Origins: Rose-Briar Motif

Subject: Origins: Rose-Briar Motif
From: Suzy Sock Puppet
Date: 06 Apr 13 - 11:24 AM

The publication this Sir Walter Scott's "Minstrelsy of the Scottish Border turned Selkirk into a romantic tourist site and Sir Walter Scott into a folk hero overnight!

http://www.electricscotland.com/history/other/scott/douglas_tragedy.htm

It is also the reason that ballads collected in that immediate area (Kilbarchin, Roxburgh)which might have contained the rose-briar motif floating verse ending within that immediate time frame after publication had a tendency to leave it off. They wanted the ending to be attached to their local legend only- The Douglas Tragedy. The names of the tragic couple- Margaret and William seems to suggest also that the story is the basis for the fairy ancient ballad of Fair Margaret and Sweet William.

There was a great competition regarding which ballad gets to claim the coveted rose-briar ending. It seem obvious to me that Barbara Allen won out over the others on the sheer strength of its enduring popularity as a love ballad. However, in Tom Munnelly's Mount Callan Garland, Irish traditional singer Tom Lenihan is reported to have insisted that the rose-briar ending belongs to Lord Levett (Irish variant of Lord Lovel) and Lord Levett alone! My money's on Tom :-)

What would any of you have in terms of backing up this proposition.

Subject: RE: Origins: Rose-Briar Motif
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 06 Apr 13 - 12:29 PM

Harry Cox insisted similarly. An interview with him by Bob Thomson and me in Catfield Norfolk shortly before his death in May 1971, transcript published in Folk Review for February 1973, contained the following assertions from him:--

~~~'Barbara Ellen' now, I remember it. Some people sing that different to what other people do. You might know a different tune. And there's some put another two verses at the end. I never could. 'And from her grave grew a rose'. The other one come in 'Lord Lovely' — 'Where they tied together in a true-love's knot, For true loves all to admire.' That's in another song. They get mixed up, that shouldn't come in 'Barbara Ellen'. That don't belong in that. They belong in 'Lord Lovely'. My uncle used to sing that. I never did go in for that, I don't know why. That was out of my line. That was sung by another fellow, and I didn't want to mix up too many bits.~~~

But it is surely vain to insist that any floating verse belongs in only one ballad, whoever the authority (Tom Munnelly, Harry Cox, whoever!) to urge it.

~Michael~

Subject: RE: Origins: Rose-Briar Motif
From: Don Firth
Date: 06 Apr 13 - 03:37 PM

I've been told that on the end of "Barbara Allen," most people tend to get the rose and briar bass-ackwards, singing it as the rose growing from her grave (feeling that the rose is a more feminine image), with the briar growing from his.

But a genuine ballad scholar (Dr. David C. Fowler) said that the rose symbolizes true love, hence, it grew from his grave, whereas the spikiness and conditionality of her love produced the briar.

A bit subtle, perhaps, but in "the language of flowers," it makes better sense.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: Origins: Rose-Briar Motif
From: Susan of DT
Date: 06 Apr 13 - 04:00 PM

The rose and briar verses are not part of Barbara Allen (Child #84) in Child, but they certainly are present by the time Bronson was collecting tunes - in 67 of the 198 versions of Barbara Allen he found.
The rose and briar verses were in
Earl Brand (Child #7),
George Collins (Child #85),
Fair Janet (Child #64),
Lord Thomas and Fair Eleanor (Child #73),
Lord Lovel (Child #75), and
Fair Margaret and Sweet William (Child #74), and mentioned in the original post.

Child #65 Lady Maisry/Susie Clelland has the verses in Bronson, but not in Child, as does one version of Matty Groves, Child #81.

Subject: RE: Origins: Rose-Briar Motif
From: Suzy Sock Puppet
Date: 07 Apr 13 - 11:29 AM

Thank you, especially you Michael, that was very helpful! I believe the total number of ballads that have included this ending in one or more variants is 10. It is the nature of folk music to borrow, make changes, adapt to regional preferences etc. For me, the origin of the rose-briar motif is not a question of propriety; it is strictly a question of scholarship.

Btw, the idea of plants springing from the graves of ill-fated lovers is ancient and universal. The theme is somewhat embedded in the human psyche, however, the rose and briar in particular can be traced to Medieval romance of Tristan and Iseult which mirrors and yet predates the Arthurian storyline of Sir Lancelot and Guinevere. Ethnically speaking, Tristan and Iseult (and Lord Levett as well)can best be described as Hiberno-Norman (Irish-French). Originally, it was just a briar that sprang from Tristan's grave and crept toward Iseult's grave. This idea eventually evolved into a rose and briar intertwining into a true lover's knot. This is vivid maritime imagery. The true lover's knot was once a popular style of wedding ring for sailors!

My research thus far has led me to conclude that Lord Levett as sung by Nora Cleary of "The Hand," Miltown Malbay, Ireland (in Jim Carroll & Pat Mackenzie's "Around the Hills of Clare", is the closest of any to a truly authentic ancient ballad with rose-briar motif ending. Other Irish versions, some of which use the name Lord Donegal and even the version from Tom Lenihan who lived in the same vicinity as Nora, seem to have been influenced by the Lord Levett "remake" "Lord Lovel." Although I might be being a bit hasty here. I have a few more to track down and analyze.

If you listen to Nora's version, you can hear the sea. There is this rhythm and melody like rocking back and forth and the lyrics are filled with references to the sea. You can almost imagine that it survived through women just like Nora singing it while rocking their babes. Also, I have heard the plot of Lord Lovel described as "too, too insipid" (Bronson) or who suggest the lord is a cad for abandoning his lady. To me, that's out of context, written by someone who does not understand the culture of men who go to sea and the women who love them :-)

                                                 ~Susan~

Subject: RE: Origins: Rose-Briar Motif
From: GUEST,Mark Steinhardt
Date: 10 Apr 13 - 07:52 AM

Interesting thread. I am studying the Tristan and Isolde story at the moment (why I found this thread) and I would like to ask Susan if she thinks Tristan is the first appearance of the two-plants-gtowing-from-the-grave-and-entwining motif, or whether we can go further back.

The reason I ask is this: All sorts of earlier stories are suggested as sources for T and I but the links all seem weak. It seems increasing likely to me that T and I is an original story, created at one time by one writer/storyteller/singer and all later versions come from that single act of creativity.

Mark

Mark

Subject: RE: Origins: Rose-Briar Motif
From: Susan of DT
Date: 10 Apr 13 - 04:16 PM

Tristan and Isolde are rather older than we can find proof of the ballads existing. I will ask a story teller friend what he knows of the rose & briar in stories older than the ballads. (I know you were asking the other Susan on this thread)

Subject: RE: Origins: Rose-Briar Motif
From: Suzy Sock Puppet
Date: 10 Apr 13 - 04:24 PM

Child discusses the theme of plants intertwining in the commentary for ballad #7 Earl Bran. It will help you to read that. You may also find Joseph Campbell's book "The Power of Myth" helpful.

I believe Tristan and Iseult appeared in the mid-12th century, I agree those links seem pretty weak and that it was an original story created around that time.

Subject: RE: Origins: Rose-Briar Motif
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 10 Apr 13 - 05:59 PM

Ms Lepak,
I'm interested in your theory that Lord Lovel is a 'remake' of Lord Levett. Personally I see Lord Lovel as a burlesque of some earlier lost ballad, like a few other Child Ballads. Perhaps you would be kind enough to post the text of Lord Lovett or perhaps Jim could do this for us so we can draw our own conclusions.

As most of the English language ballads that use this motif can't be pushed back any further than the 18th century I think it more likely the ballads picked up this motif from continental translations than directly from T&I.

Subject: RE: Origins: Rose-Briar Motif
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Apr 13 - 03:42 AM

"I see Lord Lovel as a burlesque of some earlier lost ballad"
Why "burlesque" and why "lost"?
I really have no idea where "burlesque" comes into the picture at all.
Lord Lovell, Levett, whatever was extremely popular with traditional singers here in the West of Ireland and continues to linger here in the memories of a handful of local singers - Back in the 70s you couldn't "throw a stone around here without hitting somebody" who sang Lord Levett, and every one of them took it deadly serious - not a humorous send-up in sight.
Norfolk singer Walter Pardon's family version was a beautifully tragic one - again, no parody.
