BS: Pope resigns

Subject: BS: Pope resigns
From: GUEST,Peter Laban
Date: 11 Feb 13 - 06:14 AM

In a complete surprise move the Vatican has confirmed Pope Benedict is to step down.

Article

Subject: RE: BS: Pope resigns
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 11 Feb 13 - 06:40 AM

I suspect someone has found out where his personal bodies are buried.

Subject: RE: BS: Pope resigns
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 11 Feb 13 - 06:52 AM

BBC Live News

Subject: RE: BS: Pope resigns
From: Stu
Date: 11 Feb 13 - 06:53 AM

Old Nazi resigns from outdated, corrupt oppressive institution isn't news - Villa beat West Ham yesterday! That's news.

Subject: RE: BS: Pope resigns
From: gnu
Date: 11 Feb 13 - 07:04 AM

Benny quit? Holy shit!

Subject: RE: BS: Pope resigns
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 11 Feb 13 - 07:10 AM

It's apparently the first time in over 600 years that a Pope has actually resigned. I just read the full text of his retirement announcement. It seemed rather touching in its humility. If he is feeling his age and is also probably ill in some way, it's natural that he cannot continue. It will be interesting to see who will be elected to take his place. Perhaps a younger man? Or maybe a black Pope?

Subject: RE: BS: Pope resigns
From: GUEST,Peter Laban
Date: 11 Feb 13 - 07:17 AM

'maybe a black Pope?'

The bookies' favourite seems to be Peter Tuckson from Ghana, so maybe the time for an African pope has come.

Subject: RE: BS: Pope resigns
From: freda underhill
Date: 11 Feb 13 - 07:24 AM

It's possible he may have developed some illness like dementia, or some sort of cancer. That's the only circumstance under which I could see him willingly standing down, unless, as has been suggested by Richard, there is a scandal about to break.

He wasn't a Nazi, he was conscripted by the Nazis and deserted.

Subject: RE: BS: Pope resigns
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 11 Feb 13 - 07:30 AM

England beat Ireland in the 6 Nations.

Dave H

Subject: RE: BS: Pope resigns
From: selby
Date: 11 Feb 13 - 07:49 AM

When he took the job originally many pundits thought he was a "caretaker" pope whatever the reasons for his retirement does it mean the favourite is now ready and groomed?

Subject: RE: BS: Pope resigns
From: Charmion
Date: 11 Feb 13 - 08:28 AM

And Wales "upset" France in Six Nations play, according to the CBC. According to Edmund, France are still upset, having had their arse handed to them.

As for the Pope, he's old and frail. Of course he's abdicating.

Subject: RE: BS: Pope resigns
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 11 Feb 13 - 12:36 PM

"does it mean the favourite is now ready and groomed? "

Are you sure you want to use this phrase in this context Selby?

What I want to know is - "Does the Pope sh*t in the woods"

Best wishes

Subject: RE: BS: Pope resigns
From: akenaton
Date: 11 Feb 13 - 12:50 PM

I think the "black Pope trick" would be excellent....that would shut up the "liberal religiphobes".....   :0)

Subject: RE: BS: Pope resigns
From: Ron Davies
Date: 11 Feb 13 - 01:06 PM

"Old Nazi".    Nice to know Mudcatters are so objective and well informed, especially when it comes to religion.   

Gee, I wonder if the poster is an atheist.

If so, perhaps he didn't read the thread about guidelines for atheists. Espcially the part about tolerance.   As I noted earlier, it seems likely that for quite a few Mudcat atheists, the idea of their giving religious tolerance a try has been unfortunately but unavoidably postponed til the day after hell freezes over.

Subject: RE: BS: Pope resigns
From: GUEST,Musket sans cookie
Date: 11 Feb 13 - 01:07 PM

Even better Akenaton, even a gay pope?

That would shut a few up too eh?

Sorry, forgot. Being gay is a sin in catholic eyes, as opposed to covering up rape of young boys which for some reason isn't.

Subject: RE: BS: Pope resigns
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 11 Feb 13 - 01:09 PM

If only we had strong decent men and women (perhaps we do but I can't name them) to replace him. My biggest fear is the cardinal from ny was running for pope and might actually get it but he is under such legal scrutiny similar to C. Mahoney that I think his chances are way less than they were. Please don't let him be pope.

Subject: RE: BS: Pope resigns
From: frogprince
Date: 11 Feb 13 - 01:10 PM

Ake, don't you think a gay black female pope would be even better in that regard?

Subject: RE: BS: Pope resigns
From: Jim McLean
Date: 11 Feb 13 - 01:16 PM

According to the Roman Catholic faith the pope is infallible. Does mean He is not now infallible and, with a new pope, there would then be two infallibles?

Subject: RE: BS: Pope resigns
From: Little Hawk
Date: 11 Feb 13 - 01:34 PM

The ultimate "Game Change" possibility would be a black, female, lesbian Pope with learning disabilities. (This also applies to USA presidential picks.)

Jim - There have been periods in history when the Catholic Church was rocked by internal schisms which resulted in 2 officially recognized Popes being in power in different places at the same time...both claimed as infallible by their separate adherents...and most definitely not in agreement with each other. At around the time of Joan of Arc, for instance, there was one Pope in Southern France and another in Rome, and the church (which extended throughout all Christendom at that time) was divided as to who was the legitimate one. The clerics who tried Joan attempted to trip her up over this and asked her which Pope she was faithful to. She confounded them by saying in return, "Is there more than one?" Since they could not say there was more than one without religiously compromising themselves, they were unable to condemn her on that point.

But...people make way too much hoo-hah about a Pope's supposed infallibility. Don't the leaders of most very hierarchical organizations act like they are infallible most of the time? And don't all their followers do what they are told, thus appearing to confirm the leader's infallibility? This is true of corporate CEOs, Presidents, Mafia Capos, gang bosses, military commanders, police chiefs, and hierarchical bosses of all kinds throughout society. THEY get to decide. Everyone else is expected to obey, follow orders, or get fired, court-martialed, excommunicated, demoted, etc. It's standard behaviour in a million different secular hierarchies, not just in the Catholic Church, and people make a big deal out of it in regards to the Catholic Church just so they can enjoy hurling a little spite at religion for the 85 billionth time. It makes them feel good to do that...so they search constantly for another opportunity to do so. This says nothing about religion, and a great deal about the meanness of the human ego.

