BS: Irish Slang: 'The Germans'

Subject: BS: Irish Slang: 'The Germans'
From: Bev and Jerry
Date: 10 Aug 13 - 05:15 PM

Jerry is rehearsing for a play that takes place in an Irish pub near Carrick (Co. Donegal)and the term "the Germans" comes up several times. For example, "You get all the Germans trekking up here in the summer, up from the campsite" and "All the Germans'll be coming in here and they love it". Obviously these are references to tourists but it seems like the term "Germans" has some other connotation.

And then at the end of the play we hear, "Are they from Germany? ...We call them Germans... Where are they from? Is it Denmark, or Norway? It's somewhere like that... Ah, I don't know where the fuck they're from."

Anyone familiar with this term?

Bev and Jerry

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Slang: 'The Germans'
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 10 Aug 13 - 07:42 PM

Sounds like the same stereotype of German tourists you get in England - pushy and prosporous and organised, first to the beach. Anybody like that is likely to be assumed to be Germans. Unless they are obviously Yanks.

Like most sterotypes, very unfair as a generalisation, but accurate enough for a certain type. Who aren't particularly likely to be German.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Slang: 'The Germans'
From: Rapparee
Date: 10 Aug 13 - 08:42 PM

Once ask a B&B host in Dingle how it felt to live in the Deutschtacht. He laughed and said that it was a pretty accurate description of the place "these days now."

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Slang: 'The Germans'
From: gnu
Date: 10 Aug 13 - 10:35 PM

"Term." Odd but, yet, somehow understanable, given the discussion.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Slang: 'The Germans'
From: Ebbie
Date: 11 Aug 13 - 02:26 AM

Kind of like in Juneau where we tend to call all tourist-shop meccas in town "T-shirt shops" no matter what they sell in actuality.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Slang: 'The Germans'
From: GUEST,Grishka
Date: 11 Aug 13 - 04:40 AM

Bev and Jerry, can you tell us when the play was written?

Tourists have always and everywhere been a target of taunting, all the more so if their money is badly needed. Typical national profiles and prejudices vary, though, and depend on both nations involved. England and Ireland are very different in this respect, and even likely to attract different types of tourists.

The simplest explanation is of course that at that time, Germans were by far the largest group of tourists in Europe, before Americans and Japanese took over. Moreover, Americans and other English-speakers traveling to Ireland were often searching for their "roots", which made for quite a different emotional situation. (In other countries including England, Americans mentioning their local ancestors won't be bought a beer, unless they display a keen effort to learn about the country. Irish, it seems, have a particularly soft spot for their lost relatives - see the "Irish famine" thread.)

We need statements from residents of Ireland.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Slang: 'The Germans'
From: GUEST,Peter Laban
Date: 11 Aug 13 - 05:05 AM

Yes, no slang involved, just Germans. Tourists. Sounds very 1980-ish.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Slang: 'The Germans'
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Aug 13 - 06:40 AM

Wot McGrath and Peter just said -
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Slang: 'The Germans'
From: Leadbelly
Date: 11 Aug 13 - 09:02 AM

Was für eine saublöde Diskussion. Verdient keine Übersetzung.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Slang: 'The Germans'
From: Ron Davies
Date: 11 Aug 13 - 09:41 AM

Ganz genau. Wollte ich gerade sagen.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Slang: 'The Germans'
From: Ron Davies
Date: 11 Aug 13 - 09:52 AM

Nur dass es is vielleicht moeglich dass einige Leute hier sind selber gegen so einen Ausdruck.   Der Ausdruck kommt auf jeden Fall scheinbar aus den 80's.

