BS: Bob Dylan theologian?

Subject: RE: BS: Bob Dylan theologian?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 Apr 13 - 08:01 PM

Bob Dylan? Pop singer. End of. And he agrees with that.

Subject: RE: BS: Bob Dylan theologian?
From: frogprince
Date: 13 Apr 13 - 07:47 PM

Subject: RE: BS: Bob Dylan theologian?
From: frogprince
Date: 13 Apr 13 - 07:40 PM

I wouldn't think of Dylan as a theologian, and I seriously doubt if he has ever tried to be one. The only Dylan song I know that I would consider to be "religious" is "Serve Somebody"; there may be others, but if so I've missed them. To me, "Serve Somebody" comes off as a rather flat-footed Christian sermon with little inspiration at best. He's been much more effective with songs that happen to touch on the implications of religion or it's misuse. At his best, I'm inclined to give him a measure of credit as a prophet , which to me just means one who stands out in his ability to communicate the truth. I don't think he has ever wanted to be a prophet either. Pat Robertson wants to be, and thinks he is, a prophet; I have at least a teensy bit more more (more like infinitely more) respect for Dylan.

Subject: RE: BS: Bob Dylan theologian?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 13 Apr 13 - 07:39 PM

I wasn't referring to you in the money and songs comment, Ed.

Being very familiar with pretty much the whole body of Dylan's recorded work, and being a songwriter myself, I frankly doubt that drugs influenced his songwriting other than giving him the energy to work long hours at it. Virtually everyone took drugs back then (just myself and Joan Baez excluded?)(smile), and the standard assumption at the time was to find supposed drug references lurking in everyone's song lyrics. That was tiresome nonsense as far as I was concerned. People were making drug use glamorous...and that's about as dumb as making alcholism or tobbaco smoking glamorous.

In Dylan's case, I don't find much at all to suggest drug references in his songs...rather he seems to be talking about almost everything else under the sun, but not wasting his time indulging in surreal crowd-pleasing lyrics about "getting high".

A lot of musicians fell for that sense of being supercool by playing the "bad boy", showing off their familarity with drugs, and playing that role like it was somehow heroic. They figured it would please their fans. And it did. I see little evidence that Dylan ever followed that common line. He took drugs, all right, but I don't think he regarded them as anything significant in connection with increasing artistic creativity.

Subject: RE: BS: Bob Dylan theologian?
From: Ed T
Date: 13 Apr 13 - 07:14 PM

""Dylan has himself said in interviews that his songwriting was never influenced in its content by drugs...and I believe him...but that the purpose the drugs served for him in the mid-60s was simply to give him the physical energy he needed to deal with an incredible grueling touring schedule""

I don't know, LH, possibly so, I suspect more likely not so (considering the era and industry). I do recall many entertainers and famous people saying similar things about drugs (including alcohol), denying their impact or influence. I have no reason to believe Dylan more than the other folks. People who deal with additions will tell you that at some point it is difficult to separate the two, and often the people involved are in denial and see reality last, if ever.

However, I was not "dising" the guy for using drugs (even when he wrote).It is just a part of that inductry. And, don't get me wrong, money and songs never concerned me.

Subject: RE: BS: Bob Dylan theologian?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 13 Apr 13 - 06:56 PM

Ed, Dylan has himself said in interviews that his songwriting was never influenced in its content by drugs...and I believe him...but that the purpose the drugs served for him in the mid-60s was simply to give him the physical energy he needed to deal with an incredible grueling touring schedule. He needed a lot of energy, he needed to stay awake for long hours, so he took various types of uppers which helped him do that....just as a lot of truck drivers do when they're on long runs.

He is recorded in a concert in England, commenting disgustedly on the press labelling some of his songs as "drug songs"...and very pointedly says "I don't write drug songs...it's just vulgar to think so". His irritation with the very notion that he would do that is palpable.

As for Rainy Day Women (Everybody Must Get Stoned)...it's not about drugs. It's a metaphor for people throwing stones at a person (criticizing them), and it's expressing the thought that "I wouldn't feel so alone here if everyone else around here had to suffer the same kind of constant criticism for what they do as I do...so let's all get those same stones thrown at us and be in this together...let's share that feeling". Picture a mob stoning someone to death for some imagined "heresy", and you get the picture. His whole song points out that there is no escape from that sort of crap if you're noticed at all...wherever you go, whatever you do, in this society people are gonna throw those stones at you. It makes them feel righteous. It makes them feel like they are better than the one they're throwing the stones at.

