Origins: Rose-Briar Motif

Subject: RE: Origins: Rose-Briar Motif
From: Suzy Sock Puppet
Date: 18 Apr 13 - 08:14 AM

That's a good question Aileen. I bought mine several years ago. I'd post it on youtube except that Jim would probably come over the sea and give me a good thrashing for it :)

I love the Keane sisters Lord Donegal. There is another version by Rita Weill. She went to Ireland as a young folkie back in the 60's and met the Keane sisters, then she did her own version, Lord Duneagle (spelled that way so that it will be pronounced correctly by Americans). That's available on a vinyl record, difficult to find. Then Nuala Kennedy does her own modern version and it is splendid! I love it. You should find Dervish's modern version of Lord Levett as well. That is equally as splendid.

Susan

Subject: RE: Origins: Rose-Briar Motif
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Apr 13 - 09:07 AM

Aileen
List below.
Captain Woodburren is indeed Captain Wedderburn and we got it from from both Tom Lenihan and Pat McNamara latter on 'Hills', Tom's should be on " Mount Callan Garland", Willie Clancy also sang it - fairly popular in Ireland.
Re. Around the Hills of Clare - where are you?
Jim Carroll

CHILD BALLADS PRESERVED IN PART OR WHOLE BY SOUND RECORDINGS PROM ORAL TRADITION IN IRELAND.
A: COLLECTED BY TOM MUNNELLY.
NO        CHILD'S TITLE.                                                                                

2        THE ELFIN KNIGHT.                                                                                      
4        LADY ISABEL AND THE ELF-KNIGHT.                                                
12        LORD RANDAL. (Appendix: BILLY BOY)                                                        
13        EDWARD.                                                                                        
20        THE CRUEL MOTHER.                                                                        
21        THE MAID AND THE PALMER.                                                        
44        THE TWA MAGICIANS.
46        CAPTAIN WEDDERBURN'S COURTSHIP.
49        THE TWA BROTHERS.
53        YOUNG BEICHAN.
56        DIVES AND LAZARUS. (Appendix: RYE-ROGER-UM.)        
68        YOUNG HUNTING.        
73        LORD THOMAS AND FAIR ANNET.
74        FAIR MARGARET AND SWEET WILLIAM.
75        LORD LOVEL.
76        THE LASS OF ROCH ROYAL.
77        SWEET WILLIAM'S GHOST.
84        BONNY BARBARA ALLAN
87        PRINCE ROBERT.
92        BONNY BEE HOM. (Appendix: THE LOWLANDS OF HOLLAND.)
93        LAMKIN.
95        THE MAID FREED FROM THE GALLOWS. (Appendix: THE STREETS OF DERRY.)
100        WILLIE O WINSBURY.
112        THE BAFFLED KNIGHT
200        THE GYPSY LADDIE.
209        GEORDIE.
214        THE BRAES OF YARROW.
221        KATHERINE JAFFRAY.
272        THE SUFFOLK MIRACLE
274        OUR GOODMAN.
275        GET UP AND BAR THE DOOR
279        THE JOLLY BEGGAR.
281        THE KEACH I THE CREEL.
286        THE SWEET TRINITY.
295        THE BROWN GIRL (Appendix: SALLY THE QUEEN)

By other Collectors
3        FALSE KNIGHT ON THE ROAD
12        LORD RANDALL
24        BONNIE ANNIE
39        TAM LIN
54        CHERRY TREE CAROL
99        JOHNNY SCOTT
106        FAMOUS FLOW OF SERVING MEN
115        SIR HUGH or THE JEW'S DAUGHTER
148        THE GREY COCK
178        THE FARMER'S CURST WIFE
293        JOCK OF HAZLEGREEN
243        JAMES HARRIS

For a list of Child ballads from Irish sources, see Hugh Shields' 'Old British Ballads in Ireland, in Folk Life vol 10, 1972 p 78. This invaluable listing contains references to ms. And printed tradition. The list of sound recordings is now out of date.

Subject: RE: Origins: Rose-Briar Motif
From: Suzy Sock Puppet
Date: 18 Apr 13 - 09:55 AM

Ok. So I think 73: Lord Thomas and Fair Annet and 74: Fair Margaret and Sweet William should have been classified as the same ballad because they have the same plot, just a different ending. Lord Thomas and Fair Annet, the Scottish version, involves murder and has strong racist and Protestant overtones. With Fair Margaret and Sweet William, the English version, it's the usual death of love sickness. I prefer to go primarily with plot when it comes to classifying a ballad...

Below is the Scottish variant of the rose-briar motif which appears in five out of four versions of Lord Thomas and Fair Annet:

Sweet Willie was buried in Mary's kirk,
And Annie in Mary's quire,
And out o the ane there grew a birk,
And out o the ither a brier.

And ae they grew, and ae they threw,
Until the twa did meet,
That ilka ane micht plainly see
They were true lovers sweet

A birk is a birch, however, it also refers to a broom. I like that last it's a nice alternative floating verse. When I see this particular ending, I believe I am looking at a group that views or has identified the original rose-briar motif as Catholic, Norfolk Catholic as a matter of fact. There's an altar tomb in the high chancel of Ludlow Church where lies a Knight of "popish sentiments" and his Lady Alice. And, Walter Pardon's version of Lord Lovel has burial in the "high chancel" just like in "Fair Margaret and Sweet William." None of Child's versions of Lord Lovel have "high chancel" and "lower". Hmmm...Looks like an alternate theory for the origin of the rose and briar motif could be formulated and tested...But my money's still on Tom.

I think also that these two ballads 73 & 74 are analogous to the idealized English "Three Ravens" and the pragmatic Scottish "Twa Corbies." Most scholars believe "Twa Corbies" was derived from, or should I say that it is a Scottish reply to, "Three Ravens." I think the same thing has happened here.

Subject: RE: Origins: Rose-Briar Motif
From: Suzy Sock Puppet
Date: 18 Apr 13 - 09:58 AM

Excuse me, that should have read:

Below is the Scottish variant of the rose-briar motif which appears in five out of NINE versions of Child's ballad 73: Lord Thomas and Fair Annet:

Subject: RE: Origins: Rose-Briar Motif
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 18 Apr 13 - 11:14 AM

But why on earth should 'your money be on' anyone? It's a pointless game, & a silly bet. Trying to establish an incontrovertible 'ur' version of any folk motif, or any orally transmitted folkloric theme or artefact, is a vain endeavour; nothing but vanity and vexation of spirit, surely?

~M~

Subject: RE: Origins: Rose-Briar Motif
From: GUEST
Date: 18 Apr 13 - 12:36 PM

It's a figure of speech Michael. Why vexed? I had a very brilliant professor who taught me that most ideas originate somewhere. I am not vexed but rather intrigued by mysteries, even if they don't offer a definitive answer. If you go on an archeological dig, you're bound to find artifacts that may indeed raise new questions.

I don't know where you are getting vain from the mental processes of a natural detective. Believing that just because you may not arrive at some definitive answer, you shouldn't look, well, it just doesn't appeal to me. Because in that case, I'll just sit around and enjoy the fruits of the labors of people like yourself without having the slightest need for discussion.

Vain. Are you serious? Is Tom Lenihan vain? I think not. The Irish have never been the sort that lay claim to things that are not theirs. They have no problem whatsoever in adopting whatever appeals to them and giving full credit to whomever it is due. The words to Danny Boy and (since I brought it up) the Dromore lullaby were both written by Englishmen. The Irish don't care. If they like 'em they'll sing 'em. On the other hand, if they say a thing in an adamant way, you can take it to the bank.

