BS: Was Abe Really All That Honest?

Subject: RE: BS: Was Abe Really All That Honest?
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 15 Nov 12 - 11:45 PM

Big Al Whittle: "No. Hitler would have failed anyway. He was cracked..."

"...It was a damn close run thing. A victory only purchased by the blood of our parents and their friends. Incredibly traumatic for them..."

"He may look crazy in retrospect - but a lot of people thought Hitler had some good ideas - not just Germans either. He was pretty credible at the time."



I think it would be safe to say that Hitler's Germany was defeated, but fascism survived.

..something I noticed as a kid....the country that defeats another country in war becomes just like the enemy they defeated.

...but then, I'm from 'Sanity-Land'

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Was Abe Really All That Honest?
From: Henry Krinkle
Date: 16 Nov 12 - 01:14 AM

If bobette says Lincoln sucked, Lincoln sucked.
No brag. Just fact.
=(:-( D)

Subject: RE: BS: Was Abe Really All That Honest?
From: GUEST,999
Date: 16 Nov 12 - 01:48 AM

With love (and kindness).

Subject: RE: BS: Was Abe Really All That Honest?
From: GUEST,999
Date: 16 Nov 12 - 02:25 AM

What I hereby suggest is that you two bros--both being from below the MD line--ease up. OK?

Here in the north, we herniate when good people argue. We carry on anyway, but get real bitchy after the herniation. Capiche?

Get back to the corners and let your trainers toss it in. No one ever wins in a serious fight. Someone loses less, that's all.

Subject: RE: BS: Was Abe Really All That Honest?
From: Henry Krinkle
Date: 16 Nov 12 - 02:40 AM

Andrew Jackson. Now there's a real stampeder.
=(:-( o)

Subject: RE: BS: Was Abe Really All That Honest?
From: GUEST,Lizzie Cornish
Date: 16 Nov 12 - 04:01 AM

Please, if you didn't watch this earlier when I posted it, please, please take around 1 hour and 30minutes to watch....


At hour and 18 minutes in you will hear the Mayor of Mankota making his wonderful and deeply moving speech.

Imagine if Lincoln had said what this dear man says, just imagine...

Dakota 38 - Youtube

I am well aware that Lincoln brought the numbers of those to be hanged, down. He still went ahead with it though. Most of those hanged were thought to be innocent. The whole incident happened ONLY because the Native Americans were being starved...and instead of lambasting The Bastards who did this, who *caused* this tragedy to happen, he went along with them and on Boxing Day, hanged 38 men, who joined together in song as they died...

MANY innocent people lost their lives during this time, but never did ANY American President have the GUTS to stand up and say "Shit! WHAT are we doing to these loving and innocent people whose land we have invaded, whose way of life we are tearing apart, who history we are trying to wipe out! Holey SHITE but WHAT has happened to us, as White People????"

And I cannot even begin to imagine how EVERY Native American must feel every time they have to use the dollar bill with Jackson's face on it.

I'm sorry, but the way the Native Americans have been treated and are STILL being treated, to this day, is shocking and deeply appalling.

Most people talk about Black Americans with total ease and great knowledge of what happened to their people, but the majority don't give shite about the Native Americans to this day. It's why they, as a People, are still drinking themselves senseless, feeling, in the main, so utterly lost and deeply hopeless.

It's why Russell Means NEVER stopped fighting for them all to the end of his days and why tears would fall from his eyes in an instant when he spoke of how he saw the Grandpas and their grandchildren rooting through trash cans trying to find food at times...

I do not romanticise them as a People, for there are good and bad everywhere, but I have the greatest respect and the deepest sorrow for the Native American People, for I feel very much that so many of them are pushed aside, out of sight, out of mind...and they will remain so, purely because they ARE the Original People of this land now called 'America' and to this day that still brings fear, resentment and a feeling of great discomfort to many Americans. Many other Americans know shit-all about the Indigenous People of their country, nor do they want to, for they regard it as *their* country now and the Native Americans, in their eyes, should have 'got over it' decades back..

Subject: RE: BS: Was Abe Really All That Honest?
From: Henry Krinkle
Date: 16 Nov 12 - 04:54 AM

I agree with you., Lizzie. Well said.
=(:-( ))

Subject: RE: BS: Was Abe Really All That Honest?
From: GUEST,Lizzie Cornish
Date: 16 Nov 12 - 05:53 AM

I made a mistake with the timing on the video above.

