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A suggestion - splitting off non-music
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Subject: A suggestion From: Ed Pellow Date: 31 Oct 99 - 05:56 PM Apologies if I'm going over old ground here. The available search options make it difficult to find out if this has been discussed before. Whilst I've been aware of the DT for several years, it's only recently that I've begun to read and occasionally contribute to Mudcat. Looking through current, and past threads there seem to be two fairly distinct categories - the threads that discuss folk music and the threads that 'chat' about anything that any member feels like talking about... Personally, I'm only interested in the music threads. Obviously, lots of people seem to enjoy the 'small talk' type of thread, and that's fair enough. I'm not a HTML expert, but would it be possible to split things, and have two different pages: one for folk music discussions, and one for general chat? It would certainly make things easier for me. Any thoughts? Ed
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Subject: RE: A suggestion From: Susanne (skw) Date: 31 Oct 99 - 06:08 PM Why separate them? I'm grateful for the 'BS', because I tend to go for the music threads too. But if you get into one you don't like you just go back and leave it alone. Where's the problem? Also, having two separate lists just puts an extra strain on Max, and I suspect he can do without that. - Susanne |
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Subject: RE: A suggestion From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 31 Oct 99 - 06:21 PM In fact you can't draw a line between the chat threads and the music threads, really - dig around a bit and you will see that one sort turns into each other.
You get someone saying about how something makes them feel bad or good, and someone else comes back with a song that seems to tie in with that, and someone else asks a question about the song, or talks about some variant they came across.
I'd hate to see an attempt to break it down anyway - what keeps this site sane as well as interesting is that the two sides of it balance out each other. Yin and Yang or something
It's like the chat you get between songs or tunes in a session - they might be about the music itself, they might be about the ideas suggested by the words of a song, they might be about some personal criusis, or politics, or religion, or weather... And then someone sets off another tune or song. In any case, how would you define this thread? |
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Subject: RE: A suggestion From: Áine Date: 31 Oct 99 - 07:42 PM McGrath -- Couldn't have put it any better myself! What is blues or folk music but an expression of feelings about crisis, politics, religion, love, or even weather. When I make spaghetti, I don't buy tomatoes at one store, pasta at another, herbs at another, etc. I go to a market where I can find most of what I need. That's how I feel about the 'Cat -- I can find folks here to talk with about most anything, and that helps me express myself in language, which in turn helps me express myself in music. Sorry, Ed, but I don't think half a 'Cat would be as good as the whole crazy mix! |
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Subject: RE: A suggestion From: SeanM Date: 31 Oct 99 - 08:41 PM This issue seems to come up about every two months or so, and the prevailing opinion seems to always be one of "live and let live". The basic summary of reasons given for not separating were stated nicely by McGrath. Thread creep is so prevalent, that any thread that starts out as "music only" tends to devolve into "BS", and vice versa. It's also been stated on several occasions that the social side of the 'cat is what keeps (or draws) a lot of the 'catters here. Unfortunately, we've lost some very valuable contributors due to the off-music-topic posts, but we've also gained several others. It all seems to balance out. And as has also been stated, a large number of the 'catters seem to feel uncomfortable with the idea of splitting the 'Cat into "music" and "BS" boards. In any case, feel free to do what you feel you need to do. I usually scan threads to see if they contain anything of interest to me, and it takes maybe half an hour a day to scan everything. Some people apparently read every single thread in the 'Cat, but that's not for me... and it sounds like it isn't for you either. Either way, welcome to the 'Cat, and enjoy. M |
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Subject: RE: A suggestion From: Brakn Date: 31 Oct 99 - 09:20 PM I usually look for threads that are requesting lyrics that I may be able to help with or others posting lyrics or info about songs or writers that may be of interest. I'm not really interested in "what do mudcatters have for breakfast threads etc". You just have a look and decide yourself. |
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Subject: RE: A suggestion From: Rick Fielding Date: 31 Oct 99 - 10:00 PM Naturally I like the music threads, but (and here's where Mudcat is unique) I've read some of the most articulate and well thought out opinions on a multitude of subjects here....FROM the perspective of people who rank alternative music highly in their lives. Generally the folks are more considerate and rarely do people push the "buttons" that make the more emotional catters "lose it". It happens occasionally, but even that can be fun, as a ton of folks jump in as peacemakers. As far as "personal" posts where folks share thoughts about themselves...I really like that as well. I'd infinitely rather know what makes people who share my interest in music tick, than watch TV or do tax returns. Just the fact that so many new mudcatters have joined us in the last few months would indicate that they've found something worthwhile. Rick |
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Subject: RE: A suggestion From: TheMuse Date: 31 Oct 99 - 10:24 PM Aine Couldn't agree more with your comparison to a "market" for all things. That's what Mudcat is all about. Music when you need it, friends when you need them, a laugh when you need it . . . you name it, you can probably find it here. Just "cruise" the threads and pick one! |
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Subject: RE: A suggestion From: katlaughing Date: 31 Oct 99 - 10:34 PM We have had many discussions about this. For me the bottom line was the last one I remember when Max, The Creator, spoke, saying that he likes the BS and that the Mudcat is what we make it. Most of us tout our love of diversity. Diversity seems to be a BIG part fo the Cat. If we begin to segregate we lose that and with it the unique balance which makes this the best site on the web. As has been pointed out in the past, to some of the most strident who don't like BS: you pick and choose which threads you read, simply pass by the ones that don't interest you. |
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Subject: RE: A suggestion From: lamarca Date: 31 Oct 99 - 10:47 PM One problem is that sometimes lyric or tune requests sink off the thread list without ever getting much of an answer. While I know that I can just go back to mine and "Refresh" to bring them to the top of the list again, I think a lot of folks new to Mudcat don't know that and get dropped off before enough people see their requests. They are also less likely to be members and understand or be able to use the "Trace" function, or even the "Lyr. Req:" prefix, etc. Maybe us regulars could periodically peruse the threads and "bump up" new song requests for a few days if the general flow of balderdash seems to be burying them too quickly... |
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Subject: RE: A suggestion From: katlaughing Date: 31 Oct 99 - 10:49 PM lamarca, I think there are a few of us who do that. Good idea and just plain nice...keeps 'em coming back for more. |
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Subject: RE: A suggestion From: DonMeixner Date: 31 Oct 99 - 10:53 PM Not surprisingly I'm with The Muse on this one. The Cat is my one stop shop for all my folkmusic and cultural needs (Except for Yogurt ofcourse). I can get into a discussion about instrument making with Catspaw and have it turn into a discussion on the merits of Pat Sky as a song writer. It ain't broke, lets don't fix it. Don |
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Subject: RE: A suggestion From: _gargoyle Date: 01 Nov 99 - 12:10 AM GREAT idea ED!!!!!
Watch out .... you will now get "banged" by the "gang of twelve."
Once it was as you described.... and then the "interloppers arrived."
