Origins: Rose-Briar Motif

Subject: RE: Origins: Rose-Briar Motif
From: GUEST
Date: 22 Apr 13 - 10:47 PM

Steve, love, Ribold and Guldborg and Earl Bran are the same story. And they both include the informant Carl Hood whom we don't see in the Douglas Tragedy at all. You mean to tell me that with all those Vikings assimilating all throughout those parts, not one could ever translate or teach a ballad to the natives? No. They had to wait for Jamieson's translation to do anything at all. Think about how ridiculous that line of logic really is, Steve, my knight in shining armour :-)

There's a statue of Sir Walter Scott in Selkirk, home of the Black Douglas, because Sir Walter put them on the map. Who knows? Maybe he wrote the Douglas Tragedy himself. He certainly could've. All he would have had to do is get Mr. Sharpe to agree to be his "supplier." Easy.

And I think also that the last verse about Douglas pulling up the briar is telling. Douglas was anti-Jacobite. I think this particular treatment of the the motif might be pointing to the fact that the motif was recognized by some as having been attached to a Jacobite love ballad of small stature. There is one version of the Douglas Tragedy that does have the love knot:

These twa grew, and these twa threw,         
Till they came to the top,
And when they could na farther gae,
They coost the lovers' knot.

For the most part in Douglas Tragedy, however, there is no love knot and technically this not the correct motif as it only meets 2 out of 3 of the criteria. Had there been a love knot, it would have been impossible for the Black Douglas to pull the briar up without also pulling up the rose.

Subject: RE: Origins: Rose-Briar Motif
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 23 Apr 13 - 11:16 AM

So, Susan, when were these Vikings wandering around Scotland then? If you are saying what I think you are saying you are way off the mark, about a thousand years or more.

I'm quite happy to go along with your theory that Scott substantially rewrote it, but he couldn't have written all of it because some of it was in the 17th century version 'The Child of Elle' and Scott didn't have any access at all to the Folio Ms. In fact it wasn't available to anyone but Percy and a few well-chosen friends until Child persuaded Furnivall to publish it by putting up some of the money in 1867. DT absolutely could not have been crafted out of EB. If your theory is correct then Scott or one of his suppliers must also have written the stall copy!

You're looking for logic in ballads??? Ye Gods!

Nearly finished my analysis.
On what grounds does Bronson include all of those short English songs in Lady Maisry? They are completely made up of commonplaces and could belong to any of a dozen ballads, if any.

Subject: RE: Origins: Rose-Briar Motif
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Apr 13 - 02:07 PM

Steve, "Earl Bran" is faithful to the Scandinavian. And, "Ribold and Guldborg" is so old, it has links to Norse mythology. A thousand years sounds about right. If you have parallel stories in two cultures, you can safely assume they were transmitted and passed down orally. Sheesh! What do you want? A handful of runes?

Recall what you just said Steve. Child put up money to have something published. Money is key in such endeavors is it not? So something is more authentic once printed is it? Reality is validated by documentation only?

Percy's "Scottish" ballad "Lord Thomas and Fair Annett" is also suspect to me. The documentation for "Lord Thomas and Fair Ellinor" 73D is much better. Earliest dates from 1677.

So, the rose-briar motif was not originally part of "Earl Bran" or "Lord Thomas and Fair ELLINOR."

I don't care if a million broadsheet copies of "The Douglas Tragedy" were blowing down a London street before one word of Earl Bran reached publication. The ballad is Earl Bran. The motif was stuck on the Douglas Tragedy. The Douglas Tragedy was adapted from Earl Brand.

Can we talk about Percy Steve? Let's talk about Percy abd then later we can sibg.
O Lilly Lally. O Lilly Lally...

Subject: RE: Origins: Rose-Briar Motif
From: Lighter
Date: 23 Apr 13 - 02:42 PM

> If you have parallel stories in two cultures, you can safely assume they were transmitted and passed down orally.

Not necessarily, and certainly not for a thousand years. What evidence makes you think otherwise?

The story of "The Three Musketeers" exists in both French and English, as well as in other languages.

It was not passed down orally.

It has not existed for a thousand years in oral tradition.

If you have closely corresponding *oral stories* in two *nonliterate cultures*, they probably do descend from a common ancestor, but where is the evidence that a complicated, unwritten story will survive in its early form even in outline for over a thousand years? And the ballads under consideration show no evidence of being remotely as old as you suggest they are.

Subject: RE: Origins: Rose-Briar Motif
From: Lighter
Date: 23 Apr 13 - 02:44 PM

Besides Robert Graves, the writings of Joseph Campbell and Bert Lloyd come distressingly to mind....

Romantics all (to be kind about it).

Subject: RE: Origins: Rose-Briar Motif
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Apr 13 - 03:19 PM

Oops. b=n :)

First if all, I do not see much resemblance at all between Earl Bran and Child of Elle. Where are the 7 brethren? Where's the lilly lally? No, the Douglas Tragedy was in no way derived from Child of Elle. It's from Earl Bran. Child of Elle is not a folk ballad. It's some sort of long complicated verse.

On Percy. I think this sums it up. This is from "Old Ballads," Frank Sidgwick:

"Afterwards he used it to help him in making the Reliques, though he altered its texts freely, and even tore some pages out (including KingEstmere) to send to the printer of the Reliques. These pages have of course disappeared, and we shall never know what was written on them, or how much Percy altered their contents to print in his book. But the manuscript, torn and incomplete as it is, still remains one of the ballad-collector's most valuable documents. After long concealment in private hands, it is now safe in the British Museum, where it can be seen any day exhibited in a case in the King's Library. Such is Percy's 'Folio Manuscript.'

Percy was Sir Walter Scott's inspiration,
O Lilly Lally...

Subject: RE: Origins: Rose-Briar Motif
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 23 Apr 13 - 06:01 PM

Whilst the ballad form existed during the medieval period only a handful of examples survive in manuscripts. The ballad as we know it can only be traced back to the early modern period. Most of the ballads in Child, for instance, can't be traced back any earlier than the 18thc and even the historical ones are mostly 16th/17thc based on the events described. Again a handful of these are about earlier events but that doesn't mean they were written then as ballads.

As I said before (Pay attention or at least look at your texts) DT has text in common with Child of Elle. It has NO TEXT in common with EB.
The Child of Elle is at least mid 17thc. There is absolutely no evidence to suggest EB is any older than the 1820s.

R&G may well have links to previous literature but as a ballad it can't be traced back to any earlier than the early-modern period. Syv I think, 1597.

Susan, you're starting to babble!

Subject: RE: Origins: Rose-Briar Motif
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 23 Apr 13 - 06:12 PM

A good friend of mine used to sing EB in the 60s and I fell in love with it, but I don't let that cloud my judgment on its likely origins.

Subject: RE: Origins: Rose-Briar Motif
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Apr 13 - 09:07 PM

Percy's "Child of Elle" was published in the reliques, that is, after Percy extended 11 stanzas into 50. But that's ok because as Sir Walter Scott himself observed, it was done in the "true style of gothic embellishment." If some of that text made it into "The Douglas Tragedy," that doesn't mean Earl Bran is not a real ballad from oral tradition.

