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BS: Reflections on Religion and Atheism

Jack the Sailor 20 Apr 13 - 11:42 PM
GUEST,olddude 20 Apr 13 - 11:02 PM
Jack the Sailor 20 Apr 13 - 10:40 PM
Jack the Sailor 20 Apr 13 - 10:31 PM
Steve Shaw 20 Apr 13 - 08:26 PM
Ebbie 20 Apr 13 - 08:24 PM
GUEST,ollaimh 20 Apr 13 - 07:49 PM
Jack the Sailor 20 Apr 13 - 06:49 PM
Bill D 20 Apr 13 - 06:45 PM
Bill D 20 Apr 13 - 06:41 PM
Bill D 20 Apr 13 - 06:26 PM
GUEST,pete from seven stars link 20 Apr 13 - 06:14 PM
MGM·Lion 20 Apr 13 - 05:40 PM
GUEST,pete from seven stars link 20 Apr 13 - 05:23 PM
Jim Carroll 20 Apr 13 - 04:54 AM
GUEST,Musket sans cookie 20 Apr 13 - 04:08 AM
Jack the Sailor 20 Apr 13 - 02:10 AM
olddude 19 Apr 13 - 10:00 PM
GUEST,Futwick 19 Apr 13 - 08:26 PM
GUEST,Spleen Cringe 19 Apr 13 - 07:52 PM
Steve Shaw 19 Apr 13 - 07:45 PM
GUEST,Blandiver 19 Apr 13 - 07:05 PM
Joe Offer 19 Apr 13 - 05:24 PM
Jack the Sailor 19 Apr 13 - 04:46 PM
Ed T 19 Apr 13 - 03:33 PM
Jack the Sailor 19 Apr 13 - 03:00 PM
Steve Shaw 19 Apr 13 - 02:56 PM
Stringsinger 19 Apr 13 - 02:30 PM
Ebbie 19 Apr 13 - 02:00 PM
GUEST,Spleen Cringe 19 Apr 13 - 01:57 PM
frogprince 19 Apr 13 - 01:38 PM
frogprince 19 Apr 13 - 01:34 PM
Jack the Sailor 19 Apr 13 - 11:49 AM
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Subject: RE: BS: Reflections on Religion and Atheism
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 20 Apr 13 - 11:42 PM

No, My pocket watch heart was broken. No more for me.


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Subject: RE: BS: Reflections on Religion and Atheism
From: GUEST,olddude
Date: 20 Apr 13 - 11:02 PM

Well Jack ya know i can get ya a pocket watch, got lots of em, then you can join the thread. I use to like Jerry's sitting at the kitchen table thread. I think he had about 7 years of conversation on that puppy. But it is no more. He was bad mouthed to the point where he couldn't take it anymore I guess.   One hell of a legendary performer, songwriter and about the best friend one could ask for


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Subject: RE: BS: Reflections on Religion and Atheism
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 20 Apr 13 - 10:40 PM

Is God a Bully?

A lot of atheists imply God being a bully in their eyes is one of the reasons they rejected the teachings of their childhood. This preacher has a fairly novel approach.


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Subject: RE: BS: Reflections on Religion and Atheism
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 20 Apr 13 - 10:31 PM

FUTWICK Thank you reading the article. Like you I am not convinced that he has made his argument. But lets look at who he is.

Johnnie Moore is the author of a new book about Jesus called Dirty God (#DirtyGod). He is a Professor of Religion and Vice President of Liberty University

If anyone is going to be approached by fiery atheist zealots, I think it is he. It is almost certain that he is confronted online by people who have read the works of the New Atheists, have been inspired and want to try out their chops. But fire and brimstone preachers make a good living and Internet arguers have to make a living so comparing them one to one is hardly fair. It really seems to me that Johnnie Moore is exaggerating to push his point.

I think for me the problem with the New atheists is just this. Confronting people like Johnnie Moore and calling them names is not going to help the world move toward reason. In fact it moves society in the direction of chaos.


You said this.

"Well, he's right. You see, Lewis didn't become a Christian in any sense that most Christians today would recognize or accept as an atheist. He realized, as I have, that there is power in these old myths as long as you understand that a myth is neither a falsehood (atheist) nor history (Christian)."


I don't understand what you are saying. Where I am from C.S. Lewis is well respected in Christian Circles and was recommended reading in my fathers Church (United Church of Canada)for doubters and well respected among protestant ministers in my home town. I have no way of knowing how widespread this was in Canada but I don't think any Christian who reads his works sees him as an atheist.

I think that a lot of Christians do appreciate the Christian Lewis became and they regularly read his books about becoming Christian, staying Christian and avoiding temptation.

His "Screwtape Letters" seem to me be like just the type of pushing ideas on children that Mr. Dawkins decries.

