BS: Bury the Ashes?

Subject: BS: Bury the Ashes?
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 11 Jul 13 - 07:39 AM

Re the ‪‎Ashes‬, my argument as to why test ‪cricket‬ (unlike limited-over cricket) is one of the worst sports in the world: an airswing is worse than an edge but, in test cricket, only the latter may be punished; or, in verse, my poem "Dot-Ball" - http://walkaboutsverse.blogspot.co.uk/2010/10/walkaboutsverse-165-of-230.html

Subject: RE: BS: Bury the Ashes?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 11 Jul 13 - 07:56 AM

Philistine.

Subject: RE: BS: Bury the Ashes?
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 11 Jul 13 - 08:02 AM

...if an airswing was punished with dismissal, it would certainly speed things up...strike-one and your out..?

Subject: RE: BS: Bury the Ashes?
From: dbranno
Date: 11 Jul 13 - 08:38 AM

There was an ancient cricketer
He stoppeth one of three
The others go through to the 'keeper
Or strike him on the knee

Under the influence of bash-and-crash short forms, the longer game of Test Cricket may be doomed.
The current crop of sportstars and sportsfiends have not the required concentration methinks.
A twagedy old boy, what? The game of empire...

Subject: RE: BS: Bury the Ashes?
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 11 Jul 13 - 08:38 AM

WAV.....What on earth are you talking about? Air Swing? What on earth is that? (Must be an Australian reference....Oh I forgot)

Subject: RE: BS: Bury the Ashes?
From: catspaw49
Date: 11 Jul 13 - 08:48 AM

Dunno' Ralphie, but I'm hoping this doesn't trigger another rash of posting the delusional and repetitive crap from the King of Bad Poetry and Bigoted Bullshit.......***sigh***............


Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: Bury the Ashes?
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 11 Jul 13 - 08:53 AM

...an airswing, a swing-and-a-miss, where those in the slips may, sarcastically, say "well left, sir"...not sure what they'd say to Spaw..?

Subject: RE: BS: Bury the Ashes?
From: Rapparee
Date: 11 Jul 13 - 09:55 AM

I thought this was about a cremation.

Subject: RE: BS: Bury the Ashes?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 11 Jul 13 - 10:05 AM

It is, Rapparee -

The series is named after a satirical obituary published in The Sporting Times in 1882 following the match at The Oval, in which Australia beat England in England for the first time. The obituary stated that English cricket had died, and the body will be cremated and the ashes taken to Australia.

Cheers

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Bury the Ashes?
From: Bill D
Date: 11 Jul 13 - 10:42 AM

"...the body will be cremated and the ashes taken to Australia"

What good is transportation if you can't get any work out of 'em afterwards?

Subject: RE: BS: Bury the Ashes?
From: catspaw49
Date: 11 Jul 13 - 12:06 PM

I thought the ashes were cremated Cricket fans. How the hell anyone even remotely alive and breathing can stare for weeks on end (it seems) at a Cricket game is more than I can comprehend. I think they die and no none notices........

Boring and incomprehensible at the absolute best and a possible cause murder by boredom at the worst is the only to describe Cricket..............also Wavy's alleged poetry.


Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: Bury the Ashes?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 11 Jul 13 - 01:25 PM

And that bullshit comes from a native of a country whose national game consists of someone hurling a ball at someone else, who swipes at it with a cudgel and almost always misses, gets two swipes and tries to run in a circle, usually failing miserably. It's boring crap. No wonder the spectators spend most of the game fetching beer and plates of food - it's more exciting than what's going on ( or more likely not going on) on the field.

Baseball - the game where nothing happens for hours on end. In the UK, it's called 'rounders' and its played by schoolgirls.

Subject: RE: BS: Bury the Ashes?
From: GUEST,Musket between courses
Date: 11 Jul 13 - 01:38 PM

Eyup Backwoodsman, they don't like it up em you know. .. Years ago Channel 5, having got a contract to show American baseball (dropped it when viewing figures were piss poor) ran billboard adverts of a baseball player with the caption The Future of Cricket. Nice to see them with egg on their face.

Had the day off today and been at Trent Bridge.

Can't get over excited about limited over stuff. That is a better comparison to baseball. Come out and whack the bloody ball. No opportunity to get line and length, no judicious use of the night watch man. .... Mind you, still better than rounders.

Long ish drive back to The Isle, worth it though.

Subject: RE: BS: Bury the Ashes?
From: catspaw49
Date: 11 Jul 13 - 02:51 PM

LMAO....I love it.......But I agree with Robin Williams. Cricket is baseball on Valium.


Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: Bury the Ashes?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 11 Jul 13 - 03:45 PM

He got it wrong. Cricket is baseball with a brain.

Subject: RE: BS: Bury the Ashes?
From: catspaw49
Date: 11 Jul 13 - 04:07 PM

It just isn't used in Cricket though and has been atrophied by games that never end. One game is as long as the entire MLB season.

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: Bury the Ashes?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 11 Jul 13 - 04:35 PM

Spaw, you're showing your complete ignorance of the game, and you're starting to make yourself look stupid. I'd suggest you button it up before you make a complete cock of yourself.

You don't - perhaps can't - understand cricket because it's a far more complex game than the comparatively simple baseball, its not just swipe and hope and, by your own admission, you have a short attention span. Your loss, but FFS stop attacking cricket just because you're not mentally equipped to understand or appreciate it.

