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Subject: Songs noted by Ralph Vaughan Williams 1905 From: Joe Offer Date: 01 Dec 12 - 10:31 PM Alan is working on the songs Ralph Vaughan Williams noted in King's Lynn, Norfolk, UK, in 1905. I'd crosslink them, but chances are that they should be linked to other versions of the same songs, rather than to a RVW crosslink group. Nonetheless, I think Alan's project is worthy of note, so I'd like to use this thread to crosslink the songs and to solicit information on RVW's 1905 song collection project. This Roud Link should take you to 88 entries. -Joe- |
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Subject: RE: Songs noted by Ralph Vaughan Williams 1905 From: Joe Offer Date: 01 Dec 12 - 10:54 PM Alan, what sources are you working from? |
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Subject: RE: Songs noted by Ralph Vaughan Williams 1905 From: GUEST,Alan Date: 02 Dec 12 - 01:32 PM Hello Joe. I wondered where all those Lyric Requests had gone! Thanks for doing that - very sensible. Thanks a million for the Roud Link too. Assuming that list is reliable it's just what I've been looking for to check I've got them all. (I don't yet have access to Michael Kennedy's book.) As for sources - I started with a visit to British Library to copy the MS of all unpublished songs; the 'English Book of Penguin Folk Songs'; Roy Palmer's book; some work done by Liz James from King's Lynn (she of the paper on 'The Captain's Apprentice'); a lot of enthusiasm and very little knowledge of where to look or how to get there! Thanks to some wonderful people on Mudcat I've got a long way, have learned a great deal and have a 'Favo(u)rites' list a mile long! Due to a hint from 'Mick' I'm going back over every set of words I've culled from the web to see if there is instead a set noted by RVW in Lynn as there are obviously more than I knew about. Thanks for all your help and time, Alan |
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Subject: RE: Songs noted by Ralph Vaughan Williams 1905 From: Mick Pearce (MCP) Date: 02 Dec 12 - 02:20 PM Alan See my note in the Captain Markee thread on what words there are for the songs you were asking for information for. Also have a look at the Nancy thread for some possible words for that. Mick |
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Subject: RE: Songs noted by Ralph Vaughan Williams 1905 From: Mick Pearce (MCP) Date: 02 Dec 12 - 02:23 PM PS For Alan - if you're threads aren't visible when you come to the index page, change the Age drop-down to the desired number of days to look back over and press Refresh. The index defaults to threads that have been posted to in the last day, but the Age drop-down lets you look further back. (If you become a member you can also Trace your threads which keeps a permanent link to them in your personal page). Mick |
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Subject: RE: Songs noted by Ralph Vaughan Williams 1905 From: GUEST,Alan Date: 02 Dec 12 - 03:43 PM Got it. Thanks Mick. |
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Subject: RE: Songs noted by Ralph Vaughan Williams 1905 From: GUEST,Alan Date: 04 Dec 12 - 05:30 PM Now for the STAR PRIZE! The others were just warm-ups, you see. This tune was noted in King's Lynn by RVW with no words on it at all! There are variations noted in bars 7-9 and 13-17; I'll pick just one from each - should be enough. X:1 T:Unknown C:Trad M:3/4 L1/8 K:D A2|d2 d2 d2|A2 F2 D2|B2 A2 F2|D4 A,2| D2 D2 E2|F2 G2 A2 |B2 G2 B2|A4 D2| F2 G2 A2|d4 ed|f2 e2 d2|ed B2 A2| F2 D2 D2|B3 A G2|A2 E2 F2 |D4|| Good luck people! |
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Subject: RE: Songs noted by Ralph Vaughan Williams 1905 From: Mick Pearce (MCP) Date: 04 Dec 12 - 05:51 PM Nothing immediately sprang to mind for the others, but this one reminds me of some of the versions of The Game of Cards. I'll try and post some of the tunes from Sharp when I've a bit more time. Mick |
