BS: Was Abe Really All That Honest?

Subject: RE: BS: Was Abe Really All That Honest?
From: Greg F.
Date: 16 Nov 12 - 05:23 PM

Not a death match at all Artixes - just a free exchange of ideas.

However, I will admit that it violates W.S. Gilbert's maxim: "That he who'd make his fellow creatures wise, must always gild the philosophic pill."

Ta.

Subject: RE: BS: Was Abe Really All That Honest?
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 16 Nov 12 - 05:21 PM

Artixes...if ONLY Mudcat had 'like' buttons, you'd be getting your button pushed by me, for sure. ;0) 20/10 for your posts! :0)

Subject: RE: BS: Was Abe Really All That Honest?
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 16 Nov 12 - 05:20 PM

Please, be sure to make it a VERY LARGE Turnip, Greg...

And hey, maybe you'd like to help raise some money for Pe'Sla...they've got $1.5MILLION to raise by the end of this month...

It would be SO much better than you sitting there pontificating...You'll find a link to the site on the Support Chief Raoni FB page...at the top, left handside....

Have a good evening....
And hey, make yourself a date with Looking Back Woman, methinks the two of you would make the perfect couple...

And yes, Russell Means *will* be chuckling over that remark, I can assure you..

Subject: RE: BS: Was Abe Really All That Honest?
From: GUEST,Artixes the Great
Date: 16 Nov 12 - 05:17 PM

Is this a death match by sarcasm? They used to have those on the planet Gnaxos, but they discontinued the custom as it was creating so much social friction and hatred. No one has died by sarcasm on Naxos in 500 years of their calendar...about 813 of your Earth years. It was said to be a particularly horrible way to die..."death by a thousand tiny cuts"...and it sometimes even proved fatal to both combatants...rather like dueling with poisoned blades.

We would consider it a barbarous practice. Death matches by sarcasm are simply not permitted any longer in the Federation. A lofty sneer is punishable by being placed in solitary for approximately 3 earth days. A snide remark results in further solitary confinement. Rude gestures to indicate contempt result in being cut to half-rations. Lowering the apparel to expose the nether regions from behind as a sign of deep disrespect results in being tossed into a pit of angry Nyhobbers (small, fierce animals similar to your "shrew").

Yes, there are some things which simply cannot be tolerated, even in the Federation where we practice tolerance as far as we are able.

Subject: RE: BS: Was Abe Really All That Honest?
From: Greg F.
Date: 16 Nov 12 - 04:45 PM

Ah, Lizzie The Great, I prostrate myself before your magnificence and especial omniscience - forgive me for questioning the knowledge and erudition of the all-knowing and all-seeing entity that is Lizzie Cornish about all things Native American ( altho from a continent 3000+ miles away and with no direct experience of the things she prates on about )- Lizzie, the chosen one and Representative on Earth of The Great Spitit, Wakan Tanka, Quetzalcoatl, The Husk-Faces and False Faces, the Old People and all the other spirits of The Four Directions.

And no, you are most definately NOT "OK", if the drivel you post is indicative.

Get help.

Soon.

For your own good.

Subject: RE: BS: Was Abe Really All That Honest?
From: GUEST,Artixes the Grey
Date: 16 Nov 12 - 04:37 PM

Ah! Another interesting bit of information about Earth culture.

"applying a turnip to the inner regions of the nether regions is said to be quite beneficial"

Fascinating! Turnips are already listed amongst our catalog of edible Earth plant products, but I had not heard previously about their therapeutic use for illnesses of the nether regions. Pretentious Prat Syndrome sounds like a painful and possibly very serious ailment.

Making note to self: must have medical lab team look into this as soon as possible and secure suitable Earth subjects for experimentation and in order to find a reliable cure for PPS. Where to look? That is the question. Perhaps in the area of Earth called the UK?

Subject: RE: BS: Was Abe Really All That Honest?
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 16 Nov 12 - 04:23 PM

>>>Lizzie, get help. Please. You're gonna hurt yourself.<<<

Thanks for the concern, but really, I'm OK. Unlike others I'm not suffering from Pretentious Prat Syndrome. However, I have heard that if one is suffering from it, applying a turnip to the inner regions of the nether regions is said to be quite beneficial.

