BS: Stop Gun Crime. Leaflet WH Smiths.

Subject: BS: Stop Gun Crime. Leaflet WH Smiths.
From: GUEST,Fred McCormick
Date: 29 Nov 12 - 06:52 AM

I've just received an email from Animal which may be of interest to people on the UK side of the pond. It reads:

"On 15 December, activists will be leafleting outside WH Smith stores across the UK, to ask for gun magazines to be moved to the 'top shelf' – out of the reach of children – and for their sale to be restricted to over-18s. A recent NOP survey showed that the overwhelming majority of the public are on our side.

Please help – even for an hour – by leafleting outside your local WH Smith on 15 December."

For more details contact [e-mail] and see http://www.animalaid.org.uk/h/n/NEWS/news_shooting//2739//

Subject: RE: BS: Stop Gun Crime. Leaflet WH Smiths.
From: olddude
Date: 29 Nov 12 - 08:42 AM

Why? I would rather have them trained then not knowing anything about them and then getting old enough to hunt and shoot themselves or is it different across the pond ... don't know enough so I shouldn't comment I guess

Subject: RE: BS: Stop Gun Crime. Leaflet WH Smiths.
From: GUEST,Fred McCormick
Date: 29 Nov 12 - 09:06 AM

It is very different on this side of the pond. We have strict handgun control laws, although not strict enough in my opinion, and we don't have the "freedom to bear arms" culture that exists in the USA. Also, while hunting with guns is legal over here, I suspect it attracts nothing like the following it has in the States.

Personally I'd like to see the UK completely gun free, and I particularly dislike the idea of children messing about with them..

Subject: RE: BS: Stop Gun Crime. Leaflet WH Smiths.
From: Megan L
Date: 29 Nov 12 - 09:08 AM

The title of this thread is somewhat misleading Animal Aid is an animal welfare group nothing to do with stopping people from killing each other with guns.

Is there some reason Why W H Smith is being singled out for this witch hunt

Subject: RE: BS: Stop Gun Crime. Leaflet WH Smiths.
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 29 Nov 12 - 09:16 AM

WH Smiths are the largest magazine retailers in the country by far. Hunting with guns (or other projectile weapons) is problematic throughout most of the UK as it is difficult to get far enough from other people or houses for safety purposes. Although I was previously unaware of this I don't see it as a witch hunt at all.

Subject: RE: BS: Stop Gun Crime. Leaflet WH Smiths.
From: GUEST,Fred McCormick
Date: 29 Nov 12 - 09:23 AM

It's not a witch hunt. It's simply an effort to stop WH Smith from displaying gun magazines where children can see them and buy them. I imagine WHS has been chosen because it is a national newsagent chain.

Animal Aid's interest in the matter revolves around the fact that it is opposed to the shooting of animals for sport.

Subject: RE: BS: Stop Gun Crime. Leaflet WH Smiths.
From: Midchuck
Date: 29 Nov 12 - 09:26 AM

Personally I'd like to see the UK completely gun free...

As it is now completely drug free because drugs are illegal...?

I believe it was Edward Abbey who pointed out that the classic bumper sticker, "If Guns Are Outlawed, Only Outlaws Will Have Guns" is not quite correct.

As he said, the truth is, if guns are outlawed, only outlaws and the government will have guns. That's worse. But there's no point in beating the same old dead horse on this list, I guess.

Peter

Subject: RE: BS: Stop Gun Crime. Leaflet WH Smiths.
From: Amergin
Date: 29 Nov 12 - 09:27 AM

I was taught to shoot by my grandfather and uncles when I was a kid. I was taught how to be responsible. If there are guns in the house, children need to be taught what to do and what not to do. It keeps them from getting hurt.

Subject: RE: BS: Stop Gun Crime. Leaflet WH Smiths.
From: olddude
Date: 29 Nov 12 - 09:35 AM

I guess it is really different in other countries. I could shoot before I could ride a bike but in the mountains hunting and fishing were a way of life growing up. So not knowing about anyone elses culture I should not comment as other countries are different. Where I grew up there were miles and miles of virgin woods and only a few houses.

