BS: Dr Andrew Wakefield

Subject: RE: BS: Dr Andrew Wakefield
From: GUEST,Johnny J.
Date: 22 Apr 13 - 01:51 PM

Sometimes people do themselves no favours. As I said on another thread, this is, Liz, a route you shouldn't go down. Leave it out.

Subject: RE: BS: Dr Andrew Wakefield
From: Greg F.
Date: 21 Apr 13 - 09:21 PM

There IS no "real epidemic of autism". So its easily ignored.

Subject: RE: BS: Dr Andrew Wakefield
From: Acorn4
Date: 21 Apr 13 - 07:36 PM

I'm wondering how many of the posters on here have actually listened to the Youtube video put up at the beginning.

Basically we are getting hysterical about a possible epidemic of measles, yet ignoring a real epidemic of autism.

Subject: RE: BS: Dr Andrew Wakefield
From: Greg F.
Date: 21 Apr 13 - 06:45 PM

Liz, do you really believe the absolute rubbish you spout? What have Rolf Harris' perversions got to do with autism - or is he just your latest ridiculous campaign? Have you set up a FarceBook page? What do you use for your instant Autism diagnosis program? Tea leaves? Tarot Cards? You can believe supermarket women instead of physicians and scientists if you want to- I'll pass.

Should you wish people to think you know what you're talking about that last postng is pretty counterproductive, Liz.

Subject: RE: BS: Dr Andrew Wakefield
From: GUEST,Musket sans reality check
Date: 21 Apr 13 - 06:01 PM

I wonder how they got their rocks off before the Internet?

Subject: RE: BS: Dr Andrew Wakefield
From: GUEST,Jack Sprocket
Date: 21 Apr 13 - 06:01 PM

"as most of you think I talk out my arse"

No, Lizzie, we don't think you're that good.

Subject: RE: BS: Dr Andrew Wakefield
From: GUEST,Lizzie Cornish
Date: 21 Apr 13 - 05:53 PM

Ah well, according to some folks on here, I know nothing about Autism, nor do I have ANY right whatsoever to talk about it. I know a vast amount about it and I can pretty much tell you in an instant those who have it too, no matter what part of the Circle they're on..I know because it's in my family and in those of my friends too...

However, The Suppression Goblins will be out shortly....

I'm busy organzing a petition to bring in a new law, actually, Greg, to stop people from being named when any Tom, Dick or Harriet decides to hurl accusations at them decades down the line, such as Rolf Harris is enduring at present. It's tearing him apart and it's so wrong that those who make these accusations are given total anonymity whilst those who are so often innocent, are sent to hell, through no fault of their own...

As to Dr. Wakefield, they did a Curtains Job on him. You mess with The Big Boys, you pay the price...

Michael Jackson did it too.....and look where he ended up....

Autism is CONTINUING to increase rapidly...and that is NOT due to more and more cases being diagnosed, it's simply due to More And More CASES!

THREE OUT OF FOUR GRANDCHILDREN IS NOT NORMAL!

And if you don't believe me, you can speak to the lady yourself, for she works in M&S in Torquay, food department, don't know her name, but just ask for the lady with 3 out of 4 grandchildren who have autism, and you'll find her...

Jim Carey was the partner of a woman whose son has autism...He did much Raising Awareness with her and you'll find them both on Youtube. They are no longer together..I'd find it for you, but hey, as most of you think I talk out my arse, YOU find it yourselves..

Subject: RE: BS: Dr Andrew Wakefield
From: Fossil
Date: 21 Apr 13 - 05:44 PM

Lizzie, not in any way putting down your own experiences, but you have to remember the medical statisticians mantra: "... a sample of one proves NOTHING!". That's why medical journals (usually) require high standards of proof, statistically validated, before they will accept articles.

Individual cases can be reported, but with the strong qualification that they are just that, observations, not proof.

Subject: RE: BS: Dr Andrew Wakefield
From: GUEST,Jack Sprocket
Date: 21 Apr 13 - 05:44 PM

"Autism was not recognized as a separate disorder until the early 80s."

bobad: You'rr confusing autism (named in 1910: a dread secret in my youth) with Asperger's Syndrome, which most of us (or at least me) are part of.

Ms Cornish: I don't know what to say about you, apart from that you're a born romancer.

