BS: Palestine welcomed into the UN fold

Subject: RE: BS: Palestine welcomed into the UN fold
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 05 Dec 12 - 03:31 AM

Ah, Jim; we do indeed grow pompous with age. You must continue to act as a check on my excesses, tho I fear I can't afford to pay you in more than thanks. Thank you for the kind recollecions, anyhow.

Best

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Palestine welcomed into the UN fold
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 05 Dec 12 - 03:13 AM

In the end the people of Gaza and the people of Israel will lose patience with their hubristic regimes

Whenever that happens in Israel, there is a peaceful change of government following a regularly held election.

In Gaza it would require the kind of process now being employed by the disaffected people of Syria, and previously by Libyans.
Far more Gazans would have to die even than in the last change of government.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestine welcomed into the UN fold
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 Dec 12 - 03:00 AM

"Who the hell is "PeterK-Fionn" anyway? Anyone in real that anyone has ever heard of?"
Tsk-tsk - don't forget the mask Mike.
Had occasion to thumb through some old Folk Reviews recently and was reminded what an entertaining writer MtheGM once was before he got pompous and took on the job of egging-on armchair zealots.
I'd stick to the latter - you seem more comfortable with that nowadays.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Palestine welcomed into the UN fold
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 04 Dec 12 - 11:52 PM

... or could it be that my prose style doesn't happen to appeal to or meet the self-indulgent criteria of your own oh-so-sensitive-and-fastidious tastes? In which case, tough-tittie, Matey. I haven't followed a still intermittently ongoing journalisitc career since the 1960s for nothing {in fact it has been quite lucrative over the years}. There has been many an editor who was quite content with my writing.

Who the hell is "PeterK-Fionn" anyway? Anyone in real that anyone has ever heard of?

Subject: RE: BS: Palestine welcomed into the UN fold
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 04 Dec 12 - 11:08 PM

Fionn, your qualifications for distinguishing good writing from bad are...?

Or for reading my mind ("thinking what I now see"), for that matter?

Or for identifying a 'mark'[?] which might or might not have been 'overstepped]?

And you have the all-fire impertinence to talk about 'waffle'.

Words fail me ~~ and they don't do that very often!

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Palestine welcomed into the UN fold
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 04 Dec 12 - 08:38 PM

Too much much, much as I'd like to deny it.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestine welcomed into the UN fold
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 04 Dec 12 - 08:37 PM

Well I could agree with much of that. Rotten regimes tend to founder on their own corruption in the end. Unless they see the light and change radically, of course. This applies as much to the bloated US as much as it applies to Israel (yes, and plenty others, just in case I'm accused of hopeful bias). In the end the people of Gaza and the people of Israel will lose patience with their hubristic regimes. Politicians are pretty good at not letting their people see reality but it will always show through in the end. There's only so long that you will put up with having your homes razed, your family slaughtered or your nights spent cowering in a bunker. Unfortunately, as with Gaddafi and Mubarak, and Assad ongoing, it comes with a horrid jolt sometimes. It's much better to talk. To put the demonisation on the back burner, scrap the testosterone and think about the people whose suffering you are perpetuating. If you don't, they will get you first. They might put a bullet up your arse (Gaddafi), tear you to pieces (Ceaușescu) or hang you upside down from a lamp-post (Mussolini). That's history, innit. It'll get you in the end.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestine welcomed into the UN fold
From: Little Hawk
Date: 04 Dec 12 - 07:58 PM

I also think, like Jack, that Israel is sewing the seeds of its own eventual destruction, due to its own extreme aggression and intransigence, but I highly doubt that the Palestinians will cause that destruction. They're not capable of doing so, no more than the Jews in the Warsaw ghetto were capable of destroying the Wehrmacht and the 3rd Reich. They can resist Israel, yes, but they certainly cannot destroy it. It is the Zionist policy itself that will cause the downfall of Israel.

And if it ever comes by nuclear attack, the nukes, in my opinion, will be Russian in origin.

