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BS: Reflections on Religion and Atheism

GUEST,concerened 25 Apr 13 - 10:28 AM
Jack the Sailor 25 Apr 13 - 10:21 AM
Jack the Sailor 25 Apr 13 - 09:57 AM
Jack the Sailor 24 Apr 13 - 05:15 PM
Jack the Sailor 24 Apr 13 - 11:33 AM
Jack the Sailor 24 Apr 13 - 09:54 AM
GUEST,Musket sans sin 23 Apr 13 - 02:30 PM
Jack the Sailor 23 Apr 13 - 01:06 PM
Musket 23 Apr 13 - 01:01 PM
Jack the Sailor 23 Apr 13 - 12:55 PM
GUEST 23 Apr 13 - 12:51 PM
Steve Shaw 23 Apr 13 - 09:46 AM
Musket 23 Apr 13 - 05:04 AM
Jack the Sailor 22 Apr 13 - 09:23 PM
Jack the Sailor 22 Apr 13 - 08:07 PM
Steve Shaw 22 Apr 13 - 08:03 PM
Bill D 22 Apr 13 - 07:01 PM
Steve Shaw 22 Apr 13 - 06:53 PM
GUEST,Musket sans sailor seaman 22 Apr 13 - 04:21 PM
Jack the Sailor 22 Apr 13 - 04:14 PM
Jack the Sailor 22 Apr 13 - 03:09 PM
GUEST,Musket sans cookie 22 Apr 13 - 01:34 PM
GUEST,pete from seven stars link 22 Apr 13 - 12:49 PM
GUEST,Shimrod 22 Apr 13 - 11:44 AM
GUEST,Dean of Rochester 22 Apr 13 - 11:12 AM
GUEST,Musket sans reality check 22 Apr 13 - 03:54 AM
MGM·Lion 22 Apr 13 - 12:05 AM
Jack the Sailor 21 Apr 13 - 06:44 PM
Ed T 21 Apr 13 - 03:44 PM
MGM·Lion 21 Apr 13 - 02:31 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 21 Apr 13 - 02:22 PM
Jack the Sailor 21 Apr 13 - 01:56 PM
MGM·Lion 21 Apr 13 - 11:57 AM
Jack the Sailor 21 Apr 13 - 11:44 AM
Jack the Sailor 21 Apr 13 - 11:41 AM
Jack the Sailor 21 Apr 13 - 11:03 AM
MGM·Lion 21 Apr 13 - 10:39 AM
Will Fly 21 Apr 13 - 09:24 AM
olddude 21 Apr 13 - 09:12 AM
olddude 21 Apr 13 - 09:11 AM
Jack the Sailor 21 Apr 13 - 09:04 AM
Will Fly 21 Apr 13 - 08:32 AM
MGM·Lion 21 Apr 13 - 08:17 AM
Jack the Sailor 21 Apr 13 - 06:35 AM
MGM·Lion 21 Apr 13 - 05:39 AM
Jack the Sailor 21 Apr 13 - 05:15 AM
MGM·Lion 21 Apr 13 - 01:12 AM
Amos 21 Apr 13 - 12:51 AM
MGM·Lion 21 Apr 13 - 12:46 AM
Amos 20 Apr 13 - 11:44 PM
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Subject: RE: BS: Reflections on Religion and Atheism
From: GUEST,concerened
Date: 25 Apr 13 - 10:28 AM

Just like tumbleweed in a ghost town.... except in Seaman Stayns case... seaweed


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Subject: RE: BS: Reflections on Religion and Atheism
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 25 Apr 13 - 10:21 AM

Bassem Youssef on dogma


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Subject: RE: BS: Reflections on Religion and Atheism
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 25 Apr 13 - 09:57 AM

http://www.thedailyshow.com/watch/wed-april-24-2013/the-golden-rage


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Subject: RE: BS: Reflections on Religion and Atheism
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 24 Apr 13 - 05:15 PM

http://www.musicismyreligion.eu/


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Subject: RE: BS: Reflections on Religion and Atheism
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 24 Apr 13 - 11:33 AM

I don't have a dog in this hunt but the ruling has some interesting implications about the idea of religious freedom.

IDF Rabbinate shows non-Jews the door in mezuzah book ruling

"The idea that views non-Jews as having equal rights in the state goes against the opinion of the Torah, and no representative of the state is authorized to act against the will of the Torah."




http://www.councilforthenationalinterest.org/israelpalestineconflict/missingheadlines/item/2691-idf-rabbinate-shows-non-jews-the


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Subject: RE: BS: Reflections on Religion and Atheism
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 24 Apr 13 - 09:54 AM

belief-in-an-angry-god-associated-with-variety-of-mental-illnesses/

Interesting.


