BS: George Zimmerman defense-' Evidence withheld'

Subject: BS: Zimmerman defense-' Evidence withheld'
From: beardedbruce
Date: 30 May 13 - 11:50 AM

"ORLANDO, Fla. -- A court employee who retrieved photos and deleted text messages from Trayvon Martin's cellphone has been placed on administrative leave after an attorney testified that prosecutors didn't properly turn over the evidence to the defense, an attorney said Wednesday.

Former prosecutor Wesley White said he was ethically obligated to reveal that Fourth Judicial Circuit Information Technology Director Ben Kruidbos retrieved the data that weren't turned over.

Kruidbos was placed on leave shortly after White testified during a hearing in George Zimmerman's second-degree murder case on Tuesday. White said Kruidbos was interviewed by state attorney investigators twice before the action was taken.

White said he wasn't surprised of possible evidence violations by Zimmerman prosecutor Bernie de la Rionda.

"I was saddened by it, but I'm not surprised," he said.

White first learned about the evidence through Kruidbos more than a month ago, he said.

Phone and email messages left at the office of Fourth Judicial Circuit State Attorney Angela Corey were not immediately returned.

Zimmerman is charged with second-degree murder in 17-year-old Martin's killing and has pleaded not guilty, saying he acted in self-defense. Circuit Judge Debra Nelson has denied a defense motion to delay the trial, which scheduled to begin on June 10.

White led the Nassau County state attorney's office before resigning in December, citing differences of opinion with Corey. He is now in private practice.

White said the photos Kruidbos retrieved were of a hand holding a gun and one depicted drugs. The content of the text messages wasn't specified.

"I'm an officer of the court and I'm obliged to inform the court of any misconduct or any potential misconduct coming before the court. Whether it's by the defense or prosecution," White said.

The defense released photos of a gun, marijuana plant and Martin's text messages publicly, saying that if prosecutors planned to paint Zimmerman as the aggressor and Martin as the innocent bystander, they wanted the information to defend him. Attorneys won't be able to mention the teen's drug use, suspension from school and past fighting during opening statements at the trial, Nelson ruled Tuesday.

Nelson has set a full hearing on the turning over of evidence for next week.

Defense attorney Mark O'Mara has previously brought a handful of motions alleging that the state attorney's office had been slow to turn over other evidence.

White said his disclosure to the defense isn't sparked by any animosity toward his former employer."


Read more here: http://www.miamiherald.com/2013/05/29/3422519/lawyer-zimmerman-prosecutor-withheld.html#storylink=cpy

Subject: RE: BS: Zimmerman defense-' Evidence withheld'
From: Charmion
Date: 31 May 13 - 07:41 AM

If I understand correctly the decsion of the judge in this matter, the contents of the victim's cellphone (the photos and text messages in question) are irrelevant because the accused claims that it was the victim's behaviour *in the moments before the fatal shots were fired* that led him to fear for his life. The accused could not have known what photos and texts were on the victim's cellphone at that time, so those materials could not have influenced his interpretation of the victim's behaviour.

The judge's decision to exclude the photos and texts makes the ex-employee's act worse than a breach of discipline; it amounts to contempt of court, definitely a firing offence.

Subject: RE: BS: Zimmerman defense-' Evidence withheld'
From: beardedbruce
Date: 31 May 13 - 07:54 AM

More than contempt of court-

The problem is that the LAW requires the prosecution to provide ALL the evidence to the Defense- IN ALL CASES.

Just because "everyone" has already decided the outcome of the trial does NOT excuse this obvious violation of the defendant's rights.

Regardless of whether the evidence is relevant, it MUST be made available to the defense. The relevance is for the JUDGE to decide, and the defense has the right to appeal if it thinks otherwise.

Subject: RE: BS: Zimmerman defense-' Evidence withheld'
From: GUEST,gillymor
Date: 31 May 13 - 08:13 AM

Huffington Post.

Subject: RE: BS: Zimmerman defense-' Evidence withheld'
From: beardedbruce
Date: 31 May 13 - 08:26 AM

THAT was out over a year ago.

By THIS illegal attempt to withhold evidence from the defense, the entire case might be thrown out, and NO trail to determine the facts would occur.