The Mayor of Mankota starts his moving speech just over I hour and 7 minutes in....

Apologies..

Subject: RE: BS: Was Abe Really All That Honest?
From: Bobert
Date: 16 Nov 12 - 09:24 AM

Nice video, brucie...

Not to fear, dude... Greg and I are okay... We ain't Siamese twins, thou and come to some things from different perspectives... Hey, that's what makes below-the-line, ahhhhh, below-the-line...

We both on the same page on just how messed up the South is but, hey, as messed up as it is it's gotta-a-lotta, too...

One of the really messed up things going down now is succession movements by all the washrag, crybaby Republicans... So, like their Southern Democrats in 1860, they want out??? Fine with me... The DoD funds 94 - count 'um - military bases in red states... Red states get back $1.25 for every $1.00 they pay in federal taxes... Hey, if the majority of Texans vote to succeed then I say, "Don't let the door hit ya' on the way out and we're taking those 15 bases out, all the Social Security, Medicare, highway funds and every dime that we're now giving ya'... Oh, BTW, good luck with the 2nd Mexican War 'cause we ain't coming to save yer asses... Bye-d-bye"...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Was Abe Really All That Honest?
From: Henry Krinkle
Date: 16 Nov 12 - 09:37 AM

I hope Georgia secedes. I don't want to fund the DoD.
It's part of the problem.
=(:-( ))

Subject: RE: BS: Was Abe Really All That Honest?
From: Greg F.
Date: 16 Nov 12 - 10:13 AM

Now, Bobert, you're either being disingenuous or just plain silly.

RE: post of 15 Nov 12 - 08:54 PM

1. Thinks about it this way, Greg...

I CAN'T think about it "that way" Bobert, nor should you or any rational being - because Lincoln didn't have a crystal ball and didn't know the future. In 1861 he dodn't "know" what was going to happen in 1862, never mind 1877 or 1963. Nor can he be held responsible for "causing" things after he was dead- especially 150 years after he was dead.

2.Slavery was on its way out even here in the South...[in 1861]

I asked you to substantiate this claim before, & you didn't even try; here's another chance.

Since chattel slavery as practiced in the U.S. was unique among the slave societies of the world, what makes you think things "would" have developed in the U.S. the way they did in the rest of the world. That and the fact that world-wide demand for cotton & other slave-produced commodities from the U.S.was on the increase? What is the evidence that slavery was "on the way out" in the U.S. in 1860?

3. Lincoln made a decision to push the South in re-supplying Sumpter... Lincoln knew the consequences... Lincoln picked war

This is one of the silliest contentions of the "Lost Cause" myth. Mean, nasty, unscrupulous, tricky Abe conned them poor, dumb, ignorant, Southern bumpkins and forced the South to war.

C'mon! Take a look -a real look - at the history of the U.S from the Missouri Compromise up to 1860. Read the speeches of the Southern senators & congressmen. Read the editorials in the Charleston "Mercury" and the Richmond "Examiner" & etc. Read the several Ordinances of Secession.

If you need identify a single individual who "picked war" try either Edmund Ruffin or Colonel James Chesnut, Jr, or Lieutenant Henry S. Farley.

4. You also never answered how Lincoln could tell Jeff Davis, "Have a nice day"... and uphold his presidental oath & preserve & defend the Union.

I'm not trying to be a pain in the ass, Bobert- I'm really curious about your positions on these.

Greg

Subject: RE: BS: Was Abe Really All That Honest?
From: Bobert
Date: 16 Nov 12 - 10:56 AM

Yo, Greg...

First, my hypothesis is that the USA and CSA would either reunite down the road or, more likely be allies today, as the USA and Canada are... That is not an unreasonable...

You asking me to prove hypothetical outcomes is academically lazy on your part... No one can... Yes, it is always easier to debate real history than to take yourself back and "imagine" different outcomes...

I can imagine a much more civilized outcome than what we have endured...

Second, you can Google up "abolition movement" as well as I can and see for yourself that the slavery was on its way out even down here in Dixieland... Beginning in the late 1700s countries were outlawing slavery and list isn't short... Google it...

Again, with the international abolitionist movement I think anyone would hard pressed to argue (and prove) that the South would still have slavery today had the CSA been allowed to go...

Third, yeah, we agree... There were a lot of Southern firebrands just like there are today... BTW, I have read a lot of old newspapers from that day... When I was in college there was a library at the "Daughters of the Confederacy" in Richmond where you could read the real newspapers, not microfish... I spent many hours reading those papers... Not much has changed from some of the stuff we hear and read today from tin-foil nation...