Subject: RE: BS: Stop Gun Crime. Leaflet WH Smiths.
From: GUEST,999
Date: 29 Nov 12 - 09:41 AM

The animal aid folks are trying to get young people away from the notion that killing creatures is a 'fun thing' to do. I have to agree with them on that aspect of hunting. I think pictures of people standing beside their latest kill makes them look like idiots. If you're a decent shot, there's nothing to killing a deer, rabbit, moose, whatever. Aim, squeeze the trigger and physics handles the rest. The taking of life is not something to be glorified; real hunters don't kill needlessly and for sure they don't glory in it. imo

Subject: RE: BS: Stop Gun Crime. Leaflet WH Smiths.
From: olddude
Date: 29 Nov 12 - 09:47 AM

When all of us hunted, there was one and only one rule. You don't shoot what you don't eat. We hunted to supplement our food supply not to hang heads on the wall. You are so right Bruce. I never once enjoyed killing anything not even a fish. But I like eating what I got

Subject: RE: BS: Stop Gun Crime. Leaflet WH Smiths.
From: GUEST,999
Date: 29 Nov 12 - 09:58 AM

Ditto, Dan.

Subject: RE: BS: Stop Gun Crime. Leaflet WH Smiths.
From: olddude
Date: 29 Nov 12 - 10:01 AM

I absolutely hate the TV shows where the ranches raise the deer and then charge big dollars to have fat cat wealthy guys hunt for a "trophy" you are right, they look like idiots.

sorry for hijacking the thread, please carry on my friend ... sorry for the diversion

Subject: RE: BS: Stop Gun Crime. Leaflet WH Smiths.
From: Pete Jennings
Date: 29 Nov 12 - 10:11 AM

That's right, 999, if you ain't going to eat it and it ain't vermin causing problems, don't shoot it.

The strict UK laws don't only apply to handguns. All guns, except air rifles and air handguns that have muzzle power below 12lbs/ft and 6lbs/ft respectively, have to be licenced and, when not in use, stored in locked steel cabinets which are securely fixed to a wall or similar. Same applies to live ammunition. The police inspect the cabinet and its location as part of the licence application procedure.

Gun licences, except those for shotguns, must state the specific land on which the gun is to be used and, if it's not their land, shooters must carry written permission from the landowner. Getting a bullet gun licence in the UK is not an easy process in the first place, as you can probably imagine.

Subject: RE: BS: Stop Gun Crime. Leaflet WH Smiths.
From: GUEST,Fred McCormick
Date: 29 Nov 12 - 11:43 AM

999. "The animal aid folks are trying to get young people away from the notion that killing creatures is a 'fun thing' to do."

Thanks 999. That's what I was trying to say and not making a very good job of it. There's nothing 'fun thing' about killing any living animal.

Subject: RE: BS: Stop Gun Crime. Leaflet WH Smiths.
From: GUEST,amergin
Date: 29 Nov 12 - 11:58 AM

I should add that I grew up in North Idaho...and yeah, I grew up eating elk, venison, bear, fresh pig, fresh cow, and many other things....

I should also add that I have only killed pop cans, milk jugs, and store bought targets. I myself have never been hunting....by the time I was old enough to go out, no one was doing it anymore. I would like to go out sometime though. Not necessarily to kill something but to have an idea of what I'm talking about if I write about going out. Did that make any sense?

Subject: RE: BS: Stop Gun Crime. Leaflet WH Smiths.
From: GUEST,999
Date: 29 Nov 12 - 12:10 PM

I think you did a fine job of it, Fred. Most folks are on the same page here. I like what Pete, Dan and Amergin said because it pretty much says what I wanted to say. The problem as always with any discussion of guns are the different laws, different cultures and different geographies. I was three feet away from a bullet that grazed a tree at waist height. Some 'hunter' seemed to be shooting at movement without positive ID of the target. I suppose my orange jacket made him think I was a giant woodpecker or robin redbreast. I let off some shots and he didn't fire again. I did have the urge to track him, but when I thought about that I figured no good would come of it.

Subject: RE: BS: Stop Gun Crime. Leaflet WH Smiths.
From: Ernest
Date: 29 Nov 12 - 12:26 PM

Are you going to have the papers with TV-programmes removed too?

There`s a lot of violence and killing on the telly too.

Not only of animals, but also of humans.

Subject: RE: BS: Stop Gun Crime. Leaflet WH Smiths.
From: GUEST,999
Date: 29 Nov 12 - 12:58 PM

Number of murders seen on TV by the time an average child finishes elementary school: 8,000

That is from

http://www.csun.edu/science/health/docs/tv&health.html

Subject: RE: BS: Stop Gun Crime. Leaflet WH Smiths.
From: Pete Jennings
Date: 29 Nov 12 - 01:04 PM

Not to mention those hideous computer games. Who in their right mind thought of making "killing" so easy and realistic. When I was a kid we used to play cowboys and injuns with bits of stick, bang, bang you're dead, but we knew it wasn't real.