Is that to be preferred????

Regardless of one's opinion of the shooting, it deserves to be tried in a fair, legal fashion, without opening up unwarranted areas for appeals or declarations of mistrial

Subject: RE: BS: Zimmerman defense-' Evidence withheld'
From: GUEST,gillymor
Date: 31 May 13 - 08:55 AM

and then hang him.

Subject: RE: BS: Zimmerman defense-' Evidence withheld'
From: beardedbruce
Date: 31 May 13 - 09:01 AM

You and the Red Queen....



Hang him FIRST, THEN have the trial.

Subject: RE: BS: Zimmerman defense-' Evidence withheld'
From: GUEST,gillymor
Date: 31 May 13 - 09:30 AM

He has the right to a fair hearing. I just hope this racist, wannabe cop doesn't walk on a technicality. On that first 911 tape it's pretty obvious he was itching to mete out some justice to an "asshole" in a hoodie.

Subject: RE: BS: Zimmerman defense-' Evidence withheld'
From: beardedbruce
Date: 31 May 13 - 09:35 AM

It is actions such as this, violating his rights, that WILL lead to those "technicalities"


EVERYONE should agree that the trial needs to be fair and legal.

Subject: RE: BS: Zimmerman defense-' Evidence withheld'
From: Elmore
Date: 31 May 13 - 11:10 AM

Sounds like the defense wants to blame the victim. Same old story.

Subject: RE: BS: Zimmerman defense-' Evidence withheld'
From: beardedbruce
Date: 31 May 13 - 11:14 AM

So that makes it OK to violate the law?

IS THAT THE LIBERAL VIEWPOINT????

Subject: RE: BS: Zimmerman defense-' Evidence withheld'
From: GUEST
Date: 31 May 13 - 11:54 AM

It ain't this liberal's viewpoint. As you noted earlier, if there are technicalities like this one popping up then he will get off.

Subject: RE: BS: Zimmerman defense-' Evidence withheld'
From: beardedbruce
Date: 31 May 13 - 11:56 AM

Thank you, Guest. I had assumed that there were some intelligent people here that could see the obvious, but was beginning to wonder.

Subject: RE: BS: Zimmerman defense-' Evidence withheld'
From: Bobert
Date: 31 May 13 - 12:35 PM

Zimmerman sees Martin...

Zimmerman calls police...

Police tell Zimmerman to remain in his vehicle...

Zimmerman disobeys police order...

Zimmerman kills Martin...

That's the case... Not pictures in Martin's cell phone...

What Zimmerman's attorney is trying to do is equivalent to blaming a rape victim for the way she looked...

This defense is shameful, immoral and should backfire on Zimmerman...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Zimmerman defense-' Evidence withheld'
From: beardedbruce
Date: 31 May 13 - 12:39 PM

So, Bobert,

YOU think that it is ok to violate the law when YOU think someone is guilty? YOU want to have him get odd because that law was violated?

THAT is what this thread is about- NOT his innocence or guilt, but the illegal actions of those, like you , that have decided it does not matter if he gets a fair or legal trial.

Subject: RE: BS: Zimmerman defense-' Evidence withheld'
From: Greg F.
Date: 31 May 13 - 12:53 PM

You're getting overexcited again, Beardy, and somewhat incoherent as a result. Also not good for your blood pressure, you know.

Subject: RE: BS: Zimmerman defense-' Evidence withheld'
From: KB in Iowa
Date: 31 May 13 - 12:56 PM

"Nelson has set a full hearing on the turning over of evidence for next week."

Seems to me we should wait for the ruling from this hearing before we decide if any laws were violated, don't you think?

Subject: RE: BS: Zimmerman defense-' Evidence withheld'
From: beardedbruce
Date: 31 May 13 - 01:08 PM

It is NOT important whether the evidence is permitted or not- THE FACT THAT IT WAS WITHHELD FROM THE DEFENSE is the legal point here.


The Judge can certainly disallow this evidence- BUT IT STILL HAS TO BE AVAILABLE TO THE DEFENSE, even if it is NOT allowed at the trial. The Prosecution is NOT allowed to decide what it turns over.