Subject: RE: BS: Pope resigns
From: DMcG
Date: 11 Feb 13 - 01:36 PM

According to the Roman Catholic faith the pope is infallible
No he isn't - it is much more subtle than that. There's no reason anyone outside the RC church should worry about the nuances, but that doesn't mean they should be unaware that they exist.

As for a gay, black, female pope - I wouldn't object, personally, but the odds are very much against it! A pope open to gays, married and women priests is also a long shot, but there's no reason it should not happen eventually, and it could even be this time in theory. I don't know of any such cardinal, personally, but there is always scope for the occasional surprise (Pope John XXIII, for example)

Subject: RE: BS: Pope resigns
From: theleveller
Date: 11 Feb 13 - 01:38 PM

He took his own advice and pulled out early. Now he's waiting for the second coming.

Subject: RE: BS: Pope resigns
From: Mrrzy
Date: 11 Feb 13 - 01:38 PM

I think he doesn't want to go down in history as the Pope who presided over the Catholic Church having to accept homosexuality as a natural possibility, the way they had to with left-handedness. I think he knows that the Church will lose the fights over priests marrying, women being ordained, and a bunch of other sexual bigotry that is about to go by the wayside.

Kinda like C. Everett Koop quitting after the big research project on abortion showed that it wasn't bad for women, so he wouldn't be the Surgeon General when that came out.

Hee hee. I said "come out..."

Subject: RE: BS: Pope resigns
From: Acorn4
Date: 11 Feb 13 - 01:39 PM

Apparently one of the reasons is failing eyesight; perhaps he wants to become a football referee?

Subject: RE: BS: Pope resigns
From: theleveller
Date: 11 Feb 13 - 01:41 PM

"the idea of their giving religious tolerance a try"

Hmmmm...not something this Pope is famous for. Anyway what does religious tolerance have to do with being an old Nazi?

Subject: RE: BS: Pope resigns
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 11 Feb 13 - 01:52 PM

Just watched him on the News. He really is astonishingly frail, and it's obvious he isn't able to continue, so I don't think it's due to an impending scandal. He was forced into the Hitler Youth (as were many) and is basically an avowed monk and great theologian. He tried to hold the line on Catholic doctrine, being of a conservative mind. No Pope is infallible all the time, just when pronouncing doctrine on special occasions. (As I understand it. I'm an Anglican, not RC. Joe Offer may be able to explain it to us.) I find the mockery and insulting remarks here a bit hard to take. This is about the man himself and not about Religion in general or RC scandals etc. I see him as courageous, devout and humble.

Subject: RE: BS: Pope resigns
From: Rapparee
Date: 11 Feb 13 - 01:55 PM

There have been African and even black Popes before. Not many, and early on. Check out the history of the Papacy.

Subject: RE: BS: Pope resigns
From: Rapparee
Date: 11 Feb 13 - 01:58 PM

Besides, I don't understand why race would matter.

Subject: RE: BS: Pope resigns
From: Will Fly
Date: 11 Feb 13 - 02:00 PM

I'm not religious in any way, and I have no feelings for Catholicism, the Pope or any other aspect of religion.

But... if you take the trouble to read about Ratzinger, you'll learn that, far from being an "old Nazi", he was coerced in to the Hitler Youth movement and deserted from it.

If you take the trouble to read a little further, you'll find out that (a) he was one of the oldest cardinals to be elected Pope (in 2005) and (b) he was on the point of retirement and didn't really want to be Pope in the first place. His main secular love was playing the piano.

If an old man genuinely feels that he can no longer take the strain of being the Supreme Pontiff of the Catholic Church - with all that that entails - why criticise him? He may or may not have condoned some of the ills which have beset the church over the years - if so, those things will be on his conscience.

Even we atheists can have a little compassion occasionally.

Subject: RE: BS: Pope resigns
From: Megan L
Date: 11 Feb 13 - 02:00 PM

They say ignorance is bliss Jings there must be a lot of ecstatic folk on mudcat. But then some folk have never let truth stop them from their wee diatribes against religion.

Not my belief system but live and let live.

Subject: RE: BS: Pope resigns
From: Will Fly
Date: 11 Feb 13 - 02:01 PM

Megan - we cross-posted, but I agree with you all the way.

Subject: RE: BS: Pope resigns
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 11 Feb 13 - 02:08 PM

What I have noted is that it seems to be generally agreed that his views have been very reactionary. Even by the standards of that church.

Subject: RE: BS: Pope resigns
From: Will Fly
Date: 11 Feb 13 - 02:10 PM

Fair point, Richard. Might that be a function of his age, in fact?

Subject: RE: BS: Pope resigns
From: frogprince
Date: 11 Feb 13 - 02:14 PM

The absurd part is the hyped notion that this is a stunning crisis for the RC church, let alone the whole world. He's shown the intelligence and grace to spare the institution from having to stumble along with the pretext of having a leader. A lot of people will be hoping for a more open-minded successor, but it won't serve much purpose to stress over something we have absolutely no influence on.

Subject: RE: BS: Pope resigns
From: bobad
Date: 11 Feb 13 - 02:15 PM

A Cardinal dude from Quebec is apparently among the frontrunners for the gig:Canadian Cardinal Marc Ouellet among frontrunners to replace Pope Benedict XVI.

Subject: RE: BS: Pope resigns
From: GUEST,Sugarfoot Jack in the ether
Date: 11 Feb 13 - 02:17 PM

The Nazi thing was tounge in cheek (the bit about the institution wasn't), but he did serve in the Werhmacht before he had it away on his toes when it was obvious the game was up.

The news just said he abolished purgatory. That was nice of him.