The ballad has survived in oral tradition as a serious song right up to the present day all over the English speaking world, why should that form ever have been "lost".
It is highly speculative and misleading to assume that an earliest printed version of a song is any indication that this is its origin and that it hadn't been in oral currency before that time. We simply don't know and can only speculate on the basis of what little information we have.
This must include the tendency of people from whose communities we have taken traditional songs to make local songs themselves, many of which were never taken down or recorded because they didn't fit into the national repertoire and so could not be counted as 'Traditional'.
This part of the rural West of Ireland was rich in such songs, which were still being found in abundance up to the 1980s and some of which still linger on (particularly in the case of emigration songs - a theme which still impacts on everyday life here).
As with 'Lord Lovell' in Clare, it was virtually impossible when in the company of Travellers to "throw a stone without hitting somebody" who sang recently-made Traveller songs dealing with events that involved or had been witnessed by the people who made them - the Stewarts of Blair referred to them as "makie-ups".
The fact that our song tradition was a creative one as well as a medium for passing on earlier made songs really should not be lost sight of.
We really should have that "little talk" sometime Steve.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Origins: Rose-Briar Motif
From: Richard Mellish
Date: 11 Apr 13 - 08:25 AM

Steve said
"I see Lord Lovel as a burlesque of some earlier lost ballad"
and Jim responded
"Why "burlesque" and why "lost"?"

Perhaps "burlesque" isn't quite the best word, but personally I agree with Bronson's "too too insipid". I'm reminded of GUEST,Ktesibios's comment on Anachie Gordon
"At the insistence of her parents Jeannie marries Lord Saltoun and drops dead. Her sailor boyfriend comes home, hears of it and he drops dead. So now it's everybody dead and it's taken us forty-seven verses to get to such an unsatisfying conclusion." There's even less to the plot of Lord Lovel: he goes away and comes back to find that his wife has died. I would like to believe that the surviving ballad derives from an earlier version with more meat to it.

And yet Jim is absolutely right about how the ballad has endured, and (presumably) been taken seriously.

Richard

Subject: RE: Origins: Rose-Briar Motif
From: Suzy Sock Puppet
Date: 11 Apr 13 - 09:32 AM

Comparison of Lord Levett & Lord Lovel

Here is a line-by-line comparison of Nora Cleary's "Lord Levett" and Child's Scottish ballad 75D "Lord Lovel" (75D is the version of Lord Lovel that most resembles Lord Levett in form and content). It is evident that this particular version is not a parody or burlesque but rather a negative commentary on "Lord Lovel." To those on the Lancastrian side of the War of the Roses, Viscount Francis Lovel was notorious. Lovel was not a neutral name like Levett but rather highly controversial. People must take into account that the entire territory of what is now known as the UK, was divided politically and religiously from roughly the beginning of the War of the Roses (1455) to well after the so-called "Glorious Revolution" (1688) when the question of the political and religious character of the entire region was supposedly decided. This Scottish derivative of Lord Levett does not have the rose-brier motif, probably because the motif is associated with Irish-French Catholicism and no self-respecting Protestant Scot would have anything to do with that. Note that the snow-white steed appears in Celtic legend (pre-Arthurian). Milk-white steed on the other hand, found in most versions of Lord Lovel, is Arthurian, Grey steed indicates that Lord Lovel is not a hero at all but a villain. This is the only version in which a grey steed appears. In fact, Lord Lovel is ultimately named as a "discourteous squire." Of those collected thus far for comparison, this is the only version of a ballad by either name in which this happens…

1/1
Lord Levett, he stood on his own stable door,
Lord Lovel stands at his stable door,

And he mounted his snow-white steed
Mounted upon a grey steed,

Lady Anne Sweet Belle stood by his side,
And bye cam Ladie Nanciebel,

For to bid him his last god-speed.
And wishd Lord Lovel much speed

Note: Nan or Nancie is derived from the name Anne, Anne is never derived from Nan or Nancie, "Nanciebel" has obviously replaced "Anne Sweet"

2/2
"Ah, where are you going Lord Levett?" she said,
'O whare are ye going, Lord Lovel?

"Ah, where are you going from me?"
My dearest, tell unto me:'

"I am going to a land beyond the sea;
'I am going a far journey,

Strange countries I'd like to see."
'Some strange countrey to see.

3/3

"How long will you be, Lord Levett?" she said,
************************************************************

"How long will you be from me?" 'How long will you be from me?'
******************************************************************

"All for the sake of three long years,
'But I'll return in seven long years,

Lady Anne Sweet Belle", said he
Lady Nanciebel to see:'

4/4
"Ah, that is too long for true lovers to part;
'Oh seven, seven, seven long years,

And that is too long for me;
They are much too long for me.'

And that is too long for true lovers to part
*********************************************************

And never again to meet."
**********************************************************

5/5

As he was passing St Mary's Church,
He was gane about a year away,

A thought ran into his mind.
A year but barely ane,

He thought he had a true lover at home,
Whan a strange fancy cam intil his head

And indeed, he dreamt she was dead.
That faire Nanciebel was gane.

6/0

"If she is dead", the captain replied,
"It's her you ne'er shall see."
"But I'll never sleep three nights of my life
'Til I see her dead or alive."

7/6
As he rode in to Saint Mary's Church,
It's then he rade, and better rade,

And from that, to Erin Square,
Untill he cam to the toun,

It was there he heard the ring of a bell
And there he heard a dismal noise,

And the people were mourning there.
.For the church bells au did soun.

8/7
"Oh what is this, this pretty fair maid?
He asked what the bells rang for;

Oh what is this?" he said.
They said, It's for Nanciebel;

Is it any of your friends that's going from home
***************************************

Or is it any that's dead?
"*************************

9/7
"Oh yes, oh yes", the captain replied;

"The king's daughter is dead,
**********************************

And she died for the sake of a noble young man,
She died for a discourteous squire,
Lord Levett, she called his name."
And his name is Lord Lovel.

10/8
"If she is dead", Lord Levett, he cried;
The lid of the coffin he opened up,

"It's her you ne'er shall see;
The linens he faulded doun,

But I'll never sleep three nights of my life,
And ae he kissd her pale, pale lips,

'Til I see her dead or alive."
And the tears cam trinkling doun. …

0/9

'Weill may I kiss these pale, pale lips,
For they will never kiss me;
I'll mak a vow, and I'll keep it true,
That I'll neer kiss ane but thee.'

0/10

Lady Nancie died on Tuesday's nicht,
Lord Lovel upon the niest day;
Lady Nancie died for pure, pure love,
Lord Lovel for deep sorraye.


11/0


He was buried in Saint Mary's Church,
And she in Erin Square.
One of them grew a red, red rose,
The other a bonny briar.

12/0

They grew, they grew to the church steeple top,
Till they could not grow any higher,
With a laugh and a tie in a true lover's knot,
And the red rose covered the briar

Subject: RE: Origins: Rose-Briar Motif
From: Suzy Sock Puppet
Date: 11 Apr 13 - 09:44 AM

Oops! When I cut and pasted it from a word document, it came out all messed up! I will repost the messed up verses. Sorry, hope you can follow what I'm doing.

1/1

Lord Levett, he stood on his own stable door,
Lord Lovel stands at his stable-door,

And he mounted his snow-white steed
Mounted upon a grey steed,

Lady Anne Sweet Belle stood by his side,
And bye cam Ladie Nanciebel,

For to bid him his last god-speed.
And wishd Lord Lovel much speed

Subject: RE: Origins: Rose-Briar Motif
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Apr 13 - 12:41 PM

I can't honestly remember ever hearing a burlesque version of the ballad; some wonderful parodies though - "Abe Lincoln Stood at his Stable Door" being among my favourites.
I do agree with Richard's "insipid" Bronson comment though, though when put into the mouth of good singers like Tom Lenihan or Walter Pardon it takes on an authority of its own..
Apropos of nothing, one of the other favourites in this part of the world is 'The Suffolk Miracle" - can't throw a stone..... - again.
I've been digging into the "rose - briar" motif - fascinating reading, certainly as far as roses go.
Funk and Wagnall gives a load of information - it seems to be extremely old and widespread - back to Roman and Greek mythology.