Subject: RE: BS: Bury the Ashes?
From: GUEST,Jack Sprocket
Date: 11 Jul 13 - 04:48 PM

Words All Vacuous has probably never watched a game of cricket. Penalise "air shots"? How? Why? The purpose of the bowler is to knock the bails off, or trap the batsman into HITTING the ball into the air for a catch, or defending his wicket illegally with his legs, or being out of his ground when the bails are removed. The purpose of the batsman is to make runs, either by running between the wickets or by making the ball reaching the boundary. Hitting the ball is incidental to this; he does it (if necessary) to prevent the ball hitting the wicket, or to get the ball either to the boundary or far enough from a fielder that he (and his partner) can run between the wickets before it is returned.

The art of the bowler is to force the batsman to hit the ball where he doesn't want to, or to fool him into thinking it will miss his wicket when it's on target; the art of the batsman is to anticipate the bowler's guile and to use it to get runs (which incidentally is why Boycott... oh, never mind).

Subject: RE: BS: Bury the Ashes?
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 11 Jul 13 - 06:43 PM

...as I go onto say in the above (limited gobbledegook) poem, limited-over cricket is a far better game, because the bowler does get rewarded for beating the bat altogether, in that one of the batting side's limited deliveries has been used up, without any addition to their tally - provided the wicket keeper is on the ball, i.e.

Subject: RE: BS: Bury the Ashes?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 11 Jul 13 - 09:21 PM

JK Rowland has Quidditch as being relatively unpopular among American wizards, as being too complicated and lasting too long. She has them preferring a modified game called Quodpot involving an exploding Quaffle...

Subject: RE: BS: Bury the Ashes?
From: GUEST,Frank
Date: 12 Jul 13 - 03:28 AM

Cricket is a game of two sides, one side is in, and the other side is out.
The side that is out, tries to get the side that is in out. When the side that was out is now in, the side that was in but now out, tries to get the side that was out but is now in out. Understood?

BTW, what a great knock from 19 year old Ashton Agar on debut. 98.

Musket between courses - looked for you in the crowd on telly, but must have missed you.!

Subject: RE: BS: Bury the Ashes?
From: GUEST,Musket waving
Date: 12 Jul 13 - 03:46 AM

The stand to the right (left looking at the telly I suppose) of Trent Bridge Inn. 3/4 of the way up, in the middle.

Could only get the one day, up to me nuts with meetings today.

Subject: RE: BS: Bury the Ashes?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 12 Jul 13 - 05:46 PM

I see the grand old English tradition of cheating when playing Australia has been revived in the current match. Michael Clarke's choice to take advantage of an umpire's mistake when he knew he'd been caught out isn't quite in the same league as the introduction of bodyline bowling back in 1932, since it didn't involve risking killing anyone, but in the old expression, it defintely wasn't cricket.

I rather assume it will backfire badly.

Subject: RE: BS: Bury the Ashes?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 13 Jul 13 - 03:07 AM

You're right of course, Kevin, but it's not limited to England cricket - at times, they all take whatever advantage they can, and you can be certain that, given the opportunity, the Aussies would do the same.

It's not cricket, but it is human nature!

Subject: RE: BS: Bury the Ashes?
From: GUEST,Musket being patriotic
Date: 13 Jul 13 - 09:25 AM

Australia tried their own version of the body line back in the early 80s. Beefy swatted them to the boundary and Boycott asked for more as they were easy to deflect.

It used to be that a batsman walked but that was before 3rd umpire and cameras. Playing to the officials is what is expected in any sport. Technically, you are in till the umpires agree you are out. Ages since I dusted off an old Wisden......

Subject: RE: BS: Bury the Ashes?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 13 Jul 13 - 10:38 AM

Cheated gets copied, and in time becomes universal. There was a time when defending a penalty in football was seen as pretty dodgy. Football commentators will regularly talk about someone winning a free kick when a foul by the opponent is seen as having being cleverly provoked.

But I think the line should always be drawn against intentionally dangerous acts, and against actions like Clarke's. Failing to penalise it retrospctively is a way of ensuring that others do it.

Subject: RE: BS: Bury the Ashes?
From: Pete Jennings
Date: 13 Jul 13 - 10:40 AM

Michael Clarke? I thought it was Stuart Broad...unless there were two of them who didn't walk?

Subject: RE: BS: Bury the Ashes?
From: GUEST,Ed
Date: 13 Jul 13 - 11:29 AM

McGrath,

Broad did NOT cheat. He acted entirely within the the laws of cricket. Nearly all of the recent players, both English and Australian, that I have heard comment on the event agree that he did the right thing.

The outrage is pretty much a media invention. Now whether he acted within the 'spirit' of the game is a different question.

Subject: RE: BS: Bury the Ashes?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 13 Jul 13 - 11:46 AM

Which is pretty much what I was saying.
I don't like it, but unless and until the Laws are amended, it will continue to happen, and ALL sides will do it.

Subject: RE: BS: Bury the Ashes?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 13 Jul 13 - 11:49 AM

I suspect Kevin knows this, of course, but was allowing himself to indulge in a little Oirish mischief in singling out England. :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Bury the Ashes?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 13 Jul 13 - 03:05 PM

It's the claim to be above that kind of that thing. As with the stuff about Maradona and the Hand of God.

Slip of the tongue there about Mchael Clarke. Though I can quite imagine he'd likely be up for it too...

Subject: RE: BS: Bury the Ashes?
From: GUEST,Ed
Date: 13 Jul 13 - 03:14 PM

But Maradona WAS cheating. Broad wasn't. Rather a big difference, I think.

Subject: RE: BS: Bury the Ashes?
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 13 Jul 13 - 03:16 PM

I think the last four days of cricket has been spellbinding, the match hovering between the two sides frequently. England appear to have the upper hand at the close of play today, but I thought that on Thursday lunchtime before Ashton Agar came to the crease. What a debut, even I was willing him to get his 50, before the bugger went on to get 98. Brilliant cricket.

