BS: UK political parties for oblivion?

Subject: RE: BS: UK political parties for oblivion?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 23 Mar 13 - 09:47 AM

Apologies Richard - I miscounted...

Subject: RE: BS: UK political parties for oblivion?
From: Jim McLean
Date: 23 Mar 13 - 12:33 PM

All countries have national debts and Scotland will be no exception. However being independent, it would be more able to manage this. With it's proper share of oil and gas revenues, large exports of food and drink, no Trident, a choice whether to fight in illegal wars or not a better GDP rating than the UK ... the old argument that we're too poor has been demolished and accepted even by Cameron and Darling. They NO attack is based on fear, scare mongering and negativity. Free BMWs for all might not be on the cards but crawling after Cameron or Farage is not on. Imagine even having Boris Johnson for PM?

Subject: RE: BS: UK political parties for oblivion?
From: Allan Conn
Date: 24 Mar 13 - 05:17 AM

"Ah well, like Alan said, that's life. If it's so, good luck to Scots"

Mind though Jack what I was referring to was not the outcome of the said referendum. It was just the principle that the Scots, as do everyone else, have the right to self determination. They have the right to choose. The vast bulk of Scots hold to that principle as does the UK govt and all the major political parties. Musket doesn't - well that's life!

Subject: RE: BS: UK political parties for oblivion?
From: Allan Conn
Date: 24 Mar 13 - 05:21 AM

"I don`t think free BMW`s for all would be possible for some time!"

Though that holds for both choices. We ain't gonna get BMWs by staying within the union either!

Subject: RE: BS: UK political parties for oblivion?
From: GUEST,Musket sans cookie
Date: 24 Mar 13 - 06:18 AM

Musket does.
Actually
Which makes your blinkered stance all the more laughable.

Whether you want Boris Johnson or whether I want Alex Salmond is irrelevant. They both give good entertainment value. Thing is, only one of them is leading a whole set of counties on an adventure that is based on tradition and false hope rather than pragmatism.

As even Salmond wants defence to remain British, it is rather funny that Scotland will stop paying for Trident if the English, Welsh and Northern Irish people vote to get rid of it. Same as currency and economy. Unless you start a barter system, you either have to come up with a Micky McMouse currency or be linked to either Westminster or Frankfurt decisions. Decisions made in the interest of their voters.

Rather than dismiss the genuine concerns of many both sides of the border, why not launch your UDI manifesto on a website where more than just piss takers such as me will scrutinise them?

Oh and Akenaton. .. One advantage of Mudcat BS is that although I would turn my back on you in the pub or find a more respectable drinking pit, this forum is where humans and associated creatures can debate without the queasy unclean feeling you get when confronted with a bigot in the real world.

Subject: RE: BS: UK political parties for oblivion?
From: akenaton
Date: 24 Mar 13 - 06:22 AM

How do you manage when shaving in the morning Ian?

Subject: RE: BS: UK political parties for oblivion?
From: Allan Conn
Date: 24 Mar 13 - 06:42 AM

"I feel Th UK should have a say in things that affect The UK and find it to be arrogant in the extreme for a few counties to try and declare UDI"

The above statement, alongside the other attitudes shown, does not equate with the idea that the people of Scotland should have self determination. There would be no worth in a union where continued membership of the said union was forced on one people by the opinions of the other people in the said union. That is accepted within the UK despite your apparent reluctance.

Subject: RE: BS: UK political parties for oblivion?
From: GUEST
Date: 24 Mar 13 - 07:40 AM

A bit hypocritical from a govt which has more or less ignored the crimes of the financial institutions?

It makes sense to regulate immigration, but disguises the real problem which is systemic.

Subject: RE: BS: UK political parties for oblivion?
From: akenaton
Date: 24 Mar 13 - 11:21 AM

Sorry John, that post was mine, I seem to be logged out most of the time.

Subject: RE: BS: UK political parties for oblivion?
From: GUEST,Musket sas cookie
Date: 24 Mar 13 - 02:02 PM

Even your cookie refuses to accept your bloody views... You have been logged out of most peoples' thinking since showing your true colours, and they ain't pink. I see an ugly bugger when I shave, but an ugly bugger who is at peace with himself. And others.