It is surprising if it is true that it only dates back to 18th century; as a folklore symbol it goes much further than that.
Happy to put up or pass on the Funk and Wagnall article if anybody wants it.
By the way, Tom Munnelly listed 50 Child Ballads still being sung in Ireland up to the end of the 90s (we added our 4 verses of of Famous Flower to the list) - might come as a surprise to some people. Happy to pass on this as well.
Jim Carroll

Subject: Lyr Add: LORD LEVETT
From: Suzy Sock Puppet
Date: 11 Apr 13 - 01:43 PM

I went all the way through the comparison and it did not post!!! This is not my day. Anyway Steve, here is your complete set of lyrics to Nora Cleary's "Lord Levett."

12-1 Lord Levett (Roud 48, Child 75)
Nora Cleary, The Hand, near Miltown Malbay.
Rec. July 1976

Lord Levett, he stood on his own stable door,
And he mounted his snow-white steed.
Lady Anne Sweet Belle stood by his side,
For to bid him his last god-speed.

"Ah, where are you going Lord Levett?" she said,
"Ah, where are you going from me?"
"I am going to a land beyond the sea;
Strange countries I'd like to see."

"How long will you be, Lord Levett?" she said,
"How long will you be from me?"
"All for the sake of three long years,
Lady Anne Sweet Belle", said he.

"Ah, that is too long for true lovers to part;
And that is too long for me;
And that is too long for true lovers to part
And never again to meet."

As he was passing St Mary's Church,
A thought ran into his mind.
He thought he had a true lover at home,
And indeed, he dreamt she was dead.

"If she is dead", the captain replied,
"It's her you ne'er shall see."
"But I'll never sleep three nights of my life
'Til I see her dead or alive."

As he rode in to Saint Mary's Church,
And from that, to Erin Square,
It was there he heard the ring of a bell
And the people were mourning there.

"Oh what is this, this pretty fair maid?
Oh what is this?" he said.
Is it any of your friends that's going from home
Or is it any that's dead?"

"Oh yes, oh yes", the captain replied;
"The king's daughter is dead,
And she died for the sake of a noble young man,
Lord Levett, she called his name."

"If she is dead", Lord Levett, he cried;
"It's her you ne'er shall see;
But I'll never sleep three nights of my life,
'Til I see her dead or alive."

He was buried in Saint Mary's Church,
And she in Erin Square.
One of them grew a red, red rose,
The other a bonny briar.

They grew, they grew to the church steeple top,
'Til they could not grow any higher;
With a laugh and a tie in a true lover's knot,
And the red rose covered the briar.

And Steve, if you do end up having that talk with Jim, you might ask him to explain the following which appeared in the Irish Music Review:

"The twelfth song on the first CD is Lord Levett (sometimes also called Lord Lovel[24](l) or Lord Donegal). Unfortunately, one of the most intriguing aspects of this song has not been mentioned in the notes. Roud records no fewer than four hundred and seventy-five references to the song having been collected in other English-speaking countries whereas hardly any versions have been found in Ireland. Jim and Pat write that the song's 'popularity has been put down to the ballad's simplicity of sentiment' which makes it even harder to understand why it has been so rarely heard in Ireland. Was there some as yet unidentified element in the song which deterred Irish singers from learning it?

The answer is probably not, for the more one delves, the more one discovers. Jim and Pat only cite one other recording, that of Walter Pardon, forgetting that Tom Lenihan also recorded the song on The Mount Callan Garland[25]. Yet, as Tom Munnelly recounts in the accompanying book[26], he had also recorded the song from Lenihan's friend and neighbour Tom 'Grifty' Griffin and from Nora Cleary who lived a couple of miles away (indeed the Lenihan version incorporates some of Nora's). (Plus, there may be other versions in the Department of Irish Folklore, which Roud hasn't yet accessed.)

Then, additionally, the song has been recorded by Con Greaney[27] and, perhaps most significantly of all, by Sarah and Rita Keane[28]. The latter's seven-minute version, under the Lord Donegal title, is magnificent in its intensity and utterly negates the quotation employed by Jim and Pat at the head of their notes that the song is 'too, too insipid'. Why our authors have chosen to ignore the Keanes' version is incomprehensible."

And then I went back to the actual liner notes and, lo and behold, that thing about Lord Levett being rarely heard is missing! :-))) Btw, Tom Lenihan's version sounds a bit closer to the modern "traditional" Child's influenced versions. I've heard lots of versions, and so far Nora's is unique. It sounds just like a lullaby. There's nothing quite like it so far.

Subject: RE: Origins: Rose-Briar Motif
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 11 Apr 13 - 02:04 PM

Thanks for chipping in, Jim.

Note I was very careful to make it clear all of my comments were opinions based on close study of all versions at my disposal, which clearly didn't include the versions mentioned by you and SJL.

My opening comment in which SJL seemed to be saying that she thought the English and Scottish versions derived from the Irish was my main interest here and your comment on the imaginative interpolations of the travellers seems to go against this.

Lord Lovel WAS very popular as a burlesque (and parodied)(I have several copies and can if you wish scan them for you) in various forms in Britain in the early 19th century, but yes I was going further than this and wouldn't be the first enthusiast to suggest that even the earliest versions extant looked like burlesques.

It is also fairly well-known that the folk song burlesques of the early 19thc soon returned to oral tradition as serious songs. Billy Taylor, Lord Bateman, Barbara Allen. Not all burlesques involved seriously altering the words, some were simply burlesqued in the grotesque delivery, a la Grimaldi, Sam Cowell, Fred Robson, J W Sharp etc.

Susan or Jim,
I look forward to reading an orderly text of Lord Levett.

Subject: RE: Origins: Rose-Briar Motif
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 11 Apr 13 - 02:22 PM

'It is surprising if it is true that it only dates back to 18th century; as a folklore symbol it goes much further than that.'

Jim,
Nobody suggested that. I simply said that most of the ballads quoted that use the motif can't be traced back any further, but some of them can be traced back to the 17thc. I can't say that I've seen any of the quoted ballads that can be traced back further than this though, not in English anyway.

Subject: RE: Origins: Rose-Briar Motif
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 11 Apr 13 - 02:32 PM

A little extract from Child's headnotes.

'LL is peculiarly such a ballad as Orsino likes and praises: It is silly sooth, like old age. Therefore a gross taste has taken pleasure in parodying it, and the same with 'Young Beichan'. But there are people in this world who are amused even with burlesques of Orthello.'

There is also a lengthy footnote to go with this statement commenting on the lack of a burden, the cheerfulness of the tune in contrast to the text, and the like anomalies in Norwegian similar ballads.

Subject: RE: Origins: Rose-Briar Motif
From: Suzy Sock Puppet
Date: 11 Apr 13 - 02:56 PM

Steve, it sounds like you are familiar with "Folk Songs of the Catskills" Cazden et al. pg. 136 - 139:

"But reaching beyond the influence of such publications have been the numerous comic parodies of Lord Lovell. Barry notes the earliest among them to have been sung in 1836 by comedian James Howard of Niblo's Garden (Hadaway). Every-body's Songster in 1839 included another, sung by Thomas Hadaway himself, called Sukey Soapsuds. A sheet music publication of 1844, issued in Edinburgh by Wood and Co., contained The Pathetic Historie of Lord Lovell and Nancy Bell, as sung by Sam Cowell, who made it a spectacular success. Barry further mentions the 1857 sheet music issued in Boston by Oliver Ditson, listed also thus by Dichter, with the title The Celebrated Lord Lovel and Lady Nancy Bell, Comic Ballad, arranged by J.C.J. Finally, Barry notes the Joe Muggins treatment, which may be termed a parody of the parody.

Sam Cowell's comic parody of Lord Lovell was published twice, no later than 1855, in the Musical Bouquet series of London sheet-music issues. The earlier copy (#789) contains spoken interludes, as well as the comic ballad form proper. Information on the song copy (#857) states that both the comicked Lord Lovel and the even more famous Vilikens and his Dinah were sung in Sam Cowell's music hall show called The Ratcatcher's Daughter. One of the many instrumental medleys in which the tune of Lord Lovel appears, also published in the Musical Bouquet series (#787), was arranged by J. Harroway, and called Sam Cowell's Comic Quadrille.