Anyway, he condemned many to a long, slow death from aids for the want of allowing some of the most vulnerable in his flock to stick a nodder on their jake. I bet Jesus loves that.

The papal bull is, apparently 90% horsemeat.

Subject: RE: BS: Pope resigns
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 11 Feb 13 - 02:19 PM

Rapparee, you're right, the race of a new Pope shouldn't matter. But each part of the world likes to be able to identify with the Pope. I heard that Africa has the fastest growing numbers of Catholics, and it would encourage them to have a black Pope.

Subject: RE: BS: Pope resigns
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 11 Feb 13 - 02:56 PM

Surely if the next incumbent is to be a black, female,lesbian Pope with learning difficulties she should only have one arm or leg and be colour blind.

Subject: RE: BS: Pope resigns
From: GUEST,Tunesmith
Date: 11 Feb 13 - 02:58 PM

What is really worrying is that Governments and the media give so much time and respect to a 2000yr old fairy tale!

Subject: RE: BS: Pope resigns
From: DMcG
Date: 11 Feb 13 - 03:07 PM

Well, its a matter of opinion but a decision that affects many millions for good or ill, both in the way the live generally and in specifics of things like aids seems to be a good deal more newsworthy than most celeb stories, football matches, whether a cyclist did or not take drugs and a heck of a lot of other stuff that passes for news

Subject: RE: BS: Pope resigns
From: Amos
Date: 11 Feb 13 - 03:08 PM

How do you "retire" from being the Voice of God on Earth? Do you have to turn in your handset? What if you kept getting message traffic from the Infinite? Without the Office, what would you do? Perhaps become a beleaguered prophet? What of you kept getting messages and they conflicted with those being received and promulgated by the New Pope? Would Cahos be unleashed amongst the followers?

Subject: RE: BS: Pope resigns
From: The Sandman
Date: 11 Feb 13 - 03:11 PM

It's possible he may have developed some illness like dementia, or some sort of cancer. That's the only circumstance under which I could see him willingly standing down, unless, as has been suggested by Richard, there is a scandal about to break.

He wasn't a Nazi, he was conscripted by the Nazis and deserted.
can you prove he was not a nazi, anyway he is a backward looking old fart and a boring old fart , even more of a boring old fart than joe stead

Subject: RE: BS: Pope resigns
From: GUEST,Tunesmith
Date: 11 Feb 13 - 03:14 PM

Religion is a very malicious drug!
Should the media and Governments defer to drug pushers?
I don't think so!

Subject: RE: BS: Pope resigns
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 11 Feb 13 - 03:27 PM

While a black Pope would be OK as such, much of the "Catholic Christian" church in Africa is horrifyingly repressive.

Subject: RE: BS: Pope resigns
From: Noreen
Date: 11 Feb 13 - 03:32 PM

Wouldn't it be nice to be able to have an intelligent debate on Mudcat -like when I first joined- without foul-mouthed, narrow-minded abusive posts from those who feel they have to comment on every topic even when they know next to nothing about it?

I am no apologist for the Pope or for the Catholic church, but the resignation and succession have great relevance for many, worldwide- and as such I find it interesting.

If you have nothing constructive to add to the discussion, perhaps you could go and chat somewhere else please?

Subject: RE: BS: Pope resigns
From: Megan L
Date: 11 Feb 13 - 03:41 PM

Unfortunately certain people in the cat these days are all for free thought as long as we think what they tell us

Subject: RE: BS: Pope resigns
From: Donuel
Date: 11 Feb 13 - 03:58 PM

I reccomend Pope Richard    Dawkins
Pope Steven                Hawking

Subject: RE: BS: Pope resigns
From: JennieG
Date: 11 Feb 13 - 04:07 PM

Catholics have given up the Pope for Lent?

Subject: RE: BS: Pope resigns
From: GUEST,Grishka
Date: 11 Feb 13 - 04:12 PM

Respect for those who see when it's time to resign and do so.

As for a black pope, like Obama he may never be considered black enough, if he refuses to celebrate Black Masses.

Subject: RE: BS: Pope resigns
From: Donuel
Date: 11 Feb 13 - 04:14 PM

We also need some new Cardinals;
Cardinal Ray Kurzweil, Cardinal Lawrence Krauss but best of all...
Cardinal Jenifer Micheal Hecht

Required reading list to select the best people alive;

The Age of Spiritual Machines, The Singularity Is Near
The Meme Machine, Conversations on Consciousness, Creationism's Trojan Horse
The Good Man Jesus and the Scoundrel Christ, The Golden Compass
Four Laws That Drive the Universe, Galileo's Finger, Doubt: A History, The End of the Soul, Hiding in the Mirror, What Is Secular Humanism?, Science and Religion,

Subject: RE: BS: Pope resigns
From: GUEST,Tunesmith
Date: 11 Feb 13 - 04:20 PM

What these defenders of religion seem to forget is that religion is imposed on us!
In the States, if you are not a Christian, you will NEVER become president ( i.e. if you don't profess to follow a 2000yr old myth. you will not win an election!)
Now that is nonsense! Very dangerous nonsense!

In the UK, sittings in the Houses of Parliament start with prayers!
That is crazy!

For the sake of the nations sanity, anyone who professes to believe in God should be banned from political life!

Subject: RE: BS: Pope resigns
From: GUEST,Olga
Date: 11 Feb 13 - 04:28 PM

He as a man has must likely been privileged to the full extent of the depravity on those members of orders and parishes and can no longer play a role in an institution that has attracted so much criticism.

The Jimmy Saville exposure opened peoples eyes, he was one person and did so much damage, thousands of priests did this over the centuries and the gullible still followed them.

Subject: RE: BS: Pope resigns
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 11 Feb 13 - 04:31 PM

In the UK, sittings in the Houses of Parliament start with prayers!
In the USA schoolchildren pledge allegiance to the flag every morning. Is that any different to a religion?

Subject: RE: BS: Pope resigns
From: GUEST,Tunesmith
Date: 11 Feb 13 - 05:00 PM

John MacKenzie says

"In the USA schoolchildren pledge allegiance to the flag every morning. Is that any different to a religion?"

