Tech:Running Digital Tradition in Linux/Vista/Win7

Subject: Tech: Running the Digital Tradition in Linux
From: Joe Offer
Date: 29 Dec 03 - 01:54 AM

This was in the Help forum, but I think it might get more exposure and a better answer here. Can anybody advise?
-Joe Offer-

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Subject: Digital Tradition question
From:
Date: 28-Dec-03 - 12:28 PM

Sir,

I have installed The Digital Tradition for windows in SuSE Linux 9.0 with a KDE desktop. It's a little slow but it works under wine. The readme suggests using certain fonts. None are offered on the download page, nor are any mentioned. Can you name the fonts for me? If they're not available, is it possible to edit a file to substitute? If so, is fixed width necessary and which file is the correct one. (Sometimes they can fool you.)

Subject: RE: Tech: Running the Digital Tradition in Linux
From: Susan of DT
Date: 29 Dec 03 - 07:31 AM

There are four versions of the DT: DOS, Windows, MAC, and web. I don't know enough about LINUX to know which it is likely to get along with best. The DOS version needs and comes with 2 DOS programs: AskSam and Songwrite - Does LINUX run DOS propgrams? The first 3 come on the CD Dick puts together. The web version is what is up here that Max uses. The DOS verison has the best search engine. The windows has music printing capabilities.

The DOS version of the Spring 2004 edition is ready and is just being sent to our windows/MAC guru to make those versions.

Subject: RE: Tech: Running the Digital Tradition in Linux
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 29 Dec 03 - 07:44 AM

Susan, WINE is a program that allows Windows programs to run on a Linux box and the person asking the question has got the Windows version of the dt running that way.

Subject: RE: Tech: Running the Digital Tradition in Linux
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 29 Dec 03 - 07:50 AM

Maybe the Mac version would be worth trying if it's written for the latest Mac operating system, which I believe is version 10 (OSX?). My understanding is that OSX, if that's how it's known, has some affinity with Unix, which has some affinity with Linux, both having been developed in the open source community.

Subject: RE: Tech: Running the Digital Tradition in Linux
From: GUEST
Date: 29 Dec 03 - 08:10 AM

Fionn, Unix was developed at AT&T Bell. I'm not sure if it ever was truely open source although at one time I believe it was at least freely available to academic institutions. There is an open source varient called FreeBSD which I think inherited from Unix code. Linux was a write from scratch job but is pretty compatible.

As for your point about running OSX programs on Linux, I suspect you would need an emulator as you do with older Mac programs. Basilisk II could be worth a try in both cases as I read there is now an OSX port.

Jon

Subject: RE: Tech: Running the Digital Tradition in Linux
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 29 Dec 03 - 08:13 AM

The question was about fonts.

One proprietory font is included with the "hard copy" Windows DT: Digitrad.ttf. It's a staff notation font. I haven't installed it, but the program displays perfectly well without it (though I do have a number of music fonts already, which I suppose would help). I'd imagine that that is the font referred to? I don't see any alphabetic fonts in the package, and I'd guess that standard defaults are used, though I don't actually know.

Subject: RE: Tech: Running the Digital Tradition in Linux
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 29 Dec 03 - 08:14 AM

Opps, I had mis-read. The OSX port is to make an OSX mac run like an older 68K Mac...

Jon

Subject: RE: Tech: Running the Digital Tradition in Linux
From: NH Dave
Date: 29 Dec 03 - 08:29 AM

It was my understanding that UNIX was initially developed by Bell Labs and then thrown out to the computing public for suggestions and add-ins/add-ons. After a suitable time for review of the material added, a "standard" UNIX was presented, while another version was offered by UCSD, and then Linus Torvald offered LINUX, which now comes in many different versions.

From this it may be implied that UNIX and LINUX are growing, developing, OSs which are subject to change as more people become interested in the OS.

Dave

Subject: RE: Tech: Running the Digital Tradition in Linux
From: mack/misophist
Date: 29 Dec 03 - 03:08 PM

That was my question that's being referred. Thanks for the answer, Malcolm. That seems to do it. The latest downloadable windows version has no font files that I can find. So naturally, I wondered.