Of course any part of any country can look for self determination. I originate from an enclave within The People's Republic of Bolsover, but when your rationale is an historic border set up by the Romans and set aside 500 ish years ago, it is a bit silly saying the reasons for drawing the line in the sand are based on 21st century economics and politics. There are many who don't feel enfranchised by a government. We haven't ever had a Tory MP where I come from (or councillor for that matter) and the part of Surrey Mrs Musket comes from would set fire to any Labour would be knocking on their door.

Is self determination about realising the needs of a Morningside lunching lady or a crackwhore in a Glasgow tenement? Or perish the thought, may there be the prospect of debate as to how to govern the place in the interest of all?

I'm not for stopping it, in fact the sums appear to me that the city props up Scotland, North Derbyshire and Bolsover, much to the disgust of our tame beast. After all, it's years since I was selling machinery into Ravenscraig, and even the shale shakers going into Aberdeen seem to be from USA straight to ffshore, financially speaking. No, I'll be better off, thanks.

Mind you, as I interfere in The NHS these days, the Scottish principle is far more to my liking, but the model fals apart the further from Edinburgh you go, sadly.

Subject: RE: BS: UK political parties for oblivion?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 24 Mar 13 - 02:10 PM

Regrettably the contributors to the present government seem to have as little intention of serving the common good or "interest of all" (rather lining the pockets of the rich and those charging interest) as they have devotion to the truth - compare Danny Alexander's words on ATOS before the election with those now - despite ATOS killing steadily increasing numbers of people.

Subject: RE: BS: UK political parties for oblivion?
From: GUEST,Musket sans cookie
Date: 24 Mar 13 - 03:57 PM

Fair comment Bridge. But is a gun a murderer?

The ATOS protocols and policies are to an agenda contracted on behalf of ministers. Oblivion is perhaps aspirational in the eyes of many? The fault you can lay firmly at the door of ATOS is the inability to distinguish between people made vulnerable through medical circumstances and those for whom benefits are a given. The latter is a smaller number than ministers and newspaper editors think..

Subject: RE: BS: UK political parties for oblivion?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 24 Mar 13 - 03:58 PM

Would Scottish independence mean the rest of us would be rid of Danny Alexander?

Looking at a map, the island looks a very unwieldy shape for a country. Dividing it more or less at the border looks pretty sensible. The advantantages to Scotland of the Union seem pretty shaky. Scandinavia seems to work pretty well with amicable political separation between the countries concerned.

Subject: RE: BS: UK political parties for oblivion?
From: akenaton
Date: 24 Mar 13 - 06:17 PM

" I see an ugly bugger when I shave, but an ugly bugger who is at peace with himself. And others."

Only one third right as usual.

Subject: RE: BS: UK political parties for oblivion?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 24 Mar 13 - 07:09 PM

Racist cunt Scameron is. Cuntservatives have for decades prevented the building of social housing.

Musket or whoever you were before going into hiding, a gun with a mind can be guilty of murder, and "Befehl ist Befehl" aka "Only following orders" is not a defence - or at least it was not at Nuremberg.

Subject: RE: BS: UK political parties for oblivion?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 24 Mar 13 - 11:49 PM

Perhaps "the People's Assembly" will provide a valid alternative to present Labour ("conservative-lite") party.

Subject: RE: BS: UK political parties for oblivion?
From: GUEST,Musket sans cookie
Date: 25 Mar 13 - 03:41 AM

Which dozy bugger keeps posting a link to yahoo in my name?

I suppose any solicitor could explain the difference between following orders and accepting an invitation to articulate and advocate a stance you may not agree with. After all, it is the job of a solicitor to do do. Likewise ATOS signed a contract to do this work.

Still, they seem to veer between incompetency and callousness so fulfilling the needs of ministers. ..

Sorry, can't ignore it. People's assembly? The older you get the dafter your posts. Shoot me before I get there. What's in it for me? Why would I vote for it? Or any other sane person for that matter.

Silly sod

Subject: RE: BS: UK political parties for oblivion?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 25 Mar 13 - 03:52 AM

Try to keep up whoever you were.

http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/comment/how-the-peoples-assembly-can-challenge-our-suffocating-political-consensus--and-why-

Subject: RE: BS: UK political parties for oblivion?
From: GUEST,Musket sans cookie
Date: 25 Mar 13 - 04:05 AM

Are you like me? Only read The Indescribablyboring because they aren't charging for their phone app?

