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Nailing your colours to the mast...
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Subject: RE: Nailing your colours to the mast... From: The Sandman Date: 03 Mar 13 - 01:31 PM " is no more a storm in a teacup within the context of this thread than is recollection of the Biafran conflict to" whose perpetuation you appear for some reason so peculiarly dedicated. poppycock. "As one club chairman said to a guest performer "We're paying you to sing, not to talk"! yet more poppycock, the answer to that is when they circumcised you mr chair they threw away the wrong bit[was the chairman legless?], when club chairmen starting getting jumped up notions and start telling performers what they should do IN PUBLIC, god help us all, club chairmen should know their place, sit quietly in their chair, and venture an opinion in the break ON A ONE TO ONE BASIS. That club chairman was clearly a power maniac/control freak. I had a similiar situation in a folk club at Bicester in oxford , when this BOOR told me off for telling a joke, we pay you to sing not to tell jokes, IF HE DID NOT LIKE ME TELLING ThE OCCASIONAL JOKE, that was related to the song he should have approached me quietly in the interval and made clear how he felt in a private chat. fortunately i have only met a few of these boors in folk clubs, most people are very pleasant. |
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Subject: RE: Nailing your colours to the mast... From: Tattie Bogle Date: 03 Mar 13 - 01:01 PM Performers can decide for themselves how much to say between songs or tunes: if they are going to wax political, then it should perhaps at least be vaguely relevant to what they are about to sing or play, and not just for them to get their own personal agenda aired in public. As one club chairman said to a guest performer "We're paying you to sing, not to talk"! |
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Subject: RE: Nailing your colours to the mast... From: MGM·Lion Date: 03 Mar 13 - 08:18 AM Cross posted ~~ that in response to your penultimate post, obviously. |
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Subject: RE: Nailing your colours to the mast... From: MGM·Lion Date: 03 Mar 13 - 08:16 AM It is NO SUCH THING, Dick. It is absolutely basic to the whole gravamen of this thread, as to what is appropriate within the setting of a musical occasion in the way of propaganda or politically tendentious matter. The Frank occasion provides a particularly specific example of behaviour which most of us appear to consider inappropriate, so is no more a storm in a teacup within the context of this thread than is recollection of the Biafran conflict to whose perpetuation you appear for some reason so peculiarly dedicated. ~M~ |
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Subject: RE: Nailing your colours to the mast... From: The Sandman Date: 03 Mar 13 - 08:13 AM my position is this, while i would not choose to harangue an audience its ok if someone else wants to do it, if people dont like it they can harngue the performer back or leave., its about time there was a bit more action and reaction in folk clubs. the only thing in my opinion that is not acceptable is racially abusing someone and I have seen that happen [an anti french tirade], and the performer is still playing folk clubs. |
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Subject: RE: Nailing your colours to the mast... From: The Sandman Date: 03 Mar 13 - 08:03 AM i agree with you tattie, but i am sure you will agree with me that they have the right to do it. Johny j, my remarks ABOUT BLAND AND INOFFENSIVE were not aimed at you, but at Don t and MGM. DON T, Francks actions 50 years ago, have cuased one person to mention in passing the biafran war, this has reminded many people about that subject, therefore Franck has achieved one of his objectives, he undoubtedly wanted and would have been pleased if people were talking about that war 50years later , now fofeck sake give Franck a break. this business of Franck supposedly verbally attacking an audience 50 years ago is storm in a teacup. |
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Subject: RE: Nailing your colours to the mast... From: Tattie Bogle Date: 03 Mar 13 - 06:52 AM The thing is too that when performers do decide to highlight - from the stage - some social or topical issue, they expect rapturous applause and confirmation from the audience that "of course" we all agree with the view expressed. Well sorry, if I don't agree, I don't applaud. I have seen some audiences vote with their feet for the door when there was too much pontificating too. |
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Subject: RE: Nailing your colours to the mast... From: Johnny J Date: 03 Mar 13 - 06:43 AM Oops, "inoffensive"... I meant to say. |