Subject: RE: BS: Bury the Ashes?
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 13 Jul 13 - 06:09 PM

...as I say, I'm not a fan of test-cricket and I'd rather listen to the chants, drums and flauting of Amerindians/First Nations/Native Americans, but I'm enough of a realist to agree that (rather than dying a death from limited over cricket) it has become "the new rock 'n' roll". Via the news, I see that it's not just the Ashes that pack the grounds these days.

Subject: RE: BS: Bury the Ashes?
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 13 Jul 13 - 06:29 PM

Having been persuaded by my nephew to visit last year, some pics of Bowral, where Don Bradman learnt to bat - https://plus.google.com/photos/106493534240943918991/albums/5890139692999290609

Subject: RE: BS: Bury the Ashes?
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 14 Jul 13 - 10:33 AM

What a fantastic match, it could have so easily gone to Australia but fortunately for England the final wicket was taken with them just 14 runs short. It has been one of the great test matches. Credit to both sides for a brilliant sporting spectacle.

Subject: RE: BS: Bury the Ashes?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 14 Jul 13 - 10:54 AM

Yes; but what a disappointing end, dependent on that rather inexpressive technology, while we all had to wait to see whether the third umpire had seen or heard anything. Would have been far more interesting if the batsman had been dismissed by a brilliant diving catch; or, alternatively, if the 14 runs needed had been gained by 2 4s and a 6 in a single over.

Much to be said for all this goal-line, Hawkeye, DRS hot-spot caper. But has robbed rather a lot of the human element.

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Bury the Ashes?
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 14 Jul 13 - 01:51 PM

Just saw it on the news and, as I said atop, if Haddin had made a WORSE effort and missed it completely, the match would not have been over; all sports have their strengths and weaknesses but test-cricket has this huge weakness.

Subject: RE: BS: Bury the Ashes?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 14 Jul 13 - 03:46 PM

Do you understand anything at all about the art and game of cricket? Based on the above post, I'd say the answer to that question would be "Fuck all".

Subject: RE: BS: Bury the Ashes?
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 14 Jul 13 - 05:53 PM

Missing the ball completely IS a worse effort than managing (as Haddin, e.g., just did) to get an edge, Blackwoodsman. (I played junior cricket, in a low grade, for just 2 seasons - managing to carry my bat on one occasion, and spin both ways.)

Subject: RE: BS: Bury the Ashes?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 15 Jul 13 - 02:12 AM

And, presumably, in the strange place that is WAV-World, the efforts and skills of the bowler have no influence on the outcome? Does it not strike you that the batsman may make a good attempt at a shot, which is beaten by an even better ball from the bowler?

Cricket is a very complex, multi-faceted endeavour, and to try to express it as a simple 'hit = good, miss = bad' kind of game is to do it the greatest of disservices, and reduce it to the banality and gracelessness of, e.g. Baseball.

Subject: RE: BS: Bury the Ashes?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 15 Jul 13 - 02:13 AM

"Which is beaten by an even better effort from the bowler?

Subject: RE: BS: Bury the Ashes?
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 15 Jul 13 - 06:15 AM

Missing the ball completely IS a worse effort than managing (as Haddin, e.g., just did) to get an edge

I'll try but will probably get pulled up on a few things...

OK, a batsman may be lucky in playing and missing completely but the last thing a batsman wants to do is get an edge - it could go anywhere - often to slips or the wicket keeper. He may get away with it, even score runs from it but he's not in control.

The batsman wants to either play a controlled shot (including just defending his stumps) or leave the ball when a) it's safe to do so and b) he doesn't believe he is going to gain anything by hitting it and he would be taking an unnecessary risk in trying to do so (in the limited overs forms, a batsman is more likely to try to score runs from every ball. In test cricket one can get very annoyed when a batsman takes a wild slash at a ball he had no need to play and gets himself out - it's giving his wicket away).

A bowler doesn't just try to hit the stumps. He tries to "trick" the batsman into making the wrong decisions or play poorly judged shots.

Subject: RE: BS: Bury the Ashes?
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 15 Jul 13 - 07:29 AM

If the rule is changed such that an air-swing is out, then umpires would merely have to decide if the batsman aimed to hit the ball or not..?

Subject: RE: BS: Bury the Ashes?
From: GUEST
Date: 15 Jul 13 - 07:37 AM

If the rule is changed such that an air-swing is out

...then you'd be playing baseball.

Subject: RE: BS: Bury the Ashes?
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 15 Jul 13 - 07:38 AM

I can only imagine such a rule killing the game.

In test cricket, it is enough that that particular delivery was a moral victory to the bowler.

Subject: RE: BS: Bury the Ashes?
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 15 Jul 13 - 07:50 AM

Guest - I seem to recall that in baseball it's THREE strikes and you are out.

Subject: RE: BS: Bury the Ashes?
From: GUEST
Date: 15 Jul 13 - 08:01 AM

You're right.

OK, so in your new 'improved' test cricket, every miss is given out?

It's not going to be a particularly long game is it?

Plus, as one of the many consequences, bowlers would intentionally bowl as wide as legally possible. Not very interesting to watch...

Subject: RE: BS: Bury the Ashes?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 15 Jul 13 - 08:22 AM

"Plus, as one of the many consequences, bowlers would intentionally bowl as wide as legally possible. Not very interesting to watch..."

Yup, just like Baseball. Boring crap.

Subject: RE: BS: Bury the Ashes?
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 15 Jul 13 - 09:06 AM

WAV from which nation do you hail, do you have cricket there as a spectator sport. If so risk boring yourself one afternoon and go and watch a game. It can be fascinating. Adversely are you being deliberately naïve?

