BS: Bob Dylan theologian?

Subject: BS: Bob Dylan theologian?
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 12 Apr 13 - 07:20 PM

This is below the line because it is BS. BS about Bob Dylan is still BS IMHO. Lets see how many people don't read the first line of the thread. If you have read this and still want the thread moved above the line please put the following word in your outraged post. "Hibbing"

So here is the real thread. Someone has said the following on this hallowed forum after I dared to post the lyrics to "Gotta Serve Somebody"

"I've learned that Bob Dylan is no great shakes as a theologian and to take his songs seriously doesn't seem edifying."

And someone else said this!

As you quoted Dylan, I refer you to Dylan. Only I can't be arsed to print out the words to God on our side.

So what is it?

(Taking Bob Dylan ) songs seriously doesn't seem edifying

What about y'all? Is it edifying for y'all??


"Gotta Serve Somebody"

You may be an ambassador to England or France
You may like to gamble, you might like to dance
You may be the heavyweight champion of the world
You may be a socialite with a long string of pearls.

But you're gonna have to serve somebody, yes indeed
You're gonna have to serve somebody,
It may be the devil or it may be the Lord
But you're gonna have to serve somebody.

Might be a rock'n' roll adict prancing on the stage
Might have money and drugs at your commands, women in a cage
You may be a business man or some high degree thief
They may call you Doctor or they may call you Chief.

But you're gonna have to serve somebody, yes indeed
You're gonna have to serve somebody,
Well, it may be the devil or it may be the Lord
But you're gonna have to serve somebody.

You may be a state trooper, you might be an young turk
You may be the head of some big TV network
You may be rich or poor, you may be blind or lame
You may be living in another country under another name.

But you're gonna have to serve somebody, yes
You're gonna have to serve somebody,
Well, it may be the devil or it may be the Lord
But you're gonna have to serve somebody.

You may be a construction worker working on a home
You may be living in a mansion or you might live in a dome
You might own guns and you might even own tanks
You might be somebody's landlord you might even own banks.

But you're gonna have to serve somebody, yes
You're gonna have to serve somebody,
Well, it may be the devil or it may be the Lord
But you're gonna have to serve somebody.

You may be a preacher with your spiritual pride
You may be a city councilman taking bribes on the side
You may be working in a barbershop, you may know how to cut hair
You may be somebody's mistress, may be somebody's heir.

But you're gonna have to serve somebody, yes
You're gonna have to serve somebody,
Well, it may be the devil or it may be the Lord
But you're gonna have to serve somebody.

Might like to wear cotton, might like to wear silk
Might like to drink whiskey, might like to drink milk
You might like to eat caviar, you might like to eat bread
You may be sleeping on the floor, sleeping in a king-sized bed.

But you're gonna have to serve somebody, yes indeed
You're gonna have to serve somebody,
It may be the devil or it may be the Lord
But you're gonna have to serve somebody.

You may call me Terry, you may call me Jimmy
You may call me Bobby, you may call me Zimmy
You may call me R.J., you may call me Ray
You may call me anything but no matter what you say.

You're gonna have to serve somebody, yes indeed
You're gonna have to serve somebody,
Well, it may be the devil or it may be the Lord
But you're gonna have to serve somebody.


With God On Our Side Lyrics

by Bob Dylan. From Fahrenheit 9/11



With God On Our Side by Bob Dylan
Oh my name it is nothin'
My age it means less
The country I come from
Is called the Midwest
I's taught and brought up there
The laws to abide
And that land that I live in
Has God on its side.

Oh the history books tell it
They tell it so well
The cavalries charged
The Indians fell
The cavalries charged
The Indians died
Oh the country was young
With God on its side.

Oh the Spanish-American
War had its day
And the Civil War too
Was soon laid away
And the names of the heroes
I's made to memorize
With guns in their hands
And God on their side.

Oh the First World War, boys
It closed out its fate
The reason for fighting
I never got straight
But I learned to accept it
Accept it with pride
For you don't count the dead
When God's on your side.

When the Second World War
Came to an end
We forgave the Germans
And we were friends
Though they murdered six million
In the ovens they fried
The Germans now too
Have God on their side.

I've learned to hate Russians
All through my whole life
If another war starts
It's them we must fight
To hate them and fear them
To run and to hide
And accept it all bravely
With God on my side.

But now we got weapons
Of the chemical dust
If fire them we're forced to
Then fire them we must
One push of the button
And a shot the world wide
And you never ask questions
When God's on your side.