Many of his works were written to bring children to the Faith and keep them in the Faith.


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Subject: RE: BS: Reflections on Religion and Atheism
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 20 Apr 13 - 08:26 PM

so atheist talk of their being persecuted is a little far fetched IMO.

Far from feeling persecuted, pete, every time we read one of your posts we feel incredibly amused. Please don't stop, as the duchess said to the vicar.


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Subject: RE: BS: Reflections on Religion and Atheism
From: Ebbie
Date: 20 Apr 13 - 08:24 PM

I tend to agree with Guest/ollaimh in his post. In my experience, those who truly are convinced of the rightness of their beliefs tend to be peaceful about it- they don't need others' affirmation and acquiescence. They largely avoid confrontation and conflict.


* The person secure in their marriage does not feel threatened by the existence of homosexual marriage.
* The person secure in their sexuality is not threatened by others' sexuality.

I'll bet that's true of a number of other controversies.


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Subject: RE: BS: Reflections on Religion and Atheism
From: GUEST,ollaimh
Date: 20 Apr 13 - 07:49 PM

in my experience most atheists and agnostics are quite about it. it religious people who are constatntly trumpeting their rightness, and righteousness. it's only recently we have seen a few atheists go public and the extreme over reaction from fundamentalists shows how weak their beliefs and ideas are. the almost never address the arguments of atheists, but instead exagerate them out of all proportion and attack the silly versions they have made up. it's called a staw man argument.

i know of no atheists who have cost another a job or housing or even a social position because they were religious. religious people do that kind of discrimination all the time.

most atheists and agnostic don't bother to argue with believers because we know how intellectually challenged they are it they will only get angry, and often lash out in violence or discrimination.

i should include fundamentalist muslims and jews in this, as well as christians.

really get over your selves. atheists and agnostics do not try to force their beliefs on you, they don't try to edit science in the schools to meets their ideas, they don't discriminate against theists. theists on the other hand think any questions are a direct discrimination against them. i am tired of the fatuous article like the one sailor started with, they preach only to the converted.

of course i also think theists have caused much of the war, child abuse and pollution in our world.they forgibe thenselves anything, child rape, war and toture, while never forgiving anyone asking obvious questions


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Subject: RE: BS: Reflections on Religion and Atheism
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 20 Apr 13 - 06:49 PM

Is God a bully?


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Subject: RE: BS: Reflections on Religion and Atheism
From: Bill D
Date: 20 Apr 13 - 06:45 PM

link to the downloads page(several formats)


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Subject: RE: BS: Reflections on Religion and Atheism
From: Bill D
Date: 20 Apr 13 - 06:41 PM

Even better... read his other book online- "Faith of a Heretic"

Here is his summary of it.

Walter Kaufmann was a Protestant Christian who became a Jew... then an 'atheist' of sorts.... and a tenured philosopher at Princeton. His reasoned approach was my early introduction to the idea of knowing all sides of the question. I heard him speak in 1959.


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Subject: RE: BS: Reflections on Religion and Atheism
From: Bill D
Date: 20 Apr 13 - 06:26 PM

If you have a real interest in the topic, read this, then look it up and order a full copy. You will seldom find a better analysis.


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Subject: RE: BS: Reflections on Religion and Atheism
From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link
Date: 20 Apr 13 - 06:14 PM

i was referring to jims directly above mine.i am glad that you dont feel persecuted.to be honest,neither do i despite the insults.there are christians in some countries that do know real persecution.

i also meant to add in last post that most posts on the subject were began by atheists.the exception being kents,prior to jack floating the current batch.


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Subject: RE: BS: Reflections on Religion and Atheism
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 20 Apr 13 - 05:40 PM

Where has any atheist around here complained of any 'persecution', pete? I expect people to argue with me ~~ that's what a forum is for; but I don't feel in the least persecuted.

~M~


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Subject: RE: BS: Reflections on Religion and Atheism
From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link
Date: 20 Apr 13 - 05:23 PM

i agree that jack has started a lot of related threads lately,but prior to this spate the only other thread that related to this topic and was kents on creationism,best i can recall.
so atheist talk of their being persecuted is a little far fetched IMO.


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Subject: RE: BS: Reflections on Religion and Atheism
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Apr 13 - 04:54 AM

The number of threads on atheism is now approaching the level of persecution that that Jack and his P.R. team are snivelling about, an indication of who is persecuting whom. If it was one of us non-believers that started this you might have a point and I'm sure you'd be the first one to say so.
I'm beginning to look forward to the next visit of the Jehovah's Witnesses as light relief; a little 'overkill' don't you think Jack - give us a copy of you magazine and go away.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Reflections on Religion and Atheism
From: GUEST,Musket sans cookie
Date: 20 Apr 13 - 04:08 AM

Yeah Joe. Like we need another religion thread either. Sorry but the title includes putting religion in the same basket as lack of religion. Blame Sailor boy, it helps keep a perspective.