This last test match has been fantastic, not much done in our house over the five days, far too enthralled with the cricket.

To try and make a simile, cricket is like chess with men and ball, moving the players around to your best advantage.

I suppose you could make a comparison with Baseball ........... and draughts.

Subject: RE: BS: Bury the Ashes?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 15 Jul 13 - 10:21 AM

Or tiddlywinks ~~ no joke!; very skilful game. The most brilliant girl in my wife's year at Newnham, Classical Scholar, double ** First, married that year's captain of the University tiddlywinks team. We stayed in touch for many years. They appeared ideally happy.

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Bury the Ashes?
From: IanC
Date: 15 Jul 13 - 10:54 AM

The difference between Test Cricket and most other sport/games is that the others are a battle, whereas cricket is a war.

In a war, tactics and technique just aren't enough. You need to marshall your resources for the longer term destruction of the enemy.

:-)

Subject: RE: BS: Bury the Ashes?
From: GUEST,MikeL2
Date: 15 Jul 13 - 02:38 PM

Hi

I agree with Raggytash and others who thought that this was a brilliant Test Match.

It was exciting stuff to watch as the match continually swung to and fro. Of course there were some "iffy" moments and some controversial
ones too.

I like Raggy's comparison of Cricket to Baseball as one of Chess with draughts ( checkers). Not only do the fielding side have to know every batsman's weaknesses and strengths and to set the fielders to attempt to stop the batsman scoring, but also the batsmen have to try to memorise and visualise the field placings and try to pierce the defences.

"war" was a good word to describe Test Cricket; especially England v Australia. I await the forthcoming games with expectancy and some anxiety. This Aussie team have shown that they are not going to lie down and let England roll over them.

Michael....I understand your comment about the way the last wicket fell and agree that a catch like Cook's for the wicket before this one would have been a wonderful finish to a thoroughly exciting game.....but.....I'll take to ending as it came because a win is a win !!

I have tickets for the match at Old Trafford....wouldn't it be just great if Jimmy Anderson could produce another match-winning performance on his own ground.

Kind Regards

MikeL2

Subject: RE: BS: Bury the Ashes?
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 15 Jul 13 - 04:22 PM

MikeL2 ....................... I am envious, tickets for a test at Old Trafford, against the "old enemy".

My idea of bliss, sunny day, bottle of wine, England 560 for one declared at tea on the second day, Australia bowled out for 200 on the third.

In my dreams !!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Bury the Ashes?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 15 Jul 13 - 04:58 PM

Actually, without wanting to be too po-faced or humourless or puritanical about it ~~ but "war" is actually a very unfortunate word in the context IMO. Remember Boris Becker when he was once eliminated rather early from Wimbledon, and some silly reporter asked him in tones of deepest woe to comment, obviously hoping for tears and hysterics. "I lost a game of tennis," he said. "That's all. There wasn't a war. Nobody died."

Wise words...

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Bury the Ashes?
From: GUEST,roderick warner
Date: 15 Jul 13 - 07:12 PM

I like baseball and cricket - different games. Less boring than most 'folk' music, imo...

Subject: RE: BS: Bury the Ashes?
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 15 Jul 13 - 07:18 PM

Did you see the final Becker lost to his compatriot Michael Stich - I didn't see any "tears" (M) but there were plenty of "hysterics" from Boris - it wasn't cricket.

Raggytash - I was actually born in St. Mary's hospital, Manchester, the day Alf Ramsey's English team won the World Cup (not cricket, either), before being brought up in Australia...http://walkaboutsverse.blogspot.co.uk/.

Back to cricket - a sarcastic "well left" from the slips or wicket- keeper following an air-swing only really applies to test-cricket, because, as I keep saying, in limited-over cricket the bowler gets rewarded with a dot-ball for being too good for the batsman.

Subject: RE: BS: Bury the Ashes?
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 15 Jul 13 - 08:04 PM

Oh WAV....Not that bloody Alf Ramsey story again (for the 100th time). Give it a rest. And what has football got to with cricket anyway? You obviously enjoy Limited overs cricket. Matches your limited attention span methinks. Nobody is going to take up your crackpot ideas any decade soon. Particularly after the amazing game we witnessed last week. If you don't like Test cricket. Don't watch it.....Simples

Subject: RE: BS: Bury the Ashes?
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 16 Jul 13 - 09:54 AM

If Haddin had made a WORSE effort, Ralphie, and missed the thing completely, you would have had a bit more "test" cricket.

Subject: RE: BS: Bury the Ashes?
From: Gutcher
Date: 16 Jul 13 - 07:00 PM

I never ever thought I would have had the opportunity of praising the sportsmanship and superior behavior of snooker players over that of cricket players.                                                                                     Having been brought up on a diet of cricket as a game played by gentlemen whose whole ethos was to set an example to us lesser mortals, but, as in many fields, when the lure of filthy lucre enters the equation morals in this modern world are very easily dispensed with.
This series will always be tainted by the unsporting behavior of one man who, had he been a gentleman, would not have taken advantage of an umpires error. It certainly ruined for me what, up to that point, had been an excellent match.

Subject: RE: BS: Bury the Ashes?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 17 Jul 13 - 03:06 AM

But this is all nothing new, despite the tone of some posts. A letter in today's Times reminds us of an incident when Bradman failed to walk when obviously out, and Hammond's appeal was turned down. That was in 1946.

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Bury the Ashes?
From: GUEST,Ed
Date: 17 Jul 13 - 03:46 AM

MtheGM is, of course, right.

Loathed though I am to link to the Daily Mail, this article from 2002 reinforces the point.

To suggest that this series will always be tainted is franky absurd.

