BS: Was Abe Really All That Honest?

Subject: RE: BS: Was Abe Really All That Honest?
From: GUEST,Lighter
Date: 23 Nov 12 - 09:56 AM

Drunken bum? Hardly.

Grant was a regular drinker in an age when "Temperance" (abstention) was the rule for the insufferably genteel. It was to the advantage of rebels and Copperheads to portray him as a drunk, and they gleefully did so.

Drunken bums don't win wars and don't get elected and re-elected to the Presidency. Furthermore, the lenient terms Grant gave to Lee, on Lincoln's inspiration but not specific instruction, very likely prevented guerrilla warfare after April, 1865.

As President, Grant was victimized by misplaced faith in his corrupt colleagues. His personal honesty has never been questioned. He pushed the 15th Amendment through Congress and won legislation to allow the Feds to prosecute the Klan. What's more, he advocated citizenship and education for Native Americans rather than letting them rot on reservations or be wiped out. He appointed Ely Parker as the first Native American Commisioner of Indian Affairs.

Grant wrote his memoirs while he was in debt and dying painfully of throat cancer. Nobody who's read them will consider "Grant" either a "drunk" or a "bum."

Just some facts for the very few who still care.

Subject: RE: BS: Was Abe Really All That Honest?
From: Greg F.
Date: 23 Nov 12 - 09:45 AM

Yeah, Grant was indeed no stranger to the bottle...

"No stranger"? Which could be said of at least half the officers on BOTH sides in the Civil War, and about the same proportion of the U.S. populationin general at that time. Check the statistics on production & consumption of alcoholic beverages in mid-19th Century U.S.

Subject: RE: BS: Was Abe Really All That Honest?
From: Bobert
Date: 23 Nov 12 - 09:19 AM

Yeah, Grant was indeed no stranger to the bottle... He wasn't all that great a general or president either... Whether or not he would have been better had he been sober is a matter on conjecture...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Was Abe Really All That Honest?
From: Henry Krinkle
Date: 23 Nov 12 - 04:16 AM

General Grant was a drunken bum.
Drunken General

Subject: RE: BS: Was Abe Really All That Honest?
From: Henry Krinkle
Date: 23 Nov 12 - 04:03 AM

Just Say No
=(:-( o)

Subject: RE: BS: Was Abe Really All That Honest?
From: Greg F.
Date: 22 Nov 12 - 05:38 PM

a drunken drug addict like U. S. Grant

There goes your proof.

You realy are a complete and absolute ignorant fuckwit, aintcha, Krunkle?

Subject: RE: BS: Was Abe Really All That Honest?
From: GUEST,Lighter
Date: 22 Nov 12 - 03:56 PM

Just came from Spielberg's "Lincoln."

Brilliant through and through.

Four stars.

Better than anything Spielberg has done to date.

Anything.

Subject: RE: BS: Was Abe Really All That Honest?
From: Henry Krinkle
Date: 22 Nov 12 - 10:28 AM

If Abe was such a swell guy, how come a drunken drug addict like U. S. Grant was his top man? Couldn't he find a better choice?
=(:-( ))

Subject: RE: BS: Was Abe Really All That Honest?
From: Bobert
Date: 21 Nov 12 - 01:13 PM

Yup, Greg... That why they have rigged everything so that they make the most $$$... Notice I didn't say that Boss Hog has any major complaints on currency manipulation... I was just talking about what we, as a nation can do... Yes, there are reasons why we don't...

We talk the talk but don't walk the walk...

Hmmmmmmmmm????

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Was Abe Really All That Honest?
From: Greg F.
Date: 21 Nov 12 - 12:59 PM

Ah, but Bobert, U.S. corporations WANT the Chinese to "manipulate" their currency because an under-valued yuan is putting big bucks in their pockets.

Outfits like MalWart have developed supply chains in China that their profits depend on. A rise in the yuan means their costs will increase & profits decrease. Same for GE & all the other outfits that have shifted production to China - means higher costs for them.

These guys - despite the Romneyoid bullshit, will do anything in their power to PREVENT any steps that will lessen the value of the dollar vs. Chinese currency.

More right-wing smoke & mirrors & disinformation.

Subject: RE: BS: Was Abe Really All That Honest?
From: Henry Krinkle
Date: 21 Nov 12 - 12:13 PM

Bastards!!!!
=(:-( ))

Subject: RE: BS: Was Abe Really All That Honest?
From: Bobert
Date: 21 Nov 12 - 11:49 AM

The entire trade imbalance between the US and China comes down to three factors: cheap labor, currency value manipulation and subsidies...