Let MAX have his babble and profits.....let Susan and dick...continue to archieve folk tunes/lyrics. |
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Subject: RE: A suggestion From: _gargoyle Date: 01 Nov 99 - 05:49 AM Threads once extended for 3 days (at one time even 7) but as the music grew less and the gossip more it evolved into the current chat room approach. |
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Subject: RE: A suggestion From: Jeri Date: 01 Nov 99 - 07:44 AM I love the freedom of this forum, and the way people don't get complained at for going off topic - much like a face to face conversation. People start out talking about one thing and if the talk's really good, it pings off in all directions. Nobody says "I don't want us to discuss that, lets stick to the original point." (Well, they try, but it doesn't work very well.) If someone doesn't like the direction of a thread, they can wait a while, try to introduce something they want to talk about, or walk away and find a more interesting conversation. It seems all Ed wants is a way to tell which threads are likely to be about music only. He definitely did NOT say the non-music stuff should go away. The prefixes will help identify music threads, as will the titles. |
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Subject: RE: A suggestion From: Micca Date: 01 Nov 99 - 08:18 AM I agree with Don Meixner with the corollory If it aint broke don't fix it Prefix it. |
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Subject: RE: A suggestion From: MMario Date: 01 Nov 99 - 09:16 AM YOur view of the forum can still be set to 3 days or 7 days, or 3 freaking years for that matter. A discussion of this type came up in another forum I read. After MUCH discussion,back-biting, name-calling and flaming in general; the general consensus was that the majority PREFERRED getting their imfo from people they "knew" more then getting it from an anonymous source. And that meant there HAD to be off topic conversation. As was stated repeatedly -- no one was FORCING anyone to read the threads, and some of the biggest objectors had DETAILED knowledge of what was going on in the off topic threads - which meant they had to have SOME interest in reading them. And - it was pointed out, if the format of the forum was SO disturbing, they were free not to use it at all, or to go elsewhere. oddly enough, the alternative sites (there were several) are STILL almost inactive, and postings to them are primarily SPAM, neither conversation or "data". |
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Subject: RE: A suggestion From: katlaughing Date: 01 Nov 99 - 09:32 AM gg- around ninety-five postings to BS threads out of his last two hundred postings |
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Subject: RE: A suggestion From: Date: 01 Nov 99 - 09:43 AM He does post more music than most and I find his humor cute. But I think this Ed Pellow may be one of his many disguises. |
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Subject: RE: A suggestion From: catspaw49 Date: 01 Nov 99 - 09:47 AM Well gee Kat, that seems very well balanced to me......Obviously the boy has a keen perception of what is important and tries to nicely balance his postings. A real "all-round" kinda' guy. Glad we have his comments well "archieved." Spaw |
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Subject: RE: A suggestion From: Rick Fielding Date: 01 Nov 99 - 10:06 AM Gee, Ed Pellow seems like a polite, articulate fellow. Let's see if Ed gets back into the discussion. I kinda like him. |
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Subject: RE: A suggestion From: Bert Date: 01 Nov 99 - 02:50 PM Re:....But I think this Ed Pellow may be one of his many disguises.... Nah, can't be, As Rick says, this Ed guy 'seems like a polite, articulate fellow' It one thing to have strong and unpopular opinions but I just wish he wouldn't keep lying about Max making a profit. |
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Subject: RE: A suggestion From: Melodeon Date: 01 Nov 99 - 03:17 PM I agree, if a thing isn't broken, don't fix it. but then it's a bit like people who complain about TV programmes, no one forces them to watch.I'm not a musician but i have come to love Mudcat for the friendly atmosphere and I would like to thank gg for the good advice he gave me on my BS thread on giving up smoking. I can't say I've noticed a gang of twelve, more like a gang of 100. Viv
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Subject: RE: A suggestion From: katlaughing Date: 01 Nov 99 - 03:21 PM Yea, Bert, we can all see that he is just rolling in it. Wasn't that a Lambourgini I heard, on Mudcat radio, revving up outside in Max's parking space? Oh, and when is he going to take the Lear jet out for a spin, again? I could meet him in Jackson Hole, if he'll give me a little "flash" money. They don't like to let you in if you can't flash a few bills at 'em, ya know? BTW, his new Rolex looked really nice in the video, too. Man....don't let the word get out, though. If the big record companies find out how well bankrolled he is running a "chat" and selling folk recordings, we'll see a massive and hostile takeover! Mum's the word! Shhhhh!!! |
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Subject: RE: A suggestion From: Melodeon Date: 01 Nov 99 - 03:54 PM Sorry, I meant to add that if you look on the "New Catters" thread you will see Ed there, so perhaps there is just a tiny bit of paranoia, but then when they're out to get you..... Viv |
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Subject: RE: A suggestion From: bseed(charleskratz) Date: 01 Nov 99 - 04:28 PM Gargoyle, we all know Genghis Khan would have outlawed BS threads (just as the Soviet Union tried to suppress Tuvan throat singing--and as the Christian missionaries to the Sandwich Islands outlawed the human body). Find another cause, my friend...or at least stand up for your principles and boycott BS threads. --seed |
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Subject: RE: A suggestion From: Ed Pellow Date: 01 Nov 99 - 04:41 PM Rick, Thanks for the compliment - politeness and articulateness, (what an ugly word) are virtues that I'm more than pleased to be associated with. Comes from being English ;-) As far as the thought that I'm 'gargoyle' or 'gg' in disguise is concerned - I'm not. I'm Ed. Thanks to everyone who has replied here. Obviously the idea of spliting the messages is not well favoured. Whilst I don't agree with many of the reasons put forward, on reflection, I'm inclined to agree. After due consideration, I realise that, if the threads were split, many newcomers might just join the 'BS' thread and the place would hence lose (what I assume to be) the guiding principle of being a place for 'folkies' to talk. Besides, what am I doing now except contributing to a non music thread... What I would say, however, is that there needs to be a better guide for new users to understand how things work here. A prominently placed link on the main page detailing 'help for new users' could well help to dismiss some of the confusion I've certainly felt. Explanations of prefixes could be explained, details of how to track threads or search old threads, information on putting HTML code into messages and so on. Recently I replied to a message from 'Neil' who wanted some chords for Nic Jones's Drowned Lovers. I supplied these. There was no reply from him. Maybe he just took the chords and left. He may well never have seen them... All the best Ed |
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Subject: RE: A suggestion From: Bert Date: 01 Nov 99 - 05:49 PM Ed, I was supposed to do an FAQ page for Max but haven't got it done yet. Sorry about that. Bert. |
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Subject: RE: A suggestion From: Art Thieme Date: 01 Nov 99 - 05:53 PM Songs are nothing but structured B.S. that happens to have a tune. Art |
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Subject: RE: A suggestion From: Áine Date: 01 Nov 99 - 05:55 PM Go Art!! May we quote you?? :-) -- Áine |
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Subject: RE: A suggestion From: Áine Date: 01 Nov 99 - 06:01 PM P.S. Everybody -- I just busted gargoyle over on the BS: Free Photo Site thread (ha! ha!). I told him I was going to tell Mama on him, so there! -- Áine |
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Subject: RE: A suggestion From: Ed Pellow Date: 01 Nov 99 - 06:55 PM I'm trying to be open minded here... Bert: if you 'can't be bothered' to put together a decent FAQ, maybe you should give the responsibility to someone who can. I've tried to justify to myself that the BS messages may have a place here. Messages such as: "Songs are nothing but structured B.S. that happens to have a tune." or I just busted gargoyle over on the BS: Free Photo Site thread (ha! ha!). I told him I was going to tell Mama on him, so there! begin to make me (once more) wonder... Ed
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Subject: RE: A suggestion From: katlaughing Date: 01 Nov 99 - 07:05 PM Wow! Ed, before you start assuming things! Bert does everything on here as a volunteer. He does it when he has time. If you can't figure something out there are PLENTY of us who are willing to lend a helping hand. All you have to do is ask. Art Thieme who mentioned the music is BS, is one of the most highly esteemed folksingers on here and very well-known and beloved, as well as being the best folksinger who ever came out of Chicago, IMO. He is unable to perform anymore but that does not lessen his vast knowledge and his sometimes ascerbic wit. Lighten up and learn a bit more before you cast aspersions. As far as what Aine posted about gargoyle; he has alienated most of the good people on here through his own words and hateful actions. The best policy is what Big Mick has decided to do, after much careful thought: totally ignore him. Once again, if you don't like the BS, don't go there! YOU HAVE CONTROL! |
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Subject: RE: A suggestion From: Bert Date: 01 Nov 99 - 07:09 PM Bert: if you 'can't be bothered' to put together a decent FAQ, maybe you should give the responsibility to someone who can. Way to go Ed. The job's all yours. Moose Turd Pie. Bert. |
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Subject: RE: A suggestion From: katlaughing Date: 01 Nov 99 - 07:21 PM Also, Aine has a right, like any of us, to point out hypocrisy, when she sees it! BTW, Ed, THIS is a non-profit. That means even Max makes nothing for creating, building, and maintianing this site. Everything on it, including Dick and Susan's incredible database are labours of love and volunteer time! |
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Subject: RE: A suggestion From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 01 Nov 99 - 07:33 PM It's getting a bit heated here - perhaps it's time we had another song
Ballade
From time to time, when I don't feel so bright
Once I was sure that I knew wrong from right,
A strain of music floating through the night, a half-remembered tune from far away with memories of fire and hope and light before this world turned mean and cold and grey, and those bright hopes in shattered pieces lay sold by a huckster to a greedy throng. I hear the music of a brighter day - perhaps it's time we had another song.