Subject: RE: BS: Zimmerman defense-' Evidence withheld'
From: Elmore
Date: 31 May 13 - 01:28 PM

Nobody thinks this guy shouldn't get a fair trial. Furthermore, if he gets off on a technicality, so be it. Despite some obvious exceptions, I have a great deal of faith in the jury system. However, I don't see the purpose of the thread, unless it was to irritate those of us who see a good deal of bigotry in our law enforcement and politics in this country and are sick and tired of it.

Subject: RE: BS: Zimmerman defense-' Evidence withheld'
From: KB in Iowa
Date: 31 May 13 - 01:35 PM

It is NOT important whether the evidence is permitted or not- THE FACT THAT IT WAS WITHHELD FROM THE DEFENSE is the legal point here.


The Judge can certainly disallow this evidence- BUT IT STILL HAS TO BE AVAILABLE TO THE DEFENSE, even if it is NOT allowed at the trial. The Prosecution is NOT allowed to decide what it turns over.

Is it not possible that the judge will determine that this particular 'evidence' was not germaine to the case and was therefore not something that needed to be turned over to the defense?

Subject: RE: BS: Zimmerman defense-' Evidence withheld'
From: beardedbruce
Date: 31 May 13 - 01:37 PM

"Former prosecutor Wesley White said he was ethically obligated to reveal that Fourth Judicial Circuit Information Technology Director Ben Kruidbos retrieved the data that weren't turned over.

White said he wasn't surprised of possible evidence violations by Zimmerman prosecutor Bernie de la Rionda.

"I was saddened by it, but I'm not surprised," he said.

....
"I'm an officer of the court and I'm obliged to inform the court of any misconduct or any potential misconduct coming before the court. Whether it's by the defense or prosecution," White said.






We have an example of an honest man ( the former prosecutor) seeing a potential miscarraige of justice ( if Zimmerman is let off because of the actions taken by the prosecution), and most in this thread turn around and jump on the defendant.

If THAT is an example of the " faith in the jury system" then maybe some need to be irritated. Why not just string him up from the nearest tree, since Bobert has already declared him guilty, and sees no need for the law to be followed in this case?

Subject: RE: BS: Zimmerman defense-' Evidence withheld'
From: beardedbruce
Date: 31 May 13 - 01:39 PM

KB,

That is what JUDGES do, NOT the prosecutors.


If YOU were in court, would YOU want the prosecutor to be able to withhold evidence that YOU DON'T KNOW about, and NOT have a judge rule on it?

Subject: RE: BS: Zimmerman defense-' Evidence withheld'
From: KB in Iowa
Date: 31 May 13 - 01:46 PM

"Nelson has set a full hearing on the turning over of evidence for next week."

I post the above again as a reference.

I will wait to see what the judge has to say in the hearing before deciding what really happened here. You see, I do have some faith in the system and am willing to let it play out.

Does the system always work? Of course not, I am just not ready to assume that in this case it has already failed.

Subject: RE: BS: Zimmerman defense-' Evidence withheld'
From: beardedbruce
Date: 31 May 13 - 01:50 PM

My concern is that it is OK for it to fail, in the posts of so many here that I would not trust to remain out of a lynch mob.

Subject: RE: BS: Zimmerman defense-' Evidence withheld'
From: GUEST
Date: 31 May 13 - 02:14 PM

'The Judge can certainly disallow this evidence- BUT IT STILL HAS TO BE AVAILABLE TO THE DEFENSE, even if it is NOT allowed at the trial. The Prosecution is NOT allowed to decide what it turns over.'

Bingo, BB. An' that's the truth!

Subject: RE: BS: Zimmerman defense-' Evidence withheld'
From: KB in Iowa
Date: 31 May 13 - 02:17 PM

'The Judge can certainly disallow this evidence- BUT IT STILL HAS TO BE AVAILABLE TO THE DEFENSE, even if it is NOT allowed at the trial. The Prosecution is NOT allowed to decide what it turns over.'

Bingo, BB. An' that's the truth!

Again, I will let the judge be the judge of that.