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Subject: RE: BS: Reflections on Religion and Atheism
From: GUEST,Musket sans sin
Date: 23 Apr 13 - 02:30 PM

Zzzzzzzzzzzz


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Subject: RE: BS: Reflections on Religion and Atheism
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 23 Apr 13 - 01:06 PM

Again, Musket sans logic. You are saying that they could not travel far enough to engage in child abuse? Pray tell us, without children, how did they reproduce?


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Subject: RE: BS: Reflections on Religion and Atheism
From: Musket
Date: 23 Apr 13 - 01:01 PM

Aztecs weren't good travellers though, so they couldn't get in the same league as The Crusades, The Inquisition, genital mutilation, terrorism, dismissing contraception or child abuse.


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Subject: RE: BS: Reflections on Religion and Atheism
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 23 Apr 13 - 12:55 PM

The Aztecs cut out peoples hearts but it seemed they thought that was for the greater good.


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Subject: RE: BS: Reflections on Religion and Atheism
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Apr 13 - 12:51 PM

why would anyone follow a religion that hurts other people?


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Subject: RE: BS: Reflections on Religion and Atheism
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 23 Apr 13 - 09:46 AM

If you see a police car in the mirror you might wish that the good Lord would turn your wine into water.


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Subject: RE: BS: Reflections on Religion and Atheism
From: Musket
Date: 23 Apr 13 - 05:04 AM

"I don't claim that Jesus is the greatest role model or speaker or whatever, just that he is the one for me."

You're welcome to him. Although to be fair, (assuming even 1% of that attributed to him is accurate) he was about love, peace, tolerating etc. Just a pity none of that was ever done in his name. Turning people into Christians at any price seems to be the history of that founded using him as the big chief.

I wouldn't mind a role model who could turn water into wine, but as nobody in history has ever done that, other than by the traditional means which, lets face it, isn't worth recording, I'll have to keep looking for inspiration elsewhere. Might buy a mirror....

After all, if you want a hero in human guise, you need to look for humans. Heroes in the mind have a habit of being too easy to agree with, and that would never test you enough. I wonder if that is the draw of religion? Easy cop out?


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Subject: RE: BS: Reflections on Religion and Atheism
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 22 Apr 13 - 09:23 PM

"I got through 1 min 26sec of that before I concluded"

Yes your closed-mindedness is your best feature.


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Subject: RE: BS: Reflections on Religion and Atheism
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 22 Apr 13 - 08:07 PM

Bill there is a lot of reading in those links, none of it current. I had a look at The Faith of the Heretic. The comparison of Jesus to other religious figures to see which is the greatest is not interesting to me. I don't claim that Jesus is the greatest role model or speaker or whatever, just that he is the one for me.


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Subject: RE: BS: Reflections on Religion and Atheism
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 22 Apr 13 - 08:03 PM

Good grief people, believe whatever you want to believe, just don't hurt anyone else. We're all on this planet together.

But you can hurt people with your religion. The world is full of 'em. We'll get the world you want when people of faith can be persuaded to keep it strictly to themselves. And away from the kids especially.


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Subject: RE: BS: Reflections on Religion and Atheism
From: Bill D
Date: 22 Apr 13 - 07:01 PM

Did anyone bother to look at the links to Walter Kaufmann I posted up there ^? There's enough in the 2nd one to see some really important distinctions in this issue.


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Subject: RE: BS: Reflections on Religion and Atheism
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 22 Apr 13 - 06:53 PM

Dogmas of science? I got through 1 min 26sec of that before I concluded irrevocably that here was a demented man talking through his bottom. Shame on you, Jack. By the way, it's always been wacko, never whacko. You couldn't even get that right. Anyway, by posting that tripe you proved the soubriquet to be entirely appropriate. Cheers! Now get yourself back to the Very Silly column. pete's missing you.


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Subject: RE: BS: Reflections on Religion and Atheism
From: GUEST,Musket sans sailor seaman
Date: 22 Apr 13 - 04:21 PM

zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz


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Subject: RE: BS: Reflections on Religion and Atheism
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 22 Apr 13 - 04:14 PM

Dogmas of science.


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Subject: RE: BS: Reflections on Religion and Atheism
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 22 Apr 13 - 03:09 PM

I have never claimed to speak on behalf of any religion. I don't evenbelong to one in any organized or group sense.

