BS: Explosions at Boston Marathon

Subject: BS: Explosions at Boston Marathon
From: beardedbruce
Date: 15 Apr 13 - 03:22 PM

Several people have been hurt in two explosions near the Boston Marathon finish line, CBS Boston reports.

There were two booms heard from near the finish line inside the Fairmount Copley Plaza Hotel.

WBZ-TV says the medical tent near the end of the marathon course has been filled with many people who have been "gravely injured."

It happened around 2:45 p.m. outside Marathon Sports on Boylston Street, according to WBZ-TV's Lis Hughes, who was near the scene covering the marathon.

There were two "incredibly powerful explosions just seconds apart," according to Hughes.

Watch live finish line camera here on CBS Boston
Race officials locked down the hotel because of the report.

The sound of two booms, which sounded like thunder, had come a short time earlier.

Subject: RE: BS: Explosions at Boston Marathon
From: beardedbruce
Date: 15 Apr 13 - 03:26 PM

https://twitter.com/MattNorlander/status/323877651444015104/photo/1

Subject: RE: BS: Explosions at Boston Marathon
From: beardedbruce
Date: 15 Apr 13 - 03:56 PM

pr 15, 2013 3:27pm
CLICK HERE FOR PHOTOS FROM THE SCENE
3:43 pm ET: Trauma nurse tells ABC News that the race's medical tent has become a makeshift morgue. Dealing with injuries including severed limbs and children with severe burns.
3:41 pm ET: Eyewitness Hayden Cary describes a "hectic, crazy scene." Heard explosion go off within seconds of each other near a car, steps from finish line.
CLICK HERE FOR LIVE STREAMING COVERAGE AT THE SCENE
3:34 pm ET: Police bomb squads sweep area looking for suspicious packages.
3:29 pm ET: Massachusetts General Hospital confirms at least 4 injured taken there.
3:25 pm ET: Police warning people in area to avoid trash cans.
3:15 pm ET: Boston Police Department says two explosions on Boyleston street near the finish line of the Boston Marathon. Police, fire and bomb squad responding. The number of injuries is unknown. The cause is unknown.
The two explosions took place around 3pm, within second of each other. The first runners in the marathon crossed the finish line around noon.



http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/headlines/2013/04/live-updates-boston-marathon-explosion/

Subject: RE: BS: Explosions at Boston Marathon
From: Rapparee
Date: 15 Apr 13 - 03:57 PM

There are reports of a third, but controlled, explosion for something the police found.

Subject: RE: BS: Explosions at Boston Marathon
From: GUEST,olddude
Date: 15 Apr 13 - 04:00 PM

they said they are not sure of the cause, well looking at that blast on CNN that puppy is a terrorist act. No question in my mind. The smoke plume and thermal is a device not some ruptured steam line. Call it as it is.

Subject: RE: BS: Explosions at Boston Marathon
From: Rapparee
Date: 15 Apr 13 - 04:07 PM

Yeah, I thought so too. But I'll wait for more information. But they better not hurt the Boston Public Library or I'll get REALLY angry!

Subject: RE: BS: Explosions at Boston Marathon
From: ranger1
Date: 15 Apr 13 - 04:07 PM

Right now I'm less concerned with how and more for the people I know who are running today.

Subject: RE: BS: Explosions at Boston Marathon
From: beardedbruce
Date: 15 Apr 13 - 04:13 PM

"3:55 pm ET: Police set off controlled explosion in Boston. Third explosion hear."

Subject: RE: BS: Explosions at Boston Marathon
From: beardedbruce
Date: 15 Apr 13 - 04:17 PM

" 4:11 pm ET: Boston Fire Department to brief media at 4:30pm at Westin Hotel."

Subject: RE: BS: Explosions at Boston Marathon
From: Alice
Date: 15 Apr 13 - 04:17 PM

Two reported deaths so far, and when it first happened, there were horrific photos coming in to me online. Insanity, insanity.

Subject: RE: BS: Explosions at Boston Marathon
From: Ebbie
Date: 15 Apr 13 - 04:22 PM

Thoughts and prayers.

Subject: RE: BS: Explosions at Boston Marathon
From: beardedbruce
Date: 15 Apr 13 - 04:24 PM

"4:21 pm ET: Boston Police confirms they have found three more suspicious devices. One has been rendered safe.
"

Subject: RE: BS: Explosions at Boston Marathon
From: catspaw49
Date: 15 Apr 13 - 04:29 PM

Some very serious injuries being reported as well as the deaths.....dimemberments, etc.

We are not so far out of the trees............


Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: Explosions at Boston Marathon
From: beardedbruce
Date: 15 Apr 13 - 04:30 PM

"4:29

Jason Sickles, Yahoo News: A federal law enforcement source tells CBS News "hell, yes" they were bombs."

Subject: RE: BS: Explosions at Boston Marathon
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 15 Apr 13 - 04:31 PM

Peter Sagal, the host of Wait, Wait, Don't Tell Me had just crossed the finish line when the explosions happened. He was just interviewed on NPR. No news they can offer yet, just the report that it happened. Twitter is probably the best source, trending #bostonmarathon.

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: Explosions at Boston Marathon
From: beardedbruce
Date: 15 Apr 13 - 04:31 PM

"4:29
The Boston Globe@BostonGlobeUPDATE: Another suspicious package was reported near the Harvard #MBTA station"

Subject: RE: BS: Explosions at Boston Marathon
From: beardedbruce
Date: 15 Apr 13 - 04:33 PM

4:29

Jason Gilbert: CBS News reporting that 6 are in critical condition at Mass General hospital alone.
4:30

Jason Sickles, Yahoo News: Cause unknown at this time. No suspects have been identified.
4:30
Boston Police Dept.@Boston_PoliceNews conference in 15 minutes Westin Hotel #tweetfromthebeat via @CherylFiandaca
4:30
NECN@NECN#MBTA police asking people who see anything suspicious to call: 617-222-1212

Subject: RE: BS: Explosions at Boston Marathon
From: beardedbruce
Date: 15 Apr 13 - 04:35 PM

"4:34
Comment From Pat Ynnac
wbz reported that a device was found under the grand stands, it was deactivated
"

Subject: RE: BS: Explosions at Boston Marathon
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 15 Apr 13 - 04:36 PM

Yeah certainly bombs. terrorist? probably or nut job or assassin or murderer

Subject: RE: BS: Explosions at Boston Marathon
From: beardedbruce
Date: 15 Apr 13 - 04:39 PM

"4:24 pm ET: A Federal law enforcement authority confirms to ABC News this was an intentional bombing, using small portable explosive devices."

Subject: RE: BS: Explosions at Boston Marathon
From: TIA
Date: 15 Apr 13 - 04:39 PM

Connection to Patriot's Day?

Subject: RE: BS: Explosions at Boston Marathon
From: beardedbruce
Date: 15 Apr 13 - 04:40 PM

"4:39

Jason Sickles, Yahoo News: From the Associated Press: "British police also say they are reviewing security plans for Sunday's London Marathon. It's the next major international marathon. A London Metropolitan Police spokesman says police are working with marathon officials to review security plans.""

Subject: RE: BS: Explosions at Boston Marathon
From: beardedbruce
Date: 15 Apr 13 - 04:43 PM

http://www.theatlantic.com/infocus/2013/04/photos-of-the-boston-marathon-bombing/100495/

Subject: RE: BS: Explosions at Boston Marathon
From: Jeri
Date: 15 Apr 13 - 04:45 PM

Athlete Tracking

Subject: RE: BS: Explosions at Boston Marathon
From: beardedbruce
Date: 15 Apr 13 - 04:45 PM

"4:43

Jason Sickles, Yahoo News: The New York Post reporting: A federal law-enforcement source confirmed to The Post there are at least 12 dead and nearly 50 injured. Fox News reported that Massachusetts General Hospital was treating 10 people with amputated limbs and all operating rooms were on hold. Authorities have a identified a suspect, who is currently being guarded in a Boston hospital with shrapnel wounds."

Subject: RE: BS: Explosions at Boston Marathon
From: TIA
Date: 15 Apr 13 - 04:46 PM

Thank you Jeri

Subject: RE: BS: Explosions at Boston Marathon
From: beardedbruce
Date: 15 Apr 13 - 04:49 PM

"4:47

Jason Gilbert: Boston Police have only confirmed 2 dead. New York Post reporting 12 dead, but that is unconfirmed."

Subject: RE: BS: Explosions at Boston Marathon
From: TIA
Date: 15 Apr 13 - 04:49 PM

Good God the photos BB linked to are ghastly

Subject: RE: BS: Explosions at Boston Marathon
From: beardedbruce
Date: 15 Apr 13 - 04:51 PM

4:49
WBUR@WBUR.@Boston_Police confirm one explosion at JFK Library, investigating if related to #bostonmarathon explosions
4:50
NECN@NECNTUNE-IN RIGHT NOW FOR NEWS CONFERENCE: ON AIR AND LIVESTREAMING: NECN.COM

Subject: RE: BS: Explosions at Boston Marathon
From: beardedbruce
Date: 15 Apr 13 - 04:57 PM

4:56
NECN@NECNFamilies of victims looking for information can call: 617-635-4500
4:57

Jason Sickles, Yahoo News: Police say they are investigating all leads right now ... not confirming the number of fatalities at this time.

Subject: RE: BS: Explosions at Boston Marathon
From: beardedbruce
Date: 15 Apr 13 - 04:59 PM

4:58
NECN@NECNLaw enforcement official: Cellphone service shut down in Boston area to prevent potential remote detonations of explosives, according to @AP

Subject: RE: BS: Explosions at Boston Marathon
From: ranger1
Date: 15 Apr 13 - 04:59 PM

Thanks, Jeri. I know that the two friends I haven't heard from yet finished before the explosions. Hopefully Kathy messages me soon that they're ok.

Subject: RE: BS: Explosions at Boston Marathon
From: Alice
Date: 15 Apr 13 - 05:04 PM

Google has provided this:
http://google.org/personfinder/2013-boston-explosions

Looking for someone or have info about someone at Boston explosions, go to link above.


Alice

Subject: RE: BS: Explosions at Boston Marathon
From: beardedbruce
Date: 15 Apr 13 - 05:11 PM

5:10
NBC Sports Network@NBCSNReports of Marathon Runners that crossed finish line and continued to run to Mass General Hospital to give blood to victims #PrayforBoston

Subject: RE: BS: Explosions at Boston Marathon
From: ranger1
Date: 15 Apr 13 - 05:13 PM

Phew. Last two friends have been accounted for. One, a registered nurse, finished in between the first two explosions and immediately headed into the crowd to help.

Subject: RE: BS: Explosions at Boston Marathon
From: beardedbruce
Date: 15 Apr 13 - 05:22 PM

"5:20

Virginia Heffernan, Y! News: JFK Library says:
"Investigators are investigating. Any tie to Boston Marathon explosions is pure speculation. More information as we receive it."
5:21

Virginia Heffernan, Y! News: So scratch the idea that a connection between the marathon explosions and the library explosion is all but confirmed. It's back to "pure speculation""

Subject: RE: BS: Explosions at Boston Marathon
From: beardedbruce
Date: 15 Apr 13 - 05:31 PM

5:22 pm ET: Federal law enforcement officials are treating incident as a "terrorist attack."

Subject: RE: BS: Explosions at Boston Marathon
From: Greg F.
Date: 15 Apr 13 - 06:17 PM

Two words, People:



Timothy McVeigh.



Good thing they all but disbanded the Domestic Terrorism Unit of Baby Bush's Department of Hopeless Stupidity

Subject: RE: BS: Explosions at Boston Marathon
From: Ron Davies
Date: 15 Apr 13 - 06:38 PM

"Two words".    Premature to say that.   We'll see. Plenty of possibilities.

At this point, speculation helps nobody.

Which of course doesn't stop some Mudcatters, longtime Olympic champions in Leaping to Conclusions, from favoring us with their wisdom.

Subject: RE: BS: Explosions at Boston Marathon
From: bbc
Date: 15 Apr 13 - 06:39 PM

Tami, I'm glad your friends are ok! This is hitting me hard. I grew up in a suburb of Boston. Patriot's Day was a school holiday & my mom worked on the Marathon route & would take breaks to watch the runners go by. This is so awful! What a world we live in.

Barbara

Subject: RE: BS: Explosions at Boston Marathon
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 15 Apr 13 - 06:54 PM

Timothy McVeigh? I guess GregF. has some special knowledge about a copycat perpetrator.

Subject: RE: BS: Explosions at Boston Marathon
From: Bobert
Date: 15 Apr 13 - 07:02 PM

Fucked up...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Explosions at Boston Marathon
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 15 Apr 13 - 07:09 PM

Obviously it's an act of terrorism. That doesn't imply anythinh whatsoever about who did it. I took it that greg's point was that it could as well be home grown terrorists as foreign.

Subject: RE: BS: Explosions at Boston Marathon
From: Jeri
Date: 15 Apr 13 - 07:12 PM

Early for speculation, but there's an information vacuum, so that's all we have. It's tax day, it's Patriot's Day, and once upon a time, there was a "Boston Tea Party". I think it's domestic, and the level of angry rhetoric fuels the crazies.

It's good it wasn't worse, but they're saying an 8 year old kid was killed, and anybody killed is bad enough.

Subject: RE: BS: Explosions at Boston Marathon
From: Rapparee
Date: 15 Apr 13 - 07:22 PM

Aurora, Colorado: terrorism.
Newtown, Connecticut: terrorism.
Chicago, Illinois: terrorism.
Holbrook, Idaho: terrorism.
London, England: terrorism.
Belfast, Northern Ireland: terrorism.
Baghdad, Iraq: terrorism.
Columbine High School, Colorado: terrorism.
Mombai, India: terrorism.
Boston, Massachusetts: terrorism.

ANY violent act is an act of terrorism. Some are larger in scale than others. The difference between a drive-by shooting and a car bomb exploding in a busy shopping district is only one of size.

Subject: RE: BS: Explosions at Boston Marathon
From: Bobert
Date: 15 Apr 13 - 07:46 PM

There is no logical argument that this was anything but an act of terrorism...

We'll just have to let the FBI figure it out and...

... I trust they will...

The last bomb, which didn't go off, may very well produce enough evidence to nail the person of people who did this...

Bottom line??? We all need to chill and let the smart people get the the evil ones...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Explosions at Boston Marathon
From: maeve
Date: 15 Apr 13 - 07:53 PM

Three friends were there- all are safe.

Subject: RE: BS: Explosions at Boston Marathon
From: katlaughing
Date: 15 Apr 13 - 08:11 PM

tami, so glad to hear your friends are okay.

((((bbc)))

no professional investigator will put much backing into speculation...i'll wait to see what they say when they've had time to really go through the evidence.
a
in the meantime, love and light to all, and strong hearts and steady hands to those who work on the injured.

kat

Subject: RE: BS: Explosions at Boston Marathon
From: Dead Horse
Date: 15 Apr 13 - 08:27 PM

Bombs planted by the terrorists in Northern Ireland were an almost daily occurence while I was there in the 70's, and many of them caused multiple indiscriminate deaths.
The terrorists concerned received a large amount of funding via NORAID and Boston was one of their foremost financial contributors.
Dont get me wrong - I deplore this latest outrage, but the irony does not escape me or many of my comrades from that troubled time.

Subject: RE: BS: Explosions at Boston Marathon
From: Greg F.
Date: 15 Apr 13 - 08:58 PM

Thanks Kevin - glad someone with reasoning ability and common sense is paying attention.

Subject: RE: BS: Explosions at Boston Marathon
From: Greg F.
Date: 15 Apr 13 - 09:00 PM

Which of course doesn't stop some Mudcatters, longtime Olympic champions in Leaping to Conclusions, from favoring us with their wisdom.

Nor, obviously, does it stop know-all clowns like yourself, oh Simple Seeker After Truth and Source Of All Knowledge and Wisdom.

Subject: RE: BS: Explosions at Boston Marathon
From: ChanteyLass
Date: 15 Apr 13 - 09:48 PM

Sending prayers to the victims and those who love them. Boston's a little more than an hour from where I live. I know people who have participated in the past, but I'm not sure if anyone I know was participating this year. When I got to the Y late this afternoon the class instructor said her husband was one of the runners but he was already on his way home.

Subject: RE: BS: Explosions at Boston Marathon
From: Greg F.
Date: 15 Apr 13 - 09:59 PM

You forgot "Oklahoma City: Terrorism", Rap.

Subject: RE: BS: Explosions at Boston Marathon
From: katlaughing
Date: 15 Apr 13 - 10:58 PM

maeve...good to hear about your friends,too.

A lot are using FB since the cellphones are off. That's ho we found out Roger's nephew and friend, who live there, are okay. it's going to be a long night there.

Subject: RE: BS: Explosions at Boston Marathon
From: olddude
Date: 15 Apr 13 - 11:07 PM

First thing I would be looking at is young man, probably exchange student or home grown disgruntled young man dollars to donuts a student. The device from what I see contained a high degree of alcohol in the mixture hence the color of the smoke. Peroxide perhaps but I don't think so ... Al Queda are far more experienced but can't rule out a newbee recruit. I suspect we have a home grown lone wolf or exchange student type as in the NYC attempt. Anyway, I leave it up to the pro-filers that know better.

Subject: RE: BS: Explosions at Boston Marathon
From: Songwronger
Date: 15 Apr 13 - 11:21 PM

A friend of mine went to Boston for this race. His first one. He wanted to wait until he turned 60 so he might have a chance as a newbie in that age group. Hope he's all right.

At any rate, from Massachusetts Governor Patrick's press conference:

Reporter: "Is this another false flag attack staged to take our civil liberties?"

Patrick: "No. Next question."

Thank God we've learned to question the government's role in these incidents first.