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Subject: RE: Nailing your colours to the mast... From: Johnny J Date: 03 Mar 13 - 06:40 AM "If people want bland, inoffensive performers on the folk scene , then god help the folk scene." It's surely not necessarily all about what the audiences(the people) want but what the performers want to do or feel confident and comfortable enough to talk about... If your main business is playing the fiddle, accordion, or even the concertina either solo or in a band, then you are not necessarily going to be that concerned with promoting your views on political and social situations. You may, of course, choose to do this elsewhere or help "the cause" by playing benefit concerts etc or as a supporting role to someone who more actively engaged in this process. Also, you might even be a singer specialising in sea shanties or something along these lines and you may not consider it your place to comment on certain matters although you may wish to mention "fishing quotas", "cod shortages", working conditions at sea and so. However, you would probably have less interest in many other political topics including distant wars and so on. On the other hand, if songs about political and social issues are "your bag", then fair enough. I was in no way suggesting that performers should be "bland or innofensive" but only that they shouldn't be expected to speak out about every topical subject which happens to be in the news. The same would apply to less sensitive(or more sensitive depending on your point of view)subjects, i.e. you don't have to always crack jokes about horse meat in hamburgers and so on. |
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Subject: RE: Nailing your colours to the mast... From: Don(Wyziwyg)T Date: 03 Mar 13 - 06:23 AM ""I am saying that if people feel strongly about something they should be able to speak their mind, Franck may not have put it across in the best way, but by his action we are now talking and thinking about the Biafran war 50 years later."" With respect Dick, we are not talking about Biafra. We are discussing your incomprehensible stance on the subject of a performer so far forgetting his manners as to accuse, castigate and belittle his audience, for their (according to him) inaction on a situation which was nothing to do with his presence at a gig for which he was being paid. As I said earlier, highlighting the situation in a song would have been fine, and probably appreciated. I know a performer who has written a song about Darfur, which has achieved the desired end by mking people think about the situation. His audiences went home talking about the situation in Darfur, rather than about the way they had been attacked. Don T. |
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Subject: RE: Nailing your colours to the mast... From: The Sandman Date: 03 Mar 13 - 05:11 AM so to get back to the OPS ORIGINAL QUESTION , THE ANSWER IS YES , BUT IT DEPENDS HOW IT IS DONE ,SOME OF THE BEST POINTS CAN BE MADE THROUGH HUMOUR. |
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Subject: RE: Nailing your colours to the mast... From: The Sandman Date: 03 Mar 13 - 05:09 AM I did not say that everything would be ok,. I am saying that if people feel strongly about something they should be able to speak their mind, Franck may not have put it across in the best way, but by his action we are now talking and thinking about the Biafran war 50 years later. I bet Franck was quite young at the time and possibly not all that experienced as a performer, I doubt if Pete.Seeger or MacColl would harangue his audience., but they get their point across in a more subtle manner. I would agree that harnguing an audience is not something i would do, but I believe every performer has a right to talk and sing about matters they fell strongly about, the skilled performer can do it without haranguing an audience. If people want bland, inoffensive performers on the folk scene , then god help the folk scene. |
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Subject: RE: Nailing your colours to the mast... From: MGM·Lion Date: 03 Mar 13 - 12:25 AM Nothing silly about that, Dick; except the whole concept that everything will be OK if you just get out after the guy has said whatever he did, so that way you can pretend he never said it at all? Stop digging, Dick. |
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Subject: RE: Nailing your colours to the mast... From: The Sandman Date: 02 Mar 13 - 08:09 PM I agree with Jim," any singer feels they want to pass over the choice is theirs/ ours". THOSE WHO DO NOT LIKE WHAT A PERFORMER SAYS CAN LEAVE THE GIG, sorry michael cannot see anything silly about that. |
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Subject: RE: Nailing your colours to the mast... From: MGM·Lion Date: 02 Mar 13 - 06:50 PM "Jackson Franck is be criticised for something he said at a gig fifty years ago by people who were not even at the gig, give the fellow a break, he cant answer back," .,,.,.., It is well over 200 years since, to take one obvious example, Marie Antoinette declared that the French poor who could not afford bread should eat cake instead. Does the lapse of time make it any the less idiotic a riposte, Dick? She lost her head over it, so certainly can't answer back ~~ but then who can years later anyhow? So are all foolish remarks to be buried for ever? What a loss that would be. Give it up, Dick. You really have lost it in this thread and are just making yourself look silly. Go on like this, and Catters in the 23rd Century will be quoting Dick's ne'er-to-be-forgotten posts from 200 years ago & falling about at the recollection. 〠 ☺ 〠 ☺ 〠 ☺ 〠 |