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Subject: RE: Songs noted by Ralph Vaughan Williams 1905 From: GUEST,Alan Date: 04 Dec 12 - 06:29 PM I tried 'Game of Cards' in the mudcat search and the only find was a set of words with a metre of 11 11 11 11. The tune I typed in abc is Common Metre, or 8 6 8 6 (x2). They don't go together very well! Sorry if that's a bit foreign but I know a lot more about hymns than folk songs. Sign of a mis-spent youth - in the choir! |
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Subject: Tune Add: THE GAME OF CARDS (from Cecil Sharp) From: Mick Pearce (MCP) Date: 04 Dec 12 - 06:48 PM Here's one of the versions that Sharp collected for comparison. Mick X:1 T:The Game of Cards B:Cecil Sharp's Collection of English Folk Songs ed Karpeles Variant C S: Collected from Samuel Burman (68) at Durston, Somerset, 6 April 1908 L:1/4 M:3/4 K:D A|d c d|A (F/E/) D|G A B|E D w:As I was a-walk-ing_ one mid-sum-mer morn-ing, C|D C D|(F G) A|B A G|A2 w:It hap-pened to be_ a hot sum-mer's day, A|F G A|d2 e/e/|f e d|e d w:And who should I spy but a beau-ti-ful dam-sel (c/B/)|A F D|B A F|A E F|D2|] w:As_ she was a-walk-ing all on the high-way. |
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Subject: RE: Songs noted by Ralph Vaughan Williams 1905 From: GUEST,Alan Date: 05 Dec 12 - 03:11 AM Well done Mick!!! It's actually Short Metre (6 6 6 6 x2), my error, but it's definitely the King's Lynn tune with a west Country accent, and the words fit. I'll see if I can find it in full. Thanks a lot ~ Alan |
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Subject: RE: Songs noted by Ralph Vaughan Williams 1905 From: Nigel Paterson Date: 05 Dec 12 - 04:00 AM Hope this book might be useful: 'The Works of Ralph Vaughan Williams' by Michael Kennedy. Published by O.U.P. I have a very old copy, so no ISBN number. Not sure if it's even still in print. Very best of luck with a very worthwhile project. RVW, one of my great Music Heroes, Kind Regards, Nigel Paterson. |
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Subject: RE: Songs noted by Ralph Vaughan Williams 1905 From: Paul Davenport Date: 05 Dec 12 - 04:57 AM Our experience with other RVW material from our area is that he was very economic (time was always of the essence) and I would say that, in general he always seems to have noted sufficient to find the whole song - sufficient but no more than that. You 'Game of Cards' tune being a case in point. I was looking at one of the RIBA photos of the newly built Cecil Sharp House and noted the library with its mainly empty bookshelves. Its important to remember that RVW and his contemporaries were working with less than that. You only have to glance through the doorway of the VWML now to see how far we've come in 100 years! We have it pretty easy when undertaking Alan's type of quest. |
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Subject: RE: Songs noted by Ralph Vaughan Williams 1905 From: GUEST,Alan Date: 05 Dec 12 - 05:28 AM Thanks Nigel. I've not consulted Michael Kennedy yet as I didn't think he included much by way of song words. I know where a copy is if I need it. Thanks Paul. Presumably either a) RVW knew 'Game of Cards' so well he didn't have to note the title b) He hadn't a clue and the singer just hummed c) RVW had to catch a train to Sheringham as he did on Thursday Jan 12th and had to stop d) The landlord called 'Time' Who knows? Hi Mick, I've been unable to find text from Sam Burman. Can you help please? |
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Subject: RE: Songs noted by Ralph Vaughan Williams 1905 From: Paul Davenport Date: 05 Dec 12 - 06:09 AM Lol - None of the above Alan. He notes elsewhere that the process is so slow that time becomes an issue, especially with older people who tire more easily. His contemporary and friend, Reginald Gatty actually lists songs he didn't collect because of time constraints, effectively editing the singer's repertoire in the collecting process. :-) |
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Subject: RE: Songs noted by Ralph Vaughan Williams 1905 From: GUEST,Alan Date: 05 Dec 12 - 08:46 AM Paul, you don't happen to know where Reginald Gatty was for the week beginning Saturday January 7th 1905, do you? btw Were you anywhere near Doncaster in about 1971? (That is, as I'm sure you'll suspect, a loaded question; I'll just mention 'Green Oak' in case you think I'm a Tax Inspector.) (:-)> |