In which case...we can pretty well all kiss our hopes for the future goodbye. I hope I don't live to see it.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestine welcomed into the UN fold
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 04 Dec 12 - 06:55 PM

Exactly, MtheM, you are blind to the difference between good writing and bad. I can't pretend to understand what is meant by "...the phraseology in which it (the accusation) is couched" nor in what sense the term "Holocaust card" is "intrinsically unacceptable." But behind the waffle I think you now see where you overstepped the mark.

Jack the Sailor's dismal prognosis is about right I fear.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestine welcomed into the UN fold
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 04 Dec 12 - 05:58 PM

"We" is whoever in the West you want it to be. Could be a middle man I suppose, at least to start with, though I'd prefer to keep Tony Blair out of it. It won't be easy. There is hubris on both sides, there is entrenchment on both sides, there is thoroughly misguided ideology on both sides and there is a lack of need on Israel's side to give anything. My bet is that the ground will shift against Israel in the middle east. The little nation is already isolated and it looks like Jordan, along with Turkey and Egypt, will be soon lost as a reluctant ally. It could be that the US Israel lobby, the major obstacle to peace, will fade. There have, after all, been murmurings this past week about Israel's badly mistimed settlement announcement, and the witholding of tax receipts hasn't gone down well. The west is generally spineless about Israel, and I'm not holding my breath, but there have been mutterings. We will talk to Hamas, and Hamas will realise that they have to talk with us. Hamas runs schools, hospitals and social services in Gaza. They have to get their hands dirty with the nitty-gritty of the life made difficult for their people by Israel. They do not sit around all day chanting from the Qur'an or spouting their charter, whatever fantasists like Keith like to think. Their people are suffering and their people have got limits just like everyone else. They will have to talk and we will have to talk. One day it will happen. You simply can't carry on like this until everybody's dead.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestine welcomed into the UN fold
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 04 Dec 12 - 05:38 PM

Israel, as it is, cannot last. It will be destroyed, not by us or Hamas but by internal politics and demographics and outside economic pressure.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestine welcomed into the UN fold
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 04 Dec 12 - 05:06 PM

Peter K ~~ An analysis, please, as to what you find so unacceptable in that sentence of mine which you quote back to me. Perfectly formed, so far as I can see, with a main clause, followed by a noun clause in the accusative following a preposition, modified in its turn by an adverbial clause of condition. Fault it, if you can; if not, go and stand in the corner with your hands on your head for the next 30 minutes.

The term 'the Holocaust card' is intrinsically unacceptable as a metaphor: I cannot accept it, so I cannot play it, metaphorically or in any other way. It is not the accusation I find unacceptable, but the phraseology in which it is couched. If you cannot recognise the distinction, then you should have gone to Specsavers. In any event, for all of Steve's saying, the comparison involved still seems to me valid.

I take your point about Hitler: but surely he was the one who recognised that metaphorical 'door' of antisemitism and, to maintain the image, pushed it open.

Steve ~~ still waiting for an answer as to who that 'we' may be, whom you anticipate sitting down to negotiate with Hamas.

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Palestine welcomed into the UN fold
From: beardedbruce
Date: 04 Dec 12 - 04:50 PM

I see and read the comments, and note that my posting has not been addressed.

IMO, many here will only be satisfied with a situation where the Palestinian can act out their goals to destroy Israel- I have seen nothing that indicates any less.

Israel has had the capability to eliminate the Palestinians, yet has not- Are you willing to risk a major nuclear war to find out if the Palestinians have been telling the truth about their goals? I doubt very much if the Palestinians would survive what they have stated they want.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestine welcomed into the UN fold
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 04 Dec 12 - 04:11 PM

Bruce your homeland is the USA. A Jewish theocracy, even a "democratic" one perpetuated by force is an affront to human rights. It will not stand. That is inevitable. It will go the way of Apartheid South Africa. That is the direction of the democratic and demographic trends. The sooner Israel realizes that and stops electing expansionist war mongers, the better.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestine welcomed into the UN fold
From: Little Hawk
Date: 04 Dec 12 - 04:07 PM

I realize the Arabs have never agreed to the 1948 borders, and I think they absolutely should agree to them.

Why the 1948 borders? Because those were the initial established borders OF the modern state of Israel, that's why. And almost everyone in the world does recognize those borders, including the U.N. and all the great powers. It seems like the most logical place to start, wouldn't you say?