Btw, that's a figure of speech for people who don't like gambling.

Subject: RE: Origins: Rose-Briar Motif
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 18 Apr 13 - 02:12 PM

I use 'vain' in the sense of being 'in vain', not as a synonym for conceited. And I repeat that it is 'in vain' to attempt the sort of 'detective work', as you metaphorically call it, on which you appear to have embarked. The very act of offering to lay bets on the solution shows that you think there may be an establishable solution out there somewhere. I say you might as well try to stop a bandersnatch as to try and 'prove'[!] or 'discover' that rose·&·briar appeared in Lovell before it did in Barbara Allen, & so 'properly' belongs there [pace Munnelly's informant Mr Lenihan & Harry Cox to me & Bob], when earlier related instances, back to classical times, have been adduced.

I wonder why I should be reminded of what Bernard Levin wrote once of someone who had thought it might be possible to establish a notional value for infinity, to which Levin replied "Oh? Why, all you will have to do is to say 'plus one'."

~M~

Subject: Lyr Add: FAIR MARGARET AND SWEET WILLIAM
From: Suzy Sock Puppet
Date: 18 Apr 13 - 02:22 PM

It's not a problem to put Lord Thomas and Fair Annet & Fair Margaret and Sweet William as variants of the same ballad (which I would file under the name Fair Margaret and Sweet William)into the same category, however, you really need to do this first:         


       74: FAIR MARGARET AND SWEET WILLIAM

74D.1        LADY ALICE was sitting in her bower-window,
        Mending her midnight quoif,
        And there she saw as fine a corpse
        As ever she saw in her life.

74D.2        'What bear ye, what bear ye, ye six men tall?
        What bear ye on your shoulders?'
        'We bear the corpse of Giles Collins,
        An old and true lover of yours.'

74D.3        'O lay him down gently, ye six men tall,
        All on the grass so green,
        And tomorrow, when the sun goes down,
        Lady Alice a corpse shall be seen.

74D.4        'And bury me in Saint Mary's church,
        All for my love so true,
        And make me a garland of marjoram,
        And of lemon-thyme, and rue.'

74D.5        Giles Collins was buried all in the east,
        Lady Alice all in the west,
        And the roses that grew on Giles Collins's grave,
        They reached Lady Alice's breast.

74D.6        The priest of the parish he chanced to pass,
        And he severed those roses in twain;
        Sure never were seen such true lovers before,
        Nor eer will there be again.


There is also a 74E and a 74F but I won't bother to put all the lyrics down here. So now Fair Margaret and Sweet William have 6 variants instead of only 3. Three each? What's up with that? It's like they severed them in twain. Very poetic. But anyway "Lady Alice" is just a bit further on in the Margaret and Sweet William story. Different names means nothing. That could be a regional influence, and, (here I am betting again), I bet it is.

Now that Lady Alice belongs with Fair Margaret and Sweet William. Now we have gone from 10 to 7 ballads. Btw, the motif was added to Barbara Allen and Lady Maisry after Childs so that brings it down to 5 and here they are:

Fair Margaret and Sweet William
Lass of Roch Royal
Prince Robert
Fair Janet
Lord Lovel

With me so far? I have to run the cleaner but I'll be back in a bit to finish our little game of pool :-)

Subject: RE: Origins: Rose-Briar Motif
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 18 Apr 13 - 03:37 PM

'You have agreed that to take into consideration all aspects of the song tradition (a holistic approach) is a way forward, yet you have never gone beyond arguing that you have managed to trace the earliest printed version, then arrogantly declared (not argued) that this must be the source, and when challenged you provide 'what ifs' rather than results of research (which appear to have been made up on the spot).'

>>Jim,
You are a member of the TSF. If you go to the TSF website you will find a reasonably detailed summary of the paper I delivered at the first Broadside Day run jointly by the EFDSS and TSF at Cecil Sharp House.

>>I might also remind you that on at least 2 occasions I have offered/challenged you to choose an agreed number of ballads at random from the aforementioned corpus and we will discuss their probable origins together. That offer is still open.

    'Throughout these arguments you have claimed you must be right because of the number of who agree with you.'

>>Not so. I simply mentioned that a lot of very clever people agreed with it. My conviction is based on my own research, not their approval.


   'sneered at the work of others as 'naive' and 'romantic'.'

>>Guilty as charged!!!!


    'You appear to have done no fieldwork on the subject yourself; if you have, you have never produced it.'

>>Not sure what you mean by this, most of the results of my fieldwork in the 60s and 70s can be listened to on the British Library Sound Archive website. I thought you were aware of this. Published book 'An East Riding Songster 1982. Co-edited the new edition of 'Marrow Bones' with Malcolm, 2007, which you would do well to read. (Numerous articles in English Dance and Song and on the Musical Traditions website.)

   'You appear to be unaware of the numerous functions of the tradition to the people who passed on these songs, in the case of Lord Lovel you had to ask if there were singers who took Lord Lovel as anything other than a burlesque song, ignorant of the fact that some of our best traditional singers did so.'

>>You are not reading my postings. Not once have I stated that all versions of LL are comic. I'm well aware of multiple meanings of songs found in oral tradition. You didn't seem to be aware of the burlesque side of things.   

   'You have passed off with a feeble on-the—spot excuse the fact that historically our traditional songs have always been regarded as "country songs" that have made their way onto broadsides.

>>This is the political stance set up in the early 1900s by the likes of Sharp in order to sell his wares and put over the idealised world of merry England. These people all had their own collections of broadsides and were well aware where the songs originated. It didn't suit their purposes to make this widely known at the time. As I said, Jim, you are somewhat out of touch with current thinking. About a century behind.

'you are asking us to take your beliefs on trust/faith, without tangible evidence.'


>>And this is exactly what you're doing. Snap!

Subject: RE: Origins: Rose-Briar Motif
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Apr 13 - 03:39 PM

Note from Funk and Wagnall:
In the Scottish ballad, 'The Wife of Usher's Well' (Child 79,) the dead sons return to their mother in the winter-time with hats of birch. These were taken from the tree beside the Gates of Paradise: a sign (as suggested by Robert Graves in The White Goddess) to the living that these ghosts will not haunt the world but wear the birch in token that they will return to their heavenly abode.
"I think also that these two ballads 73 & 74 are analogous"
"Three Ravens!!!"
Sorry, don't get that one.
I agonised over which number to put on this one when we were doing the notes for 'Around the Hills of Clare' - I seem to remember seeking Steve Roud's advice - can't remember the reason for the final choice.
A story about this ballad we were told by Tom Munnelly who introduced us to the singer, Martin Howley, shortly after he'd found him.
Martin had a stack of songs and Tom was pretty pressed for time so he began recording what he believed to be the most important ones in case he was delayed in returning.
Tom had taken a list of Martin's songs down and as Martin had given the title of F.M... as "The Old Armchair" because of the first line: Knight William was sitting in his old armchair", Tom kept avoiding it.
As the session was drawing to a close Tom hadn't recorded it, so Martin, in a very determined voice said "I'm going to sing The Old Armchair" - Tom nearly fell off his chair when he launched into the only version of Child 74 ever recorded in Ireland.
Martin, a road labourer, was a lovely old man, a nice old-style concertina player too; we spent several years visiting him (during our holidays).
He told us that he got the song from a Travelling woman named Mrs Sherlock (a common name among Clare Travellers). Her nickname was "Mrs Stotered" as she was often heard in the area rather the worse for drink, saying "I'm stotered (drunk) again"
The last time we met Martin we had been told he was quite ill, so we called up to see him to wish him well.
Although he was not at his best he invited us in , and after a while he said, "do you have the tape recorder with you?"
Pat said, "no Martin, we're going home tomorrow, we called up to see how you were".
He told her, "I'm a poor man; I have nothing to leave only my songs; I'd like you to have them all"; and proceeded to sing another dozen for us - still get a lump in the throat when I think of that.
He died a few months later; it transpired that he had cancer of the eye and, rather than go to the doctor he visited the local St Joseph's Holy Well, reputed to be effective for eye problems.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Origins: Rose-Briar Motif
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Apr 13 - 03:49 PM

