BS: Sacristan Duties

Subject: RE: BS: Sacristan Duties
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 29 Jan 13 - 06:21 AM

Yes, Nigel, and a very good way to remove stains. But it's the rigmarole afterwards with the soaking water poured reverently onto bare earth that makes me cross.
Ah, the Oxford Movement! Very High Church Anglicans, and good luck to them, but I don't subscribe to it. 'Cranky Hanky' is a good way of putting it, ChanteyLass.
Our church collects non-perishable food for the Food Bank at a nearby town. Some of us put tins etc in a big box which is taken there every week. Now instead of getting one's knickers in a twist about a holy hanky, it might be a better idea to concentrate on what are obviously poor folk with no food at all, who need emergency boxes ( a three-days' supply) I do my best, but there is obviously a great need out there for a more practical Christian effort in helping and relieving need. I imagine Jesus would agree.

Subject: RE: BS: Sacristan Duties
From: BrendanB
Date: 29 Jan 13 - 07:57 AM

Like Joe I spent some years in a seminary. Unlike Joe I have contributed far too little to the church since then. He not only expresses what is good and valuable in Catholicism he also lives it, I am going to have to look very critically at my own practice.
The business of how to wash altar cloths highlights the problem of people placing too much emphasis on the letter of the law and not enough on its spirit. It has been said that any fool can write a law but it takes a wise person to interpret it. I suspect that there are those who shrink from any real intellectual engagement with their faith and focussing on structures makes them feel that they are doing what they should without having to think or question their involvement with the really important aspects of their faith.
I don't mean to sound judgemental, I am often quick to take the easy way out. Let's be grateful for those who really do examine and live their beliefs.

Subject: RE: BS: Sacristan Duties
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 29 Jan 13 - 09:51 AM

I think it all boils down to sincerity Brendan. One can be a hypocrite and just pay lipservice and go through the motions. Or one can do things with conviction because one truly subscribes to the practice. I just feel that Jesus and His world are billions of miles away from today's 'Christian' churches. That's why at one point many many years ago I felt I should become a nun and give up absolutely everything to follow Christ. That way I would have embraced true poverty, and followed Him much more closely. Chastity wouldn't have been a problem for me, but I think I'd have stumbled over Obedience, being a 'liberated' woman. I got to know many nuns well, both Anglican and Catholic. To me, Charity is the most necessary thing especially for Western Christians. How we can 'look real poverty in the eye' without feeling horribly guilty and mean, I don't know. I'm doing my best in the field God seems to have plonked me - helping an African family and giving my husband a chance to get on a bit in life. I despise the Holy Hanky Obsession. Far more important to offer a helping hand to those who struggle, both at home and abroad.

Subject: RE: BS: Sacristan Duties
From: BrendanB
Date: 29 Jan 13 - 10:51 AM

Eliza, I agree entirely with what you say about charity. 'There are faith, hope and charity and the greatest of these is charity'. That should be the focus of what churches do and, to be fair, is the focus of many.
I am not sure however that we can question the sincerity of all those whose focus is structures and processes rather than spirit. While we can readily see what is wrong with their approach, and indeed the harm they can do, we cannot be certain that they are not as sincere in their practice as we are in ours. I don't know if I'm right but when we look back into history we see people whose behaviour appals us but who seemed to act out of belief rather than malice. The iconoclasts during the English reformation and civil war spring to mind. Joe's comments about John Paul II in an earlier post also illustrated this.
Thank you for starting such a thought-provoking (and civilised) thread!

Subject: RE: BS: Sacristan Duties
From: Joe Offer
Date: 29 Jan 13 - 04:24 PM

You'd be surprised by the majority of nuns in the United States, Eliza. "Obedience" has an entirely different meaning for them. The have taken Vatican II seriously, and they govern their communities through the principles of collegiality. Decisions are made by consensus - and for modern nuns, obedience means obedience to the consensus and common good of the community. My boss the nun submits an annual budget to the finance director of the province (who is a dear friend or hers), and then they work things out according to what the order can afford. Some nuns work in good-paying jobs, and some in jobs that pay nothing - and they pool their resources for the common good.
Obedience for nuns is no longer the burden that it once was, although there must be some give-and-take in community living. So, my boss has a budget, but it's a very loose one. To my mind, modern nuns are some of the happiest people on the face of the earth. They live with people they love and do the work they choose to do. And they do marvelous things.
Which is why the Vatican is investigating them....