In a many dark hour
I've been thinkin' about this
That Jesus Christ
Was betrayed by a kiss
But I can't think for you
You'll have to decide
Whether Judas Iscariot
Had God on his side.

So now as I'm leavin'
I'm weary as Hell
The confusion I'm feelin'
Ain't no tongue can tell
The words fill my head
And fall to the floor
If God's on our side
He'll stop the next war.

Subject: RE: BS: Bob Dylan theologian?
From: Dead Horse
Date: 12 Apr 13 - 07:36 PM

Bob Dylan. Poet. Musician.
Anything else is individual speculation.

Subject: RE: BS: Bob Dylan theologian?
From: Bobert
Date: 12 Apr 13 - 07:38 PM

As we know, Dylan has bounced around religions... He does seem to have a decent understanding of comparative religion and knows his way around the Bible from various reference in songs over his long career...

As for being a theologian??? I guess, only he knows for sure... Sometimes people impress with revealing everything they know and others impress with revealing just the tip of the iceberg...

Like I said, only Dylan knows...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Bob Dylan theologian?
From: GUEST,Guest from sanity
Date: 12 Apr 13 - 08:02 PM

You may be interested...

Sound familiar?

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Bob Dylan theologian?
From: Bobert
Date: 12 Apr 13 - 08:05 PM

Yup, that's Bob...

Nice clip, GfinS...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Bob Dylan theologian?
From: Ed T
Date: 12 Apr 13 - 09:43 PM

Nose-theology song, and Bob Dylan

Dylan has a rather special kind of nasal breathing through his nostrils that results in the characteristic buzzing sound when he sings. It's kinda like his nose or nasal cavity is burning, smok'in and on fire.

God's anger is shown by His burning nose in the Hebrew Bible. His life is given by breath from His nostrils, His power is blasted out in nose-smoke. Yahweh's "anger" burns: Which is actually burning is His nose.
His nose burns at Moses. Exodus 4:14 is the first use of the idiom in the Hebrew Bible, and Yahweh's nose is burning at the mediator.   Yahweh's nose will burn at His people (Exodus 32:10), and Moses, the one against whom Yahweh's nose first burned, will stand to intercede, to pacify Yahweh's nose.

I am not saying that Bob is connected in anyway to God - 'cause he isn't. But, this may be the connection between God, Bob and theology and music that could confuse some?

(BTW, Bob did once say, in a song, that God gave names to all the animals, in the beginning. But, he did not say in which language they were named or when specifically? :)


""You can pick your friends,
and you can pick your nose,
but you can't pick your friend's nose.
That rule doesn't apply around here"".
Quote, from Jeremy

Subject: RE: BS: Bob Dylan theologian?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 13 Apr 13 - 12:11 AM

If you believe in God, everybody's connected to God...whether they know it or not. That doesn't necessarily mean they're going to deliver any great revelations, though. I like Bob's religious songs. They're intense, he obviously means what he's saying, and they usually make a pretty strong point.

His comments to the interviewer in your clip are a bit mysterious, GFS. Some think he's referring to God. Some think he's referring to the Devil. Whichever it was, it more likely seems like it was God to me, cos he's always written from a godly point of view, so to speak.

The words in songs like "Gotta Serve Somebody", "Every Grain of Sand", "In the Garden", and "With God on our Side" are all very good....the last song referring to the unholy and very common practice of governments and leaders pretending God is on their side when they take a country to war.

Subject: RE: BS: Bob Dylan theologian?
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 13 Apr 13 - 02:19 AM

Well, 'Beauty, as well as ugly, is in the eye of the beholder'....

And only Bob nose God and his singing like nobody else nose!

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Bob Dylan theologian?
From: GUEST,Musket sans cookie
Date: 13 Apr 13 - 02:43 AM

If he is a theologian, why bother copyrighting the songs?

Could it be that they were designed purely as entertainment? Were they written to bring the bacon home? (Metaphorically speaking in his case.)

The £7.99 I spent on Tempest the other month says more about his philosophy than reading too deeply into his mind.

Subject: RE: BS: Bob Dylan theologian?
From: Ebbie
Date: 13 Apr 13 - 03:18 AM

"Definition of THEOLOGIAN: a specialist in theology"

Is Dylan a theologian? Of course not.

His theology, on the other hand, one may agree or disagree with. I like and sing a LOT of gospel songs whose theology I disagree with.