Prince, there's one tune you always seem to play
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Subject: RE: A suggestion From: Ed Pellow Date: 01 Nov 99 - 07:53 PM Kat, As a result of the very nature of this type of interaction, one assumes things. I apologise if I've upset anyone. I've certainly had no intention of doing so. Ten messages ago, I was a 'decent articulate guy' It seems I'm not anymore.. As far as what Bert says - I'd be more than happy to try and co-ordinate some sort of FAQ. I assume that 'moose turd pie' isn't the greatest of compliments... There would, of course, be no purpose in doing this unless the owners of this site agreed. Who would I email? Assuming that agreement, I'd be more than happy to put together some instuctions for beginners to the Mudcat. Regarding 'Art Thieme' I've no idea who he/she is. However I would suggest that the idea that: "Songs are nothing but structured B.S. that happens to have a tune" is somewhat naive. Ed ed@pellow.co.uk
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Subject: RE: A suggestion From: Bert Date: 01 Nov 99 - 08:11 PM Ed, You didn't upset us, we're just having fun with you. You're still a nice guy. In fact you sound like one of us, you can give as good as you get and are prepared to muck in and help. The reference to Moose Turd Pie is from Utah Phillip's Album "Good Though" It's a story of someone who complained about the cook and found out that the rule was "If you complained - the job was yours". In spite of the BS we try to get references in to folky themes whenever we can. I would really appreciate any help that you could give. Lil Neo started a list which I emailed to Max. You would be most welcome to add to it. Just send me a personal message and I'll see that Max gets it, or post it to a thread or send it to Max. One of Art's jobs is our resident comedian and punster extraudinaire. He gets fed up with the BS threads at times and has never lived down his attempt to make fun of us by starting a BS thread about condoms. He wasn't being naive, he was being silly. Welcome to our community and thanks for being a really good sport. Bert. |
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Subject: RE: A suggestion From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 01 Nov 99 - 08:14 PM BS means people talking to each other, telling stories, making observations about their lives, telling jokes, saying how they feel. If songs aren't all those things, what are they? But I'm all for a serious minded fella taking on the task of writing up some FAQs, and keeping them up to date. Mind yoiu whatever they say, I know there are bound to be some BS threads coming out of them arguing forever about whether they are right or not.
There are four and 20 ways of composing tribal lays
(That's Rudyard Kipling, not me. Though I agree with it all the way down the line.) Kevin |
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Subject: RE: A suggestion From: katlaughing Date: 01 Nov 99 - 08:27 PM Dear Ed, There are quite a few people on here who are longtime folksingers and well-known performers, who are nowhere near as naive as you might think. All I am saying is observe and listen, find out who someone is and read many of their posts before judging them by one posting. I can assure you there is nothing naive about Art. If you want to learn something, he is one of the first people on here, along with Sandy Paton and a few others, to go to. His knowledge is vast and willingness to share hearfelt and constant. He has a voice I could and do listen to for hours and was superb on traditional folk instruments. If you want to judge him for real, check out his new cd, "The Older I Get, The Better I Was", a compilation of some of his recordings from the past 30 or so years. MS keeps him from performing these days. Bert, you are a gentleman! Thank YOU for all that you do for the Mudcat and for being on Mudcat Radio! kat |
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Subject: RE: A suggestion From: Áine Date: 01 Nov 99 - 10:34 PM (NOTICE -- PLEASE READ THE FOLLOWING THUSLY -- INSERT FOREFINGER AND MIDDLE FINGER INTO YOUR NOSTRILS AND READ ALOUD IN YOUR BEST NORTH TEXAS/CENTRAL LOUISIANA ACCENT -- BARRING THAT, PRETEND THAT YOU ARE TOMMY LEE JONES, CISSY SPACEK OR HOLLY HUNTER (OK, I know that she's from Georgia, but she has the East Texas accent nailed!!) Geez louise, y'all -- Look what happens when I go off and call my son down at college and cook supper for everybody else in the house! Lordy, lordy!! Now, Ed darlin', I was jus' funnin' with ole gg (Ed, that means 'joking with'). Note the 'ha! ha!.' I didn't mean to start a flame war (but thanks just the same there 'kat for coming to my defense!) Ever'body jus' git their panties out of the twist they're in (stick 'em in the fridge if necessary...) Translation: CHILL OUT! Ed, one of the most important things you HAVE to have around here is a sense of humor/humour ... My God, you're talking to folks who get passionate and wax poetic about GRITS for goodness sake!!! [See -- BS: Grits -- one of my favorite BS threads of the last six months ;-) ] That's one of the best things about the 'Cat -- if you take yourself too seriously, there's always somebody around to kick some sense into ya!!! But the good thing is that you usually get a big ole wet Grandma kiss right after... And as for Art and his "Songs are nothing but structured B.S. that happens to have a tune," well, be there or be square, Ed, because the man hit the bull's eye on that one. And if you don't get it, you don't get it. But, that's OK, we won't kick you out of the family just yet . . . just don't tell us that you eat anything GREEN on grits . . . Peace, Áine [P.S. -- Y'all can take yer fingers out of yer noses now!] |
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Subject: RE: A suggestion From: _gargoyle Date: 01 Nov 99 - 10:49 PM If you are going to hang around Ed....get used to the "fickelness."
First you will be a "saint" and then a "demon" depending on which way the PC wind is blowing, or what the gang of twelve has been drinking that night.
A name like "Pellow" is too close to "Pillow" - much too soft... you need to develop a "heart of stone," ..... something more along the lines of "Pillar."