Outside the U.S., the only nuns I've had close contact with, are Sisters of Mercy in Ireland and England. They're very similar in philosophy to the Americans. Strong, independent, wonderful women.

-Joe-

P.S. Oh, and speaking of "holy hankies" - when a priest blows his nose on a purificator, I throw it out. It doesn't happen often, but I HAVE seen it happen.

Subject: RE: BS: Sacristan Duties
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 29 Jan 13 - 05:37 PM

Very interesting Joe, and food for thought. What a shame that HQ feels the need to 'investigate' modern communities of nuns, when it's obvious they work so well. I got to know nuns from Institute of the Blessed Virgin Mary(IBVM, a Catholic order) a Franciscan nun I met in Liverpool with whom I corresponded for many years until her death, and the Community of All Hallows (Anglican) with whom I made many retreats. The IBVMs did a lot of prison work. I always found the sisters practical sensible and not obsessed with ritual or unnecessary details where real Christian work was needed. I would've liked to have been a nursing nun in West Africa, but you can't decide these things, God does that!

Subject: RE: BS: Sacristan Duties
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 29 Jan 13 - 06:25 PM

What I am trying to figure out is why the upper clergy are dressed in such expensive and frivolous clothing and nuns are usually modest and frankly drab. Oh..sort of like me. Why do we see such male frippery? Are they not uncomfortable dressing up like peacocks? I also can see you want to keep younger nuns as modest as possible, but wouldn't the same frippery also apply at least to older women a bit? On various discussion groups etc. it always comes up the men dressing up in brocade..they always comment on the Prada shoes..why does a man need Prada shoes? Someone has calculated the cost of one of Cardinal Burke's go to outfits.

Something concerns me..I have not heard it mentioned other than in when I was searching for the only sensible pope in my lifetime had to say..John Paul I...he was apparently concerned that many priests were transvestites and were somewhat fetish-like about the vestments..boy, that could explain a lot. I want to find the exact place he said it.
Could this be so? I think you would have to drag most men kicking and screaming into those outfits, but if they were attracted to them..it also could explain why sermons go on so long etc...

Subject: RE: BS: Sacristan Duties
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 30 Jan 13 - 04:26 AM

I have a few completely atheist friends, and they all say that in their opinion 'church' people (meaning priests, nuns, clergy, congregation, anyone who goes to church) are all strange/weird in some way. I imagine they include me in in this condemnation. We have many things in common and enjoy our friendship, so their comments don't disturb me. But it seems this view is quite prevalent, that you find many weird, odd, abnormal, bizarre etc folk connected to the church. One friend, Ronda, reckons that weird people are lonely and they find a welcome of sorts in the church. It's one of the few organisations that is (supposedly) accepting and non-judgmental. Looking back over decades, I can't say I've noticed any wonky or weird clergy particularly. But I've always been a bit naive, so maybe my views aren't worth much!

Subject: RE: BS: Sacristan Duties
From: Joe Offer
Date: 30 Jan 13 - 04:52 AM

The National Catholic Reporter has an entertaining article on the ecclesiastical finery worn by cardinals and such.

Eliza, my boss, Sister Judy, is a member if the Institute of the Blessed Virgin Mary (IBVM) sisters, and I've worked with several other IBVMs. They're good folks. My boss started as a math teacher in a girls' high school. Then she worked for 14 years at a homeless shelter, taking two years off to work with refugees in Rwanda. She has been director of the women's center where I work for six or seven years. She's a wonderful person to work with - she serves as my go-fer when I'm doing maintenance work.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Sacristan Duties
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 30 Jan 13 - 05:06 AM

I had a lot of contact with the IBVMs when Prison Visiting. A group of sisters used to go into the prison each week to do cooking with the (male) inmates. They thoroughly enjoyed it and so did the lads. I got to know their 'boss' Sister Patricia and was invited several times to visit them at home. They lived in a semi-detached house (not a convent) called Mary Ward House. They attracted me for their practical Christianity and lack of fussiness. They ran a Catholic Boarding School, St Mary's in Ascot, and several of the sisters had taught there. I was, though, very attracted also to the Franciscans for their poverty and simplicity. Sister Margaret was a pattern of humility and charity, and of course St Francis was very close to the natural world, which I love. The Anglican nuns (there are dozens of Anglican Orders) were actually more ritual-minded. I made several retreats with the All Hallows bunch. I so wanted to be a nurse and a nun, but God seemed to have Africa in mind for me!