In April of 1861 Lincoln had choices... One was to honor a Constitution that Thomas Jefferson even warned us might need to be revisited from time to time and resupply Ft. Sumpter after shots were fired by cadets at the Citadel at a boat carrying troops and supplies or...

...withdraw troops from Sumpter...

He had those choices... He picked the first having to know that a major show of force in the Charleston Harbor would be provocative... Seems that's how most wars get started...

Ya' know, there are Civil War "round-tables" everywhere where people discuss strategies, tactics, troop movements, generals, etc...

Anyone can do that...

What a lot of folks can't do, however, is go back and find where a decision here or there could cause so much damage... Voltaire, as well as others, said that "those who don't know history tend to repeat it"... Part of being a historian is not debating strategies and tactics but the bigger "What if's"...

After seeing just how much damage has been inflicted on our nation by this war and just how it never really has ended (see electoral map) I'm sticking with my conclusion/hypothesis that it was a terrible mistake that could have been avoided had either side wanted to avoid it...

I do not hold Southerner blameless... Yes, they acted poorly but...

..takes two to tango...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Was Abe Really All That Honest?
From: Greg F.
Date: 16 Nov 12 - 11:31 AM

Bobert-

I now see we've been and are talking at cross purposes.

You're talking could have, might have, maybe would have, speculation and imagination.

I'm talking what actually did happen, what actually led up to what happened, what actually resulted from what happened, and historical reality.

Historians don't imagine the "what iffs" except as an entertaiment or mental exercise. That ain't real - that's speculation or amateur fortune -telling, and deterministic fortune telling at that.

Anything, absolutely ANYTHING "might have been". But that ain't reality.

With 20/20 hindsight its easy - and disingenuous - to condemn an historical individual's actions based on what they did not know or COULD not know at the time they were alive.

Ya' know, there are Civil War "round-tables" everywhere where people discuss strategies, tactics, troop movements, generals, etc...Anyone can do that... Your point being? I haven't done that, nor would I care to. Irrelevant.

You did not answer the "slavery on the way out" question. You did not answer the Lincoln oath of office question.

"Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it." is George Santayana, and he was talking about historical reality, not myth, fantasy and imagination. I suspect that Voltaire would feel the same.

So I will bow out. Anytime you'd like to continue this as a discussion of reality, be glad to do so. Feel free to continue discussing fantasy with others who may choose to do so.

Be well, amigo.

Greg

Subject: RE: BS: Was Abe Really All That Honest?
From: Henry Krinkle
Date: 16 Nov 12 - 11:58 AM

Stinkin' Lincoln.
=(:-( P)

Subject: RE: BS: Was Abe Really All That Honest?
From: Greg F.
Date: 16 Nov 12 - 01:08 PM

Most of those hanged were thought to be innocent.

THOUGHT by who, Lizzie? Do you have any evidence to present here that they WERE innocent?

the way the Native Americans have been treated and are STILL being treated, to this day, is shocking and deeply appalling.

No argument.

But get off your high horse. I KNEW Russell Means.

Subject: RE: BS: Was Abe Really All That Honest?
From: Bobert
Date: 16 Nov 12 - 01:19 PM

Greg, ol' buddy...

There is no answer to the "slavery was on it's way out" question any more than Saddam being able to prove he didn't have WMDs... That is a trick question... People make choices all the time on probabilities, trends and patterns...

I mean, I could ask you the same question in reverse... It would go something like this: Would the South ended slavery without the war??? And please provide your evidence...

See??? I think we can logically get beyond that question... I believe the South would have... Maybe you don't...

Same with the oath... It was no secret the Southern states wanted out of the Union... The firebrands had been ranting for years... Might of fact the entire concept of "federalism" had never been sufficiently agreed upon in spite of the the 1803 decision in Murbury v. Madison...

Lincoln could have met with Jefferson Davis and proposed a constitutional amendment releasing the Southern States... That would have bought him some time... Think of it more as a divorce where even though one party didn't initiate it accepts it for what it is...

Oaths can be tricky... Google Grover Norquist... I mean, 625,000 men wouldn't have died had Lincoln been more creative...

