BS: Bob Dylan theologian?

Subject: RE: BS: Bob Dylan theologian?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 16 Apr 13 - 12:31 AM

Yeah...that's a possibility, Jack. I can buy it being about both things. I can't buy it being just about drugs.

Subject: RE: BS: Bob Dylan theologian?
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 16 Apr 13 - 12:29 AM

"You don't know my friends!"

To any federal authorities monitoring this, that was a joke.

Seriously hawk, there is a 99.99 % chance it is about both things. Bob IS that clever!

Subject: RE: BS: Bob Dylan theologian?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 15 Apr 13 - 11:50 PM

Frogprince - Cool insight! That's very well thought out, and I think you are probably right.

Jack - Sorry, but you just can't get stoned (high) anymore when you've been lowered into the grave. ;-) No use asking for another hit from your friends then.

Subject: RE: BS: Bob Dylan theologian?
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 15 Apr 13 - 10:33 PM

"But I would not feel so all aloneEverybody must get stoned"

Or I don't want to get stoned by myself so take a hit.

Subject: RE: BS: Bob Dylan theologian?
From: frogprince
Date: 15 Apr 13 - 10:25 PM

L.H., I thin you've got the plain sense of it, except:

"But I would not feel so all aloneEverybody must get stoned

(Well...I'd be okay with it if everyone else had to face this same shit too...then I wouldn't feel so all alone)"

I think the better paraphrase would be "When they stone you, don't feel like you're the only one; we all live with this crap".

Subject: RE: BS: Bob Dylan theologian?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 15 Apr 13 - 04:50 PM

Virtually everybody in the scene at that time was getting stoned! ;-D Dylan didn't need to talk anyone into it, that's for sure.

Consider the words of the song:

Well, they'll stone you when you're trying to be so good
They'll stone you just like they said they would
They'll stone you when you're tryna go home
Then they'll stone you when you're there all alone

(It's not about getting you stoned, it's about stoning you...and there's no escape from it. Doesn't matter what you do or where you go.)

But I would not feel so all aloneEverybody must get stoned

(Well...I'd be okay with it if everyone else had to face this same shit too...then I wouldn't feel so all alone)

Well, they'll stone you when you're walkin' along the streets
They'll stone you when you're tryna keep your seat
They'll stone you when you're walkin' on the floor
They'll stone you when you're walkin' to the door
But I would not feel so all aloneEverybody must get stoned

(same stuff as before...no escape from being stoned)

They'll stone you when you're at the breakfast table
They'll stone you when you are young and able
They'll stone you when you're tryna make a buck
They'll stone you and then they'll say, "Good luck"
Tell ya what, I would not feel so all aloneEverybody must get stoned

(how about the rest of you folks take some of these stones too?)

Well, they'll stone you and say that it's the end

(but it isn't)

Then they'll stone you and then they'll come back again

(see?)

They'll stone you when you're riding in your car

(no escape)

They'll stone you when you're playing your guitar

(naturally)

Yes but I would not feel so all aloneEverybody must get stoned, alright

Well, they'll stone you when you walk all alone
They'll stone you when you are walkin' home
They'll stone you and then say they all are brave
They'll stone you when you're set down in your grave
But I would not feel so all aloneEverybody must get stoned


The last regular line in bold above makes it quite clear what the song is really about. You can't get a person stoned (high) any longer once he's been set down in his grave...but you sure as hell can still "throw stones" (meaning criticism) at him. Note how many rhetorical stones are being thrown at Maggie Thatcher, now that she's in her grave. Criticism is a thing that goes on long after a person dies.

The party-like atmosphere of the song stands in hilarious contrast to the complaint that is really being expressed in the words...typical wry Dylan humour to do it that way, I think.

Subject: RE: BS: Bob Dylan theologian?
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 15 Apr 13 - 03:25 PM

"Bob Dylan would have been happy to be received as well as Elvis Presley. "

Is there any singer that wouldn't?

"The infatuation that Pete had for him, I could never understand. I think this is due to Pete's naivete. I remember saying this to Pete personally and it was one of the few times I've ever seen Pete angry."

So you told Pete Seeger that he was naive for liking Bob Dylan and that pissed Pete off? Imagine that!

"I don't agree that Dylan is a great poet."

You set the bar pretty high for poets don't you? Bob Dylan's words have touched millions. What would he have had to have done to be great?

