proved they weren't quite that stupid."

"You can fool some of the people all of the time, and all of the people some of the time, but you can not fool all of the people all of the time."--Abraham Lincoln

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Was He Really All That Honest?
From: GUEST,TIA
Date: 12 Nov 12 - 12:16 PM

Good quote, but sketchy attribution.
No proof of who actually said it first.
Has been variously credited to Lincoln, PT Barnum, Mark Twain, and several others.

Best quote along these lines is from GW Bush:
"You can fool some of the people all the time, and those are the ones you want to concentrate on."

Subject: RE: BS: Was He Really All That Honest?
From: GUEST,Chongo Chimp
Date: 12 Nov 12 - 12:47 PM

That's right! Those "some of the people" that ya can fool ALL the time ARE the core of any successful insane policy, and ya gotta nurture them constantly and tell 'em exactly what they want to hear. For example:

"Saddam DID have WMDs. He had 'em comin' out the yingyang. The reason we couldn't find any there was...he moved 'em to...ummm...Syria? Yeah, that's it! He moved 'em to Syria! And that's why we gotta take out Bashar al-Assad now!"

"And...Israel IS our greatest friend. And they love peace and brotherhood just like we do. And they never attacked no one that didn't deserve to be "taken out" or just plain exterminated, no siree. And we gotta back 'em all the way in whatever they do to protect OUR freedom!"

"And...all these American and Allied soldiers who die in the foreign wars...what do they die FOR? For our freedom, that's what! Yessir, you would NOT be able to freely go to Walmart and buy Chinese crap no more nor eat at McDonalds and get fat and unhealthy no more if not for all them soldiers heroically dyin' for YOUR freedom in poverty-stricken places halfway acrost the world."

Will everyone believe stuff like that? No! But some people will believe it...cos some people will believe absolutely anything their leaders tell them. It is those some people who are the lynchpin of any successful government policy that insults the average intelligence and violates common moral precepts...and those some people have gotta be catered to constantly, faithfully, and without shame!

Ya got that figgered out and yer on yer way to home base, politically speakin'.

- Chongo

Subject: RE: BS: Was He Really All That Honest?
From: Henry Krinkle
Date: 12 Nov 12 - 12:53 PM

Apparently the Czech Republic appropriated my family's motto.
=(:-( D)

Subject: RE: BS: Was He Really All That Honest?
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 12 Nov 12 - 12:55 PM

TIA: "Has been variously credited to Lincoln, PT Barnum, Mark Twain, and several others."

A President, a storyteller, and a circus owner...hmm, ya' think there is a common thread here?
Good post, TIA,..Lincoln is the oldest of all those, but you are correct in regards to who actually said it first. Lincoln is generally credited for the expression...that is if you believe the historians, who occasionally re-write history....to fool some one!!!

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Was He Really All That Honest?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 12 Nov 12 - 12:59 PM

Bob Dylan said it too, paraphrased it...(grin)...and then he would make some additional quip like, "T.S. Elliot said that".

Subject: RE: BS: Was He Really All That Honest?
From: GUEST,999
Date: 12 Nov 12 - 01:18 PM

Here ya go, LH.

Talkin' World War III Blues, last verse:

Well, now time passed and now it seems
Everybody's having them dreams.
Everybody sees themselves walkin' around with no one else.
Half of the people can be part right all of the time,
Some of the people can be all right part of the time,
But all of the people can't be all right all of the time.
I think Abraham Lincoln said that.
"I'll let you be in my dreams if I can be in yours."
I said that.

Subject: RE: BS: Was He Really All That Honest?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 12 Nov 12 - 01:25 PM

Yeah. ;-) In the original recording, he said "Abraham Lincoln". In live shows he said all kinds of other hilarious stuff, depending on the show. One time it might be T.S. Elliot. Another time it might be Allen Ginsberg or Cassius Clay or some other famous name of the time...

I always really enjoyed Bob's quirky sense of humour.

Subject: RE: BS: Was He Really All That Honest?
From: Henry Krinkle
Date: 12 Nov 12 - 01:42 PM

He beat the family mare to make her work harder. What a bastard. I'm glad he got kicked the head. And it's no wonder. I'd kick him in the head too.
Bastard

Subject: RE: BS: Was He Really All That Honest?
From: CET
Date: 12 Nov 12 - 01:44 PM

"Subject: RE: BS: Was He Really All That Honest?
From: Henry Krinkle - PM
Date: 12 Nov 12 - 09:54 AM

He wanted to deport all the negoes to an island off the coast of Haiti. Failing at that, he wanted to turn Massachusetts into a Little Africa. He didn't love them so much after all.
=(:-( ))"

And do you have a point lurking in there somewhere? Do you seriously think that this is a significant historical breakthrough? Anybody who has studied Civil War history knows that Lincoln didn't think that blacks were equal to whites, and that he was prepared to live with slavery as long it didn't spread to the western territories. That he thought emigration to Africa might be a solution to the race problem is no news at all. Where's the dishonesty? He's still the greatest President to my mind. He could see further than any other politician of his time.