Subject: RE: BS: Zimmerman defense-' Evidence withheld'
From: GUEST,Futwick
Date: 31 May 13 - 02:22 PM

What is the point of this? It will go to trial soon enough and a judge can decide what's what. This thread seems to me to be nothing than stupid trolling.

Subject: RE: BS: Zimmerman defense-' Evidence withheld'
From: YorkshireYankee
Date: 31 May 13 - 02:40 PM

I'm with Bruce on this. Withholding evidence is unethical and unfair, whether done by the defense, the prosecution, the police or whoever.

I've been on the receiving end of such unethical treament in the past, and I won't soon forget it.

Subject: RE: BS: Zimmerman defense-' Evidence withheld'
From: Elmore
Date: 31 May 13 - 02:54 PM

Trolled again, damn it. Is this the same individual using different names?

Subject: RE: BS: Zimmerman defense-' Evidence withheld'
From: GUEST,Futwick
Date: 31 May 13 - 03:20 PM

I guess people can't read. IT IS NOT FOR US TO DECIDE THIS. THE CASE IS GOING TO TRIAL AND GODDAMN JUDGE WILL DECIDE ON THIS CASE. TAKE IT UP WITH HIM!!

Are we clear now?

Subject: RE: BS: Zimmerman defense-' Evidence withheld'
From: Greg F.
Date: 31 May 13 - 03:21 PM

However, I don't see the purpose of the thread,


There is none. Beardy doesn't have to have a purpose to post nonsensical crap ad nauseum.

Subject: RE: BS: Zimmerman defense-' Evidence withheld'
From: GUEST,gillymor
Date: 31 May 13 - 03:29 PM

I hear you Fut, but the real trial is the one that BB is conducting on all us liberal hypocrites. Basically it's the same show trial he conducts on most threads. He assigns us all one opinion and then tries to convict us all for it. He only has middling prosecutorial skills but can cut and paste blindfolded.

Subject: RE: BS: Zimmerman defense-' Evidence withheld'
From: GUEST
Date: 31 May 13 - 03:31 PM

". . . GODDAMN JUDGE WILL DECIDE ON THIS CASE. TAKE IT UP WITH HIM!!"

What if it ends up being a female judge? Huh? HUH?

Subject: RE: BS: Zimmerman defense-' Evidence withheld'
From: Greg F.
Date: 31 May 13 - 03:34 PM

BLINDFOLDED? Hell, he can cut and paste mountains of bullshit IN HIS SLEEP!

Subject: RE: BS: Zimmerman defense-' Evidence withheld'
From: GUEST
Date: 31 May 13 - 03:40 PM

In this instance he's right.

Subject: RE: BS: Zimmerman defense-' Evidence withheld'
From: Bobert
Date: 31 May 13 - 07:19 PM

Lets do a little review...

Zimmerman sees Martin and calls police...

Police dispatcher tells Zimmerman to stay in his vehicle and that real cops were on the way...

Zimmerman disobeys police and gets out of vehicle with a gun...

Zimmerman kills Martin...

That's the case here, folks...

What pictures are/were on Martin's phone have nothing to do with the facts...

Seems that Zimmerman's lawyer is trying to use a defense that if it were a rape the victim would be blames for looking good...

This is a very distasteful defense...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Zimmerman defense-' Evidence withheld'
From: YorkshireYankee
Date: 31 May 13 - 08:07 PM

Bobert, you've got me all confused, now!

I thought it was the prosecution withholding this evidence 'cos they didn't want the defense to even know about it. Am I wrong on this?

Thing is, if it's not right to withhold evidence, it's not right to withhold evidence - regardless of whether you think it will help a scumbag/hurt a victim (or vice versa).

Whether that evidence is allowed in to be heard during the trial is a separate issue entirely and - as has been pointed out - up to the judge.

Similarly, Nazis (in the US) have the right to freedom of speech, however distasteful I consider what they say (my background is Jewish).

I'm a liberal leftie, but we can't have one set of rules for those we like/approve of and another for those we don't. I'm also one of those who think that Zimmerman sounds like a sleazebag and was clearly not justified in what he did - but that still does not justify the prosecution withholding evidence that they're afraid might help his defense.