Well, that is based on reality! The flag represents a country and I'm pretty sure the USA does exist!

Of course, pledging allegiance to the flag is - in reality - pledging allegience to decisions made by politicians.
Now that is a rather dodgy!

Subject: RE: BS: Pope resigns
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 11 Feb 13 - 05:04 PM

Can one opt out of this ritual?
You can certainly opt out of morning prayers in parliament.
Even if you do so, you can still become Prime Minister.

Subject: RE: BS: Pope resigns
From: Jim McLean
Date: 11 Feb 13 - 05:13 PM

Little Hawk, thanks for your reply: I asked in ignorance of the RC point of view, genuinely seeking an intelligent reply. As an atheist, I was asking a technical question.

Subject: RE: BS: Pope resigns
From: Ebbie
Date: 11 Feb 13 - 05:23 PM

In the States, if you are not a Christian, you will NEVER become president ( i.e. if you don't profess to follow a 2000yr old myth. you will not win an election!)Guest/Tunesmith

I doubt that very much. We have had several Jews run for presidential office- keep in mind that until we had a Catholic president we had never had one and until we had a Black president, no previous one had been Black.

Before too many cycles, I predict, we will have a Jewish president.

Which is how it should be. Someday we will have a woman president, an Hispanic president... someday we will fully recognize that in America it is the character of the individual that matters, not the label.

Subject: RE: BS: Pope resigns
From: Ed T
Date: 11 Feb 13 - 05:24 PM

I dunno, I was thinking as to "best practices" other professions: does the mind actually get better with advanced age? I suspect not in most. If that is the case, a question is "who is really making the day-to-day decisions?

Maybe they need a younger fellow this time?

Seems odd that a "person of significant age" would take over such a demanding task (in todays challenging world), when they should be enjoying retirement. Maybe they need a gnu Pope, as our own newly retired gnu is looking for a gnu career?

As an alternative to gnu, why not a Pope from latin America, India, or somme non-western arena?

Subject: RE: BS: Pope resigns
From: Bobert
Date: 11 Feb 13 - 05:28 PM

Danged!!!

I guess these secret pics of the Pope and Honey Boo Boo that I came upon ain't gonna make me rich after all???

B;~(

Subject: RE: BS: Pope resigns
From: Donuel
Date: 11 Feb 13 - 05:31 PM

The church and the world wold be a better place if only Nuns were allowed to select and be Pope. The sexism in the church however may not change for another 100 years or more. I think the church prefers its current problems to be not that of Rome so they might go with a Canadian Pope since the Cardinal there is fluent in 6 languages and is the current advisor to Ratner.

I

Subject: RE: BS: Pope resigns
From: Ed T
Date: 11 Feb 13 - 06:03 PM

It is an over generalization to say that this Pope, of German RC stock, suffered "the Curse of the Blue Nun", but there may be some truth in it.

The idea that the increased involvement of Nun's at the top in selecting the pope may appeal to women never occurred to me - until now.nI had mostly considered the opportunities at the Prish-local level.

Can the "old RC boys club" rescue the RC church top-down structure from obscurity, in today's loosly adhered Christian-aligned world? My observation is that women adhere more strongly to the RC chruch (and have more family influence on the role of youth in the church) than men. Young women may be the strategic RC market of the future. So, is not a crazy strategy to have nuns more involved in the operation of the top levels of the church (versus the old boys club) and in the selection of the Pope. Great strategic marketing idea, Donuel.

Subject: RE: BS: Pope resigns
From: The Sandman
Date: 11 Feb 13 - 06:24 PM

Since when has Joe Stead been a profanity?

Subject: RE: BS: Pope resigns
From: The Sandman
Date: 11 Feb 13 - 06:31 PM

I apologise for using the term boring old fart, he is of course not a boring old fart., he is an unexciting, lack lustre, senior, emission of hot air.

Subject: RE: BS: Pope resigns
From: bobad
Date: 11 Feb 13 - 06:36 PM

"I apologise for using the term boring old fart, he is of course not a boring old fart., he is an unexciting, lack lustre, senior, emission of hot air."

He'd fit right in here.

Subject: RE: BS: Pope resigns
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 11 Feb 13 - 06:44 PM

I think, Dick, that that is uncalled for. Kimber's Men make some very exciting shanty sounds.

Subject: RE: BS: Pope resigns
From: gnu
Date: 11 Feb 13 - 07:20 PM

From: Megan L - PM
Date: 11 Feb 13 - 02:00 PM

They say ignorance is bliss Jings there must be a lot of ecstatic folk on mudcat. But then some folk have never let truth stop them from their wee diatribes against religion.

Not my belief system but live and let live.
*********************************************************

Just thought it should be repeated after reading all the shite rather than saying it in a more "forceful manner" which I am prone to do - for any who didn't know... >;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Pope resigns
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 11 Feb 13 - 07:59 PM

"The world is marked by hotbeds of tension and conflict caused by growing inequality between the rich and poor, by the prevalence of a selfish and individualistic mindset which also finds expression in an unregulated capitalism. " Pope Benedict in his New Year address on January 1st this year.

Describing him as an outright reactionary is to oversimplify and sloganize.

Subject: RE: BS: Pope resigns
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 12 Feb 13 - 02:12 AM

akenaton: "I think the "black Pope trick" would be excellent....that would shut up the "liberal religiphobes".....   :0)"

Yeah..he could take the name Pope A-Ha the 39th!

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Pope resigns
From: GUEST,Allan Conn
Date: 12 Feb 13 - 03:00 AM

In the Scottish Parliament rather than prayers they start the week with "Time For Reflection" which is supposed to take account of all beliefs and not just Church of Scotland. Speakers are supposed to reflect the population as a whole. Some still criticise it though. Speakers from non Christian religions are supposedly way over-represented in accordance to what their numbers in Scotland are as a % of population - and non religious people are way under-represented.

Subject: RE: BS: Pope resigns
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 12 Feb 13 - 03:24 AM

Well Allan, Scotland has a lot of Protestants. and Catholics. However, it's a bit short on christians!