The Boston Globe reported a drill by the bomb squad today. "Officials: There will be a controlled explosion opposite the library within one minute as part of bomb squad activities." Here's a screen capture of the Globe's tweet activity. Big crowd in Boston, confusion, so why are the police running a bomb drill? In London they were running a bomb exercise during the 7/7 bombings, and on 9/11 they were running drills simulating hijacked planes flying into the towers. "Terrorist activity" during government drills is becoming a tired old M.O.

We'll never know the full truth about this bombing, of course, but at least we've learned to suspect the government FIRST in these situations.

Subject: RE: BS: Explosions at Boston Marathon
From: TIA
Date: 15 Apr 13 - 11:21 PM

Atlanta Georgia: terrorism (Olympic Park)
Killings of DAs and Corrections Officers: terrorism

Subject: RE: BS: Explosions at Boston Marathon
From: Rapparee
Date: 15 Apr 13 - 11:31 PM

Of course it was terrorism. And no, I did not forget it or the World Trade Center or the Pentagon or Flight 93 or the first WTC bombings or a whole lot of other things.

Anything that is intended to or does spread terror is terrorism.

Now I'll wait.

Subject: RE: BS: Explosions at Boston Marathon
From: olddude
Date: 16 Apr 13 - 12:26 AM

One thing for sure, it was NOT a pro .. at all ... home grown terrorist that cooked from the internet sites or a newbee radical recruit. I bet they nail the bastard in a month or less

Subject: RE: BS: Explosions at Boston Marathon
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 16 Apr 13 - 01:10 AM

Rap, you need a better dictionary or brain. Terrorism is the use of indiscriminate violence against non-combatants for political religious or military purposes.

A drive-by shooting is not for any such purposes and there is as yet no evidence that the Boston attack was for any such purposes.


I also note the incredible jaw-dropping stupidity of the idea that the whole thing might have been a government plot to assist it to pass repressive legislation.

Subject: RE: BS: Explosions at Boston Marathon
From: ragdall
Date: 16 Apr 13 - 02:14 AM

olddude,
My money is on your theory. I'm predicting it will be someone between the ages of 15 and 30, who grew up in the USA.
   
When there is already so much illness and misery in this world, why does some idiot believe s/he has the right/need to inflict more on strangers?

rags

Subject: RE: BS: Explosions at Boston Marathon
From: skarpi
Date: 16 Apr 13 - 02:36 AM

good morning ,I was watching this event from the beginning and this is terrible ..but when I was watching the CBS news after a moment , men in
a army clothes come in and start helping taken down the fence and also saw I men with a back bag in army clothes ..how come this people comes so quick ???

I was asked , who will America invade after this ?? ..now you know how some people in the world think about your Government ....??

I said I have no idea , but I start to think , am I save to travel
to Getaway this Autumn ...I wonder ..
I am going to think about it .

all the best Skarpi Iceland .

Subject: RE: BS: Explosions at Boston Marathon
From: Joybell
Date: 16 Apr 13 - 02:47 AM

We're watching this with horror too. True-love walked those streets, sang and played in the area in the 60s. Our thoughts are with all of you.
Joy

Subject: RE: BS: Explosions at Boston Marathon
From: flying cat
Date: 16 Apr 13 - 04:18 AM

to all my friends in Boston, I hope you are all well and not involved.   My thoughts are with those who are suffering with their injuries and everyone who has been affected by this horrific event.
My heart is heavy to think that there is so much hate in the world.

Moira

Subject: RE: BS: Explosions at Boston Marathon
From: ranger1
Date: 16 Apr 13 - 07:36 AM

Skarpi, don't worry too much about it. I think the people you saw were probably Boston PD's tactical team and maybe the National Guard. None of them come from too far away. Please don't let this stop you from coming to the Getaway.

As for my thoughts on the whole thing and terrorism in general, well, this article mirrors my thoughts exactly.

Subject: RE: BS: Explosions at Boston Marathon
From: beardedbruce
Date: 16 Apr 13 - 07:57 AM

"Reuters) - Two bombs packed with ball bearings tore through crowds near the finish of the Boston Marathon, killing three people and triggering a massive hunt for those behind an attack the White House said would be treated as "an act of terror".

Officials said more than 100 people were wounded by the devices, which were packed with gunpowder and shrapnel to maximize injuries, according a senior law enforcement official briefed on the investigation who declined to be named.

"I saw people who looked like they had their legs blown off. There was a lot of blood over their legs. Then people were being pushed in wheelchairs," said Joe Anderson, 33, a fisherman from Pembroke, Massachusetts, who had just run the race holding a large U.S. flag.

Some victims would require further surgery in the coming days, said Peter Fagenholz, a trauma surgeon at Massachusetts General Hospital.

"We're seeing a lot of shrapnel injuries" from small metal debris, Fagenholz told reporters outside the hospital. Doctors treated 29 people, of whom eight were in a critical condition.

An eight-year-old boy was among the dead, the Boston Globe reported, citing two law enforcement sources briefed on the investigation. A two-year-old was being treated at Boston Children's Hospital for a head wound, the hospital said.

White House officials and investigators said it was too early to say whether the Boston attacks were carried out by a foreign or homegrown group or to identify a motive.

The attack was the worst bombing on American soil since far-right militant and U.S. citizen Timothy McVeigh set off a massive truck bomb that destroyed the Federal Building in Oklahoma City in 1995, killing 168 people."




From another (AP) site:

"
Roupen Bastajian, a state trooper from Smithfield, R.I., had just finished the race when he heard the explosions.

"I started running toward the blast. And there were people all over the floor," he said. "We started grabbing tourniquets and started tying legs. A lot of people amputated. ... At least 25 to 30 people have at least one leg missing, or an ankle missing, or two legs missing."

At Massachusetts General Hospital, Alasdair Conn, chief of emergency services, said: "This is something I've never seen in my 25 years here ... this amount of carnage in the civilian population. This is what we expect from war."

As many as two unexploded bombs were found near the end of the 26.2-mile course as part of what appeared to be a well-coordinated attack, but they were safely disarmed, according to a senior U.S. intelligence official, who also spoke on condition of anonymity because of the continuing investigation."

Subject: RE: BS: Explosions at Boston Marathon
From: Greg F.
Date: 16 Apr 13 - 08:36 AM

"...the incredible jaw-dropping stupidity of the idea that the whole thing might have been a government plot to assist it to pass repressive legislation "

Get used to it, Richard - there are thousands (millions?) of such anti-government idiots in the US of A and the number is growing daily. Gooble the "Oath Keepers" or take a walk thru the Southern Poverty Law Center site at www.splcenter.org

Its pretty likely that spokesmorons from the National Rifle Assassinatiion will shortly be suggesting the same thing.

Subject: RE: BS: Explosions at Boston Marathon
From: Wesley S
Date: 16 Apr 13 - 08:50 AM

I was wondering if Fox News had blamed Obama yet. They will soon enough. But now the fringe Mudcatters have blamed "The Gummit" already.

Subject: RE: BS: Explosions at Boston Marathon
From: bobad
Date: 16 Apr 13 - 08:55 AM

"fringe"

You are being much too charitable.

Subject: RE: BS: Explosions at Boston Marathon
From: bobad
Date: 16 Apr 13 - 08:58 AM

Here's another one, just like the other one: Westboro to picket Boston funerals, blames 'fag marriage' for bombings

Subject: RE: BS: Explosions at Boston Marathon
From: Rapparee
Date: 16 Apr 13 - 09:03 AM

Richard, if you think that a drive-by shooting isn't done to instill terror in others your definition of terror is too narrow.

Subject: RE: BS: Explosions at Boston Marathon
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 16 Apr 13 - 09:19 AM

>>From: Rapparee - PM
Date: 16 Apr 13 - 09:03 AM

Richard, if you think that a drive-by shooting isn't done to instill terror in others your definition of terror is too narrow.<<

From what I have read terror is all most never the primary purpose.

Not all murder is terrorism. Sometimes people kill people because they want them dead.

Subject: RE: BS: Explosions at Boston Marathon
From: GUEST,TIA
Date: 16 Apr 13 - 09:26 AM

But often, they also want others to *see* someone get dead as well.
Very grey area.
Lots of room to call many things terrorism.

Subject: RE: BS: Explosions at Boston Marathon
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 16 Apr 13 - 09:37 AM

Lots of reason not to lump so many things into one word.

Subject: RE: BS: Explosions at Boston Marathon
From: beardedbruce
Date: 16 Apr 13 - 09:39 AM

As of Tuesday morning, no persons or group had claimed credit for twin explosions at the finish line near Boston's Copley Square. The Pakistani Taliban, a group that has threatened the United States in the past, denied participation, according to the Associated Press.
Law enforcement officials questioned an injured Saudi national at a local hospital, but news stories indicated that the individual appears to have no connection to the case. The Boston Globe reported that he was simply a frightened spectator who had tried to flee but was tackled and restrained by bystanders.
On Monday night agents from the FBI, the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms, and Explosives (ATF), and other law enforcement agencies raided a unit in a high-rise apartment on Ocean Drive in the seaside Boston suburb of Revere, according to information posted online by a participating local fire department. Several bags, including what appeared to be a large duffel bag, were removed from the scene. Authorities were mum as to the specifics of their suspicions but confirmed that the Revere search was related to the case.
Rep. William Keating (D) of Massachusetts, a member of the House Homeland Security Committee, told a local CBS reporter that the two bombs at the finish line, which exploded seconds apart, had been stashed in trash receptacles and were clearly a "coordinated attack." Authorities have discovered two other unexploded devices, he told Boston's WBZ News.
Other reports said no unexploded devices had been found. A reported fire at Boston's John F. Kennedy Presidential Library turned out to be the result of an electrical problem and was unrelated to the marathon bombs, according to Boston police.
NBC News reported that the explosive devices near the finish line had been packed with ball bearings to enhance their lethality. Doctors treating some of the 126 wounded at local hospitals said many had been hurt by metal shrapnel, though they added it was unclear whether the metal in question had simply been part of the environment or was the result of a shredded trash receptacle.
Police have issued an alert for a rental van that may have tried to gain access to the finish line area and for a man in dark clothing and a hood seen leaving the scene shortly before the blast, reported NBC. Surveillance video shows a hooded figure carrying two backpacks at about that time.
Among the dead is 8-year-old Martin Richard, whose father was running in the race. The boy's mother and sister were also gravely injured, according to a Boston Globe report. The family had gathered at the finish line for cheers and celebrations.
...
One thing is clear: The bomber or bombers were not highly skilled. The explosive devices were relatively crude compared with those produced overseas by Al Qaeda or other radical Islamist terrorist groups, RAND Corp. terror expert Brian Jenkins told Los Angeles television. They were much smaller than the powerful truck bomb that Timothy McVeigh used to devastate the federal building in Oklahoma City in April 1995.
In that sense they were analogous to the pipe bombs that killed two and injured 100 in 1996 at Atlanta's Centennial Park during the Olympics.
The fact that the target was an event of great significance to Boston but not particularly significant to the wider world could indicate that the bomber was a local or at least a native of the United States. The explosions occurred on April 15, tax day, which could be a further indication of a domestic connection.
But the bombs were not directed against a government building or institution, which is often a hallmark of disaffected, lone-wolf domestic terrorists, noted some terrorism analysts. And the style of the attack, in which one explosion was closely followed by another, mimics that used by numerous groups in the Middle East.
One government official told the Los Angeles Times that his guess would be "self-radicalized Islamic extremists from the area."

Subject: RE: BS: Explosions at Boston Marathon
From: Wesley S
Date: 16 Apr 13 - 10:06 AM

Bruce - how about giving credit to the author of that article while you're at it??

Subject: RE: BS: Explosions at Boston Marathon
From: beardedbruce
Date: 16 Apr 13 - 10:36 AM

http://refreshingnews99.blogspot.in/2013/04/boston-marathon-bombing-feds-raid.html

Subject: RE: BS: Explosions at Boston Marathon
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 16 Apr 13 - 11:55 AM

"And the style of the attack, in which one explosion was closely followed by another, mimics that used by numerous groups in the Middle East."

I wouldn't read much into that. It's fairly standard practice - for example the IRA used to do it that way as well.

Subject: RE: BS: Explosions at Boston Marathon
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 16 Apr 13 - 12:21 PM

Appalled and terribly saddened after watching the BBC News today. How can killing, maiming and ruining the lives of innocent civilians (many of them young children) ever be seen as a good thing to do, no matter what the beliefs or political stance of the perpetrator/s? Such wickedness and evil. Those seriously maimed will have months or years of painful and exhausting rehabilitation ahead of them. Those bereaved will never fully heal their lives. Thoughts and prayers for all concerned.

Subject: RE: BS: Explosions at Boston Marathon
From: beardedbruce
Date: 16 Apr 13 - 12:26 PM

McGrath-

Agreed. I think it is still too early to tell, with too little known even of what evidence has been found. I would hope they are not releasing ALL the information to the press right now.


Eliza-

"How can killing, maiming and ruining the lives of innocent civilians (many of them young children) ever be seen as a good thing to do, no matter what the beliefs or political stance of the perpetrator/s? "

THAT is what terrorism is- to attack those who are innocent.

Subject: RE: BS: Explosions at Boston Marathon
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 16 Apr 13 - 12:30 PM

Have been thinking further about this. Am trying to imagine a person or persons crouched over the devices, chuckling as they fill them with metal debris, nails and steel bearings, perhaps commenting on how 'effective' this will be to cause maximum injury. Then chuckling some more as they decide where to place the bombs, after serious discussion about who will detonate them and how. Afterwards, more glee as the reports come in of the sickening sights and trauma. Now, what in the world makes people so intrinsically wicked that such acts are considered a success and generate a certain pride in the appalling results? I remember seeing on TV an muslim woman in Kabul handing round sweets just after 9/11, and ululating with joy. Totally incomprehensible. God help us all.

Subject: RE: BS: Explosions at Boston Marathon
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 16 Apr 13 - 12:33 PM

Al Q. would have claimed it by now.

Subject: RE: BS: Explosions at Boston Marathon
From: beardedbruce
Date: 16 Apr 13 - 12:41 PM

Praise, but no claim.



"Jordan extremist praises Boston bombing
By JAMAL HALABY | Associated Press – 17 hrs ago

AMMAN, Jordan (AP) — The head of an extremist Jordanian Muslim Salafi group said early Tuesday that he was "happy to see the horror in America" after the explosions in Boston.
"American blood isn't more precious than Muslim blood," said Mohammad al-Chalabi, who was convicted in an al-Qaida-linked plot to attack U.S. and other Western diplomatic missions in Jordan in 2003.
"Let the Americans feel the pain we endured by their armies occupying Iraq and Afghanistan and killing our people there," he said early Tuesday.
Al-Chalabi served seven years in prison for his part in the foiled attack. His group is outlawed in Jordan.
A Mideast counterterrorism official based in Jordan said the blasts "carry the hallmark of an organized terrorist group, like al-Qaida." He did not give actual evidence linking al-Qaida to the bombing.
"From the little information available, one can say it was a well-coordinated, well-targeted and near-simultaneous attack," he said. "Luckily, the amount of explosives used is small, judging from the casualty figure and explosion area."
A Jordanian security official said security was beefed up around the U.S. Embassy in Amman after the bombing in Boston.
"As the unfortunate news unfolded, we immediately stationed more police patrols around the embassy," he said. He declined to disclose any details, citing the sensitive nature of the information.
Both officials insisted on anonymity, as they were not authorized to brief reporters on security matters."

Subject: RE: BS: Explosions at Boston Marathon
From: GUEST,Lavengro
Date: 16 Apr 13 - 01:02 PM

TIA made the comment about the link to photos posted by BB being ghastly and you would be hard pushed to disagree.

But you know what? I personally think that we could do with more honesty like that in our media. Why? Because that is the reality of violence against our fellow human beings and I think (obviously not on breakfast TV with young eyes present)that the innocent victims of such violence deserve to have that fully understood. We don't get that by well groomed newsreaders presenting a piece to camera telling us that the injuries were "horrific".

Too many see the results of exposions on TV shows and seem to not be able to transition that to reality and think that well arranged corpses and a hero with ringing in his ears is the result.

Seeing the honest results of violence increases support for actions against it and in preventing it and lessens the appetite for it from the political apologists (of all persuasions) standing in the wings with a half baked justification.

I speak as someone who has served and seen the results. Totally different to attacking civilians I know, but I wanted to give context to some of my comment.

Subject: RE: BS: Explosions at Boston Marathon
From: beardedbruce
Date: 16 Apr 13 - 01:07 PM

Thank you, Lavengro. For your comments and your service.

Subject: RE: BS: Explosions at Boston Marathon
From: beardedbruce
Date: 16 Apr 13 - 01:12 PM

"WASHINGTON (AP) -- The explosives used in the deadly Boston Marathon bombing were contained in 6-liter pressure cookers and hidden in black duffel bags on the ground, a person briefed on the investigation told The Associated Press on Tuesday.

One of the explosives contained shards of metal and ball bearings, and another contained nails, the person said.

A second person briefed on the investigation confirmed that at least one of the explosives was made out of a pressure cooker. Both spoke on condition of anonymity to discuss an ongoing investigation.

Two bombs blew up seconds apart Monday at the finish line of one of the world's most storied races, tearing off victims' limbs and leaving the streets spattered with blood and strewn with broken glass. Three people were killed, including an 8-year-old boy, and more than 170 were wounded.

President Barack Obama said called the explosions a terrorist attack and said law enforcement and intelligence officials were trying to determine who was responsible. No one has claimed responsibility for the bombings.

These types of pressure cooker explosives have been used in Afghanistan, India, Nepal and Pakistan, according to a July 2010 joint FBI and Homeland Security intelligence report. One of the three devices used in the May 2010 Times Square attempted bombing was a pressure cooker, the intelligence report said.

"Placed carefully, such devices provide little or no indication of an impending attack," the report said.

The Pakistani Taliban, which claimed responsibility for the 2010 attempt in Times Square, has denied any role in the Boston Marathon attack.