Subject: RE: BS: Dr Andrew Wakefield
From: Greg F.
Date: 21 Apr 13 - 04:48 PM

You're not serious, Acorn? Or is it you just can't read?

Subject: RE: BS: Dr Andrew Wakefield
From: Acorn4
Date: 21 Apr 13 - 02:20 PM

So is it half-truths and utter nonsense for Lizzie to describe what happened to her own son or the lady at the check-out?

Subject: RE: BS: Dr Andrew Wakefield
From: Greg F.
Date: 21 Apr 13 - 01:46 PM

I was wondering how long it would take for Saint Liz to spring out of the woodwork to disseminate her usual half-truths, utter nonsense and wishful thinking on this issue.

I'm a bit disappointed that it took her over 72 hours. She must be devoting much more time to eliminating all the world's evils via FarceBook these days.

I was heartened, however, to see that she's sticking to the same line of bullshit she always has, and thus gets points for consistency.

Subject: RE: BS: Dr Andrew Wakefield
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 21 Apr 13 - 01:13 PM

Watergate was not a conspiracy theory, it was an actual conspiracy.

You can tell one from the other by the quality of the evidence presented.

Subject: RE: BS: Dr Andrew Wakefield
From: Acorn4
Date: 21 Apr 13 - 12:46 PM

...oh, and not to forget Watergate of course!

Subject: RE: BS: Dr Andrew Wakefield
From: Acorn4
Date: 21 Apr 13 - 12:45 PM

Conspiracy theories are sometimes proved correct - Hillsborough, Bloody Sunday, Jimmy Saville, phone hacking, horsemeat...

Subject: RE: BS: Dr Andrew Wakefield
From: GUEST,Musket sans cookie
Date: 21 Apr 13 - 12:36 PM

I thought the dizzy conspiracy theorist said she was going to stop posting on Mudcat?

Subject: RE: BS: Dr Andrew Wakefield
From: bobad
Date: 21 Apr 13 - 11:27 AM

"I don't think anyone has stated that MMR is the ONLY cause of autism"

There was one person who stated that MMR vaccine was the cause of autism and he has been exposed as a fraud. Despite all the follow up research no link between MMR and autism has been established.

Subject: RE: BS: Dr Andrew Wakefield
From: Acorn4
Date: 21 Apr 13 - 11:17 AM

No, that's true, Eliza, but I don't think anyone has stated that MMR is the ONLY cause of autism - it's a set of behaviours caused by brain damage, which could be due to a number of things.

Subject: RE: BS: Dr Andrew Wakefield
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 21 Apr 13 - 11:10 AM

It's rather similar to the incidence of dyslexia. When I began teaching, the word was unknown, but I did come across pupils with typical dyslexic-type reading problems. Much later in my career, we heard about research and findings, whereupon many, many pupils were found to be dyslexic. I don't think the causes of dyslexia have yet been ascertained, and I doubt whether the incidence of it has increased over the years, merely more accurate diagnosis. I did know two children in my local area (when I was a child myself) who in hindsight appeared to be severely autistic. They both went to a special 'unit' each day, but lived at home and we often saw them outside with their parents, (two different families.) Of course, the triple vaccine was unknown then, so it could not have caused these two to be affected.

Subject: RE: BS: Dr Andrew Wakefield
From: bobad
Date: 21 Apr 13 - 07:55 AM

"Fifty years ago, autism usually meant institutionalisation "

Autism was not recognized as a separate disorder until the early 80s. That is most likely one of the reasons for what appears to be a sharp rise in incidence.

Subject: RE: BS: Dr Andrew Wakefield
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 21 Apr 13 - 07:47 AM

Jim Carey is most famous for talking out of his arse.


Julian Assange gave away government property as if it were his own. He made himself a target because of his ego then he did stupid things because of his ego.

Subject: RE: BS: Dr Andrew Wakefield
From: GUEST,Lizzie Cornish
Date: 21 Apr 13 - 07:38 AM

"...Wakefield's research has been thoroughly discredited. It does him no credit that despite this and despite his being struck off he continues to perpetuate his phoney views..."

Yes, they did this to Julian Assange too. You fuck with The Big Boys, the Corporate Sociopaths and they will dismember you, limb by limb...