Subject: RE: BS: Bury the Ashes?
From: GUEST
Date: 17 Jul 13 - 04:11 AM

Subject: RE: BS: Bury the Ashes?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 17 Jul 13 - 04:12 AM

A lot of it is folklore, for that matter. I was brought up on a slightly different version of the W G Grace story told in that Mail article linked by Ed: that Grace was clearly stumped, but the square leg umpire said emphatically, "Not out"; then, turning to the wicket-keeper, added, "And you look here, young man; all these people have come here to see Dr Grace bat, not to watch your monkey-tricks!"

Same story in two different folkloric variants? Or two different occasions? Or never really happened, but se non è vero, è ben trovato ?

Who can tell?

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Bury the Ashes?
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 17 Jul 13 - 04:14 AM

I think there always will be a bit of controversy when someone is as clearly out as Broad was and opts not to walk. Personally, I'd prefer to see players walk but recognize that as the batsman's choice and am not sure I can complain too much as a player not walking is acting within the laws of the game.

From the other side, I was interested to read that Adam Gilchrist had been accused of showing disrespect to the umpires for his decisions to walk so perhaps you can't win either way.

As for tainting the series. I don't know how the rest of it will go by I think this particular match will be remembered for its twists and turns, Agar's remarkable innings at no 11 and an exiting finish. OK, there were a couple of controversial points (Trott given out was another) but I think very few would see the game itself as anything other than an excellent test match.

Subject: RE: BS: Bury the Ashes?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 17 Jul 13 - 04:39 AM

Graves are very expensive. Maybe they should just flush me down the toilet. I've done that to turtles and goldfish, so it would serve me right. I buried the cat, though...

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Bury the Ashes?
From: Gutcher
Date: 17 Jul 13 - 05:08 AM

In the historical examples given there may or may not have been room for reasonable doubt, I ignore the apocryphal stories of W. Grace, in the current debate Broad had no excuse, he should have walked without even awaiting the umpires decision.
As a neutral supporter of test match cricket I do not see the view I take on this matter as absurd. I am sure many of those debating the same will be of my opinion.

Subject: RE: BS: Bury the Ashes?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 17 Jul 13 - 05:25 AM

Why did he need an 'excuse/? "Should" by what compulsion, Gutcher? I can see the reason for your opinion. But it is surely at least equally arguable that to promote a gentlemanly convention into an invariable rule offers an alarming precedent for all sorts of unreasonable expectations to become engrained. I do not see how sanctions can be applied to anyone who has broken no laws, be these the laws of a nation or those of a sport. The worst that should happen to him would be that he might be booed by some in the crowd and ostracised by some in the Pavilion. What do you think should have happened to him?

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Bury the Ashes?
From: GUEST,Ed
Date: 17 Jul 13 - 05:35 AM

OK, 'absurd' was possibly too strong a word. I do however think that the importance of the incident is being much overplayed.

One point that hasn't been given much prominence are the particular pressures of 'gentlemanly' responses to such situations within a team environment.

Gutcher mentions snooker and I've heard various discussions regarding the scrupulous honesty of golfers. I'd suggest that it's a hell of a lot easier when you only have yourself to consider.

Phil Tufnell made an astute point: "If you walked off with one run to win the Ashes, your team-mates wouldn't talk to you." This is before even thinking about your influence on other people's prize money (or 'filthy lucre' if you must, I suppose).

Additionally, and we'll never know, what if Broad had been instructed not to walk? Ian Botham is reported as saying, when captain, that "anyone who walks will have me to answer to."

Subject: RE: BS: Bury the Ashes?
From: Gutcher
Date: 17 Jul 13 - 07:02 AM

We are all programmed from childhood in different ways. What I personally deem to be the right code to live by is obviously not that followed by these profesional sportsmen and their supporters whose attitude seems to be win at any cost no matter how many millions of people are aware of the route followed to achieve that end.
As regards individual sports such as golf I have a hazy recollection of some controversy surrounding the actions of Colin Montgomery in an important match, the details of which escape me at this time.
Many late night snooker matches were enlivened by a player drawing the referees attention to an unseen foul commited by him, that was true sportsmanship in my book.
If cricketers are afraid of the adverse opinions of their fellow teammates this is a sad reflection on the moral compass of the whole team and of the supporters who encourage such actions.

Subject: RE: BS: Bury the Ashes?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 17 Jul 13 - 07:19 AM

Your moral upbringing in this particular was clearly exemplary, Gutcher, and much to be respected. But it does seem to have left you a bit doctrinaire as to its universal applicability, a bit intolerant of deviance from it ~~ and prone to reject any hint of precedents to this outrage [as you view it] which you refer to as if it was unique in the history of sport, and no such thing had ever been heard of before: so what if the Grace stories may be a bit apocryphal and folkloric as I said?; the Bradman 1946 one wasn't.

I wonder whether such intolerance and lack of empathy were the effect that those who imbued you {'programmed' as you call it} from childhood onwards with such excellent principles, would have been aiming for, or would have approved.

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Bury the Ashes?
From: GUEST,Ed
Date: 17 Jul 13 - 07:27 AM

How many times does it have to be said? This was NOT "win at any cost" (with the inference that cheating is to be condoned).

There was no foul play, no law broken, no intentional deception (how often have players from ALL nationalities rubbed their forearms having been hit on the glove?).

I take your point, Gutcher but I think calling the players' 'moral compass' into question is a little extreme.

Subject: RE: BS: Bury the Ashes?
From: MikeL2
Date: 17 Jul 13 - 09:54 AM

Hi Raggy

Sometimes dreams do come true !!!

I have watched many Tests at Old Trafford and at one time both my son and I were members there.