Lastly, you seem to think that because I do not agree with you that I am not dealing with "reality"... You know better than that, Greg... I am dealing very much with reality... The reality is that the unCivil War didn't ***have*** to happen... The reality is that it did... The reality is that in many ways there is a low grade civil war that has never ended... The reality is that I am neither a Southern Apologist nor a Lincoln Worshiper... I am a historian that just doesn't buy the mythology that this war was gonna happen no matter what...

I offer no apologies for slavery, for radical Southern firebrands, for Radical Republican firebrands, for Lincoln, for Davis... My interest in history is that it offers lessons... Gosh, if we learned nothin' from 625,000 men killed then that disrespects each and every one of them...

Now, I'm going to do what I wished Lincoln had done and leave this alone...

We've been too good of friends, Greg, for me to take it any further... My mamma might have been a pistol in her day but she also taught me grace...

Peace...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Was Abe Really All That Honest?
From: Henry Krinkle
Date: 16 Nov 12 - 01:19 PM

Let's discuss Zachary Taylor. He's buried out behind my dad's house. Was he poisoned?
=(:-( ))

Subject: RE: BS: Was Abe Really All That Honest?
From: Greg F.
Date: 16 Nov 12 - 01:35 PM

Lincoln could have met with Jefferson Davis and proposed a constitutional amendment releasing the Southern States..

Not and maintain the Union & Constitution he was sworn to uphold, protect & defend.

Lincoln COULD also have contacted the inhabitants of the planet Tralfamadore and asked them to mediate the situation. ;>)

This time. I'm REALLY outa here.

All best,

Greg

Subject: RE: BS: Was Abe Really All That Honest?
From: GUEST,Artixes the Grey
Date: 16 Nov 12 - 02:33 PM

I think not. The Tralfamadorians have always wisely refrained from taking sides in quarrels between Earthlings, so I think they would have been unwilling to mediate in that conflict.

Subject: RE: BS: Was Abe Really All That Honest?
From: Greg F.
Date: 16 Nov 12 - 02:37 PM

I didn't say they would have agreed, I said Abe could have asked!

;>)

Subject: RE: BS: Was Abe Really All That Honest?
From: GUEST,Artixes the Grey
Date: 16 Nov 12 - 02:43 PM

True. He certainly could have. But it would have been in vain. Still, I suppose it might have led to further fruitful cultural exchange and possibly trade.

In retrospect, it is perhaps regrettable that he did not.

As you are clearly a stickler for logic, however, may I point out an inconsistency in your own communications. You said "This time. I'm REALLY outa here." But then you returned! This does not compute.

Subject: RE: BS: Was Abe Really All That Honest?
From: GUEST,Lizzie Cornish
Date: 16 Nov 12 - 02:48 PM

Well, if you knew Russell Means, I sure as hell hope you're out there defending him from the Bastards who, even as he was dying, were busy filling the internet with the nastiest things they could think of to write about him...And of course, the day he died, well, they had a party!

So, get off YOUR fucking High Horse, Greg and don't you DARE patronize me, for I've come into contact with MANY Native Americans these past years, who have ALL treated me with kindness and respect, other than the ones who trawl around slagging off Russell and Leonard, for they see me as one of their biggest enemies these days, even writing their sick little blogs about me....

Do NOT come the Big I Am with me, for it doesn't work, not one bloody iota!!!

And if you want to find out who says that some of them were innocent, then why don't you talk to some of the folks you allegedly knew....

Now, feck off and back off....
Thank you.

Subject: RE: BS: Was Abe Really All That Honest?
From: Greg F.
Date: 16 Nov 12 - 02:49 PM

Lizzie, get help. Please. You're gonna hurt yourself.

Subject: RE: BS: Was Abe Really All That Honest?
From: Greg F.
Date: 16 Nov 12 - 02:52 PM

True, Artixes the Grey, I lied. Or mis-spoke. Or some such.

I'm afraid its just another example the human condition. Can't trust any of us, wch is why the Tralfamadorians justifiably keep us at arms length.

Subject: RE: BS: Was Abe Really All That Honest?
From: GUEST,Artixes the Grey
Date: 16 Nov 12 - 03:19 PM

Well put, Greg. Indeed, it is Federation policy to limit contacts with Earthlings to the bare minimum required in order to gather useful scientific information and observe changing conditions on your planet. Any contact at all is considered somewhat dangerous, particularly where your governments are concerned, but we feel it is nevertheless justified for both scientific and altruistic reasons.