Try it and see, Greg...
And,please, do let me know how it goes...

:0)

Subject: RE: BS: Was Abe Really All That Honest?
From: GUEST,Artixes the Grey
Date: 16 Nov 12 - 03:19 PM

Well put, Greg. Indeed, it is Federation policy to limit contacts with Earthlings to the bare minimum required in order to gather useful scientific information and observe changing conditions on your planet. Any contact at all is considered somewhat dangerous, particularly where your governments are concerned, but we feel it is nevertheless justified for both scientific and altruistic reasons.

Subject: RE: BS: Was Abe Really All That Honest?
From: Greg F.
Date: 16 Nov 12 - 02:52 PM

True, Artixes the Grey, I lied. Or mis-spoke. Or some such.

I'm afraid its just another example the human condition. Can't trust any of us, wch is why the Tralfamadorians justifiably keep us at arms length.

Subject: RE: BS: Was Abe Really All That Honest?
From: Greg F.
Date: 16 Nov 12 - 02:49 PM

Lizzie, get help. Please. You're gonna hurt yourself.

Subject: RE: BS: Was Abe Really All That Honest?
From: GUEST,Lizzie Cornish
Date: 16 Nov 12 - 02:48 PM

Well, if you knew Russell Means, I sure as hell hope you're out there defending him from the Bastards who, even as he was dying, were busy filling the internet with the nastiest things they could think of to write about him...And of course, the day he died, well, they had a party!

So, get off YOUR fucking High Horse, Greg and don't you DARE patronize me, for I've come into contact with MANY Native Americans these past years, who have ALL treated me with kindness and respect, other than the ones who trawl around slagging off Russell and Leonard, for they see me as one of their biggest enemies these days, even writing their sick little blogs about me....

Do NOT come the Big I Am with me, for it doesn't work, not one bloody iota!!!

And if you want to find out who says that some of them were innocent, then why don't you talk to some of the folks you allegedly knew....

Now, feck off and back off....
Thank you.

Subject: RE: BS: Was Abe Really All That Honest?
From: GUEST,Artixes the Grey
Date: 16 Nov 12 - 02:43 PM

True. He certainly could have. But it would have been in vain. Still, I suppose it might have led to further fruitful cultural exchange and possibly trade.

In retrospect, it is perhaps regrettable that he did not.

As you are clearly a stickler for logic, however, may I point out an inconsistency in your own communications. You said "This time. I'm REALLY outa here." But then you returned! This does not compute.

Subject: RE: BS: Was Abe Really All That Honest?
From: Greg F.
Date: 16 Nov 12 - 02:37 PM

I didn't say they would have agreed, I said Abe could have asked!

;>)

Subject: RE: BS: Was Abe Really All That Honest?
From: GUEST,Artixes the Grey
Date: 16 Nov 12 - 02:33 PM

I think not. The Tralfamadorians have always wisely refrained from taking sides in quarrels between Earthlings, so I think they would have been unwilling to mediate in that conflict.

Subject: RE: BS: Was Abe Really All That Honest?
From: Greg F.
Date: 16 Nov 12 - 01:35 PM

Lincoln could have met with Jefferson Davis and proposed a constitutional amendment releasing the Southern States..

Not and maintain the Union & Constitution he was sworn to uphold, protect & defend.

Lincoln COULD also have contacted the inhabitants of the planet Tralfamadore and asked them to mediate the situation. ;>)

This time. I'm REALLY outa here.

All best,

Greg

Subject: RE: BS: Was Abe Really All That Honest?
From: Henry Krinkle
Date: 16 Nov 12 - 01:19 PM

Let's discuss Zachary Taylor. He's buried out behind my dad's house. Was he poisoned?
=(:-( ))

Subject: RE: BS: Was Abe Really All That Honest?
From: Bobert
Date: 16 Nov 12 - 01:19 PM

Greg, ol' buddy...

There is no answer to the "slavery was on it's way out" question any more than Saddam being able to prove he didn't have WMDs... That is a trick question... People make choices all the time on probabilities, trends and patterns...