Musket I can't recall you having claimed to speak for or about atheists as group. You have been more about trying to poke holes in specific arguments.


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Subject: RE: BS: Reflections on Religion and Atheism
From: GUEST,Musket sans cookie
Date: 22 Apr 13 - 01:34 PM

pete. Thank you for that observation. My note was that some people are saying religion when they mean their own religion. Your point that your religion is the only one you are using in debates is a point some others should listen to.

In the same way I cannot comment on behalf of atheists as I have no idea what people mean when they attest to being one. It could mean irreligious same as me or it could infer a positive stance with inferred structure.


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Subject: RE: BS: Reflections on Religion and Atheism
From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link
Date: 22 Apr 13 - 12:49 PM

musket - just for myself,i dont feel obliged to defend religion in general.as a christian believing Jesus to be the only way to God , it is only the christian faith that i am at all qualified to testify to.the religions that do believe in God do however have something to go on imo.

shimrod - i agree that street evangelists often seem to be achieving nothing,but i do know that sometimes people do stop and chat to them and occasionally conversions follow in course of time.either way people have the opportunity to listen and discuss,and the christians responsibility and desire is to please God rather than people anyway.


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Subject: RE: BS: Reflections on Religion and Atheism
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 22 Apr 13 - 11:44 AM

This, and the endlessly proliferating similar threads, seem to have got the 'religiosos' going in my part of the world (Manchester, UK). The other day I was approached by two Mormon "Elders" (they were both about 20!) in the city centre. These be-suited young men said that they were from Utah. I welcomed them to the city but, before they started preaching, told them that I wasn't religious and that if they hoped to convert me to their cause they would have to prove that God existed. They said that they couldn't offer such proof and after a further exchange of pleasantries they drifted off, presumably to attempt to convert other, more biddable, Mancunian 'heathens'.

On Saturday I noted an earnest looking bloke, in a local town centre, attempting to inform passing shoppers about "the-good-news-about-this-man-Jesus" ... or something. Passing shoppers ignored him (don't blame them!) and, apart from noting his presence, so did I.

Then, this morning, as I was proceeding towards the local supermarket, to do the weekly shop, I noted two "evangelists" with literature (presumably, telling "the good news etc, etc.")on a trestle table. They too were being ignored.

What is the matter with these people? They completely baffle me!


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Subject: RE: BS: Reflections on Religion and Atheism
From: GUEST,Dean of Rochester
Date: 22 Apr 13 - 11:12 AM

Good grief people, believe whatever you want to believe, just don't hurt anyone else. We're all on this planet together.


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Subject: RE: BS: Reflections on Religion and Atheism
From: GUEST,Musket sans reality check
Date: 22 Apr 13 - 03:54 AM

Here's a reflection on religion and atheism.

Which is least offensive to our self styled religious people, atheism or The Church of The Flying Spaghetti Monster?

(Mind you, not The Reformed Church of The Flying Spaghetti Monster. Chism inducing bastards. )

Is it any religion that is illogically defended here or just one particular flavour? I think some people are quicker to defend Christianity on these threads rather than religion. ...


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Subject: RE: BS: Reflections on Religion and Atheism
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 22 Apr 13 - 12:05 AM

Well, Jack; he might have inspired popes, Protestant evangelists, politicians, and other world leaders - and you.

But his woolly irrational assertiveness sure as hell didn't inspire me.

Sorry and all that...

~M~


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Subject: RE: BS: Reflections on Religion and Atheism
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 21 Apr 13 - 06:44 PM

But no mere mere Christian, he (C.S.Lewis) became arguably the leading popular Christian apologist of the 20th century, a defender and explainer of the faith who was hailed by popes, Protestant evangelists, politicians, and other world leaders for his brilliant yet accessible campaign against the rising tide of unbelief in the modern world.

http://www.usnews.com/usnews/news/articles/051212/12lewis.htm


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Subject: RE: BS: Reflections on Religion and Atheism
From: Ed T
Date: 21 Apr 13 - 03:44 PM

Mrs.Brown's reflections to the Mormons


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Subject: RE: BS: Reflections on Religion and Atheism
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 21 Apr 13 - 02:31 PM

I know he was trying to inspire, Jack. My point is that he failed, because his exposition and content were so woolly and imprecise. All part of that 'air of having triumphantly demonstrated what has merely been strenuously asserted' that John Gross described [writing of another critic] as 'faintly comic'. He was a noted academic, for heaven's sake. One should expect some intellectual, not merely vaguely 'inspirational', argument from him, surely?