"I might also remind you that on at least 2 occasions I have offered/challenged you to choose an agreed number of ballads at random from the aforementioned corpus and we will discuss their probable origins together. That offer is still opeN.
There seems to be little point if you are not able to prove there wre no earlier versions in the oral tradition - your somewhat patronising answer and everything you have said since indicates that you can't, still no point unless things have radically changed.
" I simply mentioned that a lot of very clever people agreed with it."
Please don't make me go looking for them again; you have said it several times, including your heavy handed -"I must be mixing with the wrong people, Jim. These scholars! I don't know! They don't know nuffin! That Professor Child, who was he anyway!"
Wasn't Child the feller who described broadsides as a 'dunghill containing a few diamonds'; I've certainly never read of him claiming broadside origins to the vast majority of ballads - but maybe I'm wrong.
Morelater (tomorrow probably).
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Origins: Rose-Briar Motif
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 18 Apr 13 - 03:53 PM

That's a lovely story, Jim.

Subject: RE: Origins: Rose-Briar Motif
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 18 Apr 13 - 04:00 PM

Regardless of Child's dislike of broadsides, again many of the ballads have a broadside as their earliest extant version, almost all of the Robin Hood ballads for instance. Not the vast majority by all means but a sizable number. Apart from which not that many Child ballads feature in the corpus we were discussing.

Subject: RE: Origins: Rose-Briar Motif
From: Lighter
Date: 18 Apr 13 - 04:04 PM

> during the late 18th and early 19thc most males were abroad fighting or at sea.

Surely a slip. For example, Wellington had about 72,000 men at Waterloo, but the male population of Britain was in the millions.

Subject: RE: Origins: Rose-Briar Motif
From: Lighter
Date: 18 Apr 13 - 04:10 PM

> a sign (as suggested by Robert Graves in The White Goddess)

If Graves suggested it in "The White Goddess," it's almost certainly wrong.

The book has no standing among folklorists and anthropologists.

Subject: RE: Origins: Rose-Briar Motif
From: Lighter
Date: 18 Apr 13 - 04:28 PM

> These people all had their own collections of broadsides and were well aware where the songs originated. It didn't suit their purposes to make this widely known at the time.

Singly or in tandem, Jim and Steve know far more about this than I do, but my impression has been that Sharp et al. were so romantically committed to the idea of "Merrie England" that they simply refused to believe the evidence of their own eyes.

As I've said many times, one can always assert - and believe - on the basis of "the folk tradition" that any song is far older than its first reference in print.

Undoubtedly this is true of many songs, but simply assuming it to be the case for any given example tells us nothing.

If the "folk tradition" (in other words, creative singers) had been as powerfully influential as many believe, broadside songs would have tended to improve rather than decay, and I expect there would have been far more truly excellent variants of words of the ballads than there really are.

In my view, it cannot be an accident that so many of the most satisfying ballad texts seem to have been processed by literarily sophisticated individuals like Burns, Scott, and Anna Brown of Falkland.

Subject: RE: Origins: Rose-Briar Motif
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 18 Apr 13 - 05:22 PM

"...the motif was added to Barbara Allen ... after Childs" SJL 02.22pm
.,,.
Dubious. Oddly it does not appear in any of Child's main entry on the ballad; which,indeed, for so widespread a ballad, gives remarkably few versions, and only mentions Pepys' having heard it in C17 in passing. But Bronson has it in the vast majority of the versions he gives, mostly, unsurprisingly, of a later date than Child; but note particularly his attribution of his version #159, which contains it: "Sung by Mrs Chandler, Farmington, St Francis County, Mo, 1912; from her mother, who learned it from an aunt." If it was traceable in a family for two generations back from 1912, that will surely demonstrate that the motif existed in the ballad well prior to the time Child was compiling, rather than being "added ...after". And his version #103, from Roan Mountains, NC, was published in Journal of American Folklore, vol VI, in 1893, so must date before that in tradition. It seems, therefore, that although Child did not include the motif, it can scarcely be convincingly sustained that it was 'added to Barbara Allen after Child'.

~M~

Subject: RE: Origins: Rose-Briar Motif
From: GUEST
Date: 18 Apr 13 - 05:47 PM

Dear Jim,

Thanks so much for the post above of Tom Munnellys list, I'm in County Wexford - I can post cheque if you can stick Around the Hills... in post to me?

Subject: RE: Origins: Rose-Briar Motif
From: Suzy Sock Puppet
Date: 18 Apr 13 - 05:58 PM

Oops! I forgot to mention that little gender switch thing. In Fair Margaret Sweet William, it's the woman who dies of love-sickness first - because she has lost him to another. In Lady Alice, he is presented to her already deceased. These are superficial details, especially when there is no real plot. For both Fair Margaret & Sweet William and Lady Alice, either he dies or she dies and then the other dies of love sickness and plants grow afterward. It's all the same thing. If you want a real story with action and so forth, you'll have look to the Scots.

So these two are one complete ballad in a sense. Child claimed Lord Lovel and Lady Alice were counterparts. Nope. It's these two met and recognized the other and fell in love. Then everybody dies of love-sickness etc. and then this happened:

85[C.8]        Giles Collin was laid in the lower chancel,
        Lady Alice all in the higher;
        There grew up a rose from Lady Alice's breast,
        And from Giles Collin's a brier.

85[C.9]        And they grew, and they grew, to the very church-top,
        Until they could grow no higher,
        And twisted and twined in a true-lover's knot,
        Which made all the parish admire.   

It appears that Lady Alice started out with one type of ending where a plant, a rose or a lily, springs from his grave in the "East" and touches her breast at her grave in the "West". This is more of an outcome of a classic Medieval romance. The love knot is actually a twist on that theme. Therefore, the rose-brier motif is most likely not indigenous to "Lady Alice" even though we might get some versions in which it is attached. It seems to have come by the "high chancel/lower/rose/brier" sequence by way of Fair Margaret and Sweet William.

The other thing about Lady Alice, what I meant by it being further on in the story, what makes 84A looks like a fragment of some sort, like it skipped by the plot and went straight to the ending, is that 84B and 84C, say that he went to visit his mum with a head injury and that, apparently since he died a short time later, his mother was unable to help him. In 84A, she is merely presented with a dead knight. There's looks to be almost an attempt to add some sort of a plot. But if you want a real story, you'll have to look at the Scottish ballad Lord Thomas and Fair Annett.

Ok, even though posterity chose the rose-brier motif for the finale for all ten of these ballads, It wasn't always that way. I say the Scots preferred either no plant motif ending at all or their own ending which I would call the birk-brier motif, and which I think is lovely in itself, however, since it is derived from the rose and brier, it's not indigenous. The Scots did not get up one morning and decide they needed to change what already existed in, say, Lord Thomas and Fair Annett, but rather when they saw the rose-brier popping up all over the place, they said, "We can come up with one to suit us better!"