The first England V Australia Test I saw there was in 1948.

I remember having to get up very early in the morning and go and queue for three hours to get in.

It was the only time that I saw Don Bradman ( surely still acknowledged as the best ever batsman in the World ?)

He disappointed this time though, scoring only a handful of runs - bowled by Dick Pollard - very popular as Dick was a Lancashire player.

Cyril Washbrook - another Lancashire Player scored a double century and then 80 odd not out in front of his own crowd.

I saw Lindwall and Miller who were to become a fantastic opening attack in future years.

If I remember correctly the infamous Manchester rain came to the rescue of the Aussies.

""Those were the days my Friend""

Cheers

Mike

Subject: RE: BS: Bury the Ashes?
From: Pete Jennings
Date: 17 Jul 13 - 09:56 AM

Deciding if a batsman is in or out is the umpire's job, with or without the aid of the square leg/DRS umpires. End of story.

Subject: RE: BS: Bury the Ashes?
From: MikeL2
Date: 17 Jul 13 - 10:29 AM

Hi

An interesting discussion Gentlemen.

can I add a couple of salient points ?

1. I don't think that the Broad "catch" was straightforward at all. The wicketkeepers gloves were almost touching Broad's bat and the deviation was unusually high for that kind of snick.
The umpire who did not give him out is considered to be the best in the World at the moment.
Broad is primarily a bowler and as such has had to put up with many decisions of batsmen who refuse to walk.

2. In the second Australian innings, Clarke the Australian Captain also refused to walk. He was given out by the umpire but challenged the decision. Only after being given out by the 3rd umpire using the technology did he walk. I have not seen any vilification of him as as happened to Broad.

3 I played League Cricket at various levels in various parts of the UK. I can tell you that whether to walk or not has always been an issue. It got progressively more common NOT to walk over the years and now I believe that anyone who does so is in a very small minority.

Cheers

MikeL2

Subject: RE: BS: Bury the Ashes?
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 17 Jul 13 - 10:40 AM

2. In the second Australian innings, Clarke the Australian Captain also refused to walk. He was given out by the umpire but challenged the decision. Only after being given out by the 3rd umpire using the technology did he walk. I have not seen any vilification of him as as happened to Broad.

Presumably Clarke made the challenge (as allowed by the DRS system) as he believed he was wrongly given out.

Whether one agrees or not with Broad's decision not to walk, I don't think there is any doubt that he knew the umpire was wrong. His challenge to the umpire (to compare with Clarke challenging the umpire) would actually have been to walk.

Subject: RE: BS: Bury the Ashes?
From: MikeL2
Date: 17 Jul 13 - 11:04 AM

Hi Jon

Interesting viewpoint. I think that Clarke knew he had hit the ball. IMO his decision was much more obvious than Broad's. He was challenging in the hope that the umpire got it wrong. After the match he as good as admitted it by saying he does not believe in batsmen walking.
Either way I don't think we will see any players walking in the next games in the series !!!

Cheers

Mike

Subject: RE: BS: Bury the Ashes?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 17 Jul 13 - 11:07 AM

Pete Jennings ~~ It is the job of the square leg umpire to decide on a stumping or a run out at the batsman's end.

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Bury the Ashes?
From: Gutcher
Date: 17 Jul 13 - 12:41 PM

Greetings all---I have no further comment to make on the morality or lack of it in professional sportsmen and their supporters.
Since my last post at 7.02 AM. I have learned a beautiful song from a thread above the line--"When I Mowed Pat Murphy"s Meadow In The Days Of Long Ago"--- Newfoundland with Irish and Scottish connections. Chust sublime as Para Handy would have said.

Subject: RE: BS: Bury the Ashes?
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 17 Jul 13 - 06:04 PM

When I was playing junior cricket and the two coaches doubled as umpires, our coach once told us to make sure we appeal, because he'd seen but couldn't dismiss a batsman LBW as no one bothered to appeal!

Subject: RE: BS: Bury the Ashes?
From: IanC
Date: 18 Jul 13 - 03:56 AM

Well ... when an OUT decision is challenged, the first thing the 3rd umpire looks at is whether the ball was a no-ball. If Broad had walked, it wouldn't have allowed for the possibility that it was a no-ball and we still can't be sure if the ball was actually valid.

Broad had a perfect right to allow someone to decide whether he was out or not. If it had been an uncalled no-ball then he wouldn't have been, would he?

:-)

Subject: RE: BS: Bury the Ashes?
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 18 Jul 13 - 07:04 AM

Great start for the Aussie's, 40 minutes gone and three wickets to the good.

Subject: RE: BS: Bury the Ashes?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 18 Jul 13 - 07:16 AM

Oh dear, oh dear, oh dear!
Let's hope Trottie and Bell get their act together.
Great shots of The Long Room!

Subject: RE: BS: Bury the Ashes?
From: MikeL2
Date: 18 Jul 13 - 09:37 AM

hi

Oh dear 127-4 Trott out 58 !!! Just as it gets better it gets worse !!!

Mike

Subject: RE: BS: Bury the Ashes?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 18 Jul 13 - 10:54 AM

182-4. Still some hope, esp. after Jonny Bairstow's lucky let-off!

Subject: RE: BS: Bury the Ashes?
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 18 Jul 13 - 08:04 PM

Here's when the truer tests begin:
Friday 6th September 2013, Leeds 10:15

Subject: RE: BS: Bury the Ashes?
From: Sooz
Date: 19 Jul 13 - 11:40 AM

Even more hope now Backwoodsman - 120 for 9! "Come on you whites."

Subject: RE: BS: Bury the Ashes?
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 19 Jul 13 - 05:35 PM

Come on the one-day internationals.