Wir sollen deswegen vielleicht Verstehung fuer diese Diskussion haben.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Slang: 'The Germans'
From: Ron Davies
Date: 11 Aug 13 - 09:55 AM

Wir sollen deswegen vielleicht doch Verstehung fuer so eine Diskussion haben.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Slang: 'The Germans'
From: Ron Davies
Date: 11 Aug 13 - 10:03 AM

Sie hat mit der Teilnehmung eines Buehnenstuecks zu tun.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Slang: 'The Germans'
From: GUEST,Grishka
Date: 11 Aug 13 - 02:12 PM

By the quotations of the OP, the Danes and Norwegians may primarily feel offended. It was McGrath who mentioned clichés about German tourists, common in England and some other countries, but probably not that much in Ireland, where they may indulge in wanderlust as camping backpackers.

(Ron, nicht schlecht, deine Sprachkenntnisse! Bleibauch, nur keine Aufregung am falschen Ort.)

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Slang: 'The Germans'
From: GUEST,JTT
Date: 11 Aug 13 - 02:15 PM

From the 1960s on the west of Ireland was aflock with Germans. It started, I think, from an article in a German news magazine about the safest places to live after a nuclear war, and then there was Heinrich Boll's Irisches Tagebuch (Irish Journal), which pictured our country as a land of dreamy, sweetly innocent peasants driving donkey-carts. German idealists took this hook line and sinker, and proceeded to visit Ireland annually, with many moving in.
The tourists were perhaps a little less popular than those from other countries, because of a perception that they took more than they gave - even the cycle tourists often thriftily brought their own food with them, and stayed in hostels or campsites rather than giving business to local B&Bs and shops.
So any sharp references to "the Germans" in the play are probably the Donegal people feeling a certain reserve about being treated like a human zoo in a beautiful landscape by people who may not wish to form any real exchange.
(All this has largely changed with the tourists coming back year and year and growing older and richer - in their fifties and sixties they now tend to be sensible and stay in B&Bs and buy from local shops. And those who have moved in largely went native; I remember visiting a friend in west Cork some years ago who had been waiting three months for a local German carpenter to come and mend the window.)

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Slang: 'The Germans'
From: GUEST,JTT
Date: 11 Aug 13 - 02:21 PM

Good piece by the Irish novelist Hugo Hamilton here, by the way>

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Slang: 'The Germans'
From: Bev and Jerry
Date: 11 Aug 13 - 03:23 PM

The play is "The Weir" by Conor McPherson and was copyrighted in 1997.

And, we made an error in saying that the location was in Carrick in County Donegal. It is in fact in Carrick-on-Shannon in County Leitrim. Carrick is an anglicized version on the Irish word for weir, is it not?

Bev and Jerry

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Slang: 'The Germans'
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 11 Aug 13 - 05:52 PM

If the actors don't know what it means, how is the audience supposed to know? Apparently it's slang that has lost its meaning. The director should rewrite the lines without it so the play will go smoothly.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Slang: 'The Germans'
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 11 Aug 13 - 06:06 PM

Why see it as any kind of slang?

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Slang: 'The Germans'
From: GUEST
Date: 11 Aug 13 - 06:23 PM

I'm Irish. I never heard "German" used as a slang term.

A "German" is somebody from Germany.

Maybe it has some other meaning further north in the country, but I doubt it.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Slang: 'The Germans'
From: Ron Davies
Date: 11 Aug 13 - 09:37 PM

Grischka--

Ebenfalls.

Und danke vielmals.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Slang: 'The Germans'
From: gnomad
Date: 12 Aug 13 - 03:38 AM

thread.cfm?threadid=119645 has a few 1960s thoughts from Luke Kelly which might be germane. Foreign visitors/immigrants seem to have been occupying the thoughts of at least some Irish people at that time.

Luke did a fine recording on the LP "Revolution", the bitterness is almost palpable.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Slang: 'The Germans'
From: MartinRyan
Date: 12 Aug 13 - 07:10 AM

And, we made an error in saying that the location was in Carrick in County Donegal. It is in fact in Carrick-on-Shannon in County Leitrim. Carrick is an anglicized version on the Irish word for weir, is it not?

