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BS: Sacristan Duties
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Subject: BS: Holy Hanky From: GUEST,Eliza Date: 21 Jan 13 - 04:20 PM Recently our vicar noticed that a little white cloth which is used in some way on the altar needed a wash. As the elderly lady who does it is a bit frail, I offered to launder it. I took it home and bunged it in the washing machine with all the white things and ironed it. Now it turns out that this bit of cotton cloth is in some way sacred, and should have been soaked in plain water, not in a plastic bowl but a 'good quality china one' for two hours. The soaking water should be reverently poured 'on bare earth' and the cloth then washed separately. It should be ironed in such a way that it ends up folded into nine squares. Now, this is in the Church of England, which doesn't (as far as I know) subscribe to transubstantiation. Am I alone in thinking all this so much mumbo-jumbo and verging on the idolatrous? It made me think of that film 'Life of Brian' where people go about worshipping shoes. To me, a bit of cloth is a bit of cloth. It's no holier than my husband's vests. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Sacristan Duties From: mg Date: 21 Jan 13 - 04:25 PM well at least you know now how to wash your husband's vests. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Sacristan Duties From: GUEST,999 Date: 21 Jan 13 - 04:26 PM Tell the vicar you had the devil's own time getting it clean. You won't have time to worry about washing it again. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Sacristan Duties From: GUEST,Eliza Date: 21 Jan 13 - 04:28 PM Actually some of my husband's vests are holier than this Holy Hanky. I must get round to doing a bit of mending! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Sacristan Duties From: GUEST,999 Date: 21 Jan 13 - 04:29 PM Transubstantiation/transmutation is symbolic in the CoE. It is 'real' in the Catholic faith. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Sacristan Duties From: Megan L Date: 21 Jan 13 - 04:29 PM It comes under the category "But we have always done it that way" of course the person who did it originally did not have soap powder or a machine and may have folded it in three before ironing to fit it on whatever they were ironing on . It reminds me of the lady who was showing a young woman how to boil a ham. She cut of a corner of the joint although the pot was way big enough to take the whole thing. The young woman asked why they had to do that. After much thought the answer was "I dont know it was the way my mother showed me I will ask her." so of she went to her mother who gave the same answer. Thankfully granny was still around and they both went to ask her. "Well I don't know why you do it I had to do it because my pot was to small." |
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Subject: RE: BS: Sacristan Duties From: GUEST,Eliza Date: 21 Jan 13 - 04:31 PM Not only have I no intention of doing Holy Laundry ever again, I'm seriously considering finding a more Low Church. I've never heard anything so absurd in my life. I was astounded actually! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Sacristan Duties From: GUEST,Eliza Date: 21 Jan 13 - 04:33 PM I thought the same as you Megan, so I went on line and looked up C of E Sacristan Duties. It's all there, Holy Hankies have to be laundered like that. Crazy. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Sacristan Duties From: Bobert Date: 21 Jan 13 - 04:36 PM 10 "Hail Marys" and call it a day, Eliza... B;~) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Sacristan Duties From: GUEST,999 Date: 21 Jan 13 - 04:38 PM When Catholics mess up like that they just lie about it and fess up once a year at Reconciliation (used to be called Confession). |
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Subject: RE: BS: Sacristan Duties From: Amos Date: 21 Jan 13 - 04:38 PM Eliza: If it weren't for all the furbelows and howdie-do's, the C of E clerics would look silly prancing around the way they do. You are absolutely correct about the idolatry--the hanky is just a woven image. Nothing substantive to it, and the washing machine will do just fine as long as the colors don't run!! A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Sacristan Duties From: Bill D Date: 21 Jan 13 - 04:44 PM If the vicar doesn't read Mudcat, you'll be ok....otherwise I suppose they'll need to consecrate a new Holy Hankie. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Sacristan Duties From: Charmion Date: 21 Jan 13 - 04:51 PM Ah, Eliza, you have run afoul of the Altar Guild rules, you bad thing, you. What a load of ol' dishwater that vicar is feeding you. He should have said Thank you nicely and folded that dratted purificator himself, or taken it home himself in the first place if holy laundry is that important to him. And I write this as a life-long Anglican. My mother used to bring home the church linen and silver for cleaning because the church well was contaminated with sulfur, and there was no nonsense about china bowls and tipping the wash water onto the earth -- not in an Ontario winter. It's clear from the Gospels that Jesus ate his meals where he could get them, and I bet he wiped his chin with his sleeve. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Sacristan Duties From: Don Firth Date: 21 Jan 13 - 05:01 PM I've heard the story that back a century or two ago, in pre-revolution Russia, the Czar's young daughter saw the first snowflake of winter fall in the garden below her window. At least, the first one she saw fall. She sent a palace guardsman down to the garden to stand by the snowflake and keep anything from happening to it. It was exceeding cold, so the flake was probably not going to melt and disappear any time soon. Years, actually several decades later, someone asked why there was always a palace guardsman standing watch in the garden. Nobody knew why until some elderly servant recalled the princess sending the guardsman down there to guard the snowflake. Maybe something like that? In any case, I really doubt that God will get that ticked off about it. Be of good cheer. Don Firth |
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Subject: RE: BS: Sacristan Duties From: DMcG Date: 21 Jan 13 - 05:10 PM As a practising Roman Catholic, I'd say your vicar has got confused between the ceremonial and the actual purpose of religion. Obsession with that sort of flim-flam about something of no real significance at all at the very least risks a distraction from thinking about more important stuff, like what the church is doing to help the locality. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Sacristan Duties From: MartinRyan Date: 21 Jan 13 - 05:12 PM Now if the hanky belonged to a Morris side... ;>)> Regards |
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Subject: RE: BS: Sacristan Duties From: GUEST,Eliza Date: 21 Jan 13 - 05:56 PM I've been an Anglican all my life, except when I lived in Scotland and went to the Episcopalian church for a while. I'd never heard of all this before now though. It is indeed a 'purificator' or else a 'corporal' Charmion, not sure which. We don't have incense or genuflect etc, so it's not all that High Church. If I chucked the Holy Hanky Water on the garden, it's quite likely one of my cats would have a nice poo right there, what's sacred about that? It's all ridiculous, my old father would have had something to say, he was a very Calvinistic Presbyterian! I'll have to tell the Vicar I won't be washing this Sacred Hanky again. I agree that the chap could do it for himself if he wants to worship a cloth. It's very dodgy to get so intense about ordinary objects. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Sacristan Duties From: GUEST,Eliza Date: 21 Jan 13 - 06:01 PM LOL, Martin. I absolutely adore Morris dancing and would gladly launder their hankies (and burnish their baldricks) any time! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Sacristan Duties From: gnu Date: 21 Jan 13 - 06:03 PM Sounds like a lotta hanky panky ta me. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Sacristan Duties From: wysiwyg Date: 21 Jan 13 - 06:18 PM I have know several sacristans who were deeply reverent and able to explain their practices' relevance quite beautifully. Our parish has a little Altar Guild handbook that explains all of them. We consider Altar Guild (sacristan) duties to be quite a serious ministry. ~Susan |
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Subject: RE: BS: Sacristan Duties From: akenaton Date: 21 Jan 13 - 06:30 PM Ritual has a large place in all religions, ancient and modern. just been watching a film on South American peoples who dripped blood from animal sacrifices on to ceremonial stones to encourage fertility in the earth. It seemed to work for thousands of years, but nature finally tired of the game, the atmophere warmed up and the people died or lived on grubs and leaves......you win a few, you lose a few. But nature rules!! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Sacristan Duties From: Amos Date: 21 Jan 13 - 07:12 PM Frippery is frippery no matter how much arbitrary signifying you attach to it. You could turn an ordinary pair of roller skates into Blessed Vehicles of Spiritual Transformation if you could get a big enough crowd to buy in, and bless them if they wouldn't get all the frissons in the world out of it, too. That makes it useful for crowd control, but it does not add any truth to it. It's purely a postulated relationship, and each participant manufactures his own frissons. That's how frissons work, for goodness sake. They are all home-made. A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Sacristan Duties From: gnomad Date: 21 Jan 13 - 09:08 PM The time for the vicar to raise any question of methods of laundry for this item would be before handing it over, such particular arrangements