Subject: RE: BS: Was He Really All That Honest?
From: Henry Krinkle
Date: 12 Nov 12 - 01:54 PM

He was a murderer and war criminal in my mind. Somebody should have shot him for what he ordered Sherman to do to Georgia.
=(:-( 0)

Subject: RE: BS: Was He Really All That Honest?
From: Henry Krinkle
Date: 12 Nov 12 - 01:58 PM

And he commited genocide against the aboriginal peoples.
=(:-( 0)

Subject: RE: BS: Was He Really All That Honest?
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 12 Nov 12 - 02:05 PM

Abraham Lincoln, the man who said 'Yes!' to the largest mass hanging in America...of Native Americans, of course..

Here is the most moving film of those who decided to pay Respect to their Ancestors, and to recognize that wrong was done on both sides, but they wanted to step up and make their apologies...

Personally, I think the Native Americans are the ones who deserve the apology, for had they not been starving and told to 'eat grass' by the good ol' whiteman, then what followed would *never* have happened...

I make no apology whatsoever if this film makes you cry, for they have shed so many more tears than all of us put together...

Way past time The World had the guts to face up, BIGTIME, to the horrors that happened back then..and for Obama to stop pussyfooting around and make a PROPER APOLOGY to the very People he promised to help when he was first elected.

'DAKOTA 38'

Subject: RE: BS: Was He Really All That Honest?
From: Henry Krinkle
Date: 12 Nov 12 - 02:19 PM

Thank you Lizzie. Dishonest Abe gets off the hook too often for his genocidal mania.
=(:-( o)

Subject: RE: BS: Was He Really All That Honest?
From: Don Firth
Date: 12 Nov 12 - 02:20 PM

Well, well, well!

We've got a COUPLE of people pissing in the punchbowl!

Nothing better to do with their lives, I guess.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Was He Really All That Honest?
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 12 Nov 12 - 02:24 PM

Would you care to explain your remark, Don?

Subject: RE: BS: Was He Really All That Honest?
From: Henry Krinkle
Date: 12 Nov 12 - 02:28 PM

He was to the Native Americans as Hitler was to the Jews.
=(:-( 0)

Subject: RE: BS: Was He Really All That Honest?
From: Stringsinger
Date: 12 Nov 12 - 02:28 PM

Lincoln was a politician of his time. At first he didn't believe that black people were the equal of white. The Missouri Compromise was about keeping the slave state if the state would be a member of the Union.

Lincoln probably changed quite a bit in office, maybe not honoring equality, but at least alleviating the suffering and the continuance of slavery.

However, the American Civil War was fought over the issue of slavery despite the "Confederate" deniers. State's rights had to do with slavery, primarily.

Subject: RE: BS: Was He Really All That Honest?
From: Henry Krinkle
Date: 12 Nov 12 - 02:33 PM

Imagine any world leader hanging 38 men at one time.
Disgusting.
=(:-( o)

Subject: RE: BS: Was He Really All That Honest?
From: gnu
Date: 12 Nov 12 - 03:46 PM

Imagine someone cutting a baby out of a pregnant woman and nailing it to a tree.

What our Native Brothers endured was horrific, but the ACCUSED actions of some (yes, I KNOW, nobody can prove the sickening "accounts" of the murder, rape and torture) had to be dealt with. Tell me if I understand why the hangings took place... over 800 non-military settlers were killed? The hangings were the miniumum Lincoln could do to avoid whites seeking revenge after the natives were "defeated". Had none of the natives been punished for the accused "crimes" against the settlers, far more would have died.

I know many will think that my questions are "disgusting" but I attempt to understand what white settlers were actually doing. They were surviving by developing land and hunting and fishing. That land, it's resources and the way of life it provided to the natives was taken from the natives by the whites... by the barrel of a gun. Right or wrong at this point is moot to me because the shitty end of the stick is still being stuck into our Native Brothers and THAT is what I find truly disgusting.

In other words, it's been done the whole world over for centuries. Why?