Subject: RE: BS: Bob Dylan theologian?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 15 Apr 13 - 02:43 PM

Joan Baez thought he was the finest songwriter of that era. So did Judy Collins. And Phil Ochs. Gordon Lightfoot rates him at that level too. And so does Leonard Cohen. And Neil Young. And how many other professional musicians of the time?

Were they all just being naive?

I think it's an either-or thing that works this way. You either relate to Dylan's particular form of expression...in which case you like it a lot. Or you don't...in which case it's opaque to you, and you can't understand why anyone would rate it that highly.

This doesn't prove anything about the value of Dylan's work one way or another, but it does indicate something about your own tastes...what you relate to...what you don't relate to.

For instance, I don't relate much to jazz. I never did. But I do realize it is high quality music. I just don't like it, that's all. It doesn't do anything for me. This is not to condemn jazz...it just shows something about what I relate to and what I don't relate to.

I also like brunettes...I am usually not much attracted to blondes or redheads. This says nothing about the relative value of being blonde or brunette or redheaded. It says something about how my strange little mind works. Why it works that way is a total mystery.

Dylan admired Joan Baez's musical abilities right from the start, but he basically remained independent of her...and probably felt pressured by her tendency to "mother" him. They both had very strong egos which were bound to clash at some point.

Yeah, he's got some of that Old Testament fire and judgement kind of thing in him for sure. You can see that all through his recorded work.

"Like a Rolling Stone" may have been written mostly about Edie Sedgewick, a poor little rich girl who was taken into the entourage around Andy Warhol, who intended to turn her into his movie star. It didn't turn out that way. She came to a bad end at a very young age. Her life was stunningly tragic. Warhol had figured to get Dylan into the weird circle that hovered around him, because that would be super "cool"...and Andy's whole life was about being incredibly cool... but he did not succeed. If Rolling Stone was about Edie Sedgewick, it was right on the mark. Warhol and his scene was like being plunged into a nightmare of "all style...no meaningful content whatsoever". Dylan was looking for something real, and he figured he'd found it when he married Sarah Lowndes, and retreated into a quiet life of domesticity and raising children.

And it worked very well for them...for about 8 years. The marriage fell apart when he started touring again in '74. I figure if constant touring won't kill your marriage...nothing will.

Subject: RE: BS: Bob Dylan theologian?
From: Stringsinger
Date: 15 Apr 13 - 02:10 PM

"The above are quite simple lyrics, and the messages are obvious." In the song "Blowing in the Wind" the messages are so obvious as to be preachy and simplistic.

Bob Dylan would have been happy to be received as well as Elvis Presley. He was a show business figure who found a new way to reach the public. He took on the mantle of Woody Guthrie and maybe Jack Elliott.

The infatuation that Pete had for him, I could never understand. I think this is due to Pete's naivete. I remember saying this to Pete personally and it was one of the few times I've ever seen Pete angry. Don't cross Pete if he is.

I don't agree that Dylan is a great poet. He is clever, maybe like Ogden Nash without the sophistication and can turn a cute phrase but he is more of a symbol of rebellion and comes out of that need by adolescents who haven't quite grown up. He is also a symbol of nostalgia for the Sixties and yes he probably thought in those days "everybody needs to get stoned".

"Like A Rolling Stone" was an indictment of young girls or boys on the road who didn't come to grips with the reality of their situation. It has an air of judgement about it although as a song on the charts, it was interesting and a departure from the sentimentality that you usually find there.

In fact, there is an air of judgement that is almost Old Testament coming from Dylan.

An interesting book to read is "Positively Fourth Street" which talks about his relationship with Joan Baez. He's a bit of a misogynist. He is the product of a patriarchal attitude.

He is, however, a significant performer in the field of popular music. Watching him in the early days, he had a hypnotic effect on an audience, something that is built in the DNA I think and could mesmerize large audiences in a huge setting as well as people in a small room.

He captivated Joan Baez who went all out for him but he never reciprocated.

Subject: RE: BS: Bob Dylan theologian?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 14 Apr 13 - 08:17 PM

I think Jagger and Richards are a really excellent songwriting team, Jack.

Yes, I think you're quite right that most of Dylan's metaphors are in fact not vague...and can usually be readily understood in the context of the song. The thing that's really interesting, though, is that they sometimes work on several levels of meaning simultaneously. This isn't because they're vague, it's because they're well put.