I think of this whenever people begrudge him for having made a lot of money by writing songs. As if they wouldn't like to......! Hypocrites.

Subject: RE: BS: Bob Dylan theologian?
From: Ed T
Date: 13 Apr 13 - 05:27 PM

IMO, in addition to being an entertainer-singer, and his songs were entertaining (in addition to being important throughout periods of history).

Dylan is an excellent poet. His poems stimulate me and many others. The words often briefly opened up thoughts that I possibly would not have accessed through other routes. Some of the poems have clear messages, while the aspect of other messages obtained may vary from person to person. My take on Dylans writings is he was/is often puzzled himself as to where the words of his songs came from (possibly, some influenced by drugs).

My observation on Dylan is that he was confused when it came to religion, bouncing about to find one that "fit" for him. I remain uncertain if he ever found that comfortable place inside (or outside) religion.

I see Dylan's songs "may have relected" profoundly on religion or not, depending on how you looked at 'em - much like with abstract art. But, they never had a significant impact on me - outside being good songs with interesting life messages. However, no other singer/poet had that impact on me either - though I admired George Harrison's level of commitment to what he seemed to firmly believe.

Subject: RE: BS: Bob Dylan theologian?
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 13 Apr 13 - 04:50 PM

Thanks Arkie!

Can I say that you are answering "No" to theologian "Yes" to edifying and that the requirement of theologian is not required for it to be edifying.

I am sorry for not expressing myself well, but now that I see it, that is the type of answer I was looking for.

Since no one seems to see him as a theologian perhaps "no great shakes as a theologian" was used ironically? OK point taken.

I find his insights to be clever and while I do not see him as an authority on anything except perhaps "the Hurricane" as the song was the length of a history thesis, I do think he is worthy of quoting once in a while.

I have another question. How have Dylan's religious songs influenced you?

Subject: RE: BS: Bob Dylan theologian?
From: GUEST,Arkie
Date: 13 Apr 13 - 04:26 PM

Of course Dylan is not a theologian. Many ministers who preach every Sunday are not theologians either. But one can still comment on subjects related to the discipline without having a degree. Seems to me that Dylan is more like an astute observer and often his comments provoke thought. While one might want to argue a bit over the title of "Gotta Serve Somebody" and question the use of 'gotta' or 'somebody' the fact is people do serve 'something' even if it is their own self interest.

emusic lists over 60 recordings of "Gotta Serve Somebody" though there are duplications. Some by religious artists. Number does not include recordings by a group calling themselves 'Gotta Serve Somebody'.

Subject: RE: BS: Bob Dylan theologian?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 13 Apr 13 - 12:37 PM

Theologians don't copyright their work? Where the hell did you get that idea?

Your comments are just quite silly, Musket. Bob always simply wrote whatever he felt like writing at the time, that's totally obvious if you know anything about him, and he took all kinds of flak for doing so. That's what most serious songwriters do...they write exactly what they WANT to write at the time, just because that's what naturally comes out of them at the time. You don't plan it...it just happens! Yeah, sure it entertains those who happen to like it. Why not? And sure it makes money for Bob. Why not? It's his chosen profession, you silly bastard! How else is he supposed to earn a living in this world but by following the one vocation he has taken up in life since age 20?

Would you expect not to be paid...and well paid...for following your chosen line of work in this life?

One thing I like about buying any Dylan album is: I know he's getting a little bit of the money I just paid for it. He bloody well earned it! After all, he has to put up with pointless comments from insufferable prats like you all the time.

Tempest is a very good album. I was surprised how good it was. Pretty intense writing for a guy who's over 70 years old.

He said that he was thinking of doing another religious album soon, but instead he wrote all that stuff on Tempest. That's what songwriting is like. It's unexpected. You may think you've got other plans in mind, but when the songs come they come by their own plan, not yours. And if you're lucky, you get them down when the moment strikes.

Subject: RE: BS: Bob Dylan theologian?
From: Ebbie
Date: 13 Apr 13 - 03:18 AM

"Definition of THEOLOGIAN: a specialist in theology"

Is Dylan a theologian? Of course not.

His theology, on the other hand, one may agree or disagree with. I like and sing a LOT of gospel songs whose theology I disagree with.