Just sayin'... :7)

Subject: RE: BS: Zimmerman defense-' Evidence withheld'
From: Bobert
Date: 31 May 13 - 08:11 PM

What I am getting out of this is that Zimmerman's lawyer wants to use photographs on Martin's phone as evidence from before the incident that Martin deserved to be murdered...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Zimmerman defense-' Evidence withheld'
From: GUEST
Date: 31 May 13 - 09:14 PM

"BY KYLE HIGHTOWER
ASSOCIATED PRESS
ORLANDO, Fla. -- A court employee who retrieved photos and deleted text messages from Trayvon Martin's cellphone has been placed on administrative leave after an attorney testified that prosecutors didn't properly turn over the evidence to the defense, an attorney said Wednesday.

Former prosecutor Wesley White said he was ethically obligated to reveal that Fourth Judicial Circuit Information Technology Director Ben Kruidbos retrieved the data that weren't turned over.

Kruidbos was placed on leave shortly after White testified during a hearing in George Zimmerman's second-degree murder case on Tuesday. White said Kruidbos was interviewed by state attorney investigators twice before the action was taken.

White said he wasn't surprised of possible evidence violations by Zimmerman prosecutor Bernie de la Rionda."

Part of the article BB was getting the info from. Read the article at

http://www.miamiherald.com/2013/05/29/3422519/lawyer-zimmerman-prosecutor-withheld.html

Subject: RE: BS: Zimmerman defense-' Evidence withheld'
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 31 May 13 - 09:21 PM

What an incomprehensible report. What kind of people do the Miami Herald employ to make such a dog's dinner of it?

Subject: RE: BS: Zimmerman defense-' Evidence withheld'
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 31 May 13 - 09:21 PM

What an incomprehensible report. What kind of people do the Miami Herald employ to make such a dog's dinner of it?

Subject: RE: BS: Zimmerman defense-' Evidence withheld'
From: Bobert
Date: 31 May 13 - 09:48 PM

This is a sideshow that Zimmerman's attorney is using to lay a big old smoke screen over the trial...

O.J. who???

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Zimmerman defense-' Evidence withheld'
From: GUEST,TIA
Date: 01 Jun 13 - 08:39 PM

Bobert has explained it in terms that anyone can understand.

Subject: RE: BS: Zimmerman defense-' Evidence withheld'
From: Bobert
Date: 01 Jun 13 - 08:56 PM

Thank you, TIA...

The last 20 years of my working life when I was in business for myself I had to represent my company in court at least a couple dozen times and had a reputation of destroying local attorneys in court... I never lost a case... No brag, just fact...

The law is pretty simple...

The way that attorneys practice it ain't...

But when you just strip off all the shit they pile on then you win...

Zimmerman's attorney is piling on truckload after truckload of shit...

Prosecution should be able to shovel all the shit off the facts...

All depends on the judge... If the judge is some Southern racist, he or she will allow Zimmerman's attorney to put Martin's prior pics from his cell phone into evidence...

If he isn't a racist then he'll disallow...

Pretty simple stuff here...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Zimmerman defense-' Evidence withheld'
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Jun 13 - 10:39 PM

Good Christ.

The prosecution is not allowed to keep any information it hopes to use from the defense. That's the law. It was instituted to prevent just such happening. You all are entitled to your respective opinions, but you are NOT entitled to interpret law in anyway that harms the accused. That's it, that's all.

Subject: RE: BS: Zimmerman defense-' Evidence withheld'
From: YorkshireYankee
Date: 02 Jun 13 - 12:22 AM

"What I am getting out of this is that Zimmerman's lawyer wants to use photographs on Martin's phone as evidence from before the incident that Martin deserved to be murdered..."

Bobert, I agree with you that Zimmerman's defense should not be allowed to use that information. The judge in the case should not allow it.

BUT... look at it this way: who do you think should be in charge of whether evidence is allowable in court or not: people like the prosecution and defense - who have a definite interest in wanting the case to go a certain way - or the judge, who is at least supposed to be impartial?

If you want the judge to have this power, then he must be aware of all the evidence, and both defense and prosecution must make whatever evidence they have available to the court. If you don't require both defense & prosecution to turn over all their evidence, then you are leaving the decision in their extremely partial hands (now there's an interesting image!) - and they are much less likely to be impartial than the judge.

