BS: UK political parties for oblivion?

Subject: RE: BS: UK political parties for oblivion?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 29 Mar 13 - 08:38 AM

The case for maintaining the Union is much the same as the case would be for amalgamating the various Scandinavians nations into a Greater Sweden. It's not completely irrational, but not too persuasive.

Subject: RE: BS: UK political parties for oblivion?
From: Musket
Date: 29 Mar 13 - 08:59 AM

No problem with maintaining or not maintaining the union as such. I suppose, in the spirit of the thread, being the effectiveness and relevance of UK political parties, my point overall is that globalism in terms of where the wealth is generated is not well dealt with by dividing political influence ever smaller.

Sounds a bit federalist, I know. But being quite heavily involved in The NHS, and seeing how "self determination" through setting up foundation trusts and introducing "any willing provider" has had a disastrous effect on the quality of delivery, the adage "big is beautiful" can have its uses.

And before our friends point out the NHS structure north of the border, I would like to point out that Salmond is signed up to the same opening of markets as Westminster, and eventually he shall have to tell people that has to include NHS... It is a promise made at the G8.

Subject: RE: BS: UK political parties for oblivion?
From: akenaton
Date: 29 Mar 13 - 09:05 AM

I dont base my support for independence on being financially better off.
If we continue to think in these term then we really ARE terminally fucked.

Anybody who thinks that Western economies can be made prosperous again, are seriously deluded .....the resourses have all been stolen, the people all exploited, Capitalism has run its course for the developed nations. We were the lucky ones who hitched a lift on the last lifeboat as the Titanic sank.

Unfortunately our children and grandchildren are left thrashing about in the icy water.......but who cares eh?....Were going to get "Gay Marriage" and "human rights" for every bloodthirsty fanatic.

Time to think about how we can provide a purpose in life after "MONEY", for our kids....A little inspiration is required, something Ian knows nothing about, everything is measured in pounds and pense.

Subject: RE: BS: UK political parties for oblivion?
From: Jim McLean
Date: 29 Mar 13 - 09:42 AM

Money is very important to any natiion seeking self determination. But, more importantly, what is done with it. The economic argument against an independent Scotland has been demolished but total fiscal control is necessary to implement fairness for the Inhabitants of Scotland and the future of their children., free health care, free education, help with transport costs. ....   Scottish Indepence is not a William Wallace cry for "Freedom" or a glorification of Bannockburn ... it's about establishing a just Scotland which can get rid of Trident and Westminster cuts like the bedroom tax and for this we need to be financially sound and prove it to the Jeremiahs of the Unionist parties.

Subject: RE: BS: UK political parties for oblivion?
From: Jim McLean
Date: 29 Mar 13 - 10:26 AM

Have a wee look

True?

Subject: RE: BS: UK political parties for oblivion?
From: GUEST,Musket sans cookie
Date: 29 Mar 13 - 10:38 AM

Gay rights for every blood thirsty fanatic. ...

Dear Jim and Allan,

This person will be getting a vote.

Just thought I'd point that out.

Subject: RE: BS: UK political parties for oblivion?
From: GUEST
Date: 29 Mar 13 - 02:08 PM

Didn't the English educational system teach you how to read Ian?

Its quite simple really, instead of the UK govt addressing the issues affecting the lives of millions of our young people, we get the initiative on "gay marriage" and a whole raft of "rights" issues including the defence of one fella who wishes to rid the world of infidels......it's called a "liberal" distraction.

We need some completely new ideas on how to motivate our people, especially our young folks, and developing a pride in our nation is an excellent start. Great Britain never was "great"...Except at practicing piracy.

Subject: RE: BS: UK political parties for oblivion?
From: akenaton
Date: 29 Mar 13 - 02:12 PM

Sorry all....that was me...Ians friend! :0)

Subject: RE: BS: UK political parties for oblivion?
From: akenaton
Date: 29 Mar 13 - 02:19 PM

Jim....Cant get the video to open, i'll try later and get back to you...Ake

Subject: RE: BS: UK political parties for oblivion?
From: Musket
Date: 29 Mar 13 - 02:26 PM

Liberal distractions? Does that include the Lockerbie bomber in err.. a Scottish court?

