Christie's Traditional Ballad Airs d/l

Subject: Folklore: Christie's Traditional Ballad Airs d/l
From: Mick Pearce (MCP)
Date: 06 Dec 12 - 12:55 PM

I was just looking for something in one of these (I thought I had them already but didn't) and came across the two volumes for download at the University of Edinburgh: Traditional Ballad Airs, 1876.


Mick

Subject: RE: Folklore: Christie's Traditional Ballad Airs d/l
From: GUEST,Fred McCormick
Date: 07 Dec 12 - 07:20 AM

Thanks for pointing that one out. Christie's has always been a big hole in my library (as in must get round to buying a copy one day). Turns out they've got both volumes on Amazon for a combined price of around thirty quid. So you've saved me thirty quid, even allowing for the fact that I boycott lousy tax dodging/screw the workers Amazon.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Christie's Traditional Ballad Airs d/l
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 07 Dec 12 - 10:18 AM

Sorry to put a damper in, Mick and Fred, but there's a lot of dodgy stuff in Christie. He was a follower of the fabricator, Peter Buchan, and you'll find a lot of duplication of Buchan's materiasl regurgitated in there. he also appears to have added a lot of his own music in as well. There may be genuine stuff in there but it would be impossible to say what was genuine and what was Christie's and Buchan's own compositions. I know I'm the ultimate superskeptic but a lot of serious scholars will tell you the same.

If there wasn't so much dodgy stuff in there £30 would be a bargain for the bindings alone!

Subject: RE: Folklore: Christie's Traditional Ballad Airs d/l
From: Mick Pearce (MCP)
Date: 07 Dec 12 - 10:55 AM

Fair enough Steve. But when the references say have a look at something in there it's at least nice to be able to look. You can always ignore it afterwards (which I did for the one I was looking for).

Mick

Subject: RE: Folklore: Christie's Traditional Ballad Airs d/l
From: Jack Campin
Date: 07 Dec 12 - 11:13 AM

What kind of person carries on a hate campaign started aganst somebody who died more than 150 years ago and was too poor and ill to defend himself against vilification like that in his own lifetime?

The introduction to Ian Spring's edition of "Secret Songs of Silence" is an eye-opener about the motives and attitudes of Buchan's enemies.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Christie's Traditional Ballad Airs d/l
From: GUEST,Fred McCormick
Date: 07 Dec 12 - 01:13 PM

Steve, I know about the dodgy quality of Christy. Symptomatic of the times he lived in I suppose. Even so, ultimate supersceptics like you and I should still be able to access a copy.

BTW., the volumes on Amazon are both modern print-to-order editions. So I wouldn't call either of them a bargain.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Christie's Traditional Ballad Airs d/l
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Dec 12 - 01:27 PM

"He was a follower of the fabricator, Peter Buchan"
Once again a reminder Steve - Buchan's work has been disputed - often on very dubious grounds, but the case has never been proved one way or the other.
Unless you have solid evidence that allows people to reach a firm conclusion on this dispute, your definitive statement is extremely misleading
As Fred points out "symptomatic of the times he lived in, which leaves all the anthologists under the same cloud.
I tend to go along with Jack's "hate campaign" description - unless you are prepared to 'definitively' prove me wrong and solve a century and a half's mystery once and for all.
Many years ago I was given a first edition of CHristie as a birthday present, and I still regard it as one of the treasures of my collection, and not just for its beautiful binding.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Folklore: Christie's Traditional Ballad Airs d/l
From: GUEST,Guest
Date: 07 Dec 12 - 04:09 PM

I thought this might turn out to be a thread worth keeping an eye on.

So what happens? Friend Campin comes along talking about hate campaigns when, unless I have missed something, all Steve was doing was reminding people that all that glitters is not gold!

The Steve Gardham I know has not got a nasty bone in his body so I think Mr Campin should either reveal all he seems to know or leave it.

Incidentally I have tried to download the stuff on more than one computer and have so far not succeeded.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Christie's Traditional Ballad Airs d/l
From: Mick Pearce (MCP)
Date: 07 Dec 12 - 04:33 PM

Guest

I've just been back to the site and both files seem fine. (right-click, save as on my machine). The files are roughly 60Mb and 50Mb, so if you've got a slow connection it might take a while.

Mick

Subject: RE: Folklore: Christie's Traditional Ballad Airs d/l
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Dec 12 - 04:35 PM

"all Steve was doing was reminding people that all that glitters is not gold!"
He was - once again - pronouncing on something that is in contention and doing so as if it was a done deal
He's done it before, and again without conclusive evidence.
I'm always left with an uncomfortable feeling of hidden agendas when I read his somewhat conclusive conclusions
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Folklore: Christie's Traditional Ballad Airs d/l
From: Jack Campin
Date: 07 Dec 12 - 05:58 PM

Who are you, "Guest"?

And have you read Ian Spring's work?

Those files downloaded quickly on a first try for me.