Subject: RE: BS: Pope resigns
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Feb 13 - 04:31 AM

"Describing him as an outright reactionary is to oversimplify and sloganize."
Wonder if anybody saw the Vincent Brown interview last night on RTE 1 - "outright reactionary" just about sums H H up I'm afraid!!
Don't know if it is available on the RTE website, but well worth a dip into if it is.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Pope resigns
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 12 Feb 13 - 04:47 AM

John MacKenzie: "Well Allan, Scotland has a lot of Protestants. and Catholics. However, it's a bit short on Christians!"

Bravo, John!!..Someone who knows the difference!!!

Regards!!

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Pope resigns
From: GUEST,Big Al Whittle
Date: 12 Feb 13 - 04:55 AM

I feel so sorry these days for Catholics who love their church, like my best mate who was the best man at my wedding.

The need for reform in that institution is so obvious.   I'm not ranting with a heavy heart I point out this article.

http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/fighting_words/2010/03/the_pope_is_not_above_the_law.html

Subject: RE: BS: Pope resigns
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 12 Feb 13 - 05:00 AM

Tunesmith:
"In the USA schoolchildren pledge allegiance to the flag every morning. Is that any different to a religion?"

Well, that is based on reality! The flag represents a country and I'm pretty sure the USA does exist!

Of course, pledging allegiance to the flag is - in reality - pledging allegience to decisions made by politicians.
Now that is a rather dodgy!

Are you referring to the 'pledge of allegience:

I pledge allegiance to the Flag of the United States of America, and to the Republic for which it stands, one Nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all.


It seems to me that that is also religious.

Subject: RE: BS: Pope resigns
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 12 Feb 13 - 05:08 AM

In the future, what will Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger have for breakfast?



Ex Benedict!

Subject: RE: BS: Pope resigns
From: Joe Offer
Date: 12 Feb 13 - 05:10 AM

I think that John Paul II ("The Great") viewed himself as a Living Saint - and, regrettably, a lot of Catholics agreed with him. John Paul II did his best to negate the reforms of Vatican II, and to revive the Cult of the Pope. He was very successful on both counts. He viewed his remaining pope while suffering from Parkinson's disease as a sign of faithfulness, a good example to his "flock." I saw it as a misguided ego trip, and I think John Paul should have resigned five years before his death.

Benedict, on the other hand, was far more rational and far more humble. He resigned because it was a wise thing to do. If you read his statements in paragraphs instead of in sound bites, you'll find he was a reasonable, moderate man who was generally open to discussion. Much has been made of his failure to resolve the child molestation crisis in the Catholic Church, but the fact of the matter is that he is the first one in the Vatican to have done anything - and he had to do that in the face of many powerful men who had denied the problem for decades. Did John Paul II meet with victims and apologize to them? Certainly not - but Benedict did that time and time again, from the beginning years of his papacy.

He wasn't perfect, and I frequently disagreed with him; but I think he's a good man and I think he did the best he could to reverse the travesties of the previous papacy. I'm hoping for some miracle that will give us a pope who will bring joy and wisdom and compassion back to the Catholic Church, but I don't see any candidates the show much promise.

But I'm still hoping. What we need is a Desmond Tutu or a Dalai Lama.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Pope resigns
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 12 Feb 13 - 05:36 AM

""someday we will fully recognize that in America it is the character of the individual that matters, not the label.""

Well almost! It helps if he's a billionaire.

Paupers, however talented, intelligent or nice, need not apply.

America values its citizens by the number of zeros on their annual earnings.

Back on topic, I see no justification in all the vilification of the Roman Catholic Church because a minority of its clergy were abusive criminals and another minority tried to cover it up.

There are millions of believers out there who are a sight more Christian than some of those who attack them (and I use the term Christian in its "way of life" sense, rather than as a religious description).

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Pope resigns
From: Roger the Skiffler
Date: 12 Feb 13 - 05:43 AM

I wish the next Bishop of Rome all the best, whoever SHE is.

RtS

Subject: RE: BS: Pope resigns
From: GUEST,Dani
Date: 12 Feb 13 - 06:41 AM

Joe, be sure your ringer's on.
If God's paying any attention at all to what the Church needs, they'll be calling you.

Dani

Subject: RE: BS: Pope resigns
From: Charmion
Date: 12 Feb 13 - 07:16 AM

Thanks for that, Joe Offer. A reasonable and respectful opinion is a joy to read these days.

Subject: RE: BS: Pope resigns
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 12 Feb 13 - 07:23 AM

I've heard a rumour that Ireland have proposed Father Jack Hackett and Father Dougal McGuire as candidates.

Dave H

Subject: RE: BS: Pope resigns
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 12 Feb 13 - 07:25 AM

LOL! I'd vote for Father Jack. "Drrrrink! Girrrls!" Should liven things up a bit!

Subject: RE: BS: Pope resigns
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 12 Feb 13 - 08:10 AM

From Donnachadh McCarthy (FB friend of mine):

>>>>"Gently pleased that my comment on Joseph Ratzinger's retirement got one of the higher positive ratings on the BBC day's main story. (below is Donnachadh's BBC comment)

"as someone who suffered sexual abuse as an 8 year old altar boy in Ireland - I was horrified by this man's refusal to allow Irish police to examine Vatican paedophile records. An action that would have forced the resignation of the head of any other institution. He lethally collaborated with extremist religious fundamentalists in around the world to suppress women's and gay people's human rights."

I guess unlike nearly every other of the "state's" temporary "citizens" he will retain his bizarre citizenship of the Vatican "State" permanently following his resignation.

That would mean he can avoid charges in relation to his 20 years of supervision of the paedophile scandal and his refusal to allow those records to be examined by prosecutors around the world, charges that Geoffrey Robertson QC believes in his book are so severe that he should be arraigned in the Hague."<<<<<

Subject: RE: BS: Pope resigns
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 12 Feb 13 - 08:15 AM

I'd still love to see the Roman Catholic Church closed down entirely,it's riches distributed amongst it's World Congregation, particularly the Irish and the Native Americans...