God knows what some of today's kids think.

Subject: RE: BS: Stop Gun Crime. Leaflet WH Smiths.
From: Ernest
Date: 29 Nov 12 - 01:07 PM

That number should exceed the number of gun magazines an average child has seen by the time it finishes elementary school.

Subject: RE: BS: Stop Gun Crime. Leaflet WH Smiths.
From: Jack Campin
Date: 29 Nov 12 - 01:57 PM

Knowing pretty well what Animal Aid stands for, I very much doubt if crime is really on their agenda. The sort of people who use guns for criminal activity are not the readership of gun magazines. As I see it those readers fall into two groups:

- people interested in hunting. Which is exactly Animal Aid's concern, but not just directly. Unlike the US, very few of the animals targeted for hunting in the UK are endangered, and the number killed by hunters are far lower. But the destructive effects of hunting go well beyond what gets shot: lead shotgun pellets poison the environment, and the landlords of shooting estates trap and poison large numbers of critically endangered predators (notably eagles). However: not many men take up recreational killing under the age of 18, so the ban doesn't really make sense for that reason. What boy looks at shotgun ads when they're 12 and wanks over the fantasy that they might one day dress up in plus fours and blow small birds away? How would top-shelving these mags achieve anything? Which brings us to the group I think most Animal Aid activists are really concerned about:

- boys who might read these mags, wank over fantasies about killing Arabs, and go on to join the army so they can do it for real with the hardware those mags describe. Animal Aid's membership is pretty much entirely radical pacifists, but at a time when worship of the army is de facto the state religion, they can't very well say that opposing military recruitment propaganda is their concern.

I don't think AA are being entirely honest with the public, but I think I see what they're up to and I support it.

(this is a reworking of something I posted earlier today and which disappeared).

Subject: RE: BS: Stop Gun Crime. Leaflet WH Smiths.
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 29 Nov 12 - 02:11 PM

"If there are guns in the house, children need to be taught what to do and what not to do. It keeps them from getting hurt."

,..,

Oh for god's sake ~~ can't you lamebrains over there get into your thick skulls that THERE ARE NO GUNS IN THE HOUSE HERE!, except those licensed by the police for specific purposes such as 'sport' [so-called!], which licences are only issued subject to strict controls as to their use and storage [where children can have no access], breach of which would get the guns confiscated and the licence withdrawn.

Your system of 'right to bear arms' which means there are guns lying about in every house is completely inapplicable to out situation.

Subject: RE: BS: Stop Gun Crime. Leaflet WH Smiths.
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 29 Nov 12 - 03:55 PM

Shit. I agree with you know who.

Subject: RE: BS: Stop Gun Crime. Leaflet WH Smiths.
From: GUEST,CS
Date: 29 Nov 12 - 04:19 PM

"at a time when worship of the army is de facto the state religion,"

I've really been puzzled over this in recent years and can only attribute it to the unrelenting and incredibly successful "hero" propaganda machine that's been rolled out in the past decade or so. The Army was low on Northern bred wannabe corned beef a number of years back I seem to recall. I don't know how recruitment numbers are right now, but my guess is they're doing alright now.

Subject: RE: BS: Stop Gun Crime. Leaflet WH Smiths.
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 30 Nov 12 - 12:49 AM

Don't cry Richard. It happens from time to time. Just so long as nobody makes a habit of it!

LoL.

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Stop Gun Crime. Leaflet WH Smiths.
From: GUEST,Fred McCormick
Date: 30 Nov 12 - 09:52 AM

As a side issue, I can just about get my head around the news yesterday, about the British soldier who was given a pistol as a souvenir and then forgot its existence. Memory loss, he said. Well, I suppose anything's possible but what had he been planning to do with the 300 rounds of ammunition which were found in the same location ?

Subject: RE: BS: Stop Gun Crime. Leaflet WH Smiths.
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 30 Nov 12 - 10:20 AM

"" If there are guns in the house, children need to be taught what to do and what not to do. It keeps them from getting hurt.""

You can teach children any damn thing you choose and they will still let curiosity trump safety.