Many of Dylan's songs, imo, are remarkable. Edifying? In what sense? If a song makes me think in a different way or learn something or points out a conundrum or even an outright contradiction, yeah, it is edifying. Many of Dylan's songs do that.

Subject: RE: BS: Bob Dylan theologian?
From: GUEST,Musket sans cookie
Date: 13 Apr 13 - 02:43 AM

If he is a theologian, why bother copyrighting the songs?

Could it be that they were designed purely as entertainment? Were they written to bring the bacon home? (Metaphorically speaking in his case.)

The £7.99 I spent on Tempest the other month says more about his philosophy than reading too deeply into his mind.

Subject: RE: BS: Bob Dylan theologian?
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 13 Apr 13 - 02:19 AM

Well, 'Beauty, as well as ugly, is in the eye of the beholder'....

And only Bob nose God and his singing like nobody else nose!

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Bob Dylan theologian?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 13 Apr 13 - 12:11 AM

If you believe in God, everybody's connected to God...whether they know it or not. That doesn't necessarily mean they're going to deliver any great revelations, though. I like Bob's religious songs. They're intense, he obviously means what he's saying, and they usually make a pretty strong point.

His comments to the interviewer in your clip are a bit mysterious, GFS. Some think he's referring to God. Some think he's referring to the Devil. Whichever it was, it more likely seems like it was God to me, cos he's always written from a godly point of view, so to speak.

The words in songs like "Gotta Serve Somebody", "Every Grain of Sand", "In the Garden", and "With God on our Side" are all very good....the last song referring to the unholy and very common practice of governments and leaders pretending God is on their side when they take a country to war.

Subject: RE: BS: Bob Dylan theologian?
From: Ed T
Date: 12 Apr 13 - 09:43 PM

Nose-theology song, and Bob Dylan

Dylan has a rather special kind of nasal breathing through his nostrils that results in the characteristic buzzing sound when he sings. It's kinda like his nose or nasal cavity is burning, smok'in and on fire.

God's anger is shown by His burning nose in the Hebrew Bible. His life is given by breath from His nostrils, His power is blasted out in nose-smoke. Yahweh's "anger" burns: Which is actually burning is His nose.
His nose burns at Moses. Exodus 4:14 is the first use of the idiom in the Hebrew Bible, and Yahweh's nose is burning at the mediator.   Yahweh's nose will burn at His people (Exodus 32:10), and Moses, the one against whom Yahweh's nose first burned, will stand to intercede, to pacify Yahweh's nose.

I am not saying that Bob is connected in anyway to God - 'cause he isn't. But, this may be the connection between God, Bob and theology and music that could confuse some?

(BTW, Bob did once say, in a song, that God gave names to all the animals, in the beginning. But, he did not say in which language they were named or when specifically? :)


""You can pick your friends,
and you can pick your nose,
but you can't pick your friend's nose.
That rule doesn't apply around here"".
Quote, from Jeremy

Subject: RE: BS: Bob Dylan theologian?
From: Bobert
Date: 12 Apr 13 - 08:05 PM

Yup, that's Bob...

Nice clip, GfinS...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Bob Dylan theologian?
From: GUEST,Guest from sanity
Date: 12 Apr 13 - 08:02 PM

You may be interested...

Sound familiar?

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Bob Dylan theologian?
From: Bobert
Date: 12 Apr 13 - 07:38 PM

As we know, Dylan has bounced around religions... He does seem to have a decent understanding of comparative religion and knows his way around the Bible from various reference in songs over his long career...

As for being a theologian??? I guess, only he knows for sure... Sometimes people impress with revealing everything they know and others impress with revealing just the tip of the iceberg...

Like I said, only Dylan knows...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Bob Dylan theologian?
From: Dead Horse
Date: 12 Apr 13 - 07:36 PM

Bob Dylan. Poet. Musician.
Anything else is individual speculation.

Subject: BS: Bob Dylan theologian?
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 12 Apr 13 - 07:20 PM

This is below the line because it is BS. BS about Bob Dylan is still BS IMHO. Lets see how many people don't read the first line of the thread. If you have read this and still want the thread moved above the line please put the following word in your outraged post. "Hibbing"

So here is the real thread. Someone has said the following on this hallowed forum after I dared to post the lyrics to "Gotta Serve Somebody"

"I've learned that Bob Dylan is no great shakes as a theologian and to take his songs seriously doesn't seem edifying."