I get the impression that you don't really want a solution...I think you just want to go on and on about how awful the Arabs (and various other people) are to the Jews. You figure that continued conflict with "anti-semites" is inevitable, and you want your "team" (Israel) to deliver the most telling blows and win the battles. You foresee nothing but more of the same. I think you're after some sort of endless emotional catharsis to make up for the accumulated pain and sorrow of the Jewish diaspora's tragic past rather than finding any kind of workable solution to the present political situation. As for Netanyahu, I think he's after considerably more than that. He's after total victory and regional domination. I very much doubt he's going to get it. If Hamas is after total victory...well...they're not going to get it either. You know, if you've got 2 sets of people (militant Jews and militant Muslims) who both imagine they are the world's #1 martyrs, and they're fighting against each other to prove it...you've got a pretty hopeless situation on your hands.

It won't change until at least one of those communities decides to stop thinking from the perspective of righteous martyrdom based on a traumatic past. I'm suggesting that the far better armed and far more dominant one of those communities take the lead in doing so...because they hold the power. He who holds the power is the one equipped to peacefully end the conflict...providing he wants it to end.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestine welcomed into the UN fold
From: beardedbruce
Date: 04 Dec 12 - 03:12 PM

Why the 1948 borders? The Arabs have never agreed to them.


The last set of borders that the Arabs did agree to were the 1923 ones, when 77% of the Mandate Palestine was prohibited to Jews, and given to the Arabs. THEY have their homeland.

Will you accept the borders of the remaining 23% of the Mandate Palestine territory as fair borders for the Jewish Homeland as specified by the treaties ending WW I?

As I have pointed out, it is the Arab nations ( and the Palestinians) who have been engaged in ethnic cleansing.

The Jewish refugees from Arab nations were settled in Israel- the Arab refugees from Israel were kept in camps and NOT settled in the West Bank by the Arabs. NOT ISRAEL:'S FAULT.

Yet there is a demand for ONLY Arab refugees to be compensated for their losses. Israel is to be punished for being a more responsible nation than the surrounding Arab ones?

Subject: RE: BS: Palestine welcomed into the UN fold
From: Little Hawk
Date: 04 Dec 12 - 02:56 PM

If they are still suffering poverty and deprivation as a result of it, BB, sure...

But my impression is that they ended up on the prosperous winning side of a series of military conflicts in that area, and are reaping the benefits of being on the winning side, the side that is heavily armed, the side that dominates the region. Why would that qualify them for "compensation" at this point?

Your basic point is valid though, in this sense...no one should be driven from his home by a political conflict and forced to flee elsewhere. We all know that. All people should be willing to live in harmony as one community, sharing cultures and traditions, and sharing political power in an equal and fair manner.

So...how do we accomplish that? It would require a genuine will to forgive the events in the past, stop attacking one another, and mend relations.

What's a good way to start?

I suggested that Israel return to its 1948 boundaries and stop extending settlements into occupied land outside those boundaries. I suggest that Israel identify itself not as a "Jewish" or a "Zionist" state, but as a democracy, period, where all religious and ethnic groups have equality from the top down. I suggest that Palestinians get a state of their own and full status in the U.N., and that they also welcome all religious and ethnic groups in equality. I suggest that everyone else in the region do that too. I suggest that all of Israel's present foes in the region recognize Israel's right to exist.

The reason I'm more concerned about Israel taking the first initiative in making such overtures is quite simple: they are presently the dominant party, militarily speaking, specially with USA backing...therefore it is they who must start the process to clear the logjam of the past, and they could start by ceasing encroachment on the lands outside their original 1948 borders.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestine welcomed into the UN fold
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 04 Dec 12 - 02:43 PM

Who else gets support from the USA to invade anyone they want to except Israel? And why? "Why" is really the most interesting part of the question. I think we'd all like to know exactly why...and how...that is accomplished.

That last one isn't so difficult. The right-wing media give the American people Israel's story. No-one gives them the Palestinians' story. You have to want that and look it up for yourself. And no politician who values his career can brief against Israel. You do that, you're toast. You have AIPAC and the lesser members of the undemocratic Israel lobby to thank for that.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestine welcomed into the UN fold
From: beardedbruce
Date: 04 Dec 12 - 02:36 PM

" Palestinians should be compensated in some way for having been displaced and robbed of much of their land and heritage since 1948."