Law enforcement has not yet determined what was used to set off the explosives. Typically, these bombs have an initiator, switch and explosive charge, according to a 2004 warning from the Homeland Security Department about these types of explosives.

"We will go to the ends of the Earth to identify the subject or subjects who are responsible for this despicable crime, and we will do everything we can to bring them to justice," said Richard DesLauriers, FBI agent in charge in Boston.

Investigators in Boston are combing surveillance tapes and pictures from Monday."

Subject: RE: BS: Explosions at Boston Marathon
From: Pete Jennings
Date: 16 Apr 13 - 01:42 PM

Let's hope they get them.

Subject: RE: BS: Explosions at Boston Marathon
From: GUEST,TIA
Date: 16 Apr 13 - 01:44 PM

Yes, Lavrengo the people of the USA (and many other 1st world countries) should definitely (and literally) see what goes on here and elsewhere. In Afghanistan, there are on average three child casualties of landmines or UXO per day (UN statistics) in a population of about 3 million. In the USA with population 300 million, that would equate to 300 child casualties per day, and the Kardashians would be driven from the news.
Boston is ghastly.
So is what goes on elsewhere with even greater frequency.
Zero comfort to the victims and families in Boston.
What a world.

Subject: RE: BS: Explosions at Boston Marathon
From: beardedbruce
Date: 16 Apr 13 - 01:59 PM

"The Taliban said they didn't carry out the bombing, but they supported it. The Somali Islamist insurgent group Al-Shabab mocked the dead and wounded on its English-language Twitter feed."


http://news.yahoo.com/boston-marathon-bombing-reactions-around-world-104500376.html

Subject: RE: BS: Explosions at Boston Marathon
From: Mrrzy
Date: 16 Apr 13 - 02:28 PM

I am selfishly proud of myself for not having a big PTSD-type reaction this time, although I'd hate to think I was getting used to this... and I am guessing home-grown terrorists this time, not imported, but only because the Bostom Marathon is a local event, rather than a national one.

With the track record of the Fibbies on these I also think they may catch the actual individuals. I was very impressed after Oklahoma City and the first World Trade Center bombing.

Subject: RE: BS: Explosions at Boston Marathon
From: beardedbruce
Date: 16 Apr 13 - 02:32 PM

No certainty it was homegrown- This was Israel's Independence Day.

"JERUSALEM — Israelis celebrated 65 years of independence on Tuesday, with over a million people pouring into national parks "

Subject: RE: BS: Explosions at Boston Marathon
From: beardedbruce
Date: 16 Apr 13 - 02:37 PM

(Today- the 16th.) Was it after sundown in Mecca or Jerusalum when the explosions went off?

Subject: RE: BS: Explosions at Boston Marathon
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 16 Apr 13 - 02:45 PM

Hmmm. Interesting, yesterday was Israeli Independence Day and Irish-American Boston is bombed. A connection? Probably a stretch there I think.

You may be right, Mrrzy, but so far the only person detained as "a person of interest" is a Saudi national, according to CBS News, among other sources.

Subject: RE: BS: Explosions at Boston Marathon
From: GUEST,TIA
Date: 16 Apr 13 - 02:46 PM

If for Israeli Independence, why Boston?
Not an antagonistic question at all, just pondering...

I think amateurishness, Boston location, Patriot's Day, Tax Day, etc. all point to homegrown. Just my opinion, and a totally uninformed one at that.

Subject: RE: BS: Explosions at Boston Marathon
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 16 Apr 13 - 02:51 PM

Pedants unite!

Terrorism is the use of indiscriminate violence towards non-combatants for military, religious, or political purposes. Repeat, for the slow of understanding. For military, religious, or political purposes.

We do not yet know the purposes if any of the Boston murderer(s) so we do knot know whether they are terrorists. Simply killing lots of people is not terrorism, unless there is a relevant purpose and indeed killing lots of combatants is not terrorism - for example the sinking of the Belgrano was not terrorism, whether or not it complied with the laws of military engagement. This point, purely philologically speaking, puts a question mark over the Twin Towers, for those there attacked were combatants in the economic and cultural colonialisation of Islamic peoples. I still don't approve of the Twin Towers attack, but it would be nice to avoid linguisitic creep.

Subject: RE: BS: Explosions at Boston Marathon
From: bobad
Date: 16 Apr 13 - 03:01 PM

"amateurishness"

Not sure how amateur it was as the methodology of the bomb construction is, according to a previous post of Bruce's, of a type that has been employed in several occasions and locales and appears to be straight out of somebody's terrorist playbook.

Subject: RE: BS: Explosions at Boston Marathon
From: Bert
Date: 16 Apr 13 - 03:30 PM

Pedants unite! as Richard says.

Two of the media reports above mention ball bearings, when what they really mean is bearing balls. It's hard to trust a report that can't get a simple thing like that correct.

Subject: RE: BS: Explosions at Boston Marathon
From: meself
Date: 16 Apr 13 - 03:30 PM

Richard, I support your point about use and meaning of the word 'terrorism' - however, you are doing with the word 'combatant' exactly the same thing that you wish others to stop doing with the word 'terrorism', i.e., stretching it beyond its original and generally understood meaning in a way that, if pursued, would end up with the word meaning anything, everything, and - nothing. So, yes, j'accuse you of linguistic creep!

Subject: RE: BS: Explosions at Boston Marathon
From: Greg F.
Date: 16 Apr 13 - 03:30 PM

Oh, PLEASE Beardie- everything ISN'T about Israel. Or about you, for that matter.

Subject: RE: BS: Explosions at Boston Marathon
From: beardedbruce
Date: 16 Apr 13 - 03:34 PM

F--K off, greggie.

There are no "Black Democrats" here for you to call "Dumb Ni**ers", so you can crawl back under your rock.

Subject: RE: BS: Explosions at Boston Marathon
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 16 Apr 13 - 03:49 PM

If it was a jihadist, Israel's day will be more significant to him than Patriots' Day.
We will see Greg.

Subject: RE: BS: Explosions at Boston Marathon (Covering th
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 16 Apr 13 - 04:36 PM

If I were trying to parse this out based on what little information we have, but with some little knowledge of terrorist history, I would rank the likelihood of who perpetrated the act thusly:

A. Some Islamist terrorist (single or group, perhaps even home-grown) wanting to strike at he U.S., and the marathon presented a broad target, hard to fully protect.
B. A non-Islamist person or group with a specific gripe against government(s) or perceived powerful groups with which (t)he(y) disagree, and has chosen the site as above.
C. Someone from group A who relishes sticking it both to the U.S. And Israel, and took advantage the chronological confluence of the marathon and Israeli independence day.
D. A newly hired ER doctor, looking for a lot of quick experience. This sounds far fetched, but a local fireman, a few years ago, turned arsonist so he could become a hero smoke eater.
E. Somebody with no affiliation wanting to murder a relative, spouse or someone with whom they hold a real hate for, with an opportunity to make it look like one of the groups above was involved. "Law and Order" come to life.

I'm sure GregF. and Keith and others can add more categories. Heck, we can even start a pool to see who's right!

----

My real suggestion would be for us to grieve for the victims, belay the mindless speculation. Let the investigators do their job until they find answers, and can bring culprits to justice.

Subject: RE: BS: Explosions at Boston Marathon
From: GUEST,TIA
Date: 16 Apr 13 - 04:40 PM

Amateur in the sense that it is being reportedly that no HE was involved. The really good bomb makers can get their hands on that pretty easily.

When your legs or your child are blown off by a bomb, I do not suppose you care what the explosive was.

But these considerations will undoubtedly help the FBI to find the perpetrator(s).

Subject: RE: BS: Explosions at Boston Marathon
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 16 Apr 13 - 04:47 PM

If you're trying to make somethingout of anniversaries, the fact that this week is the 20th anniversary of the Waco massacre, on April 19th (and 18th of Oklahoma) seems plausible enough.

But there really is no point speculating at this time.

Subject: RE: BS: Explosions at Boston Marathon
From: skarpi
Date: 16 Apr 13 - 05:14 PM

Runners saw bomb sniffing dogs ...before the run ...what , did they knew about the bombs ? and did nothing ? what is going on there ...

http://www.dv.is/frettir/2013/4/16/fannst-skrytid-ad-sja-sprengjuleitarhunda-fyrir-hlaupid-i-boston/

the letter s are in Icelandic but the video is from us ...

all the best Skarpi Iceland .

Subject: RE: BS: Explosions at Boston Marathon
From: Joe Offer
Date: 16 Apr 13 - 05:44 PM

I'm an associate member of the Sisters of Mercy, so I'm on their e-mail lists. Here's the response to the bombings on their Connect With Mercy blog:

When evil intrudes again and again in our lives, we are tempted to accept it as normal; to say," This is life as we must live it now. This is our reality." We are tempted to become reactionary, to align our choices to the presence of evil, to be defined and paralyzed by its shadowy, cowardly potential.

In all acts like the Boston Marathon bombings, the evil-doer plots not only to injure, but to capture the wills of innumerable people and crush them into his own small hatred. Evil would like nothing more than to rob us of our light – our hope, our trust and our freedom. It would like nothing more than for us to exist in a world – as it does – defined by death rather than by life.

Whether evil comes to us in events like yesterday's bombings, or in the everyday meanesses of some small, hate-filled individual, it will come. In our advanced technological age, it can take huge proportions. But whether small or large in its appearance, evil is equally debilitating when we allow it to control us – for that is its greatest desire: to rob us of ourselves.

So let this be our prayer for the people whose lives were affected by yesterday's evil acts: may they have the courage and support to again choose life, hope, freedom and trust. May they never be defined by yesterday's experience, but may they become their strongest selves despite it. And for those who lost their lives in this senseless act, may their memory encourage us always to choose life. For nothing could be worse than to live – as the perpetrator does – defined by death.

By everything we do today, and every day, let us consciously stand for love, mercy and life. It can be our way of offering healing to our injured world.

Subject: RE: BS: Explosions at Boston Marathon
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 16 Apr 13 - 06:07 PM

"the Waco massacre"

You mean when 4 public servants were gunned down by a bunch of gun hoarding loonies or do you mean when those loonies incinerated themselves and their families?

Subject: RE: BS: Explosions at Boston Marathon
From: Songwronger
Date: 16 Apr 13 - 06:24 PM

Runners saw bomb sniffing dogs ...before the run ...what , did they knew about the bombs ? and did nothing ? what is going on there ...

Our government bombs us occasionally in order to keep us in a state of fear. To be fair to the Boston police, they were told there was a bombing drill going on. They seem to have thought the event was staged until they saw the carnage. This operation appears to have been carried out by a larger agency.

If the FBI is doing its job, they're rounding up known bombers right now, people like Bill Ayers. Mr. Ayers should be made to give an accounting of his wherabouts yesterday, as should all of his known friends and associates.

Subject: RE: BS: Explosions at Boston Marathon
From: Greg F.
Date: 16 Apr 13 - 06:29 PM

F--K off, greggie. you can crawl back under your rock.

Polite, as usual. Hey Beardie, you kiss yer mudder wit dat mouth?

Subject: RE: BS: Explosions at Boston Marathon
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 16 Apr 13 - 06:50 PM

Twenty six children were killed at Waco. I don't know a better word than massacre to refer to something like that.

Subject: RE: BS: Explosions at Boston Marathon
From: Don Firth
Date: 16 Apr 13 - 07:03 PM

I KNEW it wouldn't take long for Songwronger to try to blame the Boston Marathon bombings on Obama!

Pathetic!!!

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Explosions at Boston Marathon
From: skarpi
Date: 16 Apr 13 - 07:06 PM

first bombing in Boston yesterday today this ...

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4368598,00.html

is US and Isreal going into Iran ?

Subject: RE: BS: Explosions at Boston Marathon
From: GUEST,TIA
Date: 16 Apr 13 - 07:12 PM

The conspiracy nuttiness started within minutes. Songwronger is jumping on the bandwagon way late. But you knew it would happen.
And it is disgusting.

Subject: RE: BS: Explosions at Boston Marathon
From: jacqui.c
Date: 16 Apr 13 - 07:45 PM

Why do so many people on this thread have to start fighting - it really does get to be distressing. After what has happened are we REALLY going to get uptight about the definition of words. Why is it so much more important to start bringing out pet theories as to the nature of government than to commiserate with those who have been injured or lost loved ones. Are your egos really that important? Some of you disgust me.

In all of this I am trying to concentrate on the goodness of so many people after this event. The guys who ran toward the danger, rather than away from it, helping those injured and maybe dying. The guy who brought out the remains of his pre-race party food to feed those in need. The people who opened up their homes to stranded runners, feeding them and offering beds to those who could not return to their hotels. There is so much more good out there than the few evil people who cause so much misery. Shame this thread does not follow the same pattern.

Subject: RE: BS: Explosions at Boston Marathon
From: Greg F.
Date: 16 Apr 13 - 08:00 PM

Twenty six children were killed at Waco. I don't know a better word than massacre to refer to something like that.

I have better words, Kevin: mass suicide, which is what it was.

Subject: RE: BS: Explosions at Boston Marathon
From: michaelr
Date: 16 Apr 13 - 08:43 PM

A Facebook friend shared a photo of eight year old Martin Richard who was killed in Boston yesterday. He was holding a sign he had drawn which read "No more hurting people. PEACE."

It made me cry.

Subject: RE: BS: Explosions at Boston Marathon
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 16 Apr 13 - 08:43 PM

Babes in arms commit suicide? Interesting.

The word "massacre" means innocent people were slaughtered. It doesn't say anything about who slaughtered them.
..............

I note that Iran has strongly condemned the bombing. As of course it did back at the time of 911.

Subject: RE: BS: Explosions at Boston Marathon
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 17 Apr 13 - 01:29 AM

What jacquic said, very eloquently.

Subject: RE: BS: Explosions at Boston Marathon
From: skarpi
Date: 17 Apr 13 - 02:33 AM

this was in my post last night ..

http://earthfirstnews.wordpress.com/2013/04/15/the-boston-marathon-and-u-s-drone-attacks-a-tale-of-two-terrorisms/

the world is a sad place to be in this is just some thing witch is
hard to under stand ..on both ways this is ugly and should be stopped

ugly world ....

Subject: RE: BS: Explosions at Boston Marathon
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 17 Apr 13 - 04:31 AM

Very well said jacqui.c. I also appreciated very much Joe Offer's words from the Sisters of Mercy. I'm worried now about Margaret Thatcher's funeral this morning and the London Marathon on Sunday. It seems that any public gathering could be a target for escalating terrorism.

Subject: RE: BS: Explosions at Boston Marathon
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 17 Apr 13 - 05:44 AM

There's no real evidence for there being "escalating terrorism". Terrorism fluctuates, and it's nothing new. There are fewer bombs exploding in the UK these days than a few years ago, at the height of the IRA campaign, for example.

Subject: RE: BS: Explosions at Boston Marathon
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 17 Apr 13 - 07:01 AM

As I said. We do not yet know that the Boston bomber is a terrorist. We do know that the Irish bombers of London were.

Subject: RE: BS: Explosions at Boston Marathon
From: Greg F.
Date: 17 Apr 13 - 07:13 AM

Look up "Jonestown", Kevin.

Subject: RE: BS: Explosions at Boston Marathon
From: akenaton
Date: 17 Apr 13 - 08:37 AM

A couple of months ago, a Pakistani family were obliterated by a drone strike....this was said to be the result of "bad intelligence"
There were six children in the house which was struck, plus other family members.
There was very little comment on Mudcat.



As long as The US govt authorises these terrorist strikes, It can expect retaliation from terrorists on the opposite side, just as we in the UK experienced the London Underground bombings, due to our involvement in Iraq.

I dont know if Islamic terrorists were responsible here, but it does seem rather likely. I hope it is not the precursor to an extended bombing campaign, if so pressure should be brought on Mr Obama to stop engaging in drone warfare......all advances in military technology have always a nasty aftertaste.

Subject: RE: BS: Explosions at Boston Marathon
From: Den
Date: 17 Apr 13 - 09:35 AM

I'm willing to go out on a limb here and say that the Irish had nothing to do with the bombs in Boston. We have the closest thing to peace in our country than we have had in the last 50-60 years. Apparently some contributors to Mudcat don't like that.

Subject: RE: BS: Explosions at Boston Marathon
From: Rapparee
Date: 17 Apr 13 - 09:36 AM

So stay indoors and never leave your house again.

Dammit, Jacqui's right. Worrying and jumping to conclusions without sufficient data wastes your energy and makes you look stupid. Do something to help instead. You can at least give blood or money.

Subject: RE: BS: Explosions at Boston Marathon
From: jacqui.c
Date: 17 Apr 13 - 11:04 AM

I can't give blood - as a Brit they won't take me - something to do with Jacob Creutzfeldt disease. I am also a cancer survivor, which puts me totally outside the loop. I will be checking on a way to donate.

Subject: RE: BS: Explosions at Boston Marathon
From: jacqui.c
Date: 17 Apr 13 - 12:43 PM

I just got an email from our congresswoman, Chellie Pingree giving a donation web address - I am aware that there are scams out there but this one is the official one from the governor of Massachusetts so have donated there.


Massachusetts Governor Deval Patrick and Boston Mayor Tom Menino have formed The One Fund Boston to help the families most affected by the attack.

If you'd like to donate, you can do so here:

http://onefundboston.org/

Subject: RE: BS: Explosions at Boston Marathon
From: Wesley S
Date: 17 Apr 13 - 02:38 PM

What I think is both silly and sad about these situations is how the local media here {Atlanta} covers the story. They are so desperate to make a connection with it.

"Coming up next - our exclusive interview with a local man who ran the Boston Marathon - finished early - and didn't see a thing". "And then we'll talk with a woman who's daughter never finished and she's safe too".

I imagine it's that way all over.