And ae they grew, and ae they threw,
Until the twa did meet,
That ilka ane micht plainly see
They were true lovers sweet

I don't believe there should be any book where you classify Scottish and English ballads, put them together in the same book. There is a definite relationship between Lord Thomas & Fair Annett and Fair Margaret & Sweet William, sure, but the Scots liked to spin things their own way. I'm going to let them. And I stand by what I have said in the past about it probably being some sort of Protestant retort- or not. But it's clear that it's a derivative and that all we need to worry about here.

Anyway, let's put the Scottish ballads in their own book. That would be Lord Thomas and Fair Annett, Lass of Roch Royal, Prince Robert & Fair Janet, all those with a Scottish birk-brier motif. That leaves Fair Margaret & Sweet William, Lord Lovel, and Earl Bran (which I accidentally forgot about before). But anyway, we're down to three.

Subject: RE: Origins: Rose-Briar Motif
From: Suzy Sock Puppet
Date: 18 Apr 13 - 06:26 PM

~M~,


Nope. The rose and brier are not indigenous to Barbara Allen.


                                                         ~S~

Subject: RE: Origins: Rose-Briar Motif
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 19 Apr 13 - 01:39 AM

Define 'indigenous', And demonstrate. & whether or not, you will surely admit that I have cast much doubt on your 'added to Barbara Allen after Child'? It might not have been there [tho can you be certain?] when Pepys heard Mrs Knipp sing it on 2 Jan 1666; or even later. And it might have been there ab origine in those ballads you take to 'qualify', tho who & how's to say? But it was certainly there in most of the 100+ variants of B.Allen which Sharp so famously found in early C20 in Virginia alone; it had by then become a much-loved traditional part of the ballad amongst those who sang and preserved it; and, in US at least, we can surely extrapolate [see Bronson's #159] had been so for at least several generations.

Yep?

~M~

Subject: RE: Origins: Rose-Briar Motif
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 Apr 13 - 02:19 AM

"Regardless of Child's dislike of broadsides, again many of the ballads have a broadside as their earliest extant version,"
I went through three volumes of Child last night and "many" of them certainly do not give broadsides as their "earliest extant version," - in fact hardly any do

Subject: RE: Origins: Rose-Briar Motif
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 19 Apr 13 - 02:37 AM

I should add that I have never sung the 'sympathetic plants' verses at the end of Barbara Allen [which I have long sung - happens to have been the first song, 'Scarlet Town' version, that I ever taught myself to accompany when I began learning the guitar in 1956]. They have never 'felt' right to me there, but always as if they have floated in from elsewhere; so thus far I agree with sentiments expressed by SJL. But I feel that their obvious long-term embracing there by the folk, even if not ultimately authentic [insofar as such a word has any rational referent in talking of traditional folklore] gives their inclusion more - 'respectability' is the word that comes to mind - than might have been suggested.

~M~

Subject: RE: Origins: Rose-Briar Motif
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 Apr 13 - 04:26 AM

Where I left off last night.
"You are a member of the TSF."
Many others here are not, this is a public discussion.
From what I know of your work and from your arguments here, you are 'paper-based' and there is no indication that you have drawn your conclusions from other aspects of the tradition – the importance and identification, use of vernacular, knowledge of folklore, intimacy with area and work, access and attitude to literacy.... all part of the making of and the inspiration for the songs in the first place.
"Guilty as charged!!!!"
This attitude really isn't conducive to open-minded research and has led, I believe, to the rejection of facts that don't fit into pet theories – sorry to be harsh Steve, but this is how it has appeared throughout our arguments – pushing on a closed and heavily bolted door.
It's not just you, I hasten to add; I've met it from many 'academics' over the years. I was told one by a quite respected researcher holding quite a responsible post that I couldn't tell her anything about Travellers because she'd "studied them for her degree" – it transpired that she had done no collecting and had never set foot on a Travellers site – wouldn't have recognised a gypsy if they'd tried to sell her a clothes-peg.
I am aware of, but not particularly familiar with your collecting work, which, as far as I can see, shows no great attempt to obtain information on the whys and wherefores of singing from your sources, which I believe to be the important features of the tradition, (certainly no attempt to pass it on); if I am wrong about this, accept my apologies and show me where I am mistaken.   
Very few collectors have recorded such information other than the basics, the folk song equivalent of 'name, rank and serial number!
I was lucky in being given access to (mainly MacColl and Seeger's and Charles Parker's) recordings of actuality and interviews with Harry Cox, Sam Larner, the Stewart's the miners and the road workers, et al (mainly for the Radio Ballads), which made me realise how much information had been missed by adopting a 'headhunting' approach to collecting.
An old friend, Bob Thomson, told me about the work that was being done in the US by Ken Goldstein, with singers like Sarah Cleveland, and previous work by Lomax and others with greats like Texas Gladden.   
All this led me to the conclusion that collectors had treated singers as song bearers and little more.
".....which you would do well to read."
Now you are sounding like a schoolteacher again – I have read 'son of Marrowbones' – I was touched to receive it as a gift from Malcolm Douglas shortly before he died, and I enjoyed it immensely, particularly the extended 'notes to the songs', but I couldn't help but notice it does not contain a corresponding 'notes on the singers' chapter – no context again.
"Not once have I stated that all versions of LL are comic"
True, but you asked "does anybody take Lord Lovel seriously" (will dig out the exact quote if you wish) which suggests to me that you were unaware that virtually all the recorded versions indicated that all the singers did just that.
I am aware of Sam Cowell's version, but I am not aware of any traditional singer adopting his approach.
'Multiple meaning' – I never said that – I was referring to the multiple functions of song-making and the information the songs .
"This is the political stance set up in the early 1900s by the likes of Sharp in order to sell his wares"
This is simply not true – Isaac Walton was referring to 'country songs' in relation to the broadsides he saw on the walls of inns in the 1600s, Hindley in his works on broadsides wrote about 'country songs'; I can't find the quote but somewhere he talks about the songs coming from 'the countryside, to the towns and cities, to the presses then to the streets' – or words to that effect.
The last time we discussed this you claimed that the term 'country songs' referred to broadside printers from outside the cities – consistency wins the day Steve.
"As I said, Jim, you are somewhat out of touch with current thinking. About a century behind"
There you go with your patronising again Steve, it really does bring out the worst in me. I'm fully aware of some of the work that has been done in recent years – much of it from the 'throw out the baby with the bathwater' school of thought, which you appear to be a fully paid up member of.
If there is one thing I have learned is that you throw nothing away – we even recorded a couple of songs that were 'communally composed' – shades of the much dismissed Francis Gummere – forget or reject nothing!!.
A good long bath in traditional songs from traditional singers would do you the world of good.
Our song tradition is all but dead; Sharp et al were saying that over 100 years ago; even they were collecting from singers who were remembering songs their predecessors had learned from a rapidly disappearing tradition.
The BBC project in the 1950s was acknowledged as a mopping-up campaign – songs being 'remembered being remembered' rather than being taken from a living tradition, or even being 'remembered being remembered, being remembered' - your own East Riding Songster very much reflects that.
We were forever being told how many singers and songs we had missed.
Tom Munnelly, without doubt the most prolific song collector in these Islands with something like 22,000 songs under his belt, described his work in the mid 1970s as "a race with the undertaker"; a decade and a half later he was all but desk-bound because the singers were gone.
The best chance we have we have of understanding the tradition is to re-visit and examine what has been recorded and written down and see if we have missed anything important – everything else is paper-shuffling.
Last point – at last
"And this is exactly what you're doing. Snap!"
No it is not – I have tried to apply our field researches to what I have read and picked up over the half century I have been involved in folk song and have presented my conclusions here as well as I am able. I do not ask for 'faith' or blind acceptance, I ask for my conclusions to be examined, considered and, if disagreed with, argued against – not bloody well dismissed out-of-hand and sneered at as you have done throughout and just admitted having done so – I give my reasons for disagreeing with what I believe to be wrong, please have the good manners to do the same.
Sorry about the length of this – big subject.
Will try to respond to other points later.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Origins: Rose-Briar Motif
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 Apr 13 - 04:53 AM