Subject: RE: BS: Bury the Ashes?
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 20 Jul 13 - 06:25 AM

Given the Scots have gone it alone with cricket and are due to play Australia in a one day international, is it time for England and Wales to do the same and compete AGAINST each other and Australia, etc?

Subject: RE: BS: Bury the Ashes?
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 20 Jul 13 - 08:00 AM

WAV. Considering the amount of cricket already being played....Tests...40 over matches...20/20 etc during the year. When are you planning to fit in Scot/Irish/Welsh/English matches? Middle of the night perhaps? Meanwhile. The second test (Which you so hate) is progressing in a good fashion. The Aussies are on the back foot, but it's still fascinating stuff.

Subject: RE: BS: Bury the Ashes?
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 20 Jul 13 - 05:34 PM

Scrapping the "tests", Raplphie, would free lots of time for limited-over internationals, and cricketers would not have to be away from home and family for so long.

Subject: RE: BS: Bury the Ashes?
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 21 Jul 13 - 04:20 AM

WAV. Nothings going to change so you might as well give. And please tell me how the Aussies are going to see more of their families? Commute from Brisbane?

Subject: RE: BS: Bury the Ashes?
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 21 Jul 13 - 05:56 AM

Ralphie - 5 days x 5 "tests" is 25 days of cricket, whereas 5 one day internationals take up...(scratching head)...

Subject: RE: BS: Bury the Ashes?
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 21 Jul 13 - 06:44 AM

Welcome to the Strange World of Walkabouts Verse.

Well at least he's not quoting his interminable insufferable crap poetry.

Dave H

Subject: RE: BS: Bury the Ashes?
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 21 Jul 13 - 08:31 AM

Dave H. Have you seen his dreadful You Tube videos? Makes you want to stick pins in your eyes. How out of tune can someone be? I'd lie down in a darkened room before watching.

Subject: RE: BS: Bury the Ashes?
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 21 Jul 13 - 08:33 AM

Oh and BTW, The Aussies are doing rather badly. Not much of a contest, which is a shame. Could be over in the next couple of hours.

Subject: RE: BS: Bury the Ashes?
From: The Sandman
Date: 21 Jul 13 - 01:41 PM

Ralphie,you come over as an unpleasant,nasty person,why do you have to rubbish wavs you tube videos.

Subject: RE: BS: Bury the Ashes?
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 21 Jul 13 - 02:02 PM

Have you seen them?

Subject: RE: BS: Bury the Ashes?
From: The Sandman
Date: 21 Jul 13 - 02:14 PM

I think it is unnecessary to bring in to a discussion, any mudcat members, you tube videos.
For the same reason I do not and have not commented on your music.
The point I am trying to make is this, by bringing something that is not relevant to the discussion[wavs videos], you are making a personal attack, you are bullying and also trolling and flaming, give it a break please, it has nothing to do with burying the ashes.
I do not agree with WAV , I think test cricket is the best from of cricket, but I see no need to attack another persons videos or poetry.

Subject: RE: BS: Bury the Ashes?
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 21 Jul 13 - 06:59 PM

I've only got wind of the test results through here and TV news (it being one-sided quite suits me), but do intend to watch at least the highlights (if I can without Sky Sports?) of the upcoming one-dayers - and certainly not prostrate in a darkened room, Ralphie!

Subject: RE: BS: Bury the Ashes?
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 22 Jul 13 - 02:10 AM

Highlights are on 5OD...(All 4 days)

Subject: RE: BS: Bury the Ashes?
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 22 Jul 13 - 07:34 PM

The one-day internationals? Via Google's Blogspot, my poem "Sunday Cricket and Berries" - http://walkaboutsverse.blogspot.co.uk/2011/01/walkaboutsverse-115-of-230.html

Subject: RE: BS: Bury the Ashes?
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 02 Aug 13 - 08:09 AM

"There was daylight between bat and ball - there was no Hotspot and no noise," (Shane Warne re the dismissal of Khawaja)...in which case he had made a WORSE effort than managing to get an edge! Silly game.

Subject: RE: BS: Bury the Ashes?
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 02 Aug 13 - 09:29 AM

As to whether a player should walk ...

With each team having a limited number of appeals available, it makes sense to stand your ground. If not given 'out' (possibly because it was a 'no ball') then the opposition have to consider using up one of their appeals. If given 'out' (and you think there's any room for doubt) then your team may consider using up one of their appeals.
If you know for certain that you should have been out then you can choose whether to walk before, or after, an appeal. Your team captain may have his own view on your decision!

Subject: RE: BS: Bury the Ashes?
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 02 Aug 13 - 06:34 PM

I.e. vis modern technology close scrutinisation these days as to whether the batsman was good enough to at least get a faint edge on the ball, rather than safely miss it completely. Silly game.

Subject: RE: BS: Bury the Ashes?
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 03 Aug 13 - 03:14 AM

WAV. If it's such a silly game, why do you watch it? I don't like horse racing or American football. So I don't watch it. It's very easy. Just leave it to people who find it interesting for them. Anything you say here will make no difference whatsoever.

Subject: RE: BS: Bury the Ashes?
From: Pete Jennings
Date: 03 Aug 13 - 06:32 AM

Whose brilliant idea was it to send in Bresnan with half an hour to go? Asking for trouble...

Subject: RE: BS: Bury the Ashes?
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 03 Aug 13 - 07:16 PM

I just hear the results on the news, Ralfie, and intend to watch the limited-over highlights; we agree on horse racing, by the way - my pome "Horses for Courses?": http://walkaboutsverse.blogspot.co.uk/2010/10/walkaboutsverse-146-of-230.html

Subject: RE: BS: Bury the Ashes?
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 04 Aug 13 - 07:18 AM

WAV. Whatever.....Leave the real cricket to those of us who understand it. And please, no more of your tiresome doggerel. I gave up reading it years ago. Uninteresting tosh.

