Sale of DT intellectual property?

Subject: Sale of DT lyrics?
From: Barry in Victoria
Date: 09 Nov 99 - 11:01 PM

I draw your attention to a post today in three newsgroups.. rec.music.celtic rec.music.folk and uk.music.folk wherein an enterprising chap in England is marketing a CDROM containing 8,500 lyrics and 6,500 tunes...

...including lyrics from the Digital Tradition!

I suspect that 500 of my midi sequences are in there, too,(contrary to my wishes and instructions) and I would bet that the hard work of many others may also be contributing to this project without their knowledge.

'Thought all of you should know about it.

Subject: RE: Sale of DT intellectual property?
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 09 Nov 99 - 11:18 PM

I saw the post(s), too, and had a look at his website but found no specific details. He seems to be saying that the price he is asking (£20 + £1 shipping) is justified by the time it took him to download all the files! It may all be above-board for all I know, but it doeslookrather odd...

Malcolm

Subject: RE: Sale of DT intellectual property?
From:
Date: 09 Nov 99 - 11:21 PM

You can get a court order preventing sales in the UK, contact a Solicitor in England.

Subject: RE: Sale of DT intellectual property?
From: katlaughing
Date: 10 Nov 99 - 01:01 AM

Boy, what with that and Harry Fox, the world sure is getting ugly, isn't it?

Subject: RE: Sale of DT intellectual property?
From: Jack (who is called Jack)
Date: 10 Nov 99 - 09:54 AM

This just illustrates the larger context of which our dealings with HFA are only a small part. There is a global war on over the use of information that can be accessed, copied, and used electronically by almost anyone. Its a squatters mentality where the rule seems to be 'take whatever you want until somebody tells you otherwise'. Its no accident that HFA is treating us like pirates. They're clients are so overwhelmed by actual internet piracy that they don't have the luxury of figuring out who's really a pirate and who's not.

Look at this guy in England, and think of how much time and effort it would take to just find out if he's stolen Dick's stuff, then to prove it in court. By the time you were through, it might not even matter.

Subject: RE: Sale of DT intellectual property?
From: MMario
Date: 10 Nov 99 - 10:20 AM

NOt very hard to prove whether or not he has stolen Dick and Susan's work. He is claiming that some of his tunes and his lyrics are in "Digital Tradition" format. So either this is false, or it is true. If true, then either it was with permission or without. Dick knows.

On Rec.music.folk, the director of a music project stepped in to defend this man, saying *he* among others had been contacted regarding this, (on a profit sharing basis) and that it was a legitimate project. So - it is POSSIBLE he has contacted Digital Tradition regarding this. However, in one case, it appears he is offerring profit-sharing, and in another he is claiming that cost of CD only covers cost of production. Mutually exclusive concepts.

Subject: RE: Sale of DT intellectual property?
From: Jeri
Date: 10 Nov 99 - 02:48 PM

I'd bet they'd make a profit if they sold many. I doubt he's going to have too many sales of his £20 ($33) CD if the DT is downloadable from here for free. This doesn't excuse the inclusion of material against copyright holders' wishes, though.

Gosh, maybe WE should hire the HFA! (sarcasm)

Subject: RE: Sale of DT intellectual property?
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 10 Nov 99 - 03:24 PM

Nobody can steal the DT--it's copylefted, copy encouraged and free for anyone to use as s/he sees fit. Including profiteers.

Subject: RE: Sale of DT intellectual property?
From: MMario
Date: 10 Nov 99 - 03:28 PM

He has spoken. one less thing for the rest of us to stir up the mud about.

Subject: RE: Sale of DT intellectual property?
From: Peter T.
Date: 10 Nov 99 - 05:03 PM

That's why some of us stay here. Dick, Susan, Max, and their helpers are rebuilding the gift economy through the ethics of folk music -- in the face of all the people who say you must be idiots to do this.
And they need gifts to keep being able to prove that it can be done! yours, Peter T.

Subject: RE: Sale of DT intellectual property?
From: John of the Hill
Date: 10 Nov 99 - 06:26 PM

If Rick Fielding is still looking for a hero, I hope he sees Dick"s response. I was thinking we were facing a philosophical inconsistency, but I am glad it was put to rest. We all profit by knowing a man of such honor. John

Subject: RE: Sale of DT intellectual property?
From: Bert
Date: 10 Nov 99 - 07:01 PM

But in many cases the gift was to Susan & Dick and Digital Tradition on the assumption that it was NOT for profit.

Subject: RE: Sale of DT intellectual property?
From: Jeri
Date: 10 Nov 99 - 07:05 PM

I read the message in rec.music.celtic. This is part of it:

"This is a CDROM containing over 8500 lyrics and 6500 tunes from all over the world (but mainly from Ireland). The disc also contains over 20 demo, shareware and freeware music software packages including Sibelius, the Cakewalk collection, Mozart, Noteworthy Composer, Midiscan and Smartscore and the 3 famous ABC packages - ABC2WIN, ABCPLAYER and ABCMUS. The tunes are in various formats : abc, mid, GIFs and the Digital Tradition. The lyrics are in Word .doc format and the Digital Tradition."