That bunch of amusing hooey from the Beatles is more just a question of stringing a lot of words together that "sound" cool, but don't necessarily mean much. It works well as a song, though. Quite enjoyable to sing along with.

I think Bob calculated his career moves, yes. He did so brilliantly. He also, though, pretty much wrote whatever he felt like writing at the time. His timing just happened to be perfect when he wrote all those protest songs. His friendship with Suzie Rotolo surely was an influence, because she was very much involved in the New Left political scene, and that got Bob thinking about the topical issues of the day and writing about them between roughly '61 and '63. He got tired of it after awhile, and declared his resignation from that role in the 1964 song "My Back Pages" and the album "Another Side of Bob Dylan", turning instead to writing more personal, introspective songs and social comment of a much less specifically political nature. This was disappointing to people like Pete Seeger who were hoping that Dylan would be their "young lion of the Left" indefinitely.

As Dylan said in another song "everything passes, everything changes".

He, Neil Young, and Joni Mitchell have all insisted on moving into new phases whenever they got tired of an old one. They'd lose some disgruntled fans every time they did it, but they'd pick up a bunch of new ones at the same time.

Subject: RE: BS: Bob Dylan theologian?
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 14 Apr 13 - 05:51 PM

I enjoy Hemmingway's writing but is real talent was punchy little quotes.

Subject: RE: BS: Bob Dylan theologian?
From: Ed T
Date: 14 Apr 13 - 05:47 PM

""The first draft of anything is shit."" Ernest Hemingway

Subject: RE: BS: Bob Dylan theologian?
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 14 Apr 13 - 04:29 PM

"Theologian: An uncommon individual who, though possessing finite abilities, has been called by God himself who, though possessing infinite abilities, requires the assistance of the former in explaining Himself to the rest of us.
---Donald Morgan"

I spent quite a few years in settings where that would have met with solemn nods of appreciation. Now I wonder how it was meant. I'm unacquainted with Morgan. If he is a straight-up fundamentalist, I understand what he meant, though I now consider it essentially meaningless. But I wonder if it was said with obvious sarcasm... or with covert sarcasm, watching to see if it would draw a response of solemn nods of appreciation.

________________________________


Very amusing question FP. It may deserve its own thread.

I can't say whether Morgan was a straight-up fundamentalist or not. But to me it is apparent that he did not have a high opinion of theologians.

He certainly echoes an emotion I often feel.

I drive a lot, I like to hear people talking on the radio for company. I listen to NPR news programing where I can, Sports News or talk where I can (mostly because it is inane), In the absence of those "News" talk to see what the right wing talking points of the day are and self-described "christian radio"

What I mean here is the type of preacher who uses phrases like Christians and Catholics, implying that his type are the only real ones.

These guys, all of them seem to be guys, have their announcers call them "doctor" and talk about their theological degrees and Biblical scholarship and tell people how to lead "biblical lives" Which are anti-Muslim and anti-abortion, both of which, of course are post Bible. So aren't we lucky to have these theologians with their finite abilities to tell us how the Bible addresses these issues?

Subject: RE: BS: Bob Dylan theologian?
From: pdq
Date: 14 Apr 13 - 04:28 PM

"It balances on your head just like a mattress balances on a bottle of wine."


Isn't that song about Jackie Kennedy?

Subject: RE: BS: Bob Dylan theologian?
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 14 Apr 13 - 04:10 PM

Bob did a lot of calculating. More so than most I would think.

Blowing in the Wind has very simple structure, the symbolism is pretty standard, it was a matter of putting all that together at the right point in history I think. Bob was a very smart cookie then.

poetic question
poetic question
poetic question
Catchy answer.

I heard Keith Richards relate a story where John Lennon and Paul came to a session to write some songs for the Stones. Mick and Keith watched them and realized they could do it for themselves. There must have been some formula or else they wouldn't have picked it up in less than a day. Mick and Keith turned out to be competent songwriters. They were not as prolific as Dylan or John and Paul. But they have don't better than anyone else.

Subject: RE: BS: Bob Dylan theologian?
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 14 Apr 13 - 03:57 PM

Little Hawk, those are metaphors. Are they vague? The seem very clear to me. You translated them in minutes and I don't disagree with you one hair.

Now THESE are vague metaphors.

Songwriters: LENNON, JOHN WINSTON / MCCARTNEY, PAUL JAMES

I am he as you are he as you are me and we are all together.
See how they run like pigs from a gun, see how they fly.
I'm crying.