You know what "phatic" means don't you English teacher? It is language that does not serve an informational but rather a social function. Often phatic phrases are nonsense words that are included in a folk song to enable people to join in the singing without having to know lyrics.

Aye lilly, O lally...

Derry, derry down...

Sometimes certain memorable floating verses can also serve that same function. Earl Bran has a definite oral (singing tradition), it has a real melody. It 's a real ballad. Why did Child classify "Child of Elle" and "Douglas Tragedy" under the title "Earl Bran"?

Gotta have those 7 brothers too. They are an integral part of the story...

Subject: RE: Origins: Rose-Briar Motif
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Apr 13 - 03:39 AM

"I'd be quite happy to ask Roy to adjudicate on this one. He's pretty much an expert on broadsides himself."
Is there any chance of your coming out from behind the protection of your referees and fighting your own battles here Steve?
I'd have thought you'd have learned your lesson in not hiding behind referees after the fiasco of choosing Child as one of your supporters, then having to dismiss him as being a product of his times.
As much as I admire the work done by Roy Palmer I have not the slightest interest in him providing you with 'references' to your case – if you are going to challenge the idea that the rural working class ever created their songs, or, as you have dismissed the idea that they even re-created them by claiming the hacks were even responsible for the later versions. Whoops sorry – did I say challenge, my mistake, you don't challenge, you dismiss, you don't argue your case, you arrogantly state it as fact – examples available if you want me to dig them up – don't have to go further than this thread.
If you are going to turn existing scholarship on its head by taking the creation of folk song out of the hands of 'the folk' you are going to have to do so on the basis of far more research than you have been able to produce so far.
By relying on researched dates you have removed these songs out of the context of the communities that made (IMO) and circulated them.
The first chapter of Palmer's 'Everyman' collection includes half-a-dozen songs which contains both seasonal and daily work routines that would be part of the everyday life of the farm worker.
Songs like The Treadmill Song give the daily/hourly prison routine.
Sea songs like Coasts of Peru show a familiarity with nautical equipment and its uses.
Songs from the textile industry reproduce pictures of the daily life of spinners and millworkers; the list is endless.
There is an authenticity in these songs that I refuse (without evidence) to believe to be within the capabilities of people you yourself have described as hacks most of whose other works have virtually died at birth.
All of this is easily verifiable – look at works by Samuel Bamford, Joseph Arch, George Sturt with his Bettsworth's Book', 'Alfred Williams, George Bourne..... and all the other writers of the time.   
Later works by researchers like the Hammonds, George Ewart Evans and Reg Groves verify the authenticity contained in any of our folk songs.
Put Stan Hugill's 'Shanties of the Seven Seas' alongside his 'Sailortown' and you see how the sea songs fit into the environments the describe.
It seems to me your 'research' goes nowhere near the work needed to back up your outrageous 90+% claims, and your constantly scurrying behind 'people who agree with you' is becoming tediously pathetic.
"Butter &CAA, otherwise known on broadsides as 'Cook's Courtship'."
Will you please stop patronising me – I've been singing the damn song for the last thirty-odd years and I've collected it twice from traditional singers - unlike you, I've done my homework on it, and I have not had to resort to non-existent 'facts' to explain it.
"some form of climbing aid like rungs or protruding bricks".
The process of cleaning chimneys in those times was to lower a small apprentice with a brush, down on a rope – every child who has read Kingsley's 'The Water Babies' knows that; to draw attention to this barbaric practice was one of the purposes of the book. The fact that you haven't been able to produce a single example of "ladders" or 'climbing bricks' backs it up.
"Broken Token"
Again you insist on your patronising tone – I am well aware of what a "broken token" is – sing them and have collected them.
I'll do you a deal – take a coin the size of a sixpence or a gold ring and try to break one in half and I'll make a donation to your favourite charity every time you succeed – a gimmal ring is obviously what is being referred to.
Not for the first time do you show inconsistency in your arguments – on the one hand you say:
"The Broken Token was as you say very common during the period when these songs were being made and common knowledge to all - NOT insider knowledge" – now were back to breaking sixpences in half.
The detail contained in these songs make them far more likely to be the work of the people whose experiences they describe rather than desk-bound hacks if this is not the case, produce your evidence rather than hiding behind references and made-up historical facts .
"If you'll BUY up my song"
Why "unfortunate"? I have never challenged the idea that these songs were taken from the tradition and sold on the streets – where on earth does "unfortunate" come into it.
"Your Irish travellers often call broadsides 'ballets'."
Not in my presence they didn't and I've never heard of it happening elsewhere – they called them "ballads" creating a three-level confusion (if not more); narrative songs, songs out of the "Ballad Boom (the Irish revival) and the song sheets are still referred to as "ballads" (not to mention the outpourings of the 40s and 50s crooners like Sinatra et al).
If you really want "more later" please start behaving like a serious researcher and not a punter at a racecourse by trying to involve "adjudicators" – adjudication all-but killed Irish music not too long ago.
By the way – a favour; we could really do without the patronising arrogance and presenting far-fetched theories as facts – from your own point of view, it always leaves the impression that you are blustering to hide ignorance and poor (or non) research. We've all been around far too long to be taken in by it anyway.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Origins: Rose-Briar Motif
From: GUEST
Date: 24 Apr 13 - 09:32 AM

"There was never ane o' my songs prentit till ye prentit them yourself, and ye hae spoilt them a'togither. They were made for singin' and no for readin', but ye hae broken the charm now, and they'll never be sung mair.""

If were teaching a course on these ballads, I would write that up on the board on the first day and spend the whole period talking about it. What does that mean?

Earl Bran has 3 lovely singing traditions in the Child TOME :-) Here let me blow some dust off.

7A is sung like this:
--------------------
Ay lally, O lilly lally
--------------------
All i the night sae early

7G is sung like this:
-------------------
Faldee faldee fal deediddle a dee
--------------------
And the brave knights in the valley

& in 7H it shifts a bit each time but is basically sung thus:
----------------------
Aye lally an lilly lally
----------------------
And the braw knights o Airly

I think that lilly lally thing is lovely. Lilly of the Valley is my favorite flower. I have a large patch of them. They will be up soon. Jim, did you know that lillies of the valley only release their scent directly into the air? You can't extract it like you do other flowers.

Child 7B, C, D, E, F & I are the Douglas Tragedy. They are texts that were turned into "ballads," not part of a singing tradition. The rose-brier motif was tacked on when the Douglas Tragedy was published along with the romantic legend that surrounds it (and the printer was paid I imagine). 75A, G & H don't have the motif because they don't need it. They have lilly lally :-)

The power of publishing to influence posterity is immense. It has been abused. Where is this copy of the Douglas Tragedy supplied by Sharpe? Does it exist? Even if it did, what could prove? That the printer was paid? That Blackhouse is a tourist attraction to this day because of Sir Walt? Excuse me while I don some gardening gloves and take a dive to the bottom of St. Mary's Loch. There's something down there that doesn't belong there...