All three copies show the same splendid color engraving on their covers. It depicts Sam Cowell, dressed in the character of Lord Lovell. He wears a formal morning suit, complete with top hat, but his trouser cuffs are turned up as though for wading a muddy stretch. Over one shoulder he carries a travel pack. His theatrically woebegone expression is shown full face, gleaming eyes peering from beneath exaggerated beetle brows.

Variant as well as newly improvised wordings were sure to develop during later performances of such a music-hall success, and some of them were incorporated into their published prints. Cowell's text, as it appeared in Davidson's folio of 1861, contains the slightly altered line:

All true-loviers to admire –rire-rire

Which draws hilarity from the ballad conceit of repeating syllables, such as in truth arises rather from musical structures when these are applied relentlessly to texts that will not support them…??

In H.M.S. Pinafore, verse 8 of Lord Lovell in the Davidson's Musical Library folio reads:

Then he flung himself down by the side of the corpse
With a shivering gulp and a guggle
Gave two hops, three kicks, heav'd a sigh, blew his nose
Sung a stave, and then died in the struggle–uggle-uggle,
Sung a stave, and then died in the struggle.

Cowell's parody form continued to be reprinted in London during the 1860's in Charles Sheard's Great Comic Volume, and in 1876 in D'Alcorn's Musical Miracles.

According to Barry, the Joe Muggins parody text was also introduced by Sam Cowell in the period about 1850. In an 1869 parody by E.F. Dixey, Lord Lovell is left not only with a broken heart but with broken kneecaps, the result of his smashing into a post while riding his velocipede.

Besides both a serious and comic text of Lord Lovel, the Edwin Ford Piper Collection contains a Civil War parody called A New Ballad of Lord Lovell, the brave defender of New Orleans. The item is mentioned by John Harrington Cox, and fragments of other texts are given by Horace M. Belden. Four stanzas have been recorded by Ewan MacColl and Peggy Seeger (ZDA 70). In this New Ballad parody, the original…

…narrative has dropped out, but the tune and the familiar pattern remain, to produce an ending with telling reference. This Lord Lovel was a "rebel swell," who "sat in St. Charles hotel," a-waving his sword on high:

He swore by the black and he swore by the blue
He swore by the stars and the bars
He would never fly from a Yankee crew
While he was a son of Mars, Mars, Mars
While he was a son of Mars

Inevitably, the dénouement to so swaggering an opening was that the hero and his 50,000 men fled, without firing a shot, at the first sighting of Farragut's fleet. But in faithful ballad fashion, the fateful end is satirized with an additional fillip:

When Lord Lovell's life was brought to a close
By a sharp shooting Yankee gunner
From his head there sprouted a red, red rose
From his heels a scarlet runner, runner, runner
From his heels a scarlet runner

Except for Barry, ballad scholars unfortunately appear either to have been oblivious to, or disdainful of, the documented history of these distinctly comic forms of Lord Lovell, while they have seemed hesitant as well to recognize the implications of their music-hall origins. Sandy Paton states (FSA 36F) that Child himself had a comic text, but would not print it with the others. At least nine of the versions compiled by Bertrand Bronson may be identified as comic treatments. Bronson does not single them out or mark them so, and while he does acknowledge that some humorous texts are known, he seems not to sense either that their humor is satirical or that it is stagey. Instead, he thinks of them as children's treatments or "nursery degenerations": "The high seriousness of the parents is the children's favorite joke." The obtuseness of ballad scholars in this regard must be appreciated as a very difficult feat, since the material available to them is hard to pass by without notice. Diversion of the humorous aspects onto this tack means overlooking their theatre-piece beginnings, and it means also ignoring their service as symptoms of the necessary wide previous audience acquaintance with the "straight" versions, such as satire requires.

Tristram P. Coffin mentions "burlesques" of the ballad, and to account for them, he finds no better explanation than a vaguely humorous inclination, somehow implicit in its tune. To this effect he quotes Arthur Kyle Davis, who in truth hardly qualifies as an expert on such musical subtleties: "The melodies are too light for the story and mitigate the tragedy. For this reason, the song has often been subject to parody." Reed Smith also, while otherwise taking note of five printings of the ballad in American songsters between 1836 and 1865, infers nothing from them as evidence of comic theatre forms, but attributes the comic effect to a "lilting tune." So speculative a "reason" becomes less persuasive as we observe that, while most known versions of both the serious and the comic text forms of Lord Lovell have been sung to the tune strain found in #33, which by this definition is "too light" to support a serious text, the identical "light" tune strain is found in use also for numerous versions of Child # 4 Lady Isabel and the Elf Knight; for one version of Child #25, Willie's Lyke-Wake (Greig); and for many versions of Child 73 Lord Thomas and Fair Eleanor. For none of these have comic parodies appeared such as would supposedly have been induced by the tune.

Conversely, such "reasoning" or rationalization likewise cannot account for comic parodies of other ballads not known to have been afflicted with "light" tunes. Thus Davidson's Musical Library (ix 1862) contains a "comicked" treatment of Child 84, Barbara Allen, showing the ready application of the practice to "serious" sentimental themes. The common Billy McGee Magar form of Child 26, The Three Ravens (see notes to #99) is another for which neither the oldest nor the most familiar tune strains suggest "lightness."

Apart from the facile pitfall of attributing to a musical tune the verbal meanings and connotations of its associated text, we might do better to adduce rather a contrary principle – namely, that for successful parody, an obvious conflict between tune character and text is eminently desirable. For example, the rather lugubrious minor tune sung by Comical Brown for Billy Vite and Nelly Green helps to emphasize its satire of #66, The Arsenic Tragedy. The slow and mournful manner, in which Marvin Yale sang #142, Missie Mouse, made the ordinarily bouncy tune hilariously funny. It would be fair to say that the speculations of even the most reputable ballad scholars on musical matters, when they are not infused with the needed musical insights, may at times prove nothing short of childish.

Yet the approach they have taken reflects less an academic obtuseness on their part than a underestimation and a misapprehension of the role played by touring theatrical performers in developing and disseminating what later came to be idealized as an archaic oral tradition, romantically immune to such contamination. Instead, the notable uniformity among numerous collected versions of a ballad ought to have alerted students at once to the probability that organized means of mass distribution must have been responsible, rather than the localized, spontaneous, slow, and sporadic process of oral tradition.

Particularly is this evident with regard to ballad and song tunes. For wherever a tune can be located for any of the comic parodies of Lord Lovell, it always belongs to the same tune strain. Barry's designation of this tune as the "vulgate" form is confirmed by the additional examples we have noted, and by the tune of #33. How much this kind of musical uniformity may result in part from the many publications containing the notated music has often escaped consideration; it has been assumed that "the folk" is, by definition, musically illiterate.

George Davidson's Modern Song Book of 1854 contains no tunes. But included with its text (275-76) of Child 275, Get Up and Bar the Door, is a dutiful notice, "music at Duff & Hodgson's." Not only does that imply that the ballad must have been receiving popular notice and acclaim in the music hall sufficient to support the hope of selling the printed copies at a profit; it also implies that word-of- mouth tradition alone may not at all account for the numerous similar versions of the ballad "recovered" at a later date.

A further way in which tunes become familiar is their adaption for dancing. It was common practice, during the heyday of Lord Lovell as a stage hit, to use the latest music-hall numbers in the ballroom. The Musical Bouquet published the tune as part of three quadrilles and in three other instrumental medleys. The rival Musical Treasury in the same period was content with a single waltz adaptation. Other instrumental dance treatments were published during the 1860's by Boosey and Co., by William Chappell and B. Mackenzie in London, and by Elias Howe in Boston. Boosey's Musical Cabinet #5 contains Lord Lovell's Waltz, a salon piece for piano by Henri Laurent."

Subject: RE: Origins: Rose-Briar Motif
From: Suzy Sock Puppet
Date: 11 Apr 13 - 03:15 PM

And one more thing Steve: Google "Lord Lovel and Lady Hounsibelle" - just like that in quotes-and view what comes up. Note the date.

                                  ~Susan~

Subject: RE: Origins: Rose-Briar Motif
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 11 Apr 13 - 04:23 PM

Hi Susan,
An excellent though not exhaustive summary of the burlesque situation. I'm not sure I fully agree with Cazden's use of the term parody. I would understand 'parody' as introducing some other element to the plot whereas burlesque simply takes the micky out of what already exists. It may use a different dialect or add comic features but generally doesn't change the basic meaning as parody does. 'Joe Muggins' is a parody; 'Villikins' is burlesque as I see it.