Here, if The Financial Times was free, would you spout a different perspective?

Just a thought.

Subject: RE: BS: UK political parties for oblivion?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 25 Mar 13 - 04:55 AM

Signing as a GUEST is more or less an open invitation to impersonators using the same name.

Subject: RE: BS: UK political parties for oblivion?
From: GUEST,Musket sans cookie
Date: 25 Mar 13 - 05:24 AM

I know it is. And once I can get my bloody phone to retain cookies all will be well. it has extra security features enabled to allow seeing my secure emails, save me taking the work laptop around with me.

Instead it is the difference between being sat in the study or anywhere else in the world as to whether I am signed in or not.

Subject: RE: BS: UK political parties for oblivion?
From: Allan Conn
Date: 25 Mar 13 - 06:08 AM

"but when your rationale is an historic border set up by the Romans and set aside 500 ish years ago,"

Well of course the border wasn't set up by the Romans and neither was it set aside 500 years ago. The Scottish and English kingdoms were formed into a single kingdom just over 300 years ago. That is by the by though as the vast majority of the Scottish people still regard themselves as a national people and regard Scotland as a distinct country within the union. The border as such still exists. Some wish to remain in the union - others wish to end it. It is a democratic choice. As for me being logged out of most people's thinking that is just silly. The vast majority of Scots were in favour of the referendum. None of the major British political parties seek to deny the Scots the democratic choice as to what they want. It is you who is totally out of kilter.

Subject: RE: BS: UK political parties for oblivion?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 25 Mar 13 - 09:12 AM

Musket you are a fool. You clearly had no idea what the People's Assembly was. I enlightened you. You should thank me.

Subject: RE: BS: UK political parties for oblivion?
From: GUEST,Musket sans cookie
Date: 25 Mar 13 - 10:23 AM

Im a fool alright. A fool for humouring your original post. I did say that I read The Independent so not really needing enlightening, even if you break your professional code and not bother charging me for doing so.

I am fully aware of Mr Whittam Smith's crusade. Just didn't want to miss the opportunity to have a laugh. Your armchair socialism can be amusing at times.

Ok, back to tartan matters.   I was out by 200 years and I promise to take a loaded gun into the ante room this very second.   

Regarding giving people choice. You will find that the reason the vote was allowed was more to do with the Westlothian problem and its effect on England rather than Cameron & co having any regard for the wishes of Scottish voters. After all, how many tory votes are there in Scotland.   

Interesting that contributers above waffle on about student fees etc when such things only got through due to Scottish MP votes. When Bonaparte mentioned perfidious Albion, he wasn't wrong. Give or take 400 miles or so.

Subject: RE: BS: UK political parties for oblivion?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 25 Mar 13 - 11:09 AM

If you don't like the People's Assembly, how about Left Unity? Or is that off your radar too, plutocrat?

Subject: RE: BS: UK political parties for oblivion?
From: Musket
Date: 25 Mar 13 - 01:45 PM

Is plutocrat designed as an insult? Most people, having worked their bollocks off to have a comfortable retirement would say "job done" if they managed that position..

Left Unity? Howsabout Left....... my flat cap with my lamp and tallies when I left the pit? (I recall that your mask slipped once on another thread and questioned whether a mining engineer is "professional.") You see, some pigs being more equal than others fits well with your "I'm a professional, therefore you're not" attitude. As I said, your armchair socialism is somewhat amusing at times. All equal, eh brother?

No, I'm not a plutocrat. I looked it up just to be sure and it doesn't apply I'm afraid. Might have been in a small way before I sold up and buggered off, but no. I'm not a plutocrat. I've just taken a new challenge and as of next week, I can be despised under another title, as over paid senior public sector. Just think, you can sit next to Jeremy Hunt and lambast me. There's a thought....

zzzzzzzz

Subject: RE: BS: UK political parties for oblivion?
From: Jim McLean
Date: 25 Mar 13 - 04:39 PM

Sleep tight!

Subject: RE: BS: UK political parties for oblivion?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 25 Mar 13 - 05:08 PM

You really are stupid if you do not understand the word "professional".

Subject: RE: BS: UK political parties for oblivion?
From: Jim McLean
Date: 25 Mar 13 - 06:25 PM

Shshhhh, Richard, don't wake him up!