A bit like an art critic saying, "ooh, aah, this is beautiful" over & over again. I should never bother to look at any art on such a one's recommendation or say-so.

~M~


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Subject: RE: BS: Reflections on Religion and Atheism
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 21 Apr 13 - 02:22 PM

""of course i also think theists have caused much of the war, child abuse and pollution in our world.they forgibe thenselves anything, child rape, war and toture, while never forgiving anyone asking obvious questions""

I do wish that debaters would refrain from aligning "Theists" with the followers of religious organisation.

As one of those Theists, I can confirm that we are set apart from Christians, Muslims, Protestants and all the other groups whose stock in trade is telling their followers what to believe, by the simple fact that we know the difference between "Faith" and "Religion", and don't follow the latter.

It is precisely for this reason that I say I am more at home talking to Atheists, for they are almost sure that there is no God, while I am almost sure there is.

The certainties of the various religions permits of no fruitful discussion.

Don T.

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: Reflections on Religion and Atheism
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 21 Apr 13 - 01:56 PM

He wasn't trying to argue or to impress M~. He was trying to inspire.


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Subject: RE: BS: Reflections on Religion and Atheism
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 21 Apr 13 - 11:57 AM

All sort of inspirational sounding, Jack; but all a bit nebulous in actual intellectual content, it seems to me.

~M~


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Subject: RE: BS: Reflections on Religion and Atheism
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 21 Apr 13 - 11:44 AM

I believe in Christianity as I believe that the sun has risen: not only because I see it, but because by it I see everything else.
C. S. Lewis


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Subject: RE: BS: Reflections on Religion and Atheism
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 21 Apr 13 - 11:41 AM

If you read history you will find that the Christians who did most for the present world were precisely those who thought most of the next. It is since Christians have largely ceased to think of the other world that they have become so ineffective in this.
C. S. Lewis


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Subject: RE: BS: Reflections on Religion and Atheism
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 21 Apr 13 - 11:03 AM

C.S. Lewis is very admired and revered as a wise and beloved role model by my father. My dad used to organize church events for children in my home town where Lewis based films were shown and attend Bible studies and reading his works were discussed. I think that you and Dad could have quite the warm conversation about his lectures.

:-)


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Subject: RE: BS: Reflections on Religion and Atheism
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 21 Apr 13 - 10:39 AM

C S Lewis actually became both a storyteller and a discursive religious writer late in life. He was primarily an Oxford (& later on, Cambridge) literary academic, especially a writer on the works of Milton ~~ his Preface To Paradise Lost was a helpful student guide which I made much use of in my Higher Schools course and my Cambridge entrance exam, in which I was fortunate enough to gain entry to Milton's own college, Christ's [though he had, admittedly, gone down some years {about 325} earlier!]. While there I heard Lewis lecture: whatever his faults, he was certainly a gifted and inspiring lecturer.

~M~


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Subject: RE: BS: Reflections on Religion and Atheism
From: Will Fly
Date: 21 Apr 13 - 09:24 AM

Dan, I've got my eye on a 1950s Gruen at the moment... Swiss movement but a lovely dial and in tip-top condition.


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Subject: RE: BS: Reflections on Religion and Atheism
From: olddude
Date: 21 Apr 13 - 09:12 AM

how about a great American wrist watch then, none of those newfangled battery ones


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Subject: RE: BS: Reflections on Religion and Atheism
From: olddude
Date: 21 Apr 13 - 09:11 AM

I can fix that jack ... can get you a great replacment


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Subject: RE: BS: Reflections on Religion and Atheism
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 21 Apr 13 - 09:04 AM

As I said, I don't know any Christians who take C.S. Lewis quite so literally as you appear to.


"Trouble with C S Lewis, he was IMO a poor arguer ~ assertive and often illogical."

I think your perception of that is tainted by a propensity on your part to look at this from and "arguer's" point of view. I think that Mr. Lewis was quite wise enough to know that arguments do not change minds.

I think that he was a story teller first and foremost and took "debates" as a chance to tell stories.

He realized that when confronted by argumentative people he is under no requirement to play by their rules or to be judged by their standards.

Jesus wasn't much of an arguer either. He just went about making his points through the noise.


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Subject: RE: BS: Reflections on Religion and Atheism
From: Will Fly
Date: 21 Apr 13 - 08:32 AM

we might thunk that H G Wells ... had actually also invented a working time machine while he was invisible

Of course he did - we just couldn't see it...