We have some control over these... First, we can choose not to buy Chinese products, second, we can push on China to quit manipulating it's currency with various international law suits...

One of the biggies that we could do is revisit all the tax codes that all but demand that CEOs move their operations to China... Here's my pet peeve on that front... China is perfectly willing to throw a Chinese farmer off the land he works and build a turn-key factory, infrastructure and all and ***give*** it to Boss Hog, Inc. in order to create even more Chinese jobs... Now, if Boss Hog, Inc. were to own that factory here it would be a taxable asset of the corporation and subject to be taxed... However, the factory that Boss Hog, Inc (an American based company) owns in China is exempt from being taxed???

That's just one of hundreds of little loopholes that Boss Hog, Inc's purchased congressmen have put on the books over the last 3 decades...

So, if you don't want to wear Chinese cotton then write yer stenking Congressperson and tell him or her to close down all the stupid job killing loopholes... There are hundreds of them that need to go...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Was Abe Really All That Honest?
From: GUEST,Chongo Chimp
Date: 21 Nov 12 - 11:30 AM

People are selective in their indignation, Henry. Same deal with apes. On any given day there gotta be hundreds of thousands of things one could get indignant about, but everyone has their few special favorite obsessions, see? So...they just concentrate on those few favorites and they ignore the rest. This is efficient, actually, cos if one tried to get indignant about every bad thing that is goin' on...it would just be too much to handle, and the indignancy nerves in the body would shortcircuit! That would lead to total exhaustion, incontinency, and impotency. A nasty spot to be in! This is why I get indignant, for instance, about specism and about people bein' discourteous to women...but I don't spend a lotta time railin' on about religion or obsessin' over gay rights issues.

Like anyone else, I got a limited amount of indignancy ravin' capability percolatin' around in my system and just waitin' to bombard the ears of any poor sucker who happens to be in range. I gotta make sure I measure it out carefully so as to have enough OUTRAGE left for each one of my "special" favorite issues to do them full justice!

Some would call this hypocrisy. I just call it efficiency.

- Chongo

Subject: RE: BS: Was Abe Really All That Honest?
From: Henry Krinkle
Date: 20 Nov 12 - 07:07 PM

Chinese slavery produces it. Where's the indignation now?
=(:-( ))

Subject: RE: BS: Was Abe Really All That Honest?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 20 Nov 12 - 07:03 PM

They probably wear it all the time, Henry. No Lancashire cotton industry anymore so they are on holiday in the Bahamas all the time...

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Was Abe Really All That Honest?
From: Greg F.
Date: 20 Nov 12 - 06:47 PM

Who gives a shit, Krunkle?

Subject: RE: BS: Was Abe Really All That Honest?
From: Henry Krinkle
Date: 20 Nov 12 - 06:42 PM

How do they feel about Chinese cotton?
=(:-( ))

Subject: RE: BS: Was Abe Really All That Honest?
From: Greg F.
Date: 20 Nov 12 - 06:26 PM

God bless the Mancunians and Lancashire Mill Workers, Dave - they stood by their principles despite economic hardship & should be revered & credited for their stance - but you'll never convince the Neo-Confederate, Lost Cause bloc here on the Mudcat.

But you have my thanks and appreciation for setting it out!

Cheers,

Greg

Subject: RE: BS: Was Abe Really All That Honest?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 20 Nov 12 - 04:55 PM

Sorry if I am repeating something said earlier. There is something in the thread that makes my eyes bleed so I can't revirew it all.

Anyway. There is a HUGE statue of Abe Lincoln here in Manchester, England. He held the area very close due to the support given him and his anti-slavery lobby by the Lancashire Mill Workers who starved rather than work with cotton from the Confederacy.

Lots about it on t'interweb but this article is quite succinct.

Cheers

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Was Abe Really All That Honest?
From: frogprince
Date: 19 Nov 12 - 10:46 AM

"the pretty lady sat on the couch never uncrosses her legs in a way that gives me a sneaky look at her panties" "The insights provided by common sense and experience absolve us from doubting everything."

But haven't you ever realized that, if you've never seen her uncross her legs, you don't know for certain that she's wearing panties?

Subject: RE: BS: Was Abe Really All That Honest?
From: GUEST,Big Al Whittle
Date: 19 Nov 12 - 04:27 AM

Henry - here is what a lifetime of experience has taught me.