are certainly not common knowledge. It sounds to me as though the vicar is laying-off his guilt onto Eliza, who can politely but firmly decline it. Her mistake (if such it was, though that seems debatable at best) was caused by his neglect of his duties as he sees them. Of course if the criticism is coming from the ousted "elderly lady" (or even worse, from someone who has decided to be offended on her behalf) then a whole new set of politics comes into effect. The only way to win that game is not to play. Ironing a square into 9 smaller squares isn't rocket science, check if he wants it starched (I am guessing yes, it helps the cloth to 'stand', and will reduce soiling between washings). Of course this presupposes that he lets you touch it again. The offended party could always replace the cloth, and make suitable arrangements for future ritual purifications, if (s)he feels sufficiently motivated, otherwise it might be time for him/her to |
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Subject: RE: BS: Sacristan Duties From: Joe Offer Date: 21 Jan 13 - 10:43 PM I'm a sacristan with the Romans. Our parish was new in 2005, and nobody knew what a sacristan was. Now, the stereotypical Catholic sacristan is a fussy, mousy eunuch; and I had no desire to fit that model. So...I reinvented the role into a sort of concierge. I make sure everybody feels happy and welcome, anticipate and resolve problems before they happen, and make sure all the volunteers show up and all the jobs are done. My job often involves heavy-duty electronics, plumbing, and custodial work. I maintain the illusion that I know everything because I had eight years of seminary training, and that keeps everybody happy. Whether you believe in transubstantiation or hold to other interpretations of the Lord's Supper, the consecrated bread and wine used in Eucharist are sacred, and should be so. If you lose the sense of the sacred in ritual (religious or otherwise), then the ritual becomes empty and routine. Everything connected to the ritual should be treated as important, because it conveys an important meaning. This also should apply to graduation ceremonies and even birthday parties. Otherwise, these rituals lose their meaning. We do the initial washing of chalices, corporals, and purificators in a sink called a sacrarium - it's just a plain sink with a cover, and it drains to the ground instead of into the sewage system. Then the obsessive-compulsive ladies of the Altar Society take the cloths home and launder them in their own washing machines. It's hard to get red wine stains out of white linens. There are some enzyme soaks that do a pretty good job, though. I tried to talk our priest into switching from red to amber-colored wine to reduce the stains, but he wouldn't buy that. I was raised in Wisconsin with amber wine, he in Ireland with red wine. But the ladies of the Altar Society do a good job and keep him happy, so bless them for that. Eliza, if you had done what you did in MY church, I would have thanked you profusely and offered to buy you a beer. So, not to worry. -Joe- |
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Subject: RE: BS: Sacristan Duties From: Amos Date: 21 Jan 13 - 11:20 PM I maintain the illusion that I know everything because I had eight years of seminary training You sure you feel comfortable asserting this naked truth, Joe?? ;>) A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Sacristan Duties From: Joe Offer Date: 22 Jan 13 - 12:26 AM Hey, Amos - illusions have brought me a long, long way in this life. In thirty years as a federal investigator, I maintained the illusion that I had authority. In actuality, all I had was my ballpoint pen and my boyish charm and good looks.... And if that doesn't work, I buy the other person a beer, and it all works out. -Joe- |
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Subject: RE: BS: Sacristan Duties From: Nigel Parsons Date: 22 Jan 13 - 03:51 AM Joe: Red wine stains on corporals or purificators: We have a sufficient supply that we don't wash them after every service (build up a small wash-load). What we do have (in the vicar's vestry) is a small bowl (plastic I'm sorry to say) containing water & table salt. Soaking immesiately after use usually removes any wine stains prior to taking home for laundry. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Sacristan Duties From: GUEST,Eliza Date: 22 Jan 13 - 04:24 AM Wysiwyg, I'm not and never have been a member of an Altar Guild neither am I a sacristan. To me, the stains on any cloth are just wine, not Christ's blood. The rinsing water can be chucked anywhere and I'm sure God doesn't mind a bit. He's much too great to be concerned with where it goes. I imagine (perhaps I'm wrong) that He'd rather one turned one's attention to helping the struggler, than be revering a Holy Hanky. Maybe I've inherited my Presbyterian father's religious views after all. I'm just not sure I want to belong to a Church that has this stance. Obviously, there is such a thing as sacrilege and one should be respectful in church, but this is taking things too far. I need to give it some thought... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Sacristan Duties From: GUEST,BobL Date: 22 Jan 13 - 04:29 AM A long soak (3 hours or more) in bio detergent initially at 30 deg C does the job nicely. As a small country parish church, we tend to be pragmatic about this sort of thing. Mind you, IIRC the Book of Common Prayer does say that leftover consecrated elements should be "consumed reverently" by the celebrant assisted, if necessary, by communicant church members. We understand "reverently" to exclude saying "cheers" on draining the Cup. "The Lord Jesus, his very good health" might be marginally acceptable. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Sacristan Duties From: Joe Offer Date: 22 Jan 13 - 04:42 AM Chalk up two points for BobL for that last post.... Touché Eliza, to many Anglicans and most Roman Catholics, the wine stains are the blood of Christ, and should be dealt with respectfully. I happen to think Christ doesn't mind and doesn't get all fussy about these things, but I do think it's important to respect people's sense of what's sacred [without going crazy about it]. That being said, I'm going to try Nigel's saltwater soak - in a practical, plastic bowl. Cold or hot water, Nigel? Do you soak them continuously until you launder them? -Joe- |
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Subject: RE: BS: Sacristan Duties From: GUEST,Eliza Date: 22 Jan 13 - 05:05 AM Sorry Joe, but I don't believe that Anglicans hold with the idea of transubstantiation. The whole act of communion to a Protestant is to remember Jesus' Last Supper and the subsequent sacrifice on the cross, but the bread and wine don't in any way change. We also have the vicar finish off the wine himself, it would presumably go off otherwise. Do you know, this situation has really got to me. After over sixty years in the Church of England, I never realised all the theology behind the scenes. I hope I can reconcile myself to it. If not, I'll have to decide what to do. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Sacristan Duties From: gnu Date: 22 Jan 13 - 05:12 AM I don't attend regularly. Last time was at a funeral. Many of those who took communion, including me as part of my respect for the deceased, passed by the wine steward (hey, I thought it ws funny and even God likes a joke). Is this common? Is it disrespectful? I think it's "sanitary" as I really don't care to drink from the same cup used by a number of people. I had another reason but nevermind. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Sacristan Duties From: Megan L Date: 22 Jan 13 - 05:14 AM Eliza talk to your minister explain to him how this has made you feel, any clergy who cares about his or her congregation will do what they can to ensure the wellbieng of the people they serve. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Sacristan Duties From: Musket Date: 22 Jan 13 - 05:35 AM Notwithstanding any contribution from me on the subject of religion will be seen as flippant or even condescending... I reckon that ritual is of very high importance to a religion. It is the least metaphysical and the most tangible part of the art. Considering the charity, helping others and being a god citizen part are not exclusive to religions, it just appears logical to me that ritual is taken seriously. With regard to what Jesus would say, why don't you ask him? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Sacristan Duties From: banjoman Date: 22 Jan 13 - 05:35 AM Strict Obvservance of ritual is, I feel, similar to the stance of the Pharisees who belived that observance of the law was all that was necessary for redemption. In the Catholic church (UK) at the present time, we are being asked to abandon years of music and hymns which we have used at services for over 40 years because they dont adhere strictly to the revised words of the liturgy. My own feeling is that this is a ploy by the church higherarchy to curtail the power of the laity. I believe that there are far more important things the Christian churches should be concerned about than adherence to ritual practices and words. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Sacristan Duties From: GUEST,mg Date: 22 Jan 13 - 05:37 AM well, there are some stains at least in the Catholic church that no amount of angel soap can ever completely wash away. mg |