I do have the basic Catskills book, but not the supplement. It's one of my most oft-consulted tomes, very thorough on the songs it includes.

This meaning of 'burlesque' of course is a lot older than the 19thc, although it did reach a peak of popularity in the mid 19thc.

We mustn't forget also that these burlesques were endlessly printed as street lit, sometimes alongside the straight versions. It is quite possible that the English Barbara Allen is an early burlesque of the pseudo Scots version, no doubt the one heard at the theatre by Pepys.

Subject: RE: Origins: Rose-Briar Motif
From: Suzy Sock Puppet
Date: 11 Apr 13 - 05:13 PM

Yeah, I think the English regularly made fun of the Scots and the Irish- oft times tongue in cheek as it were so the humor may be very subtle. The date on Walpole's letter to Percy was early February 1965 and the first published ballad of Lord Lovel is credited to Percy (1770). I don't think Percy or the Reverend Parsons who supposedly sent Percy the ballad in May of 1770 had ever heard of Lord Lovel before- and I believe I can make this case because I obtained the original documents from Harvard and the Percy-Parsons connection looks pretty sketchy. My theory is that Percy tried to pass Walpole's burlesque, parody, what have you, with a few minor changes, as a "Northumbrian ballad." Percy was at that time in the employ of a wealthy Northumbrian family. Percy was very ambitious and it was due, in no small part, to his publishing credits that he eventually attained the status of Bishop of Dromore.

About the subtlety of the humor...Review Child 75A, that's the variant credited to Percy, and ask yourself whether you see the same innuendo in the same lines as are found in Walpole's obvious parody:

75 A.2 'That is a long time, Lord Lovill,' said she,
       'To live in fair Scotland;'
       'And so it is, Lady Ouncebell,
       To leave a fair lady alone.'

Sounds to me like these lines are hinting at infidelity. This is not a ballad, it's a rehashed anti-Jacobite tavern song! The true ballad of Lord Lovel, which I believe was inspired by Lord Levett (Nora's version) is the version 75E, contributed by a reknowned and well loved Scottish folklorist John Francis Campbell aka "Young John of Islay."

Subject: RE: Origins: Rose-Briar Motif
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 11 Apr 13 - 05:19 PM

Susan,
Many thanks for the references to the Percy Mss versions. I wasn't aware of these online. What they demonstrate is that the ballad was quite popular among the high stratas of English society in the mid-18thc. Child chose to print as his A version only one of these versions dated 1770 and 1775 but at least one version online is dated 1765. These early versions bear the hallmarks of burlesque for me, despite what Jim says, the jig metre, the very clipped phrases such as 'And buried 'em both in a grave' remind me of the definite burlesque versions of Cowell et al.

Another interesting point is the correspondents mention 'the exact counterpart' of this ballad as 'Giles Colin'. Precisely. Giles Collins is another ballad that I think is a burlesque. It has the same ludicrous very clipped language and has some of the same motifs in it.

Subject: RE: Origins: Rose-Briar Motif
From: Suzy Sock Puppet
Date: 11 Apr 13 - 05:40 PM

Which version is dated 1765 online besides Walpole's? I must know!

Subject: RE: Origins: Rose-Briar Motif
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 11 Apr 13 - 05:41 PM

Susan,
Thanks for the Nora Cleary version. I'm sorry I can't agree with you though. No matter what it sounds like when sung the text looks like a refacimento due to the forgetting of some parts. The lack of rhyme in places would also point to this. What I would call a typical traveller version. Before anyone jumps in on this I am not running down traveller versions in any way. They can be and often are just as beautiful as any other version, often to me more beautiful because they have evolved further down the line. As to this being precedent to any of the other British versions, highly unlikely.

Subject: RE: Origins: Rose-Briar Motif
From: Suzy Sock Puppet
Date: 11 Apr 13 - 05:58 PM

Maybe this "forgetting" has to do with the omission of verses that have to do with suicide and coffins? Different times have different sensibilities regarding such issues. Guess we'll never know if anyone keened at these funerals :-)

And, you didn't answer my question. I honestly don't think there is any other version dated 1765 except Walpole's.

I must go out now. Catch you later I hope...

Subject: RE: Origins: Rose-Briar Motif
From: Suzy Sock Puppet
Date: 11 Apr 13 - 11:16 PM

OK. While I was out, I gave it some thought...

While one might say that "Lord Lovel" has two traditions - tragic (ballad) and comic (parody or burlesque). One might also say that "Lord Lovel" has two traditions - folk and, as Steve asserted, upper-class. I thought as much myself. One must take care to separate the two. For example, in the original folk version, the protagonist has a premonition. This can indicate either chronological age OR educational level at a given time in history.

As I mentioned before, the Kinloch ballad, Child 75D, is missing the rose-briar motif ending and I have also suggested that, since it so closely resembles Nora Cleary's "Lord Levett," that it was left off due to either Protestant influence or the fact that it was "taken down from a lady in Roxburghshire" very close to Selkirk, home of the Black Douglas of "The Douglas Tragedy," major tourist attraction.

Sir Walter Scotts's (1803) version of "The Douglas Tragedy" involves a Lady Margaret and a Lord William which seems to imply a connection to the ballad, "Fair Margaret's Misfortune," also known as "Fair Margaret and Sweet William." In fact, "The Douglas Tragedy" seems to incorporate both "Earl Bran,""Fair Margaret and Sweet William," and "Lord Lovel."

Now this is the interesting part: I could have said that it was a synthesis of "Earl Bran" and "Fair Margaret and Sweet William" only. That is because "Fair Margaret and Sweet William" have had the rose-briar motif ending at least since c.1720 Douce BalladsI(72a). In this aforementioned version of "Fair Margaret and Sweet William," it says that one was buried in the high chancel and one in the lower. That's very refined and so forth, very symmetrical and all, but not very accurate...

It so happens that in 1547 during the "Rough Wooing," English forces set fire to St. Mary's church in Dundee Scotland and when it was over all that remained was the high chancel and the choir, exceedingly unorthodox burial sites. Too much of a coincidence.

To be thorough, one might speculate that the pun was derived from "Fair Margaret and Sweet William" except for one thing: "Fair Margaret and Sweet William" are ENGLISH and "Lord Levett" is IRISH-FRENCH. Whether we are talking about Nora Cleary's "Erinn's Square" or Tom Lenihan's "St. Mary's Square," the word is SQUARE- that is until it became CHOIR- and finally HIGHER. The town square and the church are community centers- no surprise there. You'll find that in later versions of ballads that contain this motif, balladeers strove to make sense of this nonsensical (out of context) floating verse by changing it. Many modern versions of Barbara Allen say that she was buried in the old churchyard and Sweet William was buried beside her or nigh her... You get the drift.

If it weren't for Campbell's version, I would have concluded that "Lord Lovel" had entered the scene as a parody but Campbell's version is aesthetically perfect as a ballad. Looks like a Jacobite ballad. And just think, the most fun anti-Jacobites could ever have is to turn a serious Jacobite ballad into a choice parody. I love Horace Walpole by the way. He's so clever. His pet name for his friend George Montague's sister was "Hounsibella."

As I was saying, Nora Cleary is the real McCoy :-)

Subject: RE: Origins: Rose-Briar Motif
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 12 Apr 13 - 01:43 AM

Sometimes, tho, the lovers are buried in one grave, to imply even closer connections in life ~~ even, where there has been rivalry, all three concerned: in some versions of Lord Thomas & Fair Annet*, Child #73, social implications even arise in the proposed disposal of the corpse, (as in some versions of Little Musgrave/Mattie Groves, #81, &c,) whereby the one of 'the nobler kin' must be buried in the most favourable position. This is one of the conventions parodied in Villikins And His Dinah, who were 'laid in one grave', for the sake of which a doggerel rhyme is contrived, making her mourning father first 's[i]ng a short stave'. It is not always realised btw that there is a burlesque element even in the form of the eponymous father's 'comic-Cockney' name ~~ he was actually, of course, called Wilkins.

~M~

*I have often wondered btw why Child chose that title, as she is far more frequently called Elinor.