Fionn: There are many Unices, most of which are proprietary. The linux kernel was written as a Unix work alike, they don't like to call it a clone. OS X is based on FreeBSD which is a kind of linux, but not really compatable with the others. So let's keep things as simple as possible.

Subject: RE: Tech: Running the Digital Tradition in Linux
From: mack/misophist
Date: 29 Dec 03 - 05:19 PM

Here is some trivia for those who enjoy that kind of thing. Unix was written by some men who had just worked on the Multics project. They had become addicted to a game and needed a system to play it on. The term Unix is not an acronym and shouldn't really be capitalized. It's a joking reference to Multics. The man who coined the term has given up arguing about it. AT&T got the rights and granted free use to academic institutions. When the project at Berkeley was closed, some of the members founded Berkeley Software Development (BSD). AT&T raised a fuss about that but it's long since been settled. There are several BSD variants, one of which claims it's never been hacked. FreeBSD, by far the most popular, is the basis of OS X. Linux is nothing but a kernel; sort of a glorified BIOS that controls how the CPU is used. The utilities that make up the rest of the system are provided by Richard Stallman's (paid for with a McArthur genius grant) GNU (gnu's not unix. They love stupid recursive jokes.) Foundation, which is also writing a kernel.

Subject: RE: Tech: Running the Digital Tradition in Linux
From: Joe Offer
Date: 20 Mar 07 - 01:17 PM

I'm still a bit unclear on all this, since I haven't used Linux. Has anyone had success running the Windows version of the Digital Tradition in Linux? How about the DOS version?

I have Windows Vista on my new computer. The DOS version seems to run well in Vista, although I haven't tweaked it to get the tunes running yet. I did have the DOS tunes running in Windows XP

-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: Tech: Running the Digital Tradition in Linux/Vista
From: Mick Pearce (MCP)
Date: 20 Mar 07 - 02:12 PM

FYI

I've neary finished a browser for the DT that's in Java. It uses the Apache Derby database and the Toastscript Postscript renderer for printing. The tunes are held in abc and I am (for the moment) using abcm2ps to generate postscript and abc2midi to generate midi, both of which dependencies I'll remove eventually. Searching has more options than the (Windows) DT program and the print quality is rather better. The program also has the capability to add your own songs, or indeed create your own song databases like the DT, with the ability to generate full or incremental updates from them.

The main thing is that the program is almost all in Java and should run under all systems which support Java - Windows, Mac and Linux. (The two other programs I'm using - abcm2ps and abc2midi - are both available in versions for all these platforms). It's running under Windows XP/Pro on my machine and I'm just about to test it under Linux (Fedora 6 to be exact, but I expect it to run on that with no problems, as indeed it should under any version of Linux).

I haven't sorted out the details yet, but if anyone's interested I'll make the browser freely available soon. (I might make a small charge for the version that allows you to add your own songs or create your own databases).

The whole thing is quite small (I think that last time I looked the database was about 6Mb compressed, Apache Derby is about 2Mb. My own program is quite small - a few hundred K I think. The largest other component is the Fonts file for Toastscript - a bit over 1Mb; it was the fonts question that made me post!).

I'm just in the process of loading the 2002 DT into it (I originally had the previous version, as I'd already converted the tunes from SongWright to abc some time ago. I've ported the SongWright to abc conversion program from VB - I had everything in Access before - to Java and I'm trying to sort out some details of the H- headers in SongWright to get the chords aligned with the correct notes; the Windows DT version doesn't do that correctly all the time).

Although I chose to use Apache Derby (an all Java database), the program could work, substantially unchanged, with MySQL, SQLServer, and ODBC (the minor differences are in the types to store large character strings and the database connection command - these are both really minor issues), by loading a different database driver when the program starts. At present it uses Derby's internal user authentification but it should be usable with LDAP in a wider environment. (Derby can run as a server to multiple copies of the browser.)

