BS: Obit - The Myth of Western Democracy

Subject: BS: Obit: The Myth of Western Democracy
From: Stu
Date: 22 May 13 - 05:32 AM

Yesterday Tim Cook of Apple told a US Senate sub-committee that in order for Apple to bring it's profits back onshore the government would have to slash tax rates from 35% to single digits. In the UK parliament, Google and Amazon have both faced down committees of democratically elected representatives of the people.

We are witnessing the hard-won democratic rights of folk across the western world in their death-throes. Multinationals are now not simply lobbying quietly in the background to buy off our politicians, they sit in front of them, in the full glare of the media and dictate policy and deny their responsibilities as part of the society they are part of. From Westminster parliamentary committees to Senate subcommittees and beyond they cock a snoop at the democratic process they have exploited to earn their profits.

The tax burden is back where it has been throughout history; with us, the ordinary working folk. We subsidise these massive businesses with grants, whilst the goods they make are manufactured not here at home, but in the far east where wages, human and worker's rights are cheap, expendable or can be ignored.

We're loosing a way of life to unregulated capitalism, a system utterly incapable of meaningful self-regulation. Our democratic system is in tatters as multinationals run roughshod over our elected representatives and state institutions. Our elected representatives are in the thrall of these corporations, unable or unwilling to challenge their dominance over the political classes, themselves detached from the reality of everyday life as they snuffle in the trough for scraps and feather their own nests at the expense of the taxpayer.

We live in a post-democracy world. Ordinary folk are irrelevant; we don't count any more. We are a revenue stream, a statistic that economists can factor in to their calculations. 'The citizens' have become an abstract concept unfettered by the reality of everyday life for the source of those numbers.

What should we call this system now?

Subject: RE: BS: Obit: The Myth of Western Democracy
From: Greg F.
Date: 22 May 13 - 08:07 AM

Unregulated capitalism. Same as it ever was.

Subject: RE: BS: Obit: The Myth of Western Democracy
From: GUEST
Date: 22 May 13 - 09:02 AM

Unregulated greed is more like it.

Subject: RE: BS: Obit: The Myth of Western Democracy
From: artbrooks
Date: 22 May 13 - 09:30 AM

I doubt very much if anyone with any knowledge of history, American or otherwise, has any delusion that pure, town-hall-meeting democracy has ever existed except on the micro-scale (and please don't bring up male-centric, slave holding Athens). People have been buying votes ever since there have been votes to be bought.

"Same as it ever was" isn't too far off, although I don't think that capitalism, as currently practiced, is completely unregulated. In fact, we are far from the truly unregulated times of the late nineteenth century. OTOH, 'room for improvement' fails to express the distance we have yet to travel.

Subject: RE: BS: Obit: The Myth of Western Democracy
From: akenaton
Date: 22 May 13 - 10:12 AM

We are not "travelling" forward, at this time the Capitalist system in the West is in decline.....Regulation is anathema to Capitalism, it is to all intents and purposes, piracy.

I have been saying this since well before the "financial crisis" became apparent, only to be accused of doom-mongering from all the "we can fix it "liberals".

I think only the US people have the guts and optimism to start a new sort of society, which is strange considering how they embrased Capitalism and its "values" only to be manipulated and lied to.

But when I observe how they handle personal adversity and tragedy, with spirit and a can do attitude, I think there may still be hope

Subject: RE: BS: Obit: The Myth of Western Democracy
From: Elmore
Date: 22 May 13 - 10:22 AM

My head says Stu is right, but my heart is with akenton.

Subject: RE: BS: Obit: The Myth of Western Democracy
From: michaelr
Date: 22 May 13 - 10:27 AM

It has become quite clear that democracy and capitalism are incompatible.

Subject: RE: BS: Obit: The Myth of Western Democracy
From: Rapparee
Date: 22 May 13 - 10:36 AM

So? Are you willing to die for you beliefs?

If not, you're not a revolutionary. Power, said Mao, comes from the muzzle of a rifle.

Artbrooks is correct.

Subject: RE: BS: Obit: The Myth of Western Democracy
From: Ron Davies
Date: 22 May 13 - 10:40 AM

Here we go again.


" a new sort of society"   

And just how is life in la-la land these days?

Face it, self-interest is at the heart of capitalism.   Self-interest is human nature. And without an appeal to self-interest, no society can function on the long-term.

Any government is imperfect.    The best system devised has been capitalism combined with representative demoeracy.