Subject: RE: BS: Was He Really All That Honest?
From: Henry Krinkle
Date: 12 Nov 12 - 03:51 PM

Just research the Massacre at Sand Creek. Those Indians were peaceful and friendly.
=(:-( O)

Subject: RE: BS: Was He Really All That Honest?
From: gnu
Date: 12 Nov 12 - 03:58 PM

What has Sand Creek got to do with the hangings?

Subject: RE: BS: Was He Really All That Honest?
From: GUEST,TIA
Date: 12 Nov 12 - 04:01 PM

During the Sand Creek massacre, Black Kettle called for his people to wrap themselves in a giant US flag that had been given to him by Lincoln. They were shot and bayonetted right through the flag...while (to add a musical aside) the military band played "Garry Owen".

Still, Chivington seems more to blame (directly at least) than Lincoln.

Subject: RE: BS: Was He Really All That Honest?
From: Henry Krinkle
Date: 12 Nov 12 - 04:07 PM

They commited so many atrocities that day. And Abe was the Commander in Chief.
I hold him just as responsible.
=(:-( 0)

Subject: RE: BS: Was He Really All That Honest?
From: gnu
Date: 12 Nov 12 - 04:13 PM

I WOULD ask again, what does Sand Creek have to do with the hangings?

Are we to discuss ALL of the atrocities that happened in the world over written history? How do such discussions relate to the questions I ask?

But, never mind. I know nobody will discuss them and no good will ever come from my asking any more.

gnightgnu

Subject: RE: BS: Was He Really All That Honest?
From: Henry Krinkle
Date: 12 Nov 12 - 04:19 PM

We are discussing Lincoln's character. And I think he was murderous.
=(:-( 0)

Subject: RE: BS: Was He Really All That Honest?
From: Don Firth
Date: 12 Nov 12 - 04:30 PM

STOOPUD!!!

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Was He Really All That Honest?
From: Henry Krinkle
Date: 12 Nov 12 - 05:01 PM

Yes Don. You are rather stupid. But you're just a victim of organized propaganda instilled in you by public education.
I pity the fool.
=(:-( D)

Subject: RE: BS: Was He Really All That Honest?
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 12 Nov 12 - 05:58 PM

Perhaps, had Lincoln been the man so many think him to be, he might have had the guts to explain that when you watch your People starting to starve to death, something inside you 'snaps', especially when you've watched other horrific atrocities happening to them too, coupled with being told to eat grass by an inhumane human, making that combination lethal.

(please see film link above)..and images of the 38 hanged men ended up on an ornate tin of a brewery company(?!!?)(see link below)

Also, some of the bodies were dug up, very shortly after death and used for medical research by William Mayo, amongst others...

Below you can read what these 'civilized' people did to those they considered to be 'savages'

Taken from here:Wiki - The Dakota War of 1862


>>>Execution

One of the 39 condemned prisoners was granted a reprieve.[13]:252-259[17] The Army executed the 38 remaining prisoners by hanging on December 26, 1862, in Mankato, Minnesota. It remains the largest mass execution in American history.
Drawing of the 1862 mass hanging in Mankato, Minnesota.
Wa-kan-o-zhan-zhan (Medicine Bottle)

The mass execution was performed publicly on a single scaffold platform. After regimental surgeons pronounced the prisoners dead, they were buried en masse in a trench in the sand of the riverbank. Before they were buried, an unknown person nicknamed "Dr. Sheardown" possibly removed some of the prisoners' skin.[18] Small boxes purportedly containing the skin later were sold in Mankato.

At least two Sioux leaders, Little Six and Medicine Bottle, escaped to Canada. They were captured, drugged and returned to the United States. They were hanged at Fort Snelling in 1865.[19]
Medical aftermath

Because of high demand for cadavers for anatomical study, several doctors wanted to obtain the bodies after the execution. The grave was reopened in the night and the bodies were distributed among the doctors, a practice common in the era. The doctor who received the body of Mahpiya Okinajin (He Who Stands in Clouds), also known as "Cut Nose", was William Worrall Mayo.

Mayo brought the body of Mahpiya Okinajin to Le Sueur, Minnesota, where he dissected it in the presence of medical colleagues.[20]:77-78 Afterward, he had the skeleton cleaned, dried and varnished. Mayo kept it in an iron kettle in his home office. His sons received their first lessons in osteology from this skeleton[20]:167 In the late 20th century, the identifiable remains of Mahpiya Okinajin and other Native Americans were returned by the Mayo Clinic to a Dakota tribe for reburial per the Native American Graves Protection and Repatriation Act.[21][full citation needed]
Internment