When I saw this thread I dismissed it as BOHICA.

Putting belief and lack of belief in the same sentence and asking for a view is like asking restaurant goers for their view on diesel versus petrol cars. Sure, you would get views but a restaurant isn't the obvious place to conduct the survey, a car showroom would be more appropriate.

Lack of religion is not a stance or a decision. Some have made a decision but the majority of people here in The UK only utter the word Jesus when trapping their finger in a door. Proof of heritage but not of conscious affirmation.


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Subject: RE: BS: Reflections on Religion and Atheism
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 20 Apr 13 - 02:10 AM

I love you olddude. But my only story about pocket watches is too sad to relate. Outside of that story, I have no interest in the subject.


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Subject: RE: BS: Reflections on Religion and Atheism
From: olddude
Date: 19 Apr 13 - 10:00 PM

naw i am done with the religion and atheism stuff. The well went dry.. it is like talking to a rock anyway. I must be the only one that misses some great catters like Jerry or Dwditty.

Anyway wanna talk about pocket watches. I got a great thread


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Subject: RE: BS: Reflections on Religion and Atheism
From: GUEST,Futwick
Date: 19 Apr 13 - 08:26 PM

>>Honestly – comically – some atheists must type the word "God" on the Internet five times more often than most Christians I know and they do it with the fury of a fire-and-brimstone zealot!<<

Honestly? Well, then, I assume the author has proof. Do you, as I, get the feeling he doesn't? As for the fury with which atheists write, I guess I'll take his word for it because I don't know what he's talking about. Do you, as I, get the feeling he doesn't either?

>>Instead of just ignoring God, or the idea of God, atheist preachers feel somehow compelled to rid the Earth of him; so they argue endlessly that theists can't prove God exists without confessing that they can't prove he doesn't either.<<

I suppose it bears endless repeatings that the atheist doesn't have the burden of proof. If I say there is a 50 ft long, invisible UFO floating over your head what follows you everywhere you go and can pass through solid walls, wouldn't it be my job to prove it BEFORE I expect you to believe it? I mean, really.

>>They worship a God that loses his car keys when they are in his hand, or that misplaces the glasses on his face – a God filled with flaws and inadequacies, and a God (themselves) whose probability of helping them supernaturally is absolutely zero.<<

The atheist worships himself? Hmm. So when a Christian or Islamic zealot presumes to tell everybody what his god wants and does not want, he's not actually making himself god in the process? But the atheist, who does nothing of the sort, does make himself god?? Interesting...uhhh...reasoning.

One of the nice things about the Christian God is that he seems to be as concerned about those that do not believe as those who do.


>>For C.S. Lewis, the iconic British scholar, was himself a convert from the religion of the atheism to the religion of Christianity because, as he later said: "atheism turns out to be too simple."<<

Well, he's right. You see, Lewis didn't become a Christian in any sense that most Christians today would recognize or accept as an atheist. He realized, as I have, that there is power in these old myths as long as you understand that a myth is neither a falsehood (atheist) nor history (Christian).

>>Oddly enough, atheists often accuse theists of being the simple ones. We are "anti-intellectual," they say, and in so doing they become exactly what they accuse us of being.<<

No, you theists ARE anti-intellectual. No doubt about it. My beef with a lot of atheists is, as Lewis says, that they have stripped things down too far. Christianity is a gem in the middle of gigantic pile of worthless stinking shit. Unable to find the gem, atheists have declared there isn't one. Christians otoh are offended for having their shit called shit. That's anti-intellectual to me.


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Subject: RE: BS: Reflections on Religion and Atheism
From: GUEST,Spleen Cringe
Date: 19 Apr 13 - 07:52 PM

I prefer 'humanist'...


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Subject: RE: BS: Reflections on Religion and Atheism
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 19 Apr 13 - 07:45 PM

Atheism is such a stupid word. Like when you were a kid and kept repeating a particular word until it became utterly senseless. Maybe that's what Jacko's trying to do. Make us keep saying "atheist" until we think it's senseless.

Nah. He's not that clever.

