BS: Bob Dylan theologian?

Subject: RE: BS: Bob Dylan theologian?
From: Ed T
Date: 14 Apr 13 - 03:18 PM

Like with most creative areas of life, I would expect that great lyric/poetic writing comes out of a variety of styles and efforts.

Subject: RE: BS: Bob Dylan theologian?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 14 Apr 13 - 03:46 PM

Jack -

"How many roads must a man walk down, before you call him a man?"

Metaphorically can mean: "How much life experience must each of us go through before attaining something approaching maturity?"

"How many seas must a white dove sail, before she sleeps in the sand?"

Can mean: What further trials must the human race go through before we manage to achieve peace in this wartorn world?

"How many times must the cannonballs fly, before they're forever banned?"

When will the nations of the Earth come to their senses and outlaw war?

"The answer my friend is blowing in the wind..."

We have no way of knowing the answers to these questions.

The above are quite simple lyrics, and the messages are obvious. They say a great deal in a few words. He has far more mysterious metaphors than that, but I don't want to spend the rest of my life typing out stuff about them.

Here's a cool one, though: "To live outside the law you must be honest"

To escape the smothering bounds of conventional thoughts and rules you must have the courage to be yourself, regardless of the consequences. That requires honesty.

The interpretations I've given for these various lines aren't the only ones. Clearly. But they are among the possibilities that the lines suggest.

Here's another fun line: "It balances on your head just like a mattress balances on a bottle of wine."

In other words, it's another good tool for seduction. An aphrodisiac, you might say...but the line is sung in a humorously sarcastic fashion.

These might not be the kind of metaphors you're looking for, of course.

Try looking up the lyrics of Jokerman. There's some very mysterious stuff happening in that one. Some of it's got to be about Jesus, some of it may be about Satan. It's not an easy one to be sure of one way or the other.

Subject: RE: BS: Bob Dylan theologian?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 14 Apr 13 - 03:49 PM

MtheGM - You make a good point. Okay, I'll buy the idea that some great writing can be done through calculation. It depends on what that writing is about. I don't think it's true of most songwriting, but it could certainly be true of a book on history or politics or something else along that line.

Subject: RE: BS: Bob Dylan theologian?
From: frogprince
Date: 14 Apr 13 - 03:56 PM

A coherent mystery, or detective procedural, takes a whole bunch of calculation. Especially if there are some effectively done red herrings thrown in.

Subject: RE: BS: Bob Dylan theologian?
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 14 Apr 13 - 03:57 PM

Little Hawk, those are metaphors. Are they vague? The seem very clear to me. You translated them in minutes and I don't disagree with you one hair.

Now THESE are vague metaphors.

Songwriters: LENNON, JOHN WINSTON / MCCARTNEY, PAUL JAMES

I am he as you are he as you are me and we are all together.
See how they run like pigs from a gun, see how they fly.
I'm crying.

Sitting on a cornflake, waiting for the van to come.
Corporation tee-shirt, stupid bloody tuesday.
Man, you been a naughty boy, you let your face grow long.
I am the eggman, they are the eggmen.
I am the walrus, goo goo g'joob.

Mister city policeman sitting
Pretty little policemen in a row.
See how they fly like Lucy in the Sky, see how they run.
I'm crying, I'm crying.
I'm crying, I'm crying.

Yellow mother custard, dripping from a dead dog's eye.
Crabalocker fishwife, pornographic priestess,
Boy, you been a naughty girl you let your knickers down.
I am the eggman, they are the eggmen.
I am the walrus, goo goo g'joob.

Sitting in an english garden waiting for the sun.
If the sun don't come, you get a tan
From standing in the english rain.
I am the eggman, they are the eggmen.
I am the walrus, goo goo g'joob goo goo g'joob.

Expert textpert choking smokers,
Don't you think the joker laughs at you?
See how they smile like pigs in a sty,
See how they snied.
I'm crying.

Semolina pilchard, climbing up the eiffel tower.
Elementary penguin singing Hari Krishna.
Man, you should have seen them kicking edgar allan poe.
I am the eggman, They are the eggmen.
I am the walrus, goo goo g'joob goo goo g'joob goo goo g'joob.
Goo goo g'joob goo

Subject: RE: BS: Bob Dylan theologian?
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 14 Apr 13 - 04:10 PM

Bob did a lot of calculating. More so than most I would think.

