BS: Irish Slang: 'The Germans'

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Slang: 'The Germans'
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 15 Aug 13 - 12:43 PM

Hotheads calling for war doesn't add up to much. Never came to blows. I believe there some row about a pig in Oregon wasn't there?

Seriously I doubt if too many people outside the US or Canada have even heard of the War of 1812. Even if you did History of the period it gets crowded out by bigger conflicts. 1812? That's Napoleon in Russia isn't it?

Lonnie Donnegan fans have heard of the Battle of New Orleans, but I'd suspect most who haven't studied the lyrics too closely would think it was about something in the American Revolution.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Slang: 'The Germans'
From: Ron Davies
Date: 15 Aug 13 - 01:57 PM

Don't underestimate the power of demogogues.   " 54-40 or Fight" was not over a pig. Kevin, you may not understand the appeal of militarism in the US.   After all, the largest group of our presidents trace their ancestry to the Scottish-English border in the 16th century: violence as a way of solving problems. It paid off at the ballot box.   Still does--see GWB.

And people wind up in a political campaign being pressured in directions they may not want to go--and find they cannot back away. I have read Madison did not want to start the War of 1812. But it sure happened. And the start was a surprise--to the American military--when it did.

Pacifism was an also-ran in the US--at least until the 20th century.   And though the US did not want to get involved in what was seen as European quarrels, if we felt personally threatened, as military response was always close to the surface.


But it's much too glorious a day now to spend more time on this.

More later.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Slang: 'The Germans'
From: Ron Davies
Date: 15 Aug 13 - 02:00 PM

And I'm sure there's a lot of ignorance of history in the UK. Here too, of course. And it doesn't help in making the right decisions--at the ballot box, for instance.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Slang: 'The Germans'
From: Ron Davies
Date: 15 Aug 13 - 02:05 PM

One more thing: if you want to be effective, it pays not to have a flippant attitude towards problems. At least in the US.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Slang: 'The Germans'
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 15 Aug 13 - 03:35 PM

An enormous amount of ignorance about history in the UK. In a sense more awareness of it in Ireland, but only some aspects.

Every now and then the BBC homes in on programmes about some period, but it tends to be rather comic book stuff, with little effort to knit the periods or the themes together.

But as for 1812', when I did my A levels many years ago that period was one of the ones I had to cover, but it was European History and it never got a mention. First time I heard anything about it was when Lonnie Donnegan recorded the song, and I got curious.

I don't know when I heard about the Pig War. According to Wikipedia the only casualty was one pig. That's what I mean by not significant.

A fair amount of irritation,, distrust and bad blood, but that's normal enough with any foreigners in any country. Just, it's not the whole story.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Slang: 'The Germans'
From: Ron Davies
Date: 15 Aug 13 - 10:39 PM

I repeat, "54-40 or Fight" was not about a pig.

Also, it was not the only time aside from the Revolution and the War of 1812 that war with the UK was pushed for by US hotheads.   And there is also at least one when war with the US was advocated by UK hotheads.    You have some too, just not as many as we do.

And flippancy is not a good attitude when talking about a problem.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Slang: 'The Germans'
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 16 Aug 13 - 05:52 PM

It may not have been about a pig, but that's it appears to have picked up that nickname, and a dead pig appears to have played a significant part:

"The crisis came on June 15, 1859, when Lyman Cutlar, an American, shot and killed a company pig rooting in his garden. When British authorities threatened to arrest Cutlar and evict all his countrymen from the island as trespassers, a delegation sought military protection from Brig. Gen. William S. Harney, the anti-British commander of the Department of Oregon. Harney responded by ordering Company D, 9th U.S. Infantry under Capt. George E. Pickett (of later Civil War fame) to San Juan. Pickett's 64-man unit landed on July 27 and encamped near the HBC wharf on Griffin Bay, just north of Belle Vue Sheep Farm..."

That's from this site For all I know it might be folklore rather than history. Anyway it never came to a war, any more than any of the other differences that might have blown up over the years.

Incidentally, I don't think I've ever met anyone who has heard about it. I think I read about it in some believe-it-or-not article in which the unfortunate pig was the main interest. There really is very little awareness of historic disagreements between the USA and Britain, in either Britain or Ireland.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Slang: 'The Germans'
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 16 Aug 13 - 05:52 PM

It may not have been about a pig, but that's it appears to have picked up that nickname, and a dead pig appears to have played a significant part:

"The crisis came on June 15, 1859, when Lyman Cutlar, an American, shot and killed a company pig rooting in his garden. When British authorities threatened to arrest Cutlar and evict all his countrymen from the island as trespassers, a delegation sought military protection from Brig. Gen. William S. Harney, the anti-British commander of the Department of Oregon. Harney responded by ordering Company D, 9th U.S. Infantry under Capt. George E. Pickett (of later Civil War fame) to San Juan. Pickett's 64-man unit landed on July 27 and encamped near the HBC wharf on Griffin Bay, just north of Belle Vue Sheep Farm..."