AND teh GREATER number of Jews driven out of Arab lands 1948 - 1967, including the West Bank?


Do they get compensation?

820,000 Jews Vs 640,000 Arab Palestinians...   Waiting on the payment FROM THE ARABS.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestine welcomed into the UN fold
From: Little Hawk
Date: 04 Dec 12 - 02:31 PM

Just goes to show, Keith, there are some fanatics in all communities, aren't there? And they are the ones who cause all the trouble for the rest. I would suggest that the Israelis have problems with that too, not just Hamas...the rightwing parties in Israel are ethnic, religious, and political fanatics too...but what about the ordinary and perfectly decent people on both sides who get caught in the crossfire? And what about having land theft enshrined as a national policy? Who else in the world gets away with that, except Israel? Who else gets to build a large nuclear arsenal unofficially and with no objections from the West except Israel? Who else gets support from the USA to invade anyone they want to except Israel? And why? "Why" is really the most interesting part of the question. I think we'd all like to know exactly why...and how...that is accomplished.

Don T - Oh, well said, sir! (your last response to me) LOL! indeed. Touche! As you say, none of us here knows everything. I did think it was fairly common knowledge that the Romans scattered the Jewish nation to the 4 winds not too long after the beginning of what's now called the Common Era, but I might be wrong about that.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestine welcomed into the UN fold
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 04 Dec 12 - 02:28 PM

Don't worry about that charter, Steve. Let Keith have his cheap fodder. If Hamas wanted to slaughter all Jews and had the capacity to do it, they would not be saying it, they would be doing it. You don't have to be a psychologist to understand that Hamas's bluster is born of frustration. You just have to be a little bit brighter than Keith.

MtheM, if you don't like being accused of playing the Holocaust card, don't play it. As for your teaching career, you wouldn't be the first teacher who learnt the rules of English but not the usage. Consider this wretched attempt at a sentence: "...I shouldn't be too patronising as to figures of speech recognition towards one who was in senior posts teaching English for 30 years, if I were you." (Yes, a teacher put that one together!)

But back to serious matters. You are sadly mistaken, MtheM, to think Hitler was the monster in 1930s Europe. Anti-semitism was the monster. Polish villagers who helped Jews off the cattle trucks and ushered them towards a nice cup of tea and something to eat were not obeying orders. No-one made the good people of Vienna torment Jews as they scrubbed the pavements with toothbrushes; France did a comprehensive job of cramming its Jews on to eastbound trains while under an occupation sometimes secured by as few as 3,000 German troops. Hitler (elected to the Reichstag Keith, but appointed chancellor, with minimal democratic legitimacy) just pushed at an open door.

Keith, I appreciate you marshalling this thread for relevance, but could you explain the relevance of your reference to Zyklon B?

Subject: RE: BS: Palestine welcomed into the UN fold
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 04 Dec 12 - 02:24 PM

Steve ~~ "One fine day we will talk to Hamas."

Who, out of interest, do you mean by "we" here?

You didn't answer this bit, Steve.

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Palestine welcomed into the UN fold
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 04 Dec 12 - 02:24 PM

CBN news?

You will quote anything.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestine welcomed into the UN fold
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 04 Dec 12 - 02:13 PM

Christians in the Hamas-controlled Gaza Strip are taking a public stand against forced conversion to Islam.

In an unusual public demonstration, men and women gathered in front of the Church of Saint Porphyrius Monday to protest the abduction and forced conversion of members of their congregation.

YNet reported that the newly converted Muslims, al-Amash, a 25-year-old man, and Hiba Abu Dawoud, 31, a mother with three children, are staying with a Muslim official for "protection" from their Christian families, according to Gaza police.

Forced conversion to Islam is not a new phenomenon in Gaza, but public protests by Christians are, Labib Nabanat, coordinator of the Israeli and Palestinian Bible Societies, told CBN News.