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Subject: RE: A suggestion From: sophocleese Date: 01 Nov 99 - 10:53 PM There you go gargoyle, to quote Bert; "In fact you sound like one of us, you can give as good as you get and are prepared to muck in and help." Ahh opinions will always differ. That's what makes the world so special. |
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Subject: RE: A suggestion From: catspaw49 Date: 01 Nov 99 - 11:10 PM Ya know Aine, I was with you right up to the wet grandma kiss thing and I had to go take a drive with the porcelain bus......I'm doing better now, had a shot of baking soda. I think your best bet Ed would be to relax a little. You don't have to learn every detail of the place overnight. Yeah, some things would be better and eventually, they'll happen. But Max does have a lot of things going on with his real business and the improvements at the 'Cat are not the primary thing in his life. Putting out a "site guide" of sorts is in the works. And as far as segregating the threads...never happen. Don Meixner makes the point exactly. Additionally, some great music comes up in the BS threads and one of our "hottest" discussions started life as a simple request for music. Take a little time and get to know the people who inhabit the village and if you don't like us...don't stay......If you do...Welcome. Margaret Chase wrote the line for Elwood P. Dowd and I think it may be the best piece of advice I ever got. "My mother said, 'Elwood, in this life you can be oh so smart, or oh so pleasant.' For years I was smart. I recommend pleasant." Spaw |
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Subject: RE: A suggestion From: Rick Fielding Date: 01 Nov 99 - 11:43 PM Holy Cow, it's happened again! I go off to do my stupid radio show (Grit Laskin was on and he was hilarious - for a luthier), come back, watch Hercule Poirot, saunter up to the ol computer and "All hell breaks loose!" Hey Art (how ya bin by the way?) I guess bein'a folk musician with 40 years service and a shit load of albums, doesn't help a newcomer know just what kind of a girl you really are. Actually Ed, she's quite hilarious - but I have a warped sense of humour! Bert, you just won the annual "Catspaw Award" for infinite patience, when a good "slap upside the head might have been more effective. Gregory, Gregory, YOU are accusing the infamous Gang of 12 of dipping into the home-brew willy nilly? Sapristi Tabernache! Ed, if you promise to get the jokes, (and there are lots) you find no fickleness around here! Rick...still loving the "cat" with a passion |
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Subject: RE: A suggestion From: katlaughing Date: 01 Nov 99 - 11:53 PM Rick, that's the twelve disciples, right?*G* |
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Subject: RE: A suggestion From: Lonesome EJ Date: 02 Nov 99 - 12:02 AM It's really none of my bidness, but...who the heck are the "gang of 12" anyhow? And Ed, it's been my experience that this place is like most others- you get what you give. You kid, people kid back... you cry, people cry with you... treat em with respect, you get respect... act like an asshole, get treated like one. If anything, people will cut you a little more slack around here than in most other places in the real world. Your idea has some merit, and perhaps Max, Bert and their helpers will incorporate some of it. Welcome. LEJ |
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Subject: RE: A suggestion From: Saxon Date: 02 Nov 99 - 12:29 AM Hey Gargoyle I bet Annap is a member of the twelve I readall the threads and I noticed as an example the way she put grubby in his box last week. Sorry to mention your name grubby but it's the way I called it Saxon |
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Subject: RE: A suggestion From: Áine Date: 02 Nov 99 - 12:45 AM Dear 'Spaw -- I didn't mean for you to stick your fingers up THAT far!! Glad you're feeling better now, though... -- Áine |
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Subject: RE: A suggestion From: bseed(charleskratz) Date: 02 Nov 99 - 02:08 AM Hey, McGrath: I LIKE that song: what tune do you sing it to? (I think there are lots of us here who are surviving the disappointment that we never managed to slay any real dragons--some of us take a whack at an occasional gargoyle or other chimera, but we usually use Nerf sabers). By the way, anyone here a member of the gang of twelve? I've always been pretty much a loner and outsider, so I'm sure I'm not one. Maybe that would be a good BS thread: WHO ARE THE GANG OF TWELVE (and what are the benefits of membership)? --seed |
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Subject: RE: A suggestion From: KingBrilliant Date: 02 Nov 99 - 08:05 AM Well, to be honest it CAN seem a bit cliquey sometimes, and the BS CAN be a bit much at times. Sometimes, if there's no serious music threads around to strike a balance, its a bit like wading through goo. Not that I don't love the place, but I worry that it could become a place where one daren't question the established order without an asbestos suit. I don't think the 'if you don't like it then go away' approach is a great idea. Unless of course we want to be a clique? Lonesome EJ has a better and more encouraging approach (see above). Kris |
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Subject: RE: A suggestion From: katlaughing Date: 02 Nov 99 - 08:43 AM It has been said so many times: the Forum is what you make it. If you want to see more music threads, it is really quite simple....START SOME! |
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Subject: RE: A suggestion From: MMario Date: 02 Nov 99 - 08:43 AM There is of course the alternative....don't OBJECT to the BS threads and then constantly hop on them, and CONTRIBUTE to the music threads and/or start more of them if that's what you want to see. I would LOVE to contribute more music, but as I am stuck in the backwoods of ruralville - have little to no access to resources, though I am going to try to transcribe some of the Levy stuff as I find appropriate pieces for the forum. |
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Subject: RE: A suggestion From: Jeri Date: 02 Nov 99 - 08:46 AM Art Thieme's Profile on bbc's Mudcat Resources Page. One of Art's best (IMO) appearances was in What was Lee Hays really like...? HTML Stuff - how to use HTML tags in your posts. How to search for songs -READ ME! - tips on searching the DigiTrad Ed, this is not the sort of place for flaming. Gargoyle is the one person who seems to enjoy discord, first stalking individuals in threads and now whining about the results. The persecutor now portrays himself as persecuted. (I'm fairly sure that was he who posted that message about you really being him. Nobody thinks gargoyle's humor is 'cute' (or 'humor') except gargoyle.) This is the sort of place where friends disagree - sometimes vehemently - and still remain friends. If you need one reason to justify the BS, this is it. We know enough about each other so that we treat each other like friends, not like faceless things we can insult and accuse. Anywhere else on the Internet I can think of, your comments about Bert and Art would have gotten a far different response than kind explanation. |
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Subject: RE: A suggestion From: catspaw49 Date: 02 Nov 99 - 09:10 AM Kris, The statement was not meant to be offensive, just one end of the choice spectrum. Nothing wrong with that......and I too agree that Leej's point is fine. And change goes on here all the time. We have a lot of new folks showing up who seem to like the joint and like Rick, I hate cliques and I don't really see the like of that here. Yes, just as in life, certain people become closer than others......but around here, most feel free to respond to anyone, anyway, anytime...and that's healthy. We go through the music/BS thing a lot which shows that we do have concerns and as long as we are discussing it, I don't believe there will be a problem. Don Meixner made the best comment in this thread. Mudcat IS a sort of "One Stop Shopping" and sometimes the sale merchandise changes......this day, there's special on lettuce and later there's a special on beans. Personally, I wouldn't be caught dead with Don unless we were discussing music, instruments, politics, kids, philosophy, adversity, cooking, tiples, acoustic amplification, religion, humor, woodworking, or Pat Sky.........Outside of that kinda' stuff, he's really a drag. Spaw |
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Subject: RE: A suggestion From: Jack (Who is called Jack) Date: 02 Nov 99 - 09:47 AM What we're really talking about here is converting from an unmoderated forum to a moderated forum. You can talk all you want about 'self regulation of the group' but in a group this large in a setting this informal that regulation at best will be loose and informal itself. The only way to get the kind of demarcation under discussion is to have it imposed by a moderator. The idea of separating into two forums has a certain face validity. However, while I have yet to see it tried I have never seen it work. Eventually the entire collective group gravitates to one area and talks about everything there. On reflection its easy to see why. Splitting only works if the division is between separate groups. If there is no clear natural division in the group, if the division is only between topics, then its like asking a group of people in one house to only talk about one thing in the kitchen and to move to the living room when they want to talk about something else. So as long as its unmoderated, a forum is like homeroom before the bell rings. The only way to get it to be like a classroom is to have a moderator. That means taking the effort that we individual 'catters exert to find threads of interest, and putting it squarely onto Max's shoulders. I don't know about anybody else, but I don't see that as a reasonable solution. Max's efforts on our behalf passed the 'above and beyond the call' level many many many moons ago. Best regards. |
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Subject: RE: A suggestion From: Rick Fielding Date: 02 Nov 99 - 12:06 PM The "Gang of Twelve". Here's my take on it, although at times I'm pretty thick, and I may have it all wrong. A while ago GG - who obviously gets very frustrated, as the "cat" continues to change from a traditional music site to a much broader entity, started calling a lot of folks "PC" (I guess he means those of liberal bent) and referring to "The Gang of Twelve" (a take on China's infamous "Gang of Four" - who, until their executions, were seen to have undue influence on Govt. policy) I wasn't around for the first two years of the Mudcat, but I've read literally every archived thread, and he's right. There was less in the way of personal information shared. The humour could be biting, cryptic and downright nasty at times. (that hasn't changed, and never will) As more new folks (with less folk-academic credentials) started discovering the site, certain postings that might have resulted in objective debate, became very emotional. Terms like "Darkies, Niggers, etc. are just plain unacceptable to some, whether historically accurate or not. Blood could get to the boiling point. Every so often a lurker would shit disturb at exactly the right time and a thread talking about the troubles in Ireland would explode into flames. Peacemakers (often those PC folks) would intervene and a lot of the time make things worse, as others (who'd only seen Ireland on a postcard) jumped in as well. In it's early days there were far fewer philosophical and New-age (sounding) threads, and I think this annoys him (and a few others) as well. Sadly, while the others discuss their annoyance with each other,(and leave room for disenting opinion) GG quite often resorts to hurtful, personal attacks...and then immediately disappears, leaving the victim a bit shell-shocked. Nine times out of ten, the next person to view the post tries to make that person feel better...and in GG's mind that certainly qualifies them for charter membership in the "Group of Twelve". I certainly feel that his reasons for being angry are legit, ('cause very few people actually LIKE change) although his blaming Max for the influx of new members is silly. His isolation is STRICTLY the result of his cruelty in expressing this anger. Rick (probably one of the gang of 12) |
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Subject: RE: A suggestion From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 02 Nov 99 - 01:56 PM BSeed, glad you like the song. I'm working on sending songs via email - so far I've got to the stage where I can send them ok, but nobody I send them to can make the email do its singy tricks.