Many of Dylan's songs, imo, are remarkable. Edifying? In what sense? If a song makes me think in a different way or learn something or points out a conundrum or even an outright contradiction, yeah, it is edifying. Many of Dylan's songs do that.

Subject: RE: BS: Bob Dylan theologian?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 13 Apr 13 - 12:37 PM

Theologians don't copyright their work? Where the hell did you get that idea?

Your comments are just quite silly, Musket. Bob always simply wrote whatever he felt like writing at the time, that's totally obvious if you know anything about him, and he took all kinds of flak for doing so. That's what most serious songwriters do...they write exactly what they WANT to write at the time, just because that's what naturally comes out of them at the time. You don't plan it...it just happens! Yeah, sure it entertains those who happen to like it. Why not? And sure it makes money for Bob. Why not? It's his chosen profession, you silly bastard! How else is he supposed to earn a living in this world but by following the one vocation he has taken up in life since age 20?

Would you expect not to be paid...and well paid...for following your chosen line of work in this life?

One thing I like about buying any Dylan album is: I know he's getting a little bit of the money I just paid for it. He bloody well earned it! After all, he has to put up with pointless comments from insufferable prats like you all the time.

Tempest is a very good album. I was surprised how good it was. Pretty intense writing for a guy who's over 70 years old.

He said that he was thinking of doing another religious album soon, but instead he wrote all that stuff on Tempest. That's what songwriting is like. It's unexpected. You may think you've got other plans in mind, but when the songs come they come by their own plan, not yours. And if you're lucky, you get them down when the moment strikes.

Subject: RE: BS: Bob Dylan theologian?
From: GUEST,Arkie
Date: 13 Apr 13 - 04:26 PM

Of course Dylan is not a theologian. Many ministers who preach every Sunday are not theologians either. But one can still comment on subjects related to the discipline without having a degree. Seems to me that Dylan is more like an astute observer and often his comments provoke thought. While one might want to argue a bit over the title of "Gotta Serve Somebody" and question the use of 'gotta' or 'somebody' the fact is people do serve 'something' even if it is their own self interest.

emusic lists over 60 recordings of "Gotta Serve Somebody" though there are duplications. Some by religious artists. Number does not include recordings by a group calling themselves 'Gotta Serve Somebody'.

Subject: RE: BS: Bob Dylan theologian?
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 13 Apr 13 - 04:50 PM

Thanks Arkie!

Can I say that you are answering "No" to theologian "Yes" to edifying and that the requirement of theologian is not required for it to be edifying.

I am sorry for not expressing myself well, but now that I see it, that is the type of answer I was looking for.

Since no one seems to see him as a theologian perhaps "no great shakes as a theologian" was used ironically? OK point taken.

I find his insights to be clever and while I do not see him as an authority on anything except perhaps "the Hurricane" as the song was the length of a history thesis, I do think he is worthy of quoting once in a while.

I have another question. How have Dylan's religious songs influenced you?

Subject: RE: BS: Bob Dylan theologian?
From: Ed T
Date: 13 Apr 13 - 05:27 PM

IMO, in addition to being an entertainer-singer, and his songs were entertaining (in addition to being important throughout periods of history).

Dylan is an excellent poet. His poems stimulate me and many others. The words often briefly opened up thoughts that I possibly would not have accessed through other routes. Some of the poems have clear messages, while the aspect of other messages obtained may vary from person to person. My take on Dylans writings is he was/is often puzzled himself as to where the words of his songs came from (possibly, some influenced by drugs).

My observation on Dylan is that he was confused when it came to religion, bouncing about to find one that "fit" for him. I remain uncertain if he ever found that comfortable place inside (or outside) religion.

I see Dylan's songs "may have relected" profoundly on religion or not, depending on how you looked at 'em - much like with abstract art. But, they never had a significant impact on me - outside being good songs with interesting life messages. However, no other singer/poet had that impact on me either - though I admired George Harrison's level of commitment to what he seemed to firmly believe.

Subject: RE: BS: Bob Dylan theologian?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 13 Apr 13 - 06:56 PM

Ed, Dylan has himself said in interviews that his songwriting was never influenced in its content by drugs...and I believe him...but that the purpose the drugs served for him in the mid-60s was simply to give him the physical energy he needed to deal with an incredible grueling touring schedule. He needed a lot of energy, he needed to stay awake for long hours, so he took various types of uppers which helped him do that....just as a lot of truck drivers do when they're on long runs.