I mean, I could ask you the same question in reverse... It would go something like this: Would the South ended slavery without the war??? And please provide your evidence...

See??? I think we can logically get beyond that question... I believe the South would have... Maybe you don't...

Same with the oath... It was no secret the Southern states wanted out of the Union... The firebrands had been ranting for years... Might of fact the entire concept of "federalism" had never been sufficiently agreed upon in spite of the the 1803 decision in Murbury v. Madison...

Lincoln could have met with Jefferson Davis and proposed a constitutional amendment releasing the Southern States... That would have bought him some time... Think of it more as a divorce where even though one party didn't initiate it accepts it for what it is...

Oaths can be tricky... Google Grover Norquist... I mean, 625,000 men wouldn't have died had Lincoln been more creative...

Lastly, you seem to think that because I do not agree with you that I am not dealing with "reality"... You know better than that, Greg... I am dealing very much with reality... The reality is that the unCivil War didn't ***have*** to happen... The reality is that it did... The reality is that in many ways there is a low grade civil war that has never ended... The reality is that I am neither a Southern Apologist nor a Lincoln Worshiper... I am a historian that just doesn't buy the mythology that this war was gonna happen no matter what...

I offer no apologies for slavery, for radical Southern firebrands, for Radical Republican firebrands, for Lincoln, for Davis... My interest in history is that it offers lessons... Gosh, if we learned nothin' from 625,000 men killed then that disrespects each and every one of them...

Now, I'm going to do what I wished Lincoln had done and leave this alone...

We've been too good of friends, Greg, for me to take it any further... My mamma might have been a pistol in her day but she also taught me grace...

Peace...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Was Abe Really All That Honest?
From: Greg F.
Date: 16 Nov 12 - 01:08 PM

Most of those hanged were thought to be innocent.

THOUGHT by who, Lizzie? Do you have any evidence to present here that they WERE innocent?

the way the Native Americans have been treated and are STILL being treated, to this day, is shocking and deeply appalling.

No argument.

But get off your high horse. I KNEW Russell Means.

Subject: RE: BS: Was Abe Really All That Honest?
From: Henry Krinkle
Date: 16 Nov 12 - 11:58 AM

Stinkin' Lincoln.
=(:-( P)

Subject: RE: BS: Was Abe Really All That Honest?
From: Greg F.
Date: 16 Nov 12 - 11:31 AM

Bobert-

I now see we've been and are talking at cross purposes.

You're talking could have, might have, maybe would have, speculation and imagination.

I'm talking what actually did happen, what actually led up to what happened, what actually resulted from what happened, and historical reality.

Historians don't imagine the "what iffs" except as an entertaiment or mental exercise. That ain't real - that's speculation or amateur fortune -telling, and deterministic fortune telling at that.

Anything, absolutely ANYTHING "might have been". But that ain't reality.

With 20/20 hindsight its easy - and disingenuous - to condemn an historical individual's actions based on what they did not know or COULD not know at the time they were alive.

Ya' know, there are Civil War "round-tables" everywhere where people discuss strategies, tactics, troop movements, generals, etc...Anyone can do that... Your point being? I haven't done that, nor would I care to. Irrelevant.

You did not answer the "slavery on the way out" question. You did not answer the Lincoln oath of office question.

"Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it." is George Santayana, and he was talking about historical reality, not myth, fantasy and imagination. I suspect that Voltaire would feel the same.

So I will bow out. Anytime you'd like to continue this as a discussion of reality, be glad to do so. Feel free to continue discussing fantasy with others who may choose to do so.

Be well, amigo.

Greg

Subject: RE: BS: Was Abe Really All That Honest?
From: Bobert
Date: 16 Nov 12 - 10:56 AM

Yo, Greg...

First, my hypothesis is that the USA and CSA would either reunite down the road or, more likely be allies today, as the USA and Canada are... That is not an unreasonable...

You asking me to prove hypothetical outcomes is academically lazy on your part... No one can... Yes, it is always easier to debate real history than to take yourself back and "imagine" different outcomes...

I can imagine a much more civilized outcome than what we have endured...

Second, you can Google up "abolition movement" as well as I can and see for yourself that the slavery was on its way out even down here in Dixieland... Beginning in the late 1700s countries were outlawing slavery and list isn't short... Google it...