Sitting on a cornflake, waiting for the van to come.
Corporation tee-shirt, stupid bloody tuesday.
Man, you been a naughty boy, you let your face grow long.
I am the eggman, they are the eggmen.
I am the walrus, goo goo g'joob.

Mister city policeman sitting
Pretty little policemen in a row.
See how they fly like Lucy in the Sky, see how they run.
I'm crying, I'm crying.
I'm crying, I'm crying.

Yellow mother custard, dripping from a dead dog's eye.
Crabalocker fishwife, pornographic priestess,
Boy, you been a naughty girl you let your knickers down.
I am the eggman, they are the eggmen.
I am the walrus, goo goo g'joob.

Sitting in an english garden waiting for the sun.
If the sun don't come, you get a tan
From standing in the english rain.
I am the eggman, they are the eggmen.
I am the walrus, goo goo g'joob goo goo g'joob.

Expert textpert choking smokers,
Don't you think the joker laughs at you?
See how they smile like pigs in a sty,
See how they snied.
I'm crying.

Semolina pilchard, climbing up the eiffel tower.
Elementary penguin singing Hari Krishna.
Man, you should have seen them kicking edgar allan poe.
I am the eggman, They are the eggmen.
I am the walrus, goo goo g'joob goo goo g'joob goo goo g'joob.
Goo goo g'joob goo

Subject: RE: BS: Bob Dylan theologian?
From: frogprince
Date: 14 Apr 13 - 03:56 PM

A coherent mystery, or detective procedural, takes a whole bunch of calculation. Especially if there are some effectively done red herrings thrown in.

Subject: RE: BS: Bob Dylan theologian?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 14 Apr 13 - 03:49 PM

MtheGM - You make a good point. Okay, I'll buy the idea that some great writing can be done through calculation. It depends on what that writing is about. I don't think it's true of most songwriting, but it could certainly be true of a book on history or politics or something else along that line.

Subject: RE: BS: Bob Dylan theologian?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 14 Apr 13 - 03:46 PM

Jack -

"How many roads must a man walk down, before you call him a man?"

Metaphorically can mean: "How much life experience must each of us go through before attaining something approaching maturity?"

"How many seas must a white dove sail, before she sleeps in the sand?"

Can mean: What further trials must the human race go through before we manage to achieve peace in this wartorn world?

"How many times must the cannonballs fly, before they're forever banned?"

When will the nations of the Earth come to their senses and outlaw war?

"The answer my friend is blowing in the wind..."

We have no way of knowing the answers to these questions.

The above are quite simple lyrics, and the messages are obvious. They say a great deal in a few words. He has far more mysterious metaphors than that, but I don't want to spend the rest of my life typing out stuff about them.

Here's a cool one, though: "To live outside the law you must be honest"

To escape the smothering bounds of conventional thoughts and rules you must have the courage to be yourself, regardless of the consequences. That requires honesty.

The interpretations I've given for these various lines aren't the only ones. Clearly. But they are among the possibilities that the lines suggest.

Here's another fun line: "It balances on your head just like a mattress balances on a bottle of wine."

In other words, it's another good tool for seduction. An aphrodisiac, you might say...but the line is sung in a humorously sarcastic fashion.

These might not be the kind of metaphors you're looking for, of course.

Try looking up the lyrics of Jokerman. There's some very mysterious stuff happening in that one. Some of it's got to be about Jesus, some of it may be about Satan. It's not an easy one to be sure of one way or the other.

Subject: RE: BS: Bob Dylan theologian?
From: Ed T
Date: 14 Apr 13 - 03:18 PM

Like with most creative areas of life, I would expect that great lyric/poetic writing comes out of a variety of styles and efforts.

Subject: RE: BS: Bob Dylan theologian?
From: frogprince
Date: 14 Apr 13 - 03:16 PM

"Theologian: An uncommon individual who, though possessing finite abilities, has been called by God himself who, though possessing infinite abilities, requires the assistance of the former in explaining Himself to the rest of us.
---Donald Morgan"

I spent quite a few years in settings where that would have met with solemn nods of appreciation. Now I wonder how it was meant. I'm unacquainted with Morgan. If he is a straight-up fundamentalist, I understand what he meant, though I now consider it essentially meaningless. But I wonder if it was said with obvious sarcasm... or with covert sarcasm, watching to see if it would draw a response of solemn nods of appreciation.