Pride in your nation eh? Gay Pride marches? Do they count? Scotland has had a tradition in my lifetime of liberalism despite a rather odious sectarian heritage, especially in the central belt.

If young people give a stuff about nationalism, it would be as an excuse for venting steam, not cuddling the flag of St Andrew. Nationalism is an issue in many countries, and right wing tosh isn't going to light any "young" candle, unless it is a free download on Kindle.

Subject: RE: BS: UK political parties for oblivion?
From: Jim McLean
Date: 29 Mar 13 - 05:43 PM

Ake, it opens for me but here is the full URL. http://m.youtube.com/#/watch?v=8w4PoQbgUiA&desktop_uri=%2Fwatch%3Fv%3D8w4PoQbgUiA

Subject: RE: BS: UK political parties for oblivion?
From: Stu
Date: 30 Mar 13 - 05:38 AM

"Great Britain never was "great"...Except at practicing piracy."

Great Britain is a geographical term, not a political one.

Subject: RE: BS: UK political parties for oblivion?
From: GUEST,Allan Conn
Date: 30 Mar 13 - 05:47 AM

"Nationalism is an issue in many countries" You're probably going to baulk at this but your own views show "to me anyway" a rather strong nationalist stance towards the current British state. And it is a form of nationalism which seems to seek to deny other peoples (ie as in national peoples) the basic right of self determination. You seem to suggest that the current national borders are somehow inviolate whatever the wishes of the peoples within these borders may be. Also I'm sorry but that the idea that the wishes of a minority nation within a wider union to self determine their future path should be ignored in case it affects the majority nation within the said union smacks of colonialism. And it is totally out of kilter with both general Scottish opinion, as well as the UK govt's stance, and I imagine the vast bulk of English opinion too.

Obviously the UK govt wants to maintain the current UK. National states don't tend to like seeing great chunks of their territory depart. However I don't see what option they had other than to allow the referendum and argue their point! Had they denied the Scots the right to determine their future then it would only have greatly bolstered the nationalist cause within Scotland and would have made Scottish independence a more likely outcome.

Subject: RE: BS: UK political parties for oblivion?
From: GUEST,Allan Conn
Date: 30 Mar 13 - 05:56 AM

"Great Britain is a geographical term, not a political one"

Surely it is both? It certainly has a political usage. James VI of Scotland used it in a political sense when he succeeded to the English throne. Then in 1707 when the Scottish and England kingdoms ceased to exist as separate distinct kingdoms the new kingdom created was officially named Great Britain as stated in Article One of the Act of Union.

Subject: RE: BS: UK political parties for oblivion?
From: akenaton
Date: 30 Mar 13 - 08:32 AM

Don't blame the Tories altogether....The labour party in power encouraged unregulated immigration...." to make this country more competitive in the global economy"

Never ever forget these words, as they are code for what our govts really think about freedom, democracy, equality, etc.

I remember these days and how anyone who opposed these policies was branded a racist bigot on this forum.

Even me, a lifelong radical socialist, called names by "liberal" Quizlings!   Scotland....get on wi' ye!!

Subject: RE: BS: UK political parties for oblivion?
From: GUEST,Musket sans cookie
Date: 30 Mar 13 - 12:20 PM

My dear Akenaton. You are branded a racist bigot on the strength of what you post, not on the politics of others.

Allan. You detect wrong. Don't confuse a desire not to dissolve into factions with admiring the status quo. If anything I suppose I am a European at heart. A common market requires a common currency and a common currency requires further integration. That is why the euro is not quite delivering as it should. Far from being a UK nationalist or whatever you think I am, I find all nationalism repugnant at the moral level and increasingly irrelevant at the economic level.

We should celebrate the differences rather than promote our own. Yes Scotland does have an identity and so does Yorkshire. Surrey is surreal from where I come from and my Surrey born wife saw more in common with her background when she lived in Edinburgh than when she moved to Sheffield.

I was happy in Dublin, less so in Munich. Happy as pigs in poo here in North Lincolnshire. Moving further from each other makes little sense to me. Where reason fails, piss taking is the British way. Gawd bless her. ..