Subject: RE: BS: Bury the Ashes?
From: MikeL2
Date: 04 Aug 13 - 02:01 PM

hi

I have been at the Test at Old Trafford for the past four days. It is some years since I saw a live Test Match. I have watched them on TV of course.

What a difference. The atmosphere was gripping and completely different from watching at home. I felt part of the game.

Australia were by far the better team for the first 2 1/2 days. Defeat appeared to be staring England in the face. Then came the Pietersen/Bell stand and things looked up from then.

They fought and avoided the follow-on and then this afternoon they bowled and fielded brilliantly.

Pity that both bad light and then rain interrupted - the game was heading to an enthralling finish.

Fine weather tomorrow may still provide an exciting day - at the moment I would say Australia are just favourites with a draw the next best. An England win would be fantastic but at this stage I believe that is just beyond them.

I hope I am wrong and have already packed my gear ready for tomorrow.

I got the tickets for the game because my son had to have an operation this week and was unable to go. I am pleased to report that he has had the op and although he is very sore he is home and everything is fine.

Just hope England can do it; that would be a great tonic for him.

By the way if anyone was watching on TV I was the one with a white sun hat and sunglasses...lol

Cheers

MikeL2

Subject: RE: BS: Bury the Ashes?
From: Pete Jennings
Date: 05 Aug 13 - 12:52 PM

Nail-biting morning with England at 37 for 3, but the rain ensured a draw and the retention of The Ashes.

Only been watching the channel 5 highlights in the evening, having had work to do.

MikeL2: I saw you! (Glad your son is okay).

Subject: RE: BS: Bury the Ashes?
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 05 Aug 13 - 02:46 PM

Pete, you got the Nelson !!

Subject: RE: BS: Bury the Ashes?
From: The Sandman
Date: 06 Aug 13 - 03:27 AM

will autralia win the next test?what do people think?

Subject: RE: BS: Bury the Ashes?
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 06 Aug 13 - 03:56 AM

Autralia ............... probably not, however Australia seem to be getting their act together and to my mind England are still frail in the batting department. The tests at Durham and the Oval should be close matches.

Subject: RE: BS: Bury the Ashes?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 06 Aug 13 - 06:22 AM

Ralphie ~~ I don't read WAV's verse either. But your injunction to him, 'no more of' it, because you don't happen to like it, is a bit inconsistent, is it not?, with your injunction to him to stop commenting on the cricket, but just to ignore it if he doesn't find it interesting. A strong tu quoque to you re his verse. I gather, in fact, that you don't read it; so what skin is it off your nose if he goes on posting it or not?

Just asking. Consistency matters.

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Bury the Ashes?
From: Pete Jennings
Date: 06 Aug 13 - 09:46 AM

The Nelson, Raggy? What's that?

Subject: RE: BS: Bury the Ashes?
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 06 Aug 13 - 01:16 PM

One hundred and eleven, eye eye eye or aye aye aye, the fabled unlucky number for English cricket teams and a reference to our famed Naval Commander who only had one, eye that is. It's amazing just how many wickets fall when teams are on 111. Such is the power of superstition.

Subject: RE: BS: Bury the Ashes?
From: MikeL2
Date: 06 Aug 13 - 02:32 PM

Hi

I managed to watch all of the Game - I even went on the last day with fingers crossed. I am not sure whether this was for hope of an Englang victory or for rain !!

Rain it was, and we know that England survived and hold on to The Ashes.

There is no doubt that Australia gained a moral victory with a much improved performance. They were by far the much better team in all departments.

Can they reproduce that performance for the last two tests??

I believe that England will re-group and produce the form that enabled them to win the first two games.

Yes their batting is very suspect. In six innings in these tests they have not reached 30 runs with the fall of three wickets. Yet they won two of the matches with these poor starts.

I think that the batting will click and give their superior bowling attack the chance to win the games.

For all this poor play there is no doubt that it has produced very exciting and absorbing cricket.

With a little more consistency from the first five batsmen England will in my view run out winners in the next two games.....weather permitting of course.

Pete I am glad you saw me......I felt that you were waving....lol

Cheers

MikeL2

Subject: RE: BS: Bury the Ashes?
From: Pete Jennings
Date: 07 Aug 13 - 11:23 AM

Agh!! Not THAT Nelson...not sure I'd have posted if I'd seen the 110. Still, nothing fell or broke nor did anything bad happen. Remember the umpire who used to hop about when 111 was on the board?

Subject: RE: BS: Bury the Ashes?
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 08 Aug 13 - 08:12 AM

The only problem with test cricket is unless I go to a pub all day that is showing it I am not allowed to watch it.

Subject: RE: BS: Bury the Ashes?
From: Pete Jennings
Date: 08 Aug 13 - 11:08 AM

Going to the pub all day is a PROBLEM???

Subject: RE: BS: Bury the Ashes?
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 09 Aug 13 - 07:33 AM

The "hot-spot" argument over how to determine whether a batsman was good enough to at least get and edge, rather than SAFELY miss the thing completely, moves to County Durham!

Subject: RE: BS: Bury the Ashes?
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 09 Aug 13 - 08:56 AM

WAV ........... give it a rest mate, it's getting tedious.

Cheers

Raggy

Subject: RE: BS: Bury the Ashes?
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 11 Sep 13 - 06:39 PM

...but now the far-less "tedious" & far-more meaningful Limited Over Series is on, Raggy - how the Ashes should be fought for...