Blowing in the Wind has very simple structure, the symbolism is pretty standard, it was a matter of putting all that together at the right point in history I think. Bob was a very smart cookie then.

poetic question
poetic question
poetic question
Catchy answer.

I heard Keith Richards relate a story where John Lennon and Paul came to a session to write some songs for the Stones. Mick and Keith watched them and realized they could do it for themselves. There must have been some formula or else they wouldn't have picked it up in less than a day. Mick and Keith turned out to be competent songwriters. They were not as prolific as Dylan or John and Paul. But they have don't better than anyone else.

Subject: RE: BS: Bob Dylan theologian?
From: pdq
Date: 14 Apr 13 - 04:28 PM

"It balances on your head just like a mattress balances on a bottle of wine."


Isn't that song about Jackie Kennedy?

Subject: RE: BS: Bob Dylan theologian?
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 14 Apr 13 - 04:29 PM

"Theologian: An uncommon individual who, though possessing finite abilities, has been called by God himself who, though possessing infinite abilities, requires the assistance of the former in explaining Himself to the rest of us.
---Donald Morgan"

I spent quite a few years in settings where that would have met with solemn nods of appreciation. Now I wonder how it was meant. I'm unacquainted with Morgan. If he is a straight-up fundamentalist, I understand what he meant, though I now consider it essentially meaningless. But I wonder if it was said with obvious sarcasm... or with covert sarcasm, watching to see if it would draw a response of solemn nods of appreciation.

________________________________


Very amusing question FP. It may deserve its own thread.

I can't say whether Morgan was a straight-up fundamentalist or not. But to me it is apparent that he did not have a high opinion of theologians.

He certainly echoes an emotion I often feel.

I drive a lot, I like to hear people talking on the radio for company. I listen to NPR news programing where I can, Sports News or talk where I can (mostly because it is inane), In the absence of those "News" talk to see what the right wing talking points of the day are and self-described "christian radio"

What I mean here is the type of preacher who uses phrases like Christians and Catholics, implying that his type are the only real ones.

These guys, all of them seem to be guys, have their announcers call them "doctor" and talk about their theological degrees and Biblical scholarship and tell people how to lead "biblical lives" Which are anti-Muslim and anti-abortion, both of which, of course are post Bible. So aren't we lucky to have these theologians with their finite abilities to tell us how the Bible addresses these issues?

Subject: RE: BS: Bob Dylan theologian?
From: Ed T
Date: 14 Apr 13 - 05:47 PM

""The first draft of anything is shit."" Ernest Hemingway

Subject: RE: BS: Bob Dylan theologian?
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 14 Apr 13 - 05:51 PM

I enjoy Hemmingway's writing but is real talent was punchy little quotes.

Subject: RE: BS: Bob Dylan theologian?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 14 Apr 13 - 08:17 PM

I think Jagger and Richards are a really excellent songwriting team, Jack.

Yes, I think you're quite right that most of Dylan's metaphors are in fact not vague...and can usually be readily understood in the context of the song. The thing that's really interesting, though, is that they sometimes work on several levels of meaning simultaneously. This isn't because they're vague, it's because they're well put.

That bunch of amusing hooey from the Beatles is more just a question of stringing a lot of words together that "sound" cool, but don't necessarily mean much. It works well as a song, though. Quite enjoyable to sing along with.

I think Bob calculated his career moves, yes. He did so brilliantly. He also, though, pretty much wrote whatever he felt like writing at the time. His timing just happened to be perfect when he wrote all those protest songs. His friendship with Suzie Rotolo surely was an influence, because she was very much involved in the New Left political scene, and that got Bob thinking about the topical issues of the day and writing about them between roughly '61 and '63. He got tired of it after awhile, and declared his resignation from that role in the 1964 song "My Back Pages" and the album "Another Side of Bob Dylan", turning instead to writing more personal, introspective songs and social comment of a much less specifically political nature. This was disappointing to people like Pete Seeger who were hoping that Dylan would be their "young lion of the Left" indefinitely.

As Dylan said in another song "everything passes, everything changes".