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Subject: RE: Nailing your colours to the mast... From: EBarnacle Date: 02 Mar 13 - 03:53 PM Going back to the citation about Washington's arrival in New York, I found this report: James Riker, "'Evacuation day,' 1783, Its Many Stirring Events: With Recollections of Czpt. John Van Arsdale (printed for the author, 1883), 14 - 18. "The city's excitement turned to anger when they saw the Union Jack on the flagpole, and their anger became rage when they realized that the British had nailed their flag in place and greased the pole. After a few men tried unsuccessfully to scale the pole ande remove the offending symbol a call went out to gather saws wood, and nails. Cleats were affixed to the pole, and a young sailor started to climb, but before he got too far, a ladder arrived, which he used to reach the top, tear down the British flag, and replace it with America's colors, resulting in shouts of joy and a thirteen-gun salute." [punctuation not mine.] |
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Subject: RE: Nailing your colours to the mast... From: Jim Carroll Date: 02 Mar 13 - 03:24 PM "If any of us were saying that singers should be discouraged from singing those songs, your comment might have some point." That has been said here and has been a constant complaint throughout my half century in the revival - from some quarters anyway.. "why should their political/social opinions have to be placed before the public during the performing or listening experience." Whatever the expectancy of the audiences, the choice of material has to be the performers', his/her job is, as far as I'm concerned, to have done enough preparatory work to give a presentable performance and to have understood and been in touch with the song to pass it on to the listeners. If the song falls flat because a singer only feels he/she "should" sing it, then that's reprehensible, but that can apply to any type of song. Is it a problem - some of the most passionate singing I've ever hears was on the Aldermaston Marches, or during the miner's strike, or at the anti-Vietnam War concerts - likewise, one of the most electric audience responses I ever witnessed was at the N.F.T. screening of 'The Killing Fields' closely followed by the premier of 'Under Fire'. "Entertainment" is an odd word; I'm entertained by John Grisham and Val MacDairmid, but I'm also entertained by Steinbeck and Hardy. I was highly entertained by 'The Hobbit' over Christmas, and I expect to be thoroughly gob-smacked by 'Mia Maxima Culpa' and 'No' next week. I get as much pleasure learning the songs by lifting the corner to see what they bring with them as I do singing and listening to them. You do the best you can in passing the songs over, but what is passed over to an audience is (hopefully) what I, or any other singer feels they want to pass over - the choice is theirs/ours. Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: Nailing your colours to the mast... From: The Sandman Date: 02 Mar 13 - 02:41 PM Jackson Franck is be criticised for something he said at a gig fifty years ago by people who were not even at the gig, give the fellow a break, he cant answer back, Francks most famous song was recorded by paul simon, wizz jones, bert jansch. One thing he has done is got people on this thread thinking about the Biafran war,so that is a positive. perhaps, Don, he thought the Biafran war was more important than his career. furthermore I think you make a mistake calling someone not intelligent, on the basis of one hearsay statement from 50 years ago, it seems he cared passionately about an issue, I respect that a lot of folk performers today only care about networking and promoting themselves. Vin Garbutt has been criticised for having certain views on abortion, they are not views I share, but he has aright to make those views and even harangue people should he so wish, if you dont like it leave the gig. |
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Subject: RE: Nailing your colours to the mast... From: Don(Wyziwyg)T Date: 02 Mar 13 - 07:02 AM ""people are the way they are as a result of things that have happened to them, therefore to understand Jackson C fRANK , IT IS IMPORTANT TO KNOW SOMETHING ABOUT HIS LIFE, do you understand this Michael or is that confusing for you."" What attention to the things that had happened in the lives of his audience did Frank give, before deciding that he had a right to harangue them for their inaction in respect of a situation that most of them knew little or nothing about, and for which none of them bore any responsibility. Singing a song highlighting the tragedy of Biafra was fine. Breaking off in the middle to harangue the audience was not! NO ARGUMENT, it simply WAS NOT!. Maybe fool is slightly too strong, but it wasn't exactly the action of an intelligent man who intends to pursue a career, to send an audience home feeling either bad about themselves, or mad at him. A very good way to resign! Don T. |