Subject: RE: BS: Explosions at Boston Marathon
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 17 Apr 13 - 02:56 PM

Yes, Greg, the Jonestown Massacre had certain parallels with Waco, as well as considerable differences.
.............
The fact that there was no element of "martyr" to this episode, and so far no claim of responsibility, argue against this being an Islamist operation.

Subject: RE: BS: Explosions at Boston Marathon
From: Songwronger
Date: 17 Apr 13 - 07:12 PM

I didn't blame the bombing on Obama, Mr. Firth. But since you brought it up, he is a known associate of the bomber Bill Ayers. Does anyone know where Mr. Obama was when the marathon bombs went off? There were reports of a "dark-skinned man" acting suspiciously before the crime. Perhaps that was Mr. Obama. He and Mr. Ayers should definitely be brought in for a waterboarding session. Come to think of it, Mr. Obama has been killing children with bombs lately in other countries, so who knows. The FBI should look at him really hard. I think you're onto something, Mr. Firth. Good call.

Subject: RE: BS: Explosions at Boston Marathon
From: kendall
Date: 17 Apr 13 - 07:45 PM

There is no such thing as a senseless attack. It made sense to the creeps who did it.

Subject: RE: BS: Explosions at Boston Marathon
From: Songwronger
Date: 17 Apr 13 - 08:05 PM

http://sphotos-b.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-prn1/p480x480/15155_479089912163926_1654583610_n.jpg

A collage of photos. Navy Seals at the marathon, with black backpacks, etc. There are dozens and dozens of individual surveillance camera photos online, but someone did this collage.

It appears that the Boston police were told there would be a bomb drill. Then the military moved in and made it happen. The devices were crudely fashioned in order to make it look like a knuckledragger did it. For the past two days the government-controlled media has been linking Middle Eastern terrorists to "right-wing extremists." At least on 9/11 they made some attempt to obfuscate. This is insulting.

Subject: RE: BS: Explosions at Boston Marathon
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 18 Apr 13 - 01:13 AM

>>From: kendall - PM
Date: 17 Apr 13 - 07:45 PM

There is no such thing as a senseless attack. It made sense to the creeps who did it. <<

I guess you are right Kendell but does what makes sense to them make sense?

For instance, killing 13 people in a movie theater because you think you are the Joker?

Subject: RE: BS: Explosions at Boston Marathon
From: Don Firth
Date: 18 Apr 13 - 01:13 AM

Songwronger, give my congratulations to David Horowitz next time you see him, for the astounding number of Right-Wing, anti-Liberal, anti-Obama web sites that he's managed to flood the internet with.

He certainly is a busy fellow.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Explosions at Boston Marathon
From: Don Firth
Date: 18 Apr 13 - 01:48 AM

F. Michael Maloof, formerly with the Pentagon's Technology Security Operations, writes:

WASHINGTON – The Boston Marathon bombing that killed three people and wounded more than 180 was on the same day as the 101st anniversary of the birthday of North Korean founder Kim Il Sung, raising questions among analysts whether Pyongyang, as in some of its past terrorism, used proxies to carry out the attack in the U.S.

North Korea in recent weeks has been threatening the U.S. with attacks, including a pre-emptive nuclear strike. Pyongyang also has a history of committing terrorist attacks without taking credit for them.

I'm not saying that's it, but until more definite information is in, it's a line of inquiry.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Explosions at Boston Marathon
From: beardedbruce
Date: 18 Apr 13 - 07:59 AM

Good point, Don.


We don't know until we know.

Subject: RE: BS: Explosions at Boston Marathon
From: Rapparee
Date: 18 Apr 13 - 09:41 AM

I thought of that when it happened. That doesn't make it so. It could also have been someone who doesn't think that people should have their legs bare in public. Or just a plain old-fashioned nut case.

We don't know yet.

Yes, the DPRK has quite a history of terror attacks and not always in their own backyard.

Subject: RE: BS: Explosions at Boston Marathon
From: Wesley S
Date: 18 Apr 13 - 02:59 PM

"Navy Seals at the marathon, with black backpacks, etc."

"Then the military moved in and made it happen."

Tell you what Songwronger - Get off the computer - grow a pair - and walk up to a Navy Seal and tell him you think some of his brothers planted those bombs and then let me know what his response was.

Subject: RE: BS: Explosions at Boston Marathon
From: Don Firth
Date: 18 Apr 13 - 04:05 PM

Obama couldn't possibly have been involved in the Boston Marathon explosions.

He was in Texas, setting charges at the fertilizer plant.

I just thought the Tinfoil Hat Brigade would like to know.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Explosions at Boston Marathon
From: bobad
Date: 18 Apr 13 - 05:31 PM

Photos and videos of suspects released: FBI

Subject: RE: BS: Explosions at Boston Marathon
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 18 Apr 13 - 05:41 PM

Photo here: Salon said the FBI site has crashed.

Subject: RE: BS: Explosions at Boston Marathon
From: pdq
Date: 18 Apr 13 - 06:04 PM

Here is one of the best pictures I can find...

                                                                                                               both suspects

Subject: RE: BS: Explosions at Boston Marathon
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 19 Apr 13 - 02:48 AM

Massive police operation in Boston area by: Staff writer
From: news.com.au
April 19, 2013 4:40PM
Police officer shot dead at Boston university, MIT
Suspects involved in carjacking, grenades thrown
Major operation underway after police car chase

Subject: RE: BS: Explosions at Boston Marathon
From: Ebbie
Date: 19 Apr 13 - 03:22 AM

Of course, it is not sure yet that the two men they are pursuing are the ones who committed this deed- but it appears quite likely.

The part that I'm agog over is the speed with which things are progressing.

Subject: RE: BS: Explosions at Boston Marathon
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 19 Apr 13 - 05:01 AM

Black cap dead, whit cap on run.

Subject: RE: BS: Explosions at Boston Marathon
From: Jim Martin
Date: 19 Apr 13 - 06:47 AM

Almost total lockdown in Boston!

Subject: RE: BS: Explosions at Boston Marathon
From: GUEST,Lavengro
Date: 19 Apr 13 - 07:28 AM

Obviously the remaining killer and whatever support network he has need to be brought into custody as soon as possible. Equally obviously doing that without further loss of life is the ideal to strive for. However, does anyone else think shutting down the entire transportation network and asking people not to leave their homes or go to work is an over reaction?

It seems to me that it is an additional victory to bring one of the USA's most iconic cities and tourist hotspots to a standstill for....... how long?

Let's hope this resolves as soon as is humanly possible for all concerned.

Subject: RE: BS: Explosions at Boston Marathon
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 19 Apr 13 - 07:32 AM

Brothers from Chechnya.

Subject: RE: BS: Explosions at Boston Marathon
From: bobad
Date: 19 Apr 13 - 07:34 AM

AP sources identify the surviving Boston bomber as Dzhokhar Tsarnaev, 19. The man is said to be from Russia's south, not far from the Chechen Republic.

The man reportedly lived in Turkey before arriving legally in the US about a year ago.

The name is listed among the recipients of Cambridge scholarships in 2011.

The second suspect is said to be his brother.

An NBC report claims the two immigrated at least two years ago. One of the brothers is said to have a Massachusetts drivers' license.

There is a page at the Russian social network VKontakte (In Contact) with the name Dzhokhar Tsarnaev living in Boston and studying at Cambridge Rindge & Latin School.

The page mentions a school in Makhachkala, the capital of the Republic of Dagestan, as a place Tsarnaev studied between 1999 and 2001.

The Tsarnaev family moved to Dagestan from Kyrgyzstan in 2001, the school spokesman told RT. He Dzhokhar studied there for just one year and produced no particular impression, good or bad, on the teachers.

Dzhokhar has several Chechen-related interests stated in his profile. He states that he speaks Russian, English and Chechen and holds career and money as his personal priorities.

The page has but a handful of posts, most of them jokes. The owner's last visit of the page was from a mobile phone shortly before the shooting in Boston started.

Some Russian-language comments on the page accuse Tsarnaev of being behind the bombing. They were posted after the news of a possible connection of a Dzhokhar Tsarnaev to the bombing broke.

Subject: RE: BS: Explosions at Boston Marathon
From: bobad
Date: 19 Apr 13 - 09:08 AM

"The deceased suspect in the bombing of the Boston marathon, which killed three and injured more than 170, appears to have posted a video extolling an extremist religious prophecy associated with Al Qaeda to his YouTube page."

Mother Jones

Subject: RE: BS: Explosions at Boston Marathon
From: bobad
Date: 19 Apr 13 - 09:49 AM

A true hero:

"Wounded Man in Iconic Marathon Photo Helped Identify Alleged Bombers
Maggie Lange        

Before the blast took both his legs below the knee, Jeff Bauman says that he looked into the eyes of one of the alleged bombers. According to Jeff's brother Chris:

    "He woke up under so much drugs, asked for a paper and pen and wrote, 'bag, saw the guy, looked right at me.'"

Bauman's testimony, provided just moments after he revived in the hospital, has likely helped the FBI narrow the bombing suspects.

In one of the most graphic and wrenching images of the marathon bombing injuries, Bauman is the man in the wheelchair pushed by first responders moments after the explosions. Bauman was waiting for his girlfriend to cross the finish line of the marathon just before 3 p. m. According to Chris Bauman, Jeff saw a man in a cap, a black jacket over a hooded sweatshirt, eyes behind sunglasses look at him, and drop a bag at his feet.

Two and a half minutes later, the bag detonated. First responders rushed the severely wounded Bauman to the Boston Medical Center. While still in intensive care, he gave descriptions to the FBI and helped them isolate the suspects from hours of video of the attack.

Bauman's report of a face-to-face confrontation may have been one the key clues that helped the investigations team identify the current suspects—Dzhokar A. Tsarnaev, 19, of Cambridge and his now deceased 26-year-old brother, Tamerlan. The hunt for these two alleged bombers resulted in a violent shoot-out and a temporary lockdown for the city of Boston. Dzhokar A. Tsarnaev is still at large."

Subject: RE: BS: Explosions at Boston Marathon
From: Rapparee
Date: 19 Apr 13 - 09:50 AM

The AP reports one of the brothers as dead and the other as having escaped. A Metropolitan Boston Transit Authority (MBTA) police officer was wounded and in serious condition. The dead man died of blast injuries and gunshot wounds. Apparently they hijacked a car, let the driver off unharmed at a gas station, and were chased by police. Gunshots and explosive devices were directed at the pursuing cops and the final act came after the car was stopped.

Boston is pretty much a ghost town right now, with everything closed and shuttered, transit not running, etc.

Subject: RE: BS: Explosions at Boston Marathon
From: Bettynh
Date: 19 Apr 13 - 09:54 AM

Russian crazies, who would have guessed? Right now I'm feeling that Fareinheit 451 was prophetic after all. All that was missing was the overhead view of the final shootout - and that's coming soon with private drones.

Subject: RE: BS: Explosions at Boston Marathon
From: pdq
Date: 19 Apr 13 - 10:26 AM

"Russian crazies, who would have guessed?


The bombs were pure al-Qaeda so it does not really matter where the perps were born.

What matters is who they were listening to.

Subject: RE: BS: Explosions at Boston Marathon
From: Stu
Date: 19 Apr 13 - 10:27 AM

"The bombs were pure al-Qaeda so it does not really matter where the perps were born."

Evidence?

Subject: RE: BS: Explosions at Boston Marathon
From: Greg F.
Date: 19 Apr 13 - 11:09 AM

PeeDee doesn't need any evidence. Nor does he care that instructions for making that type of bomb are available all over the internet.

Just the usual anti-Muslim bullshit from the ususl anti-Muslim bullshitters.

Subject: RE: BS: Explosions at Boston Marathon
From: Ron Davies
Date: 19 Apr 13 - 11:12 AM

"Olympic champions in Leaping to Conclusions..."

Some people wait til more facts are available and some pontificate based on their own prejudices.

QED

The latter, for some reason, on Mudcat at any rate, tend to be quite left of center.    It would be interesting to discuss why. I know there are wackos on the Right, but our people right of center often make more sense than those on the Left--(except on gun control).

Subject: RE: BS: Explosions at Boston Marathon
From: Greg F.
Date: 19 Apr 13 - 11:18 AM

From the Mother Jones Article:

Update: This post has been updated to clarify that the YouTube user's identity is not confirmed.

and

...fundamentalist Australian Muslim preacher who rails against the evils of Harry Potter.

Just like the fundagelical "Christian"[sic] millenialist Bring-on-the -End-Times-and-Armageddon-&-the-Race-Wars preachers have railed against Harry Potter and other percieved agents of devil worhip for years.

Subject: RE: BS: Explosions at Boston Marathon
From: pdq
Date: 19 Apr 13 - 11:24 AM

There goes the neighborhood.

Subject: RE: BS: Explosions at Boston Marathon
From: Ron Davies
Date: 19 Apr 13 - 12:06 PM

QED

Our brilliant commentators on the Left seem to be addicted to bumper-sticker explanations of problems.

It's the Right's Fault (or GOP's Fault)

It's Israel's Fault

It's Religion's Fault

It's Capitalism's Fault.

It's the US' Fault

Anybody who wants examples, hey, no problem.    This thread has wonderful exhibits--as do a huge number of threads on religion, Israel, the death of Chavez (it's supposed to be only reasonable to leave open the possibility that the US killed him), the 11 September bombings,   etc. etc, ad nauseam.

Subject: RE: BS: Explosions at Boston Marathon
From: Ron Davies
Date: 19 Apr 13 - 12:08 PM

Oh yeah, don't forget the classic theory that the US put the maid up to entrap the Socialist French bigwig.

Subject: RE: BS: Explosions at Boston Marathon
From: Don Firth
Date: 19 Apr 13 - 12:25 PM

News report this morning included an interview with a woman who knew the family, and the two brothers. She said that they were nominally Muslim, but they never went to the mosque and didn't seem to be in the least bit interesting in religion. Nor, she said, did they seem to be interested in any particular cause.

Making rash assumptions and leaping to conclusions only leads to confusion, mistakes, and possibly, disaster.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Explosions at Boston Marathon
From: Ron Davies
Date: 19 Apr 13 - 02:58 PM

"Russian crazies".    C'mon people, don't you read or listen to anything?   It seems clear they were of Chechen heritage--a group struggling against Russian domination of their area.

What's more, they weren't even born in Chechnya.

It's unclear what the motive was, but so far there is nothing to link the attack to anything having to do with the Chechen conflict.

Why do so many Catters insist on snap judgments of everything? Are they (especially Leftists, it seems) so much prisoners of technology that they demand that every question be answered in 1 1/2 minutes, since that's the limit of their attention span?

Subject: RE: BS: Explosions at Boston Marathon
From: Bill D
Date: 19 Apr 13 - 03:41 PM

hmmm? Leftists? I'm mostly staying out of this thread because of side taking and hurried decisions. I saw way too many MEDIA hurried reports that ended up being false....

Subject: RE: BS: Explosions at Boston Marathon
From: Ron Davies
Date: 19 Apr 13 - 04:34 PM

Yes, Leftists.    Maybe the wacko Rightists are elsewhere.

Consider the list of bumper-sticker solutions--and examples-- I've given.

Every one of them is the darling of one or more leftists on Mudcat.

Subject: RE: BS: Explosions at Boston Marathon
From: Don Firth
Date: 19 Apr 13 - 04:45 PM

Sorry, Ron, but you seem to have got the wrong end of the stick. Those around here who seem to be the ones to leap to conclusions are Rightists, who tend to be Fox News junkies and fans of Rush Limbaugh and Ayn Rand. The "Blame Obama for everything!!" crowd.

Are you in Great Britain? I think what the British call "leftists" is not quite the same as here in the U. S.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Explosions at Boston Marathon
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 19 Apr 13 - 05:04 PM

For once when they announced that the suspects were "Caucasian", using that curious American terminology, they actually appear to have been correct...

Subject: RE: BS: Explosions at Boston Marathon
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 19 Apr 13 - 05:08 PM

From: Ron Davies - PM
Date: 19 Apr 13 - 12:06 PM

QED

Our brilliant commentators on the Left seem to be addicted to bumper-sticker explanations of problems.

It's the Right's Fault (or GOP's Fault)
or
Is Obama a Social/Fascist/Muslim/Kenyan neocolonialist

It's Israel's Fault
or
What can't Palestine stop hitting its self?

It's Religion's Fault
(You got me on this one No one is blaming the lack of religion on this forum. But people I know blamed Newtown on the lack of school prayer.)

It's Capitalism's Fault.
or
Is Obama a Social/Fascist/Muslim/Kenyan neocolonialist

It's the US' Fault
or
Is Obama a Social/Fascist/Muslim/Kenyan neocolonialist

Subject: RE: BS: Explosions at Boston Marathon
From: Ron Davies
Date: 19 Apr 13 - 05:38 PM

"It's religion's fault."    Again, c'mon.    This is not the same as "lack of religion's fault" which you may find as a culprit, but not much on Mudcat.


Don, look at my list.   Every one, as I said, is the hobbyhorse of a leftist on Mudcat.

On Mudcat, I don't think there are many Rightists who blame Obama for everything.   What you mainly find is those who blame Obama for not being Left enough.

Or people who blame Obama since they're desperate for a scapegoat and he's the handiest.   This last category would be people who refuse to think at all beyond bumper-sticker level.

But I don't think they qualify as Rightists.   Off Mudcat, sure there are lots who do. But not here.

Again, I am not talking about the wider world, just the intellectual giants on Mudcat.
For instance please quote a Mudcatter who has seriously talked about Obama as being a Kenyan socialist.    We have however had a stellar attorney who referred to him as a coconut--not black enough in the writer's considered opinion--from the vast experience of the writer, a white man in the UK, of being an American black man.

Subject: RE: BS: Explosions at Boston Marathon
From: Greg F.
Date: 19 Apr 13 - 06:21 PM

So what are they, Oh Simple Seeker After Truth, Fount Of All Knowledge and Supreme Intellectual Giant: solutions, examples, explanations, or hobby-horses?