Mick

Subject: RE: Tech: Running the Digital Tradition in Linux/V
From: GUEST,.gargoyle
Date: 20 Mar 07 - 07:40 PM

I will try this weekend, when there is finally some time. I do not fore see any problems. It should be fun.

Sincerely,
Gargoyle

MC runs just fine. Booting from a CD

Subject: RE: Tech: Running the Digital Tradition in Linux/V
From: GUEST,.gargoyle
Date: 20 Mar 07 - 07:42 PM

Sorry - clarificatiion - I will be playing with Linux on a stand alone PII with the DT collection.

Sincerely,
Gargoyle

Subject: RE: Tech: Running the Digital Tradition in Linux/V
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 20 Mar 07 - 09:12 PM

The DOS version of the DT is, essentially, in ASCII. Should work pretty directly in LINUX

Subject: RE: Tech: Running the Digital Tradition in Linux/V
From: GUEST,.gargoyle
Date: 25 Mar 07 - 06:25 PM

No problems with the DOS

For the MIDI under Linux try the patch from:

http://www.midimountain.com/

Sincerely,
Gargoyle

Subject: RE: Tech: Running the Digital Tradition in Linux/V
From: GUEST,.gargoyle
Date: 25 Mar 07 - 06:37 PM

Midimountain's Site (German) is experiencing some difficulty.

You may want to try HitSquad's download from above screen shot.

Screen Shot

http://www.hitsquad.com/smm/programs/MidiMountain/screenshot.shtml

Sincerely,
Gargoyle

Subject: RE: Running the Digital Tradition in Linux/Vista/Win7
From: Joe Offer
Date: 26 Oct 09 - 02:38 AM

OK, so my Vista computer wasn't running very well, so I broke down and bought a computer with Windows 7 - and so far, I really like it. The old machine will probably become a Linux computer, maybe with the new Google Chrome operating system when it comes out in 2010.

BUT I tried to run the DOS version of the Digital Tradition. It started, but then I got a message saying it wouldn't run in 64-bit Windows 7.

Anybody have a hint how I can make this work?

-Joe-

Subject: RE: Running the Digital Tradition in Linux/Vista/Win7
From: Amergin
Date: 26 Oct 09 - 02:43 AM

Try running it as windows 98 or 95....or maybe get a dos emulator.

Subject: RE: Running the Digital Tradition in Linux/Vista/W
From: GUEST
Date: 26 Oct 09 - 02:50 AM

Knoppix - is Linux based - available free on-line

It boots from a CD - there are MUCH versions that fit on a floppy.

Since the system is new - consider a partition.

Subject: RE: Running the Digital Tradition in Linux/Vista/Win7
From: Amergin
Date: 26 Oct 09 - 03:15 AM

Joe, I just tried the digital tradition on mine...and I couldn't get it to work....My suggestion would be an emulator like DosBox.

Subject: RE: Running the Digital Tradition in Linux/Vista/Win7
From: Amergin
Date: 26 Oct 09 - 03:27 AM

Works great with dosbox....

Subject: RE: Running the Digital Tradition in Linux/Vista/Win7
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 26 Oct 09 - 05:22 PM

Joe O -

Reviews have touted the ability of Win7 to run a "virtual WinXP" so that anything that ran in WinXP would be able to run in Win7.

The clinker, seen only in a very few reviews, is that the "virtual WinXP" is included only in Win7 Premium and Win7 Ultimate versions. (Although reviewers thus far aren't even sure what the various Win7 versions are supposed to be called.)

There is some quibbling in the reviews about whether virtual XP can be purchased as an extra cost add-on for other versions, but at present there isn't enough firm information (beyond the usual pre-release lunatic babbling) about Win7 to be sure of much of anything.

John

Subject: RE: Running the Digital Tradition in Linux/Vista/Win7
From: Amergin
Date: 26 Oct 09 - 05:30 PM

Windows 7 has been officially out for a few days now....