And someone else said this!

As you quoted Dylan, I refer you to Dylan. Only I can't be arsed to print out the words to God on our side.

So what is it?

(Taking Bob Dylan ) songs seriously doesn't seem edifying

What about y'all? Is it edifying for y'all??


"Gotta Serve Somebody"

You may be an ambassador to England or France
You may like to gamble, you might like to dance
You may be the heavyweight champion of the world
You may be a socialite with a long string of pearls.

But you're gonna have to serve somebody, yes indeed
You're gonna have to serve somebody,
It may be the devil or it may be the Lord
But you're gonna have to serve somebody.

Might be a rock'n' roll adict prancing on the stage
Might have money and drugs at your commands, women in a cage
You may be a business man or some high degree thief
They may call you Doctor or they may call you Chief.

But you're gonna have to serve somebody, yes indeed
You're gonna have to serve somebody,
Well, it may be the devil or it may be the Lord
But you're gonna have to serve somebody.

You may be a state trooper, you might be an young turk
You may be the head of some big TV network
You may be rich or poor, you may be blind or lame
You may be living in another country under another name.

But you're gonna have to serve somebody, yes
You're gonna have to serve somebody,
Well, it may be the devil or it may be the Lord
But you're gonna have to serve somebody.

You may be a construction worker working on a home
You may be living in a mansion or you might live in a dome
You might own guns and you might even own tanks
You might be somebody's landlord you might even own banks.

But you're gonna have to serve somebody, yes
You're gonna have to serve somebody,
Well, it may be the devil or it may be the Lord
But you're gonna have to serve somebody.

You may be a preacher with your spiritual pride
You may be a city councilman taking bribes on the side
You may be working in a barbershop, you may know how to cut hair
You may be somebody's mistress, may be somebody's heir.

But you're gonna have to serve somebody, yes
You're gonna have to serve somebody,
Well, it may be the devil or it may be the Lord
But you're gonna have to serve somebody.

Might like to wear cotton, might like to wear silk
Might like to drink whiskey, might like to drink milk
You might like to eat caviar, you might like to eat bread
You may be sleeping on the floor, sleeping in a king-sized bed.

But you're gonna have to serve somebody, yes indeed
You're gonna have to serve somebody,
It may be the devil or it may be the Lord
But you're gonna have to serve somebody.

You may call me Terry, you may call me Jimmy
You may call me Bobby, you may call me Zimmy
You may call me R.J., you may call me Ray
You may call me anything but no matter what you say.

You're gonna have to serve somebody, yes indeed
You're gonna have to serve somebody,
Well, it may be the devil or it may be the Lord
But you're gonna have to serve somebody.


With God On Our Side Lyrics

by Bob Dylan. From Fahrenheit 9/11



With God On Our Side by Bob Dylan
Oh my name it is nothin'
My age it means less
The country I come from
Is called the Midwest
I's taught and brought up there
The laws to abide
And that land that I live in
Has God on its side.

Oh the history books tell it
They tell it so well
The cavalries charged
The Indians fell
The cavalries charged
The Indians died
Oh the country was young
With God on its side.

Oh the Spanish-American
War had its day
And the Civil War too
Was soon laid away
And the names of the heroes
I's made to memorize
With guns in their hands
And God on their side.

Oh the First World War, boys
It closed out its fate
The reason for fighting
I never got straight
But I learned to accept it
Accept it with pride
For you don't count the dead
When God's on your side.

When the Second World War
Came to an end
We forgave the Germans
And we were friends
Though they murdered six million
In the ovens they fried
The Germans now too
Have God on their side.

I've learned to hate Russians
All through my whole life
If another war starts
It's them we must fight
To hate them and fear them
To run and to hide
And accept it all bravely
With God on my side.

But now we got weapons
Of the chemical dust
If fire them we're forced to
Then fire them we must
One push of the button
And a shot the world wide
And you never ask questions
When God's on your side.

In a many dark hour
I've been thinkin' about this
That Jesus Christ
Was betrayed by a kiss
But I can't think for you
You'll have to decide
Whether Judas Iscariot
Had God on his side.

So now as I'm leavin'
I'm weary as Hell
The confusion I'm feelin'
Ain't no tongue can tell
The words fill my head
And fall to the floor
If God's on our side
He'll stop the next war.