I had Measles, Whooping Cough and German Measles as a child. Not had mumps (yet) Most children I knew had these childhood diseases...I knew no-one who suffered any long-term effects from them, nor did my family or the families of my friends know anyone either.

I also knew no-one who had autism. We didn't even know what it was. I now know MANY people who have autism, including the children and grandchildren of some of my friends.

Just the other day, whilst getting some food, I was talking to the lady in the shop about her computer till, which was driving her nuts as she struggled to understand it...and we got talking about the Asperger mind which is so often behind many computer programmes these days...how easy it is for them to understand such things in an instant, whilst so many others struggle and struggle...

She looked sad for a moment, then said she agreed with me when I said how on the increase Autism now is...THEN she told me that THREE out of her four grandchildren are on the Circle of Autism...

3 out of 4

My own son had a terrible reaction to his first MMR jab. He never had the follow ups...

We are putting GROSS amounts of vaccines into the bodies of tiny little people...Jim Carey was saying that America has MORE vaccines than anywhere else in the world..

"Every 20 minutes a child is diagnosed with Autism" - thus spake the billboards of America three years back when I was over there, everywhere you looked around New York City, there were those words....

Ticktockticktock....

And of course they'd never agree with Dr. Wakefield, for if it WERE proven that vaccines caused autism, (amongst other causes, such as genetics) then the legal claims would bankrupt governments and corporations alike...

The Measles 'epidemic' was used to divert attention from around £10feckingMILLION being spent on ONE person's funeral whilst many in the UK are about to lose their homes, their Will to Live..

There is NOT an 'epidemic' in reality, just some cases in specific areas, same as there always used to be...

There IS, however, an Epidemic Of Autism, but the governments and Corporate Medical Sociopaths ain't interested in THAT in ANY WAY WHATSOEVER...

Possibly it might be a good idea to ask "Why?"

Subject: RE: BS: Dr Andrew Wakefield
From: GUEST,Jack Sprocket
Date: 21 Apr 13 - 05:28 AM

According to a Wikipedia entry, "A 2004 study found that the reported incidence of pervasive developmental disorders in a general practice research database in England and Wales grew steadily during 1988–2001 from 0.11 to 2.98 per 10,000 person-years"

I know that in at least one case, this is because there are facilities and funding available (in the UK) for children with an autism diagnosis, that are not available for other developmental problems. The child's mother persisted until a doctor gave her the desired diagnosis, and the resulting change in schooling strategy transformed the child's education for the better. Fraudulent but justifiable, given that she didn't invent the rules.

I suspect there are many other such cases. Even without the money, there has been a change in public attitudes to autism (again speaking from a UK angle). Fifty years ago, autism usually meant institutionalisation and the sufferer's name spoken, if at all, in hushed tones. Today it almost has kudos (thanks to Oliver Sacks and Stephen Wiltshire?), at least the status is in the public mind much higher than a person with mere "learning difficulties". Putting a name to a problem can also help to shift the feelings of guilt some parents have. In this case, to the vaccine, thanks to an irresponsible doctor and sensation- seeking and scientifically- illiterate press (including, disgracefully, Private Eye).

Subject: RE: BS: Dr Andrew Wakefield
From: GUEST,Musket sans Ian
Date: 21 Apr 13 - 04:57 AM

Flecking auto complete. ...

Subject: RE: BS: Dr Andrew Wakefield
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 21 Apr 13 - 04:10 AM

flouted.

Subject: RE: BS: Dr Andrew Wakefield
From: GUEST,Musket sans cookie
Date: 21 Apr 13 - 03:12 AM

Its rare that I do Fossil!

Although the thought of parents having doubts about prevention of diseases that should be consigned to the history books is worrying. I have no argument with acorn4 and fully accept that experience brings a sharp focus to your desire to find answers. But the fact remains and quoting from a 1959 BMJ article without referencing more contemporary research in the same journal does seem odd.

The rules for published research in The UK are very draconian and Wakefield flaunted them with disastrous results.

Subject: RE: BS: Dr Andrew Wakefield
From: Fossil
Date: 20 Apr 13 - 09:14 PM

Musket, never let the facts stand in the way of a good rant!