Again, with the international abolitionist movement I think anyone would hard pressed to argue (and prove) that the South would still have slavery today had the CSA been allowed to go...

Third, yeah, we agree... There were a lot of Southern firebrands just like there are today... BTW, I have read a lot of old newspapers from that day... When I was in college there was a library at the "Daughters of the Confederacy" in Richmond where you could read the real newspapers, not microfish... I spent many hours reading those papers... Not much has changed from some of the stuff we hear and read today from tin-foil nation...

In April of 1861 Lincoln had choices... One was to honor a Constitution that Thomas Jefferson even warned us might need to be revisited from time to time and resupply Ft. Sumpter after shots were fired by cadets at the Citadel at a boat carrying troops and supplies or...

...withdraw troops from Sumpter...

He had those choices... He picked the first having to know that a major show of force in the Charleston Harbor would be provocative... Seems that's how most wars get started...

Ya' know, there are Civil War "round-tables" everywhere where people discuss strategies, tactics, troop movements, generals, etc...

Anyone can do that...

What a lot of folks can't do, however, is go back and find where a decision here or there could cause so much damage... Voltaire, as well as others, said that "those who don't know history tend to repeat it"... Part of being a historian is not debating strategies and tactics but the bigger "What if's"...

After seeing just how much damage has been inflicted on our nation by this war and just how it never really has ended (see electoral map) I'm sticking with my conclusion/hypothesis that it was a terrible mistake that could have been avoided had either side wanted to avoid it...

I do not hold Southerner blameless... Yes, they acted poorly but...

..takes two to tango...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Was Abe Really All That Honest?
From: Greg F.
Date: 16 Nov 12 - 10:13 AM

Now, Bobert, you're either being disingenuous or just plain silly.

RE: post of 15 Nov 12 - 08:54 PM

1. Thinks about it this way, Greg...

I CAN'T think about it "that way" Bobert, nor should you or any rational being - because Lincoln didn't have a crystal ball and didn't know the future. In 1861 he dodn't "know" what was going to happen in 1862, never mind 1877 or 1963. Nor can he be held responsible for "causing" things after he was dead- especially 150 years after he was dead.

2.Slavery was on its way out even here in the South...[in 1861]

I asked you to substantiate this claim before, & you didn't even try; here's another chance.

Since chattel slavery as practiced in the U.S. was unique among the slave societies of the world, what makes you think things "would" have developed in the U.S. the way they did in the rest of the world. That and the fact that world-wide demand for cotton & other slave-produced commodities from the U.S.was on the increase? What is the evidence that slavery was "on the way out" in the U.S. in 1860?

3. Lincoln made a decision to push the South in re-supplying Sumpter... Lincoln knew the consequences... Lincoln picked war

This is one of the silliest contentions of the "Lost Cause" myth. Mean, nasty, unscrupulous, tricky Abe conned them poor, dumb, ignorant, Southern bumpkins and forced the South to war.

C'mon! Take a look -a real look - at the history of the U.S from the Missouri Compromise up to 1860. Read the speeches of the Southern senators & congressmen. Read the editorials in the Charleston "Mercury" and the Richmond "Examiner" & etc. Read the several Ordinances of Secession.

If you need identify a single individual who "picked war" try either Edmund Ruffin or Colonel James Chesnut, Jr, or Lieutenant Henry S. Farley.

4. You also never answered how Lincoln could tell Jeff Davis, "Have a nice day"... and uphold his presidental oath & preserve & defend the Union.

I'm not trying to be a pain in the ass, Bobert- I'm really curious about your positions on these.

Greg

Subject: RE: BS: Was Abe Really All That Honest?
From: Henry Krinkle
Date: 16 Nov 12 - 09:37 AM

I hope Georgia secedes. I don't want to fund the DoD.
It's part of the problem.
=(:-( ))

Subject: RE: BS: Was Abe Really All That Honest?
From: Bobert
Date: 16 Nov 12 - 09:24 AM

Nice video, brucie...