Or are you just having trouble making up that gigantic steel-trap mind of yours?

Subject: RE: BS: Explosions at Boston Marathon
From: Ron Davies
Date: 19 Apr 13 - 06:24 PM

Thank you, Mr. Exhibit A.    Anybody who reads your posts need read no further.

Yet again, QED

But by the way, congratulations on staying out of the gutter recently.   Do you think you can stay out?

We're pulling for you.

Subject: RE: BS: Explosions at Boston Marathon
From: Ron Davies
Date: 19 Apr 13 - 06:29 PM

Notice I didn't say: Two words:   Wrong again.

Since I wouldn't want to be incendiary.

Subject: RE: BS: Explosions at Boston Marathon
From: Don Firth
Date: 19 Apr 13 - 07:32 PM

Ron, people such as Guest from Sanity, ichMael, Songwronger, and a couple of others are heavily into blaming Obama for everything from childhood measles to meteors from space, and are doing back-flips trying to connect the Boston Marathon bombings with an "Obama plot." They attack others who don't buy their bigotry and their asinine conspiracy theories by attacking them as "loony Liberals," and claiming that Liberals are all "brainwashed by the media," when THEY, themselves, are the ones who are parroting Rush Limbaugh Bill O'Reilly, and other Right Wing commentators and blow-hards.

In religious argument, you are generally right in that many liberals tend to be anti-religious and are most likely to buy the writings of Dawkins, et al, but there are some very liberal churches, both religiously and politically.   Religious fundamentalists are almost exclusively Right Wing.

You can't really lump the two together.

And I don't know of a single real Liberal who spews the "Obama is a Social/Fascist/Muslim/Kenyan neocolonialist" line. In fact, just the opposite! True, they may be disappointed in him for not showing enough backbone against Congress's stonewalling and are often on his case about that. But the "birthers" and that bunch of conspiracy theorists are consistenly Rightists.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Explosions at Boston Marathon
From: Songwronger
Date: 19 Apr 13 - 07:39 PM

It's a shit sandwich the media is feeding you, in case you're wondering what that familiar taste is. The Russian dressing a new touch, but it's the same ol shit.

Let's have our moment of hate now. Bad Russians. Bad Russians.

Subject: RE: BS: Explosions at Boston Marathon
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 19 Apr 13 - 07:45 PM

Looked at from Europe Obama registers as a decent Conservative. A rare breed these days back here, but not quite extinct.

This thread has rather drifted, which is odd in face of a very much live story. Sounds as if the second suspect is found and trapped so before long he should be captured, or dead.

Subject: RE: BS: Explosions at Boston Marathon
From: Ron Davies
Date: 19 Apr 13 - 08:20 PM

You're right, Don, about the Birthers. But, as I've said more than once, I am only talking about posters on Mudcat, not commentators or posters in the wider world.

Yet again, Mudcat simplistic thinkers are heavily on the Left.   Very few exceptions--only obvious one is on gun control where we on Mudcat also have our Neanderthals on the Right.

Every one of my proposed bumper stickers has a Mudcat leftist for it--or more than one.

And there are lots of examples:   one of my favorites is the Chavez theory;   it seems clear that you have to have strong wacko leftist tendencies to insist on keeping as an option that the US killed Chavez.    You might as well, as I noted earlier on another thread, keep the option that Churchill purposely withdrew the "Lusitania"'s escort so that it would be sunk, expecting that the loss of American life would bring the US into WW I.

At some point you have to recognize a crackpot theory for what it is. And it's better to put your mind in gear early, and suppress your own prejudices.

Again, if somebody can give us an exact quote by a Mudcatter seriously advancing the idea that Obama is a Kenyan socialist, please do.

Subject: RE: BS: Explosions at Boston Marathon
From: Greg F.
Date: 19 Apr 13 - 08:27 PM

Thank God you're around, Simple Seeker and Massive Intellect, to guide us poor ignorant worms toward the truth.

Subject: RE: BS: Explosions at Boston Marathon
From: Ron Davies
Date: 19 Apr 13 - 08:31 PM

As I noted, Don, there are also those who don't think at all--such as those you have cited.

They don't fit on the political spectrum at all--I don't think anybody on the spectrum would have them anyway.   I certainly don't consider them Rightists.   And anybody on the Right would be totally baffled trying to make any sense of their outpourings.

Subject: RE: BS: Explosions at Boston Marathon
From: bobad
Date: 19 Apr 13 - 08:49 PM

Suspect 2 has been taken into custody.

Subject: RE: BS: Explosions at Boston Marathon
From: Ebbie
Date: 19 Apr 13 - 08:50 PM

Wonderful. A few minutes ago they took the "second suspect" into custody and he is alive. He is on his way to the hospital.

Subject: RE: BS: Explosions at Boston Marathon
From: olddude
Date: 19 Apr 13 - 09:19 PM

I am no supporter of the death penalty, however, if they wanted to try him in Texas and some of the good old boys wanted to do a traditional neck stretching I would not shed a tear ... One only has to look at a picture of that little 8 year old boy he blew apart to get my meaning

Subject: RE: BS: Explosions at Boston Marathon
From: Don Firth
Date: 19 Apr 13 - 09:25 PM

Well, Ron, I can't agree with you on who here on Mudcat is a genuine Liberal, who is a genuine Conservative, and who is just a nutcase (several of those!), but I won't argue the point. The subject is the Boston Marathon bombings.

I'm going to turn on the news and see what the latest developments are.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Explosions at Boston Marathon
From: pdq
Date: 19 Apr 13 - 09:32 PM

"One only has to look at a picture of that little 8 year old boy he blew apart to get my meaning..." ~   Dan the Man


Yes, this bastard put the bomb right next to the 8 year boy who died, knowing that he would be blown to pieces. Justice should not have to wait for Hell.

Subject: RE: BS: Explosions at Boston Marathon
From: GUEST,gillymor
Date: 19 Apr 13 - 11:04 PM

Hasn't been enough blood for you two, huh?

Subject: RE: BS: Explosions at Boston Marathon
From: Elmore
Date: 19 Apr 13 - 11:19 PM

Glad they caught the punk.

Subject: RE: BS: Explosions at Boston Marathon
From: GUEST,TIA
Date: 20 Apr 13 - 01:14 AM

Gillymor- don't know you but think I'd like you.

Subject: RE: BS: Explosions at Boston Marathon
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 20 Apr 13 - 06:23 AM

Dan, I think the survivor might get the treatment of the younger Beltway Sniper, no death penalty due to age and coercion.

But frankly with all the gun nuts out there stocking up their assault rifles for the revolution. I'd almost like to see him strung up for shooting at cops while resisting arrest.

Subject: RE: BS: Explosions at Boston Marathon
From: bobad
Date: 20 Apr 13 - 07:55 AM

Meet Feiz Mohammad: The radical Muslim cleric who inspired the Boston Bomber, Tamerlane Tsarnaev: IB Times

Subject: RE: BS: Explosions at Boston Marathon
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 20 Apr 13 - 08:07 AM

Well, this is the first time I visited this thread, haven't read a single post...only to say to those who jumped on the bandwagon, to blame 'right' or 'left' wingers, or get all worked up because of the gun control issue, or for that matter, any 'hot topic', that got tied into the events, you might want to check your 'news' sources, who may have influenced your thinking, to fuck it up, and reconsider who and why you listen to them...and consider how in other areas you got fucked up by listening to them!!! Maybe even consider rearranging your thought processes, to be less inclined for programmed fear and loathing!!!!
......besides, it's bad for your music!..let alone what a lunatic you come off as!!!!

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Explosions at Boston Marathon
From: Ron Davies
Date: 20 Apr 13 - 08:15 AM

You're welcome, Greg.

Just think, even you can contribute something worthwhile on a consistent basis. All you have to do is:


1)    Start reading, in order to broaden your vocabulary so that you don't ever have to fall into the gutter again.

2)    Might I suggest that reading be mainly in history--with quite a few perspectives-- so that you will not insist on cardboard heroes and villains every time you discuss history or politics?

3)   By the way, I note that we very rarely see you comment in music threads.   I hope you're aware that Mudcat needs no 'politics only' posters.

Just a few helpful suggestions. I trust the honorable gentleman will consider them in the spirit intended.

Subject: RE: BS: Explosions at Boston Marathon
From: GUEST,Lavengro
Date: 20 Apr 13 - 10:38 AM

I personally don't feel it's a question of left or right in regard to political perspective, or what someone's religious belief or non-belief is. I feel it's more a question of right and wrong, and most of us know the definition of right and wrong when confronted by it without the need for a political or religious foundation.

It is wrong to deliberately target civilians in an attempt to further your aims whatever those aims are? Whoever you are, be it government, individual or organization.

I remain absolutely astounded that the entire of Boston was "shut down" due to the pursuit of one individual? I know that many posting here have differing personal definitions of what terrorism is and exactly what it constitutes and encompasses. But the official US government line on this includes: "to intimidate or coerce a civilian population; to influence the policy of a government by intimidation or coercion". It seems to me that this was achieved (short term) via local government and national and local law enforcement decisions on the day.

I just hope that others intent on this course of action in a twisted attempt to further their particular aims don't see this as a potential "new tool" in their arsenal. One man shutting down a city with all its inherent cost both in terms of liberty and economics.

If someone had told me last week that an individual on foot, on the run with some IED's could do that to a city of that size and population I would have laughed at them.

Subject: RE: BS: Explosions at Boston Marathon
From: bobad
Date: 20 Apr 13 - 10:53 AM

Some background on the brothers Tsarnaev by David Remnick of the New Yorker: The Culprits

Subject: RE: BS: Explosions at Boston Marathon
From: Ebbie
Date: 20 Apr 13 - 11:13 AM

"If someone had told me last week that an individual on foot, on the run with some IED's could do that to a city of that size and population I would have laughed at them." Guest/Lavengro

A sniper, for instance, is different from a person who has demonstrated his willingness and his ability to kill multiple numbers of people. Had he/they successfully killed crowds of people while on the run, would you still have laughed?

Subject: RE: BS: Explosions at Boston Marathon
From: GUEST,olddude
Date: 20 Apr 13 - 11:16 AM

as mad as I get I can only hope that his injuries required him to lose a leg. That would be fitting justice I think

Subject: RE: BS: Explosions at Boston Marathon
From: Jeri
Date: 20 Apr 13 - 11:20 AM

19 years old-- I want to hear the rest of the story, but I'm glad they caught him.

I agree with Lavengro about the reaction. The purpose of terrorism is to disrupt life-as-usual by causing terror. These guys were widely successful in disrupting life, mostly because terror is something the opportunistic media feeds on. MSNBC, CNN, and Fox became 24-hour bombing channels, and local stations contributed to the obsession whenever they could. Apparently, nothing else happened in the world. Three people were killed, and for a few days the USA forgot about everything else to go after a couple of guys.

Subject: RE: BS: Explosions at Boston Marathon
From: Ebbie
Date: 20 Apr 13 - 11:25 AM

sheesh Law enforcement were not reacting to the "three people killed", but to the effort to kill and maim vast numbers.

Subject: RE: BS: Explosions at Boston Marathon
From: Jeri
Date: 20 Apr 13 - 11:56 AM

sheesh Good thing I wasn't talking about law enforcement.

Subject: RE: BS: Explosions at Boston Marathon
From: olddude
Date: 20 Apr 13 - 12:14 PM

I know jeri and I am just mad, don't really mean it

Subject: RE: BS: Explosions at Boston Marathon
From: GUEST
Date: 20 Apr 13 - 12:19 PM

@Ebbie

"Had he/they successfully killed crowds of people while on the run, would you still have laughed?"

No Ebbie I wouldn't. The phrase I used was one to express disbelief, not a literal description of my potential reaction.

To take the jist of your comment above to its logical conclusion if we all stay in doors 24/7 no one can be an open terrorist target. Generally speaking the aim or terrorism is to terrify by means of violence and the threat of violence.

If the UK government had made the population of Belfast stay in doors and shut their businesses and public transportation links because of serious and impending known terrorist activity; the streets would have been empty for decades. If someone gave the enemies of the US a choice between a handful of civilian dead or the crippling of the US economy and personal freedom of its citizens by causing citywide shutdowns which one do you think they would choose?

Do you think that Islamist Terrorists overseas post videos of the beheading of construction, oil and aid workers to kill individuals; or to frighten other constuction, oil and aid workers into staying at home and not working where the terrorists don't want their expertise or humanity?

For those who died and were injured and their families it is an unimaginable personal tragedy that no one should have to suffer. For the terrorists the shut down of an entire city was (IMO) the bigger "victory" in terms of anti-US sentiment and goals.

Having served with US troops overseas I don't think it is part of the DNA of US citizens to respond to threat by hiding and clearing the streets. And I don't think that US citizens would tolerate a repeat of another curtailment of their freedom of movement under such circumstances. Let's not forget that when the "shutdown" was lifted the threat was exactly the same as when it was initailly enforced. The powers that be (IMO) just realised it was an unsustainable overreaction and lifted it.

Subject: RE: BS: Explosions at Boston Marathon
From: GUEST,Lavengro
Date: 20 Apr 13 - 12:22 PM

Above post by Lavengro.

Subject: RE: BS: Explosions at Boston Marathon
From: Jeri
Date: 20 Apr 13 - 12:27 PM

For the record, I don't have a problem with them shutting down Boston. That made sense to me, and the citizens of Boston seem happy with the result. It's a huge win for law enforcement. I have a problem with the media.

Subject: RE: BS: Explosions at Boston Marathon
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 20 Apr 13 - 12:34 PM

Adding to Jeri- even the BBC channel devoted a great deal of coverage, ommitting other "news from several newscasts."

As with other such killings, the perpetrators gave little sign of their mental state. After the fact, people "remember" possible indicators.

The truth is that it is imposssible to know the mind of another.

Congratulations to all the forces and agencies that contributed to the early apprehension of the killers. The request to the citizens of Boston to "lock down" probably helped, limiting possibilities of escape.

In the video after the second brother was caught, I saw that even ATF was there, with dogs.

Subject: RE: BS: Explosions at Boston Marathon
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 20 Apr 13 - 12:45 PM

Don Firth: "Ron, people such as Guest from Sanity, ichMael, Songwronger, and a couple of others are heavily into blaming Obama for everything from childhood measles to meteors from space, and are doing back-flips trying to connect the Boston Marathon bombings with an "Obama plot."...blah blah blah...."

You are out of your ever lovin' mind! You just can't get over that you've lost a couple of your pet arguments, because you based them on a political agenda, rather than facts.

get over it, and move on.....I was going to insert 'learn something'., but in your case you're unteachable, because you're so blocked!

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Explosions at Boston Marathon
From: GUEST,gillymor
Date: 20 Apr 13 - 12:49 PM

Lavengro; "I just hope that others intent on this course of action in a twisted attempt to further their particular aims don't see this as a potential "new tool" in their arsenal. One man shutting down a city with all its inherent cost both in terms of liberty and economics."

I agree with that but I think to go after these guys with the measures and the degree of force they used was exactly the right response. It seems that these brothers (and for all they knew others)had embarked on a bombing campaign. They had to be stopped and those neighborhoods had to be secured as quickly as possible.

As for copycats I think the spectacle that I witnessed on TV had to be discouraging to some aspiring terrorists( okay, maybe not hardcore fundamentalists). If they were watching they saw a small army of police run down 2 murderers and shoot them down like dogs. If the tedious and repetetive 24 hour news cycle was disrupted it was no great loss to me.

It will be interesting to hear Bostonians opinions of the police effort. Their initial response seemed to be overwhelmingly positive.

Subject: RE: BS: Explosions at Boston Marathon
From: Bettynh
Date: 20 Apr 13 - 01:31 PM

OK, so we're done with the manhunt and media frenzy and into observations and lessons learned. Here are a few things I saw:

Battlefield medicine learned in military training saved lives that day. Those folks, mostly military veterans of one sort or another; that rushed into the scene actually made a real difference.

The National Guard, often cited as useless, immediately moved to shut down the subway nearby and guard the entrances. The entire subway system was shut down very quickly. Logan Airport was shut down.

The race was diverted to another street and runners heading directly into the scene bypassed it and landed on the Boston Common, a large open area. A mile or so back, the race was halted in a space big enough to contain the crowd as it grew (from runners coming into it).

There was a hospital tent manned with doctors and nurses and equipped with emergency equipment within a few yards of the scenes. Ambulances were lined up and ready. Of the people not killed outright by the blasts, only one person died later of her injuries. Many were in surgery within the "golden hour."

The immediate area was cleared of uninvolved people very quickly and with minimal panic. There was an immediate move to preserve evidence. Different branches of the police were communicating effectively.   

Request for video and still images from that area were sent out immediately.

So there was a plan, and it was executed - time will tell, but it looks to me that it went pretty well. Media will have learned some hard lessons about believing stray twitter entries. Within a day, every government agency imaginable had a presence (well maybe not Agriculture, but who really knows?). In this day of budget cuts, someone should take a look at that. There was confusion and distress on the part of the people running and their families and stories of good Samaritans who helped them cope. Stranded people seem to have found each other rather quickly. Reuniting people and their stuff may take longer. The Red Cross did a lot in the first day or so in support of families and survivors, as well as feeding first responders.

People want to do something to help. Within a day, calls for blood donations were made for "maybe next month in the name of the victims," indicating there'd been an overload of donations already. The mayor and governor set up that fund that promises to be a reliable charity. If staying indoors on one of the most beautiful days so far this spring was a hardship, it at least was SOMETHING ALL THE PEOPLE OF BOSTON COULD CONTRIBUTE. After 911, the only message I heard from George W. was "go shopping," which made no sense then and even less sense now.

Subject: RE: BS: Explosions at Boston Marathon
From: Stringsinger
Date: 20 Apr 13 - 01:46 PM

Unfortunately, aspiring terrorists probably don't give a damn whether TV news talks about them one way or another but possibly relish the publicity. Those whose religious beliefs allow them to blow themselves up so they can meet virgins will not be discouraged in their lunacy.