The Irish name of the town is Corra Droma Ruisc - and the first word does indeed mean "weir". Anglicisation as "Carrick" is a bit misleading because that word is usually derived from "carraig" - which means rock.

BTW, the switch of county from Donegal to Leitrim is very significant! Some of the earliest consistent German tourists to Ireland (as distinct from the first wave of escapees to the edge of Europe, mentioned elsewhere) were people hiring cruisers on the Shannon river. They had a distinct impact on the culture of the riverbank. When I went to live in Athlone (further downstream from Carrick) at the beginning of the '70's, the only decent delicatessen in the town was within two minutes walk of the marina. I remember being told that, in Ireland, you could only buy sauerkraut within about a mile of the river!

Regards

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Slang: 'The Germans'
From: MartinRyan
Date: 12 Aug 13 - 07:25 AM

And yes - "Germans" was really a generic term for such tourists. They were (and to to some extent still are) mainly German, Swiss, Austrians - with a sprinkle of others. I remember sitting in a sailing dinghy in one of the big locks, surrounded by hired cruisers - and not a word of English to be heard. They were often keen fishermen and would bring home freezer boxes full of pike - a favourite delicacy!

Regards

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Slang: 'The Germans'
From: GUEST,Grishka
Date: 12 Aug 13 - 09:24 AM

The OP's question seems to be answered comprehensively.

It is not quite PC to name an international group of persons by the nation of the majority. (From time to time, the old question arises whether Canadians are Americans; my atlas clearly suggests so ...) However, in colloquial speech, as quoted in the play, it can be tolerated, all the more so if no specific slur is involved.

"The tourists will love it" may sound like "... will be stupid enough to waste their money for/at it" - a worldwide phenomenon, often reflecting envy of the perceived affluence, but essentially harmless.

Selling out the country is a different topic, the blame being more on the sellers than the buyers. Whenever a genuine such problem arises, ideas like Luke Kelly's are not likely to solve it.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Slang: 'The Germans'
From: Ron Davies
Date: 12 Aug 13 - 11:53 AM

Ireland's economy appears to have been a real rollercoaster.

If this play takes place during the 80's, that may have been a low point.    Irish Independent 24 Oct 2004 (is this the voice of the business community?):    in the 80's Eire was a "land of high tax, high unemployment, high debt, high emigration, one of low growth, little opportunity and less hope". It's no wonder there would have been bitterness.

Then came the period of high foreign investment,   including lots from the US: Dell, Intel and Microsoft all invested heavily.   Partly due to this, employment went up.

Next was the housing bubble (and the banking crisis)--and its bursting, with those consequences, exacerbated by the worldwide recession.   Irish Times   22 Dec 2013:    "By 30 Jan 2009, Ireland's government debt had become the riskiest in the euro zone."

It did not help that it appears that the gap between the highest and lowest income households actually widened during the period of the "Celtic Tiger".

So it's understandable that the bitterness may well be back--though perhaps not directed at Americans, perhaps partly because of the US investment and jobs resulting (and perhaps since US tourists may spend more heavily than others). Also quite a few US tourists--supposedly 40% of the US population traces ancestry to Ireland--feel kinship, justfied or not, with Ireland.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Slang: 'The Germans'
From: Ron Davies
Date: 12 Aug 13 - 12:03 PM

"justified or not"


And of course historical struggles against Britain by the Irish and the Americans play a role in the perceived kinship.

But this is all probably rather obvious.

Sometimes it's hard to answer questions without being seen as lecturing.   Wonder how Dale Carnegie got around that.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Slang: 'The Germans'
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 12 Aug 13 - 06:54 PM

I'd doubt if solidarity with the American Revolution is too significant in this context. Or indeed that outside of direct family connections there's too much difference in the way people in Ireland view rich Tourists from America and elsewhere, as against how they actually behave.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Slang: 'The Germans'
From: Bev and Jerry
Date: 12 Aug 13 - 07:32 PM

Thanks for all the info and opinions. We once were in a tourist information place somewhere in Ireland and the lady there called the owner of a B&B for us. We heard her say, "No, they're not Germans, they're Americans." We took this to mean literally that we were not from Germany but now we have a better understanding of what she was talking about.