"This is not the first time this has happened. In the past, there were cases involving women, whole families, and younger men," Nabanat said. "But there has never before been such a public protest by Christians, which means they've reach the point of terrible desperation."

Generally, the pattern is the same.

"There would be a sudden disappearance of the individual(s) for an extended period of time, with no news or no information about them," Nabanat said. "Then comes a sudden announcement that they've converted to Islam. Afterward, they may reappear with armed people around them as protection."

Subject: RE: BS: Palestine welcomed into the UN fold
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 04 Dec 12 - 02:09 PM

...and less murdering of apostates.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestine welcomed into the UN fold
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 04 Dec 12 - 02:04 PM

Perhaps the underlying problem for Israel is that Islam is more welcoming to converts.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestine welcomed into the UN fold
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 04 Dec 12 - 01:59 PM

No artillery, no air force, no navy, no logistical structure worth mentioning, no money, no modern industry, no organised military industrial complex.

What are they going to do? Throw chunks of broken concrete (they've plenty of that, courtesy of th IDF) and brain the Israelis one by one?

GET REAL! It takes generations to get to the level Israel already has.

Hamas will be just a nasty memory before that can happen. Maybe Gaza will be just a memory too, the way Israel is heading.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestine welcomed into the UN fold
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 04 Dec 12 - 01:55 PM

Oh Mt LH you are starting to make some sense... Again.
That rationale explains why the Palestinians and the Orthodox Jews seem to be in a baby race, with the Israeli government subsidizing the former.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestine welcomed into the UN fold
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 04 Dec 12 - 01:49 PM

Now you're repeating yourself. And it's fine to say "Hitler", by the way. Even Godwin laughed at his own non-law. Like I'm thinking of laughing at your - well, risible - notion that Hamas could ever emulate Adolf.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestine welcomed into the UN fold
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 04 Dec 12 - 01:44 PM

"One fine day we will talk to Hamas."

Who, out of interest, do you mean by "we" here?

You do somewhat mistake me, Steve. I do not suggest that Hamas could at present make good any such threat, or would even necessarily want to. But I do remind you that they have asserted a wish to extirpate and exterminate the Jews ~~ whether just those of Israel or ubiquitously has not made clear; and I have merely suggested an analogy with a previous expresser of a similar aspiration who was not taken seriously at first ~~ or indeed until it was too late. So I make the point that it does not do to be complacent in the face of such declarations of intent.

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Palestine welcomed into the UN fold
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 04 Dec 12 - 01:37 PM

Don T. - You asked "what set the Jews off to wandering again. Does anybody really know?"

I'm surprised you would have to ask that.

Why surprised LH? Is it because I don't know every aspect of every historical era, or is it because, unlike many here I'm capable of admitting that I don't know everything?

LOL :-)
Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestine welcomed into the UN fold
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 04 Dec 12 - 01:35 PM

Their ideology as I understand it is to wipe out the state of Israel. That is not the same as wanting to take over the region (Christ knows why I have to tell you this, actually). Hamas taking over the region would mean their taking over Turkey, Iran, Iraq, Egypt, Syria, Jordan, Lebanon and Saudi Arabia. Self-evidently, they are not the same thing. Michael, Hamas are neither going to take over the region nor wipe out Israel. Now I'm asserting there that they will not be doing something that they can never do. I've given you reasons why they won't do either (though I don't know why I have to, as the reasons are also self-evident). Moreover, people who persistently brand Hamas as terrorists (ignoring Israel's undeniable state terrorism, of course), and say they can't be talked to, are scaremongering demonisers. One fine day we will talk to Hamas. Put something meaningful on the table. No more sham negotiations predicated on divide and rule. Just watch those rockets stop.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestine welcomed into the UN fold
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 04 Dec 12 - 01:06 PM

Looking again at your last post, Steve: you really are a bit confused, me old dear.

First of all we have

"What evidence have you got that Hamas wish to take over the region?"

then

"Do you really think that the people of Gaza are going to stand by while they get the shite bombed out of them as Hamas pursue relentlessly their ideology"

Now, what 'ideology' would that be in your 2nd quote, if not the one you deny they have in the first quote?

Hmmmm?