That's from this site For all I know it might be folklore rather than history. Anyway it never came to a war, any more than any of the other differences that might have blown up over the years.

Incidentally, I don't think I've ever met anyone who has heard about it. I think I read about it in some believe-it-or-not article in which the unfortunate pig was the main interest. There really is very little awareness of historic disagreements between the USA and Britain, in either Britain or Ireland.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Slang: 'The Germans'
From: Don Firth
Date: 17 Aug 13 - 06:24 PM

Egad!! We're into family history here, McGrath.

I was going to do a whole riff on the Pig War, then remembered that I had already written a bit on in on the "John Dwyer – Songs & Stories" thread some years back.

Subject: RE: John Dwyer - Songs&Stories
From: Don Firth - PM
Date: 06 Jan 01 - 04:38 PM

Outrageous! Howdy, Mark. I remember, you and I rode up to San Juan Island together (in 1985 I think it was -- thanks for the lift, by the way) for the songfest at English Camp. And well do I remember Maggie in her park ranger's uniform and Smoky Bear hat, who, I think, set the whole thing up. Marvelous afternoon.

I know this is a bit of "thread creep" which I don't want to do, particularly on this thread, but I just have to stick this in: I have a family connection with the Pig War and all that. When the British were trying to establish a presence on the San Juan Islands (they claimed everything down to the Columbia River, while the Americans were yelling "Fifty-four-forty or fight!") they asked the Hudson's Bay Company in to see if they could use the islands somehow. In 1858, my great-grandfather, Robert Firth, who worked for the Hudson's Bay Company, was appointed by Governor Douglas in Fort Victoria to head the Belle-Vue Ranch at the south end of San Juan Island with the idea of running about 6000 head of sheep on the island. By the time the thing finally got settled by Kaiser Wilhelm and the San Juans stayed on the American side, my great-grandfather had settled in, was raising a family, and decided to stay. My grandfather (another Robert Firth) and my father (also Robert Firth) were both born in Friday Harbor (my great-grandfather came originally from the Orkney Isles, as did many Hudson's Bay Company employees, and I understand that, even now, every third male in the Orkneys is named "Robert Firth"). I learned some of this from Maggie, some from another park ranger on a later trip to the San Juans, and some from a couple of books on San Juan history.

John's song is factually right on! That's what happened -- names, events, everything! I'm amazed at the accuracy, but since it was written by John, I'm not at all surprised.

Incidentally, the Captain Pickett, who was in command of American Camp on the island, resigned his commission after a year at American Camp, went home, and joined the Confederate Army. This is the same George Pickett who led the heroic but ill-fated "Pickett's Charge" at the battle of Gettysburg.

By the way, Stewart, you wouldn't happen to have the tune for this, would you?

Don Firth

And here is the song, written by the late John Dwyer:

An 1846 agreement extended the boundary between the U.S. and Canada along the 49th parallel to the west coast and from there to the "middle of the channel" through the islands southeast of Vancouver Island. A war between the U. S. and England almost erupted in 1859, triggered by the killing of a pig and disagreement as just where the "channel" went — whether the San Juan Islands were British or American.
SAN JUAN PIG — John Dwyer, 1978

Let me tell you of a story of a San Juan pig.
It wasn't worth much cause it wasn't very big,
But it rooted in a garden and it nearly caused a fray,
Between the King of England and the U. S. A.

Now the Pig it was Canadian, the settler was a Yank
What the pig did to his garden was more than just a prank,
For it dug up his potatoes and it tore down his fence,
Since it wasn't just the first time Cutler's anger was immense.

When he saw the pig a-rootin', Lyman Cutter, he got sore.
He grabbed up his musket, for the pig he tore.
The pig saw him comin' and headed for the woods,
But he stopped at the edge, and Cutler shot him good.

Then Cutler felt regretful and went down to Hudson's Bay,
And told the clerk in charge of the porker he would pay.
Griffin said, "One hundred dollars, he's a prize breeding boar."
Cutler told him "I'll pay three, and not a penny more."

Then up stepped A. G. Dallas, and said, "See here, my man,
You're already trespassing upon Canadian land.
You know it's British country from Rosario to the west,"
"Not so," said Lyman Cutler, "East of Haro is U. S."