Bev and Jerry

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Slang: 'The Germans'
From: GUEST,Peter Laban
Date: 13 Aug 13 - 06:02 AM

We heard her say, "No, they're not Germans, they're Americans." We took this to mean literally that we were not from Germany but now we have a better understanding of what she was talking about.


Well she was exactly saying that. You were Americans, not Germans. I don't see why you persist in seeing a hidden meaning where there isn't any.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Slang: 'The Germans'
From: Ron Davies
Date: 13 Aug 13 - 10:50 AM

Point is, Kevin, that since about 40% of Americans feel kinship with Ireland, they are likely to treat the Irish with respect and possibly affection.   And this is noticed.    Perhaps noted with tolerant amusement, but that's better than feeling exploited, which is evidently how at least some Irish felt about "the Germans". You live neither in the US nor in Ireland. I at least have some concept of the American attitude toward the irish--romanticized or not. And long memories are involved here, as any Englishman should know.    We still have evidence of it here on Mudcat--and of course friction between Britons and Irishmen is not in fact a distant memory.

And who knows, perhaps the investment of US tech firms in Ireland plays a role here--as opposed to what is perceived--rightly or wrongly-- as manipulation of the Irish banking system, in which it seems UK banks were heavily involved. Were US banks involved also? Probably, but due to the different histories of the countries involved, the reaction may be different.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Slang: 'The Germans'
From: Ron Davies
Date: 13 Aug 13 - 11:05 AM

"American attitude toward the Irish"

And the American Revolution is only one of a long series of points of friction between the US and UK---and therefore identification with the Irish struggle against the British.

I'm sure I don't have to tell you about the long-running love-hate relationship between the US and UK--continuing even today with British resentment of US "cultural exploitation" and the resulting perceived dumbing down of UK culture, and possibly on the US late entry into the two world wars.   And on the US side with the continuing inferiority complex felt felt by some Americans, based primarily on language.   It's only recently that villains in Hollywood have been other than lopsidedly those with a posh British accent.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Slang: 'The Germans'
From: Ron Davies
Date: 13 Aug 13 - 11:09 AM

And of course the subsidizing of the IRA by some Americans did not help smooth relations between the US and UK.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Slang: 'The Germans'
From: mayomick
Date: 13 Aug 13 - 11:27 AM

The anti-irish prejudices of certain backward British people thankfully hasn't stopped Donegal locals being any less friendly to English visitors .

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Slang: 'The Germans'
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 13 Aug 13 - 01:29 PM

" Tolerant amusement" towards Yank tourists is about right.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Slang: 'The Germans'
From: Ron Davies
Date: 13 Aug 13 - 04:34 PM

We'll take "tolerant amusement".      Probably similar to the attitude of US westerners towards Britons on dude ranches.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Slang: 'The Germans'
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 13 Aug 13 - 05:22 PM

Incidentally I think the American Revolution is about the only significant falling out beween the US and British government of which many people in Europe are aware. Even the war of 1812 wouldn't win many right answers in pub quizzes.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Slang: 'The Germans'
From: Ron Davies
Date: 13 Aug 13 - 06:20 PM

I assure you lots of Americans are aware of others. It's amazing how many there have been historically.   Of course it depends on your definition of "significant"--a very fungible term.

But we do have an armistice now.   Don't we?

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Slang: 'The Germans'
From: michaelr
Date: 13 Aug 13 - 08:01 PM

"Fungible" -- capable of growing mushrooms?