Subject: RE: Origins: Rose-Briar Motif
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Apr 13 - 10:38 AM

"If were teaching a course on these ballads, I would write that up on the board on the first day and spend the whole period talking about it. What does that mean?"
One of the things we noticed was that singers who had learned songs from bound books tended to sing them exactly as they had learned them, while those printed on "ballads" were treated as "changeable" at the whim of the singer - a sort of respect for the published word.
Similarly, if the person who had passed on the song to another, either by teaching it or writing it down, was still living, the song remained unchanged.
The older singers tended to respect 'ownership' of songs in their community, certainly while their sources were living.
I understand that this was the case with Norfolk singer Harry Cox.
These were observation in passing; we never followed them up as far as I remember, so no hard-and-fast conclusions can be drawn from them.
This is part of what I mean by the effects of literacy on the tradition being by no means as straightforward or simple as some people would have us believe.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Origins: Rose-Briar Motif
From: Lighter
Date: 24 Apr 13 - 10:45 AM

> singers who had learned songs from bound books tended to sing them exactly as they had learned them, while those printed on "ballads" were treated as "changeable" at the whim of the singer - a sort of respect for the published word.

Sounds like the "book" singers may have been better educated (more books in their lives). Did "book" singers also learn many songs from broadsides? On the average, do we know about how many songs the "book" singers sang in contrast to the "sheet" singers?

Subject: RE: Origins: Rose-Briar Motif
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Apr 13 - 11:06 AM

All unknown territory I'm afraid Lighter.
It certainly wasn't a case of 'book singers' being better educated; on the contrary, the lesser literary skilled ones tended to be in awe of the published word.
Many singers learned the songs from ballad-sheets, but some of the bigger repertoire ones, (Tom Lenihan being an outstanding case) though he might have filled out part songs from them, always said that he didn't "trust them".
Again - no hard and fast rules.
Just a point - Walter Pardon, the last of the English 'big repertoire singers', made a point of writing down the songs his family songs - his main source being his uncle Billy, who was born in the 1860s I think.
Walter told us he never saw or heard of a broadside.
Harry Cox had a large collection of broadsides - Bob Thomson sorted them out for him before he left for America.
According to Bob, Harry was quite adamant that he never learned any of his songs from them - make of that what you will, but there was no reason for him to lie - it didn't matter to him one way or the other if people knew where he got his songs from.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Origins: Rose-Briar Motif
From: Lighter
Date: 24 Apr 13 - 12:26 PM

Interesting questions that no early collector could have been expected to imagine.

The study of sociology and communications has changed everything.

Subject: RE: Origins: Rose-Briar Motif
From: GUEST
Date: 24 Apr 13 - 12:29 PM

And while I was down in St. Mary's Loch I found something else! It's a broken token! A ring broke in 3 and I realized something...

There never was a legitimate "Prince Robert." I don't believe that Lord Abore is a mondegreen for Robert. Abore is a word that refers to how much has been born, tolerated, abided - that's what the word means. What do you think it would be like living all those years with a mother who was so cruel that she would rather see you dead, poisoned, than to allow you to marry your sweetheart? She couldn't have become that cruel just in time to poison him. He's Lord Abore. It was a perfectly good Irish-Scots ballad until Sir Walter Scott and his "near relative" Mrs. Christian Rutherford got a hold of it.

Strike Sir Walter Scott from the record. That means:

Child #7 Earl Bran (A, G, & H Only)
Child #87 (Does not belong in a book of E&S popular ballads)

The rose-brier motif is not part of either of these two singing traditions. Any fine singer who wants to add it, be my guest. Just sayin' it didn't start out there.

Subject: RE: Origins: Rose-Briar Motif
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 24 Apr 13 - 12:46 PM

I mentioned accompanying Bob on a visit to Harry Cox above [2nd post on this thread], later on publishing a transcript of the conversation & songs we recorded in Folk Review ~~ including Harry's view of the rose-briar motif in 'Barbara Ellen' and 'Lord Lovely' [as he called the two songs in question]. I went with Bob a couple more times, once I remember with another local Cambridge folksinger who was much gratified to meet Harry Cox. As a matter of historical record, the sorting out of many of the broadsides was done on the last of these visits, on which we were accompanied by my late wife Valerie. She and Bob did the sorting out together of the sheets, spread out on the big table in the middle of the room, while I sat opposite Harry beside the fireplace and engaged him in conversation. Whether Valerie and Bob got all the sorting done on that occasion, or whether Bob went back later to finish it off, I am not sure; but I think not, as he had come to rely on me as driver to take him over there as he could not drive at that time. It was our friend Roy Palmer, a Birmingham headmaster at the time as well as a noted folklorist, and folk critic for The Teacher newspaper of which Valerie was Features and Literary Editor, who put me in touch with Bob in the first place.

~M~

Subject: RE: Origins: Rose-Briar Motif
From: Lighter
Date: 24 Apr 13 - 01:11 PM

> Abore is a word that refers to how much has been born, tolerated, abided - that's what the word means.

Not according to the Oxford English Dictionary. It isn't there.

And why should it be any more than a fanciful name?

Subject: RE: Origins: Rose-Briar Motif
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Apr 13 - 01:17 PM

The singer's take on the song from an article by Tom Munnelly in Irisdh Folk Music Studies 1972-1973
Jim Carroll

(Spoken) Frank Feeney : He was going with Mary Flynn, do you see, and the mother got jealous, do you see, and she poisoned him. Because he wouldn't throw her up, do you see? . . .
Tom Munnelly : Is that name used, Abore? It's a very unusual name . . .
F.F. : 'Tis really a name like... do you know what I mean?        
Just that they put the . . . He was a        great lord, you know…. But…. Bore, I mean, that's a common name.
T.M. : Is it lord O'Bore or lord A-bore? . . .
F.F. : Lord O'Bore.
Hugh Shields Do you know) where your wife got that song? . . .
F.F. : She got it from her own mother.
T.M. : Have you any idea who Mary Flynn was? . . .
F.F. : She was a lady Eagar out of Blessington, out of Glending . . .
The mother didn't . . .
Paddy Tunney : That pair was a bit young, I suppose.
Recorded in the home of the singer, Frank Feeney (aged approximately 68), Leopardstown, Co. Dublin, December 1970. Melody notated by Hugh Shields.

Subject: RE: Origins: Rose-Briar Motif
From: Lighter
Date: 24 Apr 13 - 01:32 PM

> Abore is a word that refers to how much has been born, tolerated, abided - that's what the word means.

Not according to the Oxford English Dictionary.

It isn't there.

How can you be sure it isn't just a fanciful name? Or a distortion of "Aboyne" or something?

Subject: RE: Origins: Rose-Briar Motif
From: Lighter
Date: 24 Apr 13 - 01:34 PM

Sorry for the duplication.

Subject: RE: Origins: Rose-Briar Motif
From: Mrrzy
Date: 24 Apr 13 - 01:46 PM

In "O Mother go and make my bed" they aren't named, the true lovers, and we don't know why the man died, but the woman is singing of following to the grave, and then the red rose and the briar finish the song.