1) If we take a step forward, we go forward.

2) If we fart, the gas goes backwards.

3) On BBC Breakfast television, the pretty lady sat on the couch never uncrosses her legs in a way that gives me a sneaky look at her panties.

These truths we take to be self evident.

The insights provided by common sense and experience absolve us from doubting everything.

Subject: RE: BS: Was Abe Really All That Honest?
From: Henry Krinkle
Date: 18 Nov 12 - 09:25 PM

Is Prez al-Obama really that black?
=(:-( 0)

Subject: RE: BS: Was Abe Really All That Honest?
From: Henry Krinkle
Date: 18 Nov 12 - 11:13 AM

I think as good folkies you should question everything the government presents you with. Was Hitler really so bad? Was George Washington really so great? Abe so damned honest? Slick Willie really so horny? W really so stupid?Jimmy Carter really so nice yet lustful? Reagan so brain dead? It all begs the question....
=(:-( D)

Subject: RE: BS: Was Abe Really All That Honest?
From: Henry Krinkle
Date: 18 Nov 12 - 08:13 AM

I wonder if he was served by slaves at The White House? When were slaves banished from there? I suspect Abe of hypocrisy. I think he took advantage til the very end...
=(:-( °)

Subject: RE: BS: Was Abe Really All That Honest?
From: GUEST,Alan Whittle
Date: 18 Nov 12 - 07:12 AM

Its all very well.

But I repeat Henry, can you show any instance in Abraham Lincoln's career, when he

1) wore a false beard
2) farted and said it wasn't him
3) nicked the lead off the roof
4) advertised pension schemes on afternoon television
5) wrote a sitcom that didn't make anyone laugh
6) made up sexy bits to sell his life story
7) embarked on a war and cut the military budget

This I think shows there were areas of great transparency and honesty in his lfe. And that's all any of us can aspire to, and not all that many of us will succeed. Certainly none of the current lot of politicians.

Subject: RE: BS: Was Abe Really All That Honest?
From: Henry Krinkle
Date: 18 Nov 12 - 05:34 AM

It seems everyone is racist to some degree. Prejudiced. Discriminatory.
Regional bigotry. Class hatred. Gender hate.
Have you hugged a Republican today?
=(:-( D)

Subject: RE: BS: Was Abe Really All That Honest?
From: GUEST,Patsy
Date: 18 Nov 12 - 05:34 AM

Trying to find totally honest politicians or leaders anywhere is a hopeless task now let alone back then! Injustices to any people is abhorent whether it is because of race or as was happening in the Uk because you happened to be poor. But that was the attitude of a time past and hope it stays that way.

Subject: RE: BS: Was Abe Really All That Honest?
From: Henry Krinkle
Date: 18 Nov 12 - 04:29 AM

Gollygoshkins. A fine kettle of fish we have here.
Looks like I came up with an enticing thread.
I hope you are all happy.
WWAD?
(What Would Abe Do?)

Subject: RE: BS: Was Abe Really All That Honest?
From: Don Firth
Date: 17 Nov 12 - 09:45 PM

Well said, LadyJean.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Was Abe Really All That Honest?
From: LadyJean
Date: 17 Nov 12 - 09:10 PM

Lincoln considered repatriating former slaves, because he knew that after emancipation there would be a good deal of racial tension in this country.

He was hardly the first. The American Colonization Society founded Liberia in the 1830s as a haven for freed Blacks. Before that, the British sent some Blacks who had served with their army, in the revolutionary war to Africa.

There are few saints among us. Many of the leaders of the American Women's Suffrage movement were nativists and racists. While in England Emmeline and Christabel Pankhurst thought World War I was a splendid idea, and disowned sister Sylvia for being a pacifist.

Last year the Western Band of the Cherokee announced that Blacks, descendants of slaves who had belonged to members of the tribe, were no longer to be considered Cherokee.

Lincoln was flawed, as are we all. But he did a great deal of good in this world, and he knew that ordinary people mattered, something modern Republicans seem to have forgotten.

Subject: RE: BS: Was Abe Really All That Honest?
From: Don Firth
Date: 17 Nov 12 - 07:51 PM

Jayzuz, what a waste of perfectly good bandwidth!

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Was Abe Really All That Honest?
From: Bobert
Date: 17 Nov 12 - 07:50 PM

Apparently you haven't seen the Krinkx picture, f-prince... He wears his "doohicky" on top of his head... lol...