Aileen
"I can post cheque if you can stick Around the Hills"
Better to e-mail me - would like to pass on some other things.
I'm reluctant to put an address up on site due to nasty experiences with the BNP not so longs ago.
Trying to think if I know anybody from Wexford - I have a sort of facebook entry but haven't a clue how to use it.
Why not become a member here - you get used to the shouting after a time.
Failing all - Pat Mackenzie and I are known to ITMA in Merrion Square and they should be able to pass on an e-mail address or contact number.
Thanks,
Susan -
"thrashing" - hmm - now there's a thought....!
Can I say that all proceeds of all our published material goes to the Irish Traditional Music Archive. I'm more than happy that our stuff is passed on - the freer the better, but published material isn't ours to give away as we have had help from others to make it available -
Our entire Irish collection has been given to Clare County Library in Ennis, who are doing sterling work on their website in making recordings of traditional music available - take a look.
One of the great advantages of living in Ireland up to the recent bankers/politicians shennanikins has been the support by the establishment here for the traditional arts.
Our collection should be on line sometime in the near future - they are working on it now.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Origins: Rose-Briar Motif
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 Apr 13 - 06:13 AM

Do I remember a song with the rose-briar motif where the hero/villain uproots them and throws them into St Mary's Loch - Earl Brand perhaps?
'sympathetic plants'
Sort of Prince Charles in reverse
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Origins: Rose-Briar Motif
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 19 Apr 13 - 09:52 AM

Can't recall where I first came across the phrase 'sympathetic plants' for the rose-briar thingy. Hodgart's The Ballads, perhaps? Or does Child use it somewhere? Does it ring a bell with anyone else? I think it a useful phrase. I have known it for some time: I find on checking that I used it in an article I had published on the significance of the 'brown-ness' of Lord Thomas's bride in Child #73, in Notes and Queries for March 1994.

~M~

BTW ~~ It hasn't happened on this thread; but I have noticed that American singers will often call Lord Thomas and Fair Annet/Elinor, #93, "The Brown Girl" ~~ Hedy West always did so, I recall; which is confusing, because there is another ballad in Child, #295, which has that very title.

Subject: RE: Origins: Rose-Briar Motif
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 19 Apr 13 - 09:58 AM

"It's a figure of speech Michael. Why vexed?"---
.,,.
Sorry I neglected to reply to this question of yours yesterday, Susan. I wasn't saying I was vexed. The phrase I used, following my suggestion that it was in vain to hunt for ur-versions, comes from the book of Ecclesiastes: "Vanity of vanities, saith the Preacher, vanity of vanities. All is vanity," it begins; and later on, the Preacher varies the assertion to "All is vanity and vexation of spirit", which was of course what I was quoting.

~M~

Subject: RE: Origins: Rose-Briar Motif
From: Suzy Sock Puppet
Date: 19 Apr 13 - 10:57 AM

First let's actually define what elements are part of this motif. I would say that burial places are incidentals and that the motif proper includes a ROSE, a BRIER and a TRUE LOVER'S KNOT.

The Scots "variation" consists of two lovely floating verses that lack 2 of the 3 elements that define this motif. There is no ROSE and no TRUE LOVER'S KNOT. This disqualifies it from being identified as such. One out of three doesn't cut it. The Scots simply do not favor this ending. Perhaps they saw it as a subtle means for others to appropriate their ballads. They came up with their own which is quite charming IMO, but it is clearly a derivative of the other.

Bottom line: the Scots did not attach the ROSE-BRIER MOTIF to any of their ballads. Other people did that. Some of them might even have been Scots who have forgotten how Scottish they were. And that's fine. My favorite versions of Barbara Allen are the ones that came from the Appalachian tradition and they usually have it.

Once again, they either left it off, or tacked on their own. I'm not saying it shouldn't be there, I'm just saying it didn't start out there. Not at all. That's what I mean when I say "indigenous." It might be there now but in days the rose-brier motif was really making the rounds, no way.

To answer the question I'm trying to answer, you would really have to exclude the Scottish ballads. I also suspect that they may have come up with the alternate ending and attached it as a pre-preemptive measure, in order to prevent the rose-brier motif from being added to any of their ballads.

That leaves three: Earl Bran, Fair Margaret and Sweet William (I have included Lady Alice in this grouping as regards the motif) and Lord Lovel. But first, I will look at any Irish versions of any of these songs. Obviously, because of its connection to Lord Thomas and Fair Annett, we should look at that one first. If I see the motif, that will be no surprise, butI bet you anything I won't find an Irish remake of a Scottish ballad with that Scottish birk-brier ending...

Now look at some highlights of this Irish version of Lord Thomas and Fair Annett:

h. An Irish version, recited by Ellen Daily, Taunton, Massachusetts.

Come riddle me all at once.
Or the bonny brown girl.
He dressed himself up in a suit of fine clothes,
With merry men all in white;
And there was not a town that he rode through
But they took him to be a knight...

...To Lord Thomas's wedding I'll go.'
She dressed herself up in a suit of fine clothes,
With merry maids all in green;
And there was not a town that she rode through
But they took her to be a queen.

He took her by the lily-white hand,
And led her along the hall;
He handed her to the head of the table,
Among the ladies all...

...Then out spoke the bonny brown girl some words with spirit, saying:
'Where did you get the water so clear,
That washed your face so white?'
'There is a well in my father's yard
That is both clear and spring,
And if you were to live till the day you die
That doon you never shall see.'..

(the burial sites are missing in this one)

.......................................
.......................................
Out of Fair Ellen there grew a red rose,
And out of Lord Thomas there grew a sweet-briar.
They grew so tall, they sprung so broad,
They grew to a steeple top;
Twelve o'clock every night
They grew to a true lover's knot.

:-))) First plants are laughing, now having midnight rendezvous! There's yet another Irish version in Child's end-notes. The motif is there as well. Like I said, this is no surprise but where's the birk? Why do the Irish not favor the "birk-brier motif"? Why does that only come out of Scotland?

And of course a reminder that any ballad can become Irish or Scottish or what-have-you once they have worked it over and made it their own. Robert Winslow Gordon collected a "Kentucky Irish" version from Nellie Galt called "Milk White Steed" and the couple was buried in St. Patrick's church and the choir. But origins are another matter.

Jim, that's the Douglas Tragedy, a variant of St. Mary's Loch is an actual place and there was once a St. Mary's Kirk there also. The villian is the Black Douglas. 7:Earl Bran and 74:Fair Margaret and Sweet William have strong local traditions. One in the area near St. Mary's Loch and the other in Norfolk...