Not to fear, dude... Greg and I are okay... We ain't Siamese twins, thou and come to some things from different perspectives... Hey, that's what makes below-the-line, ahhhhh, below-the-line...

We both on the same page on just how messed up the South is but, hey, as messed up as it is it's gotta-a-lotta, too...

One of the really messed up things going down now is succession movements by all the washrag, crybaby Republicans... So, like their Southern Democrats in 1860, they want out??? Fine with me... The DoD funds 94 - count 'um - military bases in red states... Red states get back $1.25 for every $1.00 they pay in federal taxes... Hey, if the majority of Texans vote to succeed then I say, "Don't let the door hit ya' on the way out and we're taking those 15 bases out, all the Social Security, Medicare, highway funds and every dime that we're now giving ya'... Oh, BTW, good luck with the 2nd Mexican War 'cause we ain't coming to save yer asses... Bye-d-bye"...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Was Abe Really All That Honest?
From: GUEST,Lizzie Cornish
Date: 16 Nov 12 - 05:53 AM

I made a mistake with the timing on the video above.

The Mayor of Mankota starts his moving speech just over I hour and 7 minutes in....

Apologies..

Subject: RE: BS: Was Abe Really All That Honest?
From: Henry Krinkle
Date: 16 Nov 12 - 04:54 AM

I agree with you., Lizzie. Well said.
=(:-( ))

Subject: RE: BS: Was Abe Really All That Honest?
From: GUEST,Lizzie Cornish
Date: 16 Nov 12 - 04:01 AM

Please, if you didn't watch this earlier when I posted it, please, please take around 1 hour and 30minutes to watch....


At hour and 18 minutes in you will hear the Mayor of Mankota making his wonderful and deeply moving speech.

Imagine if Lincoln had said what this dear man says, just imagine...

Dakota 38 - Youtube

I am well aware that Lincoln brought the numbers of those to be hanged, down. He still went ahead with it though. Most of those hanged were thought to be innocent. The whole incident happened ONLY because the Native Americans were being starved...and instead of lambasting The Bastards who did this, who *caused* this tragedy to happen, he went along with them and on Boxing Day, hanged 38 men, who joined together in song as they died...

MANY innocent people lost their lives during this time, but never did ANY American President have the GUTS to stand up and say "Shit! WHAT are we doing to these loving and innocent people whose land we have invaded, whose way of life we are tearing apart, who history we are trying to wipe out! Holey SHITE but WHAT has happened to us, as White People????"

And I cannot even begin to imagine how EVERY Native American must feel every time they have to use the dollar bill with Jackson's face on it.

I'm sorry, but the way the Native Americans have been treated and are STILL being treated, to this day, is shocking and deeply appalling.

Most people talk about Black Americans with total ease and great knowledge of what happened to their people, but the majority don't give shite about the Native Americans to this day. It's why they, as a People, are still drinking themselves senseless, feeling, in the main, so utterly lost and deeply hopeless.

It's why Russell Means NEVER stopped fighting for them all to the end of his days and why tears would fall from his eyes in an instant when he spoke of how he saw the Grandpas and their grandchildren rooting through trash cans trying to find food at times...

I do not romanticise them as a People, for there are good and bad everywhere, but I have the greatest respect and the deepest sorrow for the Native American People, for I feel very much that so many of them are pushed aside, out of sight, out of mind...and they will remain so, purely because they ARE the Original People of this land now called 'America' and to this day that still brings fear, resentment and a feeling of great discomfort to many Americans. Many other Americans know shit-all about the Indigenous People of their country, nor do they want to, for they regard it as *their* country now and the Native Americans, in their eyes, should have 'got over it' decades back..

Subject: RE: BS: Was Abe Really All That Honest?
From: Henry Krinkle
Date: 16 Nov 12 - 02:40 AM

Andrew Jackson. Now there's a real stampeder.
=(:-( o)

Subject: RE: BS: Was Abe Really All That Honest?
From: GUEST,999
Date: 16 Nov 12 - 02:25 AM

What I hereby suggest is that you two bros--both being from below the MD line--ease up. OK?

Here in the north, we herniate when good people argue. We carry on anyway, but get real bitchy after the herniation. Capiche?