When I've got it right I'll send it over.
The reason I put it up was because I was feeling things were getting a bit heavy with the discussion.When that happens in a session It helps sometimes to start up a song or tune, so that was what I did. (And that was what that song/ballade is about as well, which is why I picked it out of my ditty bag.)
I like Mudcat the way it is. It's balanced right - you can start an obsessive hunt for an obscure variant of a song you think nobody else has heard of, and then someone comes up with the goods.
Or you can bare your soul, and talk about how bad things are, or how good things are, and about things that have happened to make you the way you are, and you get people from the music threads turning up and saying something relevant. Or jusrt listen in and nod sagely or cynically.
You have either of these two things separate and we'd all lose, going round in circles and ending up either in obsessive hobbyism, or in hippy trippy burn-out.
Only think I'd suggest, would it be better if the AGE thing at the top of the front page was set to a default of 3 days instead of 1? I know it's not hard to change it - but I think that way some of the threads (especially the song hunting ones) would have more chance to attract the attention of someone who could give a useful reply. Kevin
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Subject: RE: A suggestion From: lamarca Date: 02 Nov 99 - 02:17 PM There's a bunch of get-togethers for folky friends here in various places on the East Coast, and there's always a bit of tension over how much socializing is done vs. how much actual singing. If we're in a place where there are several rooms, the house "rules" are usually to try to go have conversations in one room, and sing in another. This sort of works, but is socially awkward to try to rigidly maintain, especially when greeting newcomers, or wanting to exchange news with out-of-town friends. When there AREN'T separate rooms, it becomes a BIG problem - the folks who want the occasion to be a "Singing Party" get bent out of shape at friends who want to gossip, and the socializers feel straight-jacketed by the people who keep saying "Shut up and SING!" The Mudcat Forum is sortof like a one-room get together, with the same problems of dividing time between music and socializing. It's not a closed party, however - the Mudcat Home Page bills the Forum as a place to have musical questions answered. When people's questions about music get bumped off the thread list by new threads about "What Time is it Where You Are?" (to give one particularly dumb and pointless example), I think we're straying a bit too far from the advertised and clearly stated purpose of the Forum. I enjoy conversing with all the wonderful friends I've made here, and am guilty myself of contributing to discussions of What I Want to Be When I Grow Up and the like, but I would like to ask that we ALL try to be a bit more self-aware about how "loud" our casual conversations might be getting in this one-room Cafe', and whether or not they're interrupting the music... Resist the temptation to start a new thread on "The Weird Dream I Had Last Night" or "My Trip to the Dentist", especially if there are more musically-related requests and discussions going on, or, worse yet, going unanswered. If we all look at this as a large party with multiple conversations going on at once, and try not to interrupt too often or too loudly with new, off-topic subjects, I think some of the griping will subside! |
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Subject: RE: A suggestion From: Bert Date: 02 Nov 99 - 02:35 PM The thing is that here they don't "interrupt" the singing. You can choose which threads you want to read and ignore the others. You can even choose to trace those threads which interest you. The topics are too intertwined to allow any meaningful separation. The Gang of regular users is much larger than 12. It actually runs into the hundreds and even includes our Gargoyle. No one is prevented from posting, and everyone is equally important, if anyone feels left out of the gang all they have to do is post some messages. Bert. |
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Subject: RE: A suggestion From: MMario Date: 02 Nov 99 - 02:47 PM ?? Since ALL the threads for the last 24 hours show as a default and the form can be set for 3 days or a week or three years, how can one say a thread is being "bumped"? |
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Subject: RE: A suggestion From: lamarca Date: 02 Nov 99 - 02:53 PM Yes, Bert - they do "interrupt" by adding to the sheer number of threads to scan. Say you are a first time user directed to the Forum from the home page. You call up the "Create a Thread" link and look at the prefix list and scratch your head, because they seem redundant and/or inexplicable. So you call your thread "Song about Cheese", and post your first request. The next day, you get back on, the Forum comes up - and you can't see "Song about Cheese" ANYWHERE! There are 30-40 other threads listed with the 1 Day default, but your request is nowhere to be found. What do you do now? (Remember, this is the first time you've used the Forum...) I'm just using this as a worst-case example. As a fairly regular user, I know how to filter the threads, or search for words in the Subject line, or Trace threads I'm interested in or reset the time default, etc. But for newer users, this is not obvious. The greater the number of threads you have to scan for something interesting, the harder it is. While we have been discussing this, someone has started a thread about "The Simpsons". I don't have to read it - but it's yet another line I have to search past to find something else in the long list of threads. I wish that folks would try just a BIT harder to keep talking about music, that's all. |
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Subject: RE: A suggestion From: Fortunato Date: 02 Nov 99 - 03:11 PM As an East Coast "shut up and sing type" I still vote to leave the Mudcat as is. It's wide road that so many strangely different and lovely people can walk together. It's called cross-fertilization. If you don't want be fertilized don't get too close! |
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Subject: RE: A suggestion From: Bert Date: 02 Nov 99 - 03:19 PM But this is not a moderated forum. We don't want to tell people what they may or may not discuss. The choice of topic headings was derived from the way the forum is being used. The threads subjects themselves reflect the way that Mudcatters are using the forum. There was a time a while ago when there was a proliferation of gaelic threads which are not necessarily of general interest. That's what Mudcatters wanted at that time, it didn't interest me that much and I ignored most of them. I didn't feel a need to complain about theads were of interest to others. The forum has been increasing in size from day 1 so that now, even the music only threads are more than a screenful. One of the reasons for the increase is that people like it the way it is. So use the scroll button and ignore The Simpsons if you don't think that they are part of modern folklore. Bert. |
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Subject: RE: A suggestion From: katlaughing Date: 02 Nov 99 - 06:17 PM Well put, Bert. I just spent twenty minutes refreshing the threads back three days only and refreshed nine lyric requests that had NO RESPONSES. There were more I didn't get to. For those who want to see more music theads, at least see if you can help out the requesters, whose threads fell by the wayside. You can refresh them as easily as I and you might even just make someone's day. If you don't participate in them or start your own, then kwitcherbytchin'! |
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Subject: RE: A suggestion From: lamarca Date: 02 Nov 99 - 06:53 PM I refreshed a few more, again with no responses. I've noticed that some poor souls just start a new thread with the same title if their original one has disappeared off the list. And I don't want to hear any whining from people who can't find their conversational threads in the flood of awful requests for lyrics - which would only prove the point I made above about throwing too many threads on the list being the equivalent of drowning out other conversations. Bert, I don't want to censor or complain (too much) about threads in which I'm not personally interested, but as you can see from the fairly long list of refreshes, some basic requests for lyrics ARE falling by the wayside. I guess it's a matter of why the Forum exists. It has evolved into an on-line community, and there's now a critical mass of people who like it that way (myself included). I don't want it to change back; I just think that the members of the community need to be a little more sensitive about the ORIGINAL stated purpose of the Forum as well, to provide help in finding tunes and lyrics. cringing behind my asbestos shield, waiting for the wrath of KAT... Mary |
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Subject: RE: A suggestion From: Rick Fielding Date: 02 Nov 99 - 07:05 PM Jeez, now why did you have to go and mention that "Simpsons thread"? Naturally I would have ignored it,...but now I'm thinking, "Maybe it's about some young girl who plays blues saxophone lookin' for some encouragement". I'll go and find it now...will I be disappointed? Rick |
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Subject: RE: A suggestion From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 02 Nov 99 - 08:31 PM I still haven't worked out how to refresh a thread, except by adding a contribution.How do you do it? Which would be thenkind oif useful thing you's get in a well organised FAQ. On the other hand, now I've asked the question, someone is bound to tell me, either in this thread, or in a prsonal message. And if they don't, I'll make a new thread asking these kind of questions. And on the whole, that's the way I like it. I can never understand manuals and suchlike, I learn bit by bit as the need and opportunity arises.