The problem is that terrorist justification comes from the use of weaponized drones and rogue defense contractors killing innocent women and children in Mid-East countries. No one wants to talk about this. Iraq has been utterly destroyed by the US thanks to George W. Bush.

Fundamentalist Islamists use this as a "chickens come home to roost" argument. They subjugate their women, imprison them with burquas and beatings and honor killings. Do you honestly think this kind of insanity will be discouraging to them? Some of them masochistically cultivate this "discouragement".

There are too many guns on the street, a cowardly Congress, a military industrial complex that makes money off the blood of innocents, and an open door in a supposedly pluralistic society to prevent further happenings like this horrific one.

I fear unless we change our policies in this country, we're just beginning to see the tip of the iceberg, here. How can Obama preach a high-minded sermon when Bradley Manning lies dormant in jail, armed drones fly over Pakistan and other places, Bush torturers are not prosecuted, nuclear proliferation treaties are not honored and Wikileaks is censored and ACORN is blamed, not understood?

Americans are incredibly naive not to address these problems and speak out.   Otherwise
this country is asking for it. You can't fight insanity with insanity.

Subject: RE: BS: Explosions at Boston Marathon
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 20 Apr 13 - 01:48 PM

Do we yet know that the dead person and the arrested person are the perpetrators? Have they or spokespeople claimed responsibility? If not they are alleged perpetrators, no more.

Do we yet know their purpose? "Know" rather than jumping to conclusions about it?

Subject: RE: BS: Explosions at Boston Marathon
From: Greg F.
Date: 20 Apr 13 - 01:57 PM

Just a few helpful suggestions. I trust the honorable gentleman will consider them in the spirit intended.

I most certainly DO accept them in the spirit which you intended, o Omniscient One! And in that same spirit, go fuck yourself.

Subject: RE: BS: Explosions at Boston Marathon
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 20 Apr 13 - 03:23 PM

Of course we don't know their purpose. All we can do in that direction is to try to imagine oursellves into their heads, and persuade our imaginary self to do the same.

The same way we might try to imagine piloting killer drones against far away villages.

Quite a difficult feat of imagination.

Subject: RE: BS: Explosions at Boston Marathon
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 20 Apr 13 - 04:33 PM

Yes, all this rejoicing is totally out of order. You'd think Maggie Thatcher had died or something.

Subject: RE: BS: Explosions at Boston Marathon
From: Bettynh
Date: 20 Apr 13 - 05:13 PM

Richard, there's been no statement of responsibility from the person in custody or anybody claiming to speak for him.

There are photos of him (his face was matched to his passport photo by facial recognition) entering the incident zone with a large dark backpack and leaving without the backpack.

News reports (for what it's worth) that they told the victim of carjacking prior to the manhunt, "We just killed a cop and bombed the race. Get into the car." He did, and was released after withdrawing as much cash from ATMs as was possible.

During the chase, pipe bombs and a defective pressure cooker bomb were thrown. (The pressure cooker bomb exploded but the cover had loosened, making it ineffective).

Certainly, there will be formal interrogation. There have been numerous reports from other places that computers have been confiscated, ordinance rendered safe, and people detained (though I don't think there have been any other arrests). It will probably be a long time before any completely coherent story emerges, but I'm pretty satisfied that they have the right person and there are no others immediately involved. But of course, he is still officially the alleged bomber.

Subject: RE: BS: Explosions at Boston Marathon
From: pdq
Date: 20 Apr 13 - 05:14 PM

There are several Mudcatters you could stick a sign on that reads "OUT OF ORDER".

Subject: RE: BS: Explosions at Boston Marathon
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 20 Apr 13 - 05:43 PM

Thank you Bettynh. I thought as much. And it follows that motivation is not established. So one would be wrong to speak of "terrorism".


PS. Ordnance, not ordinance.

Subject: RE: BS: Explosions at Boston Marathon
From: Don Firth
Date: 20 Apr 13 - 06:50 PM

And just which arguments might those be, Goofballupagus?

Specifically!

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Explosions at Boston Marathon
From: Stringsinger
Date: 20 Apr 13 - 07:14 PM

They will have to be tried in court to establish whether they actually are the right persons.
This is why we have courts of law, to determine these things. They are accused of terrorism and whether they are or not, that's what has to be established. We know their fundamentalist Islamic connections and what that pattern of behavior has entailed in the past however, It is not fair for people to intimidate Muslims as was done with a Muslim lady who was beaten by assailants who escaped. This is essentially un-American.

Here, I think the US missed a bet by not putting Osama bin Laden on trial to be convicted in a court of law. Our credibility as a just nation is undermined by this.

Subject: RE: BS: Explosions at Boston Marathon
From: Bettynh
Date: 20 Apr 13 - 07:16 PM

LOL, Thanks Richard.

Subject: RE: BS: Explosions at Boston Marathon
From: Greg F.
Date: 20 Apr 13 - 08:22 PM

There are several Mudcatters you could stick a sign on that reads "OUT OF ORDER".

Im which group I assume you include yourself, PeeDee. Are you wearing your sign now?

Subject: RE: BS: Explosions at Boston Marathon
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 21 Apr 13 - 04:31 AM

While this is all very sad, and regrettable, I wonder, why all the fuss?
An average of 85 people a day are gunned down in the US, but that attracts no national opprobrium, just a little local angst.

Subject: RE: BS: Explosions at Boston Marathon
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 21 Apr 13 - 04:48 AM

..and even more from auto accidents.....I know, let's take away their cars!....or obesity....let's take away their food!
..by the way, John, percentages of gun owners to car owner, and deaths resulted, the cars FAR outnumber those cause by guns....and eating disorders outnumber both of the other two combined times ten!...though I do understand your concerns.

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Explosions at Boston Marathon
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 21 Apr 13 - 05:01 AM

All we can do in that direction is to try to imagine oursellves into their heads, and persuade our imaginary self to do the same.
How are you getting on with that?
Filling a pot with explosives and nails to kill harmless strangers.
Looking at the people and children as you leave your device next to them, and believing you are doing good because they are not of your faith.

I can not.
Help me out.

At least the drone pilots are seeking out violent enemies and at least trying to spare the innocent.

Subject: RE: BS: Explosions at Boston Marathon
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 21 Apr 13 - 08:15 AM

70% of those killed by drones, are innocent, including women and children!

Subject: RE: BS: Explosions at Boston Marathon
From: bobad
Date: 21 Apr 13 - 09:29 AM

How the Boston bombing is being reported in at least one corner of the Middle east:

"In an article titled "The Boston Explosions – Look For Jews" on the Jordanian website Ammon News, Palestinian-born Jordanian journalist As'ad Al-'Azouni writes that the Jews and the "American right" were behind the recent Boston bombing, just as they had been behind the attacks of 9/11..."

The Commentator

Subject: RE: BS: Explosions at Boston Marathon
From: akenaton
Date: 21 Apr 13 - 09:43 AM

Well, i did say this looked likely to be Islamist inspired.

If Obama's "Drone Warfare" is not curtailed, expect much more of the same....its too easy, the London underground bombers were also just kids.

Each family that's wiped out by a drone, makes another hundred young terrorists.
Of course the use of drones to kill civilians is also terrorism, designed to alienate the people from the ideology......to frighten them into opposition.

The tactic was widely used in Vietnam.

Subject: RE: BS: Explosions at Boston Marathon
From: meself
Date: 21 Apr 13 - 11:15 AM

"Well, i did say this looked likely to be Islamist inspired."

Now there's a thought that didn't occur to anyone else .... However, I think it's still early to be gloating; it has not yet been established what 'inspired' this.

----------------------

on another note: we're being told that, if Suspect #2 is ever fit to be questioned, he will not be read his Miranda rights, and that some
Republican Senators want him declared an "enemy combatant", so that he will not have the rights of a common criminal ....

Subject: RE: BS: Explosions at Boston Marathon
From: Stringsinger
Date: 21 Apr 13 - 11:28 AM

"While this is all very sad, and regrettable, I wonder, why all the fuss?"

It's because we have engendered in the US a culture of violence which spills over to
terrorist activities. The guns on the street have a correlation with the bombing incidents because it has become permissible to accept violence as something that no one can do anything about. It's a religious dictum that has to do with the "depravity of man".

If war is inevitable, it follows that violence is considered a human proclivity that is inherent.

I wholeheartedly disagree with this view. Until the culture of violence is rejected, there will be further unnecessary incidents like Boston. To cliche it: "We are better than this".

Subject: RE: BS: Explosions at Boston Marathon
From: olddude
Date: 21 Apr 13 - 12:19 PM

One thing for sure is the cops need a lot of firearm training again. The police chief was talking how the older one walked towards the officers within ten feet, while they were exchanging fire. He ran out of ammo, the cops tackled him and then his brother ran him over which killed him. Now you can be a really good shot but when the heat of the battle occurs you forget your training, that is what leads to getting killed. I suggest more combat training for the officers if only to protect themselves and I hope other police forces do the same. The chief said around 200 rounds were fired all in all

Subject: RE: BS: Explosions at Boston Marathon
From: Ebbie
Date: 21 Apr 13 - 12:24 PM

There are so many conflicting stories. I hadn't heard the police-chief account, Dan. They have said that the older suspect was wearing a suicide belt- not true?

Subject: RE: BS: Explosions at Boston Marathon
From: olddude
Date: 21 Apr 13 - 12:31 PM

Ebbie he was for sure. Even had a triggering device, when his brother ran him over, he dragged his brother under the car for several hundred yards. It was fortunate the guy didn't have a chance to engage the bomb or we would have lost two or more officers.

In a gun fight the average hit rate for a police officer is around 25%. A navy seal or a guy like Rapparee is probably in the high 90%. We have to train our officers in more combat situations or we will lose our very brave officers who put their life in the line of fire.

Subject: RE: BS: Explosions at Boston Marathon
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 21 Apr 13 - 01:30 PM

One of the more interesting --and troubling---aspect of this ghastly affair id the eagerness of some authorities (notable McCain) to insist on ignoring the constitutional rights of the accused younger brother (a US citizen). No Miranda warning. No presumption of innocence. An insistence that he be treated, not as an accused criminal, but as a "enemy combatant" in some undeclared war.
    The idea that it's necessary to ignore the Constitution in order to protect it is, to me, a very scary one.

Subject: RE: BS: Explosions at Boston Marathon
From: michaelr
Date: 21 Apr 13 - 02:07 PM

Alan Dershovitz is quoted as saying, "This is an American citizen being tried for a crime that occurred domestically, and there is simply no (legal) way to treat him as an enemy combatant - not even close." I agree. No matter how much we despise the man and his actions, justice must be served according to the laws of the land.

Perhaps more troubling is the revelation that the Russian government had in 2011 asked the FBI for information about the older brother, Tamerlan (who did not acquire US citizenship), apparently out of concern about possible terrorist connections he formed while spending six months in Chechnya or Dagestan. The Russians feared that "he could be a risk, and they had something on him and were concerned about him travelling to their region." But the FBI never followed up on Tamerlan once he returned.

Subject: RE: BS: Explosions at Boston Marathon
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 21 Apr 13 - 02:30 PM

He should be treated in the same way as they treated Ted Kaczynski

Subject: RE: BS: Explosions at Boston Marathon
From: pdq
Date: 21 Apr 13 - 02:31 PM

Any naturalized citizen can be stripped of their citizenship for simply lying on the application form.

Most cases have involved people who committed in crimes during WWII or were high ranking Nazis.

Recently, many Muslims have been quietly denaturalized and sent back home due to their terrorist connections.

Subject: RE: BS: Explosions at Boston Marathon
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 21 Apr 13 - 02:45 PM

pdq-
Any evidence that he was lying? Last I heard, he was unable to speak.
And it strikes me that denaturalization, without a trial and conviction, is just as unconstitutanal And just as scary.

Subject: RE: BS: Explosions at Boston Marathon
From: GUEST,olddude
Date: 21 Apr 13 - 02:53 PM

I have 100% confidence in the system. There is no need to do that foreign combatant stuff here. It will only make a firestorm support for him in other countries. He will be tried and punished in the US federal court if they are smart and stop talking about foreign combatant stuff.

Subject: RE: BS: Explosions at Boston Marathon
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 21 Apr 13 - 02:57 PM

I can't imagine that when someone is capture after being shot in the head there can be any question of making a formal arrest with a "Miranda warning" while he is lying there unconscious.

As for the term "enemy combatant" which simultaneously excludes any rights as a civilian or as a soldier, has it ever been defined?
...................
One puzzling thing about all this has been constant statement from the President and others about how it demonstrated that it was impossible to terrorize Americans, when it appears pretty evident that that was precisely what happened, with the whole city of Boston in lockdown for an extended period because of one man on the run.

That doesn't impy that it might have been a reasonable decision - though it's worth noting that it was only when the lockdown was lifted that the fugitive was found by a householder, not by the police.

Subject: RE: BS: Explosions at Boston Marathon
From: pdq
Date: 21 Apr 13 - 03:02 PM

The United States Oath of Allegiance (officially referred to as the "Oath of Allegiance," 8 C.F.R. Part 337 (2008))...


"I hereby declare, on oath, that I absolutely and entirely renounce and abjure all allegiance and fidelity to any foreign prince, potentate, state, or sovereignty of whom or which I have heretofore been a subject or citizen; that I will support and defend the Constitution and laws of the United States of America against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; that I will bear arms on behalf of the United States when required by the law; that I will perform :noncombatant service in the Armed Forces of the United States when required by the law; that I will perform work of national importance under civilian direction when required by the law; and that I take this obligation freely without any mental reservation or purpose of evasion; so help me God."

Subject: RE: BS: Explosions at Boston Marathon
From: GUEST,olddude
Date: 21 Apr 13 - 03:17 PM

someone has to define that term to me also Mcgrath. I don't understand what the rules are. I thought it was just for enemies captured on foreign soil or non citizens ... I dunno. It is also evident that the FBI may have dropped the ball on the warning in 2011 by Russia

Subject: RE: BS: Explosions at Boston Marathon
From: Ebbie
Date: 21 Apr 13 - 03:27 PM

It has been explained that there is provision made in the Miranda law to temporarily suspend the law when there is danger of a cell or another individual poised to cause imminent harm or when the possibility exists that the individual has boobytrapped a location.

When that fear has been negated, then the individual must be read his Miranda rights.

Makes sense to me. In fact, it makes more sense to me than a rigid knee jerk law that takes no account of existing situations.

Subject: RE: BS: Explosions at Boston Marathon
From: Ebbie
Date: 21 Apr 13 - 03:31 PM

Miranda rights are for the purpose of informing the individual that "anything he says or does may be held against him in a court of law."

I would guess if the individual gives accurate information to law enforcement of something poised to cause imminent danger to the populace, that even if that information cannot be brought against him in court, they would present other means of finding him culpable.

Subject: RE: BS: Explosions at Boston Marathon
From: olddude
Date: 21 Apr 13 - 03:32 PM

Here is something that I hope comes out, The older guy beat the hell out of his girlfriend at the time. Remember he only has a green card, his brother was a naturalized citizen. Now charges were filed against the older brother and his girlfriend (now his wife) dropped them. He then left the country for 6 months to go to an area that we know houses terrorism. coupled with the Russian warning, why the hell was he allowed back into the country? I mean shouldn't the door have been closed on him if for no other reason then formal charges were filed. A green card does not give you rights, you are in this country at the favor of the state dept not as a right

Subject: RE: BS: Explosions at Boston Marathon
From: pdq
Date: 21 Apr 13 - 03:34 PM

There are very different things being lumped together...

       Miranda Rights

       denaturalization

       declaring the bomber an "enemy combatant"

One thing that is almost certain is that he will not be read Miranda under any circumstances.

Subject: RE: BS: Explosions at Boston Marathon
From: Bettynh
Date: 21 Apr 13 - 03:50 PM

Every time I flip by FoxNews today, I hear "Miranda Rights." So they're spending hours of air time getting excited about supposed statements A) from a person who is physically unable to talk and B) unnecessary for prosecution anyway? Typical. I only hope that Nancy Grace will pass on this (though I doubt she will).

Subject: RE: BS: Explosions at Boston Marathon
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 21 Apr 13 - 04:01 PM

Of course it would be possible to make that declaration quite sincerely, and change your mind about it subsequently. And it would be remarkably hard to prove that you had in fact been lying when you made it. More especially perhaps in the case of a teenager. They tend to be changeable about stuff.

Subject: RE: BS: Explosions at Boston Marathon
From: Ebbie
Date: 21 Apr 13 - 04:18 PM

"...would be possible to make that declaration quite sincerely, and change your mind about it subsequently."

What declaration is that, Kevin?

Subject: RE: BS: Explosions at Boston Marathon
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 21 Apr 13 - 04:29 PM

The Oath of Allegiance quoted by pdq a few posts back, which starts "I hereby declare"

Subject: RE: BS: Explosions at Boston Marathon
From: Greg F.
Date: 21 Apr 13 - 04:46 PM

if they are smart and stop talking about foreign [enemy] combatant stuff

Ah, but ya see, Dan, they AREN'T smart - and PeeDee is a good example.

Subject: RE: BS: Explosions at Boston Marathon
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 22 Apr 13 - 04:40 AM

The London Marathon yesterday had even bigger crowds than usual, and was a great success.

A silence was held for the Boston victims, and runners wore black ribbons for them.

Subject: RE: BS: Explosions at Boston Marathon
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 22 Apr 13 - 04:59 AM

Remember John Adams, and the original Boston Massacre.

Subject: RE: BS: Explosions at Boston Marathon
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 22 Apr 13 - 12:34 PM

the point of not giving a Miranda warning is that it pretty muh eliminates the possibility of having him tried within the criminal oourt sytstem---it pretty much assumes a military tribunal will be employed.