Subject: RE: BS: UK political parties for oblivion?
From: Jim McLean
Date: 30 Mar 13 - 01:52 PM

By comparing Yorkshire to Scotland Musket shows his total ignorance and hence his reason for "piss taking" as he calls it. This not piss taking, it has merely provided a showcase for his total puerile stupidity. Stop digging, Musket, and find yourself another hole.

Subject: RE: BS: UK political parties for oblivion?
From: GUEST,Allan Conn
Date: 31 Mar 13 - 12:34 AM

"find all nationalism repugnant at the moral level and increasingly irrelevant at the economic level."

Well if you find nationalism repugnant then why are so against Scots deciding whether they want to be continued to be ruled from Westminster or not? You say you are a European yet it bothers you that some people simply want Edinburgh to have its own voice at the European table. If you don't care about nationalism then why are so keen that Scots shouldn't get the chance to decide if they want to remain British nationals or not. Some people simply see Westminster as being the increasingly irrelevant and unnecessary tier of govt. There is absolutely no reason to think that the Scots and the English could only work together on a European level if the former is ruled from Westminster.

Your continual equating Scotland with either Yorkshire or Lincolnshire etc just doesn't fit. Lincolnshire is a county in England. The comparison for Scotland would be somewhere like Ayrshire - not the country of Scotland itself. You either don't understand how most Scots (whether they support independence or not) perceive and identify themselves or you don't care.

Subject: RE: BS: UK political parties for oblivion?
From: GUEST,Allan Conn
Date: 31 Mar 13 - 01:14 AM

"We should celebrate the differences rather than promote our own"

Why can we only celebrate the differences if we are ruled politically from Westminster? In my experience those (for example) in the Scottish folk music community on average veer towards the YES camp more than the Scottish population as a whole. They would also be, in my experience, more open to English or Welsh folk music than the Scottish population as a whole. So I just don't get your point there.

Plus to celebrate the differences we have to first recognise them. You are still equating Scotland with various English counties and not even recognising it as a distinct nation within the wider union. How is that celebrating anything?

Subject: RE: BS: UK political parties for oblivion?
From: GUEST,Musket sans cookie
Date: 31 Mar 13 - 03:51 AM

Lincolnshire is indeed a County but I never mentioned it. I don't live there or have any links there any more than Ayrshire.

Scotland is a country by tradition and history and so is Danelaw for that matter. Edinburgh having its own seat at the table sounds good in one breath but the loss of influence for such a small population, GDP etc is of concern. Assuming The EU allows entry. The days of plenty for small countries is over. Ireland infrastructure and Greek excess have been replaced with austerity.

If Scotland would be oil rich on its own, the cost of EU membership would go up. You can't have it all ways. North Lincolnshire is a collection of constituencies. Scotland is a collection of constituencies. England is etc etc. Any one set is less than the whole. The whole can influence on behalf of the set.

My view and as Scottish politicians reckon there are benefits in what you vote, I as any other UK resident have a legitimate view to air. I don't have to keep my fried Mars bar in my sporran to air it either Jim..

Subject: RE: BS: UK political parties for oblivion?
From: GUEST,Allan Conn
Date: 31 Mar 13 - 04:23 AM

"Then perhaps Salmond will give some overseas aid to North Lincolnshire to allow us to try a bit of self determination? Or any other parish for that matter."

The above was posted in your name. If it wasn't you who actually posted it then it makes no difference as in more recent posts you've used Yorkshire as the comparison. Whichever English county you use there is still not a comparison.

Likewise the idea that an independent Scotland would lose influence in Europe is a pretty iffy claim. At the moment we have no direct say at all and are represented by a govt who are not representative of the Scottish nation. To put it in perspective the UK has 29 votes in the European Council. Ireland has 7. Scotland has none. An independent Scotland would have 7 votes and Scots would be represented by people they actually voted for and who were acting in specifically Scottish interests. The rest of the UK would at worst lose 1 vote so overall our islands would have more influence and not less. Not necessarily a reason one would vote YES for but just shows the weakness of your statement.