Subject: RE: BS: Bob Dylan theologian?
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 14 Apr 13 - 03:12 PM

I've been running his lyrics though my head. I can't think of a single vague metaphor.

Help me out here.

Subject: RE: BS: Bob Dylan theologian?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 14 Apr 13 - 02:57 PM

Actually, LH, 'great writing' isn't only of one kind. It can be done 'by calculation', or by what Milton called "Warbling his native woodnotes wild". What you say may well apply to Dylan Thomas or Shelley or early Thomas Hardy, say; but I don't think it would do for Milton or Keats or Jane Austen or Henry James...

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Bob Dylan theologian?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 14 Apr 13 - 02:35 PM

The vague metaphors Dylan uses...those are what I call universal symbols. They are a just few words that can say a whole bunch of different things, not just one thing, so a single line can be saying things on 3 or 4 different levels of meaning all at the same time. One person may tune into 1 level only. Another may tune into 2 or 3 of the levels. Everyone finds whatever they can relate to in it.

And that's really good poetic writing. You didn't plan it. You didn't calculate it. It wasn't deliberate. You weren't   trying to be vague or mysterious or anything else when you did it. It just happened instinctively..because it happened naturally without your calculating mind interfering in the process at all.

Great writing isn't done by calculation. It's done by surrendering to the process of a brand new creation pouring through you, and letting it happen by its own power WITHOUT your calculating little mind getting in the way and screwing up the process.

This is something every great artist knows...and every didactic materialist will deny out of hand...because surrender is anathema to the materialist mind. It wants to be the king. The one in control. It admits to no greater truth or power than itself. It will not surrender. It intends to conquer or die. It's great at fighting wars, killing people, and turning out a billion more widgets, but it will never create a living work of art.

Subject: RE: BS: Bob Dylan theologian?
From: Ed T
Date: 14 Apr 13 - 02:26 PM

""We'd have to ask Bob...and he would probably not be one bit cooperative in giving us an answer""

Possibly, because he wouldn't remember himself :)

Subject: RE: BS: Bob Dylan theologian?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 14 Apr 13 - 02:11 PM

"He doesn't suffer fools gladly, even those sycophantic fools who regard him as some nouveau-Jesus."

Yeah, that's right, Steve. And that's one of the things I like about him, that he rejects that sort of fanatical and misplaced adulation from crazy fans who would make him into some kind of idol...leader...symbol of the movement...or whatever the heck they have burning a hole in their head.

I am no Dylan sycophant. I do not regard him as a prophet, the voice of his generation, someone who has all the answers, or someone whose every character detail I am eager to emulate. Hell, no. I just really like the way he writes songs, the way he sings them, and I appreciate his abilities in that particular respect.

I feel the same way about Leonard Cohen, Buffy Sainte-Marie, Mary Chapin Carpenter, Enya, Gordon Lightfoot, Loreena McKennit, Joan Baez, Ian Tyson, Sylvia Tyson, Lynn Miles (a contemporary Canadian folksinger), Al Stewart, and several other notable songwriters. I admire each one of them for their musical and creative gifts. I regard none of them as some kind of image of perfection to worship. I am a sycophant of none of them. I do not place Dylan above the rest of them.

On the scale of character, I'd be far more inclined to emulate Buffy Sainte-Marie or Joan Baez (knowing what I do about them) than Mr Dylan. On the scale of songwriting, I rate Lynn Miles and Leonard Cohen every bit as good as Bob Dylan....just each with their own particular style, that's all.

*********

Stringsinger - I don't think Mr Tambourine Man has one single thing to do with drugs. I think it has to do with the absolute joy and freedom that can be found in certain moments through playing music. The "tambourine man" was not your local drug dealer, he was Bruce Langhorne, banging joyfully on a big tambourine at a recording session with Bob Dylan in the early 60's. It's the "jingle jangle" morning because that's what a tambourine does...it jingles and jangles. If you're looking for joy and freedom, music is a way greater "trip" to go on than drugs will ever be. Drugs, like drink, are illusory effects on the nervous system, distortions in consciousness, but music is the real thing.

****

The "somebody" that most people really serve is their own flaming, self-centered, insecure, jealous, fearful, revengeful, and ravenous little ego. It leads them straight down the path to misery. And that's what religious philosophies of every sort in every part of the world have tried to free people from since the dawn of civilization...the prison of their limited little fear-dominated, ego-self that thinks it's all alone in a pitiless Universe...playing the wretched game of competition and (very short-lived) survival.