Subject: RE: Origins: Rose-Briar Motif
From: GUEST
Date: 24 Apr 13 - 02:12 PM

Lighter, I don't know why it's not Oxford's Dictionary. In wiktionary it's: v. Simple past of abear. (carry, bear; develop; put up with, thole, tolerate, abide). I think it is some older way of speaking.

Jim, O'Bore is a mondegreen for Abore and Mary Flynn is a common name. Notice how he looked to commoness of certain names to validate his response which means he don't really know. He's just pretty sure someone who lives nearby knows. The important thing here is that it's not Robert. You know, when Sir Walter published Prince Robert in 1803, he gave this preamble (capitals his):

PRINCE ROBERT
NEVER BEFORE PUBLISHED
FROM THE RECITATION OF A LADY, NEARLY RELATED TO THE EDITOR*

That's two ballads so far that he has misappropriated.

Subject: RE: Origins: Rose-Briar Motif
From: Don Firth
Date: 24 Apr 13 - 02:40 PM

Having reread some of this thread after a day or so's hiatus, I have two additional points:

First, I did NOT say that the rose and briar motif originated with the ballad "Barbara Allen" as someone here seemed to be wanting to argue about with me. I made the point that it was undoubtedly a "floater" that was appended sometime later.

And second, if you check a number of books dealing with "The Language of Flowers," you will find that they do not always agree on which flower means what, and it is conceivable that one could get into knock-down-drag-out wrangles over this issue that would rival the endless "what is folk music?" arguments.

So being dogmatic and inflexible on the subject leads folks to chasing each other in endless circles.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: Origins: Rose-Briar Motif
From: Don Firth
Date: 24 Apr 13 - 02:57 PM

Also:

Whether "book" singers sing a folk song exactly as written in the songbook, as contrasted with feeling free to modify a song if learned by listening to it, is moot.

Early on, I learned about the "folk process," and that singers make changes in songs and ballads, sometimes inadvertently (as Pete Seeger said, "Not because of their memory, but because of their 'forgettery.'"). So I felt free to alter a word or a line if it sang awkwardly, or for other reasons. But NOT indiscriminately. I had to have a good reason to do so, and make sure that I didn't change the meaning.

And I know other singers, both well-known and obscure, who do the same thing and for the same reasons.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: Origins: Rose-Briar Motif
From: Lighter
Date: 24 Apr 13 - 03:01 PM

Now I see. You meant the verb to "abear," not, as your post seemed to suggest, a nonexistent noun "abore" supposedly meaning "how much has been born, tolerated, abided."

"Prince Borne," "Prince Abided," or "Prince Tolerated" would mean that *he* is the one being tolerated by someone else.

If it means anything at all. And why should it? His name seems to be of no particular importance. We have real no idea of how it got there, and no reason to assume that contains any hidden meaning that one should be aware of in order to comprehend the story. And the story is what ballads are about.

"Abore" could simply be an invention, or it could have been a mishearing of something other than "Robert." If Frank Feeney assumed that "O'Bore" had no meaning beyond being a name, why should any other singers, including us, think differently about "Abore"?

Subject: RE: Origins: Rose-Briar Motif
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Apr 13 - 03:31 PM

"Jim, O'Bore is a mondegreen for Abore and Mary Flynn is a common name". Abore"
Careful about making definitive statements Susan - too many problems with that one. As far as I'm concerned, the first stop in all this is the information you have immediately at hand.
The singer, Frank Feeney, from Leopardstown, South Dublin (home of the famous horse races) gives the information that "She was a lady Eagar out of Blessington, out of Glending" - Blessington is in Wexford - south west of Dublin.
According to 'Joyce's Place Names', just over the border in Co. Carlow, is a townland named Both or Bough, giving its name to 'Rathbough, among other local features - literally 'Hill of the Cow'.
Taking all these facts together - I am tempted to guess at Lord O'Bore = Lord of Bore = Lord Of Bough (possibly pronounced Baugh) - by no means definitive, but a clue to the rationale of the singer - maybe.
If Frank Feeney had been a non-literate Traveller, either this, or Burr, in County Offaly, would have been my strong guess.
It is dangerous to arrive at definitive explanations for these things.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Origins: Rose-Briar Motif
From: GUEST
Date: 24 Apr 13 - 03:38 PM

I know. The sweet briar is a sacred flower for devotees of Mary. I might have to plant some near my statue, next to my roses, see if they do anything :-)

I just saw Steve on another thread and he says he knows of a London broadside c.1685 "Fair Margaret and Sweet William." He's always holding out in me. Well Steve, I have Douce Ballads I (72A) Fair Margaret's Misfortune. C.1720 with a notation that it should be sung to the tune of Lord Thomas. That would be Douce Ballads (120b) Lord Thomas and Fair Ellinor. c.1677.

Steve, wouldn't that mean that Fair Margaret and Sweet William was derived from Lord Thomas and Fair Ellinor, that it could best be described as a kinder gentler text to fit the same tune? Wouldn't one text need to predate the other in order to provide the tune for it. If Lord Thomas has his own familiar tune in 1677 and Fair Margaret and Sweet William are still directing the singer to the other tune in 1720, that's as pretty slow growth period, don't you think? Not to worry. Percy took care of that.

You should try to see if you can locate the part of Percy's folio that has "Lord Thomas and Fair Annett." I wonder if it's one of the parts that is missing- or if he alterred it in any way. It's supposed to be at the British Museum. I haven't gotten around to writing them yet. Sometimes these curator librarian people are helpful. Sometimes they're not :-)

Remember "Danny Boy" Steve. You had alternate texts floating around for the same tune. Eventually one prevailed.

Subject: RE: Origins: Rose-Briar Motif
From: GUEST
Date: 24 Apr 13 - 03:45 PM

Douce Ballads I (120b). How I hate typing on this tiny keyboard! Typos constantly :-(

Subject: RE: Origins: Rose-Briar Motif
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Apr 13 - 04:01 PM

Sorry - missed the essential ingredient of all this - Frank Feeney learned the song from his wife - a Carlow woman.
Must go - Murdoch awaits.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Origins: Rose-Briar Motif
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 24 Apr 13 - 05:38 PM

The earliest extant English ballad that contains the rose/briar motif is indeed Fair Margaret's Misfortune etc. a variant of Child 74 printed by Sarah Bates at the Sun and Bible. I have seen estimates of the date of this as 1700 and 1720 but Wm Chappell who is usually very reliable with these dates gives it as 1685. The Bates family were printing over quite an extensive period but the S. for Sarah and the address make the dating more precise.

Here are the final 3 stanzas as printed. I've given them letters A B C for later reference.

A
Margaret was buried in the lower Channel (Chancel)
Sweet William in the higher
Out of her breast there sprung a rose
And out of his a briar.

B
They grew as high as the church-top
Till they could grow no higher
And then they grew in a true lover's knot
Which made all people admire.

C
There came the clerk of the parish
As you this truth shall hear
And by misfortune cut them down
Or they had now been there.

Looking at ALL of the English language uses of the motif I see nothing that couldn't have derived easily from this, including the Scottish birk variants.