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Subject: RE: Nailing your colours to the mast... From: Don(Wyziwyg)T Date: 02 Mar 13 - 06:42 AM ""God knows, the revival has become anodyne enough through singers being made feel uncomfortable by singing certain types of song, without erecting yet another hurdle."" If any of us were saying that singers should be discouraged from singing those songs, your comment might have some point. Since the responses are based in a belief that singers should not be required or expected to sing those songs, it does not. Making special cases an argument for a generalisation works both ways. Audiences for Ewan McColl, Pete Seeger and later Billy Bragg, were, and are quite aware that a program of political comment was and is assured. They went in the full knowledge of that fact, to listen to that program. A folk club organiser deciding to book McColl or Bragg should, if he knows his job, be aware of that and if his members don't like political content, he should have the sense, either to change his mind, or to find something else to do with his spare time. Don T. |
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Subject: RE: Nailing your colours to the mast... From: Doug Chadwick Date: 02 Mar 13 - 05:43 AM ……nailing |
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Subject: RE: Nailing your colours to the mast... From: Doug Chadwick Date: 02 Mar 13 - 05:34 AM You have to have mining, fishing, travelling in the blood. My parents were teacher and insurance man, so what hope have I got? At any folk gathering I have been to, retired teachers tend to be well represented and all will sing songs about mining, fishing and travelling. I know a retired librarian and someone who worked in an accounts department, both of whom write songs about trawlers. I suppose the same must apply about politics. Just because someone sings a song about the hard working conditions of times gone by doesn't mean that they are nailing your colours to the mast as fighters for social equality. They may well be bourgeois capitalists, content to live of the backs of others. DC |
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Subject: RE: Nailing your colours to the mast... From: Tattie Bogle Date: 02 Mar 13 - 05:00 AM P.S. add to that (tongue in cheek again) that you can't possibly sing folk songs properly if you didn't come from a tough background. You have to have mining, fishing, travelling in the blood. My parents were teacher and insurance man, so what hope have I got? |
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Subject: RE: Nailing your colours to the mast... From: Tattie Bogle Date: 02 Mar 13 - 04:55 AM I also agree with the original post, tho' I feel some other posters here have missed some of the point he was making. My understanding of what he was saying is that there is now an expectation that folk musicians are under some sort of obligation to declare their political views publicly, whether they wish to or not. There is a sort of implication that if you don't do this, you must be incredibly shallow, unfeeling, naive, etc, and I do not agree with this view at all. In Scotland at present ( I'm being a bit tongue in cheek here!) this would of course include being well to the left of centre ( aren 't all folkies?) and definitely pro-independence. And it doesn't just extend to singing about it or pontificating about it on stage, it gets you writing long letters or " pieces" for national( regional?) newspapers. We even have the situation on the other forum that the OP referred to of people declaring other folks' politics for them! |
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Subject: RE: Nailing your colours to the mast... From: GUEST,Johnny j Date: 02 Mar 13 - 03:28 AM Sorry Jim. Cross posted. |
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Subject: RE: Nailing your colours to the mast... From: GUEST,Johnny J Date: 02 Mar 13 - 03:25 AM Aha. Good point although many may disagree. However, it does seem to be the politicians and chattering classes who are making the most fuss about it all. |