B;~)

Subject: RE: BS: Was Abe Really All That Honest?
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 17 Nov 12 - 07:48 PM

200 honestly cute posts!

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Was Abe Really All That Honest?
From: frogprince
Date: 17 Nov 12 - 07:47 PM

A friendly suggestion for you, Henry K: one other effortless way for you to attract attention and gain comparable amounts of respect would be to walk around in public with your doohicky hanging out. But then again, that would require you to get up from the computer and walk around.

Subject: RE: BS: Was Abe Really All That Honest?
From: Bobert
Date: 17 Nov 12 - 07:40 PM

The Krinkx is just a gnat, Don, and like a gnat the more yo swat at it the more it wants to mess with you... Ignore it and it either goes away or ceases to bother you...

Or in the words of my poor brother, "Turn the radio up"...

B;~)

Subject: RE: BS: Was Abe Really All That Honest?
From: Don Firth
Date: 17 Nov 12 - 07:26 PM

Just a cautionary note, Hinkle:

Never take a laxative. If you do, your head will shrink to the size of a prune.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Was Abe Really All That Honest?
From: Bobert
Date: 17 Nov 12 - 07:02 PM

Yup, DDT, that was pretty much the way it went down... And, yes, Reconstruction held Jim Crow off until Hayes was sworn into office...

I might add that the Reconstruction/occupation was considered a poke in the eye to Southerners... This 'caused a double does of hatred for black folks and by early 1877 Jim Crow and the Klan were chompin' at the bit to punish black folks and have been at it, at some level, ever since...

In 1979 a non-violent, legal civil rights march occurred in Greensboro, NC... The Klan set up on the parade route and shot and killed 5 demonstrators... None were charged???

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Was Abe Really All That Honest?
From: Henry Krinkle
Date: 17 Nov 12 - 04:37 PM

Lincoln was scum.
=(:-( ))

Subject: RE: BS: Was Abe Really All That Honest?
From: gnu
Date: 17 Nov 12 - 03:34 PM

Food for thought, DDT.

Subject: RE: BS: Was Abe Really All That Honest?
From: GUEST,DDT
Date: 17 Nov 12 - 03:05 PM

To get back on the subject, if that wouldn't be too much trouble, it's impossible to separate the various phases of the Civil War and aftermath as though they are somehow unrelated. Reconstruction, the 13th, 14th and 15th amendments, Reconstruction and Jim Crow are simply effects of causes and causes of effects. Lincoln wanted to get the Emancipation Proclamation into effect by 1862 but knew he couldn't do it until he had a big victory on the battlefield. That came at Antietam when Union forces stopped the Confederate Army from taking over Maryland. He put the Proclamation into effect on January 1, 1863. This Proclamation was not a law as it was never ratified by Congress. It was an executive order.

Lincoln had no authority to end slavery by Proclamation in states in the Union so states as Kentucky, Maryland, Delaware and the like were exempt. It targeted 10 states which were in rebellion against the Union and basically said that as they fell under union control, the slaves in the region were automatically freed. Contrary to the belief that it freed no slaves immediately, it freed tens of thousands in areas of the South under control of the Union Army but millions more were not yet freed. No slaves in the Union states were freed.

Lincoln's purpose for the Emancipation Proclamation was to prevent slaves in areas taken over the by Union Army from being seized as contraband and furthermore allowed them to join the Union Army. So what Lincoln was doing was creating an ever-expanding army that didn't require Northern volunteers or conscripts. As the Union Army pushed into the South, the army became self-perpetuating by signing on newly freed slaves as soldiers.

The major effect of the Emancipation Proclamation was that it made freeing the slaves the main goal of the war and gave the Union the impetus to do it because it enabled them to win the war faster.

While Lincoln did reply to Horace Greeley that he would not free a single slave if it meant ripping the Union apart, this was a calculated statement. If the Union was ripped apart, then that meant he had lost the war and he would not have the authority to end slavery anywhere. It was a statement made to quiet those who were angrily saying that white people were being forced to die in order to free blacks from servitude. Lincoln's actions spoke louder than his words--he was out to end slavery, that he saw emancipation as a condition of a Union victory. If he did not end it, the problems that led up to the war would still be present and so the war would flare up again and again. To truly win the war, slavery had to die.

Lincoln reiterated that emancipation was the main goal in the Gettysburg Address by stating that this govt was founded on the proposition that all men are created equal and that this was the principle over which so many men had died in that war and that they must not have died in vain and that if we carried on with the task for which they died, this nation would "have a new birth of freedom" so that the govt founded 87 years earlier wouldn't end up on the scrap heap of history. It's difficult to understand what else he could have meant if not the abolition of slavery.