****

"Positively Fourth Street" is sort of paranoid, yeah. ;-) But not surprisingly for the year 1965, given how Dylan was being attacked and sniped at by former "friends" from all over in the folk community for supposedly being a "traitor" after having gone electric. He decided to record a big giant "Fuck you!" to all the people who were dissing him at the time...or presenting a friendly face in public while secretly hating and envying his success. He probably went too far in those lyrics....surely caused some hurt to quite a few people. Maybe he shouldn't have done it. But it still has an interesting power, that song. You know he means every word. It shocked people, because it was so explicit.

****

Jack - You're quite right that Rainy Day Women is "uncanny in capturing the feeling of a group of young people sitting around a coffee table rolling joints and passing them around". Yes, indeed! I still think the song is basically a metaphor for having stones hurled (not just by the press, but by lots of other people too)...I think it's about all the crap society throws at ALL of us right from the day we enter primary school till the day we die, but it may have something to say about drug use at the time too. I can't say for sure. We'd have to ask Bob...and he would probably not be one bit cooperative in giving us an answer. He wonders why they can't find something else to obsess about... ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Bob Dylan theologian?
From: Ed T
Date: 14 Apr 13 - 12:47 PM

""You stop serving "Someone" when you learn to think for yourself"".

I suspect not so. Unless you don't consider yourself "somebody? I doubt this would not be so for many "mudcat egos" :)

Subject: RE: BS: Bob Dylan theologian?
From: Stringsinger
Date: 14 Apr 13 - 12:04 PM

One of Dylan's achievements is that he is purposely vague in his metaphors. He is a Rorschach test in that so many interpretations can be given to his lyrics.

I think Dylan did flirt with drugs for a while. Most pop singers of the 60's did.
For example, "Mister Tambourine Man" suggests an LSD trip.

A lot of songs from the Sixties dealt with using drugs and to this I shrug my shoulders and say so what?

As for Dylan's lyrics, I find them sophomoric and shallow for the most part. The one love song I except and like is "Tomorrow is a Long Time". I think that there have been performers who have done his songs very well, much better than he.

He also becomes "Positively Paranoid" in "Positively Fourth Street".

I prefer Paul Simon or early Joni Mitchell instead of her later "Slouching to Bethlehem".

As a theologian, I don't see any important information coming from him about that subject. "You've Got to Serve Somebody" is an appeal to Authoritarianism, an attempt to embrace "Big Daddy" and I don't agree with the premise of the song.

You stop serving "Someone" when you learn to think for yourself.

Subject: RE: BS: Bob Dylan theologian?
From: Ed T
Date: 14 Apr 13 - 11:11 AM

As with a fine painting, it is clearly a talent to write poetry/lyrics that can be interpreted in so many ways by so many people over a relatively long period - wherever you are at that point in time in your interpretations, and outside of whatever stimulated Dylan in the writings.

""Whatever gets you through the night 'salright, 'salright""

Subject: RE: BS: Bob Dylan theologian?
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 14 Apr 13 - 10:59 AM

"Jack - (shrug) I see nothing in Dylan's work that suggests the kind of drug fascination that affected so many other singers' writing at the time. Yeah, it was a part of his life allright....like drinking pop or eating pizza is a part of people's life. A trivial part. Not particularly worth writing a bunch of songs about. "

It is my firm belief (without telling anyone how I might know) that the song with the lyric "everybody must get stoned", the music, the tone, the rhythm, is uncanny in capturing the feeling of a group of young people sitting around a coffee table rolling joints and passing them around. In fact, I believe that such things have been gleefully and knowingly done to that song. I guess it is possible that the song is a metaphor for the press attacking Dylan and the only stoning referred to is biblical, but I think that is very unlikely.

Is Bob Dylan a pop singer? Interesting thing to ponder. Most of his songs that were hits were pop hits for other artists. Especially back when folk music was popular music. Was he/is he just a pop artist? No he was a lot more than a pop singer. A writer most importantly. A preserver and exploiter of folk traditions, an opinion leader, a philosopher, a Traveling Wilbury a soundtrack writer, many things. But of course, no great shakes as theologian.

He was he s thoughtful Christian who expressed his feelings in song. I don't know if he still is. Does he have anything to say that is worthwhile. Is he edifying with respect to religion? That depends on the individual, doesn't it?