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Subject: RE: Nailing your colours to the mast... From: Jim Carroll Date: 02 Mar 13 - 03:22 AM Off topic, but I think related to an extent. "I still feel that many topical songs have a very short half-life" Since working on Irish songs I have been introduced to an aspect of the tradition that I believe to have been very much neglected by researchers - that of local songs. This area (West Clare) has been extremely rich in traditional songs that were to be found in the national and international repertoire, particularly Child ballads. These were collected assiduously by the late Tom Munnelly, who was generous enough to introduce us to many of his singers. Alongside these were a large number of locally made songs, mainly anonymous, which dealt with local events and people, drownings, murders, local amenities like the West Clare Railway, political and military skirmishes during the War of independence..... even one song about a well respected priest moving on to another parish. Because of their local nature many didn't enter into the national repertoire and, after the event, disappeared completely; in some cases we have no more than a report of their existence. It is because of these songs that I am sceptical of claims of some to have discovered the origins of our traditional songs as being broadsides. People in both Britain and Ireland have, I believe, always made songs on subjects that have interested them which the have felt worthy of creation and circulation, this very much includes political subjects and events. We know this to be true in Ireland, and among the Travelling communities, but I am not sure that those researching in other parts of the British Isles have paid the same attention to this shadow repertoire simply because this particular genre of songs did not fit into the recognised traditional repertoires. I know that this is not the case in the U.S. - just been doing work on the magnificent album of West Virginian songs, 'Virginia Traditions', issued by the Blue Ridge institute of Ferrum College. Sorry for the interruption. Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: Nailing your colours to the mast... From: Doug Chadwick Date: 02 Mar 13 - 02:48 AM Perhaps the lack of involvement by musicians and singers in the forthcoming referendum on Scottish Independence is a political statement in itself. Although the SNP and the odd film star living in tax exile make a lot of noise, does the rest of Scotland really care? DC |
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Subject: RE: Nailing your colours to the mast... From: Charley Noble Date: 01 Mar 13 - 09:57 PM Jim- Not to worry. This topic is far more complex than my cryptic post. No, I still feel that many topical songs have a very short half-life but others endure because they are well crafted songs as well. Those you mentioned certainly have endured. But 90% or more don't survive the event, which doesn't mean that they shouldn't have been sung but that the composers should not be surprised that their songs didn't endure. Who sings "The Ballad of Sherman Wu" nowadays? Cheerily, Charley Noble, composer of extinct topical songs |
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Subject: RE: Nailing your colours to the mast... From: Mysha Date: 01 Mar 13 - 02:57 PM Hi, It would seem to me that ships that had their colours nailed to the mast (Hm, seems like a rather American expression, but I'll ask my colleagues.) would stand out more than the ships that silently floated away from the war zone, or simply played raft until the fighting stopped. The audience might get the impression that in pitched battle, it was normal behaviour for a captain to have his signals nailed to the mast, as the reports about Duncan and Nelson would be the most prominent, and their signals were nailed to the mast. The audience might also get the impression that in a battle of social opinion a folk singer always takes part by singing songs. After all, they're likely to only see and hear a folk singer in the news when there's a demonstration or rally, and they will only know that it's a folks singer from the singing, and this will also be how the folk singer is reported as it makes for more attractive reports. The other 99,99% of captains and folk singers probably don't, but that don't make good story, and so doesn't educate the people. Still, as this is a music thread: Are there songs about the subject? Bye Mysha |
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Subject: RE: Nailing your colours to the mast... From: MGM·Lion Date: 01 Mar 13 - 02:50 PM You're a nice fellow, Dick, and a very good singer. But you have your off-moments like everybody, and you are talking a whole load of silliness on this one. Do you really think one cannot regard something a person says as misguided unless one knows his entire biography, medical history, lifelong traumas? Come off it, do. Your arguments here are of much the same validity as "Hitler always loved dogs". Can you really not see that? Luvya just the same ~~ MtheLimpLettuce Apologies for breach of Godwin's Law. |
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Subject: RE: Nailing your colours to the mast... From: Jim Carroll Date: 01 Mar 13 - 11:50 AM Charlie - apologies, I realise that some of those songs were on my list were contemporary rather than topical Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: Nailing your colours to the mast... From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 01 Mar 13 - 11:12 AM That last post of mine related to MtheGM's freeing to the war as "as an undesirable political situation in a far part of the world." Reminiscent of Neville Chamberlain's words in relation to Czechoslovakia - "a quarrel in a far-away country between people of whom we know nothing." |