The following year, Lincoln pushed for the 13th amendment to the Constitution abolishing slavery throughout the US and "on any place subject to their jurisdiction." It was formally adopted to the Constitution on December of 1865.

As far as Lincoln suspending the Writ of Habeas Corpus, he was perfectly within his right to do it. The Writ could be legally suspended during rebellions or invasions. Lincoln suspended it in states under rebellion in order to get control. Jefferson Davis also suspended the Writ of Habeas Corpus in Confederate states in rebellion. He also had Yankees that lived just south of the Mason-Dixon line imprisoned without trial just as Lincoln had done with Southerners living just north of the line.

The real cause of Jim Crow was not Reconstruction. Reconstruction was actually preventing Jim Crow. But after Hayes withdrew federal troops from the South, the democrats took over and passed the "Black Codes" upon which the Jim Crow era was ushered in. While the Klan may have in certain instances protected black communities from marauders and while black militias did often get out of hand and commit crimes, the Klan stood steadfastly against Reconstruction, Radical Republicanism and "negro rule." They killed, maimed and intimidated anyone they dubbed a carpetbagger, scalawag or radical republican. They killed any blacks who spoke or against white supremacy rule and so contributed to the very lawlessness and corruption they decried.

So whose honesty should really be at question here?

Subject: RE: BS: Was Abe Really All That Honest?
From: Greg F.
Date: 17 Nov 12 - 11:06 AM

Get over yourself, Liz.

Subject: RE: BS: Was Abe Really All That Honest?
From: Henry Krinkle
Date: 17 Nov 12 - 06:48 AM

*ClapClapClapClap!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!*
=(:-( D)

Subject: RE: BS: Was Abe Really All That Honest?
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 17 Nov 12 - 06:29 AM

>>>Ah yes, Lizzie, that from the self-appointed, Wašicun spokeswoman for the Lakota - who are perfectly able to speak for themselves without your patronizing "Adopt-the-Native Americans As Pets" help.

One of the fools that Russell would not have suffered is YOU!.<<<


Actually, he would have. Why? Because I'm as steamingly angry as Russell is over how Native Americans are *still* being treated to this day.

WHERE did you get your deeply insulting and highly patronizing 'Adopt-A-Native' idea from? Sure as hell ain't from me..

I'm merely around to open the eyes of those who want them opened that Genocide against Indigenous People still carries on to this day, albeit in a more covert way, such as the alcohol stores on the borders of Pine Ridge, at White Clay, the children taken from their families to be fostered out in white foster homes, despite there being many Native foster homes willing and wanting to take the children in until their parents can be helped...The highest suicide rate in the world, the highest levels of diabetes, shortest life-expectancy in America etc...etc..etc..

When the Lakota tried desperately to shut down those evil drink stores in White Clay, protesting peacefully, linking their arms via tubes and lying down in the road, trying so hard to get the world to wake up and see what is happening, do you know what happened? The police arrived, pepper-sprayed many, including a 10 year old boy, then they got a CATTLE truck and put the protestors in there, still linked arm in arm via tubes, loaded them in a long line, standing up, like cattle, then drove them off...probably breaking every safety rule in the process!

I don't want anyone to 'adopt-a-native' as you so crudely put it! Nor do I 'fantasize' about Native American men, as someone once said to me, thus being whizzed off my FB page faster than he could ever imagine.

I KNOW what it's like to lose a child! I KNOW just a little, some of the pain those Mothers felt when their children were taken from them, the years of pain that followed them the rest of their lives!

I am sickened by the New Agers who want to be Native American, taking their Spirituality and 'selling it' to those who want to 'join in the fun'..This is NOT FUN!

It is about fecking RESPECT!!!!!!

It is about GAP being made to withdraw their 'Manifest Destiny' T Shirt, whilst being shot up the bum by people such as me who phoned them up and gave them hell, reducing the woman at the other end almost to tears once she had FINALLY understood the HORRORS that brought to the Native Americans, how it is STILL in use today as well! She had NO KNOWLEDGE WHATSOEVER of the People her company had insulted SO Deeply!!   Neither did the fecking Designer who thought it was a bit of a hoot, adding deep insult to injury with trashy comments he put on his Twitter page afterwards, ONLY withdrawing them and apologising when he realized he could damage his fecking career!

