BS: Dr Andrew Wakefield

Subject: RE: BS: Dr Andrew Wakefield
From: Charmion
Date: 19 Apr 13 - 03:39 PM

Like Jeri, I had red measles at the traditionally appropriate age -- eight in my case -- and was very seriously ill, possibly because it hit me less than a month after whooping cough. (That was a hell of a year.)

That was the year Gamma globulin became available in Canada, and the local doctor was in our kitchen the day after I was diagnosed to inoculate our Dad, who had never had measles and was well over 40, and both my brothers. The doctor was no-duff serious that the disease could easily kill Dad, and the boys should be inoculated to spare them a disease that was well known to leave kids deaf, blind or both. They all got sick for about three days; I was in bed in a darkened room for weeks.

Dr Wakefield has done a great disservice to many people, not only those who now think it better to subject their kids (and anyone who comes into contact with their kids) to measles, mumps and rubella than to inoculate them, but also to those who believe they know why their autistic kids came to be that way.

Subject: RE: BS: Dr Andrew Wakefield
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 19 Apr 13 - 02:52 PM

Hmmmmm,

Acorn4, Medicine is not a certainty. Public health is a matter of statistics and tradeoffs. Jeri almost died from measles, it was an inconvenience and a couple of unpleasant days off school for me.

The bureaucrats in the Dept of Health look at the odds of dying or permanent injury vs the cost and side effects of vaccine and make a decision. It is not a cut and dry choice.

I also not a Dr. But a few years ago I participated in an online depate about this and someone pointed out that the MMR shot is given about the same time that kids start to talk. So that if a kid doesn't start talking the parents go back to the last memorable event and blame it on the shots.

Getting back to my question about whether kids without the shot get autism anyway.   I think that your logic was a little flawed when you said there are other causes of autism.   The public health approach would be to compare the number of instances of children with and without the shots, with an without the symptoms to see if there is a correlation. To my knowledge there is no statistical correlation between Autism and MMR shots.

As to the Blairs, I don't see the correlation there either.

Subject: RE: BS: Dr Andrew Wakefield
From: Acorn4
Date: 19 Apr 13 - 02:42 PM

Quite a lot of parents maintain their children became autistic after the MMR jab which is why Dr Wakefield started the research. If the MMR jab didn't cause this change in up until then normal children, what did?

There is also a theory of a preservative containing mercury used in some batches of the vaccine.

Should we not be trying to find out what are the factors if it isn't the MMR jab?

Subject: RE: BS: Dr Andrew Wakefield
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 19 Apr 13 - 02:31 PM

Jeri, your last sentence could fit an awful lot of shitheads. Like the NRA for instance?

Subject: RE: BS: Dr Andrew Wakefield
From: GUEST,Musket sans cookie
Date: 19 Apr 13 - 02:26 PM

It might sell newspapers or increase TV ratings to give credence to irresponsibility but MMR saves children. The findings of Dr Wakefield were not conducted to a level that can he used in The UK and with every respect to 20 year ols researchers and air head presenters, The General Medical Council carried out their duties and the commercial driven health agenda of Texas is a far more appropriate place for him to excel. Other than The New England Journal of Medicine, scientific reasoning can take second place to commercial interest.

Wakefield was wrong. MMR if not used is gross irresponsibility in the face of facts . Not opinions. Facts.

Subject: RE: BS: Dr Andrew Wakefield
From: GUEST,CS
Date: 19 Apr 13 - 02:20 PM

So how many parents maintain that their children became autistic directly after receiving the MMR jab? I must confess to knowing pretty much nothing about this matter, though I do remember having measles and it making me hot and itchy, so the media excitement about it all seems bit perplexing.

Subject: RE: BS: Dr Andrew Wakefield
From: Jeri
Date: 19 Apr 13 - 02:20 PM

I had the measles at the usual childhood age, and I almost died.

The MMR-autism link is a crock of shit. It's been disproven everywhere except in the minds of believers in bullshit. This belief in bullshit will continue to kill children.

It does no good to try to enlighten people who are dedicated to believing lie, because a fundamental basis of debate is being able to recognize truth when it hits you in the face. If you talk to someone thinking they honor truth while their passing on a load of bull, you're just going to get frustrated. Not worth it.

Subject: RE: BS: Dr Andrew Wakefield
From: Acorn4
Date: 19 Apr 13 - 02:13 PM

...but then as I said, most of us would be baffled by the science!

Subject: RE: BS: Dr Andrew Wakefield
From: GUEST,Spleen Cringe
Date: 19 Apr 13 - 01:52 PM

I don't think it's about stifling debate. It's about one man doing some dodgy research, the media running riot with it and a shitload of people getting scared. To echo another thread, Wakefield doesn't have the grace to admit he was wrong even when the evidence says he was and continues to perpetuate his views with the support of a small but vocal minority of parents of autistic children.

The final chapters of Ben Goldacre's excellent Bad Science are about the MMR scandal. They make for very interesting reading. Goldacre, of course, is an advocate for evidence based science.

Subject: RE: BS: Dr Andrew Wakefield
From: Greg F.
Date: 19 Apr 13 - 01:52 PM

Many parents of autistic kids KNOW that it happened after the MMR jab.

If by IT you are claiming a causal relationshipno, they absolutely do NOT "know". They fantasize.

Just like all the other idiot irresponsible parents that won't vaccinate their kids for ANY disease.