He is recorded in a concert in England, commenting disgustedly on the press labelling some of his songs as "drug songs"...and very pointedly says "I don't write drug songs...it's just vulgar to think so". His irritation with the very notion that he would do that is palpable.

As for Rainy Day Women (Everybody Must Get Stoned)...it's not about drugs. It's a metaphor for people throwing stones at a person (criticizing them), and it's expressing the thought that "I wouldn't feel so alone here if everyone else around here had to suffer the same kind of constant criticism for what they do as I do...so let's all get those same stones thrown at us and be in this together...let's share that feeling". Picture a mob stoning someone to death for some imagined "heresy", and you get the picture. His whole song points out that there is no escape from that sort of crap if you're noticed at all...wherever you go, whatever you do, in this society people are gonna throw those stones at you. It makes them feel righteous. It makes them feel like they are better than the one they're throwing the stones at.

I think of this whenever people begrudge him for having made a lot of money by writing songs. As if they wouldn't like to......! Hypocrites.

Subject: RE: BS: Bob Dylan theologian?
From: Ed T
Date: 13 Apr 13 - 07:14 PM

""Dylan has himself said in interviews that his songwriting was never influenced in its content by drugs...and I believe him...but that the purpose the drugs served for him in the mid-60s was simply to give him the physical energy he needed to deal with an incredible grueling touring schedule""

I don't know, LH, possibly so, I suspect more likely not so (considering the era and industry). I do recall many entertainers and famous people saying similar things about drugs (including alcohol), denying their impact or influence. I have no reason to believe Dylan more than the other folks. People who deal with additions will tell you that at some point it is difficult to separate the two, and often the people involved are in denial and see reality last, if ever.

However, I was not "dising" the guy for using drugs (even when he wrote).It is just a part of that inductry. And, don't get me wrong, money and songs never concerned me.

Subject: RE: BS: Bob Dylan theologian?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 13 Apr 13 - 07:39 PM

I wasn't referring to you in the money and songs comment, Ed.

Being very familiar with pretty much the whole body of Dylan's recorded work, and being a songwriter myself, I frankly doubt that drugs influenced his songwriting other than giving him the energy to work long hours at it. Virtually everyone took drugs back then (just myself and Joan Baez excluded?)(smile), and the standard assumption at the time was to find supposed drug references lurking in everyone's song lyrics. That was tiresome nonsense as far as I was concerned. People were making drug use glamorous...and that's about as dumb as making alcholism or tobbaco smoking glamorous.

In Dylan's case, I don't find much at all to suggest drug references in his songs...rather he seems to be talking about almost everything else under the sun, but not wasting his time indulging in surreal crowd-pleasing lyrics about "getting high".

A lot of musicians fell for that sense of being supercool by playing the "bad boy", showing off their familarity with drugs, and playing that role like it was somehow heroic. They figured it would please their fans. And it did. I see little evidence that Dylan ever followed that common line. He took drugs, all right, but I don't think he regarded them as anything significant in connection with increasing artistic creativity.

Subject: RE: BS: Bob Dylan theologian?
From: frogprince
Date: 13 Apr 13 - 07:40 PM

I wouldn't think of Dylan as a theologian, and I seriously doubt if he has ever tried to be one. The only Dylan song I know that I would consider to be "religious" is "Serve Somebody"; there may be others, but if so I've missed them. To me, "Serve Somebody" comes off as a rather flat-footed Christian sermon with little inspiration at best. He's been much more effective with songs that happen to touch on the implications of religion or it's misuse. At his best, I'm inclined to give him a measure of credit as a prophet , which to me just means one who stands out in his ability to communicate the truth. I don't think he has ever wanted to be a prophet either. Pat Robertson wants to be, and thinks he is, a prophet; I have at least a teensy bit more more (more like infinitely more) respect for Dylan.

Subject: RE: BS: Bob Dylan theologian?
From: frogprince
Date: 13 Apr 13 - 07:47 PM

Subject: RE: BS: Bob Dylan theologian?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 Apr 13 - 08:01 PM

Bob Dylan? Pop singer. End of. And he agrees with that.

Subject: RE: BS: Bob Dylan theologian?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 13 Apr 13 - 08:02 PM

He's got 2 and a half entire albums of overtly religious songs, frogprince, (Slow Train Coming, Saved, Shot of Love) and a great many other songs on other albums which, though not overtly religious, certainly contain forms of spiritual parables and Biblical references. Almost all of John Wesley Harding, for example, is of that nature...the whole album is about temptation, sin, falling from grace, suffering, judgement, experiencing repentance, and seeing the possibility of redemption. It just isn't stated in overtly religious words. If you remove certain very specific words (God, Jesus, the Lord, Calvary, Pentecost, etc...) then people don't seem to notice that the songs are discussing the same basic moral and spiritual issues that are the main concerns of religion. This has been the case all through Dylan's songwriting, right from the start and to the present day.