Subject: RE: BS: Was Abe Really All That Honest?
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 16 Nov 12 - 04:23 PM

>>>Lizzie, get help. Please. You're gonna hurt yourself.<<<

Thanks for the concern, but really, I'm OK. Unlike others I'm not suffering from Pretentious Prat Syndrome. However, I have heard that if one is suffering from it, applying a turnip to the inner regions of the nether regions is said to be quite beneficial.

Try it and see, Greg...
And,please, do let me know how it goes...

:0)

Subject: RE: BS: Was Abe Really All That Honest?
From: GUEST,Artixes the Grey
Date: 16 Nov 12 - 04:37 PM

Ah! Another interesting bit of information about Earth culture.

"applying a turnip to the inner regions of the nether regions is said to be quite beneficial"

Fascinating! Turnips are already listed amongst our catalog of edible Earth plant products, but I had not heard previously about their therapeutic use for illnesses of the nether regions. Pretentious Prat Syndrome sounds like a painful and possibly very serious ailment.

Making note to self: must have medical lab team look into this as soon as possible and secure suitable Earth subjects for experimentation and in order to find a reliable cure for PPS. Where to look? That is the question. Perhaps in the area of Earth called the UK?

Subject: RE: BS: Was Abe Really All That Honest?
From: Greg F.
Date: 16 Nov 12 - 04:45 PM

Ah, Lizzie The Great, I prostrate myself before your magnificence and especial omniscience - forgive me for questioning the knowledge and erudition of the all-knowing and all-seeing entity that is Lizzie Cornish about all things Native American ( altho from a continent 3000+ miles away and with no direct experience of the things she prates on about )- Lizzie, the chosen one and Representative on Earth of The Great Spitit, Wakan Tanka, Quetzalcoatl, The Husk-Faces and False Faces, the Old People and all the other spirits of The Four Directions.

And no, you are most definately NOT "OK", if the drivel you post is indicative.

Get help.

Soon.

For your own good.

Subject: RE: BS: Was Abe Really All That Honest?
From: GUEST,Artixes the Great
Date: 16 Nov 12 - 05:17 PM

Is this a death match by sarcasm? They used to have those on the planet Gnaxos, but they discontinued the custom as it was creating so much social friction and hatred. No one has died by sarcasm on Naxos in 500 years of their calendar...about 813 of your Earth years. It was said to be a particularly horrible way to die..."death by a thousand tiny cuts"...and it sometimes even proved fatal to both combatants...rather like dueling with poisoned blades.

We would consider it a barbarous practice. Death matches by sarcasm are simply not permitted any longer in the Federation. A lofty sneer is punishable by being placed in solitary for approximately 3 earth days. A snide remark results in further solitary confinement. Rude gestures to indicate contempt result in being cut to half-rations. Lowering the apparel to expose the nether regions from behind as a sign of deep disrespect results in being tossed into a pit of angry Nyhobbers (small, fierce animals similar to your "shrew").

Yes, there are some things which simply cannot be tolerated, even in the Federation where we practice tolerance as far as we are able.

Subject: RE: BS: Was Abe Really All That Honest?
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 16 Nov 12 - 05:20 PM

Please, be sure to make it a VERY LARGE Turnip, Greg...

And hey, maybe you'd like to help raise some money for Pe'Sla...they've got $1.5MILLION to raise by the end of this month...

It would be SO much better than you sitting there pontificating...You'll find a link to the site on the Support Chief Raoni FB page...at the top, left handside....

Have a good evening....
And hey, make yourself a date with Looking Back Woman, methinks the two of you would make the perfect couple...

And yes, Russell Means *will* be chuckling over that remark, I can assure you..

Subject: RE: BS: Was Abe Really All That Honest?
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 16 Nov 12 - 05:21 PM

Artixes...if ONLY Mudcat had 'like' buttons, you'd be getting your button pushed by me, for sure. ;0) 20/10 for your posts! :0)

Subject: RE: BS: Was Abe Really All That Honest?
From: Greg F.
Date: 16 Nov 12 - 05:23 PM

Not a death match at all Artixes - just a free exchange of ideas.

However, I will admit that it violates W.S. Gilbert's maxim: "That he who'd make his fellow creatures wise, must always gild the philosophic pill."

Ta.

Subject: RE: BS: Was Abe Really All That Honest?
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 16 Nov 12 - 05:34 PM

This should do....nice and fresh too

Subject: RE: BS: Was Abe Really All That Honest?
From: Greg F.
Date: 16 Nov 12 - 05:37 PM

Ah, Lizzie, you wouldn't know Russel Means if he bit you on the ass.