Get back to the corners and let your trainers toss it in. No one ever wins in a serious fight. Someone loses less, that's all.

Subject: RE: BS: Was Abe Really All That Honest?
From: GUEST,999
Date: 16 Nov 12 - 01:48 AM

With love (and kindness).

Subject: RE: BS: Was Abe Really All That Honest?
From: Henry Krinkle
Date: 16 Nov 12 - 01:14 AM

If bobette says Lincoln sucked, Lincoln sucked.
No brag. Just fact.
=(:-( D)

Subject: RE: BS: Was Abe Really All That Honest?
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 15 Nov 12 - 11:45 PM

Big Al Whittle: "No. Hitler would have failed anyway. He was cracked..."

"...It was a damn close run thing. A victory only purchased by the blood of our parents and their friends. Incredibly traumatic for them..."

"He may look crazy in retrospect - but a lot of people thought Hitler had some good ideas - not just Germans either. He was pretty credible at the time."



I think it would be safe to say that Hitler's Germany was defeated, but fascism survived.

..something I noticed as a kid....the country that defeats another country in war becomes just like the enemy they defeated.

...but then, I'm from 'Sanity-Land'

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Was Abe Really All That Honest?
From: Bobert
Date: 15 Nov 12 - 10:15 PM

Yes, brucie... We now have an entire new slave class... 'Cept these days a lot of our slaves have college degrees...

Different story but you are 100% correct...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Was Abe Really All That Honest?
From: GUEST,999
Date: 15 Nov 12 - 10:07 PM

The end of slavery started when the first person who owned a slave thought it was wrong. That goes back thousands of years. Today, we are seeing a new kind of slavery emerge: that of the rich owning the poor. The faces of the players change, but the institution remains.

Subject: RE: BS: Was Abe Really All That Honest?
From: Bobert
Date: 15 Nov 12 - 09:34 PM

Lincoln took the bait, f-prince... Lincoln made a decision to push the South in re-supplying Sumpter... Lincoln knew the consequences... Lincoln picked war...

No, Lincoln couldn't know the consequences of that decision...

My point is simple: if Lincoln knew how things were going to turn out would he have gone forward???

Seems that most folks say, "Yeah, it wads the right thing to do"...

I disagree...

Beginning in 1792 with Denmark abolishing slavery up until Wallacha abolishing it in 1856 just about every country you can name abolished slavery... Slavery was on its way out even here in the South...

My point is that rather than making Lincoln some hero for leading us into the war, the reconstruction, Jim Crow and where we find ourselves today I'd rather have had Lincoln tell Jeff Davis, "Have a nice day"...

This is heresy, I know...

It is what I have come to believe... I'm not a war worshiper... Nor am I a Lincoln worshiper... I think he blew it and I don't understand all this worship...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Was Abe Really All That Honest?
From: frogprince
Date: 15 Nov 12 - 09:11 PM

Bobert, trying to see just how you mean the last two posts; do you mean to imply that, if he had been really wise or principled, Lincoln could have anticipated enough of all that to make different decisions?
If so, it would seem like you would be demanding the wisdom of God of the man.

Subject: RE: BS: Was Abe Really All That Honest?
From: Bobert
Date: 15 Nov 12 - 09:03 PM

Oh, and not to mention the 600,000+ deaths in the war and coming down to the closest thing to a civil war some 150 years later...

Okay, Abe... Make the call...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Was Abe Really All That Honest?
From: Bobert
Date: 15 Nov 12 - 08:54 PM

Thinks about it this way, Greg...

Take yourself back to 1860... You are Lincoln... But you are Lincoln also seeing the next 100 years of Jim Crow... You are Lincoln seeing Reconstruction... You are seeing Lincoln watch the current South resegregating... You are seeing the Republican Party of today using racism to rile up it's base... You are Lincoln seeing the KKK murder civil rights protesters in the streets in 1979 in Greensboro, NC and get away with it... You are Lincoln seeing immense poverty within the black community today...

This ain't about an academics or scholars... You are Lincoln seeing these things in 1860...

You make the call...