It's also the case with Leonard Cohen. All the way through. They are very comparable in that sense, as well as in their mastery of great lyrics.

The main difference being...Dylan writes fast and spontaneously, just when the spirit hits him. Cohen writes slowing, very meticulously, with a longterm objective in mind in each song. That's why Dylan may write a great song in half an hour, while Leonard might do it in 3 years! ;-D Radically different approaches...similarly effective results.

Subject: RE: BS: Bob Dylan theologian?
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 13 Apr 13 - 08:04 PM

Dylan wrote about his life didn't he?

Subject: RE: BS: Bob Dylan theologian?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 13 Apr 13 - 08:19 PM

Yeah.

Subject: RE: BS: Bob Dylan theologian?
From: frogprince
Date: 13 Apr 13 - 08:25 PM

I've been aware enough that Dylan, like Cohen, is saturated with religious imagery. I knew about his "Christian period", after which he said that three years of preaching was good enough for Jesus and good enough for him. I think I was just too immersed in some other life things during that period to know what music was written about anything, and just never picked up on that material.

Subject: RE: BS: Bob Dylan theologian?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 13 Apr 13 - 08:40 PM

It's pretty intense stuff. Went from roughly '79 to '81 or thereabouts.

Subject: RE: BS: Bob Dylan theologian?
From: pdq
Date: 13 Apr 13 - 09:13 PM

Bob Dylan changes all the time.

When one adventure gets old, he begins another.

Joni Mitchell is much the same, at least musically. So is Neil Young.

I supect his fist character in the early Greenwich Village days was based on Charlie Chaplin's character. He was quite comical.

Subject: RE: BS: Bob Dylan theologian?
From: Ed T
Date: 13 Apr 13 - 09:42 PM

""the worst source of info about Dylan's past is often Dylan himself"" Andy Greene, Rolling Stone Music
.

Rollingstone article from 2011

Subject: RE: BS: Bob Dylan theologian?
From: Ed T
Date: 13 Apr 13 - 09:57 PM

""....Dylan's drug use is there to be found in his work, particularly in his explosive mid sixties torrent of words and music, when Dylan seemed to be operating at an astonishingly frenzied pace of creativity...For those (if there are any left) who treat Bob Dylan as a latterday prophet, the revelation that he has dabbled in a demonised narcotic substance may be a disappointment. To anyone else, the correct response should be a shrug of the shoulders"". Neil McCormick,the Telegraph's chief rock music critic (May 23rd, 2011)


Another perspective

Subject: RE: BS: Bob Dylan theologian?
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 13 Apr 13 - 11:11 PM

"
Dylan wrote about his life didn't he?

Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate
Subject: RE: BS: Bob Dylan theologian?
From: Little Hawk - PM
Date: 13 Apr 13 - 08:19 PM

Yeah. "

Drugs were a big part of his life.

Subject: RE: BS: Bob Dylan theologian?
From: GUEST,Musket sans cookie
Date: 14 Apr 13 - 03:42 AM

LH. You missed my point and I apologise for not being eloquent enough.

Dylan wrote songs and indeed writes songs as a profession. Entertainment is the end product and in that he excels.

Looking deeper than that is interesting but misses the point. If he is a theologian, then theology is entertainment. For me it might be but I doubt religious people would see it that way.

The person who said he is just a pop singer? Oh, that'll be himself. Don't forget this thread came about because sailor boy tried using Dylan lyrics to justify some pro religious stance or other in one of the more entertaining threads.

Subject: RE: BS: Bob Dylan theologian?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 14 Apr 13 - 04:17 AM

Steve ~~ Not too sure about 'end of'. I should have thought so at one time; but am coming more and more to find Dylan well worth taking seriously as a poet: a lot of his apparently facile versification goes pretty deep on examination. Professor Christopher Ricks, holder of chairs at Oxford, Cambridge, and now Boston, rates him very highly as a poet; has even published a book on him, in addition to his distinguished work on Milton. He happened to be a Fellow of my Cambridge college for a while, and one of my most pleasant memories is of discussing 'Hattie Carroll' with him over lunch once some years ago.