No purely socialist system has ever worked.    Don't try citing Sweden, for instance-- if Leftist idealists can read, they will discover, as I have noted --years--earlier, Sweden is in fact heavily dependent on mostly large Swedish capitalists to fund its welfare state.    Cuba, the other darling of the Left, is introducing more and more capitalism.   And Cuba is a police state--try the sort of dissent you find here on Mudcat in the political bilge below the line and see where that gets you in Cuba.   Or perhaps you prefer North Korea--another Socialist paradise--just ask the current leader.

It's faintly amusing how many threads below the line deserve quick deaths.

Subject: RE: BS: Obit: The Myth of Western Democracy
From: Bobert
Date: 22 May 13 - 10:51 AM

The 35% corporate rate is the biggest joke around 'cause corporation flat out don't pay any, as in zero, taxes on their profits...

The only taxes they pay are withholding for employees, and property taxes...

So it wouldn't make any difference if the US had a 20% rate, a 10% rate, a 5% rate or a 1% rate...

This crap we hear from the corporation is just NOISE...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Obit: The Myth of Western Democracy
From: Stringsinger
Date: 22 May 13 - 11:02 AM

If we look historically at Mussolini, we can call it encroaching fascism, the wedding and control of corporate power over the government.

Self interest is not essentially human nature. This is another myth that won't die.
More scientists are coming on board with the idea that the reason we survive is because we have an altruistic streak. The amusing idea that everyone is out for Number One is a fallacy maintained by the Ayn Randers and their damaging effect on constructive social programs. This was misnamed "Social Darwinism" for which Darwin, himself would have objected. It's not in the "Origin of Species". Even the term "Survival of the Fittest" was coined by English philosopher, Herbert Spencer and is not found in the "Origin".

Capitalism has its flaws. America right now is not even Capitalist but an Oligarchy and Plutocracy.''

No purely Capitalist system has ever worked. This ostensible one isn't working at all for the majority of its citizens.

However, during the Roosevelt years, we saw a kind of socialism that worked very well for a short period of time through government agencies and a socialist concept, Social Security. Trade unionism did a lot of good, during that time. Socialists and communists were responsible for inroads in civil rights, women's rights, worker's rights and curbing the excesses of corporations and the military industrial complex.

Subject: RE: BS: Obit: The Myth of Western Democracy
From: akenaton
Date: 22 May 13 - 11:16 AM

Yes Bobert...the system encourages tax evasion by the rich...that is the "carrot"

The ordinary folks get "the stick"....especially when the system fucks up spectactularly... and we are about to be beaten to a pulp, as we are surplus to requirements.

Like they did in Cyprus, it wont be long till they start dipping into private bank accounts.
The most important thing is to keep a sense of proportion, any change is going to be long term.....if we try revolution we will be shot down like dogs....we have stop dividing ourselves into factions, the enemy is not the left or the right socialist or conservative, it is the system itself.....it is the system which corrupts, I do not believe that humanity is inately corrupt, many of the primitive civilisations existed for many thousands of years.

Our values have been corrupted by the deification of money...most modern civilisations have been destroyed by the worship of false gods.

I dont agree with people like Ron who say there is no altruism in humanity....they excuse the system.....there is no altruism in any economic system, as to prosper it requires the sacrifice of other humans or earths resources.

Subject: RE: BS: Obit: The Myth of Western Democracy
From: DMcG
Date: 22 May 13 - 01:53 PM

No purely socialist system has ever worked.

Things aren't so simple. Much depends on what you mean by 'worked', for example. I have spoken to a goodly number of Hungarians, Russians and so on who have quite independently made the point that for all the very real hardships under communist rule, they found the capitalist systems that arrived as they broke away much worse, especially for things like unemployment. Of course if you define 'working' to be doing what capitalist economies do, then it is tautalogical to say nothing else works as well.

Subject: RE: BS: Obit: The Myth of Western Democracy
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 22 May 13 - 02:16 PM

ArtBrooks: "People have been buying votes ever since there have been votes to be bought."

Corruption!..and with 'Citizens United', foreign money is now filtered in. Art is absolutely correct on this one...and what is going on in Washington, as we speak(read:type), is nothing short of an internal war, reminiscent of the Soviet Union, communist China, and banana republics(among others). We were FAR better off, when the Constitution was even related to....though there were periods of time, that it was going through 'growing pains' of being applicable to everyone...Now, as it stands, BOTH parties and the banksters, in bed with Wall Street, and our laughing stock of an administration, find the Constitution as 'just in the way'!
Shame on them!!!...and shame on you, if you're buying into that load of treasonous crap!!!!

Bring it on home, through the music!!!