Subject: RE: Origins: Rose-Briar Motif
From: GUEST,Susan
Date: 12 Apr 13 - 05:19 AM

True. I notice that some of the Lord Lovel variants indicate reconciliation between Catholic and Protestant Scots- like Romeo and Juliet:

Gar deal the white bread and the wine
Gar deal the biscuit and the beer ...

Subject: RE: Origins: Rose-Briar Motif
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 12 Apr 13 - 10:19 AM

Susan,
I actually said 'at least one version' meaning I hadn't checked all the references thoroughly. Looking more closely the two pieces I printed off are the same ballad but posted at different times, both of them to Horace Walpole. One has been simply scanned so there are typos.

If by the Campbell version you mean Child E it is pretty obvious to me this corrupt version is derived ultimately from Child A or a version thereof. As someone has already stated the rose-briar motif is so widespread internationally in ballads and elsewhere to draw any hard and fast conclusions about precedence. It is quite possible that some of the English language ballads picked it up from separate translations of different continental ballads. It would to take a pretty exhaustive study to determine this of course.

Personally I think you're reading far too much into these versions. I will take a lot more convincing and the aesthetic value of any of these doesn't tell us much in scholarly terms.

Subject: RE: Origins: Rose-Briar Motif
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 12 Apr 13 - 10:47 AM

Michael,
Child probably chose to use 'Annet' because he was following his A version from Percy and as a professor of literature he would have been more inclined to use a title that was familiar to his target audience. Also his abhorrence of street literature might lead him to avoid the 'Eleanor' title despite it having chronological precedence.

Wilkins is an endearment version of William, as I'm sure you know, as in the serious broadside original 'William and Dinah'.

Subject: RE: Origins: Rose-Briar Motif
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 12 Apr 13 - 11:02 AM

I can't contribute to scholarship here, but if anybody wants to have a good time, you can find "Sweet Willie and Lady Margot" in the Ballad Book of John Jacob Niles. That is available for free at Google Books. The song is on page 157.

It has a great tune and good story, and yes, a rose and a briar appear at the end.

I'd like to add that I have been fighting a briar in my front yard since 1977. I've beaten it down to the point where all it does it send up an occasional shoot, yet it is obviously a tenacious plant which is ready to take over the world. Every millimeter of the stem sprouts thin, very sharp thorns. The thorns of a rose are nothing compared to the thorns of a briar.

Subject: RE: Origins: Rose-Briar Motif
From: Suzy Sock Puppet
Date: 12 Apr 13 - 11:10 AM

Hmmm..."It is highly speculative and misleading to assume that an earliest printed version of a song is any indication that this is its origin and that it hadn't been in oral currency before that time. We simply don't know and can only speculate on the basis of what little information we have."

That said, that is, the master having spoken, no Steve. 75E is exquisite. The only way it could be inauthentic is if "Young John" made it up himself. And, you're right. I am reading a lot into this because, unlike uncomplicated ballads like "Barbara Allen', there's so much there to read. Lots of historical insight to gain.

And believe it or not, a lot of research is intuition. When I heard Nora Cleary, I could look clear across the ocean. No gay little parlor song there. The other modern day versions, so far anyway, are clearly post-Victorian, primarily text derived :-))) If you have never heard Nora Cleary, you need to buy that collection. It's very important work.

And I can be as passionate about this itsy-bitsy ballad as I wanna be. At least I'm not like Margaret Thatcher putting everybody out of work, eh? Eh?

Subject: RE: Origins: Rose-Briar Motif
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 12 Apr 13 - 11:47 AM

Quite, Steve. My point was that I have come across many people who didn't even realise that 'Villikins"="Wilkins" in mock-Cockney ... which (Wilkins) is, of course, also a very familiar surname as well as a pet form of "Little-Willie".

~M~

Subject: RE: Origins: Rose-Briar Motif
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 12 Apr 13 - 02:16 PM

Hi, Susan,
I hope I didn't sound too dismissive.

Like you I enjoy presenting opinions based on a lifetime of research.

Jim's statement which you quote is fair comment. Of course we can never be fully certain that any work of art is original unless we have just produced it. However every work of art must have had a point of origin and it is reasonable in my mind to suppose that a ballad appearing for the first time with no prior indications of its existence is at least likely to be of that period. Certainly the opposite can't be proved.

I don't remember suggesting that 75E is 'inauthentic'. 'Exquisite' is to my mind way over the top. Anyone else following Susan here?

As for intuitive research, absolutely! But once you've had the intuition you've got to back it up with facts if you want any credibility.

I'm pretty certain that if I heard Nora Cleary sing this ballad I would be enraptured, but that would not convince me that this was some archaic throwback.

Subject: RE: Origins: Rose-Briar Motif
From: GUEST,Susan
Date: 12 Apr 13 - 03:16 PM

Ok Steve. You wore me out :))) No offense whatsoever taken. I love debate. Thank you for all your communications!

Subject: RE: Origins: Rose-Briar Motif
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 12 Apr 13 - 03:36 PM

Thank-you!
I too love debate, especially when it involves ballads.

Subject: RE: Origins: Rose-Briar Motif
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Apr 13 - 04:10 PM

"Jim's statement which you quote is fair comment. Of course we can never be fully certain that any work of art is original unless we have just produced it."

Then why do you insist on presenting your theories as facts and describing your opponents as "romantics" who "believe all this nonsense" or other such insulting dismissals of our work?

Short of a hidden trove of information being found we will never know for certain who made the songs and ballads, so we have to rely on what little information we have and as much common sense based on what we do know to arrive at an intelligent guess - paper pushing by tracing earliest versions isn't going to do it, not for me anyway.

It is inconceivable that an anonymous non-co-operating school of "broadside hacks" would ever come up with a repertoire of songs containing background information, folklore (before the discipline was ever recognised), vernacular or all the other beautiful insights they gave us into the lives and experiences of the people they are about and a general familiarity of the communities that gave rise to them; certainly not enough to fool the generations that carried the songs that they were "Norfolk", or "Somerset" or "sailor" or "military".

The making of local songs that never made it onto the collectors' notebooks or tape recorders because they didn't fit into the national repertoire in Ireland and Scotland is an indication that people felt compelled to express themselves in song and verse – we know about well over a 100 that were made in this village alone – I know the same happened in England in spite of your claims that "English people were far too busy earning a living".

One of the problems is that many of the early scholars, despite their magnificent contribution, wouldn't recognise a traditional singer if one placed a hand over his ear and burst into a 25 verse version of Sir Patrick Spens – this includes Child.

Paper knowledge is no real guide unless you have enough of it.

Even more up-to-date collectors seem to have neglected to find out if the singers knew anything other than the songs.

You know my opinion of Phillips Barry's dismissive to the verge of contempt in his note to 'The Lake of Col Fin', in New Green Mountain Songster.

"Popular tradition, however, does not mean popular origin. In the case of our ballad, the underlying folklore is Irish de facto, but not de jure: the ballad is of Oriental and literary origin, and has sunk to the level of the folk which has the keeping of folklore. To put it in a single phrase, memory not invention is the function of the folk"

One Canadian collector wrote in her memoirs that she "couldn't wait for the songs she had collected from traditional singers to be taken up by "proper singers" – again, verging on contempt.

If there is any way of learning about the songs and their origins it is through the singers to whom they "sank to the level of".

The suggestion that the singers were "too busy" so they contracted the job of song-making out to hacks shows equal contempt as far as I'm concerned.

Jim Carroll

Susan – haven't been in touch yet, but will do so as soon as it starts raining – bloody garden!

Subject: RE: Origins: Rose-Briar Motif
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Apr 13 - 04:35 PM

I must be mixing with the wrong people, Jim. These scholars! I don't know! They don't know nuffin! That Professor Child, who was he anyway!

I'm sorry, Jim, but you're way out of touch.

'certainly not enough to fool the generations that carried the songs'.

Why does 'fooling' come into it?

I can't comment on the origins of 'Lake of Culfin' but by and large Barry is only expressing what the vast majority of scholars of the last 50 years have been saying on both sides of the pond.

Of course the country folk made/make their own songs. I gave you plenty of examples. I've recorded plenty myself but they simply don't get the coverage that print gives to the hacks and rarely do they make it into general circulation.

I'm disappointed that you think that my beliefs show contempt. Like you I have spent many hours in the field and always had great respect for the singers whatever they were singing. Some of them were my own family.