In passing, comparisons might be made with another, English, singer-songwriter, largely of humorously satirical songs but also occasionally of a deeply spiritual Christian nature ~ Sydney Carter, writer of 'Lord Of The Dance' as well as of 'Tobacco, tobacco, I hate you I do' and 'It isn't much fun for a mixed up old man'.

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Bob Dylan theologian?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 14 Apr 13 - 05:56 AM

All I was doing, The, was trying to provide a corrective to the lionising perpetrated in this thread by a handful of Dylan sycophants. My only disagreement with you about him used to be over which was the one good song he wrote. Down with shallow obscurantism, I say! You're softening, my man. ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Bob Dylan theologian?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 14 Apr 13 - 06:39 AM

Ah, well; mellowing with age maybe, Hen?

☺~T~☺

Subject: RE: BS: Bob Dylan theologian?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 14 Apr 13 - 06:42 AM

Still think btw that he was a dire singer whose diction was vile. Would far rather read any of his verse any time that listen to him inarticulately gabbling it.

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Bob Dylan theologian?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 14 Apr 13 - 06:45 AM

Well, Musket, I don't think of Bob Dylan as a theologian. I just think of him as a writer who has been strongly affected by religious and spiritual traditions and who thinks about theological and spiritual issues, therefore often writes material that reflects those issues. This is probably true of at least half the serious writers who have existed in the past couple of thousand years. ;-) Maybe a good deal more than half of them. So...no surprise that Dylan does it too.

To call Dylan "just a pop singer" is truly weird, and here's why. Most pop music is just vapid and melodramatic love songs of one sort or another. Turn on the radio, and you'll hear it. ;-) Serious and complex issues are almost never touched upon in pop music. Dylan has been writing about serious and complex issues all through his career. The audience that goes for pop music has generally been fairly oblivious to Dylan, because his material is way too serious for them...and it either fails to interest them at all or it scares them. Or they don't get it. A few of his songs have made it into what could vaguely be called "pop music", but that's only because his body of work is so huge and varied that it's made it into just about everything by now. He's too large for a single category.

Jack - (shrug) I see nothing in Dylan's work that suggests the kind of drug fascination that affected so many other singers' writing at the time. Yeah, it was a part of his life allright....like drinking pop or eating pizza is a part of people's life. A trivial part. Not particularly worth writing a bunch of songs about.

Subject: RE: BS: Bob Dylan theologian?
From: GUEST,Musket sans cookie
Date: 14 Apr 13 - 06:52 AM

We seem to agree on the first point. Both disagree with Dylan's self deprecation but beyond that I don't look too deeply...

Subject: RE: BS: Bob Dylan theologian?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 14 Apr 13 - 07:19 AM

His "self-deprecation"...?

I'm not sure what you mean. He has written quite a few songs where he criticizes himself stringently for his own failings...

Subject: RE: BS: Bob Dylan theologian?
From: GUEST,Musket sans cookie
Date: 14 Apr 13 - 07:34 AM

When he said he writes pop songs..

Even a thick heathen like me feels that was false modesty.

Subject: RE: BS: Bob Dylan theologian?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 14 Apr 13 - 07:51 AM

Well, I think that claiming for him false modesty or self-deprecation regarding his "pop-songs" statement is slightly wide of the mark. I think it was more like an expression of severe irritation at those people who are wont to put him on a pedestal. He doesn't suffer fools gladly, even those sycophantic fools who regard him as some nouveau-Jesus.

Subject: RE: BS: Bob Dylan theologian?
From: GUEST,Futwick
Date: 14 Apr 13 - 10:11 AM

Theologian: An uncommon individual who, though possessing finite abilities, has been called by God himself who, though possessing infinite abilities, requires the assistance of the former in explaining Himself to the rest of us.
---Donald Morgan

**Most pop music is just vapid and melodramatic love songs of one sort or another.**

Careful. A lot of people here seem to like those.

Subject: RE: BS: Bob Dylan theologian?
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 14 Apr 13 - 10:59 AM

"Jack - (shrug) I see nothing in Dylan's work that suggests the kind of drug fascination that affected so many other singers' writing at the time. Yeah, it was a part of his life allright....like drinking pop or eating pizza is a part of people's life. A trivial part. Not particularly worth writing a bunch of songs about. "

It is my firm belief (without telling anyone how I might know) that the song with the lyric "everybody must get stoned", the music, the tone, the rhythm, is uncanny in capturing the feeling of a group of young people sitting around a coffee table rolling joints and passing them around. In fact, I believe that such things have been gleefully and knowingly done to that song. I guess it is possible that the song is a metaphor for the press attacking Dylan and the only stoning referred to is biblical, but I think that is very unlikely.