B`

Subject: RE: BS: Was Abe Really All That Honest?
From: GUEST,999
Date: 15 Nov 12 - 08:48 PM

"In my home county in Alabama, Limestone, we like to remember how Nathan Bedford Forrest blew up the train trestles between Nashville, the frontier capitol at the time, and Atlanta. For several weeks, the Union army could not send ahead the food and ammunition Sherman would need to continue his march to the sea."

'Get 'em skeered and keep the skeer on 'em.'

Great post, McWilliams. It's funny how our views change over time, but that some views get even clearer as we see more. The histories taught in schools don't mention what you wrote, but it's true. And then when we look at Forrest more closely we get a serious disappointment once again.

Subject: RE: BS: Was Abe Really All That Honest?
From: Greg F.
Date: 15 Nov 12 - 08:35 PM

More recent scholarship ain't the issue

Actually, it is. And the way it can elucidate what the actual situation was.

And there lies the problem, Bobert.

If you're not willing to explore & expand your knowledge, and grow ( as Lincoln did ) then there's nothing I can do.

C'est fini.

Subject: RE: BS: Was Abe Really All That Honest?
From: GUEST,McWilliams
Date: 15 Nov 12 - 07:21 PM

Re: "Abraham Lincoln, the man who said 'Yes!' to the largest mass hanging in America...of Native Americans, of course.."

I'm no hero worshipper of Lincoln (see Doris Kearns Goodwin, Team of Rivals), but every time I look at a $20 US bill, I see the evil bastard, Andrew Jackson. Two generations ahead of Lincoln, hero of the War of 1812, he presided over the Trail of Tears, responsible for the near-total annihilation of tribes of the eastern US. The ones who cooperated were the "civilized tribes." The rest were "savages," whom settlers, army, priests, and others "cleansed" using smallpox infected blankets, diseases for which they had no immunity, considered not fully human, not to mention the "lead poison" pumped into them across the country as the Monroe Doctrine spread west.

Andrew Jackson was a despicable human being. That he was such a hero is testimony to the collective gullibility of a blood-thirsty, uneducated populace.

In my home county in Alabama, Limestone, we like to remember how Nathan Bedford Forrest blew up the train trestles between Nashville, the frontier capitol at the time, and Atlanta. For several weeks, the Union army could not send ahead the food and ammunition Sherman would need to continue his march to the sea.

I live in Indiana now. Eli Lilly, founder of the largest employer here, commanded the battalions of white and black Union solders, trapped inside their own block houses and stockades on each bank of Sulphur Creek. I can't help myself -- even though I see the outcome of The War and the end of slavery as the superior outcome -- I can't resist a chuckle when I realize the chemist had to rebuild the trestles again again because of the brilliant guerrilla leader, spending a fortune while making no forward progress.

Tragic, the insanity of that war remains in the consciousness of white Southerners in such detail -- I think due to the story-telling history of the tragic Scots-Irish settlers of our county. My forebears on both sides were Scots and Irish, some were starving peasants, some displaced aristocrats, all proud, and many owned slaves. Sure, the oppressed became oppressors. Taking all of that history seriously will bring humility if you're lucky and you don't forget.

Abraham Lincoln is the hero because once he did see the light, he did not back away from liberation, and tried to reason with those who would have the South not just vanquished, but utterly destroyed. Would the South have suffered in Reconstruction so quickly, deeply, and for so long (even now?) if Abe had survived? The spineless bastards who followed him could not lead the country in a noble direction.

But of all the Presidents, the one whose memory should never die for its cruelty and avarice, aside from the future Truman murders, is Andrew Jackson. May his memory live forever in infamy.

McWilliams

Subject: RE: BS: Was Abe Really All That Honest?
From: Bobert
Date: 15 Nov 12 - 07:19 PM

Lexdexics learn differently... Maybe you can find a book on it...lol... Very interesting stuff and very real...

More recent scholarship ain't the issue... Lotta people spend 400 pages tryin' to say what can be said in 2500 words... I read lots of 2500 word summaries, articles, book reviews and they are "recent" and current and all that "new millennium" stuff...