Subject: RE: BS: Bob Dylan theologian?
From: GUEST,Futwick
Date: 14 Apr 13 - 10:11 AM

Theologian: An uncommon individual who, though possessing finite abilities, has been called by God himself who, though possessing infinite abilities, requires the assistance of the former in explaining Himself to the rest of us.
---Donald Morgan

**Most pop music is just vapid and melodramatic love songs of one sort or another.**

Careful. A lot of people here seem to like those.

Subject: RE: BS: Bob Dylan theologian?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 14 Apr 13 - 07:51 AM

Well, I think that claiming for him false modesty or self-deprecation regarding his "pop-songs" statement is slightly wide of the mark. I think it was more like an expression of severe irritation at those people who are wont to put him on a pedestal. He doesn't suffer fools gladly, even those sycophantic fools who regard him as some nouveau-Jesus.

Subject: RE: BS: Bob Dylan theologian?
From: GUEST,Musket sans cookie
Date: 14 Apr 13 - 07:34 AM

When he said he writes pop songs..

Even a thick heathen like me feels that was false modesty.

Subject: RE: BS: Bob Dylan theologian?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 14 Apr 13 - 07:19 AM

His "self-deprecation"...?

I'm not sure what you mean. He has written quite a few songs where he criticizes himself stringently for his own failings...

Subject: RE: BS: Bob Dylan theologian?
From: GUEST,Musket sans cookie
Date: 14 Apr 13 - 06:52 AM

We seem to agree on the first point. Both disagree with Dylan's self deprecation but beyond that I don't look too deeply...

Subject: RE: BS: Bob Dylan theologian?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 14 Apr 13 - 06:45 AM

Well, Musket, I don't think of Bob Dylan as a theologian. I just think of him as a writer who has been strongly affected by religious and spiritual traditions and who thinks about theological and spiritual issues, therefore often writes material that reflects those issues. This is probably true of at least half the serious writers who have existed in the past couple of thousand years. ;-) Maybe a good deal more than half of them. So...no surprise that Dylan does it too.

To call Dylan "just a pop singer" is truly weird, and here's why. Most pop music is just vapid and melodramatic love songs of one sort or another. Turn on the radio, and you'll hear it. ;-) Serious and complex issues are almost never touched upon in pop music. Dylan has been writing about serious and complex issues all through his career. The audience that goes for pop music has generally been fairly oblivious to Dylan, because his material is way too serious for them...and it either fails to interest them at all or it scares them. Or they don't get it. A few of his songs have made it into what could vaguely be called "pop music", but that's only because his body of work is so huge and varied that it's made it into just about everything by now. He's too large for a single category.

Jack - (shrug) I see nothing in Dylan's work that suggests the kind of drug fascination that affected so many other singers' writing at the time. Yeah, it was a part of his life allright....like drinking pop or eating pizza is a part of people's life. A trivial part. Not particularly worth writing a bunch of songs about.

Subject: RE: BS: Bob Dylan theologian?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 14 Apr 13 - 06:42 AM

Still think btw that he was a dire singer whose diction was vile. Would far rather read any of his verse any time that listen to him inarticulately gabbling it.

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Bob Dylan theologian?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 14 Apr 13 - 06:39 AM

Ah, well; mellowing with age maybe, Hen?

☺~T~☺

Subject: RE: BS: Bob Dylan theologian?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 14 Apr 13 - 05:56 AM

All I was doing, The, was trying to provide a corrective to the lionising perpetrated in this thread by a handful of Dylan sycophants. My only disagreement with you about him used to be over which was the one good song he wrote. Down with shallow obscurantism, I say! You're softening, my man. ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Bob Dylan theologian?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 14 Apr 13 - 04:17 AM

Steve ~~ Not too sure about 'end of'. I should have thought so at one time; but am coming more and more to find Dylan well worth taking seriously as a poet: a lot of his apparently facile versification goes pretty deep on examination. Professor Christopher Ricks, holder of chairs at Oxford, Cambridge, and now Boston, rates him very highly as a poet; has even published a book on him, in addition to his distinguished work on Milton. He happened to be a Fellow of my Cambridge college for a while, and one of my most pleasant memories is of discussing 'Hattie Carroll' with him over lunch once some years ago.

In passing, comparisons might be made with another, English, singer-songwriter, largely of humorously satirical songs but also occasionally of a deeply spiritual Christian nature ~ Sydney Carter, writer of 'Lord Of The Dance' as well as of 'Tobacco, tobacco, I hate you I do' and 'It isn't much fun for a mixed up old man'.