For example: if you, Bobert, have been charged with running over some poor kittycat, and the prosecution find photos on the kitty's cellphone showing you playing happily with said kitty, do you want them to be the ones who get to decide whether that information is/is not "relevant" enough to be included in the information presented in the trial? Or would you rather have the judge make that call?

I have personal experience of police and prosecution working together to withhold evidence (even though that is illegal) which would have proved I was innocent, and I can tell you that letting one side or the other control what evidence comes to light is not the way to go. Make both sides reveal everything they know, and let a (hopefully impartial) judge decide what the jury gets to hear.

(Of course, if the judge is not impartial, then there's very little hope for anything resembling a fair trial, but that's not the issue under discussion here...)

Subject: RE: BS: Zimmerman defense-' Evidence withheld'
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 02 Jun 13 - 06:27 AM

Sorry Bobert, but on this one I have to agree with Yorkshire Yankee.

If the rule says all evidence known to the prosecution must also be known to the defence, then that is what should happen.

I am inclined to think that the rule itself is wrong, but, umtil it is revoked it must be obeyed.

The judge will have the final word and will be aware of the likely effect on a jury, so the decision will be based on his assessment of that effect.

He will, if honest, rule it inadmissible, on the basis that Trayvon Martin is not on trial.

If US law is anything like UK law, the prosecution will not be allowed to evince evidence of Zimmerman's previous record until and unless a guilty verdict is returned.

Therefore it would be unfair to allow Martin's character to be blackened by the defence, using evidence outwith the scope of the incident being tried.

Still, the bottom line is, the prosecution were out of order in failing to pass on that evidence.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Zimmerman defense-' Evidence withheld'
From: Bobert
Date: 02 Jun 13 - 09:32 AM

This all boils down to what is "evidence"...

Let's say that Sallie got pregnant in high school by one of the football players and ended up getting an abortion...

Ten years later she is raped by someone else...

Should the high school incident be admissible "evidence" that she deserved to be raped???

So back to Martin...

Will either of you tell me why you think that pictures on Martin's cell phone that were taken prior to his murder that had NOTHING to do with his murder is "evidence" in the case???

I mean, "evidence" is about the facts surrounding a crime... It's not a fishing expedition thru a victim's past life...

I disagree with both of you... And I trust that any reasonable judge will tell Zimmerman's lawyer to stick with the case at hand...

This "discovery" is way beyond the any sane interpretation of "evidence"...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Zimmerman defense-' Evidence withheld'
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 02 Jun 13 - 12:54 PM

The sanity or lack of same of potential evidence is to be decided by the judge---not the prosecutor and certainly not by Bobert.

Subject: RE: BS: Zimmerman defense-' Evidence withheld'
From: YorkshireYankee
Date: 02 Jun 13 - 01:57 PM

No, Bobert, the high school incident absolutely should NOT be considered admissible evidence. And I, too, trust that "any reasonable judge will tell Zimmerman's lawyer to stick with the case at hand".

BUT, this is not about whether those photos are admissible evidence.

What it is about is: WHO DECIDES whether or not they are admissible?

Do you want interested parties to determine whether or not something is admissibe - or someone who is supposed to be neutral? (Defence and prosecution are not even supposed to be neutral - it's their job not to be.)

The discovery IS evidence - just not admissible evidence concerning this case. But the prosecution should not be the one(s) to make that decision. I don't wish to just blithely trust they will resist the temptation to ignore evidence that undermines their argument(s). (Likewise, I don't trust the defense to do so, either.)

Here's a thought experiment: lets pretend there are texts on Sallie's phone saying she is angry at the defendant and has decided to punish him by accusing him of rape. Do you want the prosecution to be legally allowed to decide this is "inadmissible evidence"?

I would prefer to have the judge decide.

The same law which helps someone who is innocent one day may well do the opposite on another (or even the very same) day.

Our laws (are supposed to) help protect nasty, guilty scumbags as well as innocent people - because we are fallible and don't necessarily know which is which.

Trying to be fair means you legally must treat people the same way, whether you think they "deserve" it or not. Does this make any sense to you yet?