Jamieson's lengthy notes (1814 'Illustrations' on the net in Google Books) on Ribold and Guldborg, including much information on other Nordic variants such as the HildeBRAND versions, were available to whoever put together EB. Why would Scott or your proposed writer of DT take only part of the story from EB?

Whilst Child does indeed mention the connections of 74 with 73 'Lord Thomas and Fair Annet' I don't think he mentions that on the Douce copy someone has written 'To ye tune of Lord Thomas and Fair Annet'.
The early broadside copies of 73 don't contain the birk/briar motif but the later Scottish copies do, the earliest being one sent to Percy in 1765.

Of the other ballads that have picked up the motif, Child 76 'The Lass of Roch Royal' has a version that can be traced back to c1730, and one version of Child 75 'Lord Lovel' can be traced back to 1770. All of the others can be traced back no further than the 1820s and are likely derivative, not necessarily directly from FM&SW, but ultimately (IMO).

When we see the Scottish 'birk/briar' in stanza A, stanza B always has the plants growing near and 2 lovers dear, lacking the 'true lover's knot', whereas the earlier (IMO) 'rose/briar' is always consistently followed by the 'true lover's knot' in stanza B.

The latter combination is remarkably consistent in Barbara Allen versions considering the large number of variants, even including the 5 English versions given in Bronson that have the motif. The who gets the rose and who gets the briar situation is fairly consistent with the behaviour of the baddy/goody of the piece. In BA the rose is frequently red but there are 3 versions where it is white. It would appear that Campbell's politics have spread into America!

Stanza C is rare in oral tradition but crops up in the A version of Lord Lovel where an old woman cuts the plants down; Lady Alice A version has a priest do the honours (B has the wind doing it). A version of Fair Janet sent to Scott by Laidlaw has a French lord pull up the plants (possibly what inspired Scott to make Black Douglas chuck them in a pond). Incidentally, none of these seem to be implying that the cutting down/pulling up was a vicious act, except for Scott.

I'll hang onto my notes in case anyone wants further info, but it all looks fairly straightforward to me, nothing astounding.

For a much more in-depth analysis of this motif and many others I can recommend Fleming Andersen's 'Commonplace and Creativity'.

Subject: RE: Origins: Rose-Briar Motif
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 24 Apr 13 - 06:25 PM

'fiasco of choosing Child as one of your supporters, then having to dismiss him as being a product of his times.'

Jim
Only a fool would pretend that Child was perfect. He didn't have access to a mountain of stuff we have today and as you imply he was sometimes hampered by his own background, but I don't know anyone, academic or otherwise who thinks that the work he did has ever been surpassed. Even the great Svend Grundtvig in his own day thought Child was the man for the job. Bronson did a marvellous job with the tunes but for understanding of the ballads Bronson doesn't come anywhere near the depth of scholarship.

You continue to go way over the top in misquoting me, Jim. I have never challenged the fact that the rural working class made songs and as for re-creating them nor did I deny this. I even gave you examples of both. What I said yet again was the rural working class did not create the bulk of the songs in the corpus collected by the likes of Sharp. And on the other matter I simply stated that SOME of the re-creation was done by the hacks taking some material from oral tradition or from other print sources and reworking them, and there are plenty of examples of this. This doesn't mean that I don't believe much of it was altered in oral tradition.

Jim,
The climbing boys were employed in the cleaning of the ordinary town house chimneys which were narrow. The chimneys I'm referring to would not have been climbed in this way because they were far too wide to use this method. You could actually walk into most of them. In the examples I have read the CLIMBING boys had to actually climb UP the chimney, but I've been reading factual accounts not fiction.

Where did you get your 'desk-bound' hacks from? Certainly not from me. They most likely wrote their pieces out in the tavern.

Some of the songs you quote definitely fall into the insider knowledge bracket and some would come into the other 10%, but some, 'Treadmill Song', would not fall into insider knowledge (except literally of course!) Some of the hacks might well have got that 'insider knowledge' first hand. But seriously, don't you think that everyone from the lower classes at that time would know exactly what went on in the prisons?

Okay you neatly sidestepped my leading to 'Come-all-ye', and I'll add in all of the variants of the first line that goes something like ' As I walked out'. If you go to the Bodleian Ballads website and type in the first line search box say 'Come all...' and 'As I...' you will find hundreds of songs that fit this. Have a look at how many actually made it into the corpus under discussion. Quite a small proportion, but a large percentage of the corpus under discussion do start like this. This is just one of the stylistic devices much more common on broadsides. (However I am well aware that this stylistic device was also used extensively in Ireland by the hedge poets)

Subject: RE: Origins: Rose-Briar Motif
From: GUEST
Date: 24 Apr 13 - 07:13 PM

Sorry Jim, I was being kind of flip there. My point was that it is probably not a mondegreen for Robert. However, when I first saw it on an Irish ballad I thought, "Abore? They must mean O'Bore." People always strive for things to make sense. When they lack a knowledge of some detail in a song, some reference, they usually alter or fill it in with something that works for them. Phonetically, Abore and O'Bore are akin. Because of that, in a land where so many names are preceded by O', it's the most natural assumption to make. That's why I question why a mondegreen like Abore would persist if it had no basis in tradition, even if it were something lost in immediate memory. In any case, neither sounds like Robert.

Lighter, forget about the a entirely. It is simple past tense of bear, tolerate etc. So it's like Lord bore, as in he bore. Unusual. Maybe something Gaelic? I found this in MacBain's dictionary:

abar- confluence; only in Pictish place names: Old Gaelic (Book of Deer) abbor; Welsh aber, Old Welsh aper, Celtic ad-bero-, root ber; See beir. Modern Gaelic pronounces it obair (so in 17th cent.), which agrees with the Old Welsh oper; this suggests od-bero-, "out flow", as against the "to flow" of ad-bero-. The od is for ud, allied to English out. Aporicum: *ati-boro-n (Holden).

Subject: RE: Origins: Rose-Briar Motif
From: Lighter
Date: 24 Apr 13 - 07:41 PM

The Picts quit giving place names around the fourth or fifth century. If "Abore/O'Bore" is from a place name, where is it?

Not that it much matters. Short of startling additional information, it would still just be a place name.

I don't think it affects the story or the song in any way, especially since singers - then and now - impose whatever "meaning" they like on the events of a ballad story.

As I once showed, "Johnny, I Hardly Knew Ye" (written in 1867) started out as slapstick comedy. Within a hundred years it was universally accepted as tragedy.

Ergo, almost anything is possible in folk song.

Subject: RE: Origins: Rose-Briar Motif
From: GUEST
Date: 24 Apr 13 - 09:25 PM

Steve, Douglas Tragedy is an amalgamation. It seems to have drawn from multiple sources:

I understand there were two traditional singing versions of Earl Bran courtesy of the Laidlaws at Sir Walter Scott's disposal. That's a good start.

You mentioned Jamieson's translation of Ribold & Guldborg, however, I don't see any direct relationship there-just the detail of the 7 brothers. You have to remember that just because Jamieson published, doesn't mean he's the only person capable of translating Danish. Whether brothers or King's men pursued is probably not as big a deal as I first thought. It is more likely that the publication of the Douglas Tragedy inspired the translation. Who knows? In it's time, "Minstrelsy" made a big splash.