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Bob Dylan theologian?
From: GUEST,Musket sans cookie
Date: 14 Apr 13 - 03:42 AM

LH. You missed my point and I apologise for not being eloquent enough.

Dylan wrote songs and indeed writes songs as a profession. Entertainment is the end product and in that he excels.

Looking deeper than that is interesting but misses the point. If he is a theologian, then theology is entertainment. For me it might be but I doubt religious people would see it that way.

The person who said he is just a pop singer? Oh, that'll be himself. Don't forget this thread came about because sailor boy tried using Dylan lyrics to justify some pro religious stance or other in one of the more entertaining threads.

Subject: RE: BS: Bob Dylan theologian?
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 13 Apr 13 - 11:11 PM

"
Dylan wrote about his life didn't he?

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Subject: RE: BS: Bob Dylan theologian?
From: Little Hawk - PM
Date: 13 Apr 13 - 08:19 PM

Yeah. "

Drugs were a big part of his life.

Subject: RE: BS: Bob Dylan theologian?
From: Ed T
Date: 13 Apr 13 - 09:57 PM

""....Dylan's drug use is there to be found in his work, particularly in his explosive mid sixties torrent of words and music, when Dylan seemed to be operating at an astonishingly frenzied pace of creativity...For those (if there are any left) who treat Bob Dylan as a latterday prophet, the revelation that he has dabbled in a demonised narcotic substance may be a disappointment. To anyone else, the correct response should be a shrug of the shoulders"". Neil McCormick,the Telegraph's chief rock music critic (May 23rd, 2011)


Another perspective

Subject: RE: BS: Bob Dylan theologian?
From: Ed T
Date: 13 Apr 13 - 09:42 PM

""the worst source of info about Dylan's past is often Dylan himself"" Andy Greene, Rolling Stone Music
.

Rollingstone article from 2011

Subject: RE: BS: Bob Dylan theologian?
From: pdq
Date: 13 Apr 13 - 09:13 PM

Bob Dylan changes all the time.

When one adventure gets old, he begins another.

Joni Mitchell is much the same, at least musically. So is Neil Young.

I supect his fist character in the early Greenwich Village days was based on Charlie Chaplin's character. He was quite comical.

Subject: RE: BS: Bob Dylan theologian?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 13 Apr 13 - 08:40 PM

It's pretty intense stuff. Went from roughly '79 to '81 or thereabouts.

Subject: RE: BS: Bob Dylan theologian?
From: frogprince
Date: 13 Apr 13 - 08:25 PM

I've been aware enough that Dylan, like Cohen, is saturated with religious imagery. I knew about his "Christian period", after which he said that three years of preaching was good enough for Jesus and good enough for him. I think I was just too immersed in some other life things during that period to know what music was written about anything, and just never picked up on that material.

Subject: RE: BS: Bob Dylan theologian?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 13 Apr 13 - 08:19 PM

Yeah.

Subject: RE: BS: Bob Dylan theologian?
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 13 Apr 13 - 08:04 PM

Dylan wrote about his life didn't he?

Subject: RE: BS: Bob Dylan theologian?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 13 Apr 13 - 08:02 PM

He's got 2 and a half entire albums of overtly religious songs, frogprince, (Slow Train Coming, Saved, Shot of Love) and a great many other songs on other albums which, though not overtly religious, certainly contain forms of spiritual parables and Biblical references. Almost all of John Wesley Harding, for example, is of that nature...the whole album is about temptation, sin, falling from grace, suffering, judgement, experiencing repentance, and seeing the possibility of redemption. It just isn't stated in overtly religious words. If you remove certain very specific words (God, Jesus, the Lord, Calvary, Pentecost, etc...) then people don't seem to notice that the songs are discussing the same basic moral and spiritual issues that are the main concerns of religion. This has been the case all through Dylan's songwriting, right from the start and to the present day.

It's also the case with Leonard Cohen. All the way through. They are very comparable in that sense, as well as in their mastery of great lyrics.

The main difference being...Dylan writes fast and spontaneously, just when the spirit hits him. Cohen writes slowing, very meticulously, with a longterm objective in mind in each song. That's why Dylan may write a great song in half an hour, while Leonard might do it in 3 years! ;-D Radically different approaches...similarly effective results.