Subject: RE: BS: Explosions at Boston Marathon
From: Bettynh
Date: 22 Apr 13 - 01:06 PM

My son is in basic training for the army, so he's rather isolated from national and local news. I've been struggling to write him about this coherently and accurately, keeping it to less than book size. Thanks, bobad, for that New Yorker article. I printed it out to send. Today's letter will be describing aftermath - planning in Boston to open the crime sceene street (would that every city leader could demand clear representation from insurance companies, pro bono lawyers to represent local companies, and a loan pool for help with continuing business in the area - Mayor Menino will be sorely missed after this November), local and various agency cops winding down, sports and other events postponed, etc. I may mention the Miranda warning issue, but only to remind him that it's about the verbal recitation of rights the accused has, whether warned or not, as a citizen. I'll remind him that blaming all Muslims for this would be equivalent to blaming all Christians for the Branch Davidians (and the events of 20 years ago in Waco) or all video games for the Columbine school shootings of 13 years ago. My son is 30, so maybe he can help others in his group process this without hate. This whole affair probably has more to do with disaffected American young men (my son knows many) than it does with foreign intrigue.

Subject: RE: BS: Explosions at Boston Marathon
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 22 Apr 13 - 01:26 PM

Since Timothy McVeigh was tried, and convicted, in an ordinary court for murdering a lot of people in a terrorist bombing, what would be the rationale for not doing the same in the case of his fellow citizen involved in the Boston bombings?

Subject: RE: BS: Explosions at Boston Marathon
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 22 Apr 13 - 01:30 PM

And I see that it's been determined any trial will in fact be in a civilian court.

Subject: RE: BS: Explosions at Boston Marathon
From: Lighter
Date: 22 Apr 13 - 01:56 PM

> the point of not giving a Miranda warning is that it pretty muh eliminates the possibility of having him tried within the criminal oourt sytstem---it pretty much assumes a military tribunal will be employed.

Not at all, at least according to numerous legal experts on TV. The Supreme Court has ruled an "Exception to the Miranda Decision." This Exception states that the warning is not required when public safety may reasonably be thought to be under continued threat (e.g., the possibility of unexploded bombs or a larger conspiracy).

No information gained under the Exception, however, may be used in court against the suspect. The reasoning is that the Fifth Amendment protects you from self-incrimination; it doesn't give you the right also to withhold vital information that cannot incriminate you. (And it cannot if prosecutors are forbidden to use it in court.)

What's more, if there's an airtight case against him - based on photos, physical evidence, and plenty of witnesses - prosecutors may not need any self-incriminating statement from him.

They can read him his Miranda rights after questioning him about things that cannot be used against him. And they probably will (short of an airtight case), if only to eliminate a basis for appeal.

Finally, if he doesn't want to talk, they can't legally make him. To "mirandize" a suspect only makes certain he knows what's in the Constitution, which he may know anyway. The Miranda decision was based on the fact that many arrested suspects *had no idea* they had a right to remain silent and a right to a lawyer.

Subject: RE: BS: Explosions at Boston Marathon
From: Bettynh
Date: 22 Apr 13 - 01:57 PM

McGrath, if they're determined to get the death penalty, it'll have to be a federal case. Massachusetts has abolished the death penalty. State lines weren't crossed during the actual crimes, so federal juristiction might be arguable. The various police agencies seem to be trying very hard to maintain a united front, with minimal turf wars. Time will tell on that front.

Subject: RE: BS: Explosions at Boston Marathon
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 22 Apr 13 - 03:56 PM

Might make a lot more sense to treat it as what it was, murder carried out by a Boston resident in Boston, to be tried in the Massachusetts legal system. This would mean that the death penalty could not be imposed, but what good would it do to kill him anyway?

Subject: RE: BS: Explosions at Boston Marathon
From: Lighter
Date: 22 Apr 13 - 05:21 PM

Dz. has been provided with an attorney - so somebody is advising him of his rights. His lawyer is obligated to tell him he doesn't have to talk.

He faces Federal charges of premeditated murder with an explosive device in an act of terror. There will be other charges, including state charges in Massachusetts. The Federal charge carries a potential death penalty even if state charges do not.

As an American citizen arrested on American soil, it appears so far that he will be tried in civilian court with full Constitutional protections.

Subject: RE: BS: Explosions at Boston Marathon
From: bobad
Date: 22 Apr 13 - 05:39 PM

"what it was, murder carried out by a Boston resident in Boston,"

It was somewhat more than that obviously as attested to by the charges laid.

Subject: RE: BS: Explosions at Boston Marathon
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 22 Apr 13 - 06:10 PM

Terrorism is murder. And this was a particularly nasty and sordid murder. Treating it as "something more" in practice gives it a status, even a dignity it doesn't deserve.

Subject: RE: BS: Explosions at Boston Marathon
From: bobad
Date: 22 Apr 13 - 06:21 PM

" In a criminal complaint unsealed Monday in United States District Court for the District of Massachusetts, Mr. Tsarnaev was charged with one count of "using and conspiring to use a weapon of mass destruction" against persons and property within the United States resulting in death, and one count of "malicious destruction of property by means of an explosive device resulting in death" in last week's bombings.

If he is convicted of the charges, he could face the death penalty."

NY Times:

Subject: RE: BS: Explosions at Boston Marathon
From: Greg F.
Date: 22 Apr 13 - 07:08 PM

Since Timothy McVeigh was tried, and convicted, in an ordinary court for murdering a lot of people in a terrorist bombing, what would be the rationale for not doing the same in the case of his fellow citizen involved in the Boston bombings?

McVeigh didn't have any Muslim connections.

Subject: RE: BS: Explosions at Boston Marathon
From: bobad
Date: 22 Apr 13 - 07:28 PM

He is being tried in an ordinary court of law so all you apologists of Islamism will have to find another case to embrace so you can trumpet your rallying call of Islamophobia.

Subject: RE: BS: Explosions at Boston Marathon
From: GUEST,gillymor
Date: 22 Apr 13 - 08:20 PM

We need look no further than your post, Bobad.

Subject: RE: BS: Explosions at Boston Marathon
From: bobad
Date: 22 Apr 13 - 08:24 PM

"We need look no further than your post, Bobad."

You are out of your league, you don't know what you're talking about. Educate yourself.

Subject: RE: BS: Explosions at Boston Marathon
From: bobad
Date: 22 Apr 13 - 08:39 PM

gillymor, I abhor Islamists and the methods they employ to promote their agenda. Do you agree with them and support their agenda?

Subject: RE: BS: Explosions at Boston Marathon
From: Greg F.
Date: 22 Apr 13 - 08:59 PM

Must you act the ass, Bobad?

Subject: RE: BS: Explosions at Boston Marathon
From: bobad
Date: 22 Apr 13 - 09:08 PM

Must you act the stalker Greg?

Subject: RE: BS: Explosions at Boston Marathon
From: Greg F.
Date: 22 Apr 13 - 09:14 PM

"Stalker"? Geez, Bobad - get a life & stop whining like a little kid..

Subject: RE: BS: Explosions at Boston Marathon
From: bobad
Date: 22 Apr 13 - 09:25 PM

Gee Greg, do you ever have an opinion on the topics under discussion or do you just stalk and call those who you don't agree with names?

Subject: RE: BS: Explosions at Boston Marathon
From: Greg F.
Date: 22 Apr 13 - 09:26 PM

Mommy, Mommy the bad man's picking on me Waaaahhhhhh

Subject: RE: BS: Explosions at Boston Marathon
From: Lighter
Date: 22 Apr 13 - 09:26 PM

I think we all agree that armed, violent, radical, anti-Christian, anti-Jewish, anti-Buddhist, anti-Hindu, anti-western, anti-democratic, anti-education, anti-feminist, anti-life, pro-theocratic jihadists are a genuine threat to global peace and security.

Or do we?

Subject: RE: BS: Explosions at Boston Marathon
From: bobad
Date: 22 Apr 13 - 09:33 PM

It would appear, Lighter, that some either do or do not understand the distinction between Islam and Islamism and demonstrate their ignorance by calling people names.

Subject: RE: BS: Explosions at Boston Marathon
From: bobad
Date: 22 Apr 13 - 09:34 PM

That should read "some either do not"

Subject: RE: BS: Explosions at Boston Marathon
From: Greg F.
Date: 22 Apr 13 - 09:49 PM

some...do not understand the distinction between Islam and Islamism

As others do not understand the distinction between Judaism and Zionism.

Subject: RE: BS: Explosions at Boston Marathon
From: Lighter
Date: 22 Apr 13 - 09:51 PM

Unfortunately the words "Islamism" and "Islam" are so similar as to invite confusion.

That's why I prefer to say "violent jihadists" or something like that.

Subject: RE: BS: Explosions at Boston Marathon
From: Greg F.
Date: 22 Apr 13 - 09:53 PM

That's why I prefer to say "violent jihadists"

Does that designation include Christian and Jewish jihadists?

Subject: RE: BS: Explosions at Boston Marathon
From: bobad
Date: 22 Apr 13 - 09:54 PM

"As others do not understand the distinction between Judaism and Zionism."

False equivalence, but nice try.

Subject: RE: BS: Explosions at Boston Marathon
From: Greg F.
Date: 22 Apr 13 - 09:58 PM

False equivalence

How so? Please be specific.

Subject: RE: BS: Explosions at Boston Marathon
From: bobad
Date: 22 Apr 13 - 10:05 PM

"Does that designation include Christian and Jewish jihadists?"

Another attempt at a false equivalence, Greg's on a roll tonight.

Subject: RE: BS: Explosions at Boston Marathon
From: bobad
Date: 22 Apr 13 - 10:28 PM

"Unfortunately the words "Islamism" and "Islam" are so similar as to invite confusion.

That's why I prefer to say "violent jihadists" or something like that."

Ignorance is no excuse for bad manners and false accusations.

Subject: RE: BS: Explosions at Boston Marathon
From: akenaton
Date: 23 Apr 13 - 02:54 AM

"gillymor, I abhor Islamists and the methods they employ to promote their agenda. Do you agree with them and support their agenda?"

Bobad...If you abhor Islamists so much, why did you support them in most of the recent conflicts in the Middle East and North Africa.

You cant have been unaware that their position and agenda would be massively strengthened by the overthrow of people like Col Gadaffi.

I told you often enough!

Subject: RE: BS: Explosions at Boston Marathon
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 23 Apr 13 - 03:00 AM

I cannot help noting that Bobad's posts seem to contain internal contradictions.

I also have noticed in general that people using the term "Islamist" are usually trying to imply that all followers of Islam are suspect.

Subject: RE: BS: Explosions at Boston Marathon
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 23 Apr 13 - 03:15 AM

I also have noticed in general that people using the term "Islamist" are usually trying to imply that all followers of Islam are suspect.

What a stupid statement.
"Islamist" and "Islamism" are recognised and neutral words.
How are we to discuss those issues without using the accepted words for describing them?

You may find discussion of those issues uncomfortable, but that is entirely your problem.

Subject: RE: BS: Explosions at Boston Marathon
From: bobad
Date: 23 Apr 13 - 07:25 AM

"I also have noticed in general that people using the term "Islamist" are usually trying to imply that all followers of Islam are suspect."

The distinction is clear in my mind, perhaps you are looking for something that isn't there or are yourself unclear on the distinction. I'm sure that with a little effort you can work it out.

Subject: RE: BS: Explosions at Boston Marathon
From: bobad
Date: 23 Apr 13 - 07:56 AM

It is heartening to see a leader from the Muslim community step up to the plate to condemn Islamism and extremism. Dr. M. Zuhdi Jasser, who describes himself as a reform Muslim, says that mainstream Muslims are not doing enough in the fight against extremism and that too many are wallowing in denial and victimhood. And for those here who seem to have a problem with the distinction between Islamism and Islam Dr. Jasser makes it clear enough so that even you should be able to understand it.

Yahoo News

Subject: RE: BS: Explosions at Boston Marathon
From: bobad
Date: 24 Apr 13 - 07:11 AM

Jihad explained:

It's the doctrine of jihad, stupid
Tarek Fatah

Twelve years after 9/11 and the beat goes on. If the news of jihadi terrorist bombings in Boston and Bangalore was not enough to wake us from our collective slumber, the arrests of Chiheb Esseghaier of Montreal and Raed Jaser from Toronto this week certainly should. Though I doubt it.

According to RCMP Assistant Commissioner James Malizia, the two Muslim men were allegedly getting "direction and guidance" from al-Qaida elements in Iran. He added: "Had this plot been carried out, it would have resulted in innocent people being killed or seriously injured."

While ordinary Canadians and non-Muslims around the world are bewildered by these never-ending news reports of terrorism and alleged plots, the response by the leaders of the Islamic community is the tired old cliche — Islam is a religion of peace, and jihad is simply an "inner struggle."

The fact is these terrorists are motivated by one powerful belief — the doctrine of armed jihad against the "kuffar" (non-Muslims).

It is worth noting that not a single Muslim cleric since 9/11 has mustered the courage to say the doctrine of armed jihad is defunct and inapplicable in the 21st century. They rightfully denounce terrorism, but dare not denounce jihad.

The armed jihad launched against the infidels, is clearly promoted by the 20th-century writings of such Islamists as Syed Qutb and Hassan al-Banna of the Egyptian Muslim Brotherhood and the late Syed Maudoodi of Jamaat-e-Islami of Indo-Pakistan.

Young Muslims across Canada and the U.S. are given booklets titled Towards Understanding Islam, written by Maudoodi. In the booklet, Maudoodi exhorts ordinary Muslims to launch jihad, as in armed struggle, against non-Muslims.

"Jihad is part of this overall defence of Islam," he writes.

In case the reader is left with any doubt about the meaning of the word "jihad," Maudoodi clarifies:

    "In the language of the Divine Law, this word (jihad) is used specifically for the war that is waged solely in the name of God against those who perpetrate oppression as enemies of Islam. This supreme sacrifice is the responsibility of all Muslims."

Maudoodi goes on to label Muslims who refuse the call to armed jihad as apostates:

    "Jihad is as much a primary duty as are daily prayers or fasting. One who avoids it is a sinner. His every claim to being a Muslim is doubtful. He is plainly a hypocrite who fails in the test of sincerity and all his acts of worship are a sham, a worthless, hollow show of deception."

If Maudoodi's exhortations are not enough to motivate Muslims to conduct acts of terror, we have the words of the late Hassan al-Banna being distributed in our schools and universities. Al-Banna makes it quite clear that the word "jihad" means armed conflict. He mocks those who claim jihad is merely an internal struggle.

Al-Banna says this redefinition of the term "jihad" is a conspiracy so that "Muslims should become negligent."

And here is what Syed Qutb, another Egyptian stalwart of the Islamist movement and the Muslim Brotherhood, writes in his seminal work on Islam and its relationship with the West, Milestones:

    "A Muslim will remain prepared to fight against it (non-Muslim country), whether it be his birthplace or a place where his relatives reside or where his property or any other material interests are located."

Unless the leaders of Canadian and American mosques as well as the Islamic organizations denounce the doctrine of jihad as pronounced by the Muslim Brotherhood and Jamaat-e-Islami, and distance themselves from the ideology of Qutb, al-Banna and Maudoodi, they stand complicit in the havoc that these jihadis are raining down on the rest of us.

For those who search for the root cause of Islamist terrorism, it's the doctrine of jihad, stupid.

Subject: RE: BS: Explosions at Boston Marathon
From: Lighter
Date: 24 Apr 13 - 07:51 AM

> it's the doctrine of jihad, stupid.

He means "a radical fundamentalist interpretation of the doctrine of jihad, stupid."

"Jihad" in Arabic means "struggle." Even in English, the word "struggle" can cover anything from an inner quest to World War III. "Kampf" in German can mean a personal "struggle" or it can mean "combat" or "battle."

Same with "jihad." Not quite the same, but consider the meanings of "crusade" in English. If I call for a "crusade against drug use," I'm not thinking about raising armies and only a lunatic would assume I was.

In modern Islam - the kind practiced, for example, by the Tsarnaevs' uncle who told CNN that the bombers "have no right to exist on this earth" - "jihad" simply means an inner struggle to become more spiritual. Incredibly, he even used the word that way in the CNN interview.

Unfortunately there are also dangerous fundamentalists who choose to interpret the word in the most violent way.

It all depends on who's using it and why.

Subject: RE: BS: Explosions at Boston Marathon
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 24 Apr 13 - 08:03 AM

Perhaps it might be better to employ instead the term 'holy warriors', since that would embrace the whole range, including those who focus their attentions on other varieties Chritianity and Iskam etc,

Subject: RE: BS: Explosions at Boston Marathon
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 24 Apr 13 - 08:10 AM

Unholy murderers?

Subject: RE: BS: Explosions at Boston Marathon
From: Don Firth
Date: 24 Apr 13 - 04:23 PM

On my local University of Washington based NPR affiliate, a local interviewer (Steve Scher) often hosts a discussion with "The Three Amigos," an ecumenical trio consisting of a Christian minister, a Jewish rabbi, and a Muslim imam. These discussions are always friendly and very enlightening, and draw on what these three religions—going back to the basic texts of each religion—actually say. This more than amply demonstrates that they are in agreement on almost everything, except for extraneous and unimportant details.

Most interesting!

The iman said that the word "jihad" means "struggle." AND, that this is grossly misinterpreted by many militant Muslims as "holy war." "It is NOT 'holy war,'" said the imam. "'Jihad' means one's inner struggle."

There is also the admonition in the Koran that if one kills one person, it is the same as killing ALL people. In short, "Thou shalt not kill."

This will get up the noses of the militant anti-religion folks here, but the atrocities committed by various religions spring, not from the precepts of the religion itself, but from the political motives of the adherents to that religion, trying to twist the religion to justify their heinous wishes.

Where did Jesus ever say, "Those who do not believe in everything I say should be burned at the stake!??"