The program John is talking about is this: Virtual PC and XP Mode

Subject: RE: Running the Digital Tradition in Linux/Vista/Win7
From: Crane Driver
Date: 26 Oct 09 - 05:51 PM

Can anyone explain how Micro$oft work out this new system to be only version 7 of Windoze? The last numbered version I remember was Win 3.11. Since then we've had '95, '98, ME, 2000, XP and Vista, at least. I reckon that makes this new system about Windows 10.

I'm sticking with XP for now. I really didn't take to Vista, and I'll wait til the first few hundred bugs have been ironed out of the new one before I look at it.

Subject: RE: Running the Digital Tradition in Linux/Vista/Win7
From: Amergin
Date: 26 Oct 09 - 05:58 PM

I believe...but not am completely sure that it is windows NT 7.0

Subject: RE: Running the Digital Tradition in Linux/Vista/Win7
From: GUEST
Date: 27 Oct 09 - 10:34 AM

That's what I thought, too: XP was NT5, and Vista NT6

Subject: RE: Running the Digital Tradition in Linux/Vista/W
From: Joe Offer
Date: 27 Oct 09 - 08:33 PM

All this looked quite hopeful, but now I find I need Windows 7 Professional or Ultimate to run XP emulation or virtual PC. Grrr.

Amergin, I DID get the DT to run in DOSBox, AND EVEN GOT THE TUNES TO PLAY. Now I have to do some study to figure out how to do it easily, like with one keystroke....
This page gives some good information on Dosbox shortcuts.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: Running the Digital Tradition in Linux/Vista/W
From: GUEST,.gargoyle
Date: 27 Oct 09 - 10:25 PM

Joe - partition the disk

Run multiple boots

OR - Boot from a disk - in the CD

Make it READ only

Boot from a USB

Dude - there are a dozen GOOD systems available....AND you still have Windows Seven to build your new machine upon.

Somewhere...in your experience ...you MUST have realized there are "far-better-trips" down the by-ways.

I.E. Perhaps you have a copy of "CakeWalk" ...that runs on Win98...and you purchased it for $300.00 in 98....AND it does everything (AND BETTER) because you know the loops.

FRICK - Dude - if it works WHY FIX IT????

Sincerely,
Gargoyle

My bread-knife is G-ma's from 1910, my kitten-knife is mom's from 1961, my pocket-knife is dad's about 1938....Invest in GOOD EQUIPMENT...and it will last through the generations. DOS 2.0 still works.

Subject: RE: Running the Digital Tradition in Linux/Vista/Win7
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 28 Oct 09 - 01:37 PM

Fortunately(?) my clipboard retained the post I had ready to go when Max shut down yesterday.

Joe -

As Amergin linked (26 Oct 09 - 05:30 PM ) it appears that if you have a Win7 version that doesn't include the Virtual XP utility, you can download it as an add-on from Microsoft - and it appears to be free.

The link gives fairly clear instructions for how to download and install the virtual machine.

While it is/was possible to dual-boot WinXP or Vista, the dual boot installation was somewhat complex, requiring that the WinXP version be installed in a separate partition before Vista was installed, and Vista had to be told at installation that a dual boot setup was intended. You of course had to have licenses for both the WinXP and Vista you intended to use, and you had to exit one in order to boot into the other.

The Virtual XP appears to be somewhat different, running a "virtual WinXP machine" inside Win7, so that (some reviews imply?) you can run legacy WinXP programs side by side with Win7 programs, without the need to exit one OS in order to run the other. (I haven't confirmed this, but several reviewers have claimed it.)

I didn't see anything in the instructions saying that you need a spearate XP license to use the virtual XP in Win7; but I only scanned the article briefly so you may need to check that out.

The virtual WinXP is supposedly akin to the VPN (Virtual Private Network) setup used by lots of businesses for secure connections for their "road warriors" while they're away from the home server(?).

John

Subject: RE: Running the Digital Tradition in Linux/Vista/W
From: Joe Offer
Date: 28 Oct 09 - 02:38 PM

Garg, the problem with partitioning the disk and using multiple boots, is that it's difficult to use Windows programs when you're in a different operating system. Amergin's DOSBOX solution is far more "elegant," if you'll excuse the overused term.