On my browser there's a little bit at the top where it says "Edit", and if I click that there's a menu including an item "Find on this page". And using that it's the easiest thing in the word to find any lost song thread. and if I can work that out at my advanced age, and general level of technological expertise, so can most people, I reckon.
Now I'm off to look up this Simpsons thread - now in Homer you see a man with about the same technical expertise as me... |
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Subject: RE: A suggestion From: Rick Fielding Date: 02 Nov 99 - 08:32 PM Been to "The Simpsons". No comment. Mary, HOW "REFRESHING!" Now that's direct action mudcatters. Rick |
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Subject: RE: A suggestion From: catspaw49 Date: 02 Nov 99 - 09:03 PM I tend to read a lot of threads, both music and BS...but I may not have anything meaningful to post to a music thread. Sometimes I post to them and get no response, or totally ignored as a non-scholar type. Well, that's life. No big deal. I have a decent knowledge of and passion for folk instruments and acoustics, am a pretty fair woodworker and so a fair to middlin' builder. I post to a lot of instrument related threads. And of course, yes, I post to a load of BS (or I post a load of BS)---but far from all.....like the Simpson's thing...didn't interest me, sorry. Point is, if you ain't got time to read them all or have trouble finding them...TRACE them. Please refer to Don Meixner's post (and later mine)....Its a one stop shopping kinda' place. There is no doubt that the 'Cat has changed over the past year and yes, I admit to being a part of that change. A group came on about the same time that brought out some of the others into some new types of discussions and humor that wasn't really too prevalent before then. Some really got into it like Seed....others didn't. I guess the only thing that gets me about the "more music" argument is the vague feeling that we are somehow inferior to the true scholars and researchers...less serious about the whole thing. That's crap nad demonstrably untrue. But maybe it is just a vague feeling of mine with no substance behind it. Lord knows I'm a mental case........ Max has said he likes the BS and doesn't see a problem. Ya know, if I were Max and I had the passion for blues and the knowledge of it that he has, I might be complaining about the lack of "Blues" threads.......its his place and it says "Folk AND Blues." So speak up there lad.....Demand more blues.(:<)}} Spaw |
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Subject: RE: A suggestion From: _gargoyle Date: 02 Nov 99 - 09:22 PM Rick, a very insightful, articulate synopsis. (It will be used in the conclusion of Social Ecology and the Internet - Small Group Analysis in an International Envirnonment
Since it appears that the catter-wailing and weed-wacking WILL continue - and neither will consume the other - A Modest Proposal:
Set the time for "Music Threads" and "Lyric Requests" to 3-Days..... leave the BBS stuff at one.
Not EVERYONE (except for a dozen or so) check in multiple times a day to check gossip. With the "old settings" a person could "drop in" when the time allowed....and help out when they new a source/answer. |
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Subject: RE: A suggestion From: Roger in Baltimore Date: 02 Nov 99 - 09:59 PM Mc Grath of Harlow, You have the general idea about refreshing a thread. So many just add a new post that says "Refresh" to keep it on the top. I had a recent request that went unmet, probably because it was not material to be found on recorded media or in a book. I posted on it 8 times to keep it alive for about 9 days. Yes, I am a veteran, so I know how. I for one am willing to take the effort as both Lamarca and I have done before and "refresh" little orphan requests before they sink below the 24 hour line. Watch out, here comes the peacemaker part! There will be no peace made on this issue. I don't believe the separate threads idea is viable, because people are not divided along those lines. Max has been sensitive to this issue. He encouraged the label BS for threads that were not going to be about music. Most people seem to stick to that idea. Helps the music folks just glide by those threads. I have made my suggestion to bump music threads up. I can't recall if anyone mentioned this time that music threads often go quite quickly, two or three posts and the issue has been satisfied and the thread dies. BS, of course, can go on forever. So, the BS hangs around longer and seems to dominate in quantity of threads when it truly only dominates in number of postings. My guess is that Ed has moved on and had enough of this BS. Roger in Baltimore
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Subject: RE: A suggestion From: MMario Date: 02 Nov 99 - 09:59 PM What prevents anyone from doing so now? I am *very* confused! |
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Subject: RE: A suggestion From: catspaw49 Date: 02 Nov 99 - 10:11 PM Hell Mario, you're always confused!!! You couldn't understand that poor little admin secretary who lost her computer in a power failure and didn't see why she couldn't see it or get any power to it. It was perfectly obvious to the rest of us, but no, it "confused" you...and proved you an insensitive big lout as well. You haven't even named Cleigh's little Sis yet. Get a grip man!!! Use your head and your heart more you miserable oaf. Can't you see that screwing around and making things more complex than needed is the "American Way?" Are you or have you ever been a member or supporter of the Communist party or any organization acting as a front for or receiving funds from the Communist party? I mean, I have...I was just wondering about you? In any case, do you want to join up with the Gang of 12? Spaw |
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Subject: RE: A suggestion From: catspaw49 Date: 02 Nov 99 - 10:15 PM Oh sorry...you're already a member. Didn't see your name at first....you're number 83 on the "Gang of 12" Official membership roster. Again, my apologies. Spaw - Prostetnic Director, Gang of 12 |
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Subject: RE: A suggestion From: _gargoyle Date: 02 Nov 99 - 10:21 PM Spaw....back off on the medication...I don't recognize you.