He, Neil Young, and Joni Mitchell have all insisted on moving into new phases whenever they got tired of an old one. They'd lose some disgruntled fans every time they did it, but they'd pick up a bunch of new ones at the same time.

Subject: RE: BS: Bob Dylan theologian?
From: Stringsinger
Date: 15 Apr 13 - 02:10 PM

"The above are quite simple lyrics, and the messages are obvious." In the song "Blowing in the Wind" the messages are so obvious as to be preachy and simplistic.

Bob Dylan would have been happy to be received as well as Elvis Presley. He was a show business figure who found a new way to reach the public. He took on the mantle of Woody Guthrie and maybe Jack Elliott.

The infatuation that Pete had for him, I could never understand. I think this is due to Pete's naivete. I remember saying this to Pete personally and it was one of the few times I've ever seen Pete angry. Don't cross Pete if he is.

I don't agree that Dylan is a great poet. He is clever, maybe like Ogden Nash without the sophistication and can turn a cute phrase but he is more of a symbol of rebellion and comes out of that need by adolescents who haven't quite grown up. He is also a symbol of nostalgia for the Sixties and yes he probably thought in those days "everybody needs to get stoned".

"Like A Rolling Stone" was an indictment of young girls or boys on the road who didn't come to grips with the reality of their situation. It has an air of judgement about it although as a song on the charts, it was interesting and a departure from the sentimentality that you usually find there.

In fact, there is an air of judgement that is almost Old Testament coming from Dylan.

An interesting book to read is "Positively Fourth Street" which talks about his relationship with Joan Baez. He's a bit of a misogynist. He is the product of a patriarchal attitude.

He is, however, a significant performer in the field of popular music. Watching him in the early days, he had a hypnotic effect on an audience, something that is built in the DNA I think and could mesmerize large audiences in a huge setting as well as people in a small room.

He captivated Joan Baez who went all out for him but he never reciprocated.

Subject: RE: BS: Bob Dylan theologian?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 15 Apr 13 - 02:43 PM

Joan Baez thought he was the finest songwriter of that era. So did Judy Collins. And Phil Ochs. Gordon Lightfoot rates him at that level too. And so does Leonard Cohen. And Neil Young. And how many other professional musicians of the time?

Were they all just being naive?

I think it's an either-or thing that works this way. You either relate to Dylan's particular form of expression...in which case you like it a lot. Or you don't...in which case it's opaque to you, and you can't understand why anyone would rate it that highly.

This doesn't prove anything about the value of Dylan's work one way or another, but it does indicate something about your own tastes...what you relate to...what you don't relate to.

For instance, I don't relate much to jazz. I never did. But I do realize it is high quality music. I just don't like it, that's all. It doesn't do anything for me. This is not to condemn jazz...it just shows something about what I relate to and what I don't relate to.

I also like brunettes...I am usually not much attracted to blondes or redheads. This says nothing about the relative value of being blonde or brunette or redheaded. It says something about how my strange little mind works. Why it works that way is a total mystery.

Dylan admired Joan Baez's musical abilities right from the start, but he basically remained independent of her...and probably felt pressured by her tendency to "mother" him. They both had very strong egos which were bound to clash at some point.

Yeah, he's got some of that Old Testament fire and judgement kind of thing in him for sure. You can see that all through his recorded work.

"Like a Rolling Stone" may have been written mostly about Edie Sedgewick, a poor little rich girl who was taken into the entourage around Andy Warhol, who intended to turn her into his movie star. It didn't turn out that way. She came to a bad end at a very young age. Her life was stunningly tragic. Warhol had figured to get Dylan into the weird circle that hovered around him, because that would be super "cool"...and Andy's whole life was about being incredibly cool... but he did not succeed. If Rolling Stone was about Edie Sedgewick, it was right on the mark. Warhol and his scene was like being plunged into a nightmare of "all style...no meaningful content whatsoever". Dylan was looking for something real, and he figured he'd found it when he married Sarah Lowndes, and retreated into a quiet life of domesticity and raising children.

And it worked very well for them...for about 8 years. The marriage fell apart when he started touring again in '74. I figure if constant touring won't kill your marriage...nothing will.