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Subject: Lyr Add: THE GAME OF CARDS (from Cecil Sharp) From: Mick Pearce (MCP) Date: 05 Dec 12 - 11:54 AM Alan Here's the full text from Samuel Burman. It's quite a short version compared to usual. (The version Sharp had from Charles Ash had 6 verses and from Mrs.Coombes had 5 verses. Two versions of The Game of All Fours at the Bodleian have 8 verses each. The Roud index has 96 entries for #232 under various titles: All Fours/Game of All Fours/Game of Cards/The Cards and other. If you want versions from Norfolk, Sam Larner did a version on Now Is The Time For Fishing and on Over The Dogger Bank; Seamus Ennis recorded a version for the BBC from Ben Baxter of Southrepps; these are the only Norfolk entries in the index). I think you're right about the Kennedy book; from the bits I saw at google, when looking for info the songs earlier, it looked as if there was only a list of those collected. I don't know if it has any info on his collecting method. There is more information on his collecting in Vaughan Williams on Music by David Manning. You can see a lot of it at google books. Mick THE GAME OF CARDS As I was a-walking one midsummer morning, It happened to be a hot summer's day, And who should I spy but a beautiful damsel As she was a-walking all on the highway. I said: My fair pretty maid, where are you going? Where are you going so soon in the morn? She said: Kind sir, I am going to Gloucester In that pleasant country where I was born. I said: My fair pretty maid, may I go with you All for to bear your sweet company? She turned herself round and gazed all on me, Saying: You may go with me, kind sir, if you please. We had not walked a mile and a half together Before we came under a shady green tree. I sat myself down and she sat herself by me And the games that we played there was one, two and three. Source: Cecil Sharp's Collection of English Folk Songs ed Karpeles. Sung by Samuel Burman (86) at Durnston, Somerset, 6 April 1908 |
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Subject: RE: Songs noted by Ralph Vaughan Williams 1905 From: Mick Pearce (MCP) Date: 05 Dec 12 - 11:57 AM I should have added that Karpeles' notes for the song say: ...Cecil Sharp erroneously attributed version C to 'The Sailor from Sea' and the tune is published as such in Sharp, Schools, No.1315". Mick |
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Subject: RE: Songs noted by Ralph Vaughan Williams 1905 From: Mick Pearce (MCP) Date: 05 Dec 12 - 12:20 PM By the way, The Game of Cards was only a suggestion for the tune. It's possible it may remind someone else of a different song. Alan. There are still some problems with your abc versions. If you want to send me a scan of the tunes, I'll happily put up the abc for them. If you do, let me know and I'll give you my email address. Mick |
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Subject: RE: Songs noted by Ralph Vaughan Williams 1905 From: GUEST,Shimrod Date: 05 Dec 12 - 01:45 PM A couple of years back my brother moved to a village near King's Lynn. Last April we visited a museum, commemorating Lynn's fishing heritage, at the north end of the town. The museum fully acknowledges the links with VW. If you're ever over that way, it's well worth a visit. |
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Subject: RE: Songs noted by Ralph Vaughan Williams 1905 From: Paul Davenport Date: 05 Dec 12 - 01:46 PM Yes Alan, I was living in Donny in 1971. Green Oak Morris was one of my better ideas. lol |
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Subject: RE: Songs noted by Ralph Vaughan Williams 1905 From: GUEST,Alan Date: 05 Dec 12 - 02:03 PM Hi Mick, The tune used by Sam Larner was so close to the KL one that I've put his 8 verse 'All Fours' to the mystery air and they fit beautifully. Sort of 'high and low, Jack and the game' really. Again, thanks for your help though. I've realised some of my errors with abc, so I'll stick at it and try to do better next time, thanks. Alan |