I won't bore 'catters with chapter and verse - it's all there for the taking at great length on Wikipedia anyway. Just to summarise: Wakefield was taking money (large, very large amounts of it) from a commercial interest which was marketing a competitor product to the MMR vaccine and which had a vested interest in getting MMR off the market. To advance the hypothesis that it caused autism, Wakefield did a lot of very, very dodgy research during which he put numerous children at risk (he was struck off the medical register for it), falsified results, incorrectly controlled his trials and published these results in respected medical journals. Read the reports if you don't believe me.

The hypothesis that MMR causes autism is still around, but there is no (as in none, zilch, nada) evidence to support it. And no-one has yet been able to evidentially prove any causative link between autism and any other factor, environmental, food, medicine or whatever.

Not to say that there aren't stll people out there loudly and shrilly declaiming that they have such proof and its all a Big Business conspiracy to shut them up. Some are dodgy doctors, some have other varieties of professional qualifications, but none of them seem to have much, if any grasp of statistical theory applied to epedemiology.

Subject: RE: BS: Dr Andrew Wakefield
From: Greg F.
Date: 20 Apr 13 - 08:17 PM

Regrettably "correlation does not indicate causation" was the mantra of the tobacco companies for decades.

Yes, it was. Is Acorn4 a tobacco company?

Subject: RE: BS: Dr Andrew Wakefield
From: Acorn4
Date: 20 Apr 13 - 05:42 PM

Just found this which is interesting reading:-

Measles Epidemic

Taken from: BMJ, Feb 7 1959, page 354

In the first three weeks of this year about 41,000 cases of measles were recorded in England and Wales. This is well above the corresponding figures of the last two years-namely, about 9,000 in 1958 and 28,000 in 1957 -though it is below the highest levels reached in the last nine years. To give some idea of the main features of the disease as it appears to-day and of how it is best treated, we invited some general practitioners to write short reports on the cases they have seen in their practices recently.

These appear at p.380 (extracts from this page follow this article). It is interesting to note, first, that the distribution of the disease is rather patchy at present. It has not yet reached the areas where two of these doctors practise (in South Scotland and Cornwall), and other areas are known to be free of the disease so far. On the other hand, in Kent it is reported to have arrived in time to put the children to bed over Christmas. These writers agree that measles is nowadays normally a mild infection, and they rarely have occasion to give prophylactic gamma globulin. As to the treatment of the disease and its complications, the emphasis naturally varies from one practice to another. Amount of bed-rest, when to administer a sulphonamide or antibiotic, the use of analgesics and linctuses-all these may still be debatable problems in the treatment of what is said to be the commonest disease in the world. But there is probably much in the opinion which one of the writers expresses: "It is the frequent visiting by the interested clinician and not the therapy which produces the good results."

Subject: RE: BS: Dr Andrew Wakefield
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 20 Apr 13 - 05:40 PM

Regrettably "correlation does not indicate causation" was the mantra of the tobacco companies for decades.

Subject: RE: BS: Dr Andrew Wakefield
From: Greg F.
Date: 20 Apr 13 - 05:19 PM

Possibly vaccines can cause these diseases to mutate?

Possibly autism is the result of alien abduction of infants and the horrible tests perfotrmed upon them on board of spaceships.

The epidemic is because of a spike in the numnber of alien abductions of infants.

When my son developed autism shortly after having the MMR jab...

Repeat after me: Correlation does not imply causation, Correlation does not imply causation, Correlation does not imply causation, Correlation does not imply causation...............

Subject: RE: BS: Dr Andrew Wakefield
From: Acorn4
Date: 20 Apr 13 - 05:08 PM

I'd perhaps like to pose the question at this time why we have had an autism epidemic over the past few years, but perhaps it should be on a different thread - the government of the UK has actually passed an "Autism Act" perhaps indicating the scale of the problem.

When my son developed autism shortly after having the MMR jab, we were able to investigate the information for the batch of the vaccine used - it included half a dozen hospitalised children and one death. My son was 6 weeks premature so should he have perhaps not been given the triple vaccine?

Subject: RE: BS: Dr Andrew Wakefield
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 20 Apr 13 - 04:38 PM

>>From: Acorn4 - PM
Date: 20 Apr 13 - 04:21 PM

Possibly vaccines can cause these diseases to mutate? <<

Much less likely than measles parties would. In vaccines are multiple copies of the same non-virulent variety. Measles parties spread active strains, under uncontrolled conditions.