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Slang: 'The Germans'
From: Ron Davies
Date: 13 Aug 13 - 09:45 PM

That's right. And the mushrooms are also protean.   As opposed to the people eating them, who only think they are.    And when the people try to fly out of windows, for instance, that can be a problem.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Slang: 'The Germans'
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 13 Aug 13 - 09:49 PM

Maybe Americans know about stuff like that. But if there are many people anywhere else who are aware of it I'd be astonished.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Slang: 'The Germans'
From: Ron Davies
Date: 13 Aug 13 - 09:51 PM

Heck, Kevin, a lot of people know about mushrooms.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Slang: 'The Germans'
From: Stu
Date: 14 Aug 13 - 05:40 AM

"It's amazing how many there have been historically. "

I'm interested. What are these falling outs then?

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Slang: 'The Germans'
From: GUEST,crazy little woman
Date: 14 Aug 13 - 11:11 AM

Adjective
(of goods contracted for without an individual specimen being specified) Able to replace or be replaced by another identical item...

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Slang: 'The Germans'
From: Ron Davies
Date: 14 Aug 13 - 10:13 PM

US-UK friction:    quite a list. Some incidents direct clashes between the governments;    often private citizens creating uncomfortable situations for the governments.

And some of them are really colorful.

Perhaps my favorite so far is the United Columbia scheme in 1796.

Ira Allen, brother of Ethan, of "Green Mountain Boys" fame, got the French to procure him cannon and 15,000 muskets which he claimed was for the Vermont militia.    The British suspected they were in fact intended for the United Irishmen.    The ship, the "Olive Branch"--perfect name for a conspiracy-- carrying them was intercepted 200 miles south of Ireland.   Allen's real intent:   smuggle the arms into Canada to promote a rebellion in support of a French invasion by sea.   Then Vermont would secede from the US and, with Canada, form a new republic called United Columbia.

Allen's chief partner:   John Graham.    "After studying divinity, Graham shifted to the study of law, which better suited his tastes for women, drink, and money." Civil War of 1812 p 78.

However, when the British caught the "Olive Branch" he felt for some reason compelled to betray Allen by revealing the actual destination for the arms.

At least one American was executed-- by firing squad--for participation in the United Columbia scheme. Both Graham and Allen survived.

The Adams administration, bent on good relations with the UK, disavowed any knowledge or part in this.

But there certainly are more incidents of friction other than the obvious ones, the Revolution and the War of 1812.   I can give you more of a list sometime soon if there is real interest--but you can easily make your own list.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Slang: 'The Germans'
From: Ron Davies
Date: 14 Aug 13 - 10:48 PM

"he claimed were..."

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Slang: 'The Germans'
From: Rusty Dobro
Date: 15 Aug 13 - 04:31 AM

Can't someone ask the playwright , Conor McPherson?

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Slang: 'The Germans'
From: Stu
Date: 15 Aug 13 - 04:47 AM

Thanks Ron - I might well look into this a bit further. I'm ashamed to say I'm largely ignorant of the earlier history between the two countries (apart from the big events) as in our schools here in nasty England we weren't taught much about many of the UK's past conflicts and campaigns as it didn't fit in with the concept of 'glorious empire' (at least that was how it was in the late '70s).

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Slang: 'The Germans'
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 15 Aug 13 - 11:49 AM

I somehow doubt if that little episode would be too familiar to very many people it Ireland. Or indeed anywhere, including Vermnt.

The remarkable thing is that there haave been so few serious disagreements over nearly 250 years. Undercurrent of mutual dislike sometimes? True enough, though perhaps that's a bit too strong a word, but accompanied by the reverse.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Slang: 'The Germans'
From: Ron Davies
Date: 15 Aug 13 - 12:22 PM

Depends on your definition of serious disagreements.

There have been in fact several times when hotheads in the government or outside--on either side-- have pushed for war between the US and UK.   Not including the Revolution and War of 1812. More times when there has been considerable suspicion of the other side. And I'm somewhat surprised Kevin that you say that outside pub quizzes few in the UK would recognize the War of 1812.

The "special relationhip" is a recent phenonenon.   And even that "marriage" has not been without its squabbles.

More later--no time now.