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Palestine welcomed into the UN fold
From: Little Hawk
Date: 04 Dec 12 - 12:58 PM

Every person who is born on a piece of land has the right to live there in equality with other people, regardless of his or her ethnic background. That's just a natural fact of life.

But people who emigrate TO a distant piece of land with the intention of establishing a new political state there, a state identified as belonging officially to their own ethnicity (as opposed to the other ethnic groups already living there), and who then attempt to expand their conquest into the neighbouring lands, further displacing the local inhabitants, do not have any moral right to do so.

Should they succeed, however, their children who are born upon that land do have the right to live there...just as a natural fact of life. What I'm saying is: the children are not responsible for the misdeeds of their forefathers.

Therefore, though I think that the original Zionist act of creating the modern state of Israel was morally wrong and was unjustifiable by any kind of standard...I do recognize that the many Israelis who have grown up in that state since DO have the right to continue living there in peace. They just don't have the right to keep on grabbing and settling on MORE land outside the original established (1948) borders of the state of Israel. They should return the occupied lands. The Palestinians and other Muslims (and Christians) in the area should officially recognize Israel's right to exist. Palestinians should be compensated in some way for having been displaced and robbed of much of their land and heritage since 1948.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestine welcomed into the UN fold
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 04 Dec 12 - 12:48 PM

No you haven't, Steve. You are just "vigorously asserting" again. Go on, commune with yourself. Enjoy.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestine welcomed into the UN fold
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 04 Dec 12 - 12:46 PM

I have justified it. Wassup with you? And if you'd listened first time I wouldn't have to repeat myself. OK, so what evidence have you got that Hamas wish to take over the region? No faction within the Arab world has ever shown the slightest inclination to do so (and please don't give me that war-on-terror-al-Qaeda crap). Do you really think that the people of Gaza are going to stand by while they get the shite bombed out of them as Hamas pursue relentlessly their ideology (which they can't anyway and never will be able to)? It is scaremongering. There is simply no scope for it. But I bet they don't think that about us.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestine welcomed into the UN fold
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 04 Dec 12 - 12:45 PM

But there is no UN Mandate, is there, Jack?, because the Arab states refused the offered partition and tried to overturn it by force of arms.

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Palestine welcomed into the UN fold
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 04 Dec 12 - 12:40 PM

"You agree that the Arabs have no right to the area, since they took it force"

I don't think that they did. The converted much of the existing population, albeit some by force. The descendants of those conquered people have the best claim to the land.

While Bruce is correct that there were SOME Jews in Palestine before the Zionist movement started resettling, the vast majority of the present Jewish population are immigrants and their descendants.

As far as "the right of conquest" BB speaks of. Israel's current leadership still has blood on its hands for the lands they took and the UN Mandate has been invalidated because only the provisions convenient to Israel have been upheld. Witness the blockade of Gaza, and the military occupation of the West Bank of the Jordan.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestine welcomed into the UN fold
From: Little Hawk
Date: 04 Dec 12 - 12:40 PM

Don T. - You asked "what set the Jews off to wandering again. Does anybody really know?"

I'm surprised you would have to ask that.

Yeah, sure people know. The Roman Empire set them off to wandering again when they crushed the various Jewish rebellions against Roman rule in the first and second centuries C.E.

The Jewish–Roman wars were a series of large-scale revolts by the Jews of Judaea Province and the Eastern Mediterranean against the Roman Empire. Some sources use the term to refer only to the First Jewish–Roman War (66–73 CE) and Bar Kokhba revolt (132–135 CE) while others include the Kitos War (115–117) as one of the Jewish–Roman wars, although this revolt started among the Jewish diaspora in Cyrenaica, and only its final stages were actually fought within Judaea Province.

The Jewish-Roman wars had an epic impact on the Jews, turning them from a major population in the Eastern Mediterranean into a scattered and persecuted minority. The events also had a major impact on Judaism, as the central worship site of Judaism, the Temple in Jerusalem, was destroyed by Titus' troops. Although the Samaritans gained some sort of autonomy in the 4th century and the Jews later succeeded in establishing the short-lived Sassanid Jewish Commonwealth in 614 CE, Jewish dominance in parts of the Southern Levant was regained only in the mid-20th century, with the founding of Israel in 1948.