Is Bob Dylan a pop singer? Interesting thing to ponder. Most of his songs that were hits were pop hits for other artists. Especially back when folk music was popular music. Was he/is he just a pop artist? No he was a lot more than a pop singer. A writer most importantly. A preserver and exploiter of folk traditions, an opinion leader, a philosopher, a Traveling Wilbury a soundtrack writer, many things. But of course, no great shakes as theologian.

He was he s thoughtful Christian who expressed his feelings in song. I don't know if he still is. Does he have anything to say that is worthwhile. Is he edifying with respect to religion? That depends on the individual, doesn't it?

Subject: RE: BS: Bob Dylan theologian?
From: Ed T
Date: 14 Apr 13 - 11:11 AM

As with a fine painting, it is clearly a talent to write poetry/lyrics that can be interpreted in so many ways by so many people over a relatively long period - wherever you are at that point in time in your interpretations, and outside of whatever stimulated Dylan in the writings.

""Whatever gets you through the night 'salright, 'salright""

Subject: RE: BS: Bob Dylan theologian?
From: Stringsinger
Date: 14 Apr 13 - 12:04 PM

One of Dylan's achievements is that he is purposely vague in his metaphors. He is a Rorschach test in that so many interpretations can be given to his lyrics.

I think Dylan did flirt with drugs for a while. Most pop singers of the 60's did.
For example, "Mister Tambourine Man" suggests an LSD trip.

A lot of songs from the Sixties dealt with using drugs and to this I shrug my shoulders and say so what?

As for Dylan's lyrics, I find them sophomoric and shallow for the most part. The one love song I except and like is "Tomorrow is a Long Time". I think that there have been performers who have done his songs very well, much better than he.

He also becomes "Positively Paranoid" in "Positively Fourth Street".

I prefer Paul Simon or early Joni Mitchell instead of her later "Slouching to Bethlehem".

As a theologian, I don't see any important information coming from him about that subject. "You've Got to Serve Somebody" is an appeal to Authoritarianism, an attempt to embrace "Big Daddy" and I don't agree with the premise of the song.

You stop serving "Someone" when you learn to think for yourself.

Subject: RE: BS: Bob Dylan theologian?
From: Ed T
Date: 14 Apr 13 - 12:47 PM

""You stop serving "Someone" when you learn to think for yourself"".

I suspect not so. Unless you don't consider yourself "somebody? I doubt this would not be so for many "mudcat egos" :)

Subject: RE: BS: Bob Dylan theologian?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 14 Apr 13 - 02:11 PM

"He doesn't suffer fools gladly, even those sycophantic fools who regard him as some nouveau-Jesus."

Yeah, that's right, Steve. And that's one of the things I like about him, that he rejects that sort of fanatical and misplaced adulation from crazy fans who would make him into some kind of idol...leader...symbol of the movement...or whatever the heck they have burning a hole in their head.

I am no Dylan sycophant. I do not regard him as a prophet, the voice of his generation, someone who has all the answers, or someone whose every character detail I am eager to emulate. Hell, no. I just really like the way he writes songs, the way he sings them, and I appreciate his abilities in that particular respect.

I feel the same way about Leonard Cohen, Buffy Sainte-Marie, Mary Chapin Carpenter, Enya, Gordon Lightfoot, Loreena McKennit, Joan Baez, Ian Tyson, Sylvia Tyson, Lynn Miles (a contemporary Canadian folksinger), Al Stewart, and several other notable songwriters. I admire each one of them for their musical and creative gifts. I regard none of them as some kind of image of perfection to worship. I am a sycophant of none of them. I do not place Dylan above the rest of them.

On the scale of character, I'd be far more inclined to emulate Buffy Sainte-Marie or Joan Baez (knowing what I do about them) than Mr Dylan. On the scale of songwriting, I rate Lynn Miles and Leonard Cohen every bit as good as Bob Dylan....just each with their own particular style, that's all.

*********

Stringsinger - I don't think Mr Tambourine Man has one single thing to do with drugs. I think it has to do with the absolute joy and freedom that can be found in certain moments through playing music. The "tambourine man" was not your local drug dealer, he was Bruce Langhorne, banging joyfully on a big tambourine at a recording session with Bob Dylan in the early 60's. It's the "jingle jangle" morning because that's what a tambourine does...it jingles and jangles. If you're looking for joy and freedom, music is a way greater "trip" to go on than drugs will ever be. Drugs, like drink, are illusory effects on the nervous system, distortions in consciousness, but music is the real thing.