Subject: RE: BS: Dr Andrew Wakefield
From: Acorn4
Date: 19 Apr 13 - 01:51 PM

When I was young my grandfather told me the story of when his family were infected by diphtheria - this was a disease that killed by swelling up the windpipe so that the victim literally suffocated. My granddad was cured by the only way people know how at the time - a red hot poker down the throat to burn out the infection. I remember him telling of his younger brother who was too young to have this done and his mother holding him up to an open window in a vain attempt to get air before he died. This was a terrible disease which innoculation has virtually eliminated. I am not against vaccinations.

When I was young myself, measles was just something that you got, you were poorly for a time and then got over, having lifelong immunity. It did not create fear among communities and there were even "measles parties". Having said that, there can be complications as with any disease and most people would probably have no problem with a single measles jab.

I've just heard the tragic news that someone has possibly died of measles in Wales - he was 24, so if this is the case it is long after when he should have had this childhood illness. All these illnesses are serious when contacted when out of childhood. He may even have had the MMR jab - we don't know yet.

This issue needs a serious debate

Subject: RE: BS: Dr Andrew Wakefield
From: Acorn4
Date: 19 Apr 13 - 01:39 PM

Autism is actually a set of behaviours which may have more than one cause, just like, for instance, jaundice can be a symptom of a number of things.

I'm not saying that I necessarily have the knowledge to fully agree or disagree with Dr Wakefield; after all, I'm not a medical scientist ( but neither is Tony Blair!) - I'm just worried about the stifling of debate which makes me very suspicious.

"Bloody Sunday" and Hillsborough have only recently had the true story told due to cover-ups by vested interests.

Subject: RE: BS: Dr Andrew Wakefield
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 19 Apr 13 - 01:24 PM

Silly

Subject: RE: BS: Dr Andrew Wakefield
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 19 Apr 13 - 01:18 PM

"Many parents of autistic kids KNOW that it happened after the MMR jab."

Parents know that they detected it then. They don't know that the inoculation was the cause.

Here is an interesting question has any child NOT had the shot and still developed autism?

Subject: RE: BS: Dr Andrew Wakefield
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 19 Apr 13 - 12:56 PM

I guess it is relevant if you personally blame the Blairs for everything that has gone wrong in the past 20 years. Was Cherie Blair the Minister of Health by any chance?

Pointing out Mrs. Blairs character flaws is not going to help those children and the parents of kids with measles today had a choice did they not? Run the risk of autism Dr Andrew Wakefield described or run the higher risk of measles without the MMR shot.

People have to be responsible for their decisions. Don't they. They don't have the Blairs to blame. So I guess it id Cameron's turn now?

Subject: RE: BS: Dr Andrew Wakefield
From: Acorn4
Date: 19 Apr 13 - 12:55 PM

I think if you listen to the whole video you'll find some points that need answers. Many parents of autistic kids KNOW that it happened after the MMR jab and until someone suggests an alternative explanation will remain unconvinced by the received opinion.

Subject: RE: BS: Dr Andrew Wakefield
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 19 Apr 13 - 12:37 PM

If knowing about a jab is personal business, WTF is screwing?

The first sentence is cogent, while succeeding one is for comparison, and questions the validity of the first.
That's why it's useful. It points out the hypocrisy of their statement.
Now Jack, I know you're a Canadian living in the US, but even there you must have heard of Tony B Liar?

Subject: RE: BS: Dr Andrew Wakefield
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 19 Apr 13 - 11:58 AM

Acorn4,

How is this related to the topic?

"Tony and Cherie Blair refused to say whether their son had had the triple jab on the grounds that it was their personal business. Shortly after this Cherie Blair wrote in a national newspaper how she and Tony often made love five times a night!"

Not sure how bringing this up now is useful.

Subject: RE: BS: Dr Andrew Wakefield
From: GUEST,Spleen Cringe
Date: 19 Apr 13 - 11:56 AM

Wakefield's research has been thoroughly discredited. It does him no credit that despite this and despite his being struck off he continues to perpetuate his phoney views.

Perhaps no parents of autistic children were on the show because there is no established link between autism and MMR? In any case, being a parent of a child with a particular condition does not necessarily make you an expert on other probably completely unrelated matters.

Subject: RE: BS: Dr Andrew Wakefield
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 19 Apr 13 - 11:43 AM

Well, I don't know whether this fellow can be blamed for the latest outbreak or not, but what I do know that he was highly irresponsible in making public assertions that were unsupported by good evidence. He acted unethically and his "research" was fraudulent. It seems like a long time since he perpetrated these things, but fear has a habit of sticking around for quite a long time in folk memory, and the basis of the fear tends to get distorted along the way. He does have a lot to answer for.

Subject: BS: Dr Andrew Wakefield
From: Acorn4
Date: 19 Apr 13 - 11:29 AM

With the latest news about the measles epidemic in South Wales, the question of the MMR jab take up is in the news again.

Dr Andrew Wakefield has been blamed for this for questioning the safety of the MMR jab. Dr Wakefield never advised parents not to have their children vaccinated against measles but not to have the triple vaccine. Shortly after this the British government of Tony Blair withdrew the option of single vaccines which many parents might have been happy with.

Tony and Cherie Blair refused to say whether their son had had the triple jab on the grounds that it was their personal business. Shortly after this Cherie Blair wrote in a national newspaper how she and Tony often made love five times a night!

Last night there was a programme on mainstream TV with a studio full of parents whose children had had measles but not a single parent of an autistic child. How is that for a balanced debate.

What Dr Wakefield has to say is very interesting:-

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d7kbWfsygG4