Well, the settlers they backed Cutler with their muskets in their hands.
The British thought it wiser not to make a stand.
The stars and stripes were hoisted to celebrate the day,
And were seen by General Hamey a-sail in' on the bay.

The general came ashore and he listened to their tale.
He was a man of action and to help he did not fail.
To Fort Bellingham he sent 'ere he sailed away again,
And down came Captain Pickett with a company of men.

Then up sailed the British with war ships one, two, three,
Which made a few too many for Pickett's company.
They had to find a way to even up the score,
So he sent to Fort Steilacoom and got five hundred more.

Well they argued in the Senate, and in the House of Lords,
And they didn't make much progress but they used a lot of words.
So they asked the German Emperor the boundary to define,
And tell those treaty makers where to draw the line.

Now the Kaiser gave his answer in 1872,
And said that Haro Strait was where the line went through.
Well they called it a war, but it wasn't very big
And the only one got killed was a little British pig.

Midi file of the tune.

Here's more on the "Pig War" from HistoryLink.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Slang: 'The Germans'
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 17 Aug 13 - 06:49 PM

Lovely stuff. But since the pig's identified as Canadian in the second verse, maybe that last line should have been

And the only one got killed was that poor Canadian pig

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Slang: 'The Germans'
From: Don Firth
Date: 17 Aug 13 - 07:32 PM

I don't know what John was thinking when he wrote "Canadian" rather than "English" (I don't think the pig had a passport). The farmer who owned the pig was English, as I understand it.

Local folklore has it that the English farmer and the American farmer (each considering the other an interloper) had had words several times about its rooting up potatoes in the American farmer's garden. The American would yell, "You keep your pig out of my potatoes!" in response to which the English farmer would yell back, "You keep your potatoes out of my pig!" Cutler finally warned the English farmer that the next time he saw the pig in his garden, he was going to shoot it. The following morning, there was the pig again, so he made good his threat.

I also understand that the English farmer was going to sue the American for the $100 he felt the pig was worth, but the problem was—under who's jurisdiction? The resulting argument over who got to try the case led to the thirteen year stand-off, with American troops on the south end of the island and British troops on the north end.

I also heard that the British and American troops used to party it up together while people in other parts of the world were yelling at each other.

As mentioned, once it was settled, it was determined that the only casualty in the hostilities was the gluttonous but unfortunate pig.

If you're going to have a war, I'd say that's a good way to do it.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Slang: 'The Germans'
From: GUEST,BobL
Date: 18 Aug 13 - 03:23 AM

And does history record who got to eat the pig?

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Slang: 'The Germans'
From: Ron Davies
Date: 18 Aug 13 - 10:22 AM

Well, Kevin, it seems to me that if somebody wants to consult Wikipedia, the first thing is to be clear on what the question is. Wikipedia does not deserve the scorn certain Mucatters have lavished on it.   But you do have to to consult the footnotes on Wikipedia and decide, especially in questions of history, whether you trust the source.

However in this case the problem is much easier:   all you have to do is read carefully--not a hallmark of Mudcat posters, admittedly. I have said more than once that the crisis I have in mind in this case is best known as "54-40 or Fight".    If a poster just types this into a search engine, you get the answer clearly--even on Wikipedia.   It appears you have not done this.

It was not 1859, but rather the 1844 campaign, and had to do with the border of the Oregon Territory.   As far as as I can tell, no pig was cited as a casus belli in this case, colorful as that would have been. I also have heard about the pig factor in the friction you cited, but for my question you are barking up the wrong tree.   No pig will come down.

There were in fact, as I have noted more than once, quite a few Americans who around 1844 wanted war with the UK unless the 54-40 border were acccepted.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Slang: 'The Germans'
From: Ron Davies
Date: 18 Aug 13 - 10:40 AM

What appears to have happened in this case is that Polk rode this slogan to victory, but partly since he knew there was also friction with Mexico (which he was not tamping down), he was in fact willing to compromise with the UK on the Oregon border, and in fact did so after his election.

But as you can no doubt see there was no "special relationship" at this point--just rivalry.

   Nor was there smooth sailing in US-UK relations at the time of the Civil War.   If you want to actually be serious about the topic, you might want to try leaving the pig alone and looking up "Trent Affair", not to mention the "Alabama".

At the time of the "Trent Affair", no doubt there were quite a few in the UK who did not look with disfavor on the prospect that the US would split into two parts permanently--and they would be willing to aid in that endeavor.   Lincoln realized his admininstration would have to back down and did so.

If you read enough history you have a better chance to avoid rash generalizations.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Slang: 'The Germans'
From: Ron Davies
Date: 18 Aug 13 - 11:04 AM

I actually find history endlessly fascinating; there are always more corners to poke into.