****

The "somebody" that most people really serve is their own flaming, self-centered, insecure, jealous, fearful, revengeful, and ravenous little ego. It leads them straight down the path to misery. And that's what religious philosophies of every sort in every part of the world have tried to free people from since the dawn of civilization...the prison of their limited little fear-dominated, ego-self that thinks it's all alone in a pitiless Universe...playing the wretched game of competition and (very short-lived) survival.

****

"Positively Fourth Street" is sort of paranoid, yeah. ;-) But not surprisingly for the year 1965, given how Dylan was being attacked and sniped at by former "friends" from all over in the folk community for supposedly being a "traitor" after having gone electric. He decided to record a big giant "Fuck you!" to all the people who were dissing him at the time...or presenting a friendly face in public while secretly hating and envying his success. He probably went too far in those lyrics....surely caused some hurt to quite a few people. Maybe he shouldn't have done it. But it still has an interesting power, that song. You know he means every word. It shocked people, because it was so explicit.

****

Jack - You're quite right that Rainy Day Women is "uncanny in capturing the feeling of a group of young people sitting around a coffee table rolling joints and passing them around". Yes, indeed! I still think the song is basically a metaphor for having stones hurled (not just by the press, but by lots of other people too)...I think it's about all the crap society throws at ALL of us right from the day we enter primary school till the day we die, but it may have something to say about drug use at the time too. I can't say for sure. We'd have to ask Bob...and he would probably not be one bit cooperative in giving us an answer. He wonders why they can't find something else to obsess about... ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Bob Dylan theologian?
From: Ed T
Date: 14 Apr 13 - 02:26 PM

""We'd have to ask Bob...and he would probably not be one bit cooperative in giving us an answer""

Possibly, because he wouldn't remember himself :)

Subject: RE: BS: Bob Dylan theologian?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 14 Apr 13 - 02:35 PM

The vague metaphors Dylan uses...those are what I call universal symbols. They are a just few words that can say a whole bunch of different things, not just one thing, so a single line can be saying things on 3 or 4 different levels of meaning all at the same time. One person may tune into 1 level only. Another may tune into 2 or 3 of the levels. Everyone finds whatever they can relate to in it.

And that's really good poetic writing. You didn't plan it. You didn't calculate it. It wasn't deliberate. You weren't   trying to be vague or mysterious or anything else when you did it. It just happened instinctively..because it happened naturally without your calculating mind interfering in the process at all.

Great writing isn't done by calculation. It's done by surrendering to the process of a brand new creation pouring through you, and letting it happen by its own power WITHOUT your calculating little mind getting in the way and screwing up the process.

This is something every great artist knows...and every didactic materialist will deny out of hand...because surrender is anathema to the materialist mind. It wants to be the king. The one in control. It admits to no greater truth or power than itself. It will not surrender. It intends to conquer or die. It's great at fighting wars, killing people, and turning out a billion more widgets, but it will never create a living work of art.

Subject: RE: BS: Bob Dylan theologian?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 14 Apr 13 - 02:57 PM

Actually, LH, 'great writing' isn't only of one kind. It can be done 'by calculation', or by what Milton called "Warbling his native woodnotes wild". What you say may well apply to Dylan Thomas or Shelley or early Thomas Hardy, say; but I don't think it would do for Milton or Keats or Jane Austen or Henry James...

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Bob Dylan theologian?
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 14 Apr 13 - 03:12 PM

I've been running his lyrics though my head. I can't think of a single vague metaphor.

Help me out here.

Subject: RE: BS: Bob Dylan theologian?
From: frogprince
Date: 14 Apr 13 - 03:16 PM

"Theologian: An uncommon individual who, though possessing finite abilities, has been called by God himself who, though possessing infinite abilities, requires the assistance of the former in explaining Himself to the rest of us.
---Donald Morgan"

I spent quite a few years in settings where that would have met with solemn nods of appreciation. Now I wonder how it was meant. I'm unacquainted with Morgan. If he is a straight-up fundamentalist, I understand what he meant, though I now consider it essentially meaningless. But I wonder if it was said with obvious sarcasm... or with covert sarcasm, watching to see if it would draw a response of solemn nods of appreciation.