I am not particularly fond of Christie's versions - they are much in the spirit of Simon Fraser. He was quite capable of making his own mistakes.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Christie's Traditional Ballad Airs d/l
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 08 Dec 12 - 10:21 AM

Jack/Jim,
Surely it doesn't hurt to warn the unwary about the vagaries of much of the material from this region in the 19th century. I thought we'd got past having to add IMHO at the end of every sentence but if not then, mudfairy, please add it to my posting. Jim already knows this but, Jack, I am not spouting off the top of my head. I have carried out extensive comparative studies on PB's work. Of course it is extremely difficult to prove forgeries at such a chronological remove. BUT I throw the ball back to you, what proof have you that the material came from oral tradition in that form? Even their staunchest supporters admit that PB and others of the same ilk interfered with the material. The ONLY thing in contention is how much they interefered. I happen to be at the opposite end of the spectrum to these supporters. I am simply a truth-seeker, and will continue with my detailed researches. I will eventually publish. Currently my belief is that PB was just the tip of the iceberg.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Christie's Traditional Ballad Airs d/l
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Dec 12 - 10:40 AM

Sorry Steve, but we really have been here before.
The Buchan affair is far from settled and probably never will be, and to give the impression that it's all done and dusted, as you do, and have done before, is neither responsible nor honest.
I've become a little tired of definitive statements aimed at those who are no longer around to defend themselves, especially when couched in such disparaging terms "He was a follower of the fabricator, Peter Buchan".
I go along with Jack's comment on Ian Spring's thoughts on the matter and I would much rather see those thoughts dismantled with rational argument rather being dismissed out-of-hand - it's what responsible scholars do.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Folklore: Christie's Traditional Ballad Airs d/l
From: GUEST,John Foxen
Date: 08 Dec 12 - 12:56 PM

Whatever the rights and wrongs it's still and interesting collection to look at. My thanks to Mick Pearce for pointing it out.

Subject: RE: Christie's Traditional Ballad Airs d/l
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 08 Dec 12 - 07:19 PM

Jim,
I have corresponded with Ian on numerous occasions. He somewhat sits on the fence on this one, and he certainly hasn't come up with anything to convince me. In fact he has provided me with some evidence for my thesis. I'm not dismissing anything 'out of hand'. My comments are backed up by extensive study comparing PB's versions with all other extant versions. What study have you done on PB's versions?

Of course these collections are interesting, particularly from my point of view.

Subject: RE: Christie's Traditional Ballad Airs d/l
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 09 Dec 12 - 10:40 AM

Jim,
By aligning yourself with Jack's OTT comments you are doing yourself no favours (IMHO).

Subject: RE: Christie's Traditional Ballad Airs d/l
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Dec 12 - 11:02 AM

"I'm not dismissing anything 'out of hand'. "
If you don't produce evidence to back up your definitive statements, that's exactly what you are doing.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Christie's Traditional Ballad Airs d/l
From: Paul Davenport
Date: 09 Dec 12 - 11:11 AM

Wow! So Christie 'invented' lots of his stuff? Why is it therefore 'dodgy'? It's neither poisonous, nor explosive. Surely a good song is good and a bad song isn't good? Why do serious scholars still subscribe to the notion of a parthenogenic origin for folk songs? People write songs, sometimes, due to the intellectual environment in which they lived, they felt the need to conceal this fact. It doesn't surely make the song less valid as a song? If Mick, who started this thread finds something of value in Christie then that's good. There's certainly a lot of Nic Jones' material in Christie which suggests that far from being dodgy, its a fruitful source for inspiration. Or am I missing something here?

Subject: RE: Christie's Traditional Ballad Airs d/l
From: GUEST,Lighter
Date: 09 Dec 12 - 11:37 AM

> Or am I missing something here?

Yes. The factual-historical question of Buchan's and Christie's reliability as recorders of what people were actually singing. No one should have to apologize for trying to establish facts. (Nor should they be criticized too harshly for doing an imperfect job of it.)

No one will be arrested or for singing or enjoying the versions printed by Buchan and Christie.

In some cases their taste might be questioned, but that too is a different,and irresolvable, issue.

Subject: RE: Christie's Traditional Ballad Airs d/l
From: Mick Pearce (MCP)
Date: 09 Dec 12 - 12:07 PM

As the OP, my reason for looking for Christie was to look up a reference in it, to do with the RVW song request elsewhere. The song titled Come Kitty Will You Marry Me was (and still is) proving elusive and I was looking at songs with will you marry me (ignoring the name) in the Roud index. Christie was one of the references (Kitty Will You Marry Me). Even if Christie was of doubtful provenance as a record of oral tradition, it wouldn't necessarily stop it being a source of tune or words that appeared elsewhere (ie later) and might be collected. (Songs have transferred from various sources into the mouths of traditional singers). In this case I wanted to see if the tune bore any relation to the RVW tune.

Christie, authentic or not, is referred to by other writers and I like to be able to see what's there when they do.

Mick

Subject: RE: Christie's Traditional Ballad Airs d/l
From: Mick Pearce (MCP)
Date: 09 Dec 12 - 12:37 PM

I've just realised that Kitty Will You Marry Me wasn't what I was looking up in Christie (that was in one of Joyce's books). It was part of the same search, but was Nathaniel Gordon (Oh widow will you marry me). Otherwise my comments are the same!

Mick

Subject: RE: Christie's Traditional Ballad Airs d/l
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 09 Dec 12 - 03:37 PM

Mick,
I apologise for distracting your thread.

Paul,
You are being very naughty here. You know very well that what Jonathan is saying is true and you know the difference between performing songs and researching genuine material from oral tradition.

Jim,
I'm very happy to continue the discussion on PB, but not on somebody else's thread. We have been through this before. I'll quite happily open another thread if you are sufficiently interested

Subject: RE: Christie's Traditional Ballad Airs d/l
From: Mick Pearce (MCP)
Date: 09 Dec 12 - 05:30 PM

Steve

No need to apologize to me (it's not like sidetracks never happen around here!). I realize that you were trying to be helpful. It happens that for my purposes Christie's authenticity wasn't an issue, but if I'd been on a different quest it might have been an important thing to be aware of.

Mick