Amergin's link to the Windows 7 Virtual PC and XP mode looked very promising, and I got all excited and fuzzy-feeling because it looked like this was going to end all my compatibility problems. I clicked the download link, and was told I first had to change my BIOS to allow virtual machines, so I did all that. Then I clicked the test link and was informed that my machine would work with virtual machines. THEN I clicked the download link for the actual XP emulator, and got a message that said, "Sorry, but you must have Windows 7 Professional or Ultimate to run the XP emulator, which may or may not solve your problem. Professional and Ultimate (which are already taking space on your computer but are locked up) can be unlocked for the bargain price of $7,869" (or something to that effect).

So, in other words, buying Windows 7 Home Premium is kind of like going to Starbucks and expecting to get something big when you order a "tall" or "grande" cup of coffee.

But anyhow, I now have the Digital Tradition running quite nicely in Dosbox, although it takes me two clicks to open it and I haven't figured out a two-keystroke way to open it. The trick is to alter the target under "properties" in a Windows shortcut, to read

"C:\Program Files (x86)\DOSBox-0.73\dosbox.exe" -conf "C:\Program Files\DOSBox-0.72\dosbox.conf" "C:\data\dt\folksong.bat"

[be sure to include quotation marks].

My next goal is to get my wonderful little Canoscan LIDE scanner to work in 64-bit Windows 7, because I'm told there is no 64-bit driver for my scanner.....

Oy.

-Joe-


P.S. In answer to the first question in the thread, posted in 2003, DOSBOX now runs in Linux and on Macs, so you can still run the Digital Tradition on just about any computer...

Subject: RE: Running the Digital Tradition in Linux/Vista/Win7
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 30 Oct 09 - 08:37 AM

Crane Driver asks:

Can anyone explain how Micro$oft work out this new system to be only version 7 of Windoze?

Windows: Start to Seven says:

"Nearly a quarter-century has passed since Microsoft launched its first graphical user interface operating system. When Windows 7 is released this week, it will be the 29th version of the Windows operating system. Vista didn't rock the computing world, but it wasn't Microsoft's first failure. Here's a look at the highs and lows of Windows long history."

Maybe they only count the good (better?) ones.

John

Subject: RE: Running the Digital Tradition in Linux/Vista/Win7
From: Amergin
Date: 30 Oct 09 - 01:32 PM

In response to Gargoyle's suggestion about partitioning the drive....you can do that, in fact Windows 7 has a tool that makes it really simple to accomplish...however, there is a flaw that Vista had, and for some reason is carried over to Windows 7, that if you partition your drive, and install an older version of windows, the system will NO LONGER recognise the newer version, and it is a right pain in the ass to fix.

I'm sorry, Joe, I didn't look carefully enough at that link....to see if it would work for your version.

I wouldn't be surprised however if some one found a way to get around that...

Subject: RE: Running the Digital Tradition in Linux/Vista/Win7
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 30 Oct 09 - 03:38 PM

We're working on a platform-independent version of Digitrad. We think we have the lyrics search worked out, and we're nearing some sort of solution to the playing/displaying of tunes.

For a look at where we are so far, try visiting
alpha version of DT

Subject: RE: Running the Digital Tradition in Linux/Vista/W
From: Rowan
Date: 31 Oct 09 - 12:19 AM

It worked for me, Dick, on the Mac, although the formatting didn't include many separations between verses.

Cheers, Rowan

Subject: RE: Running the Digital Tradition in Linux/Vista/Win7
From: artbrooks
Date: 31 Oct 09 - 12:35 AM

Works just fine with Windows 7, Dick - including the MIDI.

Subject: RE: Running the Digital Tradition in Linux/Vista/W
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 31 Oct 09 - 01:10 PM

The next step will be to display the tunes in ABC format, where they can be dealt with by a variety of players---ABC Explorer seems to work well on PCs; I'm told that Barfly does on Macs.

The whole object is to permit Susan and I to update the DT without having to produce separate versions for Mac, PC, Linux and the Website. We're moving along---slowly, but (I hope) surely.