Subject: RE: BS: UK political parties for oblivion?
From: GUEST,Allan Conn
Date: 26 Mar 13 - 03:01 AM

"when such things only got through due to Scottish MP votes"

I agree with you there - it is an imperfect devolution settlement. No-one much would really argue with that. SNP members at Westminster don't vote on what are regarded as English only matters. So generally you can blame the main unionist parties for the discrepancies. Even at that I think there has only been something like two occasions where the Scottish Labour vote actually made any difference in Westminster - whilst in the same period when Labour were the main party in both parliaments they passed dozens (something like 60 odd)of measures at Westminster which should have been devolved matters. Independence of course would end any member from a Scottish constituency voting in Westminster. Even the most popular option in Scotland (ie devomax) which the unionist parties and British govt refused to have on the voting paper could well have gone towards sorting these anomalies. Again the SNP were happy to consider having that option on the paper. You shouldn't really expect me to defend a status quo I don't personally support!

Subject: RE: BS: UK political parties for oblivion?
From: GUEST,Allan Conn
Date: 26 Mar 13 - 03:31 AM

"I was out by 200 years and I promise to take a loaded gun into the ante room this very second."

Well if you're going to dismiss the idea of Scottish self determination by quoting facts and dates then one would expect them to be at least close or they are going to be picked up on. 200 years is a long time to add on when the true figure is just over 300. It's not like you were out by a decade or so. At the other end you were even further out by suggesting the Romans set up the border. Especially on the eastern half the border is nowhere near any Roman frontier. The early emerging kingdom of Alba came into being around half a millennium after the Romans had left and the what resembles the present border was more of an 11thC century event at earliest. Of course history affected how the numerous early Dark Age kingdoms came about - but the Scottish nation as such was forged more like three quarters of a millennium after the Romans had left.

Subject: RE: BS: UK political parties for oblivion?
From: GUEST,Musket sans cookie
Date: 26 Mar 13 - 06:04 AM

Too late. Wide awake and staring like an owl.

Bridge, the only time I have ever felt somewhat concerned by your outpourings was when you claimed mining wasn't a profession. Assuming soliciting is...

Just clashes wonderfully with your workers of the world arise bollocks.

Allan, just to be serious for a moment. Surely in the globalisation of commerce, the indifference to parochial concerns by the vast majority of people and the risk of being marginalised when smaller, the Scottish residents deserve a more balanced perspectivethan SNP and their agenda are supplying?

Replacing Westminster idiots with Leith idiots coupled with less influence on the value of currency, defence etc just seems to me a bad idea. As I said before, if it is s good thing for Scotland ergo it cannot be a good thing for The UK. If, and I mean if.. that is the case, then the argument for sel determination would include a UK wide vote.

Looking at the size of the Scottish public sector, I feel relieved that is a huge if....

Subject: RE: BS: UK political parties for oblivion?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 26 Mar 13 - 08:30 PM

FFS Musketballs - LOOK IT UP!

Subject: RE: BS: UK political parties for oblivion?
From: akenaton
Date: 27 Mar 13 - 03:34 AM

What in fuck is the benefit to Scotland in replacing Trident?
Or in spending our taxes supporting fanatical Jihadists in north Africa?

UK foreign policy is a crazy nightmare, we need to step back and decide on the most important course of action, not follow Blair's mantra of acting because "its just the right thing to do"

The views of the Scottish people are unlikely to be represented by a Westminster govt, we are two separate nations with very different political histories.

That being said, Mr Salmond must be honest, the rejection of nuclear weapons on Scottish soil and the refusal to offer up our young people in conflicts like Iraq and Libya will mean complete withdrawal from NATO and there is no point in pretending otherwise.

Subject: RE: BS: UK political parties for oblivion?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 27 Mar 13 - 04:50 AM

Meanwhile, the People's Assembly seems to be attracting support, the wolves are circling in the conservative party, no-one has a good word to say for the limp-dems (and who cares anyway, their only interest is in the case of a hung parliament) and the labour party is riven by its unspeakeable decision to support retrospective legislation against claimants and to override a Court of Appeal decision. UKIP continues to be a joke except to people who actually like nazi uniforms and a little Englander mentality.

WTF is there that anyone with conscience could support? Is "Left Unity" a serious prospect?

http://leftunity.org/

Subject: RE: BS: UK political parties for oblivion?
From: Musket
Date: 27 Mar 13 - 07:29 AM

OK. I bite.