It's about No Doubt withdrawing their feckingly insulting video, as they did the other day...having to be bloody well TOLD in the first place! And it's about Victoria's Fecking Secret also apologizing for having their models canoodling down the catwalk with Indian Headresses draped over their knickers!!

It's about a People who have had ENOUGH and who are finally standing together to say it out LOUD!

It is why I do ALL I can to HELP them in any way possible, be it in getting the name of Pe'Sla out there, getting many to donate, as happened earlier, in August, when so many great people from my Support Chief Raoni page shared the 'Last Real Indians' Pe'Sla campaign out around the world!

It is why some Native Americans ask me to be on various pages...

It is why I speak out and stand up for AIM, against Denise Maloney Pictou and the terrible damage she is so intent on inflicting on people who cannot answer her back! It is why I stand up to the bullying group she has aligned herself to, including fecking Paul Demain and his FBI buddies, the Trimbachs and Ed Woods of this world!

So, get OFF my back, Greg. YOU started this with your highly insulting remark!

I can fecking well ASSURE you that Russell Means and I would have got on very well, for he would have seen not 'another white woman wanting to be Indian' but a woman as fearsomely angry as he could be at times, angry about the same things, for the same reasons and also for very different reasons too, for it was the Sociopathic forefathers of her People who did so much terrible damage to his..and it is the dumbed down, numbed down present people of her race who, to this day, choose to look away, believe what Hollywood wanted them to believe and pretend that 'the Indians got what they deserved!'....

And EVERYTIME someone writes to me to tell me that they have learnt so much from my page, that they never realized what the Native Americans have had to endure and still do, to this day, then I KNOW that I am doing exactly the kind of thing that Russell Means wants us ALL to be doing, and that is taking his message out to the world, and now, with Russell gone on ahead, there is a far greater need than ever before to carry on his work in this world....

These are my final words in here, for I'm no longer going to degrade myself, or the Native American Cause in allowing you to use a People whom I care very deeply about for your own agenda.

Subject: RE: BS: Was Abe Really All That Honest?
From: Henry Krinkle
Date: 17 Nov 12 - 05:08 AM

Keeps him on his toes, too!
=(:-( D)

Subject: RE: BS: Was Abe Really All That Honest?
From: Henry Krinkle
Date: 17 Nov 12 - 01:41 AM

A turnip a day
Keeps Greg happy.
=(:-( D)

Subject: RE: BS: Was Abe Really All That Honest?
From: GUEST,Big Al Whittle
Date: 16 Nov 12 - 08:00 PM

Of course he was honest - if he were dishonest, he would have had one of those false beards like they had in that Gettysburg film.

Subject: RE: BS: Was Abe Really All That Honest?
From: Greg F.
Date: 16 Nov 12 - 06:10 PM

Ah yes, Lizzie, that from the self-appointed, Wašicun spokeswoman for the Lakota - who are perfectly able to speak for themselves without your patronizing "Adopt-the-Native Americans As Pets" help.

One of the fools that Russell would not have suffered is YOU!.

Good night.

Subject: RE: BS: Was Abe Really All That Honest?
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 16 Nov 12 - 05:48 PM

Actually, I would...John Trudell too....and a whole lotta others...

Enjoy the turnip..

And as I said, if you want to continue to help The Lakota, now that Russell is no longer here to fight for them, then help them save Pe'Sla, because if they lose that too it will be yet another part of their Heart gone..

They need many more to fight for them and with them now that Russell has moved on....so stop wasting your time arguing with me...and realize that Russell Means would have actually enjoyed talking with me, (as I would have with him) because he'd have known how deeply I respect his People...and how intolerant of Turnip Trotters I am, same as he was...for one of the many things I loved about Russell Means is that he did not suffer fools gladly and he said exactly what he thought, becoming ragingly angry about the injustice towards his People. He was a good man, who knew he had faults and had done wrong things in the past but had the guts to admit to them, but he never, ever stopped fighting.

There will be several more ceremonies for Russell next year..I suggest you find out about them and attend..and hopefully, a little bit of Russell will float down on to you from above...and improve your Communication Skills no end.

Thank you.

Subject: RE: BS: Was Abe Really All That Honest?
From: Greg F.
Date: 16 Nov 12 - 05:37 PM

Ah, Lizzie, you wouldn't know Russel Means if he bit you on the ass.

Have a good, self-important evening yourself.

Subject: RE: BS: Was Abe Really All That Honest?
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 16 Nov 12 - 05:34 PM

This should do....nice and fresh too