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Subject: RE: Nailing your colours to the mast... From: breezy Date: 01 Mar 13 - 11:11 AM Limp lettuce . jack Crawford nailed the colours |
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Subject: RE: Nailing your colours to the mast... From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 01 Mar 13 - 11:05 AM The genocidal war on Biafra was very much a proper concern for people in Britain. THe British government was actively supporting the Nigerian regime in waging it, and doing its best to limit attempts to break the food blockade which caused the death of up to 2 million civilians. |
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Subject: RE: Nailing your colours to the mast... From: Jim Carroll Date: 01 Mar 13 - 10:41 AM "My quote, but not my assumption either, Jim" Thanks Will, Sorry for the misunderstanding. "Of course the half-life of even a good topical song is fairly short." You mean like Shoals of Herring, Manchester Rambler, Dirty Old Town, Freeborn Man, Willie McBride, So Long, It's Been Good To Know You, We Shall Overcome, Pastures of Plenty.......? Have just re-started singing after thirty-odd years and am staggered at the interest shown by people who weren't even born when some of them were made - somebody asked me last night "what's a hippy or a beatnik?" and another asked me for the words of 'The Ballad of Sharpville' - very heartning. Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: Nailing your colours to the mast... From: Will Fly Date: 01 Mar 13 - 09:50 AM "the assumption that folk singers should sing about current politics just because they're folk singers." My quote, but not my assumption either, Jim - just reiterating the point made by the OP. |
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Subject: RE: Nailing your colours to the mast... From: The Sandman Date: 01 Mar 13 - 08:15 AM To be attacked by MGM is similiar to being lambasted by a limp lettuce. |
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Subject: RE: Nailing your colours to the mast... From: Charley Noble Date: 01 Mar 13 - 08:10 AM Of course the half-life of even a good topical song is fairly short. Charley Noble, neither for or against topical songs |
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Subject: RE: Nailing your colours to the mast... From: Jim Carroll Date: 01 Mar 13 - 08:00 AM "no such songs to be sung more than 100 years old maybe?" Sorry - should read ..... "unless they were more than 100 years old". Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: Nailing your colours to the mast... From: Jim Carroll Date: 01 Mar 13 - 07:56 AM "they may think that it might affect their career(s) in that they will receive fewer bookings" You mean 'censorship for their own good - come ooooon!! Whatever the Critics, MacColl and Seeger and others of that ilk might have been accused of, it certainly wasn't of not nailing their colours to the mast, if they were happy to let their political inclinations be known and to openly express them in song - it ends there; no club prepared to books them has any right to interfere with their choice of material - if you don't like what they do, don't book 'em - they are/were creative and interpretive artists, not juke boxes. If the organisers feel that booking such people might harm the club – again, don't book 'em. "But the denunciation of one's audience, in speech" Totally agree - but have already pointed this out to be a not-very-common occurrence being used here to prove a generality. I've only ever seen it happen once before; at a CND concert in Camden Town Hall, when a very well known American singer/songwriter harangued his audience for their opposition to nuclear weapons. "I just can't begin to understand what this Frank person thought that Biafra had to do with his audience in any way whatsoever" Can't you really, how odd! I'd have thought it was a subject that concerned every sentient human being and was well worthy of being brought to the attention of as many people as possible, an any shape or form. Would your not understanding the expression of the horrors of war, Irish and Scottish independence, opposition to the enclosures (heard Harry Cox do that a lot), to the effect of class divisions on choosing suitors (Harry again), to conditions in the mines, mills, going to sea, public hangings, law breaking to feed starving families..... all subjects of songs? Walter Pardon sang a number of family songs on the re-formation of the Agricultural Workers Union in East Anglia - were they no-go areas too? Where do you stand on Guthrie songs like Tom Joad, or Plane Crash at Los Gatos, or Jesus Christ? To what extent and to how far back does your "not understanding" go, I wonder; perhaps singing political songs should come with a cut-off point - no such songs to be sung more than 100 years old maybe? I'm often curious how American Civil Rights songs feature in discussions like these - personally I never think of that period without remembering 'Back of the Bus' or 'Birmingham Sunday'. I'm quite