I actually agree with all Bridge's withering remarks concerning the present political parties, to a point. I wouldn't dismiss Labour on the basis of one policy statement.

If there is scope for a left unity, then it can only be balanced by a right unity of sorts (UKIP?) to give voters a clear option. All three present parties have drifted to what they consider the middle ground, but in doing so make choice of government less clear. Notwithstanding the advent of "professional" politicians leading to risk averse debate coupled with the tories reaching out to their less palatable wing. Not that Milliband would ever reach out to socialists, perish the thought......

The problem with left vs right is that the left couldn't sustainably fund a social programme and the right wouldn't wish to.

That logic would have us all LibDems.. No, think again Musket.

I suppose there would be less chance of contentious legislation getting on the books if Scottish MPs no longer voted on matters not affecting Scotland?

UP THE SNP!!!!!!

(And right up without a paddle...)

Subject: RE: BS: UK political parties for oblivion?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 27 Mar 13 - 07:18 PM

Good heavens. Do I sense rapprochement?

IMHO the problem with that model is that Labour are at present not materially left of centre and arguably rid of centre (sorry Red Ed, but you disappoint me) whereas the Con-Dems are a lot right of centre, the conservatives alone very right of centre, and UKIP pretty much BNP-lite.

Socialist Labour Party and SWP etc are not effectively present in the model.

A left unity would give a clear alternative to the present right (and it seems to me very right) wing conservatives and coalition.   If viewed in that light it could leave Labour occupying the middle ground pretty much alone.

Subject: RE: BS: UK political parties for oblivion?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 27 Mar 13 - 07:50 PM

To drift a little, in response to Musket's comment that 'If there is scope for a left unity, then it can only be balanced by a right unity of sorts (UKIP?) to give voters a clear option'.

'Choice' in politics need not require a great divergence in left/right terms. There is plenty of room for disagreements about how to achieve shared views. The problem isn't really so much that all our parties compete for 'the centr ground' but rather that the centre ground has migrated rather too far to the right.

However it is fair to point out that pretty well all parties in Britain would count as left in US - or 'liberal' in their quaint local usage.

Subject: RE: BS: UK political parties for oblivion?
From: Musket
Date: 28 Mar 13 - 06:26 AM

I had fun in a bar in Jackson Wyoming a few years ago. A local was explaining how "commies" were taking over the world and the free world had to be ready to repel them. I asked him to describe a commie. He did. I said that therefore Tony Blair is a commie. it says something that he thought Blair and Thatcher were of the same party.

Left vs right isn't a fair divider these days as although we may say lack of choice, it can also be seen as the passage of time has given us a consensus. We risk mistaking incompetence for dogma.

Bridge's coalition of the right scenario does not quite fit as the LibDem element is no more than a prostitute nailing their flag to any mast to eak through their policies by stealth that they could never achieve by election. You could say that is how many other countries work and act as a brake on the more radical larger party in power. Problem is, I don't see exactly what they have helped modify? Too many government policies go against everything Liberals ever stood for, and indeed the present lot stood for in the past election.

Socialist Labour Party and SWP are not effectively present because they could never be effective. The electorate may watch Big Brother and seem fascinated by celebrity and red top newspapers, but overall, people take politics seriously enough to know that you cannot get elected by looking at one end of the swingometer. Hence neither they nor UKIP, BNP etc will ever amount to more than the odd frustration vote.

I don't think politics is dead just yet. It needs 50mg of adrenaline every five minutes as per guidance, but the heart is just about beating.

Subject: RE: BS: UK political parties for oblivion?
From: Stu
Date: 28 Mar 13 - 07:08 AM

The problem with UKIP is they are beginning to influence government policy, as announced by Cameron last week introducing his ludicrous immigration legislation. This is bad news, and the drift further into the politics of hate that started with the non-election of the tories looks to continue for some time; nasty, hateful little men in crap suits telling us we're a soft touch when it comes to accepting johnny foreigner in to take our jobs, homes and welfare.

Part of the problem of modern politics is democracy is conflated with capitalism and this makes socially responsible policies that don't generate income look like some sort of government-imposed idea designed to fleece those it's not aimed at of their tax quids. Ludicrous of course, but inevitable in a country where we are less citizens and more consumers (an explicit aim of Thatcherism) and we are less engaged in the welfare of society as a whole. The destruction of the NHS is a case in point, and one day we'll all wonder why we weren't rioting on the streets to save our societies most valued public service.