It is a stupid word though. My one issue with Richard Dawkins is that he didn't ditch that word. I hate saying that I'm an atheist (though I am one, 99%, sort of). "A" means "not", or "without". "Theist" means something or other to do with someone's God. I'm not without someone's God though. I'm not involved. That's only what they think, because they have a God of some sort that they appear to have invented, and I don't agree (I can only be 99.9% certain that he's only invented, though. Grrr). But I wouldn't be an atheist had they not invented him. It's only because they invented him that I'm here. Had no-one ever thought to invent God, there would be no faith and no atheists. So I have to ask myself what I've done to be an atheist. The answer is, nothing. Tell me that you believe the moon is made of green cheese. Well, I don't believe that (though I can only be 99.9% certain that the moon isn't made of green cheese). You've made a ludicrous assertion that can't be backed up with evidence (a bit like your God) but which I can't actually decisively disprove. So I have to spend the rest of my days as an agreencheeseist. Had you not come up with your ridiculous notion (but which you were very careful to construct in such a way that it couldn't be disproved, as with your God), I wouldn't be an agreencheeseist. I'm an agreencheeseist only because greencheeseists invented me. I didn't do anything to be branded an agreencheeseist (except try to be rational), but I appear to be stuck with it. I hope you can see why I feel a bit cross when I'm branded "atheist" all the time before I can have a discussion about this stuff. My position is carved out for me by believers even before I open my mouth. I spend all my atheistic life trying to not allow myself to have to argue from believer territory, yet the word I have applied to me does that every time. Grrr. But I'm not bitter.


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Subject: RE: BS: Reflections on Religion and Atheism
From: GUEST,Blandiver
Date: 19 Apr 13 - 07:05 PM

My religion's Atheism, not because Atheism's a Religion you understand, but it can be someone's religion in the same way that Religion can be someone's religion, even if they don't take it Religiously (I've known a few), unlike the Religious, who take their Religion very Religiously indeed. I'm not Religious about my religion because my religion isn't a Religious sort of religion, it's a very non-Religious sort of religion; in fact, it's the sort of religion that the Religious would have good reason not to find Religious at all, maybe a little sacrilegious, but sacrilege is cool because it doesn't take Religion Religiously but understands that it's going to be different for everyone anyway, and the trouble starts when people start take offence over other folks' religion be they Religious Religions or non-Religious religions.


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Subject: RE: BS: Reflections on Religion and Atheism
From: Joe Offer
Date: 19 Apr 13 - 05:24 PM

Right.
We need another atheism thread.
Like hell we do.


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Subject: RE: BS: Reflections on Religion and Atheism
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 19 Apr 13 - 04:46 PM

Well the point of this one like Amos' about candidate Obama is to put new developments on it. If I get 7-8 complaints per post, after a while it will be a very large thread.


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Subject: RE: BS: Reflections on Religion and Atheism
From: Ed T
Date: 19 Apr 13 - 03:33 PM

Why not start a thread titled "only what has not been said before on Mudcat on religion and atheism", and see if there are any posts?


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Subject: RE: BS: Reflections on Religion and Atheism
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 19 Apr 13 - 03:00 PM

Thank you Steve. A real compliment coming from you.


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Subject: RE: BS: Reflections on Religion and Atheism
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 19 Apr 13 - 02:56 PM

Jack, you appear to be obsessive and neurotic. You must be an absolute bastard to live with.


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Subject: RE: BS: Reflections on Religion and Atheism
From: Stringsinger
Date: 19 Apr 13 - 02:30 PM

You can't win an argument who bases it on "faith". There is no logic involved.

Another report, not Fox News

He was handed a defeat by students who voted for the Archbishop. This could have been that the students were predisposed toward "faith" but it in no way invalidates what Dawkins is saying. It just means he wasn't popular, that's all.

If this thread is so tired, why does it keep popping up on Mudcat under various titles?


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Subject: RE: BS: Reflections on Religion and Atheism
From: Ebbie
Date: 19 Apr 13 - 02:00 PM

'Reflections on Religion and Atheism'? And what were all the other threads on this tired subject?


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Subject: RE: BS: Reflections on Religion and Atheism
From: GUEST,Spleen Cringe
Date: 19 Apr 13 - 01:57 PM

Dunno about atheism. Music is my religion. This is my current book of hymns. Enjoy!

Piedra sobre piedra


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Subject: RE: BS: Reflections on Religion and Atheism
From: frogprince
Date: 19 Apr 13 - 01:38 PM

And I'm already regretting posting to this, as I don't see how it will lead to anything except more of the usual suspects going around in the same circles.


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Subject: RE: BS: Reflections on Religion and Atheism
From: frogprince
Date: 19 Apr 13 - 01:34 PM

Well written? It might be possible to paint all atheists with a broader brush, and define them with more reaction and less logic, but it wouldn't be easy. In a word, it's what is to be expected from Fox.
(And yes, Jack, I saw your note that it doesn't represent your stance).


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Subject: BS: Reflections on Religion and Atheism
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 19 Apr 13 - 11:49 AM

I remember that in 2007 there were threads with all kinds of things with President Obama and other figures. As I recall it was Amos' doing mostly.

Maybe we can do the same with this controversy.

We can start off with this, which is not my point of view, which is well written and encapsulates a specific point of view.

Opinion: Atheism is religion.


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