Subject: RE: Origins: Rose-Briar Motif
From: Suzy Sock Puppet
Date: 19 Apr 13 - 12:36 PM

Prince Robert I think it is really an Irish-Scots ballad. I think Prince Robert with the birk at the end is just a fluke, a phenomenon cause by publishing. To this I would add that I suspect persons like Thomas Percy and Sir Walter Scott of tampering with these ballads to suit their own agendas so when Sir Walter says that Prince Robert is "from a recitation of a lady very nearly related to the editor," I say Hmmm...

But in any case, the ending here is a tacked verse. It doesn't belong with the ballad. It was published in 1803, which probably accounts for that fact that a few more versions appeared in the near vicinity- Kilbarchin, Dunlappie. Nothing here...

Btw, I love the way Al O'Donnell sings it :)

Subject: RE: Origins: Rose-Briar Motif
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 Apr 13 - 12:49 PM

"Jim, that's the Douglas Tragedy, a variant of St. Mary's Loch"
We know St Mary's Loch well - we used to stop at MacColl and Seeger's house outside Lockerbie and pig out visiting all the placed with ballad names.
Ewan and Peggy had a large map of the area with all the ballad locations marked on it - Earl Brand, Yarrow, Wamphrey, Hermitage, Carterhaugh, Lochmaben, ....
One freezing cold afternoon we climbed the path beside 'The Grey Mares Tail' the steep downfall stream running out of the loch - wonderful to arrive at the top at eye-level with the water.
Beautiful part of Scotland.

Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Origins: Rose-Briar Motif
From: Suzy Sock Puppet
Date: 19 Apr 13 - 12:53 PM

That sounds wonderful Jim. You're so lucky to be over there!

Subject: RE: Origins: Rose-Briar Motif
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 Apr 13 - 01:00 PM

'sympathetic plants'
Just looked it up - Hodgart uses it extensively - didn't register when I read it years ago.
Lovely phrase; thanks for the heads-up.
"You're so lucky to be over there!"
Not the same in Ireland I'm afraid, which is pretty much ìn the same situation regarding walking as Britain was when MacColl wrote The Manchester Rambler' - desperately in need of a 'Mass Trespass'.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Origins: Rose-Briar Motif
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 19 Apr 13 - 01:30 PM

Jim,
(Taking deep breath!)

      'From what I know of your work and from your arguments here, you are 'paper-based' and there is no indication that you have drawn your conclusions from other aspects of the tradition – the importance and identification, use of vernacular, knowledge of folklore, intimacy with area and work, access and attitude to literacy.... all part of the making of and the inspiration for the songs in the first place.'

>>My work over the last 10 years has been largely, but not exclusively 'paper-based' as you call it, but all of the items you mention I have studied in earlier years. I once had a large library of folklore items before I decided to specialise in song study, and as an English teacher for 30-odd years I studied and taught many aspects of language and literature - particularly vernacular. As for 'intimacy with area', you can't get much more intimate than with one's own family.

      'facts that don't fit into pet theories'

>>I could just as easily turn this back on you. I only attack daft romantic theories without any substance. When I said 'Guilty as charged' I was referring to some of the dafter romantic theories like some of these on this thread, not our argument over the origins of 'folk song'. Believe it or not I do respect your stance. I just happen to stand at the opposite end of the spectrum.

       'I am aware of, but not particularly familiar with your collecting work, which, as far as I can see, shows no great attempt to obtain information on the whys and wherefores of singing from your sources, which I believe to be the important features of the tradition, (certainly no attempt to pass it on); if I am wrong about this, accept my apologies and show me where I am mistaken.
Very few collectors have recorded such information other than the basics, the folk song equivalent of 'name, rank and serial number!'

>>Surely both methods have their pluses. We would have lost a great deal of songs recorded by the likes of Sharp had they stopped to record the life histories of every singer they came across. In the 60s and 70s I was holding down a full-time job as a teacher, had to rely on public transport and had no backing whatsoever. Add to that the belief you mention yourself that we were collecting the last remnants. Despite that at least 2 singers we visited on numerous occasions and recorded their life histories along with the sources of their songs and what they thought about them. When I retired and went out recording again I spent a great deal of time recording this sort of material. It does not appear on the BL site because these were later recordings.

    'I have read 'son of Marrowbones' – I was touched to receive it as a gift from Malcolm Douglas shortly before he died, and I enjoyed it immensely, particularly the extended 'notes to the songs', but I couldn't help but notice it does not contain a corresponding 'notes on the singers' chapter – no context again.'

>>The new edition of Marrow Bones was meant to be the start of the publication of all 4 volumes. The Wanton Seed was finished some years ago but EFDSS haven't published it yet. EFDSS wanted to include the singers' bios in the third volume. Not my decision.

      'True, but you asked "does anybody take Lord Lovel seriously" (will dig out the exact quote if you wish) which suggests to me that you were unaware.....'

>>If you read my postings carefully I stated clearly that many of the burlesques have reverted back to being serious songs. Some burlesque versions of LL were only burlesque in the delivery not in the text so that those printed on a broadside would show no sign of the comic element. Only the sheet music called them 'Comic'.

>>Hindley was specialist in cheap print. I have not seen anything of his that even pretends to know anything about the 'country' songs themselves, but he did know a lot about the hacks who made them and the social history behind the town songs. (See his 'Life and Times of James Catnach')

>>'Communal composition'. I have sent you examples of this from my own collection. The problem with Gummere was he was trying to convince people that even ballads were composed in this way, and quite rightly he was soon shot down well over a century ago. Of course the method exists but very very few examples exist in the corpus we're discussing.   

    'A good long bath in traditional songs from traditional singers would do you the world of good.'

>>I'd say my CD collection is about 80% traditional singers, then add to that my own recordings and I bathe in them regularly. Just off to have a bath now.
Cheerio, Jim!

Subject: RE: Origins: Rose-Briar Motif
From: GUEST
Date: 19 Apr 13 - 02:19 PM

Steve,

Sorry to interupt your bath but I wonder if you would like to see the Percy papers relative to Lord Lovel 75A. I would think that as an English teacher, you would find them interesting. They are attachments however so they must be sent by email. Also I would ask you to keep in mind that Horace Walpole's parody did not reach publication until 1904. Percy's letter from Walpole was acquired by the British Museum in 1884.

Jim, my maternal grandfather, Albert Wyllie was a proud laddie from hell. We had bagpipes at his funeral. I never mourned as well for anyone as when I heard those pipes.

Subject: RE: Origins: Rose-Briar Motif
From: Don Firth
Date: 19 Apr 13 - 02:20 PM

The first version of Barbara Allen that I heard contained the rose and briar and love-knot verses. The next two versions that I encountered, very similar, were in song collections of a scholarly nature, and they also had the verses. These two versions were transcribed from field recordings.

Now, my criterion is this:   if some coffee house folk singer or some singer-songwriter, who occasionally sings a traditional song or two, sings the verses, that's one thing. But—if that particular version comes from a field recording or is transcribed by a song collector such as John Lomax or Cecil Sharp, then it's legit.

The rose, briar, love-knot motif, wherever it originated, was probably a "floater," and attached itself to any number of songs.

It's my understanding that the verses

Who will shoe my pretty little foot,
Who will glove my hand ?
Who will kiss my ruby red lips
When you're in the far off land?

Your papa can shoe your pretty little foot,
Your mama can glove your hand.
I will kiss your ruby red lips
When I come home.

appeared first in The Lass of Roch Royal. These verses managed to detach themselves and became what's known as a "floater," and are often attached to other songs—or is expanded a bit and becomes a "stand-alone" song.

So—what's the beef?