Fair Margaret & Sweet William were definitely invoked as the names for the unhappy couple. The name of Douglas was invoked as well. "Child of Elle" in Percy's Reliques was used (as you point out they have text in common). Sir Walter Scott was a great follower of Percy and had plenty of exposure to "Reliques."

At the time the Douglas Tragedy materialized, the motif was in circulation, so the person who performed this synthesis attached the motif as well. Because it says "kirk" and "quier" and not "higher chancel" and "lower" (as consistently appears in Fair Margaret and Sweet William), I'd say he took it from Lord Lovel.

The motif itself in the Douglas Tragedy is likewise an amalgamation. Half traditional and half variation.

It's a contrived piece Steve. Prince Robert is contrived as well. I think Sir Walter is a more of a carnival barker than a song collector. We should talk about Fair Margaret and Sweet William.

Actually 1685 sounds about right for Fair Margaret and Sweet William. Here's a link to view the Douce ballad:

http://ballads.bodleian.ox.ac.uk/view/sheet/30012

Note where it says "MS annotations of title: To the tune of Lord Thomas or Lord Thomas he was..."

Subject: Lyr Add: EARL BRAN
From: GUEST
Date: 24 Apr 13 - 09:52 PM

Actually it was one version of Earl Bran that Sir Walter Scott had courtesy of the Laidlaws. To be clear, here it is:

Earl Bran- Laidlaw- (22 d. Abbotsford) Child A
Child A."Scotch Ballads, Materials for Border Minstrelsy," No 22 d. In the handwriting of William Laidlaw. Scott has written at the head, Earl Bran, another copy. At the time when Sir Walter Scott was collecting the materials for this work, the farm of Blackhouse was tenanted by the father of his attached friend, and in latter days factor (or land-steward), Mr. William Laidlaw.

EARL BRAN

1 Earl Bran's a wooing gane;
Ae lalie, O lilly lalie
He woo'd a lady, an was bringing her hame
O the gae knights o Airly

2 . . . . .
They met neither wi rich nor poor.

3. Till they met wi an auld palmer Hood,
Was ay for ill, an never for good.

4. 'O yonder is an auld palmer Heed:
Tak your sword an kill him dead.'

5 ' Gude forbid, O ladie fair,
That I kill an auld man an grey hair.

6 'We'll gie him a an forbid him to tell;'
The gae him a an forbad him to tell.

7. The auld man than he's away hame,
He telld o Jane whan he gaed hame.

8 'I thought I saw her on yon moss,
Riding on a milk-white horse.

9. 'I thought I saw her on yon muir;
By this time she's Earl Bran's whore.'

10 Her father he's ca'd on his men:'
Gae follow, an fetch her again.'

11 She's lookit oer her left shoulder:'
O yonder is my father's men!

12 'O yonder is my father's men:
Take my cleadin, an I'll take thine.'

13 'O that was never law in land,
For a ladie to feiht an a knight to stand.

14 'But if yer father's men come ane an ane,
Stand ye by, an ye'll see them slain.

15 'If they come twae an twae,
Stand ye by, an ye'll see them gae.

16 'And if they come three an three,
Stand ye by, an ye'll see them die.'

17 Her father's men came ane an ane,
She stood by . . .

18 Than they cam by twae an twae,. . . . .

19 Than they cam by three an three,. . . . .

20 But ahint him cam the auld palmer Hood,
An ran him outthro the heart's blood.

21 'I think I see your heart's blood:''
It's but the glistering o your scarlet hood.'

Subject: RE: Origins: Rose-Briar Motif
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Apr 13 - 04:08 AM

Steve
"Only a fool would pretend that Child was perfect"
I mentioned Child only because you used him as a defence for your arguments - quote in full.
"I must be mixing with the wrong people, Jim. These scholars! I don't know! They don't know nuffin! That Professor Child, who was he anyway!"
You chose to introduce them into the argument, not me, and now, just as you have done with Hindley and his knowledge of the" country songs" he was describing, you are choosing to question Child's scholarship to make your case – personally I find that more than a little arrogant to undermine the abilities of our greatest ballad scholar in this way.
Child was familiar with the broadsides and his description showed that he not only didn't he reckon them very much, but he differentiated between their style and that of the ballads he was working on.
"I have never challenged the fact that the rural working class made songs and as for re-creating them nor did I deny this"
Throughout this you have put down the local song traditions as the work of "gifted" and "retired individuals" and have attempted to isolate the practice to Ireland, suggesting the English rural working class was too busy "earning a living" to make songs – I will dig out your original statement if you insist, but you're putting me to a great deal of bother for somebody who is offering nothing in return except a few made-up-on-the-spot 'facts':
"You may well be able to point out plenty of examples of gifted individuals in rural communities making songs. I gave some examples myself. Ireland seems to have been one of those places."
These local songs were in no way different from our traditional songs other than in the local nature of their subjects, they were part of our oral tradition and they existed all over the English-speaking world and beyond; some of them even ended up on broadsides – give you an example of one of the finest and most epic if you like.
"What I said yet again was the rural working class did not create the bulk of the songs in the corpus collected by the likes of Sharp."
No you didn't Steve – you said 90-odd percent of our folk song repertoire started life on the broadside presses, you included the centuries-old ballads in this ridiculous claim and you sneered at and described as 'naive romantics' those who disagree with you; in my case suggesting that my knowledge was a century out of date.
Your goalposts seem to be fitted with wheels going by the regular way you move them to suit your arguments.
"I gave some examples myself."
Where did you do this – I must have missed that one?
"And on the other matter I simply stated that SOME of the re-creation was done by the hacks"
Again you try to dodge responsibility for your claims – by bringing in the argument that the hacks created the later versions of the songs when you did, you undermine the whole idea of an oral tradition – the hacks re-wrote virtually every traditional song they got their hands on – their clunky ham-fistedness is all over their end-products. It is fairly easy to spot unchanged broadside versions of the songs by their poor use of the language – in my opinion they earned the sobriquet "hack" – a term you regularly use.
"I've been reading factual accounts not fiction"
Oh – for crying out loud!
You have been given a link to the history of chimney sweeping – I could easily have given you Mahew or any other contemporary social historian – if these accounts are wrong give us your alternative history.
"Some of the hacks might well have got that 'insider knowledge' first hand. "
More "what ifs" again.
"Okay you neatly sidestepped my leading to 'Come-all-ye'"
I sidestepped nothing Steve – now you are deliberately distorting my position -I DO NOT "SIDESTEP" - THAT IS WHAT YOU DO – how dare you suggest otherwise.
I pointed out that there was no argument in the claim that traditional songs were used for the broadsides – stop lowering my arguments to your level.
"As I walked out"
There is no indication whatever that commonplaces such as "As I roved out" were borrowed by the folk from the broadsides or vise versa
"However I am well aware that this stylistic device was also used extensively in Ireland by the hedge poets"
Were they?
I think you will find that the hedge schools drew their inspiration from Greek and Latin classical literature and not from the "Come-all-ye's" – a term still widely used in Ireland – very much chalk and cheese and not unsimilar to the stilted language of many of the broadsides.
I've included an example below from the excellent little book 'The Hedge Schools of Ireland by P J Dowling – still available.
I indulged you in your 20-song challenge – your somewhat ingenuous objections to the few I have put up so far suggests that neither of us will live long enough to get halfway thought the list – how about some solid facts to back up your case rather than the "makie-ups you have given so far?
Jim Carroll

'Long has been my weary wandering, without one living soul to bear me company,
I have come from the distant North, from far Bananloch, I have journeyed thence on foot,
I longed to reach the dwellings of the sages, whose houses are in Killamey, by the waters of Lough Lein;
I longed to hear them utter the music of their verses;
I longed to study with them - to be guided by their lore.
'When I left my home in Galway, high hopes surged within my breast;
I reckoned on my talents and on my learning too.
I brought this lore, these talents, To the highminded, open-hearted sons of the land of Kerry.
But I lost the sweet boon of health.
I made no friends by the way; I became an outcast from kith and kin.'