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Subject: Tune Add: THE IRISH GIRL From: GUEST,Alan Date: 05 Dec 12 - 03:23 PM I'm afraid I've come unstuck on another RVW-KL hidden gem. It's his 'Irish Girl'- a gorgeous tune. I've just spent some time in Old Threads and Search Engines but no set of words I've seen remotely fits what RVW noted. It may or may not help to know that RVW's tune EXACTLY fits 'Dear Lord and Father of Mankind'. I'm sure most hymn books will have that. Hoping my abc is up to it - X: 1 T: The Irish Girl L: 1/8 M: 4/4 K: G (Actually D with flat and natural C's) FG |A2 FE D2 cA |B3 A G2 B2 |A3 F D2 D2 |A,3 C#, E2 F2 |G3 E A2 D2 |D2 C#,2 A,2 FG |A3 B c2 d2 |A3 G FD C#,2 |D2 EF G2 FE|D4 Go to it chaps! |
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Subject: RE: Songs noted by Ralph Vaughan Williams 1905 From: GUEST,Alan Date: 05 Dec 12 - 04:15 PM Belay that! Belay ALL of that!! I've found that if you repeat the third line, a common enough device, it'll fit any old Common Metre words, and there's a beautiful set in Mudcat under 'Irish Girl' believe it or not. Makes a cracking song too. Sorry to do so much rambling 'on air' but it's all going so well. Alan |
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Subject: RE: Songs noted by Ralph Vaughan Williams 1905 From: Mick Pearce (MCP) Date: 05 Dec 12 - 06:13 PM Alan - You probably know this already, but just in case: There is an article by Edgar Samuel on Vaughan Williams and King's Lynn in English Dance and Song, 1970. It's reprinted in a RVW society booklet here: RVW Journal 14. The article is starts on page 22. It's based on his 1971 thesis of the same name from Uppsala U. I tried their thesis search but failed to see a copy, though I think there's a copy at VWML. Mick |
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Subject: RE: Songs noted by Ralph Vaughan Williams 1905 From: Mick Pearce (MCP) Date: 05 Dec 12 - 06:22 PM Incidentally that article has this to say about the Kennedy book: Michael Kennedy in his scholarly biography while listing all the songs collected has only this to say of the King's Lynn visit: "Two January days at King's Lynn in 1905 were magnificently productive." Mick |
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Subject: RE: Songs noted by Ralph Vaughan Williams 1905 From: GUEST,Alan Date: 05 Dec 12 - 07:03 PM Hello Mick, I don't know ANYTHING yet. Please, please keep telling me! Mind you I do know (or suspected as I haven't got the book yet) that Kennedy only lists material from KL. I also know that the two days are, presumably, Saturday 7th and Monday 9th of January 1905, producing 14 and 20 songs minimum. I also know that I walked to my local tonight whistling the new-found tune to 'Irish Girl' / 'Dear Lord and Father' and not being able to tell a soul as they wouldn't understand the thrill involved. I really appreciate your help. Alan (:-)> |
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Subject: RE: Songs noted by Ralph Vaughan Williams 1905 From: GUEST,Alan Date: 06 Dec 12 - 03:41 AM Thanks Shimrod, it's that museum, True's Yard, and the volunteers who work there, that have inspired me to make a complete collection of all tunes and words from 1905 and to put that collection in the museum for all to access easily. |
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Subject: RE: Songs noted by Ralph Vaughan Williams 1905 From: GUEST,Alan Date: 06 Dec 12 - 03:53 AM Hello Paul, I thought it might be you. I was at HM '71 - '74 doing Music & French. I was Christine's College 'son' except that as a mature student I was older than my 'mum'. I danced with (the original?) HM Morris and was involved in the Folk Club, especially on bass. etc, etc. Surname Helsdon. Good to make contact again, especially as I now have time to do outside 'the System' what I've been doing inside it for 30 years as a Music Teacher - encouraging local people to enjoy their local music. BW ~ Alan |
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