Just as an aside, I find it kind of interesting that many of the classic symbols of the Roman Empire have been adopted ever since by other dominant military empires...symbols such as the Fasces (used by both Fascist Italy and the USA...see the American dime for one use of it)...the winged (or not) female Liberty figure...and the stylized Eagle (used extensively by all the Germanic peoples, Imperial Russia, and of course the USA and numerous others). A number of these empires have come down hard on the Jews at one time or another. One of them, the USA, is presently allying itself with the new Israel and is coming down hard on the Muslims instead. There have, of course, been many wars already between the Christians and the Muslims, so that's an old story.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestine welcomed into the UN fold
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 04 Dec 12 - 11:45 AM

'See above.'

I have seen above, Steve. All I can find 'above' that addresses the question is

'It is that their own people would never countenance an ideologically-driven rout of the Jews'

which is pretty well exactly what you said last time {"the rest of the Arab world would never allow them to become an imperialist regional bully"} in slightly different words. No use, when I ask you to justify an assertion, simply repeating it in a slightly louder voice. You rather remind me of a nice bit I always enjoy in John Gross's excellent history of Lit Crit, 'The Rise And Fall Of The English Man Of Letters', where he refers to F R Leavis's "faintly absurd air of having conclusively demonstrated what has merely been vigorously asserted": precisely what you have done here.

Now, once again ~~ justify the assertion that "the rest of the Arab world would never allow them to become an imperialist regional bully".
Justify it, I say again, rather than simply repeating it in slightly altered form.

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Palestine welcomed into the UN fold
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 04 Dec 12 - 11:01 AM

we do not know what sort of support might be forthcoming in the future from other segments of the international Muslim world; which might suggest that it would be foolish to discount the fact that all bets may be open.

The "international Muslim world" is incredibly fractured; there is no single burgeoning, malevolent entity as there was in Germany. You might as well go on about threats from the "international Christian world". Hamas's Achilles' heel is not even this, though. It is that their own people would never countenance an ideologically-driven rout of the Jews. It's all fantasy, Michael. Keep your feet on the ground and your head out of the clouds.

I do not consider your "undeniable fact that the rest of the Arab world would never allow them to become an imperialist regional bully" to be undeniably factual at all. What are your grounds for this assertion?

See above. And we are in danger of taking our eyes off the ball here. Look out for that nice Mr Erdogan. The EU may yet come to regret the shunning of Turkey. They have an alternative, unlike Hamas.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestine welcomed into the UN fold
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 04 Dec 12 - 10:57 AM

""I challenge you to put up any post in which I made any such suggestion, or failing that (and you WILL fail) I expect you to be man enough to admit it and apologise."


YOUR POST:


"In point of fact, every Israeli lives on Arab land which, by whatever means, was stolen from them initially."



No mention of conditions- JUST "EVERY ISRAELI"""

So who was living there before the exodus Buce. You wanted to delve into history.

And, you numbskull, point to the bit where I said that they should be removed as you claimed.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestine welcomed into the UN fold
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 04 Dec 12 - 10:28 AM

"you must be exceptionally senior indeed by now)"
.,,.,.
I am actually long retired, Steve; as to "exceptionally senior", I am 80, so I suppose senior enough!

You commented on the truculent tone of one of my posts a bit back. I rejoin in kind that I think your last was perhaps a bit more hostile than entirely warranted.

I have already acknowledged that the potential of Hamas to cause the sort of harm suggested is not great; but you have not taken on board my points: that the same appeared to be true of that poor scribbling convict in Landsberg Prison in 1924, allied with the fact that we do not know what sort of support might be forthcoming in the future from other segments of the international Muslim world; which might suggest that it would be foolish to discount the fact that all bets may be open.

I do not consider your "undeniable fact that the rest of the Arab world would never allow them to become an imperialist regional bully" to be undeniably factual at all. What are your grounds for this assertion? I should think the opposite would be the greater likelihood, if circumstances should so conduce.