By the way, a broadside is not necessarily the earliest version of a a song or ballad. As I understand it, the first printed copy found of Greensleeves was on a broadsheet hawked in the streets of London for a penny, and at the top it said, "New Words to the Olde Tune of My Ladye Greenfleeves."

So what were ye olde words?

Don Firth

Subject: RE: Origins: Rose-Briar Motif
From: GUEST
Date: 19 Apr 13 - 02:21 PM

Married an Irish Catholic and ditched the Masons :-)

Subject: RE: Origins: Rose-Briar Motif
From: GUEST
Date: 19 Apr 13 - 02:28 PM

Don,

Did you ever hear Eliza Carthy "Mother, Go Make My Bed" ? A bit of everything and the rose-briar motif without any mention of burial places. Interesting,

Subject: RE: Origins: Rose-Briar Motif
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 Apr 13 - 03:46 PM

"As for 'intimacy with area', you can't get much more intimate than with one's own family."
Sorry – haven't got a clue what this has to do with who made the songs, which is the subject here.
Not talking about our intimacy with area, but that of the composer.
"I could just as easily turn this back on you".
No you can't Steve, I challenge your claims by reason of their lack of logic – you choose not to answer those challenges other than to dismiss them out of hand; I have never at any time done that.
Thumbing through Child last night to find how many of his first texts were broadsides (as I said, very few) I noticed how many examples of Peter Buchan's he used. Inspired by this, I re-read what Hunsvedt wrote about Child's attitude, and was surprised at exactly what he said about the controversy – I suggest you read it.
In the past you have made ridiculously definitive statements on Buchan which you cannot possibly verify – could it be that accounts of the findings of this 'collector', packman, Blind Jamie Rankin, undermines your theory of 'broadside origins' I wonder?
" I only attack daft romantic theories without any substance. "
Don't know whose, in particular you were referring to here, but it has been a running theme of yours throughout all our arguments, here and elsewhere and specifically aimed at me.
Want me to dig out your "do you honestly believe that guff" – paraphrased again I'm afraid.
"Surely both methods have their pluses."
Not taken individually they don't – I wouldn't dream of discussing folk song transmission without taking into consideration the effect of broadsides, yet by attributing 90+% of or songs to broadside hacks you all but exclude them as having been based on personal experience by the communities from which the singers came – utter nonsense.
" We would have lost a great deal of songs recorded by the likes of Sharp had they stopped to record "the life histories of every singer they came across. "
I am in no way attempting to blame the collectors – simply stating why we know so little.
"Despite that at least 2 singers we visited on numerous occasions and recorded their life histories along with the sources of their songs and what they thought about them."
Then use this information in your arguments – I have, including that recorded from a sogsheet seller.
But this in no way alters the state of the tradition in Britain when you/we were recording.
Walter Pardon was exceptional as he gave us his own memories as a singer (he didn't sing until he was found by the revival), but also that of his Uncle Billy, his main source, who also gave him information from his forbears – three generations of information.
Walter said he knew nothing of broadsides until he read about them in Folk Review, he certainly never saw one.
"Not my decision."
Not trying to lay blame – just pointing to the facts.
"reverted back to being serious songs".
This is no evidence that they ever abandoned the form they "reverted back to" – you seem very fond of dealing in either/ors - why can't Jeannie Robertson's approach have always existed alongside Sam Cowell's?
"I have not seen anything of his that even pretends to know anything about the 'country' songs themselves"
It really doesn't take a PHD in folksong to know that these were generally referred to as "country songs" – Walton was doing it in the 17th century, and he spent a great deal of time in the country, including in the company of country singers.
He did know a lot about the hacks who made them and the social history behind the town songs. (See his 'Life and Times of James Catnach')
Have got 'Life and Times of James Catnach' in front of me, he may have known a lot about hack, but he hardly ever mentions them; not here anyway.
"Gummere was he was trying to convince people that even ballads were composed in this way"
Not advocating for Gummere's theory – just emphasising the dangers of throwing the baby out with the bathwater and – in your case – making definitive statements.
"I'd say my CD collection is about 80% traditional singers"
From a moribund, if not long dead tradition that now has very little to offer other than name, rank and serial number.
Jim Carroll.

Subject: RE: Origins: Rose-Briar Motif
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 Apr 13 - 03:59 PM

"he life histories of every singer they came across"
Sorry - missed a bit.
Nobody here has mentioned "life histories' other than you - I am referring to an attempt to find out what the songs meant to the singers and their communities.
We do know that many of Hammond and Gardiner's singers were discovered in unions (workhouses) - an important point, I believe.
"a proud laddie from hell"
Im sure you know the origin of the nickname - if not, look up "Ladies From Hell".
Did you know that Brendan Behan once wrote of the Scots warpipes that "the only thing to be said in their favour is that they don't smell"?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Origins: Rose-Briar Motif
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 19 Apr 13 - 05:38 PM

Hi Jim
Perhaps one of these days we'll get round to starting our own thread instead of hijacking other people's.

I have everything in HUSTVEDT annotated and all of his remarks on Buchan are derivative and paraphrased from the likes of Walker etc.
He is just plain wrong when he says Child eased off on Buchan. I have just spent weeks annotating all of Child's comments on Buchan and he saves his best for last. See Vol 5 p182.

Jamie Rankin had nothing to do with Buchan's publications. He didn't meet Rankin until after all his published works were prepared for the press. Rankin only contributed to Secret Songs and the later BL manuscript as Hustvedt and Walker rightly say. What the hell Rankin has to do with broadsides I don't know.

I'll get back to you on the Child broadsides question. I'm preparing you a list which is already sizeable and I haven't yet got onto the more obvious stuff in Vol 5.

Subject: RE: Origins: Rose-Briar Motif
From: GUEST
Date: 19 Apr 13 - 08:49 PM

I think yes the symbolism of the rose being positive and the briar being negative is obvious. 'Thorny issues' is still part of common speech meaning something difficult, 'a rose between two thorns', etc. In at least some of the many ballads that use the rose entwining briar motif one of the two lovers has been bad and the other good (Barbara Allen, though it is likely an add on to this particular ballad). Of course the best example of single negative is 'Bridgwater Merchant/Murdered Servantman/Bruton Town/Bramble Briar'. I spent several days last week at my sister-in-laws newly aquired mansion trying to pull out entangled 3-metre long briars, rose and bramble, all overgrown into the trees. Fell over twice, 2 dodgy eyes and covered in scratches. I'll have a look in Wimberley and Fleming Andersen. I would say if you wanted to look for likely origins, the Scandinavian ancestors of many of them might hold the answer.

Hmmm who said that? Do you think you might reading too much into it?

Subject: RE: Origins: Rose-Briar Motif
From: GUEST
Date: 19 Apr 13 - 09:00 PM

Seeing as this motif appears to be one of the very oldest it's almost impossible to say what the 2 original plants were or whether even at some early stage they were the same plant. Some songs that use these 2 symbols actually state 'the rose upon the briar'. As far as I know a briar is simply a thorny stem of almost any thorny plant, rose briar, bramble briar etc.

It's actually like a wild rose with millions of tiny thorns, Steve. Very tenacious.