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Obit: The Myth of Western Democracy
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 22 May 13 - 04:51 PM

Ron Davies won't want to hear it, by my experience exactly supports what DMcG said. I've met many people from East Germany, Hungary and Russia who remember when everyone had a job and most families had a car. For sure the jobs didn't pay well - a doctor might get no more than double the pay of a road sweeper - and the car would be a dreaded Trabbie. But that was better than being impoverished in states where a handful of gangsters would own private jets and swan around in top-of-the-range Mercs. And I notice that Ron forgot to mention Yugoslavia.

Ake said somewhere else that we are the debris of global capitalism, or words to that effect. That is exactly it. The capitalists have no use for us, as we cannot provide the cheapest labour. Capital will flow to the many emerging nations that are more than willing to undercut us.

Where Ake is wrong is in putting his faith in the American people. The American people don't even have the voice to close Guantanamo, where innocent people are routinely subjected to the barbarism of force-feeding.

Subject: RE: BS: Obit: The Myth of Western Democracy
From: Stu
Date: 23 May 13 - 04:30 AM

"The best system devised has been capitalism combined with representative demoeracy."

If you had read and understood my original post, you might have noted I am discussing the fact unregulated capitalism does not work, and large private companies are now beginning to dictate policy. This is NOT "representative demoeracy" (sic), it's a new system where power lies with unelected, unaccountable people whose responsibility is to their shareholders and not the common good.


"Sweden is in fact heavily dependent on mostly large Swedish capitalists to fund its welfare state."

It's called 'tax' and it's the fact large companies are avoiding it here and in the US that we're discussing. How do you think anything is funded?


"No purely socialist system has ever worked"

No purely socialist system has ever been tried.

Subject: RE: BS: Obit: The Myth of Western Democracy
From: GUEST,Chris B (Born Again Scouser)
Date: 23 May 13 - 05:05 AM

In the light of yesterday's events in Woolwich, I'll take that 'Myth' over any of the alternatives on offer any day.

Subject: RE: BS: Obit: The Myth of Western Democracy
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 23 May 13 - 02:00 PM

Yesterday's event owes much to the myth.

Subject: RE: BS: Obit: The Myth of Western Democracy
From: Don Firth
Date: 23 May 13 - 04:39 PM

Most people think they know what Democracy is all about, but more often than not questioning reveals that they don't really know at all. For example, it is NOT simple majority rule. An example of majority rule is a lynch mob. LAWS are an absolutely necessary force in mitigating the tyranny of the majority. But what laws, and who decides?

Get and read

First Democracy: The Challenge of an Ancient Idea, by Paul Woodruff.

This book is an easy read, and it is a real eye-opener for those who may think that they know what Democracy is all about. It's the kind of book that one reads, and then keeps handy in order to go back and read many parts over again.

Athenian Democracy was far from perfect and they made a lot of mistakes. But it didn't come to an end because of its mistakes (which, for the most part, once they became aware of them, they quickly corrected), but because Athens was invaded by Philip of Macedonia (father of Alexander the Great). Athenian Democracy was working well up to that point.

Early on, they learned to avoid such things as aristocrats, the wealthy, and other would-be tyrants lobbying or bribing officials, because deliberating bodies such as juries and legislative entities were huge.   Juries were composed of 501 people, much too big to bribe, and were selected by lottery, from the general citizenship. And whenever possible, on the day of the trial, making bribery even more difficult.

Their equivalent of our Congress was composed of 6,000 self-selected citizens, the first to arrive on the day of deliberations.

Athenian citizens were expected to be well-educated and up on current affairs—and there were consequences if they were not. Up to and including banishment.

A very interesting chapter in the book is Chapter 10, the Afterward, entitled "Are Americans Ready for Democracy?"

A good question.

Get it. Read it.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Obit: The Myth of Western Democracy
From: mg
Date: 24 May 13 - 03:18 AM

of course capitalism can't self regulate any more than a river can self dam...it has to be regulated by we the people. and we the people are getting more and more powerful due to education, more transparency, the internet, people traveling more, more language learners, more eyes on all sorts of things..fewer people in many countries at the desperate poverty level..smaller families.....i am certainly not for unregulated capitalism..it pollutes, exploits etc. when in the hands of thieves etc. but we could combine it with a government supported job system for those who temporarily or permanently can not do the hustle and bustle to compete in it...there could be government run dairies, greenhouses, home construction etc..for those people,and I am one, who are not competitive by nature or culture or whatever. there can be workable ways to get the healthy underemployed population working and contributing and let the movers and shakers do their thing with regulation but with as much freedom as they can be trusted with.