Ed - I agree - Max's adoption of the "BS" has helped a lot....I am less "manic" (except for six week cycles of the full/dark moon)
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Subject: RE: A suggestion From: MMario Date: 02 Nov 99 - 10:26 PM 'Spaw - you have made things so much clearer now..... |
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Subject: RE: A suggestion From: katlaughing Date: 02 Nov 99 - 10:53 PM Awright, Flamingo Flora, no Wrath of Kaht for you! *BG* Mission accomplished! Keep up the good work. |
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Subject: RE: A suggestion From: lamarca Date: 02 Nov 99 - 10:58 PM Having left my computer at work in a bad temper, come home, practiced songs with my sweetie for an hour or so, eaten a nice dinner and finished reading my mystery novel, I'm ready to come back and offer apologies for my latest attack of grumpiness. Folks, I LIKE BS'ing with y'all here. I also like trying to answer music trivia questions like "Name That Child Ballad in 2 lines" or "Who played the kazoosaphone on Emil Nitrate's 1937 78rpm of Irish Rebel Yell?" Can I be part of the Gang of 33 1/3? Huh? Huh? Pleeeze?? |
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Subject: RE: A suggestion From: catspaw49 Date: 02 Nov 99 - 11:12 PM Aw markie darlin', you're already a member. You were gone for awhile, so your membership number is 136, but you'll be getting your Secret Decoder ring real soon in the mail. Spaw - Prostetnic Director, Gang of 12 |
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Subject: RE: A suggestion From: Rick Fielding Date: 03 Nov 99 - 12:29 AM Mary no, no, don't back off! Grumpiness is wonderful. At least when YOU'RE grumpy, I can understand you! Sometimes when Catspaw's been using the Crazy Glue on his dulcimers for a couple of hours, and then decides to vent..I have to start looking for my Babel Fish! Besides you made some excellent points. One of the best things I've read in this thread (and which I often forget) is to "TRACE,TRACE, TRACE"! Now will I go back to "the Simpsons"? (my evil twin says: "Yes, go back, chuckle and smirk, you sarcastic bastard...but be nice, and don't SAY anything!") Rick |
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Subject: RE: A suggestion From: AKS Date: 03 Nov 99 - 03:41 AM No moderating, restricting, censorship or the like of course, but could there be a tiny-wee-likkle kind wish/hope expressed, not to post all the bs of the universe to the forum. Not that it's too difficult to slip past but that it takes masses of time to read it all through - especially if one is a non-native English reader as I am;) AKS from Joensuu, Finland, Europe |
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Subject: RE: A suggestion From: alison Date: 03 Nov 99 - 04:03 AM sorry folks.. I don't see the point in refreshing all the lyrics posts to make it look like there are more of them than there actually are.... the people who were looking may not be around to check today.... OK it refreshes them in other peoples minds and maybe someone can help...... If we can convince people to put proper names to their threads... instead of the "looking for lyrics" /"lyrics request" ones which we get...... then it doesn't matter when they come back.. be it 5 minutes or 5 months later... a search will find the thread they were after. I think that is one of the most important things to go into the FAQ. there are a lot of chatty threads....... but its "swings and roundabouts".... next week could be back to music....... if you don't like them ignore them..... if you want music ones....... create music ones. this is a great community..... there's room for everyone whatever their preference... slainte alison |
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Subject: RE: A suggestion From: KingBrilliant Date: 03 Nov 99 - 04:09 AM Lamarca - the noise thing hits the nail on the head I reckon. Mr Paw - I didn't mean that the 'if you don't like it go away' was offensive, and of course it is a legitimate point. It just rang alarm bells because it is the sort of thing that can be seductively comfortable for a group which can then find it has narrowed itself & become a clique. That is NOT an accusation levelled at Mudcat, its just something that I believe creeps easily into group behaviour & as such it could be a danger to the Mudcat. As I say, I am not saying we ARE like that - just that it is a trap to be wary of. Kris |
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Subject: RE: A suggestion From: katlaughing Date: 03 Nov 99 - 10:38 AM Since coming to the Mudcat almost a year ago, I've seen tons of new members, most of whom seem to be sticking around. I don't think, with the strong opinions and respect for one another's right to voice them, we are ever in any danger of becoming a clique; cliques remain stagnant, swampy and rarely welcoming. Around here, we usually fall all over ourselves to make sure a newbie has been fully welcomed. It seems, from what I've seen in just the past few weeks, even, that there are plenty of newbies sticking around and being quite vocal, which is GREAT! Lamarca, sorry if I seemed a bit grumpy, too, but I just can't sit by when two of my favourite people, Bert and Art, are carelessly maligned. Alison, thank you for seeing the point I was trying to make in refreshing all of those. You notice it didn't matter how many I refreshed, they quickly lost prominence and became mingled with all of the others, anyway. You hit the nail on the head, and I, too, think those are important things to put in the FAQs. Thanks, Mudders, kat |
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Subject: RE: A suggestion From: Pete peterson Date: 03 Nov 99 - 10:58 AM 1) An organization which I respect has as one of its mottoes, "If you don't want it, you can't have any!" Seems appropriate here. 2) the Peoples Republic of China moved somewhat beyond its revolutionary past. The Gang of Four were not executed, but given life in prison-- I think Chiang Ch'ing (Mao's widow) has died; not sure of the others. 3)As for our own Gang of 12, I think it has a shifting membership 4) I have re-read Gargoyle's posts on this thread and others and have found him courteous and often informative. I have seen flames in the past. I keep coming back (and have posted on this point before) to the Prisoner's Dilemma games. . . as a metaphor for life. The winning strategies in those games are (a) nice (never the first to flame) (b) respond to provocation (meet flame with flame) (c) FORGIVING (stop flaming when the Other Guy does) Sound reasonable? It does to me. |
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Subject: RE: A suggestion From: Rick Fielding Date: 03 Nov 99 - 11:18 AM Pete, thanks for pointing out the ACTUAL fate of the Gang of Four. I had a feeling that they weren't executed, but figured they probably never saw the light of day again. A year's worth of Mudcatting (I've eliminated my extra cuppa in the morning and Seinfeld re-runs in the evening) have shown me an amazingly forgiving bunch. GG's been a pussycat lately (although the claws are still sharp) but I DO appreciate his b9ths and dim.7ths. Rick |
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Subject: RE: A suggestion From: lamarca Date: 03 Nov 99 - 11:30 AM alison, I didn't refresh them to increase their numbers, but in hopes someone who knew the answers would notice them this time around - and checking back this morning, it worked! There's a number of them with new replies from people who might be able to answer the question asked. They're now comfortably mixed in with continuations of conversations about Dido O'Carina, Big Mick's well-wishers, etc., which was my goal. I'm not worried about the number of music threads vs. chat threads, just worried when requests for help slip by unanswered - which will, inevitably, happen sometimes because no-one here knows the answer. I just don't want it to happen because folks who might know the answer never see the thread. I will try to run a check every week or so and see if I can refresh some of the "orphan" threads so our collective Font of Knowledge has another stab at answering them. It's one way of getting more songs into circulation, even if the original poster misses the answer. Changing subjects, forgive my ignorance, but what is "The Prisoner's Dilemma"? |
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Subject: RE: A suggestion From: _gargoyle Date: 03 Nov 99 - 09:47 PM The terror within my heart is that the "DT" will turn-into another "AOL chat room."
There was NOTHING like the DT!!!
The emphasis once was on FOLK MUSIC! (side correlaries which helped to better post the "tradtion" such as HTML were MOST welcome.....and slings and arrows quickly were rebuffed. )
However, there has been a feeling that this is a "Gig From Hell," one inwhich you KNOW the group is performing perhaps their "all-time-best-performance" and the audience of plebians continues to gabble and garble and gossip, and complain about the "noise of the music" when the MUSIC WAS HERE FIRST!!!... the masses are unaware of that they are being presented with history, reality, tradition, lore, mystic-revelations, understanding, quandries, and QUALITY and they continue to babble.
It is WONDERFUL this week to see an up-rising of Music-Related-Threads since the "challenge" from the cackelers was issued.....however, how long before the "open gates" digress to the level of "the masses" and we digress to level of "The Star - Globe - Enquirer and Jerry Springer?"
The emphasis of the DT was "FOLK MUSIC" not petty affairs and gossip.
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Subject: RE: A suggestion From: --seed Date: 03 Nov 99 - 11:36 PM although I'm posting from home, I haven't refreshed my cookie (I was just forced to upgrade from AOL 3.0 to 4.0 so I could learn to mambo, breaking my connection to that confection).
Gargoyle, I appreciate your return to reasonable discourse, but remain puzzled by your passion over this issue. You have always been a regular poster to BS threads--this one, indeed, is well laced by your opinions and even more generously by other people discussing your opinions and postings; hell, you've even been known to show up at the pub. The membership keeps growing because this is a welcoming place, because it is full of characters, and of course because of the music--and those who so generously assist with obscure lyrics and help with musical theory and tips on instruments, and I have to recognize your great contributions in these areas.
I recognize you as my elder, at least in length of membership, and I know it must grate when I criticize you--what right have I to do so? I even recognize that when I first came to the Mudcat that I was pretty new to the internet in general, had never lurked anywhere before, had posted questions and answers in an aol photography forum where there never seemed to be much of a sense of community, probably because of the format--threads weren't headed by a chronological list of posters, just a number of responses to a post, and you navigated through it with next message or previous message or next thread or previous thread buttons. Almost all the postings were technical, related to cameras, films, chemistry, alternative techniques, etc.
So when I came to the Mudcat it was a revelation to me (I had spent some time searching for folk music sites--the closest I managed to come for a few weeks was country music sites...aaack!). So when I found this place a year and a half ago, I was delighted to find not only the music I loved but people who not only shared my love but were helpful, friendly, funny, irreverant, tolerant--despite the fact that in the first few weeks (especially) I was clumsy in my posts, particularly in proofreading them, necessitating corrections--which themselves sometimes needed correcting; my humor was often sophmoric, and I often jumped into discussions with insufficient knowledge to make meaningful contributions--and I know that I irritated the hell out of you, and may have even been responsible for unleashing your Mr. Hyde side. I became for you poster boy for thread creep and a cockroach in the Cafe (you're not the only one--I know at least one other member who regarded me as roughly equivalent to a case of the crabs, although he was almost always restrained in his expression of disapproval).