Subject: RE: Origins: Rose-Briar Motif
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Apr 13 - 03:57 AM

Sorry to have 'hijacked' this thread, but I am convinced that these aspects of ballads and songs are essential to our understanding of them before we end up down yet another blind alley.
Another bit of 'hijacking' to hopefully add a little light relief to the gloom these arguments invariably throw on the proceedings - you might like to try it yourselves sometime - good fun.
When I moved to London in 1969 to join The Critics Group, a number of members took me under their wings to make me feel at home and show me how the group worked; these included John Faulkner and Sandra Kerr, who regularly invited me to go with them to clubs where they were booked to perform.
Occasionally this involved longish trips out of London, so to relieve the tedium and keep ourselves awake we played and even invented word games to break the tedium of the journey, one invention was the re-titling of ballads and songs such as, 'Folk creatures' like 'The False Kite on the Toad' or 'The Outlandish Kite' or 'Terrapin Hero'
or:
'Folk Foods' like;
'The Dowie Dens of Marrow' or 'The Unquiet Gravy' or 'Scarborough Pear' or 'The Derby Yam' or 'Turra Meercat' - all good harmless fun until we nearly came off the road when somebody came up with 'Hang Down Your Head Tandoori'.
Peggy Seeger had not long written a rather delicate anti-racist song entitled 'Hello Friend', which had a first line "Hello friend, I see you're a stranger" - I don't think she ever found out that this became "Hello fiend, I see you're a strangler".
Dozens and dozens of these on several subjects which went on for quite a while until one night we were heading to a club a fair way out of London in particularly heavy traffic, when we decided to relieve the boredom by 'doing a job' on an entire song - 'Riddles Wisely Expounded' which, with very little effort, we turned into a crude cum bawdy cum erotic piece verging on a rugby song - fine, except John and Sandra had it on their list to sing that night and, rather unwisely decided to include it because they needed a longish song with a chorus that would involve the audience.
In front of a somewhat bemused crowd they corpsed their way though half a dozen verses, breaking down at every bit of the ballad we'd changed.
We laid off the game after that.
Sorry to have interrupted - carry on.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Origins: Rose-Briar Motif
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Apr 13 - 04:39 AM

While the 'rose and briar' motif stands out, some of the other symbolic motifs are, I think, well worth discussing as they make the ballads as powerful and as beautiful they are.
I particularly like the personification of the moon in 'Sir Patrick Spens'; "I saw the new moon late yester e'en with the old moon in its arms".
One of the most beautiful symbols for me is to be found in 'Gil Morice'; "I once was full of Gil Morice as the hip is of the stone"; when you think of the very thin layer of flesh around the stone of a rose hip it is a perfect description of pregnancy in its later stages.
Not to labour a point, these echo the everyday speech of working people.
I was lucky enough to be given access to some of the actuality recorded for 'The Radio Ballads' which is full of examples of poetic use of speech; Sam Larner in particular with his "shimmer of herrings" and "living gales"; Belle Stewart's "There'll always be Travellers on the road... till Doomsday in the afternoon".
In 'John Axon', one railway worker described being a railwayman thus, "railways run through you like Blackpool runs through rock" (probably not very comprehensible to a non-Brit).
Miners speech was exceptionally rich with their stories and descriptions of work, mainly un-broadcast; their off-hand and often very humorous funny attitude to death sticks stood out.
I remember such use of language when I was an apprentice on the docks in Liverpool - the overhead railway that ran the length of the dock system (like the New York El) was referred to as "The Docker's Umbrella" because that's where they sheltered when it was raining; because of its shape, when the new Catholic Cathedral was built it was given the name, "Paddy's Wigwam".
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Origins: Rose-Briar Motif
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 20 Apr 13 - 09:59 AM

Okay, here's another definitive statement, Jim.

Without checking for more recently discovered early broadsides there are 92 of Child's ballads that jump out at us as having their earliest version on broadside.

2,4,20,43,45,(46),54,55,56,73,74,76,81,84,(91),104,105,106,(109),110,112,116,117,120,(122), (123), (124),126-136, 138-9,141,(142),143-4,(145), 146-54, 156,157,164,(167),168-9, 199,200,(201),(209),211,213,227,233,(236),237,243,248,250,271,272,273,274,276,278,279,281,284,285,286,287,288,289,292,295,299.

Those in brackets are where the earliest version could be broadside or Percy Folio Manuscript. I'd say 'a lot' was a fair description.

Enjoyed your lighter anecdotes.

Subject: RE: Origins: Rose-Briar Motif
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 20 Apr 13 - 10:35 AM

Nice drift, Jim. Peter Bellamy used to stay over with Valerie & me when he had a gig round about Cambridge or thereabouts, & we would always give him a lift to the venue as he didn't drive. He intro'd us to a similar game, which involved saying a song title [not necessarily folk] suggested by anything we saw as we went along. I remember once, going thru Stamford Hill and seeing a man with beard and earlocks & black hard hat & those odd sort of stockings they wear, suggesting "Here's a Jew, sweet lovely Nancy". And passing a dirty Leyland car brought out "Staines Morris"...

~M~

Subject: RE: Origins: Rose-Briar Motif
From: Suzy Sock Puppet
Date: 20 Apr 13 - 10:41 AM

Don Firth,

Regarding your first comment on this thread:

"I've been told that on the end of "Barbara Allen," most people tend to get the rose and briar bass-ackwards, singing it as the rose growing from her grave (feeling that the rose is a more feminine image), with the briar growing from his.

But a genuine ballad scholar (Dr. David C. Fowler) said that the rose symbolizes true love, hence, it grew from his grave, whereas the spikiness and conditionality of her love produced the briar.

A bit subtle, perhaps, but in "the language of flowers," it makes better sense."

Hmmm... Aren't you and your friend the "genuine ballad scholar" reading too much into this?

Steve, the theme of plants springing from graves is universal. The rose, brier forming a true lovers knot is a very unique example of this theme. And, it is not that the rose is "good" and the briar "bad." How silly. The briar protects the rose. Nobody messes with a briar.

But I do see "gender analysis" in my notes because of you comment. I'm pretty sure it's mostly neutral, the "one" and the "t'other" but I made a note to myself. Thanks Don.

Hijack away you guys. What you have to say is interesting to me whether on topic or not :-)

Subject: RE: Origins: Rose-Briar Motif
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Apr 13 - 12:52 PM

From your list - as far as I got two nights ago - according to Child.
Have no way of knowing if the refs he gave were taken from broadsides, but will, of course, take you word for it if you say they were.
This brings us no nearer to knowing if the first printed versions were not taken from an oral tradition, so back to where we were.
Nor does it change Child's antipathy towards broadsides, which started all this.
Jim Carroll

First entries
4         Buchan
20         Herd
43         Scott
54        Sandys
55        Sylvester's Christmas Carols
73        Percy
74        Douce Ballads
76        Cochrane's Songbook
81        A Wit Restored
84         Tea Table Miscellany
91        Lovely Jenny's Garland
104        A Jovial Rake's Garland
109        Percy Ms
112        Ravenscroft

Subject: RE: Origins: Rose-Briar Motif
From: Lighter
Date: 20 Apr 13 - 02:28 PM

> Hmmm... Aren't you and your friend the "genuine ballad scholar" reading too much into this?

Not at all. The rose *is* a conventional symbol of true love (as in Burns and on greeting cards), and it's hard to imagine what it would be doing in the song otherwise. And briars are indeed thorny and discouraging. Logically the rose should come from the lover's grave and the briar from the jilt's. Versions that confuse the source of the two may be rationalized ad hoc, but they're still confused.

There is no suggestion in the song that the dying and absent-minded lover had either the ability or the desire to "protect" Barbara with his spikes. She seems, moreover, to have needed no protection from anyone.

The point of the rose/briar symbol is simply that the pair are united after death, suggesting the happy ending that heaven is better than the hellhole we're living in now.