We are over 7 thousand million humans now, yet STILL this crazy religion refuses to allow its followers to use contraception, virtually damning them to hell if they do...and why the heck people take ANY notice of what they say anymore befuddles me, other than Deep Fear can take hold of The Masses for a very long time, sometimes their entire lives....

It is a Bullying, Sexually Abusive, Sexually Repressed, Perverted Instituion, in my opinion and it has no right to be upon this Earth any longer, for it has been Weighed, Measured and found to be very, very Wanting!

Subject: RE: BS: Pope resigns
From: GUEST,Blandiver
Date: 12 Feb 13 - 08:34 AM

Very close to my Facebook mutterance yesterday which I'll quote here in full.

Pope resignation? Maybe the time has come for the Roman Catholic church to put an end to their miserable 2,000 Reich and set an example for other outmoded dinosaur religions to follow suite and yield to a brighter emergent spirituality that isn't founded on wholesale murder, inquisition, torture and the propagation of superstition, lies, ignorance, child abuse, AIDS, homophobia, apparitions and bad translations.

Also:

As John Peel said : 'The Roman Catholic church are a waste of talent and electricity'. Or was that ELP? A similar level of pomp, bombast and complete lack of concern for the adoring audience.

Furthermore:

Numbers are thinning out - album sales aren't what they were - they're doing all these big venues but half the seats are empty - even for the Bosco show at Paddy's Wigwam where they resorted to scantily clad & (allegedly) under-age dancing girls to lively things up a bit. Trouble is, they've got no new material - just same old greatest hits package trotted out over & over again. No wonder their lead singer has left them. It's like if Mark E Smith stepped down from The Fall. I think the RCC should go out with dignity instead of trundling on as their own half-assed tribute act.

Otherwise - Happy Pancake Day!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y04Qb9bLub4

Subject: RE: BS: Pope resigns
From: GUEST,Blandiver
Date: 12 Feb 13 - 08:42 AM

Benedict, on the other hand, was far more rational and far more humble.

Let's not forget that Benedict in his Ratzinger days headed The Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, the 'modern' guise of The Inquisition - responsible for the persecution, torture, and murder of countless thousands of innocent men, women and children. Rational? For sure. Humility? What planet are you on Joe?

http://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2005/04/pope-a21.html

Subject: RE: BS: Pope resigns
From: GUEST,Tunesmith
Date: 12 Feb 13 - 09:01 AM

Nigel Parsons reminds us that the pledge of allegience contains the following words:

"I pledge allegiance to the Flag of the United States of America, and to the Republic for which it stands, one Nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all"

Any reference to God - an invention of primitive man - does not belong in state schools or political assemblies!!

Subject: RE: BS: Pope resigns
From: bobad
Date: 12 Feb 13 - 09:30 AM

Pope Keithus Richardus I ?

Subject: RE: BS: Pope resigns
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 12 Feb 13 - 09:57 AM

Rev Ian Paisley did the papist spawn of the devil bit more eloquently. We haven't had Whore of Babylon or Scarlet Woman yet. Maybe they might be ruled out as potentially anti-female. But Isn't it time Antichrist made an appearance?

Subject: RE: BS: Pope resigns
From: theleveller
Date: 12 Feb 13 - 10:00 AM

A visit to the site of the Covenantors' prison in Edinburgh at the weekend gave me cause for thought.

"Otherwise - Happy Pancake Day!"

Or as we say oop 'ere in Yorksha

"Happy Flat Yorkshire Pudding Day" to all our southern friends.

Subject: RE: BS: Pope resigns
From: The Sandman
Date: 12 Feb 13 - 10:02 AM

here is a possible candidate for next pope.http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2qDCtkYwRAA&list=UURP7WMQXxECSg99PZ5rVbnA&index=156

Subject: RE: BS: Pope resigns
From: ollaimh
Date: 12 Feb 13 - 10:12 AM

the weight of evil destroys people. the thousands of child rape cases has been proven to have come right to his office and he was integral in the cover up. his nazi past is also likely darker than admitted. its hard not to be a killer from that world.

so the evil old man can't handle it anymore--what a surprise

ps be carefull about talking about nazis on mudcat--the mudcat censors defend old nazis from any criticisms

Subject: RE: BS: Pope resigns
From: Donuel
Date: 12 Feb 13 - 10:16 AM

No he wasn't a Nazi just a kid in a bomed out city told to man an anti aircraft gun. As Pope he esd the perfect counterpart to W Bush and the neocon crowd because he reknown to be conservative. He sold out (did not defend against military dictatorships) many Latin American priests and nuns but that was noting new.

BTW there is no proof to the rumor that he is abdicating because of his love of a thrice divorced American lady from NJ?
I don't believe the one about Ratner posting a picture of his 'bishop' on Facebook either.

It is said he will retire to a Monestary in northern Italy to do some writing and run a boys youth camp in the summers. Camp Ratner.

Subject: RE: BS: Pope resigns
From: Mr Happy
Date: 12 Feb 13 - 10:25 AM

A perfect opportunity for the Dalai Lama to step in!

Subject: RE: BS: Pope resigns
From: Bill D
Date: 12 Feb 13 - 11:39 AM

Just in case you are not familiar with the Pope, the Vatican newspaper has kindly provided a picture of him in a group, with a caption to prevent confusing him with his attendants.

I sure would never have guessed.....

Subject: RE: BS: Pope resigns
From: Ebbie
Date: 12 Feb 13 - 11:55 AM

"I pledge allegiance to the Flag of the United States of America, and to the Republic for which it stands, one Nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all."

For those who don't know: That phrase was never in there until 1954 when it was added - a McCarthy effect- under President Eisenhower. Many have tried to have it removed since.

Subject: RE: BS: Pope resigns
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 12 Feb 13 - 12:08 PM

Worshipping a flag - or a nation - is a form of idolatry, even without God being brought in. And as a form of idolatry, it's a kind of religion.