BTW, I have no fascination with the war itself... The P-Vine, however, is all over it and so I know more about it than I ever wanted to know from her compulsion... She must have a hundred books on it... Okay, I thought that the Union messed up in the 6 Days Battle south of Richmond... Especially the battle where the Confederates took a bunch of old boats and lit them on fire in the middle of the James River and then fired down on Union boats... That was as retarded a battle plan as any...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Was Abe Really All That Honest?
From: Greg F.
Date: 15 Nov 12 - 05:52 PM

No fightin' here either, Bruce- but if Mr. Bobert won't even LOOK at the more recent scholarship, I'm kinda dead in the water, no?

Guess its the old "agree to disagree" one more time with feeling.... but I sill wish ol' Bobert would update himself. I really do think he'd enjoy the read!!

Be well, the two of ya!!

Best,

Greg

Subject: RE: BS: Was Abe Really All That Honest?
From: Bobert
Date: 15 Nov 12 - 05:37 PM

Sorry, Greg... I'm too lexdexic for books... I do better with shorter articles... If you have a sound understanding of history you can do just fine on the inter net and not be snowed... I can smell a snow-job in the first 3 paragraphs...

The nice thing about taking "History of the South" in college is that Dr. Rogers was so good that all ya' had to do was just sit there and listen to the guy and take yer time thru the books... BTW, the first semester ended with the 1860 election... Kinda left ya' hanging over Xmas holiday...

BTW, Part B... Dr. Rogers might not agree with my position but if he were still alive (which he isn't) he would respectfully listen to it... Kinda wished to have had an opportunity to talk with him about it...

And, brucie, I ain't fightin'...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Was Abe Really All That Honest?
From: GUEST,999
Date: 15 Nov 12 - 05:24 PM

Between you two guys, you probably know more about the Civil War than any other people on this site. Y'oughta talk about it instead of fight with each other. Since I'm friends with both of you, that would be good to read. IMO.

Subject: RE: BS: Was Abe Really All That Honest?
From: Greg F.
Date: 15 Nov 12 - 05:08 PM

Hey, Bobert-

Do yourself a favor ( and I mean this kindly - not as a taunt or condemnation ) and read at least the books that I mentioned above.

Internet research on the Civil War? Please. That's the bailiwick of crazies. Try the real historians. I think you'd actually appreciate what they have to say. Books is where the real info is - not in cyberspace.

But I still can't figure out how you can blame Abe for things that happened from the point following his death & and for the succeeding 50+ years.

Be well-

Greg

Subject: RE: BS: Was Abe Really All That Honest?
From: Bobert
Date: 15 Nov 12 - 04:59 PM

Greg,

I, in no way, have any love for the pre-war Southern Democrat'd behavior... The entire period was a slobber-knocker... The election of 1860 was a slobber knocker... I find it interesting that the Constitutional Union Party carried the three states that would see more battles combined (not deaths) than any other three state combination...

As for continuing to study the Civil War??? No, I don't do books that much anymore... I do independent research on the inter net... There is a lot of stuff there where you get more perspectives without havonmg to wade thru books... I will, however, read articles by writers which tend to put forth their hypothesis without all the wading... The wading in tiresome...

I was very fortunate to take both semesters of "History of the South" under Dr. Rogers as an under-grad who at the time was the dean of the history department at VCU...

BTW, the position that I hold on the war isn't at all popular in most Southern academic communities... It seems to be more the birthers and tin-foilers and die-hard rednecks who wouldn't like my alternate view of hos things could could have worked out better for everyone...

Might of fact, there are very few of us that hold this position based on knowledge of history and the Southern culture... But there are others... Just not that many that I know... But the ones I know I respect for arriving to the same conclusions based on their knowledge as opposed to their emotions...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Was Abe Really All That Honest?
From: Henry Krinkle
Date: 15 Nov 12 - 01:29 PM

Bitch.
=(:-( D)

Subject: RE: BS: Was Abe Really All That Honest?
From: Greg F.
Date: 15 Nov 12 - 01:00 PM

No dispespect Henry,

Can't imagine why not!

Subject: RE: BS: Was Abe Really All That Honest?
From: Henry Krinkle
Date: 15 Nov 12 - 12:39 PM

He was a lawyer. That makes him a professional liar.
As in: How can you tell if a lawyer is lying? His lips are moving.
=(:-( I)