There's no shortage of young accidental victims in the US. It's almost unheard of in the UK. You keep the guns! We'll keep our kids.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Stop Gun Crime. Leaflet WH Smiths.
From: GUEST,Big Al Whittle
Date: 30 Nov 12 - 03:14 PM

Well i always wanted an air rifle. The kid next door had one when I was a kid. And now I'm in my 60's I'm having a great time blasting away in my back garden. I'm going to join a gun club and buy a serious weapon that i can shoot in competitions with.

To be honest I get a bit pissed off with the anti gun lobby. I wouldn't want guns all around the place like they are in America. But I always felt sorry for my sister's little boy, who wasn't allowed a toy gun when he was a kid.

As for gun magazines - have you read them....? they could be calculated to put people off owning a gun. I bought one last week, and there's this long article about a man who hides behind dustbins and shoots rats. Seriously....who in their right mind would actually WANT to do that!

As for picketting WH Smiths.... do something useful. Picket a bank! Picket a tory! When will it stop? Are you going to object to people reading fishing magazines, livestck magazines, pornography...guitar magazines....after all think of all those Brazilian forests cut down to make guitars.

It seems a very oblique way of remedying the world's ills.

Subject: RE: BS: Stop Gun Crime. Leaflet WH Smiths.
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 30 Nov 12 - 04:53 PM

I wasn't allowed a gun when a child ~~ but one day I made such a fuss in Woolworth's in Golders Green Road that my mother let me have a little one! logic, eh? From there on in, it was all downhill...

So

Bang Bang! You're dead!

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Stop Gun Crime. Leaflet WH Smiths.
From: GUEST,Patsy
Date: 01 Dec 12 - 03:41 PM

The point made about banning of toy guns in the home reminds me of when my son was small and I thought I would follow that mind set only to find that he had made one out of lego. He had no access to violent material just regular daytime tv. Or so I thought. I questioned him about it. Apparently it was a laser gun, so thats alright then!

Subject: RE: BS: Stop Gun Crime. Leaflet WH Smiths.
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 02 Dec 12 - 06:54 AM

I agree that killing wild creatures (with guns or anything else) is pointless and cruel. Why not let the animals live and enjoy photographing or observing them? As for guns in UK, we do not have any in our houses. Only people such as farmers who need to keep pests down, and those who belong to shooting clubs at competition level have firearms, and they are very very strictly monitored and licensed. This is as it should be, and I totally agree that children should not have access to literature such as gun magazines on newsagents' shelves. It's bad enough here with the increase in knife crime and the carrying of knives. We don't want guns as well, thank you very much! As to violent TV programmes and those dreadful video games, I feel it's obvious they have a sinster effect on the minds of the young. They certainly aren't 'harmless'. I deplore them.

Subject: RE: BS: Stop Gun Crime. Leaflet WH Smiths.
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 02 Dec 12 - 07:07 AM

I don't play video or computer games ~~ never have. I am sure I should find them intensely boring. But it is my impression, from tv ads &c, that every one of them appears to involve war &/or slaughter of some kind? Is this a true impression? If so, would it be beyond anybody's wit to invent some that would be enjoyable to play, but are not so themed and orientated? There was, after all, to take the analogy of board games, Ludo before there was Cluedo [whose name is of course a play on the more traditional game's name]; and Scrabble exists alongside the aggressiveness of Monopoly, which does not involve war, exactly, but its analogue in the [largely crooked~~ "Go to Jail: go immediately to jail; do not pass Go; do not collect $200"} shenanigans of the financial world.

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Stop Gun Crime. Leaflet WH Smiths.
From: GUEST,Big Al whittle
Date: 02 Dec 12 - 07:58 AM

I wonder if practicers of tantric sex and transcendental meditators or even St Teresa in her heightened state of consciousness ever achieved the ecstasy that eight year old boys feel, with a new toy gun from woolies toy counter and three unopened boxes of caps.

Subject: RE: BS: Stop Gun Crime. Leaflet WH Smiths.
From: Jack Campin
Date: 02 Dec 12 - 08:11 AM

It's bad enough here with the increase in knife crime and the carrying of knives.

There is no increase in knife crime. It's been static for years in the UK as a whole (at a slightly lower level than in the US; they just have gun crime as well). The only change has been a shift to a younger age group.

There are a couple of exceptional places where there have been upward blips, notably Glasgow. Educational initiatives seem to be working there (not something I would have expected). But there never was a "Your Chib" magazine that needed to be campaigned against.


people such as farmers who need to keep pests down

That's how the owners of shooting estates see themselves: tragic victims of marauding flocks of golden eagles. It's bullshit and it's bullshit for a lot of farm use too.