Subject: RE: BS: Bob Dylan theologian?
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 15 Apr 13 - 03:25 PM

"Bob Dylan would have been happy to be received as well as Elvis Presley. "

Is there any singer that wouldn't?

"The infatuation that Pete had for him, I could never understand. I think this is due to Pete's naivete. I remember saying this to Pete personally and it was one of the few times I've ever seen Pete angry."

So you told Pete Seeger that he was naive for liking Bob Dylan and that pissed Pete off? Imagine that!

"I don't agree that Dylan is a great poet."

You set the bar pretty high for poets don't you? Bob Dylan's words have touched millions. What would he have had to have done to be great?

Subject: RE: BS: Bob Dylan theologian?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 15 Apr 13 - 04:50 PM

Virtually everybody in the scene at that time was getting stoned! ;-D Dylan didn't need to talk anyone into it, that's for sure.

Consider the words of the song:

Well, they'll stone you when you're trying to be so good
They'll stone you just like they said they would
They'll stone you when you're tryna go home
Then they'll stone you when you're there all alone

(It's not about getting you stoned, it's about stoning you...and there's no escape from it. Doesn't matter what you do or where you go.)

But I would not feel so all aloneEverybody must get stoned

(Well...I'd be okay with it if everyone else had to face this same shit too...then I wouldn't feel so all alone)

Well, they'll stone you when you're walkin' along the streets
They'll stone you when you're tryna keep your seat
They'll stone you when you're walkin' on the floor
They'll stone you when you're walkin' to the door
But I would not feel so all aloneEverybody must get stoned

(same stuff as before...no escape from being stoned)

They'll stone you when you're at the breakfast table
They'll stone you when you are young and able
They'll stone you when you're tryna make a buck
They'll stone you and then they'll say, "Good luck"
Tell ya what, I would not feel so all aloneEverybody must get stoned

(how about the rest of you folks take some of these stones too?)

Well, they'll stone you and say that it's the end

(but it isn't)

Then they'll stone you and then they'll come back again

(see?)

They'll stone you when you're riding in your car

(no escape)

They'll stone you when you're playing your guitar

(naturally)

Yes but I would not feel so all aloneEverybody must get stoned, alright

Well, they'll stone you when you walk all alone
They'll stone you when you are walkin' home
They'll stone you and then say they all are brave
They'll stone you when you're set down in your grave
But I would not feel so all aloneEverybody must get stoned


The last regular line in bold above makes it quite clear what the song is really about. You can't get a person stoned (high) any longer once he's been set down in his grave...but you sure as hell can still "throw stones" (meaning criticism) at him. Note how many rhetorical stones are being thrown at Maggie Thatcher, now that she's in her grave. Criticism is a thing that goes on long after a person dies.

The party-like atmosphere of the song stands in hilarious contrast to the complaint that is really being expressed in the words...typical wry Dylan humour to do it that way, I think.

Subject: RE: BS: Bob Dylan theologian?
From: frogprince
Date: 15 Apr 13 - 10:25 PM

L.H., I thin you've got the plain sense of it, except:

"But I would not feel so all aloneEverybody must get stoned

(Well...I'd be okay with it if everyone else had to face this same shit too...then I wouldn't feel so all alone)"

I think the better paraphrase would be "When they stone you, don't feel like you're the only one; we all live with this crap".

Subject: RE: BS: Bob Dylan theologian?
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 15 Apr 13 - 10:33 PM

"But I would not feel so all aloneEverybody must get stoned"

Or I don't want to get stoned by myself so take a hit.

Subject: RE: BS: Bob Dylan theologian?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 15 Apr 13 - 11:50 PM

Frogprince - Cool insight! That's very well thought out, and I think you are probably right.

Jack - Sorry, but you just can't get stoned (high) anymore when you've been lowered into the grave. ;-) No use asking for another hit from your friends then.

Subject: RE: BS: Bob Dylan theologian?
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 16 Apr 13 - 12:29 AM

"You don't know my friends!"

To any federal authorities monitoring this, that was a joke.

Seriously hawk, there is a 99.99 % chance it is about both things. Bob IS that clever!

Subject: RE: BS: Bob Dylan theologian?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 16 Apr 13 - 12:31 AM

Yeah...that's a possibility, Jack. I can buy it being about both things. I can't buy it being just about drugs.