sure these songs upset the rednecks who were still stringing up blacks, bombing churches and beating up would-be voters - again, all subjects of political songs. I have heard the argument for restricting clubs to just traditional material, but I have always agreed totally with MacColl's argument that confining the revival to the past turns them into museums. Unless that is what you wish to do, you have to accept any subject that concerns singers is fair game and to act otherwise is censorship. Will: "the assumption that folk singers should sing about current politics just because they're folk singers." Something else I've very rarely encountered, certainly not since the 'flower power' days when 'peace' was probably the most meaningless word in the English language. Lack of involvement for me is one of the common features of much singing today, irrespective of type of song, style rather than content seems to be very much the order of the day as far as I can see. Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: Nailing your colours to the mast... From: The Sandman Date: 01 Mar 13 - 07:39 AM Peter Bellamy, was the son of a FASCIST who was interred during the second world war, that does not mean that Peter was a fascist, but his child hood and early environment and the things that happened to him in his life have to play a part in his character, and to some extent his opinions views etc etc, that was my point about Frank. people are the way they are as a result of things that have happened to them, therefore to understand Jackson C fRANK , IT IS IMPORTANT TO KNOW SOMETHING ABOUT HIS LIFE, do you understand this Michael or is that confusing for you. |
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Subject: RE: Nailing your colours to the mast... From: The Sandman Date: 01 Mar 13 - 07:32 AM exactly martin, that was my point in the previous post., the same people would deny a fascist to put their political point., If a fascist did make his point without using racist words,I would try and counter his argument and if that was not feasible I would quietly leave the audience, now MGM, quote and in Dick's odd attack on me for not knowing this, as if I should have had more respect for the idiotic opinions expressed if I had known, seems to me an example of the same sort of confused thinking as Frank's own on that occasion. this statement tells me a lot about you Michael, you do not seem to realise that people are the way that they are because of what has happened to them in their life, this is a an analysis that Marxists who you attempt to ridicule] often use and they are correct, does it not occur to you, you booby[ to use one of your own phrases] that Frank may have wanted to right injustice, because he had suffered injustice himself, people that come from privileged back grounds only occasionally become aware of others suffering and injustice, because they are sometimes unaware. Michael it is you that suffers from confused thinking, you are happy for people to sing songs that endorse your political sentiments that praise the establishment, but you do not like it when someone makes a political statement , that you do not like , you then call them idiotic. if someone does not like something a performer says , then the only answer if one feels strongly about it is is vote with your feet |
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Subject: RE: Nailing your colours to the mast... From: MartinRyan Date: 01 Mar 13 - 07:02 AM Surely the real problem, around here, is that when people look for singers to "nail their colours to the mast" they actually mean "nail their colours to MY mast". Regards |
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Subject: RE: Nailing your colours to the mast... From: Will Fly Date: 01 Mar 13 - 06:58 AM Jim, I don't think we're talking about censorship of any kind here - quite the opposite: the assumption that folk singers should sing about current politics just because they're folk singers. Johnny quoted the "lack of involvement" of singers in the debate on Scottish independence - as though being Scots and being a singer implies that you must sing about it. I simply agree with his conclusions. |
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Subject: RE: Nailing your colours to the mast... From: MGM·Lion Date: 01 Mar 13 - 06:26 AM Jim ~~ I don't think anyone is objecting to the singing of songs representative of one's opinions. But the denunciation of one's audience, in speech, in the middle of a gig, for not having done anything positive against what the singer regards as an undesirable political situation in a far part of the world, is not in any way comparable to that, SFAICS. I just can't begin to understand what this Frank person thought that Biafra had to do with his audience in any way whatsoever. The fact that he had had misfortunes in his life seems quite irrelevant to me ~~ and in Dick's odd attack on me for not knowing this, as if I should have had more respect for the idiotic opinions expressed if I had known, seems to me an example of the same sort of confused thinking as Frank's own on that occasion. ~M~ |