Have a good, self-important evening yourself.

Subject: RE: BS: Was Abe Really All That Honest?
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 16 Nov 12 - 05:48 PM

Actually, I would...John Trudell too....and a whole lotta others...

Enjoy the turnip..

And as I said, if you want to continue to help The Lakota, now that Russell is no longer here to fight for them, then help them save Pe'Sla, because if they lose that too it will be yet another part of their Heart gone..

They need many more to fight for them and with them now that Russell has moved on....so stop wasting your time arguing with me...and realize that Russell Means would have actually enjoyed talking with me, (as I would have with him) because he'd have known how deeply I respect his People...and how intolerant of Turnip Trotters I am, same as he was...for one of the many things I loved about Russell Means is that he did not suffer fools gladly and he said exactly what he thought, becoming ragingly angry about the injustice towards his People. He was a good man, who knew he had faults and had done wrong things in the past but had the guts to admit to them, but he never, ever stopped fighting.

There will be several more ceremonies for Russell next year..I suggest you find out about them and attend..and hopefully, a little bit of Russell will float down on to you from above...and improve your Communication Skills no end.

Thank you.

Subject: RE: BS: Was Abe Really All That Honest?
From: Greg F.
Date: 16 Nov 12 - 06:10 PM

Ah yes, Lizzie, that from the self-appointed, Wašicun spokeswoman for the Lakota - who are perfectly able to speak for themselves without your patronizing "Adopt-the-Native Americans As Pets" help.

One of the fools that Russell would not have suffered is YOU!.

Good night.

Subject: RE: BS: Was Abe Really All That Honest?
From: GUEST,Big Al Whittle
Date: 16 Nov 12 - 08:00 PM

Of course he was honest - if he were dishonest, he would have had one of those false beards like they had in that Gettysburg film.

Subject: RE: BS: Was Abe Really All That Honest?
From: Henry Krinkle
Date: 17 Nov 12 - 01:41 AM

A turnip a day
Keeps Greg happy.
=(:-( D)

Subject: RE: BS: Was Abe Really All That Honest?
From: Henry Krinkle
Date: 17 Nov 12 - 05:08 AM

Keeps him on his toes, too!
=(:-( D)

Subject: RE: BS: Was Abe Really All That Honest?
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 17 Nov 12 - 06:29 AM

>>>Ah yes, Lizzie, that from the self-appointed, Wašicun spokeswoman for the Lakota - who are perfectly able to speak for themselves without your patronizing "Adopt-the-Native Americans As Pets" help.

One of the fools that Russell would not have suffered is YOU!.<<<


Actually, he would have. Why? Because I'm as steamingly angry as Russell is over how Native Americans are *still* being treated to this day.

WHERE did you get your deeply insulting and highly patronizing 'Adopt-A-Native' idea from? Sure as hell ain't from me..

I'm merely around to open the eyes of those who want them opened that Genocide against Indigenous People still carries on to this day, albeit in a more covert way, such as the alcohol stores on the borders of Pine Ridge, at White Clay, the children taken from their families to be fostered out in white foster homes, despite there being many Native foster homes willing and wanting to take the children in until their parents can be helped...The highest suicide rate in the world, the highest levels of diabetes, shortest life-expectancy in America etc...etc..etc..

When the Lakota tried desperately to shut down those evil drink stores in White Clay, protesting peacefully, linking their arms via tubes and lying down in the road, trying so hard to get the world to wake up and see what is happening, do you know what happened? The police arrived, pepper-sprayed many, including a 10 year old boy, then they got a CATTLE truck and put the protestors in there, still linked arm in arm via tubes, loaded them in a long line, standing up, like cattle, then drove them off...probably breaking every safety rule in the process!

I don't want anyone to 'adopt-a-native' as you so crudely put it! Nor do I 'fantasize' about Native American men, as someone once said to me, thus being whizzed off my FB page faster than he could ever imagine.

I KNOW what it's like to lose a child! I KNOW just a little, some of the pain those Mothers felt when their children were taken from them, the years of pain that followed them the rest of their lives!

I am sickened by the New Agers who want to be Native American, taking their Spirituality and 'selling it' to those who want to 'join in the fun'..This is NOT FUN!

It is about fecking RESPECT!!!!!!