Subject: RE: BS: Sacristan Duties
From: Peter the Squeezer
Date: 30 Jan 13 - 01:49 PM

I agree with Eliza's comment in her first post - it's a bit of cloth, and we don't worship bits of cloth!

Subject: RE: BS: Sacristan Duties
From: Peter the Squeezer
Date: 30 Jan 13 - 01:56 PM

In the days when I was a server (in an Anglican Church) the most annoying part of the duties was cleaning lipstick stains off the Chalice.

Subject: RE: BS: Sacristan Duties
From: Charmion
Date: 30 Jan 13 - 02:30 PM

My mother complained bitterly about removing lipstick stains from purificators. Back then, laundry detergent was not what it is today, and the only effective bleach was Javel water (Javex).

Subject: RE: BS: Sacristan Duties
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 30 Jan 13 - 03:45 PM

Could any researchers try to find the place where Pope John Paul I talks about what he called paraphelia I believe. I bookmarked it and can't find it..I don't think it was a direct quote..I think it was in one of the main biographies of him.

He was about to start selling some church finery to fund poor people. He also was made pope wearing fewer doodads than his predecessors. I have held off talking about the vestment fetish, because it is so creepy, but if a pope who was Cardinal of Venice, I believe, talked about it, it must be a possibility. Google Cardinal Burke..somewhere it gives a list of how much some of the vestments he is wearing are...look at some of the pictures. It is creepy.

I have no problem with them getting polyester at $4/yard and making some simple, colorful robes or whatever. It does not have to be silk, gold embroidered, etc. And I think there is some link between the over the top dressing and thinking you are close enough to God therefore to break some of the most universal taboos if not commandments. And just recently there was the cross-dressing priest, which is fine with me if they all do..but he also sold meth...which is not fine..another in bondage..there is something going on.

Subject: RE: BS: Sacristan Duties
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 30 Jan 13 - 03:56 PM

Google cardinal burke vestments

or here are some nice ones to see

http://thewoundedbird.blogspot.com/search/label/Cardinal%20Raymond%20Burke

Subject: RE: BS: Sacristan Duties
From: Joe Offer
Date: 30 Jan 13 - 05:18 PM

I think it's kind of fitting that Cardinal Burke wears such finery. To my mind, he's one of the most contemptible clerics the American Catholic Church has produced, worse even than Bernie Law. The adage says that clothes make the man, so it seems fitting that ridiculous people should wear ridiculous clothes.

These guys far out-dress the pope, I think.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Sacristan Duties
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 30 Jan 13 - 06:47 PM

that is not bad..dignified, looks normal to me.

And the one we have to watch is in New York and apparently thought he had a good chance for pope..I think he could not swing it now because there would be such an outcry about not only his financial dishonesty but his being on Donahue's coattails in terms of further abusing victims.

Subject: RE: BS: Sacristan Duties
From: JennieG
Date: 31 Jan 13 - 12:28 AM

Speaking as one who has an interest in textiles and who is not of the Roman Catholic persuasion, where does all that beautiful lace come from? Is it hand-spun by nuns working their fingers to the bone somewhere in a dark convent, or there a factory somewhere churning it out by the yard?

The Presbyterian church in which I was raised (and from which I have since collapsed) was quite austere by comparison, although there was a lace edging - not a wide one - on the otherwise plain white altar cloth.

Eliza, thank you for starting this thread - it's been very thought-provoking, and interesting.

Cheers
JennieG

Subject: RE: BS: Sacristan Duties
From: Joe Offer
Date: 31 Jan 13 - 12:31 AM

Yeah, I thought the Pope looked pretty normal, just a white cassock with little ornamentation - traditional without being garish. I kinda like Benedict XVI. He's conservative, but appears to be open to discussion.

John Paul I was Pope for just a month in 1978. He was found dead sitting up in his bed shortly before dawn on 29 September 1978. He reportedly had a heart attack, but there are many conspiracy theories that suspect that he was murdered. He had been expected to be a liberal Pope, perhaps even more progressive than John XXIII. Instead, we went back into the Middle Ages with John Paul II.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Sacristan Duties
From: mg
Date: 31 Jan 13 - 01:08 AM

I don't know if he was murdered..odd that his best friend died of a hit and run the next day...all sorts of other cardinals died around the same time. I think there were a couple of deaths from gargoyles or something falloing on people in separate places. How coincidentanl. One thing is very wierd..he apparently was found by a nun who was bringing saym coffee. THey could not say a female had found. Magee..the same Magee I believe mentionede in the Coyne Report of Ireland.
.was said to have found him. This connection is very odd. Read and read all you can a bout the pope, what he had to say..it is hard to separate fact from fiction..I can't..just everyone sort it out for themselves...he was an awesome man...they say in poor health..doctors did not agree. he was a champion moun tain climber. Worked to get orp0hans adopted, including by homosexuals. In his poor alpine hometown, apparentlyh a cart went around every morning to pick up orpnha s who had frozen to death..and they locked church doors to keep orphans out..as a child, according to what I read, he didn't go to mass one day, went home and cooked chicken soup for the orphans...lots of interesting tidb its. He was taking on the vatican mafia...said to have had a brilliant mind for finances and could spot irregularities..gee..think there could be some?