Subject: RE: BS: UK political parties for oblivion?
From: Stu
Date: 28 Mar 13 - 07:08 AM

The problem with UKIP is they are beginning to influence government policy, as announced by Cameron last week introducing his ludicrous immigration legislation. This is bad news, and the drift further into the politics of hate that started with the non-election of the tories looks to continue for some time; nasty, hateful little men in crap suits telling us we're a soft touch when it comes to accepting johnny foreigner in to take our jobs, homes and welfare.

Part of the problem of modern politics is democracy is conflated with capitalism and this makes socially responsible policies that don't generate income look like some sort of government-imposed idea designed to fleece those it's not aimed at of their tax quids. Ludicrous of course, but inevitable in a country where we are less citizens and more consumers (an explicit aim of Thatcherism) and we are less engaged in the welfare of society as a whole. The destruction of the NHS is a case in point, and one day we'll all wonder why we weren't rioting on the streets to save our societies most valued public service.

Subject: RE: BS: UK political parties for oblivion?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 28 Mar 13 - 07:21 AM

So right he said it twice!

Subject: RE: BS: UK political parties for oblivion?
From: Stu
Date: 28 Mar 13 - 07:46 AM

Not sure how that happened. Sorry for repeating myself!

Subject: RE: BS: UK political parties for oblivion?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 28 Mar 13 - 08:22 AM

"it says something that he thought Blair and Thatcher were of the same party."

Well, in many senses of the word he was quite right.

Subject: RE: BS: UK political parties for oblivion?
From: Allan Conn
Date: 28 Mar 13 - 06:19 PM

"then the argument for sel determination would include a UK wide vote."

A UK wide vote would not be Scottish self determination as Scottish voters only make up 9% or so of the UK electorate. You either believe in people's right to self determination or you don't. Luckily the UK does.

Subject: RE: BS: UK political parties for oblivion?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 28 Mar 13 - 10:23 PM

"Luckily the UK does"

Having learnt it the hard way...

I think there might be some case for an English referendum - not with any kind of veto on parts of the Disunited Kingdom separating if they wish, but on whether they wish them to remain. A vote in England on whether Northern Ireland should continue to be part of the Union would make some sense.

Subject: RE: BS: UK political parties for oblivion?
From: GUEST,Musket sans cookie
Date: 29 Mar 13 - 03:14 AM

That's the problem with self determination.

If Scotland would benefit or not by destroying the union cannot be discussed without at least wondering whether there would be any effect at all on those left.

So.. what price self determination for England if a vote by others affects the stability of the place?

Oh. I'm making an assumption England would be worse off. The evidence doesn't actually point to that, does it?

Subject: RE: BS: UK political parties for oblivion?
From: GUEST,Allan Conn
Date: 29 Mar 13 - 03:36 AM

I totally agree that England has the same right to self determination as anyone else does and in reality should England leave the union then sheer demographics would mean that the union would be at an end. However you're getting into a whole different ball game in the last sentence if the English are deciding who else should remain in or leave the union. Again the UK's govt's stance has been that the people of Northern Ireland can remain within the union as long as the majority of people there wish to do so. I can't imagine that stance is likely to change either by holding them to the union or expelling them from the union against their wishes.

Subject: RE: BS: UK political parties for oblivion?
From: Jim McLean
Date: 29 Mar 13 - 04:56 AM

It appears from the recent announcement from the BP consortium that there WILL be a second oil boom so the YES campaign was right.

Subject: RE: BS: UK political parties for oblivion?
From: Musket
Date: 29 Mar 13 - 06:24 AM

BP have been buying up land near Berwick upon Tweed. Seriously! (Source - The Week, w/c 4 March 2013.)

Just thought I'd point that out. If you are basing your economy on a multinational conglomerate, you are as daft as those in HM Treasury in Whitehall.

Anyway, what price democracy? Scotland may only be 9% of the population, but North Lincolnshire is less than 0.02%. Neither of us are big enough nor powerful enough to get our way unless we go it alone. And if we did go it alone, we'd see that percentage influence drop even further in the international arena.

be careful what you vote or, you might end up getting it....