It is about GAP being made to withdraw their 'Manifest Destiny' T Shirt, whilst being shot up the bum by people such as me who phoned them up and gave them hell, reducing the woman at the other end almost to tears once she had FINALLY understood the HORRORS that brought to the Native Americans, how it is STILL in use today as well! She had NO KNOWLEDGE WHATSOEVER of the People her company had insulted SO Deeply!!   Neither did the fecking Designer who thought it was a bit of a hoot, adding deep insult to injury with trashy comments he put on his Twitter page afterwards, ONLY withdrawing them and apologising when he realized he could damage his fecking career!

It's about No Doubt withdrawing their feckingly insulting video, as they did the other day...having to be bloody well TOLD in the first place! And it's about Victoria's Fecking Secret also apologizing for having their models canoodling down the catwalk with Indian Headresses draped over their knickers!!

It's about a People who have had ENOUGH and who are finally standing together to say it out LOUD!

It is why I do ALL I can to HELP them in any way possible, be it in getting the name of Pe'Sla out there, getting many to donate, as happened earlier, in August, when so many great people from my Support Chief Raoni page shared the 'Last Real Indians' Pe'Sla campaign out around the world!

It is why some Native Americans ask me to be on various pages...

It is why I speak out and stand up for AIM, against Denise Maloney Pictou and the terrible damage she is so intent on inflicting on people who cannot answer her back! It is why I stand up to the bullying group she has aligned herself to, including fecking Paul Demain and his FBI buddies, the Trimbachs and Ed Woods of this world!

So, get OFF my back, Greg. YOU started this with your highly insulting remark!

I can fecking well ASSURE you that Russell Means and I would have got on very well, for he would have seen not 'another white woman wanting to be Indian' but a woman as fearsomely angry as he could be at times, angry about the same things, for the same reasons and also for very different reasons too, for it was the Sociopathic forefathers of her People who did so much terrible damage to his..and it is the dumbed down, numbed down present people of her race who, to this day, choose to look away, believe what Hollywood wanted them to believe and pretend that 'the Indians got what they deserved!'....

And EVERYTIME someone writes to me to tell me that they have learnt so much from my page, that they never realized what the Native Americans have had to endure and still do, to this day, then I KNOW that I am doing exactly the kind of thing that Russell Means wants us ALL to be doing, and that is taking his message out to the world, and now, with Russell gone on ahead, there is a far greater need than ever before to carry on his work in this world....

These are my final words in here, for I'm no longer going to degrade myself, or the Native American Cause in allowing you to use a People whom I care very deeply about for your own agenda.

Subject: RE: BS: Was Abe Really All That Honest?
From: Henry Krinkle
Date: 17 Nov 12 - 06:48 AM

*ClapClapClapClap!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!*
=(:-( D)

Subject: RE: BS: Was Abe Really All That Honest?
From: Greg F.
Date: 17 Nov 12 - 11:06 AM

Get over yourself, Liz.

Subject: RE: BS: Was Abe Really All That Honest?
From: GUEST,DDT
Date: 17 Nov 12 - 03:05 PM

To get back on the subject, if that wouldn't be too much trouble, it's impossible to separate the various phases of the Civil War and aftermath as though they are somehow unrelated. Reconstruction, the 13th, 14th and 15th amendments, Reconstruction and Jim Crow are simply effects of causes and causes of effects. Lincoln wanted to get the Emancipation Proclamation into effect by 1862 but knew he couldn't do it until he had a big victory on the battlefield. That came at Antietam when Union forces stopped the Confederate Army from taking over Maryland. He put the Proclamation into effect on January 1, 1863. This Proclamation was not a law as it was never ratified by Congress. It was an executive order.

Lincoln had no authority to end slavery by Proclamation in states in the Union so states as Kentucky, Maryland, Delaware and the like were exempt. It targeted 10 states which were in rebellion against the Union and basically said that as they fell under union control, the slaves in the region were automatically freed. Contrary to the belief that it freed no slaves immediately, it freed tens of thousands in areas of the South under control of the Union Army but millions more were not yet freed. No slaves in the Union states were freed.

Lincoln's purpose for the Emancipation Proclamation was to prevent slaves in areas taken over the by Union Army from being seized as contraband and furthermore allowed them to join the Union Army. So what Lincoln was doing was creating an ever-expanding army that didn't require Northern volunteers or conscripts. As the Union Army pushed into the South, the army became self-perpetuating by signing on newly freed slaves as soldiers.