So—what was the religious justification (as enunciated by Jesus) for the Inquisition?

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Explosions at Boston Marathon
From: Lighter
Date: 24 Apr 13 - 05:04 PM

> the religious justification (as enunciated by Jesus) for the Inquisition?

Plenty - but none of it very sensible and none of it enunciated by Jesus.

Of course greed and ambition (called "politics" nowadays) play a role in these things. But let's not overlook the desire to be "holier than thou" and the sad fact that some people get their kicks by making other people suffer.

One out of every 25 or 30 Americans is supposedly a conscienceless psychopath. Most of them abstain from serious crime because they don't want the hassle of going on the lam.

The proportion on other countries ranges from slightly higher to considerably lower. But everywhere are manipulative, unscrupulous individuals who will do just about anything to get their way.

If they want to get to heaven, for example, and believe, like Inquisitors and "holy warriors," that being ultra-zealous will do the trick, they'll stop at nothing.

Of course, some psychos just get a thrill out of destroying, and if a respected authority says it's cool, they'll be there.

Subject: RE: BS: Explosions at Boston Marathon
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 24 Apr 13 - 05:53 PM

The trouble is that people who quite rightly are nauseated at the notion of placing a bomb in a place where it will kill innocent people will find ways to excuse and justify precisely the same kind of thing when it is done by people acting on their behalf in a way that isn't directly visible to them. It becomes 'a sad necessity', in a higher cause. Which I would imagine how those responsible for the Marathon bombs might have described it.

There was a famous episode where Himmler speaking to SS officers involved in genocide declared that the very fact that what they were doing was repulsive made their actions more noble, since it involved a willingness to sacrifice such human instincts because was necessary for a higher cause.

Subject: RE: BS: Explosions at Boston Marathon
From: Greg F.
Date: 24 Apr 13 - 06:38 PM

oh those Amusing Republicans

Subject: RE: BS: Explosions at Boston Marathon
From: Lighter
Date: 24 Apr 13 - 07:08 PM

Indeed, McGrath, indeed.

I can't believe that Himmler had any conscience whatsoever. But he did know how to manipulate people who may still have had traces.

Funny how Nazi ideology not only attracted psychopaths, it boosted the worst of them right up to the top.

As for "nausea," a small minority of people wouldn't even feel that.

Subject: RE: BS: Explosions at Boston Marathon
From: Ebbie
Date: 24 Apr 13 - 07:09 PM

Himmler refused to watch executions because, as he said, his stomach was sensitive.

Subject: RE: BS: Explosions at Boston Marathon
From: Lighter
Date: 24 Apr 13 - 07:44 PM

According to him.

Subject: RE: BS: Explosions at Boston Marathon
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 25 Apr 13 - 03:13 AM

The trouble is that people who quite rightly are nauseated at the notion of placing a bomb in a place where it will kill innocent people will find ways to excuse and justify precisely the same kind of thing when it is done by people acting on their behalf in a way that isn't directly visible to them. It becomes 'a sad necessity', in a higher cause.

I refute that assertion.
It goes without saying that ordinary, decent Muslim people abhor this crime as much as all other ordinary decent people, even though it was done "on their behalf."

Only fanatical extremists excuse or justify such acts.

I think you should excuse and justify that assertion, with examples, or withdraw it.

Subject: RE: BS: Explosions at Boston Marathon
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 25 Apr 13 - 04:21 AM

I wasn't particularly thinking of Muslims when I wrote that. In fact i'd doubt that more than a tiny handful of Muslims would be likely to see something like the Marathon bombings as being " on their behalf". But many of us find it easy enough to justify appalling acts carried out by our agents in other circumstances.

Subject: RE: BS: Explosions at Boston Marathon
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 25 Apr 13 - 04:32 AM

"excuse and justify precisely the same kind of thing"

"many of us find it easy enough to justify appalling acts"

You can only be speaking for yourself I think.

Subject: RE: BS: Explosions at Boston Marathon
From: Lighter
Date: 25 Apr 13 - 08:22 AM

If he was speaking for himself, could he find the acts "appalling"?

But sometimes acts that would otherwise be appalling are justified, or at least justifiable.

How about killing all those more or less decent Germans, Italians, and Japanese in WW2 to stop the real baddies?

Appalling. Justified. Unfortunately.

(Anyone about to claim that terrorist bombers are no different should read Augustine and Aquinas on "just war theory" and UN Security Council Resolution 1377 before they get back to me.)

Subject: RE: BS: Explosions at Boston Marathon
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 25 Apr 13 - 01:18 PM

Many people in the communities in which we live appear to find it quite acceptable, regrettable, for innocent civilians to be killed for sometimes very dubious reasns by people who are seen as the agents of our community. That has been true in every generation during our history. Generally the closer to our time the killing occurs, and perhaps the further from it geographically, the less difficulty we tend to have in finding the justification.

I'm not arguing that all atrocities are the same or even equvalent. But the jusifications made for them are.

Subject: RE: BS: Explosions at Boston Marathon
From: bobad
Date: 25 Apr 13 - 02:54 PM

NEW YORK — The brothers accused of carrying out the Boston marathon bombings also planned to carry out an attack in Times Square, New York mayor Michael Bloomberg said Thursday.

Bloomberg said the information on the attack had been provided by surviving suspect Dzhokhar Tsarnaev to the Federal Bureau of Investigation (FBI).

It was a "horrific reminder that we remain targets for terrorists," Bloomberg told a press conference.

"Last night we were informed by the FBI that the surviving attacker revealed that New York City was next on their list of targets," Bloomberg said.

"He told the FBI apparently that he and his brother had intended to drive to New York and designate (sic) additional explosives in Times Square."

Tsarnaev and his older brother Tamerlan, who are ethnic Chechens, said they planned to go to New York "to party", according to investigators.

Tamerlan Tsarnaev was killed in a shootout with police four days after the April 15 Boston bombings which killed three people and injured 264.

Dzhokhar Tsarnaev was critically wounded in the hunt to detain him and is now in hospital in Boston.

Subject: RE: BS: Explosions at Boston Marathon
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 25 Apr 13 - 04:03 PM

Having just got home from travels in south-central Europe, I've not read every word in this thread. But at a quick glance, I could see only John Mackenzie bemoaning a certain lack of perspective.

Shortly after the bombs went off, I was tuning into English-language channels in the hope of finding news about an earthquake in China. But as far as UK, Canadian and US newscasters were concerned, there had been no such event. Their whole output, for more than two days, was limited to events in Boston in which three or four people got killed. Say maybe four per cent of America's daily murder quota.

OK, we were all amused to see the whole of Boston terrified into lockdown by a couple of lads armed to the teeth with... pressure-cookers(!), especially amused in Serbia, which is one of the dozens of countries US warplanes have bombed since WW2. And especially those of us who got on with life as normal when 1,000 bombs (many funded from Boston ironically) went off in Belfast between July 1972 and July 1973.

But the remorseless repetition does get tiresome when you're trying to find out about an earthquake and perhaps catch a glimpse of the English Premiership results.

We did admittedly have the further amusement of some law officer declaring that "this terrorist" would have the benefit of US justice. And there were TWO thrilling gun battles. The second was best. According to a police chief, it went on for an hour! It wasn't clear what the targets might have been, and apparently nothing was hit, but then the police chief had already explained that he wanted the suspect taken alive, so I suppose everyone was aiming to miss.

Marshalled against the police crackshots, armed to the teeth, and throwing in stun-grenades for good measure, was... a hapless 19-year-old kid in a flimsy, or at any rate less than armour-plated, boat. He was injured enough that a householder had found him by following his spilt blood, and he was harmless enough that the householder had been able to take a close look at him and yet live to tell the story. So... medals all round for those brave police heroes.

The gunfights were fun, in a farcical kind of way, but the icing on the cake was when the pressure-cookers became WMDs! This is the point at which Tom Lehrer would have had to give up on satire, if Kissinger hadn't already stopped him. No wonder WMDs were not found in Iraq - pressure-cookers simply don't feature in Arabic cuisine.

Oh, and I forgot to mention John Kerry, a Satan-believer apparently, declaring that America had "for this past week been confronting Evil" or words to that effect. That was quite funny too.

Subject: RE: BS: Explosions at Boston Marathon
From: Don Firth
Date: 25 Apr 13 - 04:23 PM

And this incident, Peter, you find amusing?

My my!

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Explosions at Boston Marathon
From: Greg F.
Date: 25 Apr 13 - 04:45 PM

Bloomberg said the information on the attack had been provided by surviving suspect Dzhokhar Tsarnaev.... A

Uh Huh. And they took him at his word?

Or is this just Bloomberg grandstanding like he always does?

Subject: RE: BS: Explosions at Boston Marathon
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 25 Apr 13 - 05:27 PM

The incident was a horror Don, but Peter is right about how it has played.
You could not make it up.

Subject: RE: BS: Explosions at Boston Marathon
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 25 Apr 13 - 10:07 PM

Far from amusing, Don. In fact I'd say the incident was quite shocking in its own little way. However for many of the countries that are reached by US/UK broadcasters but have bigger things to worry about, the hysterical reaction has been non-stop entertainment.

Subject: RE: BS: Explosions at Boston Marathon
From: beardedbruce
Date: 01 May 13 - 12:48 PM

???????


"Boston police take three suspects into custody in bomb case

Classmates of Boston bombing suspect detained: source


By Scott Malone and Svea Herbst-Bayliss
BOSTON | Wed May 1, 2013 12:36pm EDT

(Reuters) - Three additional suspects have been taken into custody in the investigation of last month's deadly bombings at the Boston Marathon, the Boston Police Department and a U.S. law enforcement source said on Wednesday.

Officials last month accused two ethnic Chechen brothers of placing homemade pressure-cooker bombs at the finish line of the marathon on April 15. One died after a gunfight with police three days after the bombing and the other was captured and criminally charged before being sent to a prison hospital to recover from gunshot wounds.

A U.S. law enforcement source said that two of the suspects taken into custody on Wednesday include classmates of the younger brother at the University of Massachusetts in Dartmouth. They are being held by immigration officials for violating the terms of their visas. The source said they are likely to face charges related to obstruction of justice and with making false statements to investigators.

Police are investigating whether the classmates threw away a backpack at Tsarnaev's request after the bombing, which killed three people and injured 264 others. Last week law enforcement officials were seen searching dumps in southeastern Massachusetts.

The third person taken into custody on Wednesday was a U.S. citizen, and all three were being investigated for actions taken after the bombings, the U.S. law enforcement source said.

A Boston police spokeswoman, Katherine Shea, said she had no further details to provide on the suspects after their detention was reported on the department's official Twitter feed. Police said the arrests posed no danger to the public."


http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/05/01/us-usa-explosions-boston-arrests-idUSBRE9400M720130501

Subject: RE: BS: Explosions at Boston Marathon
From: beardedbruce
Date: 01 May 13 - 01:06 PM

BOSTON (AP) — A lawyer says two of the three people newly arrested in the Boston Marathon bombing case are men originally from Kazakhstan who were friendly with the main suspect.

Azamat Tazhayakov (AHZ'-maht tuh-ZAYE'-uh-kov) and Dias Kadyrbayev (DYE'-us kad-uhr-BYE-ev) appeared via video for a visa violation hearing in immigration court in Boston on Wednesday. Boston attorney Linda Cristello represented them and confirmed they now face separate federal charges and have a court appearance this afternoon related to the Boston Marathon bombing.
Advertisement

She says lawyers don't know what the charges are and won't until later. The two have been held in a county jail for more than a week on allegations that they violated their student visas while attending the University of Massachusetts Dartmouth with suspect Dzhokhar Tsarnaev (joh-HAHR' tsahr-NEYE'-ehv), who is originally from Russia.

Cristello did not say who the third suspect was.



http://www.mail.com/news/us/2056094-police-3-custody-boston-bombings.html#.7518-stage-subhero1-1

Subject: RE: BS: Explosions at Boston Marathon
From: bobad
Date: 04 May 13 - 08:50 AM

An Atheist Muslim's Perspective on the 'Root Causes' of Islamist Jihadism and the Politics of Islamophobia

Subject: RE: BS: Explosions at Boston Marathon
From: Greg F.
Date: 04 May 13 - 09:33 AM

Atheist Muslim

Oxymoron

... extremism in any ideology isn't a distortion of that ideology.

Bullshit.

Subject: RE: BS: Explosions at Boston Marathon
From: bobad
Date: 04 May 13 - 09:41 AM

Context from which Greg's selected quote is cherry picked:

I also understand that extremism in any ideology isn't a distortion of that ideology. It is an informed, steadfast adherence to its fundamentals, hence the term "fundamentalism." When you think of a left-wing extremist, do you think of a greedy capitalist? Would you imagine a right-wing extremist to be dedicated to government-funded social welfare programs? The "extremists" and strict followers of the Jain faith, which values the life of every being, including insects, don't kill more than their average co-religionists. Instead, they avoid eating foods stored overnight so as not to kill even the microorganisms that may have collected in the meantime. In a true religion of peace, the "extremists" would be nonviolent pacifists to an extreme (and perhaps annoying) degree, not the opposite

Subject: RE: BS: Explosions at Boston Marathon
From: bobad
Date: 04 May 13 - 10:32 AM

"Atheist Muslim

Oxymoron"

Culturally Muslim but free from the prophet and demon haunted world.

Subject: RE: BS: Explosions at Boston Marathon
From: Greg F.
Date: 04 May 13 - 11:16 AM

Culturally Muslim but free from the prophet and demon haunted world.

Self-contradictory.

Define "Muslim"

Subject: RE: BS: Explosions at Boston Marathon
From: Ebbie
Date: 04 May 13 - 11:20 AM

They say that at the end of Oliver Cromwell's tenure, Englishmen were so outraged with him and his policies that after his body was buried, they dug it up and hanged it.

Shades of: They are evidently finding difficulty in securing burial ground for Tamerlin Tsarnaev.

Subject: RE: BS: Explosions at Boston Marathon
From: bobad
Date: 04 May 13 - 12:48 PM

Greg, I'm an atheist but I partake in some of the ritual celebrations of Christianity such as Christmas and Easter. I don't refer to myself as an atheist Christian but who made you arbiter of what someone want's to call themselves?

Subject: RE: BS: Explosions at Boston Marathon
From: Greg F.
Date: 05 May 13 - 09:36 AM

You can call yourself a bare-arsed baboon, for all I care, Bobad. That don't make it true. (or maybe in this specific case it does?)

So I like falafel and eggplant. Guess in your book that makes me a "Muslim".

Subject: RE: BS: Explosions at Boston Marathon
From: bobad
Date: 05 May 13 - 12:18 PM

What's a 'Cultural Muslim'?

Subject: RE: BS: Explosions at Boston Marathon
From: Greg F.
Date: 05 May 13 - 12:44 PM

Saif Rahman can call himself a bare-arsed babboon, as well. Still doesn't mean its true and/or not oxymoronic.

Hey,I'm fond of corned beef and cabbage. Does that make me an Irish Catholic?

Subject: RE: BS: Explosions at Boston Marathon
From: GUEST
Date: 05 May 13 - 01:21 PM

I'm fond of corned beef and cabbage. Does that make me an Irish Catholic?

No, but it makes it likely you're America. People eat bacon with their cabbage in Ireland.

Subject: RE: BS: Explosions at Boston Marathon
From: Greg F.
Date: 05 May 13 - 04:28 PM

Thank's, Guest - I was aware of that, but since I was speaking to a largely U.S. audience, they wouldn't have understood.

Go raibh maith agat.

Subject: RE: BS: Explosions at Boston Marathon
From: GUEST
Date: 21 Apr 14 - 11:10 PM

Since the actors at last year's Boston Marathon weren't recognized at the recent Academy Awards, let's acknowledge them here:

http://chemtrailsplanet.net/2013/04/18/did-boston-bombing-feature-bad-actors-from-sandy-hook/

They're called "crisis actors." You saw them at Boston and on 9/11 pretending to be injured, giving interviews to clueless reporters about what "really" happened, and so on. There are apparently lots of jobs in Role Player Support Services if you are interested.

Subject: RE: BS: Explosions at Boston Marathon
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 21 Apr 14 - 11:22 PM

Greg F: "Hey,I'm fond of corned beef and cabbage. Does that make me an Irish Catholic?"

No...but how about a Farting Mudcatter?

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Explosions at Boston Marathon
From: GUEST,sheesh
Date: 21 Apr 14 - 11:59 PM

Two absolutely useless posts.
Piss off the both of you.

Subject: RE: BS: Explosions at Boston Marathon
From: GUEST
Date: 22 Apr 14 - 06:53 PM

It seems the feds are going to stage someting in Charleston, South Carolina now. They've just put out a call for 25 al-Qaeda role-players, to be paid to "perform" in Charleston.

Solicitation Number:
h92257-14-q-0068 Notice Type:
Award Notice Contract Award Date:
April 17, 2014
Contract Award Number:
H9225714P0084
Contract Award Dollar Amount:
$58,573
Contractor Awarded Name:
BKM GLOBAL
Contracting Office Address:
Building H-1, Floor 1GS
Camp Lejeune, North Carolina 28542
United States

Place of Performance:
IVO
Charleston, South Carolina 29401
United States

Primary Point of Contact.:
Will Watts,
MSgt
[e-mail]
Phone: [phone]

https://www.fbo.gov/index?s=opportunity&mode=form&id=b20876a230a40e34901e7115ed4a2f15&tab=core&tabmode=list&=

These "performances" often coincide with "terrorist attacks." During the Marathon bombing the Department of Homeland Security was staging a drill simulating...a Marathon bombing. On 9/11 the Pentagon was running a drill of planes flying into the Twin Towers. These role-players are used to lend an air of authenticity to the "performance." I wonder what they think when the drill goes live?

Some more on crisis actors. They hired a bunch of actors for the Sandy Hook school shooting:

http://memoryholeblog.com/2013/04/11/crisis-actors-at-sandy-hook/