But the music is still coming in, probably in greater volume than it was in your golden age. Each day there are dozens of new music threads--requests for lyrics and music, questions about artists and instruments, announcements of concerts, instrumental and vocal techniques, and so on and on. The Digitrad is alive and well, and a whole worldwide community has grown up and is flourishing around it and the Mudcat Cafe.
--seed |
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Subject: RE: A suggestion From: Rick Fielding Date: 04 Nov 99 - 10:26 AM Seed, read your OWN posts! I thought I was self-effacing! Your contributions have been excellent. "A case of the crabs!?" Where did you come up with THAT one? Wear your "Gang of 12" badge proudly. Rick |
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Subject: RE: A suggestion From: catspaw49 Date: 04 Nov 99 - 10:47 AM Yeah Seed.....Please return the sword to the property room immediately. Besides, we're working on a pension plan, 401, profit sharing, insurance and all that for "Gang of 12" members, which now number well over a hundred. Mick and I met last night on that very subject! Even called Max and Bert during the show to give them an update. Mick is of course the VP in charge of Fertility Rites, but we haven't yet appointed a VP in charge of Fertility. Your statement does remind me that I wanted to ask you if you'd accept a VP position in charge of FertilIZER, since you are completely full of crap. As a charter member though, I've been meaning to ask you.....I'm having some trouble with the "G-12 Secret Decoder Ring" and was wondering if you could help? Spaw - Prostetnic Director, Gang of 12 |
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Subject: RE: A suggestion From: bseed(charleskratz) Date: 05 Nov 99 - 03:25 AM Rick, 'Spaw, I guess my position in the gang of 12 is Exalted Primate of the Mudcat Religion, which puts me right down there with Factotum of the Tavern Spitoon. I'll never get a really low number because I can't pick up a a potato with my cheeks or give birth to a pair of possoms*. Every now and then I undergo a regression to a past life, that of preacher's son, and I compulsively undertake things like walking the extra mile and turning the other cheek (on my face, 'Spaw), and although it has been about four decades since any of the matters of faith associated with them made any sense to me, I still hang onto such things--and other ideas like offering forgiveness seven times seven times seven times, and something like the above message to Gargoyle bursts through.
--seed
*Speaking of which, I haven't seen much of their mother, the Blessed Barbara lately--ya been awfully quiet, Santa Barbara. |
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Subject: RE: A suggestion From: catspaw49 Date: 05 Nov 99 - 06:56 AM Well this is just great. Its early AM in Southeast Ohio, I'm trying to clear my sinuses, get the kids ready for school, evacuate my bladder, and wind my watch, and NOW I'm supposed to go back and check how close you are to giving foriveness and apologizing the full 343 times? I don't think I can get to it. I'm sure you're above 300 so throw in a couple more and forget it. We'll call it close, if no cigar. But if you feel you have to do it say something more, say 63 times, let me suggest that you type "I'm sorry, we love you, please be nice." into the message block below and hit "Submit Message" 64 times which will put you one over and then you can skip the whole thing from that point on. This will allow you time to help out with the problems on the G-12 Secret Decoder Ring and in choosing which mutual funds to go with on the 401K plan. Spaw - Prostetnic Director, Gang of 12 (hundred) |
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Subject: RE: A suggestion From: Micca Date: 05 Nov 99 - 07:20 AM Ah but does our esteemed Prostetnic Director, (whose other name wouldn't be Geltz by any chance?) write the requsite Vile Vogon Poetry, and is the "Ode to a piece of green putty I found in my armpit on midsummers morning" in the DT? and if not why not ? I think we should be told!!! |
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Subject: RE: A suggestion From: catspaw49 Date: 05 Nov 99 - 07:36 AM It ain't gotta' tune and I think there would be copyright infringements which we don't need and try to avoid Micca. Maybe we ought to read a little of it to the Harry Fox Agency to get them off Max's ass. Geezis, just reading the title started to give ME a blinding headache, so maybe its a thought. Spaw |
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Subject: RE: A suggestion From: Ed Pellow Date: 05 Nov 99 - 02:30 PM Is mathmatics a reasonable approximation of the truth? Can math describe the universe? Or, are we so individual that mathametical formulae can never explain the 'freedom' we like to pretend we have. Discuss. |
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Subject: RE: A suggestion From: MMario Date: 05 Nov 99 - 02:47 PM Is this a test? I didn't study! My dog ate the textbook! Anyone got a pencil? |
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Subject: RE: A suggestion From: Bert Date: 05 Nov 99 - 03:04 PM Math is a game. You can use it to interpret whatever you like. The reasonablness of the answer will depend upon the relevance of the parameters and how closely they resemble the hairs on a possum's posterior. |
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Subject: RE: A suggestion From: Áine Date: 05 Nov 99 - 03:27 PM Bert -- Is that the parameter of thickness or the parameter of proximity?? |
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Subject: RE: A suggestion From: Bert Date: 05 Nov 99 - 04:23 PM proximity stinks! |
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Subject: RE: A suggestion From: catspaw49 Date: 05 Nov 99 - 05:06 PM Especially in relationship to a possum's ass. Spaw |
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Subject: RE: A suggestion From: Bert Date: 05 Nov 99 - 05:09 PM Well held. |
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Subject: RE: A suggestion From: Lonesome EJ Date: 05 Nov 99 - 05:48 PM Seed...what I meant was, the next time you are in Frisco please send me a case of crabs. Snow would be fine, but King would be better. Actually Seed, since I've been on the Mudcat, I have noticed a steady maturation on your part, as well as the development of a keen sense of humor. And I don't think I would be alone in saying "it's about damn time!" LEJ:>} |
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Subject: RE: A suggestion From: katlaughing Date: 05 Nov 99 - 06:11 PM
All things began in order, so shall they end, and so shall they begin again; according to the ordainer of order and mystical mathematics of the city of heaven. Sir Thomas Browne 1605-1082 Ed, you'd probably be better off starting a new thread for this discussion. Otherwise it may get lost in thread chaos, as there is no order within the confines of such things.*bg* KatSageWalker
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Subject: RE: A suggestion From: _gargoyle Date: 05 Nov 99 - 10:26 PM My dearest, most gracious, kindly, and honorable Mr. B.Seed
Yes, the vitrol once fumed brightly between us.
It was fun. It was innocent. It was repremending.
You have DEFINATELY contributed MUCH more than you have taken from the DT.
I am most sorry that you took Fong-Gouhl the wrong way....(it was meant to be a "shot-across-the-bow" a "Warning",........NOTHING is "safe in cyber-space"....ie....in the past a letter of Edger Allan Poe could lay dormant for 130 years.....today...it is "known to the world.....a day after is it sent) To rephrase a previous admonition...."Be Afraid ////// Be VERY Afraid"....
No....this is NOT a personal ATTACK!!!! You and your wife and your accounts are safe.
Nor is it gg.
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Subject: RE: A suggestion From: bseed(charleskratz) Date: 06 Nov 99 - 04:25 AM Gee, I'm glad you cleared that up, Gargoyle. I guess you cleared it up...uh, what did you say? --seed |
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Subject: RE: A suggestion From: Lonesome EJ Date: 06 Nov 99 - 05:37 PM Hell,Seed,it's an olive branch. Take it. |
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Subject: RE: A suggestion From: bseed(charleskratz) Date: 06 Nov 99 - 08:03 PM Oh, I understood that much, Leej (and Garg), and it is much appreciated and accepted...and I think I get the meaning of the caution: I do tend to let it all hang out a bit here--I have posted my address at least once, and information about my family, my work site, etc., and should be more careful. But beyond that, I would appreciate an acknowledgement that the putdown is not always appreciated as a form of humor, and that a direct approach is usually the best way to communicate something important, particularly when it's not coupled with condescension. --seed |
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