The major effect of the Emancipation Proclamation was that it made freeing the slaves the main goal of the war and gave the Union the impetus to do it because it enabled them to win the war faster.

While Lincoln did reply to Horace Greeley that he would not free a single slave if it meant ripping the Union apart, this was a calculated statement. If the Union was ripped apart, then that meant he had lost the war and he would not have the authority to end slavery anywhere. It was a statement made to quiet those who were angrily saying that white people were being forced to die in order to free blacks from servitude. Lincoln's actions spoke louder than his words--he was out to end slavery, that he saw emancipation as a condition of a Union victory. If he did not end it, the problems that led up to the war would still be present and so the war would flare up again and again. To truly win the war, slavery had to die.

Lincoln reiterated that emancipation was the main goal in the Gettysburg Address by stating that this govt was founded on the proposition that all men are created equal and that this was the principle over which so many men had died in that war and that they must not have died in vain and that if we carried on with the task for which they died, this nation would "have a new birth of freedom" so that the govt founded 87 years earlier wouldn't end up on the scrap heap of history. It's difficult to understand what else he could have meant if not the abolition of slavery.

The following year, Lincoln pushed for the 13th amendment to the Constitution abolishing slavery throughout the US and "on any place subject to their jurisdiction." It was formally adopted to the Constitution on December of 1865.

As far as Lincoln suspending the Writ of Habeas Corpus, he was perfectly within his right to do it. The Writ could be legally suspended during rebellions or invasions. Lincoln suspended it in states under rebellion in order to get control. Jefferson Davis also suspended the Writ of Habeas Corpus in Confederate states in rebellion. He also had Yankees that lived just south of the Mason-Dixon line imprisoned without trial just as Lincoln had done with Southerners living just north of the line.

The real cause of Jim Crow was not Reconstruction. Reconstruction was actually preventing Jim Crow. But after Hayes withdrew federal troops from the South, the democrats took over and passed the "Black Codes" upon which the Jim Crow era was ushered in. While the Klan may have in certain instances protected black communities from marauders and while black militias did often get out of hand and commit crimes, the Klan stood steadfastly against Reconstruction, Radical Republicanism and "negro rule." They killed, maimed and intimidated anyone they dubbed a carpetbagger, scalawag or radical republican. They killed any blacks who spoke or against white supremacy rule and so contributed to the very lawlessness and corruption they decried.

So whose honesty should really be at question here?

Subject: RE: BS: Was Abe Really All That Honest?
From: gnu
Date: 17 Nov 12 - 03:34 PM

Food for thought, DDT.

Subject: RE: BS: Was Abe Really All That Honest?
From: Henry Krinkle
Date: 17 Nov 12 - 04:37 PM

Lincoln was scum.
=(:-( ))

Subject: RE: BS: Was Abe Really All That Honest?
From: Bobert
Date: 17 Nov 12 - 07:02 PM

Yup, DDT, that was pretty much the way it went down... And, yes, Reconstruction held Jim Crow off until Hayes was sworn into office...

I might add that the Reconstruction/occupation was considered a poke in the eye to Southerners... This 'caused a double does of hatred for black folks and by early 1877 Jim Crow and the Klan were chompin' at the bit to punish black folks and have been at it, at some level, ever since...

In 1979 a non-violent, legal civil rights march occurred in Greensboro, NC... The Klan set up on the parade route and shot and killed 5 demonstrators... None were charged???

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Was Abe Really All That Honest?
From: Don Firth
Date: 17 Nov 12 - 07:26 PM

Just a cautionary note, Hinkle:

Never take a laxative. If you do, your head will shrink to the size of a prune.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Was Abe Really All That Honest?
From: Bobert
Date: 17 Nov 12 - 07:40 PM

The Krinkx is just a gnat, Don, and like a gnat the more yo swat at it the more it wants to mess with you... Ignore it and it either goes away or ceases to bother you...

Or in the words of my poor brother, "Turn the radio up"...

B;~)

Subject: RE: BS: Was Abe Really All That Honest?
From: frogprince
Date: 17 Nov 12 - 07:47 PM

A friendly suggestion for you, Henry K: one other effortless way for you to attract attention and gain comparable amounts of respect would be to walk around in public with your doohicky hanging out. But then again, that would require you to get up from the computer and walk around.

Subject: RE: BS: Was Abe Really All That Honest?
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 17 Nov 12 - 07:48 PM

200 honestly cute posts!

GfS