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Subject: RE: BS: Sacristan Duties From: Michael Date: 22 Jan 13 - 06:15 AM Not even in the Magdalene Laundries? (See John Mulhern's lyrics, sung by, amongst other,s Grace Notes) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Sacristan Duties From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 22 Jan 13 - 07:01 AM I am an Anglican and this is new to me. It is true that the elements have to be all consumed and not left lying around once consecrated. I have sometimes had to help finish off the wine. My partner, a Methodist, gives the bread to the birds and hopes to be forgiven. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Sacristan Duties From: Lizzie Cornish 1 Date: 22 Jan 13 - 07:05 AM I'd offer to wash it every week, then throw it in the washing machine with my knickers...and hand it to the vicar with a BIG smile on my face...and catch Jesus winking at me from his stained glass window... :0) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Sacristan Duties From: GUEST,Eliza Date: 22 Jan 13 - 08:02 AM LOL Lizzie! I doubt whether I'll be asked again. But if so, I'll just explain it will go in with the normal 'whites' wash and if this is unacceptable, I'll suggest someone else takes it on. I feel it's best to 'get over rough ground as lightly as possible' without making a song-and-dance about it. Meanwhile I'll re-think my membership. As it is, I'm on the PCC, Friends of the Church Committee, a Reader, Sidesperson, Fundraising Committee and Church Cycle Ride Co-ordinator. So I'd better make up my mind where I stand on this one! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Sacristan Duties From: bobad Date: 22 Jan 13 - 08:07 AM Sacrificing a chicken to expiate your sin should make it all good. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Sacristan Duties From: Jack Campin Date: 22 Jan 13 - 08:21 AM I once read a book (aimed at American Jews in the 1970s) about how to keep a properly Jewish household. One little tip was that when re-using your oven for meat after cooking a milk-based dish in it or the other way round, you should work over the entire interior surface with a propane torch. Maybe the original Hebrew version of Leviticus has propane torches in it. The English translators seem not to have understood that bit. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Sacristan Duties From: GUEST,Eliza Date: 22 Jan 13 - 08:34 AM Haha Jack! I don't suppose they had washing machines in the sixteenth century either! You know, to complete atheists, all this rigmarole must seem hilarious if not utterly contemptible! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Sacristan Duties From: GUEST,CS Date: 22 Jan 13 - 09:45 AM While holy hanky washing rituals are no doubt par for the course in some Christian denominations, all that fuss over a piece of grubby linen, certainly seems like a strangely esoteric business for a Protestant church to indulge in. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Sacristan Duties From: Kenny B (inactive) Date: 22 Jan 13 - 10:02 AM To all gentlemen of the cloth, meant in the best psossible taste. Theres nuthin brands a man in life as plainly as his hanky |
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Subject: RE: BS: Sacristan Duties From: akenaton Date: 22 Jan 13 - 11:36 AM Davie is the tops.....Scotlands greatest poet and songwriter since Rabbie Burns. here |
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Subject: RE: BS: Sacristan Duties From: GUEST,leeneia Date: 22 Jan 13 - 11:48 AM Eliza wrote, "I'm seriously considering finding a more Low Church." Let me see. Somebody, probably the old and sickly woman, criticized Eliza's laundering. Meanwhile Do you like the music of the church, Eliza? Does the minister give intelligent, helpful sermons? Do you have friends there? Does the church do good works for those who need help? Are you turning your back on a lot of people trying to do right because one person was silly? ============ I'm reminded of the old song that jokes Go get the ax; there's a flea in Lizzie's ear. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Sacristan Duties From: Amos Date: 22 Jan 13 - 12:15 PM Joe, your ineffable charm is irresistible and ineluctable. A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Sacristan Duties From: GUEST,Eliza Date: 22 Jan 13 - 01:23 PM Thank you leeneia for your sensible approach to my dilemma. No, I sometimes don't like the music all that much as they have a taste for modern 'happy clappy' songs and even the old hymns have had their words changed to be non-sexist. The sermons are a bit airy fairy at times. The oldest friends I have don't go to this (or any) church. The congregation seem more concerned about raising money for repairing the church's leaky roof and collapsing tower and don't involve themselves awfully much with the 'village people'. As the vicar is rector of six churches he doesn't have much time for individuals. If I left, I doubt whether I'd be much missed as they're rather cliquey and seem a bit hostile to newcomers. (I haven't been living here as long as some of them.) I go to church there to worship God, which I could do in any church frankly. I feel this Holy Hanky thing has brought to a head some concerns I've had for a while now. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Sacristan Duties From: GUEST,mg Date: 22 Jan 13 - 01:45 PM Perhaps you tend more toward a Quaker style of religion. |