Subject: RE: BS: Dr Andrew Wakefield
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 20 Apr 13 - 04:32 PM

"Those who cite thalidomide as a good reason for permanent suspicion of Big Pharma are ignoring two important facts."

Well its a good thing that no one did that. It was cited as an indication that the medical profession has a track record that is not perfect. It is a good question to ask your Dr. questions like "how long has this been on the market?"

Subject: RE: BS: Dr Andrew Wakefield
From: Acorn4
Date: 20 Apr 13 - 04:21 PM

Possibly vaccines can cause these diseases to mutate?

Subject: RE: BS: Dr Andrew Wakefield
From: GUEST,Musket sans cookie
Date: 20 Apr 13 - 10:18 AM

Chicken pox parties were the most popular.

Measles like any condition can and will mutate. I am no expert on the matter but an article in last week's British Medical Journal explains the dangers.

Subject: RE: BS: Dr Andrew Wakefield
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 20 Apr 13 - 09:30 AM

Three points - many cases of autism present at just the age children are given these multiple vaccines, even in children who have NOT been vaccinated. It would seem that autism can develop like this in a previously normal child, almost spontaneously, whether or not he/she has been vaccinated. So there is not necessarily any link to the jabs.
Secondly, if the general population are worried about three vaccines at once into a small infant, why has the Government refused point blank to allow single vaccination? I can't see why they've dug their heels in. At least it would have reduced the numbers at risk of serious measles complications in this epidemic.
Thirdly, in the late forties and early fifties, we nearly all got measles. In fact, mothers held 'measles parties' to ensure all their children contracted the disease. I never heard of any serious complications. No doubt there were, but not to any worrying extent.

Subject: RE: BS: Dr Andrew Wakefield
From: Charmion
Date: 20 Apr 13 - 09:28 AM

Those who cite thalidomide as a good reason for permanent suspicion of Big Pharma are ignoring two important facts.

First, thalidomide was a comparatively new drug whose effects in pregnancy were neither known nor anticipated. When its teratogenic capabilities were realized, it was immedately withdrawn. The MMR combination inoculation has a track record of decades of widespread use -- by which I mean literally millions of doses given all over the world -- with no adverse incidents reported.

Second, the medical and pharmaceutical industries, and the government agencies that regulate them, learned important lessons from the thalidomide tragedy. The drug-approval regime we have today, which people often criticize for the many stages of review and testing required before a new drug is turned loose on the public, is to a large extent the result of that learning.

Of course, for Big Pharma, that's just good business. No business can thrive if its customers don't trust it.

Subject: RE: BS: Dr Andrew Wakefield
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 20 Apr 13 - 09:09 AM

Yeah, pharma companies CAN be crooked. Yeah there were scandals in Britain. But MMR is used all over the world and a lot of less scandal prone governments have approved it. You could also ask your Doctor.

Subject: RE: BS: Dr Andrew Wakefield
From: GUEST,Musket sans cookie
Date: 20 Apr 13 - 07:57 AM

The pharmaceutical industry has many skeletons in the cupboard. Don't make the mental leap that therefore Dr Wakefield didn't falsify findings to support a hypothesis. It had nothing to do with anything.

Out of interest MMR is cheaper than new non generic solutions for the individual conditions. The industry would be better served by not having the MMR cocktail.

Subject: RE: BS: Dr Andrew Wakefield
From: Fossil
Date: 20 Apr 13 - 07:42 AM

Acorn4, I have never heard of or read of diptheria being treated by putting a red-hot poker down the throat. Such a procedure would probably kill off the patient/victim anyway due to the swelling of the airway walls which would be caused by the trauma of such a procedure.

I suspect that your granddad was himself conflating the old procedure of cauterisation of an open wound with red-hot iron - itself an effective, if very painful way of disinfecting and closing an injury - with clearing the airway. Certainly the procedure would have absolutely no effect on the diptheria bacterium. The process of intubation to allow breathing was well known in the late nineteenth century and it was probably some notion of this he was referring to.

I would anyway be grateful for any reliable references to this.