Subject: RE: Origins: Rose-Briar Motif
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 12 Apr 13 - 04:50 PM

Sorry, Jim
As you will have guessed that was me. Cookie expired again.

Subject: RE: Origins: Rose-Briar Motif
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 12 Apr 13 - 05:31 PM

Barry might well indeed have been simply expressing the scholarly views of his time, Steve; but you would surely agree that, even in such a context, the phrase "sunk to the level of the folk" is, to put it with all due moderation, an unfortunate choice of words?

~M~

Subject: RE: Origins: Rose-Briar Motif
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 12 Apr 13 - 06:08 PM

Perhaps, Mike, but if he simply meant coming down the social scale isn't this just the case with much of the material, especially the flowery stuff that came down from the theatres and pleasure gardens? Not so much in the case of the broadside ballads as most of the hacks were on a pretty low social scale already, at least in the 19thc.

'sunk to the level of' is nowadays a derogatory idiom, but was it so in Barry's day?

Subject: RE: Origins: Rose-Briar Motif
From: GUEST,Susan
Date: 12 Apr 13 - 10:15 PM

Jim, speaking of gardens, here's a link for you:

http://campus.udayton.edu/mary/resources/m_garden/SM-MAMFGWII-TKMG.html

Briar is "Queen Mary's Rose" - on a short list of plants dedicated to the Virgin Mary. And the rose is a fairly universal symbol of her as well.

Much ado about St. Mary's Church but it all makes perfect sense to me. Lord Levett has a special devotion to Mary. Not uncommon for sailors.

Not to mention this business of plants laughing as they tie a true lovers knot. That' s about as Irish as it gets :-) I don't believe I'm reading too much in. I am simply analyzing content. It's there...

Subject: RE: Origins: Rose-Briar Motif
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 13 Apr 13 - 02:19 AM

"descend/sink/stoop to someone's level
: to behave as badly as someone who has treated you wrongly
▪ Despite my opponent's personal attacks against me, I refuse to stoop to his level. [=I refuse to behave as badly as he has by attacking him personally]" Merriam Webster Dictionary
.,,.
I think it would always have been a phrase with a pejorative or contemptuous overtone, Steve. Barry was surely talking of, and meaning, the degeneration the song had undergone.

~M~

Subject: RE: Origins: Rose-Briar Motif
From: GUEST,Susan
Date: 13 Apr 13 - 02:44 AM

Ok. Historically the enlightened of the upper class has always been interested in the artistic endeavors of the lower classes, albeit it often resembles the interest shown to a conquered indigent group. Conversely, artists of the lower class have aspired to gain acceptance by their "betters."

All that Jim was trying to say is that there is no room for snobbery in the study if ballads.

Subject: RE: Origins: Rose-Briar Motif
From: GUEST,Susan
Date: 13 Apr 13 - 02:48 AM

Oh yeah, and bartender, bring me another whiskey, will ya?

Subject: RE: Origins: Rose-Briar Motif
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Apr 13 - 03:46 AM

"I must be mixing with the wrong people, Jim. "
Sorry Steve; like other arguments we have had, you answer nothing.
In the past you have dismissed my arguments as being about "strapping ploughboys and fair maidens", called me a "romantic" or something on that level, and you have given 'character references of the "scholars" who subscribe to your ideas rather than deal with those arguments - doesn't hack it for me I'm afraid.
To turn what we think we know on its head you need to produce solid proof of what you claim rather than a collection of dates of the earliest printed versions and character references from academics.
I was surprised to learn that you, who have apparently done masses of work in your paper-trail, had never heard of David Fowler's 'The Literary History of the Popular Ballad', one of the major works on ballad origins.
I was astounded when you had to ask "does anybody take Lord Lovel seriously?" apparently unaware of Walter Pardon's, Jeannie Robertson's, Ethel Findlater's Charlotte Higgins's, Emily Bishop's, version or of its popularity in Ireland..... and all the other 'po-faced' versions which have been taken from our traditional singers.
Barry's comment was as dismissive of the singers as yours is of other researchers who happen not to agree with you.
You have all but admitted that you are unable to provide proof of one single song appearing on a broadside hadn't been taken down from a traditional singer first, yet you claim that 90-odd% of them originated in print; you even suggest that later versions also started life in such a way - writing off the singers as composers all-but completely.
You dismissed the composition of local songs as "the occasional scribbling of retired old people" (paraphrase), ignoring the mass of anonymous songs that didn't make it into the collections because they didn't fit into the national repertoire.
You claim that the English rural working classes were "too busy earning a living to make songs" – compared to whom – their Irish counterparts fighting wars of independence, civil wars, experiencing famines, evictions, mass emigration….. come on Steve, you can do better than that.
When you were pinned down to agreeing that the bothy songs were made by the farmworkers, you claimed that their special circumstances of existence were unique, yet the description you outlined was identical to life at sea, or in the army, the songs of which you claim to be print-originated.   
If you want to dismiss the conclusions of others, you really are going have to do a little better than that Steve.
For your interest, this is Barry's somewhat off-the-wall note to one of the most beautiful and popular songs of a domestic tragedy, 'The Lake of Col Fin', in all its glory.
And you call me a "romantic"!
Jim Carroll

"From Lilith, the wild woman of perilous love, and Morgain la Fee, to the mood of a street ballad about one of the many Irish youths who have lost their lives in fresh water, is a long leap. But "The Lakes of Col Fin" takes it. Irish singers understand the lore of the ballad perfectly: Willie was not "drowned"; he was taken away to Tir fa Tonn, "Fairyland-under-wave," by a water woman who had fallen in love with him. Legends of similar content are frequent in Middle Irish literature and have survived into modern popular tradition. We may compare Motherwell's, "The Mermayden," whose "bower is biggit o' the gude ships' keels, and the banes o' the drowned at sea"—a grim picture of the supernatural woman's cruelty in love, which the poet nicely caught—and Leyden's "The Mermaid of Corrievrekan," with a happy ending wrought by a clever hero who inveigles the mermaid into taking him back to bid farewell to his former love, "the maid of Colonsay."
Both poems were based on local traditions and legends.
Popular tradition, however, does not mean popular origin. In the case of our ballad, the underlying folklore is Irish de facto, but not de lure: the ballad is of Oriental and literary origin, and has sunk to the level of the "folk" which has the keeping of folklore. To put it in a single phrase, memory not invention, is the function of the folk.
"The Lakes of Col Fin" was first printed by Dr. P. W. Joyce in 1872, in a version, with the air, obtained from a County Limerick singer. A full history of the ballad and of the folk tradition pertaining to it is in FSSNE, Bulletin No. 8, pp. 9—12.
Mrs. Flanders met this ballad as "The Lakes of Champlain" while talking about old songs with Mrs. Herbert Haley of Cuttingsville, Vermont. Mrs. Haley sang the words to the tune of "The Dying Cowboy" and had been told that the drowned boy was "Willie Lanard."
New Green Mountain Songster, Yale University Press 1939

Subject: RE: Origins: Rose-Briar Motif
From: Suzy Sock Puppet
Date: 13 Apr 13 - 04:22 AM

Home again, home again, jigitty jig :)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=39Z80oHUZOw

Subject: RE: Origins: Rose-Briar Motif
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Apr 13 - 05:38 AM

Handy 'flower' site Susan - had a problem with the other link - kept getting a woman's voice advertising "brawband" - presumably the Scots equivalent of Broadband - what is happening to the English language?
Will persevere.
It takes a bit of space, but here is the 'Funk and Wagnall Dictionary of Folklore, Mythology and Legend' entry for 'Rose' - might be something for somebody.
Jim Carroll   

ROSE
The national flower of England, once divided between the followers of the white rose of the House of York and the red rose of Lancaster in the War of the Roses. In the United States it is the state flower of New York, Iowa, and North Dakota. Originally from Persia, the rose is said to have been brought to the West by Alexander. To the Arabs the rose was a masculiine flower. It was anciently a symbol of joy, later of secrecy
and silence, but is now usually associated with love.
The rose, as one of the most beautiful of flowers, has always been associated in one way or another with Venus. Various legends ascribe its origin to her tears or as a gift of the gods to celebrate her rising from the sea. Some say it became red because Venus (Aphrodite) pricked her feet on the thorns as she sought her slain lover, Adonis. Other legends link it with her son, Cupid, e.g. the roses became red when he mischievously emptied a cup of wine on them, or once, when he stopped smell a rose, he was stung by a bee which had been admiring the same rose. Cupid was so angry that he
shot an arrow into the bush; this accounts for the thorns.