While I won't comment on the copyright issue, it sounds like he did a bunch of work. Website here: http://www.g8ina.enta.net\irish.htm

Subject: RE: Sale of DT intellectual property?
From: MMario
Date: 10 Nov 99 - 07:11 PM

I could probably duplicate the result (not exactly but similair) in about two or three hours. Not counting duping the CD's

Subject: RE: Sale of DT intellectual property?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 10 Nov 99 - 10:14 PM

Lighten up. If you aren't selling something or intending to sell it, and somebody copies it and sells it, how has anybody lost anything. I'm glad Dick sees it this way.

You can paint my house and stick the painting on a Christmas Card (funny Christmas Card that would be), but I still live in it.

Anyway, whoever put this CDRom out has to be a folkie who's probably lurked around the Mudcat Cafe from time to time. How do we know they aren't planning to send any loot, over and above the costs involved, as a present to the Digital Tradition? If it was me (and it's not), that's what I'd do, and wouldn't most of us? Why take it for granted the next guy is worse than you are?

Subject: RE: Sale of DT intellectual property?
From: Bill D
Date: 10 Nov 99 - 10:39 PM

I have to laugh a bit...after all the work, he got the last slash in his URL backwards! It is wrong in the neswgroups he posted it in....

http://www.g8ina.enta.net\irish.htm

http://www.g8ina.enta.net/irish.htm will get you there...

Subject: RE: Sale of DT intellectual property?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 11 Nov 99 - 02:20 PM

That's a handy site. And I can't see this as being a ripoff artist. (And how come the assumption it's a "chap in England" anyway?)

Definitely worth bookmarking.

Subject: RE: Sale of DT intellectual property?
From: Rana
Date: 11 Nov 99 - 04:22 PM

Hi, I agree with McGrath - the page is clearly the work of a dedicated lover of the music who clearly gives links to many sites and states that if he has infringed copyright he apologises and will remove the articles. He stresses people should be visiting the links.

As for selling a CD, I doubt whether he is going to make a fortune - it is a bit like the shareware collection CDs one can buy which basically just compile the sghareware stuff you find on the web and then, if you want the full version you will presumably buy. Indeed this could be seen as a free advert for DT.

The cost of 20 pounds sterling (which, comparing CD prices in Canada would convert to $20) would cover time/effort costs and certainly not be profiteering, in my opinion - it seems a far cry from bootlegging. As for being able to do it in 2-3 hours as someone said above, I would deem this impossble given the numbers involved.

It is interseting comparing this to the troubles o that DT has had with the other lawyers - they could now be snickering and saying that people in glass houses...

Rana

Subject: RE: Sale of DT intellectual property?
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 11 Nov 99 - 04:29 PM

If you're hot on CDs, you can get the latest DT (it's not up on the Web yet, but will be presently) which will give you 8100 lyrics with tunes for 4200 of them on CD for five bucks, which just about equals the cost of CDs, labels, mailers, postage, printer ink and the like. It's set up so you can run from the CD, download to your hard disk or copy onto floppies for distribution. It may (if I have time to organize this) include a printing/playing program, a high-class chord-setting program and one that provides a Windows-like interface. THe biggest thing that keeps other folks from profiteering on the DT is that we distribute it at cost.

Subject: RE: Sale of DT intellectual property?
From: Bill D
Date: 11 Nov 99 - 04:42 PM

sounds great, Dick!....especially the idea of the add-ons!..

(and yes, this guy's site is about as innocuous as something of that sort can be....and 2-3 of the sites he lists seem not to be there anymore...so his ZIP download may be one's last chance to get a couple of those collections...

Subject: RE: Sale of DT intellectual property?
From: -gargoyle
Date: 12 Nov 99 - 12:40 AM

You are livin in the "old world."

Once ANYTHING is posted to "the net".... it is EVERYONES property....

Of others are too ignorant, stupid, lazy, to find it for "free...." then those who have the "inside knowledge" are well entitled to market it in another formum.... for a finders/processors/locators "commission."

Because you gave willingly, unencombered, is your blessing.....that others may profit by it is theirs.

Subject: RE: Sale of DT intellectual property?
From: Ferrara
Date: 12 Nov 99 - 07:47 AM

Dick, your comment that the DT is "copylefted" is one of the neatest and nicest things I've ever read on the 'Cat. I smile whenever I think about it. - Rita F

Subject: RE: Sale of DT intellectual property?
From: Bert
Date: 12 Nov 99 - 12:03 PM

You are right in one sense Garg, Once something is on the web it is available to everyone else.

It's kinda like a public library, the books are available there for free; BUT, that law does not allow us to take those books and publish them ourselves.

The DT is Susan & Dick's database so questions on its distribution are theirs. At the very least, if someone is publishing the whole database they should have the courtesy to talk with Susan and Dick before doing so.

Bert.