Even on Wiki you can learn quite a bit.   It appears that at the time of the "Trent" affair there was a considerable fear an American army would invade Canada.   So the British had contingency plans to invade the US---taking Portland and large sections of Maine. It was thought by at least one of the British strategists that there was a sizable group within Maine which was in favor of annexation to Canada.

I have some books on this period and I will be consulting them to see if they support Wiki on this.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Slang: 'The Germans'
From: Ron Davies
Date: 18 Aug 13 - 11:19 AM

Wiki even implies that the feeling in Britain that Maine might be willing to "change masters" was a factor in postponing the planned invasion of Maine.

It would be fascinating if a misreading of Maine was responsible for the UK actually making the right decision in this case--to postpone the invasion.      I'll try to get some more information on this question.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Slang: 'The Germans'
From: Don Firth
Date: 18 Aug 13 - 03:42 PM

Ron, I'm not claiming that the dispute over the pig precipitated the situation. The "54-40 or fight" thing had been going on for some time, as had the British laying claim to all territory south to the Columbia River (which would include what became the State of Washington—where I live). The pig was an incident that precipitated the thirteen year stand-off on San Juan Island, where my great-grandfather had settled after coming over with the Hudson's Bay Company.

There are National Historical Parks on both ends of the island, English Camp at the north end and American Camp at the south end, where troops from the respective countries were stationed, pending possible hostilities. But during the some thirteen years (as I understand it) that the "Pig War" hung fire, there was a lot of fraternization with "the enemy." As I mentioned above, they would often get together at either one camp or another and "party it up."

An interesting side issue was Captain (later, General) George Pickett (good article in Wikipedia HERE). He was a Southerner, and it was known that there was a great chance of a Civil War pending. He was under secret orders from the South to try to get the United States involved in some kind of conflict, so that when the South tried to secede, the North would be too involved to offer much opposition. A war with the English, or a major war with the Indians, might do nicely.

Among other things, he issued orders that any large group of Indians who approached the island were to be immediately fired upon. This, knowing full well that every year a flotilla of about 6,000 Haida war canoes came down through the Straits of Georgia from the Queen Charlotte Islands, carrying Indians to help the local farmers with their harvest, in turn for a share of the crops.

Fortunately, cooler heads prevailed.

A brief but good rundown of the situation HERE.

As I mentioned, my great-grandfather came "'round the Horn" with the Hudson's Bay Company to Victoria, where Governor Douglas placed him in charge of the Belle-Vue ranch at the south end of San Juan Island. Once the dust cleared, he decided to settle there, returned to Scotand, married his sweetheart, Jessie, and brought her back to San Juan Island where they settled in and raised a family, which included my grandfather, then my father, who was born there, and miscellaneous aunts, and cousins by the dozens.

So I do have an interest in local history.

I was amazed when, on a trip to San Juan Island to visit some of those cousins and generally learn more about my father's birthplace, a park ranger at the American Camp asked me my name. When I told her and she heard my last name, she practically genuflected!!

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Slang: 'The Germans'
From: Ron Davies
Date: 18 Aug 13 - 05:10 PM

Don, I didn't direct any comment to you.   You are one of the people who reads posts, knows a lot about history, and not somebody from outside the US who wants to tell us about our own history.   Would there were more like you.

I did say "Well, Kevin...."

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Slang: 'The Germans'
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 18 Aug 13 - 05:49 PM

Occasional hot air from hot heads, occasionally even hot heads in high places, but no actual fighting.   In other words, nothing significant.   Never even a withdrawn ambassador or an expulsion of embassy staff.

Obviously there were some people in Britain and other countries who rather hoped the Civil War would mean the break-up of the USA, and who wouldn't have been averse to helping that along if the chance had arisen. After all there were a great many people in America who wanted that to happen, otherwise there wouldn't have been a Civil War. But popular sentiment in Britain was very much for Abolition.

In the same way many people in the USA always favoured the end of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland, and were pleased when it happened.

But war? No way.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Slang: 'The Germans'
From: Ron Davies
Date: 19 Aug 13 - 09:50 AM

"But war. No way".

Kevin, you may take my word for it. You do not live in the US. I've tried to tell you about the strong militaristic streak in the US.   If the British had in fact invaded Maine in 1861 and US citizens had been killed, there would have been war.   Lincoln could not have prevented it--though it would have been disastrous for the US, and possibly for the UK.

And it appears that such an invasion was planned.   It's very lucky for all sides that it was postponed, since it appears that it was considered necessary by some British strategists as a pre-emptive strike against the feared invasion of Canada.