Another tale says that Bacchus was chasing a nymph when he was stopped by a thorn hedge which he commanded to become a hedge of roses; the nymph doubled back, and when he saw that the rose hedge would not stop her, he commanded it to be thorn again. The magic was not wholly effective and so now they grow together.
In Algonquian Indian etiological story the thorns were added by Gluskabe to prevent the animals from eating the flowers.
When Eve kissed a white rose in the Garden of Eden, it blushed with pleasure and has been pink ever since.
The 4th century Bishop Basil said the rose was thornless until the expulsion from the Garden of Eden. Many of the attributes of the rose were inherited by the Virgin Mary. In common with many other thorny plants it is said to have formed the "Crown of Thorns," the tree on which Judas hanged himself, and Christ's blood is said to have turned the rose red at the time of the Crucifixion.
Throughout the Teutonic area the rose belongs to the dwarfs or fairies and is under their protection. In many places it is customary to ask permission of their king before picking lest one lose a hand or foot. The Arabs say that the white rose sprang from the sweat of Mohammed on his journey from heaven. A Rumanian story tells of a princess who was bathing in a secluded pool. She was so beautiful that the sun passing overhead was stopped in his tracks. He stopped so long that the moon complained to the gods, who turned the princess into a white rose. Next day when the sun passed, the princess was embarrassed and she blushed; the flowers on top of the bush turned a deep red, those in the middle became pink, while those near the earth remained white. In Persia the nightingale cries out when a rose is picked and sings because of its love of the red rose which is stained with its blood. In India at one
time Brahma and Vishnu were of equal rank. One day they were discussing flowers and Brahma said that the lotus was the most beautiful of flowers. Vishnu showed Brahma the rose and he had to admit defeat.
In Persia the infant Zoroaster (Zarathustra) was placed on a bed of burning logs to die, but they turned into a bed of roses. Red roses were often connected in story with lire, and the ashes on which several Christian martyrs were burned turned into roses, but in their cases, too late. However, Zoroaster's couch was not the original "bed of roses" which refers to the Sybarites who slept on mattresses stuffed with rose petals.
In Rome at the time of the Empire roses were lavishly used to add to the luxury of banquets, often in quantities comparable to such modem fetes as the Festival of Roses in Los Angeles. The rose garden of King Midas was one of the wonders of the ancient world.
Anciently in Greece, Rome, and China, and more recently in Europe and England, the rose has become a funeral flower; in Switzerland the cemetery is often referred to as the Rosengarten, which in this allusion is a kind of cross between churchyard and heaven. In England it is customary to plant a rosebush at the head of the grave of a deceased lover who died before the wedding. In Wales a white rose is planted on the grave of a virgin and a red one on the grave of any respected person. A rose is often used in the decoration on the tombstone of a virgin.
Sub rosa, under the rose, means in secret, and refers to the ancient custom of hanging a rose over the council table to indicate that all present are sworn to secrecy.
This in turn may have sprung from the legend that Eros gave a rose to Harpocrates, god of silence, to keep him from revealing the indiscretions of Venus. At any event it is known to have been in use as early as 477 B.C. Up to quite recent times a rose in the decoration of the dining room ceiling was a gracious invitation to talk freely without fear, but this custom is no longer observed.
There are various references in story to persons being enchanted and turned into animals who regained their human form by eating a rose, as Apuleius in the Golden Ass (see ASS), and St. Denis, the patron of France. At one time in England the officiating clergy wore wreaths of roses on St. Barnabas' Day; in Rome there was a Rose
Sunday. In Germany the associations of the rose are not always happy. It has been worn as a punishment for immoral conduct. In much of Europe the red rose is an evil omen. Seeing the petals fall is a sign of death although in Germany this may be counteracted by burning some of the fallen petals. In Wales and parts of England, it is an ill omen when roses bloom out of season. In British Columbia, the Thompson Indians pass widows and widowers four times through a rose bush so that the thorns will purify them of the spirits of their dead mates. Whether singly or in chaplets, roses have been used as a chastity test (H432.1), signifying infidelity by fading or changing color. In parts of the southern United States, a folded petal is sometimes struck against the forehead; if it cracks, the person in mind loves you; if .it does not, your love is one-sided.
The use of the rose medicinally has continued unabated from tiie time of Hippocrates to the present day British Ministry of Health. The fruit, or hips, contain more than twenty times the amount of vitamin C found in oranges. Almost every part of the plant is used (root, bark, leaves, petals, fruit) and prepared in every conceivable way from delicious confection^ with sugar and honey to the bitter root-bark tea. Rose petals from the altar of Aphrodite w'ere used to cure Cyrus, King of the Medes and the Persians. In Greece the petals were used both internally and externally to cure the bite of mad dogs. Gerard recommends rose-petal conserve for "shak- ings and tremblings of the heart." The Romans believed that the rose would prevent drunkenness either by its presence, or by floating a petal in the cup. The North American Tewa Indians powder the dried petals and use them in a salve for sore mouth. Only a generation ago a sillabub of roses was recommended for sore throat, and a pint of claret in which a handful of rose petals had been boiled was considered a good compress for a sprain. In 1943 the people of England gathered 500 tons of rose hips and hundreds of pounds of dried petals for the manufacture of needed drugs, [JWH] rosemary According to Culpeper, an herb of the sun under the dominion of the Ram. Ophelia's famous line, "Rosemary, that's for remembrance," expressed the common knowledge of the day; for rosemary has been symbolic of remembrance, fidelity, and friendship since early times and in this connection was most frequently used as a funeral wreath and in wedding ceremonies. In medieval Germany, however, some brides wore it to guard against pregnancy. In ancient Greece, students wore rosemary twined in their hair while studying for examinations also "for remembrance" (i.e. to strengthen their memory) and because it was believed to bring success to any undertaking. It was one of the early strewing herbs both because of its pleasing odor and because it kept out moths, vermin, and evil spirits. A sprig under the bed induced sound sleep and protected from harm and nightmare. The Romans used rosemary to crown the heads of their guests and of their household gods. Some say this herb will thrive only for the righteous or where the woman rules the household. In the Netherlands it is called elf-leaf, and is a favorite haunt of these little people. Christian legend says that the rosemary opened up to give Mary and the infant Jesus shelter from Herod's soldiers on their flight into Egypt, hence its dull white flowers were given the blue color of the Virgin's mantle. Another Christian legend states that the shrub does not grow higher than Christ's height on earth, and that at the age of 33 it ceases to grow and increases only in breadth. This plant was probably introduced into England by the Romans, but it is also said to have come to England with Queen Philippa of Hainaut in the 14th century. In any event it has flourished there and is said to be more fragrant in England than in any other land. Making a box of rosemary wood and smelling it keeps one young; in Wales, cooking-spoons of the wood are believed to make everything more nutritious.
Because rosemary is a plant of remembrance, it is a sovereign remedy for all diseases of the brain and is strengthening to the mind in all forms. But its uses seem to have spread to the whole head, for besides the brain, a decoction of rosemary in wine is good for loss of speech, sore eyes, and to clear the complexion. The ashes or charcoal of rosemary wood were used in England to clean the teeth, and to this day it is used in preparations for the hair to prevent baldness. Culpeper recommends cigars rolled from the leaves to smoke for coughs and consumption. He also recommends the flowers with bread and salt the first thing in the morning to dispel wind, and a flower conserve to comfort the heart and prevent contagion. Bathing in rosemary water makes the old young again. The boiled leaves bound to the leg with linen cloths are good for gout. A tea brewed of the leaves is good for fevers, pains, and colds, and taken cold with an equal amount of wine it is excellent to restore lost appetite. A decoction of rosemary put into the beer barrel secretly was said to be a sure cure for drunkenness. See ST. AGNES EVE. [JWH]

Subject: RE: Origins: Rose-Briar Motif
From: Suzy Sock Puppet
Date: 13 Apr 13 - 09:38 AM

That's a lot of rose lore Jim :-) Unfortunately, they attach advertisements to youtube videos now. It takes a few moments for the song to begin.

It is the song "Brandy (You're a Fine Girl)" by Looking Glass, a one-hit wonder I think. Try to track it down and listen to it if you do not already know it. I think you'll understand why I posted it.