There are touching references to the kindness and hospitality shown him. He tells us:

'With tenderest compassion they helped me in my need;
A noble beauteous lady... snatched me from the grave.'

And again he says:
'Though long I tarried,
None would let me feel the burden of a boon conferred.'
His hostess was a lady of good family, and for those days comparatively wealthy.

He addresses her:
'Gracious and illustrious lady, whom the Son of God
Loveth for bounteous deeds
Thy charity is not in vain.
The priest, the monk, the scholar bless thee!
Thou hast the blessing of the maids who seek no earthly spouse.'

Subject: RE: Origins: Rose-Briar Motif
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Apr 13 - 04:31 AM

Lighter
"If "Abore/O'Bore" is from a place name, where is it?"
Rural Ireland is divided into ancient 'Townlands', which don't appear on regular maps - sort-of old postal or zip codes; they are usually bordered by rivers or streams.
From Joyce's description in his 'Irish Names of Places' "Bough" is possibly one of these in County Carlow - where Frank Feeney's wife came from - he learned the song from her.
'Townlands' have been in continual use for centuries and still are - our post lady swears by them!
We live in Knockliscrane (The hill where corn was burned -according to Joyce) and our next townland is Poulawillan (William's hole - don't ask!)
Wherever Mrs Feeney got the song from it is probably a localised rationalisation - it happens all the time and is an indication of the level of involvement and ownership the singers placed on the songs.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Origins: Rose-Briar Motif
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 25 Apr 13 - 09:25 AM

Jim,
'Sea songs like Coasts of Peru show a familiarity with nautical equipment and its uses.'

Some sea songs indeed do just that, but if you can find me a BRITISH version of 'The Coast of Peru' let alone an English one I'd be greatly obliged. We currently sing this American song in the group I sing with.

"I gave some examples myself."

'Mutton Pie' a cornkister from my native East Riding.

Jim, it was you who moved the goalposts over to including the Child Ballads and I pointed out that there weren't that many Child ballads in the corpus under discussion.

I UNDERMINE nothing of the oral tradition and am insulted by your suggestion. What goes on in the oral tradition has very little to do with origins.

I have not refuted any of your suggestions about climbing boys. See my latest comments on this. By the early 19thc most chimneys in ordinary houses were of the narrow type but there were still plenty of the old type in the larger houses where they could affords to employ a cook and probably several other servants. A grown man would have had a job getting up one of the narrow chimneys used by climbing boys and considering there was already a fire lit....I can't believe I'm actually arguing the toss over a fictional ballad obviously originating in the supper rooms in the towns.

Subject: RE: Origins: Rose-Briar Motif
From: Lighter
Date: 25 Apr 13 - 09:34 AM

> I can't believe I'm actually arguing the toss over a fictional ballad

They do have that effect on people, as this entire thread demonstrates.

Subject: RE: Origins: Rose-Briar Motif
From: Lighter
Date: 25 Apr 13 - 09:54 AM

Jim, Joyce also mentions a townland of Bough in Monaghan.

He derives the name from Irish "both," a hut, cabin, tent, etc. Were people in the habit of referring to each other by their townland? Would a "Prince" of one sound plausible even in a story? Or would it sound more like "Mayor of Zip Code 10022 in Manhattan"? (Of course, any answer might be conjectural at this point.)

Unsurprisingly, there seems to be no Pictish connection, and probably, IMO, no connection to the original text of the ballad. But "Prince of the Tents" may fire the imagination.

("Prince of the Huts," not so much....)

Subject: RE: Origins: Rose-Briar Motif
From: GUEST
Date: 25 Apr 13 - 10:29 AM

Jim, this idea of ownership I believe is on the whole a good thing. Unlike most people around me, I believe change is supposed to happen as slowly and deliberately as possible. You always want to make sure you don't throw the baby out with the bathwater.

I mentioned earlier I believe melody is much more important than "text" when it comes to the question of ownership of a song (a popular or familiar melody points to a singing tradition). So I was a little vexed when I saw this written in a review of Dervish's album "Travelling Show" in the Irish Music Review:

"Indeed, the only traditional song on the entire album is a rendition of the Child ballad Lord Lovel, given its alternative title here of Lord Levett. Yet, for some obscure reason, Jordan has decided to set this to her own air rather than the one generally used for the last two centuries – and it just doesn't work."

Huh? Don't you wish you could talk back to these people sometimes?

So there's s traditional tune for Lord Levett? OK, let's hear it! I liked Cathy Jordan's rendition of Lord Levett. This is pretty harsh criticism for people who probably can't compose and sing like her.

And the moral of this story is, if you change the name to Donegal like they did over in Galway, they'll let you sing a different tune. Ah, but different than what?

One little thing I liked about Cathy Jordan's approach is that she did not name the lass. Instead of "Lady Anne Sweet Belle stood by his side" she says, "And by his side stood his own true love." She has a different melody and thus different phrasing. In Nora's phrasing that might be something like "Standing there by his side, his own true love.." But anyway, I like the innovation, don't you? Anne Sweet Belle, Oonzabel, Hounsibelle, Nancybell who needs it? :-)

Subject: RE: Origins: Rose-Briar Motif
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Apr 13 - 01:28 PM

"find me a BRITISH version of 'The Coast of Peru'"
If you don't know you damn well should that English language sea songs, because of the nature of the work and their transmission, were international, the only ones that could be identified as belonging to any specific nation were ones that were in 'German' and 'French' and 'Russian', and even these were suspect suspect if that particular nation had ever had a nation - read your Hugill.
"I gave some examples myself."
Then you should know better than to make stupid claims like "the English were too busy earning a living to write songs" - or was this somebody else?.
I have been pointing out that working people have always made songs and you have been putting it down to "a few talented (retired) individuals in order to justify your claim.
"...undermined nothing of the oral tradition and am insulted by your suggestion."
You undermine everything about the oral tradition starting with that it was created by the equivalent of today's boy bands (I'm pretty sure you acknowledged that this was your view, but it doesn't matter - you have constantly insisted that the English rural workers bought their songs rather than made them themselves - amounts to the same thing).
When somebody questioned you about versions you claimed they were largely created on the presses too, leaving the people to have purchased their culture. This also removes any value in the songs as part of our oral history.
You talk about me being out-of-date yet you are busy chipping away at the idea of a creative English working class culture, having admitted that the Irish and Scots are a creative people.
By the way - I have never included the Welsh in these discussions because I have no knowledge whatever of that culture even they were near neighbours to my native Liverpool for 25 years of my life - out of my depth there.
Chimney sweeps
Of course you have denied it - you've described the idea of boys going up chimneys as "fiction"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chimney_sweep
More later
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Origins: Rose-Briar Motif
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Apr 13 - 01:32 PM

"had ever had a nation"
Should read "empire"
Meant to add - no ladders or climbing bricks in chimneys - just lads sent up or down them - you would have produced evidence had there been any.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Origins: Rose-Briar Motif
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 25 Apr 13 - 02:34 PM

Of course you have denied it - you've described the idea of boys going up chimneys as "fiction"

Jim, you're ranting!