Subject: RE: BS: Sacristan Duties
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 31 Jan 13 - 05:44 AM

I must say, I rather like the idea of the old Celtic Christianity prevalent in Wales and other far regions of our Isles. A single 'saint' would live the life of a hermit in total simplicity and humility, and have several adherents who came to worship at his tiny 'church'. This was a very early form of Christianity, and to my mind, closer to the teachings of Jesus. There were absolutely no robes, finery, golden bits and bobs, simply because nobody had anything like that, nor wanted them. It seems to me a sincere, gentle and pure form of faith, but was swept away by the Roman forms of Christianity. I must say, if all the 'priceless' artefacts in RC and C of E possession were to be sold, imagine the good that could be done with the dosh! Norwich Anglican Cathedral, for example, has many golden chalices and other 'precious' things displayed in a secure stronghold behind reinforced glass. I cannot bear to look at them. Often, outside their massive West Door, an old derelict woman with carrier bags used to sit. We bought her a coffee and something to eat, but I was very, very bitter. What sort of church has cases of golden chalices while a poor old thing sits outside in the cold, friendless and destitute? Answers on a postcard please...

Subject: RE: BS: Sacristan Duties
From: Roger the Skiffler
Date: 31 Jan 13 - 05:52 AM

As a lapsed Methodist, non-attending Quaker,married to a CofE Licenced Lay Minister, I find all High Church rituals a nonsense, but if it floats your boat...
However, the original problem could have been solved it there were clear operating procedures. I know in my wife's church when there was a gap between fulltime sacristans, those helping out had a clear checklist of things to do and how to do them. If Eliza's church hasn't, or if Eliza wasn't given them, it wasn't her fault and the vicar should have had more Christian charity- it was no way to encourage helpers from the congregation.

RtS

Subject: RE: BS: Sacristan Duties
From: wysiwyg
Date: 31 Jan 13 - 06:39 AM

There are Anglican nuns, too, and they are pretty cool as a rule. :~)

~S~

Subject: RE: BS: Sacristan Duties
From: Peter the Squeezer
Date: 31 Jan 13 - 04:31 PM

All this (very eminent) discussion prompts the question -



WWJD?


or

WHAT WOULD JESUS DO?


He might just wink at us from His stained glass window!

Subject: RE: BS: Sacristan Duties
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 31 Jan 13 - 05:19 PM

I reckon He'd not be best pleased that what He aimed to teach us has gone so badly wrong. He certainly wouldn't be in favour of Holy Hankies. And great wealth, rich robes and golden objects would not meet with His approval either. Far from winking, I think he'd be waving His fist at us all!

Subject: RE: BS: Sacristan Duties
From: Joe Offer
Date: 01 Feb 13 - 03:18 AM

I dunno about golden objects and beautiful buildings and vestments. Part of me says it's a waste of money. Another part of me likes the pageantry and the ecclesiastical bling. Yeah, I suppose all that stuff could be sold to rich people so they could lock it away, but the pageantry is open for everyone to see. Even poor church members can see that stuff and say, "That's MINE!" That was certainly the case with immigrant churches in the U.S., especially the Polish Cathedrals - people built them as a form of community pride and self-expression.
I dare you to tell poor Catholics that they have to sell St. Peter's Basilica and the Vatican Museum.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Sacristan Duties
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 01 Feb 13 - 03:48 AM

He certainly wouldn't be in favour of Holy Hankies.
Maybe not.
But remember his reaction at finding those buying & selling blood-sacrifices, and charging for changing money into a form 'acceptable' in the Temple. (Matt 21, Mark 11 & Luke 19).

"What would Jesus do?" seems a pointless question. I don't think I could answer it. Even 'Papal Infallability' only covers certain matters.
Anyone who believes they know what Jesus would do in any given situation should either be a World leader, - or they're fooling themselves!