The remaining convicted Indians stayed in prison that winter. The following spring they were transferred to Camp McClellan in Davenport, Iowa,[22] where they were held in prison for almost four years. By the time of their release, one third of the prisoners had died of disease. The survivors were sent with their families to Nebraska. Their families had already been expelled from Minnesota.
Pike Island internment
Dakota internment camp, Fort Snelling, winter 1862
Little Crow's wife and two children at Fort Snelling prison compound, 1864

During this time, more than 1600 Dakota women, children and old men were held in an internment camp on Pike Island, near Fort Snelling, Minnesota. Living conditions and sanitation were poor, and infectious disease struck the camp, killing more than three hundred.[23] In April 1863 the U.S. Congress abolished the reservation, declared all previous treaties with the Dakota null and void, and undertook proceedings to expel the Dakota people entirely from Minnesota. To this end, a bounty of $25 per scalp was placed on any Dakota found free within the boundaries of the state.[citation needed] The only exception to this legislation applied to 208 Mdewakanton, who remained neutral or assisted white settlers in the conflict.

In May 1863 Dakota survivors were forced aboard steamboats and relocated to the Crow Creek Reservation, in the southeastern Dakota Territory, a place stricken by drought at the time. Many of the survivors of Crow Creek moved three years later to the Niobrara Reservation in Nebraska...>>>

Standard Brewing Company 'commemorative'(?)tin of Mankato Hangings

Subject: RE: BS: Was He Really All That Honest?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 12 Nov 12 - 06:14 PM

The story of Native Americans in the USA is just one long saga of atrocity, theft, and betrayal. For a very complete account, read Dee Brown's book "Bury My Heart at Wounded Knee". Similar accounts could be written regarding the bloody American occupation of the Phillipines following the Spanish-American War, and it doesn't end there. It's always been about enlarging empire, gaining resources, land, and money...not about any recognizable moral code.

But.....gnu - Your point is also a valid one. Native American war parties committed many terrible (and some almost unbelievable) atrocities against white civilians and white military and civilian prisoners during various conflicts between the Natives and the Whites...and this naturally led to violent retaliation by the Whites when they captured or defeated Natives.

There were many atrocities committed on both sides. Both sides were naturally outraged by these acts, and they both responded, often, with further dreadful atrocities.

It's about time we all did our best to forgive this terrible past, accept that it happened, and resolve that our shared future will NOT repeat it...or inflict the guilt and anger of it upon someone else in some other place entirely.

Subject: RE: BS: Was He Really All That Honest?
From: Rapparee
Date: 12 Nov 12 - 07:04 PM

None of that stuff in the articles is news to me. You can find it in several sources. I notice that it does not mention Lincoln's military service, or that his suspension of habeas corpus was constitutional (Article I, Section 9: "The Privilege of the Writ of Habeas Corpus shall not be suspended, unless when in Cases of Rebellion or Invasion the public Safety may require it.").

Subject: RE: BS: Was He Really All That Honest?
From: Don Firth
Date: 12 Nov 12 - 08:52 PM

So, Hinkle, you think getting a good education merely fills one's mind with evil propaganda? Well, that's convenient excuse for not bothering to summon up the energy and ambition to try to learn anything.

You remind me of the person who, after displaying an immense level of ignorance, was asked, "Are you really that ignorant or are you just apathetic?" responded, "I don't know and I don't care!"

If everyone thought like you, the human race would still be living in caves and drooling a lot.

You might try explaining your views on education to a young woman named Malala Yousufzai.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Was He Really All That Honest?
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 12 Nov 12 - 10:41 PM

Lizzie Cornish 1: "Would you care to explain your remark, Don?"

He's thirsty.

gfS

Subject: RE: BS: Was He Really All That Honest?
From: Henry Krinkle
Date: 12 Nov 12 - 11:55 PM

Yep. He just laps it up.
=(:-( P)

Subject: RE: BS: Was He Really All That Honest?
From: GUEST,Big Al Whittle
Date: 13 Nov 12 - 01:07 AM

Its very easy to judge people in different and difficult historical contests.

Wars - Indian Wars, Civil Wars, International wars - are surprisingly violent affairs. Its only the lucky leaders like Thatcher that come out of them smelling of roses.

Apparently another mass hanging that we were all pretty gung ho about was when we hanged all the Japanese war criminals after WW2. Some of them apparently on the grounds that one Japanese name was pretty much like any other Japanese name.

Really the native Indians hangings were dwarfed in culpability compared to how many people the English hanged in Kenya at the time of of the Mau Mau uprising.

Perhaps I'm looking at it in a naively quantitative way. For cold blooded murder - how can you beat Henry VIII cutting the heads off two women he had slept with - can't understand that.

To the victims and their families, every murder is particular and stems from the worst part of human soul.