So how did they clean these big wide chimneys in those big old houses then, Jim?

Subject: RE: Origins: Rose-Briar Motif
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Apr 13 - 03:12 PM

"So how did they clean these big wide chimneys in those big old houses then, Jim?"
Been there - done that - they "footed and backed" their way up as described in the links you were given - chimneys narrowed and bent as soon as they rose above the level of the fireplaces - diagrams included in links. Where the tops were unreachable the child was lowered by rope from the roof - Mayhew, the history of chimney sweeps and the wiki link all point this out. This was also was described in the Kingsley novel you dismissed so offhandedly - the author was a Christian Socialist who campaigned on childrens' issues and The Water Babies was part of the campaign.
You really are twisting on this one Steve; if you have any evidence of ladders or climbing bricks produce it - otherwise leave it - you are beginning to be both insulting and embarrassing
Point I missed earlier
"moved the goalposts over to including the Child Ballads"
Now you are just lying Steve. Our first argument was about The Cruel Mother - I was attracted by your sneery and dismissive tone, I was told by you that it was produced by a hack.
You did the same with 'The Demon Lover' where you stated that most of the ballads originated in print.
You asked did anybody take Lord Lovell seriously - back once again to the ballads.
You never claimed any limitation when I mentioned David Fowler - again ballads.
When I gave you the broken token songs you offered to substantiate your claims by going back to the 18th century
When I pointed out that you couldn't possibly have compared broadside texts because our knowledge of the oral repertoire only goes as far as the end of the 19th century, you brushed that aside and continued to insist that your 90odd% figure was right - no mention of only restricting yourself to the Sharp and co material - that became an addition by you at a very late stage.
Now go away and get your story straight.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Origins: Rose-Briar Motif
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Apr 13 - 03:55 PM

Lighter
Townlands appear to have always been part of identifying people in rural Ireland as far as I can see note the quote from Frank Feeney above]
"She was a lady Eagar out of Blessington, out of Glending"
I'm not trying to make any more of this than to point out how singers claimed ownership and identify with there songs - as this is the only version of the song in Ireland it seems logical to suggest that this is what has happened here, in this case by somebody along the line which ended with Mrs Feeney of Carlow.
You are right about Joyces' "hut, cabin, tent, " - he mentions hill of the cow, but rejects it - my mistake.
Below is the full quote from volume one of Joyce.
Susan.
Ownership is very much a mixed blessing - Norfolk singer Walter Pardon was once approached by another singer from a few miles away and was warned off giving them away because "once you do they're no longer yours"
His reply - "They're not my songs, they're everybody's and it would be wrong to let them die with me".
Jim Carroll

Bough, which is merely an adaptation of Both, the name of a townland in Carlow, and of another in Monaghan. Raphoe in Donegal is called in the annals Rath-both, the fort of the huts. In the Tripartite Life it is related that while St. Patrick was at Dagart in the territory of Magdula, he founded seven churches, of which Both-Domhnaigh (the tent of the church) was one;
which name is still retained in the parish of Bodoney in Tyrone. There is an old church near Dungiven in Londonderry, which in various Irish authorities is called Both-Mheidhbhe [Vevn], Maive's hut, an old pagan name which is now modernised to Bovevagh. Bohola, a parish in Mayo, takes its name from a church now in ruins, which is called in " Ily Fiachrach," Both-Thola, St. Tola's tent; and in the parish of Templeniry, Tipperary, there is a townland called Montanavoe,
in Irish Mointean-a'-boith, the boggy land of the tent.
We have the plural (botha) represented by Boho, a parish in Fermanagh, which is only a part of its name as given by the Four Masters, viz., the Botha or tents of Muintir Fialain, this last being the name of the ancient tribe who inhabited the
district: Bohaboy in Galway, yellow tents.
Almost all local names in Ireland beginning with Boh (except the Bohers), and those also that end-with -boha and -bohy, are derived from this word. Thus Bohullion in Donegal represents the Irish Both-chuillinn, the hut of the holly, i. e.
surrounded with holly-trees. Knockboha, a famous hill in the parish of Lackan, Mayo, is called in " Hy Fiachrach," Cnoc-botha, the hill of the hut; and Rnocknaboha in Limerick and Tipperary, has the same meaning.
There are two diminutives of this word, viz., Bothdn and Bothog [bohaun, bohoge], both of which are in very common use in the south and west of Ireland, even among speakers of English, to denote a cabin or hut of any kind. Bohaun is the name of four townlands in Galway and Mayo ; and we find Bohanboy (yellow little hut) in Donegal. The other, Bohoge, is the name of a townland in the parish of Manulla, Mayo.

Subject: RE: Origins: Rose-Briar Motif
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 25 Apr 13 - 06:06 PM

I have all of Stan Hugill's books. I take it you are referring to Shanties FTSS. Sea shanties, yes, but very few American ballads figure in English repertoires. I repeat, in which English collection is there an English version of Coast of Peru?

Jim,
As pointed out before, the 'straight story' is on the TSF website of which you are a member.

In this thread I merely pointed out to you that nearly a third of the Child Ballads had their earliest version as street literature, which at first you denied. Incidentally I've found a couple more since then.

I'm going to be off-line for a while after tomorrow, and after that I suggest we stop hijacking other people's threads and start our own cutting out all the sniping and detours. I'll start off if you like by stating my case in a short simple summary and then you can take what you like from that. I'm happy to include those Child Ballads that occur in the corpus under discussion, but if you want to discuss the Child Ballads as a whole I suggest we do this in a separate thread as it can get quite confusing otherwise.

Subject: RE: Origins: Rose-Briar Motif
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 25 Apr 13 - 07:01 PM

This might be my last word on the matter of rungs for a while.

Jim,
either Google 'rungs in large chimneys'
or 'British Chimney Sweeps: Five Centuries of Chimney Sweeping.' It's on Google Books?isbn=1566633451

No need to apologise.

Can't do blue clickys

Subject: RE: Origins: Rose-Briar Motif
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 25 Apr 13 - 07:10 PM

http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=WllChMIBGM8C&lpg=PA74&dq=ru

Okay I tried following the blue clicky thing. Hope this works.