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Palestine welcomed into the UN fold
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 Dec 12 - 10:23 AM

"WHICH NATIONS DO YOU SEE PERFORMING ETHNIC CLEANSING???"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casualties_of_the_Gaza_War

Er - let me see now - one, two, three, four......
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Palestine welcomed into the UN fold
From: beardedbruce
Date: 04 Dec 12 - 10:02 AM

"That is not ethnic cleansing. It is redress of grievance.'


What was ethnic cleansing was the driving out of Jews from Arab lands, INCLUDING the West Bank.

Have you looked at the p[opulation figures for 1900, 1920, 1947, qnd now?


WHICH NATIONS DO YOU SEE PERFORMING ETHNIC CLEANSING???

Subject: RE: BS: Palestine welcomed into the UN fold
From: beardedbruce
Date: 04 Dec 12 - 09:58 AM

"I challenge you to put up any post in which I made any such suggestion, or failing that (and you WILL fail) I expect you to be man enough to admit it and apologise."


YOUR POST:


"In point of fact, every Israeli lives on Arab land which, by whatever means, was stolen from them initially."



No mention of conditions- JUST "EVERY ISRAELI"


I expect the apology from you immediately.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestine welcomed into the UN fold
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 04 Dec 12 - 09:57 AM

""As for genocide and ethnic cleansing, take a look at the populations of Jews, others, and Moslims in the region circa 1900, 1920, 1948, and now- and then tell me whether it is Israel or the Arab nations who have been performing such.""

Diving into ancient history can be dodgy.

Who do you suppose was living in that land when Joshua brought the whole hebrew nation over its border?

Was their permission sought, or were they just swept aside?

Of course, by Jesus' time (if he existed in fact) Arabs and Jews were living side by side in comparative harmony.

Ignoring the biblical bullshit, what set the jews off to wandering again. Does anybody really know?

Don T.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestine welcomed into the UN fold
From: beardedbruce
Date: 04 Dec 12 - 09:55 AM

Don

YOUR POST:
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RE: BS: Palestine welcomed into the UN fold
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T - PM
Date: 03 Dec 12 - 01:17 PM

""Yet he has never supported any claim BY Israelis on territory.""

That might possibly be because the Arabs are not illegally grabbing Israeli land, which, in the West Bank, area is exactly what the Israelis are doing to Arab land, d'ye think?

In point of fact, every Israeli lives on Arab land which, by whatever means, was stolen from them initially.

They certainly didn't send out invitations.

What planet are you posting from BB?

Don T.
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Subject: RE: BS: Palestine welcomed into the UN fold
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 04 Dec 12 - 09:51 AM

Thank you, Steve; I know a metaphor when I see one: I shouldn't be too patronising as to figures of speech recognition towards one who was in senior posts teaching English for 30 years, if I were you.

Good job you're not me then, innit. I'm confident enough in the use of English not to be cowed even by such a "senior" as yourself (and, after 30 years of it, you must be exceptionally senior indeed by now).

~~ But that they have expressed similar *aspirations and intentions* is undeniable; the previous expression of which intentions by that funny little man in Munich were not initially taken seriously either.

And you won't hear me denying it either. But, when you consider Hamas's lack of potential for expansionism, for getting the firepower to defeat the world's fourth largest army (and one in possession of nuclear weapons at that) and the undeniable fact that the rest of the Arab world would never allow them to become an imperialist regional bully, your alignment of Hamas with Hitler looks like a big mistake. You'd be a lot closer to the mark if you aligned them not with the funny little man in Munich but with the funny little old soak down our boozer who also hates Jews. He has a moustache too.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestine welcomed into the UN fold
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 04 Dec 12 - 09:50 AM

""Yet you are willing to accept the removal of Jews from Arab lands, including long-term settlements on the West Bank, and claim it is justified. Sounds like YOU are the one who favors "ethnic cleansing", as long as it is Jews that are removed... Now, who else has proposed that sort of thing?""

Once again Bruce you have both feet in your big mouth.

I challenge you to put up any post in which I made any such suggestion, or failing that (and you WILL fail) I expect you to be man enough to admit it and apologise.

What I have said, is that Israel should retire into its legal borders, and vacate the illegal settlements in the West Bank. And in that most of the world concurs. Those settlements are recognised internationally to be illegal and should not be retained.

That is not ethnic cleansing. It is redress of grievance.

Don T.