Subject: RE: BS: Pope resigns
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 12 Feb 13 - 12:15 PM

Funny cartoon today in the Daily Mail. Cardinals standing in a group saying, "True, we haven't yet had a Pope Tony!" while Mr Blair is just coming through the door wearing the Papal robes.

Subject: RE: BS: Pope resigns
From: Bill D
Date: 12 Feb 13 - 12:44 PM

".., one Nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all."

I learned it before 'under God' was added, and as an adult..(in the few times I have needed to recite it) I NEVER use the added phrase. If I am ever elected president, I will not take the oath on a bible or demand help from a god.

Subject: RE: BS: Pope resigns
From: GUEST,grumpy
Date: 12 Feb 13 - 12:47 PM

Is there any chance Donuel could be asked to post his messages in English?

Pope, shmope, who gives a flying fuck?

Subject: RE: BS: Pope resigns
From: saulgoldie
Date: 12 Feb 13 - 01:16 PM

And...100! (Couldn't resist!)

Subject: RE: BS: Pope resigns
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 12 Feb 13 - 01:51 PM

"I pledge allegiance to the Flag of the United States of America, and to the Republic for which it stands, one Nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all."

For those who don't know: That phrase was never in there until 1954 when it was added - a McCarthy effect- under President Eisenhower. Many have tried to have it removed since.

Not exactly a new addition then.
Pledge - composed 1892
Adopted - 1942
Unchanged since - 1954

So mention of God has been it it for 48% of its existance, and has been part of it for 82% of the time since its adoption by Congress.

Hardly a new change then.

Subject: RE: BS: Pope resigns
From: catspaw49
Date: 12 Feb 13 - 02:10 PM

I don't say the phrase either ....'Course I don't say the pledge. I also don't face the flag and sing the SSB. I look down during that and look up when there are prayers offered.

I am occasionally asked about one or the other that was noticed somewhere. Best answer is either truth (for those I think are actually interested) or for those who are just curious or miffed, "I'm sorry but I'm a devout Existentialist which prohibits my doing so I hope you understand." Most common answer from them, "Oh, I didn't know."


Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: Pope resigns
From: Bill D
Date: 12 Feb 13 - 02:57 PM

LOL, Spaw... a "Reformed Pragmatic Existentialist, synod of 1954" perhaps?

Subject: RE: BS: Pope resigns
From: Ed T
Date: 12 Feb 13 - 05:12 PM

I like and respect the Dalai Lama as he seems like a nice, compassionate, common sense, approachable fellow - with a keen sense of humour. Most other religious leaders take themselves far too seriously. IMO, they should all "lighten up" a bit.

Subject: RE: BS: Pope resigns
From: catspaw49
Date: 12 Feb 13 - 05:39 PM

LOL @ Bill......"Synod of 1954".....love it!


Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: Pope resigns
From: Joe Offer
Date: 12 Feb 13 - 06:29 PM

A lot of people have misconceptions about the Catholic Church. They seem to think that the Pope rules by personal mandate, and all Catholics are required to obey everything he says. Therefore, any problems in the Catholic Church are his doing.

The Pope is first among equals, "primus inter pares." He is one of five thousand bishops how preside over 2900 dioceses; and the head bishop is solely responsible for his own diocese, with certain restrictions and exceptions. But in general, each "ordinary" (head bishop in a diocese) calls the shots in his own area, and goes along with the Pope only if persuaded to do so. It took a lot for Rome to supersede local authority in the child molestation issue, and many powerful bishops were against any central control.

And it's a misconception to say that the Pope claims infallibility. He may declare certain teachings as infallible, but that doesn't happen very often.

As for the issue of birth control, it's rather silly to moan about the oppression of the Catholic Church prohibiting birth control. It's a silly rule, and most Catholics know it's silly. All Catholics have to do, is follow their conscience and do what they think is right - it's part of Catholic teaching that conscience has precedence over church law.

And remember also that membership in the Catholic Church is voluntary, as is obedience to church rules. Heck, most Catholics don't even know what their church teaches or requires.

So, all in all, the job of Pope is impossible. Don't be too hard on the guy for not having achieved all you might have liked him to have done. He was a hell of a lot better than the last Pope.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Pope resigns
From: GUEST,marks(on the road)
Date: 12 Feb 13 - 06:51 PM

Come on already.
If you are Catholic it is of interest.
If you are not Catholic, Ho Hum.

Subject: RE: BS: Pope resigns
From: gnu
Date: 12 Feb 13 - 07:07 PM

Louis A. Bowman??? THAT'S the fucker that should(a) be(en) strung up fer this load a bullshit spew that comes out of US politics? Grab yer torches... we'll find the asshole and tar and feather him! Or, someone could amend the pledge as he "did". After all, if that's what the founding fathers wanted, who's to change their words and minds... the NRA might support such a move?

Praise the Lord and pass the ammunition.... eh? >;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Pope resigns
From: michaelr
Date: 12 Feb 13 - 07:10 PM

Don't be too hard on the guy for not having achieved all you might have liked him to have done. He was a hell of a lot better than the last Pope.

I keep hearing the same thing about Obama, too. Doesn't make me feel any better about him.

Subject: RE: BS: Pope resigns
From: Jack Campin
Date: 12 Feb 13 - 07:26 PM

A visit to the site of the Covenantors' prison in Edinburgh at the weekend gave me cause for thought.

Sandy Bells is on part of the prison site, did you call in? (I was there on Sunday afternoon as usual).

BTW the Catholics had nothing to do with that prison.

Subject: RE: BS: Pope resigns
From: Joe Offer
Date: 12 Feb 13 - 07:53 PM

I guess we have a difference of opinion, Michaelr. I'm am very proud that Barack Obama is our President. Can't speak quite as favorably of Benedict, but he seemed pretty good - of course, Benedict's situation was dire, while the aftermath of the Bush Administration was merely disastrous.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Pope resigns
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 12 Feb 13 - 07:55 PM

If you are Catholic it is of interest.
If you are not Catholic, Ho Hum.