Subject: RE: BS: UK political parties for oblivion?
From: GUEST,Allan Conn
Date: 31 Mar 13 - 04:29 AM

"Scotland is a country by tradition and history and so is Danelaw for that matter"

Just another silly anglocentric comparison. Scotland isn't equivalent to a former region of what became England. Scotland is equivalent to England itself. Both countries have long histories and developed into long term established European kingdoms where a sense of nationhood gradually developed. Scotland has its own comparisons to the Danelaw, or the earlier kingdoms of Wessex, Mercia etc. ie the likes of Pictland, Dalriada, Strathclyde etc

Subject: RE: BS: UK political parties for oblivion?
From: GUEST,Musket sans cookie
Date: 31 Mar 13 - 06:13 AM

You fell straight into it you silly bugger.

You ask me to respect Scotland as an identity then confuse North Lincolnshire with Lincolnshire. Two distinctly different places. One in the North the other in the Midlands.

Fits my point exactly. Geographical concerns and cultural concerns fit the vote but hard nosed economical considerations fit the outcome.

Anyway, I apologise for occasionally trying to inject reason. I promised to just take the piss. So long as you keep the place looking nice for when I visit on holiday and the value of my Edinburgh flat stays high, I have no complaints. I just hope the tenants will continue paying in sterling....

Subject: RE: BS: UK political parties for oblivion?
From: Allan Conn
Date: 01 Apr 13 - 03:04 AM

I make no claims as to knowing the intricacies of changing administrative areas througout England. Anymore than I'd expect every English person to know the difference between Roxburgshire, Roxburgh District, or the Borders Region etc as to where I live. That is not the point as I said whichever shire is used it is still no comparison to the Scottish nation.

As to supposed humour. Well none of that disguises the fact that you seem to claim to not be a nationalist yet come over as a type of Britsh Nationalist who would seek to deny the minority nations within the UK the right to determine for themselves whether they should be in the union or not.

You suggest we should celebrate the differences yet you don't recognise, or don't care, that Scots have on the whole a completely different identity as far s their nationality goes. Only something like 11% of Scots describe themselves as "Britsh not Scottish" or "more British than Scottish" and though the figures are not broken down, by experience I'd suggest that a fair share of this 11% refers to migrants from other parts of the UK. We of course have multiple identities including being European, British, Borderers or Kelsonians or whatever, and people feel these identities to different degrees, but the more principle identity as far as nationaility goes is Scottish. That is the same for those who wish to stay in the union as it is for those who wish to leave. That is a democratic choice for us to make. The fact that some bloke on the internet thinks we should be denied that democratic choice is neither here nor there.

Subject: RE: BS: UK political parties for oblivion?
From: GUEST,Musket sans cookie
Date: 01 Apr 13 - 03:46 AM

What differences? Is it the kilt? ginger hair?

If you find the bloke on the Internet who would deny you the choice, refer him to me if you don't mind. I would point out to him that there is a difference between denying a vote and hoping the vote denies narrow minded nationalism its day.

I welcome the vote. I think that Salmond is a protest vote that backfired and his ridiculous stances are an embarrassment. I wonder if his celtic tiger will be back from the vets in time for the final campaign? No matter what the outcome, you can look forward to his blaming the Scottish people when he loses or the malign influence of Westminster if he wins.

Hoots Mon!

Subject: RE: BS: UK political parties for oblivion?
From: Allan Conn
Date: 01 Apr 13 - 04:17 AM

You objected to the idea that the Scots, and only the Scots, should have a vote in the referendum. That is you objected to the fact that we should have self determination. That is you objected to the vote as it stands. It is all there within the thread.

Still depsite your opinions in regard to wishing to deny other people the right to self determination we do at least know that you are a great undiscovered comedy genius. Ginger! Haggis! Kilts! No playground stereotyping there.

Subject: RE: BS: UK political parties for oblivion?
From: GUEST,Musket sans cookie
Date: 01 Apr 13 - 04:27 AM

I object to not having a say in something that affects me, yes. It's called self determination. ..

If the UK isn't going to be affected then Salmold is selling you a pup.

Wait! I haven't got started on Glasgow alcoholism or Edinburgh heroin yet! Plenty of comedy there. Or just stick to ginger pubes, sporrans and deep fried curly wurly.

You tell me then. What is the difference between my stereotyping and your national identity assertion? Other than your sincerity versus my idle bemusement?