There is of course one good argument for unrestricted access to guns by the upper class:

Upper Class Twit of the Year finale

Subject: RE: BS: Stop Gun Crime. Leaflet WH Smiths.
From: GUEST,sturgeon
Date: 02 Dec 12 - 01:01 PM

'As for guns in UK, we do not have any in our houses. Only people such as farmers who need to keep pests down, and those who belong to shooting clubs at competition level have firearms, and they are very very strictly monitored and licensed.'

Tell that to the folks in Manchester or Liverpool or Birmingham or Nottingham or certain parts of London or Belfast or Dublin where toting a gun is an essential part of gang culture.

Eliza, you know absolutely fuck all about this.

Subject: RE: BS: Stop Gun Crime. Leaflet WH Smiths.
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 02 Dec 12 - 01:09 PM

Sturgeon ~~ We are talking on this thread about the behaviour and usages of respectable citizens in relation to permitted weaponry, not the criminal fringe. Your post is peculiarly ill-advised in this context: we all know that many people break the law, and in some enclaves many do so: but that is not particularly relevant here.

And, addressing any lady, Eliza or any other, would it not have been rather more seemly to have suggested that she knew 'nothing' [iyo] about the subject, rather than employing the coarse & disrespectful locution you saw fit to use? For shame!
~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Stop Gun Crime. Leaflet WH Smiths.
From: Megan L
Date: 02 Dec 12 - 01:11 PM

Guest sturgeon apart from showing yourself to be ignorant and obnoxious you see to know very little about the majority of people in Britain. If you live in a place where people are Toting or openly carrying firearms then you should move to another part of town.

Just dont take your guns with you the rest of us dont live like that.

Subject: RE: BS: Stop Gun Crime. Leaflet WH Smiths.
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 02 Dec 12 - 01:23 PM

As I live (and have done for the whole of my long life) in the UK, surely I'm qualified to have an opinion of the state of affairs regarding knives and guns here? And I don't take kindly to abusive forms of address, which are unnecessary and don't add weight to anyone's argument. Michael is right, we're not talking about the criminal fraternity (about which I know more than you think, Sturgeon, as I have worked with convicted prisoners for many years and have heard everything possible, believe me!) We ARE discussing the everyday, average person in general, and I still believe that we are far, far from being a nation of fire-arm carrying thugs. God grant we always shall be.

Subject: RE: BS: Stop Gun Crime. Leaflet WH Smiths.
From: GUEST,Fred McCormick
Date: 02 Dec 12 - 02:22 PM

I've just noticed an error in my initial posting to this thread. IE., I referred to an email I'd received from something called 'Animal', when I should have said Animal Aid.

No wonder Sturgeon reared his ugly argumentative head. He must think the email came from him.

Subject: RE: BS: Stop Gun Crime. Leaflet WH Smiths.
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 02 Dec 12 - 02:48 PM

My, what a charmer this Sturgeon is. His life must be replete with love and friends.

Oh Lucky Sturgeon
How we envy him

ɷɷɷɷ

Subject: RE: BS: Stop Gun Crime. Leaflet WH Smiths.
From: GUEST,CS
Date: 02 Dec 12 - 03:26 PM

M are those mooning bums?!

I envy *you*, wish I knew how to procure such keyboard rarities!

Subject: RE: BS: Stop Gun Crime. Leaflet WH Smiths.
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 02 Dec 12 - 03:30 PM

Ah: they are actually some sort of Greek letter, CS, believe it or not, that I found on Character Viewer & the resemblance struck me; so I put it on my Favourites and use it to send that sort of message from time to time.

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Stop Gun Crime. Leaflet WH Smiths.
From: GUEST,CS
Date: 02 Dec 12 - 03:35 PM

No doubt the resemblance did strike you - just amazed I've never seen a mooning bum emoticon before!

*like*

Subject: RE: BS: Stop Gun Crime. Leaflet WH Smiths.
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 02 Dec 12 - 03:38 PM

This can be a good one sometimes too -

☠☠☠☠☠☠

Subject: RE: BS: Stop Gun Crime. Leaflet WH Smiths.
From: Jack Campin
Date: 03 Dec 12 - 07:44 AM

Somehow I suspect this guy was in the target demographic for gun magazines...

Tory council leader murders his wife and tops himself

but he was a bit over 18.