That isn't the picture that emerges from this thread. Rather a lot of interest from people who are most decidedly not Catholic...

Subject: RE: BS: Pope resigns
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 12 Feb 13 - 08:12 PM

The single best thing a new Pope could do would be to use some of the Vatican's wealth to buy hundreds of millions of condoms and give them all away free to people in Africa. I'm not going to call any Pope a "good man" who refuses to proceed along that path. Until the day the Church desists from teaching that poverty is a virtue and from perpetuating ignorance and disease in those developing countries it has influence in, it will remain a far greater force for evil than for good.

Subject: RE: BS: Pope resigns
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 12 Feb 13 - 08:14 PM

To drift somewhat - can it be long before Queen Elizabeth follows suit?

Subject: RE: BS: Pope resigns
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 12 Feb 13 - 08:19 PM

MGoH:
If you are Catholic it is of interest.
If you are not Catholic, Ho Hum.

That isn't the picture that emerges from this thread. Rather a lot of interest from people who are most decidedly not Catholic...

It rather depends on your definition of 'Catholic'. I'm 'Church in Wales' (an anglican off-shoot) but I consider myself a Catholic (though not a Roman Catholic).
The creed to which I profess states that "I believe in one Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic church".

Although my church does not recognise the Pope as its religious leader, I will still pray that the Roman Catholic church gets suitable guidance in choosing a successor.

Subject: RE: BS: Pope resigns
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 12 Feb 13 - 08:24 PM

And remember also that membership in the Catholic Church is voluntary, as is obedience to church rules.

Hmmm. As a bald statement I suppose that's true, but all is not what it seems. As with some other major organised religions, your membership is not voluntary. You're signed up virtually as you leave the womb. I was a baptised Catholic before my umbilical stumpy bit had dropped off. From then on, parents/grannies/uncles/teachers/priests/community spend much of your childhood and adolescent years making sure you are, at best, going to find it bloody awkward to get out (even if you've managed to resist all the brainwashing). It's a damn sight easier just to go along with it. It swells the numbers the Catholic church claims to have under its wing (which is the main point of it, really), but t'ain't right, is it.

Subject: RE: BS: Pope resigns
From: Bill D
Date: 12 Feb 13 - 08:26 PM

".... can it be long before Queen Elizabeth follows suit?"

As soon a she breaks Victoria's record. What? 3 more years?

Subject: RE: BS: Pope resigns
From: catspaw49
Date: 12 Feb 13 - 08:40 PM

Ya' know, I was about to nominate Joe Offer for Pope. I'm kinda' tired of his sorry ass hangin' out around here. PLUS....He could do the job! He looks good(sorta')in funky hats, he has a lot of good, used, kneepads, he can sell to rookies, and he likes travelling. But now that Bill notes that the Queen might give up the reins in 3 years, maybe we should hold Joe back for that. He'd fir well in the role of Queen! I mean, well, ...............well you know what I mean.......................


Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: Pope resigns
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 12 Feb 13 - 08:51 PM

the Queen might give up the reins in 3 years

Reins? Reigns? Sheesh...

Subject: RE: BS: Pope resigns
From: GUEST,Blandiver
Date: 13 Feb 13 - 04:44 AM

I hear the next pope will be call Pope John Paul George Ringo the 1st.

(Very old NE Folk Joke - George Welsh? Quite probably!)

Subject: RE: BS: Pope resigns
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 13 Feb 13 - 05:28 AM

If I were a betting woman (which I'm not) I'd bet anything you like that the Queen will never, ever abdicate or 'resign'. Regarding those of us who are not Roman Catholics, it is nonetheless very important to me that a man who will have a major influence on the lives of many millions of people throughout the world should be selected extremely carefully and after long deliberation. It is, in fact, everybody's business.

Subject: RE: BS: Pope resigns
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 13 Feb 13 - 06:54 AM

But wouldn't you have said the same about the suggestion that the Pope would resign, Eliza?

I suspect that the odds you'd you'd get against Elizabeth abdicating would be a lot less favourable than you would have got. A couple of days ago.

Subject: RE: BS: Pope resigns
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 13 Feb 13 - 07:09 AM

Archbishop of Canterbury retires:

The Queen of the Netherlands retires.

The Pope retires.


I suppose speculation of who's next is quite reasonable.

Subject: RE: BS: Pope resigns
From: The Sandman
Date: 13 Feb 13 - 08:01 AM

joe offer said.A lot of people have misconceptions about the Catholic Church.
i presume he meant the roman catholic church, there are other catholic chrches other than the roman catholic one.
an amazing staetment from joe, which could be interpreted that he thinks the roman church to be the only catholic church,

Subject: RE: BS: Pope resigns
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 13 Feb 13 - 08:17 AM

I wouldn't have speculated about the possibility of the Pope resigning, McGrath, as I know very little about the procedures and precedents of the role of a Pontiff. But from what I've learned about our Queen and her life story, I'd say she'd sooner get a tattoo of 'I LUV PHIL' on her arm than abdicate!

Subject: RE: BS: Pope resigns
From: gnu
Date: 13 Feb 13 - 07:18 PM

So... come the end of the month... he will be... ex-Benedict?

Subject: RE: BS: Pope resigns
From: Bill D
Date: 13 Feb 13 - 07:56 PM

I saw that joke 'somewhere' this morning....

Subject: RE: BS: Pope resigns
From: gnu
Date: 14 Feb 13 - 07:05 AM

I heard it three times in an hour yesterday.

Subject: RE: BS: Pope resigns
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 14 Feb 13 - 07:31 AM

So... come the end of the month... he will be... ex-Benedict?
Posted in this thread @ 5:08 AM yesterday.

Subject: RE: BS: Pope resigns
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 16 Feb 13 - 09:38 AM

http://www.addictinginfo.org/2013/02/14/pope-allegedly-sought-immunity-for-abuse-crimes-just-before-resigning/

Subject: RE: BS: Pope resigns
From: gnu
Date: 17 Feb 13 - 06:47 AM

@ 5:08 AM yesterday I was not awake when I read that.