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Subject: RE: BS: Reflections on Religion and Atheism
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 21 Apr 13 - 08:17 AM

Don't put words in my mouth, please Jack. I didn't suggest he 'promoted' anything; simply that the analogies he chose to illustrate the point he was obviously intending to promote were counter-productively flawed and illogical and unconvincing ones.

And you do no favours to him or to yourself or to your argument by trying to equate his explicitly tendentiously discursive writings with his explicitly fictitious ones. Any child over the age of not-very knows the difference between 'a true book' and 'a story book'. Don't you think the same person should be allowed to write both? Just in case we might think that H G Wells, say, who wrote sociological essays and school science textbooks, had actually also invented a working time machine while he was invisible?

~M~


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Subject: RE: BS: Reflections on Religion and Atheism
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 21 Apr 13 - 06:35 AM

Come on M~ be fair, I also made a hetero joke.

"I can't see where your apparent implication of homophobia on CSL's part comes from or in"

But you DO see him as having promoted promiscuity? LOL. Interesting.

I think all that he was saying was that man and woman make beautiful music together or some such. He was after all a fantasy writer and he did like allegory. I don't think he ever claimed to have actually read screwtape's letters or to have stepped through a wardrobe into another world.


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Subject: RE: BS: Reflections on Religion and Atheism
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 21 Apr 13 - 05:39 AM

No, Jack ~~ tho I can't see where your apparent implication of homophobia on CSL's part comes from or in ~~ but we broke up for other reasons; tho not entirely disconnected, as I recall: I couldn't stomach her being taken in at a meeting of that old charlatan 'Dr' [which he wasn't!] Billy Graham & going up at the end to 'acknowledge her faith', or whatever it was the old fraud made people do.

Amos, out of interest, please nominate some other Intellectual Freebooters that I am 'all the same' as. I should just like to know who else is in this club you appear to have founded on my behalf.

~M~


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Subject: RE: BS: Reflections on Religion and Atheism
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 21 Apr 13 - 05:15 AM

I don't know any Christians who take C.S. Lewis quite s literally.   

Tell us something please,

If when you had said

"(Y)ou could play any violin with any bow and cut as many keys as you wanted for any lock."


She had said "Yes but, you can't play a violin with a violin and you can't open a lock with another lock."

Or more to the point, "Let's see if your key fits."

Would you still be together?


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Subject: RE: BS: Reflections on Religion and Atheism
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 21 Apr 13 - 01:12 AM

'Intellectual freebooter' am I? Cor! Thanks, Amos. Shall remember that about myself, & cite it as a qualification, along with the description of me on another forum as one whose 'pedantry was legendary'!

~M~
[MA
FRSA
IF (Intellectual Freebooter)
OLP (Official Legendary Pedant)


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Subject: RE: BS: Reflections on Religion and Atheism
From: Amos
Date: 21 Apr 13 - 12:51 AM

LOL, MgM. You intellectual freebooters are all the same!! :D



A


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Subject: RE: BS: Reflections on Religion and Atheism
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 21 Apr 13 - 12:46 AM

Trouble with C S Lewis, he was IMO a poor arguer ~ assertive and often illogical. As Gross said of Lewis's great critical adversary Leavis, he had often the "faintly comic air of having triumphantly demonstrated what had merely been strenuously asserted". I recall a somewhat hysterically Christian girlfriend I had in my undergraduate days who spent much time & energy trying to convert me. We were arguing about marital fidelity once, and she gave me the following to read ~~

"The Christian idea of marriage is based on Christ's words that a man and wife are to be regarded as a single organism – for that is what the words 'one flesh' would be in modern English. And the Christians believe that when He said this He was not expressing a sentiment but stating a fact – just as one is stating a fact when one says that a lock and its key are one mechanism, or that a violin and a bow are one musical instrument." (C. S. Lewis, Mere Christianity)

She got quite sulky & upset when I pointed out that you could play any violin with any bow and cut as many keys as you wanted for any lock.

~M~


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Subject: RE: BS: Reflections on Religion and Atheism
From: Amos
Date: 20 Apr 13 - 11:44 PM

God --Old TEetament notwithstanding -- cannot possibly be a bully, and the concept is self-contradictory. It would be like posing the philosophical question "Is Good really Bad?"; all it would serve to do is torture minds.

If bully ==> NOT God and If God==> NOT bully.

A


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