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Subject: RE: Nailing your colours to the mast... From: Johnny J Date: 01 Mar 13 - 06:22 AM Of course, it can be suggested that many performers feel reluctant to voice their opinions in song or otherwise because of type of scenario to which Jim has described... i.e. they may think that it might affect their career(s) in that they will receive fewer bookings or deter audiences in general. However, that's a decision for them and it depends how true they wish to be to themselves. I don't particularly like the idea of "Singers only" clubs or "no instruments, please" scenarios but I'm not in favour of entirely instrumental arrangements either although I appreciate that these do occur. It's only natural that people with similar interests will gravitate towards each other but I prefer it to happen on a "de facto" basis. There are obviously events primarily intended for the benefits of singers and others for musicians and all manner of things in between. However, most of us know whether we should be there or or not and what is usually expected. For example, we know that a singaround is not the same thing as a pipe band or a Strathspey and Reel Society! Most folk clubs will generally tend to cater for their regulars and members whatever their tastes may be but there's not necessarily rules set down in stone. Our own local folk club actually books a wide variety of acts ranging from unaccompanied singers, to topical singer songwriters, traditional(Some purely instrumental) bands, blues artists, guitar virtuosos etc. Just about every area at some stage or other. Fortunately, we are in a largish catchment area and it doesn't matter if we don't attract exactly the same audience each week. Some nights are obviously busier than others but we usually "break even" at the end of each year. However, there is a good argument that we could be "more focused", in which case we would encourage a more loyal and regular audience. However, this would mean narrowing our musical output. |
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Subject: RE: Nailing your colours to the mast... From: GUEST Date: 01 Mar 13 - 06:16 AM I refer everyone above to the life and works of Bruce "Utah" Phillips. |
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Subject: RE: Nailing your colours to the mast... From: Jim Carroll Date: 01 Mar 13 - 05:48 AM It's the easiest thing in the world to pick out a bad example to generalise - it really does work both ways. MacColl, Seeger and Critics Group members were forever being asked by clubs that booked them not to sing political songs because "we don't like that sort of stuff here" or "please don't bring instruments or sing contemporary songs because we're a traditional club". Singing songs of any type is simply passing on personal emotions, or expressing opinions or experiences - more or less what the tradition was all about. Expressing opinions in song is not in any way forcing them down the throat of an audience any more than declaring your enjoyment (or remembrance) of sex via a song is, though both might give offence in certain circumstances. God knows, the revival has become anodyne enough through singers being made feel uncomfortable by singing certain types of song, without erecting yet another hurdle. We lost some of our finest songs because of this sort of censorship. Enuff's enuff. I've said it before, political songs are among the oldest we have; see Thomas Wright's 'Political Songs of England From the reign of John to Edward II' - they've been around a little too long to start complaining now - or maybe is not so much their political nature but rather, the politics they are expressing that's the problem! Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: Nailing your colours to the mast... From: MGM·Lion Date: 01 Mar 13 - 05:07 AM I am actually a convinced atheist who has been baptised and confirmed in the Church of England although Jewish by origin and family. This does not impact in any way on my musical tastes or performances. The fact that Mr Frank has had great misfortunes does not invalidate the fact that the remark of his quoted above was, to my mind, a very foolish one. There is all the difference in the world between standing out insofar as possible against abuses being committed in one's own country and community, and becoming one of those professional denouncers of abuses anywhere in the world. I repeat, it was not the trade of people living in Europe to be compelled to do anything specific to stop the war in Biafra, and it was a gross impertinence of this Franks fellow to try to make them feel guilty for not having done so; particularly, as Will so cogently observes, when his trade at that moment was to provide them with a musical experience for which they had paid, and for which he was being paid in his turn. In doing so, he grossly and irresponsibly abused his position of having the attention of an audience who were there for quite another purpose. ~M~ |
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