Bad science cited as support for wacky beliefs is widespread in almost every walk of life and medical/pharmaceutical science is no exception. But (and it's a *big* "but"), there are a lot (probably a majority) of honest scientists around and the truth usually gets out eventually. As it did with Wakefield, who was proven to have distorted, ignored, lied about or just made up medical evidence in order to support his autism-MMR theory.

The fact that this theory has survived even Wakefield's exposure shows how pervasive these things can be.

Subject: RE: BS: Dr Andrew Wakefield
From: Acorn4
Date: 20 Apr 13 - 07:22 AM

In Britain recently we've had cover up scandals over "Bloody Sunday" and Hillsborough, a phone hacking scandal involving prominent newspapers, high up dignitaries rumoured to be linked to the Jimmy Saville paedophile scandal, and the food industry under the microscope due to passing off horsemeat as beef.

Can anyone convince me please that the pharmaceutical industry is squeaky clean and not motivated principally by profit, and there are no skeletons lurking in the medicine cabinet?

Subject: RE: BS: Dr Andrew Wakefield
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 20 Apr 13 - 05:31 AM

I only worked in public health for a couple of University terms. No doubt Musket knows more.

I think his top down view is good.

But from the parents point of view it is not cut and dried. A parent need only look a thalidomide baby to see that the medical professional is not infallible.

It is prudent to get all the facts not just to base your actions on hysterical media reports.

A parent at that time had access to information that separate shots for Measles Mumps and Rubella had no link to autism, not even a coincidental perceived risk. They could have asked for them separately and if necessary paid out of pocket. Instead they chose no shot and now their kids have measles. Which I guess is fine if they can live with the risks. But they did put others at risk. They have no room to complain about it now.

Subject: RE: BS: Dr Andrew Wakefield
From: GUEST,Musket sans cookie
Date: 20 Apr 13 - 03:58 AM

To agree with Jack the sailor I may add-

But promoting discredited research can be a pitfall as there are always those who would seize upon it as vindication of their own doubts. We all want answers and parents of autistic children could mistakenly cling onto such things. Hence they need to be dismissed clearly strongly and with transparent justification. Ad was the case here. GMC discharged their duties and the media muddied the waters to sell tomorrow's chip wrappers. The measles cluster is according to the local director for public health a clear result of low take up of MMR despite the evidence.

The desire to be cynical of anything a government promotes isn't always a good idea. ..

Subject: RE: BS: Dr Andrew Wakefield
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 20 Apr 13 - 02:13 AM

"So are you saying they are lying, Greg? Don't quite get the point here. "

I don't think that you are lying, I don't think you are deluded. I don't see anything wrong with questioning the science as long as you are looking soberly at the risks/benefits.

Subject: RE: BS: Dr Andrew Wakefield
From: Greg F.
Date: 19 Apr 13 - 08:25 PM

So are you saying they are lying, Greg?

No, I'm saying they're deluded and wilfully ignorant of the real facts of the matter. And - like all the "anti-vaccination" loonies, they're dangerous.

Subject: RE: BS: Dr Andrew Wakefield
From: GUEST,Spleen Cringe
Date: 19 Apr 13 - 07:51 PM

No of course they're not lying. They've been misled by charlatans.

Google "Dr Michael Fitzpatrick MMR Autism". Michael is a GP with an autistic son who has written extensively on this issue. I suspect after reading a few of his articles, Wakefield's bullshit industry will start to leave a nasty taste in the mouth.

The other good thing about Dr Fitzpatrick is that unlike "Dr" Wakefield, he is a believer in evidence based science.

Subject: RE: BS: Dr Andrew Wakefield
From: Acorn4
Date: 19 Apr 13 - 07:45 PM

So are you saying they are lying, Greg? Don't quite get the point here.

Subject: RE: BS: Dr Andrew Wakefield
From: Greg F.
Date: 19 Apr 13 - 04:22 PM

So how many parents maintain that their children became autistic directly after receiving the MMR jab?

Way too goddamn many.

Subject: RE: BS: Dr Andrew Wakefield
From: greg stephens
Date: 19 Apr 13 - 03:59 PM

Fascinated that diphtheria was treated by putting a red hot poker down the throat, Acorn4. I would have thought that was rather dangerous, though obviously I am niot a medical man.