By the way, "were pleased when it (breakup of the UK and Ireland) happened".   What do you mean by this?    Are you implying that all of Ireland was part of the UK?   I think the irish have always disagreed with this.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Slang: 'The Germans'
From: Ron Davies
Date: 19 Aug 13 - 09:52 AM

"the Irish"

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Slang: 'The Germans'
From: MartinRyan
Date: 19 Aug 13 - 10:26 AM

Are you implying that all of Ireland was part of the UK?

????

It was.

Regards

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Slang: 'The Germans'
From: Ron Davies
Date: 19 Aug 13 - 10:41 AM

Did the Irish agree?

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Slang: 'The Germans'
From: MartinRyan
Date: 19 Aug 13 - 10:55 AM

Ron

Sorry - that's a daft question!

Regards

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Slang: 'The Germans'
From: Ron Davies
Date: 19 Aug 13 - 11:11 AM

Sorry, it is not in fact a daft question--and I suspect you know this.   The attempted parallel was between the UK view on the US splitting in two and the US view on ireland becoming independent.

We have always felt Ireland's independence was a matter of justice.

Have you always felt the seceding of the South was a matter of justice?

Yes or no.   No tome necessary.

Thanks so much.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Slang: 'The Germans'
From: Ron Davies
Date: 19 Aug 13 - 11:31 AM

To try to preclude any chance for sophistry:

Ireland has the right to be independent.

Did the US South have the right to be independent?

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Slang: 'The Germans'
From: MartinRyan
Date: 19 Aug 13 - 11:39 AM

Apologies for interjecting a simple fact into such a sophisticated argument.

Regards

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Slang: 'The Germans'
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 19 Aug 13 - 03:46 PM

It's not a matter of "if the British had invaded Maine there would have been a war. If the British had invaded Maine that would in itself have been an act of war, and a state of war would have existed. It might have been a small war, It might have been a big war. But it didn't happen.

If my uncle was a woman she'd be my aunt.

As for the rights and wrongs of the US and the UK breaking apart, that's completely irrelevant. In the event the US didn't break up, and the UK did, and the two countries never went to war over it.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Slang: 'The Germans'
From: Leadbelly
Date: 19 Aug 13 - 05:30 PM

What an interesting discussion! Couldn't understand all without a dictionary because I'm german.
But one thing I would like to correct. Ron isn't an a.....e. In an other tread obviously he was simply a little bit of arrogant or satyric to a nice Italian.
That's all right, Ron?
Believe, that you're highly intelligent.Like all others in this ongoing discussion.
And now:go on, friends.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Slang: 'The Germans'
From: Don Firth
Date: 19 Aug 13 - 09:34 PM

"Have you always felt the seceding of the South was a matter of justice?"

No.

The North objected to slavery on moral grounds, and when the South wanted to extend slavery into the Western Territories, Lincoln and the Republican Party opposed the big, slave-owning plantation owners (my, how things have changed!). That's when the South's move to secede began.

I don't believe Ireland had a slavery issue. Did they?

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Slang: 'The Germans'
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 19 Aug 13 - 10:10 PM

It's not relevant to the question of relation between Britain and the USA - but thread drift is how the Mudcat works I suppose. Here's how I see it.

The thing is, there were two issues involved. The right to secede is in itself arguably intrinsic in setting up any kind of union. It's written into the European Union documents, for example, but I don't think that if it hadn't been that right would in any way cease to exist.

The constitutional set up with the United States was if course different, but I would suggest that for that right to be extinguished, It would have needed to be formally excluded in the USA Constitution, which it wasn't.

On the other hand no country has a right to operate a system involving chattel slavery, and it is reasonable to claim that its neighbours have the right to intervene to bring that to an end.

Yet another complication is that when the war started there was no question of imposing abolition on the states seeking to secede. In fact it was clearly stated at that point that if they stayed in the Union they could mantain the system within their territory. So formally the point at issue from the North's point of view was preventing secession rather than ending slavery.

It would have been hard for lookers-on to know where the balance of justice lay. Fortunately, I would imagine they would have felt, it wasn't up to them to determine that.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Slang: 'The Germans'
From: Ron Davies
Date: 19 Aug 13 - 11:09 PM

The problem is with Kevin's post of 5:49 PM.   18 Aug.   All parties need to read this again. He states that there were folks in the UK who were in favor of the breakup of the US, and "in the same way many people in the USA always favored the end of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland and were pleased when it happened".

It's not "in the same way".   Americans were in favor of independence for Ireland as a matter of justice.   Only if you feel that the secession of the South was a matter of justice for the South is there a parallel.


I'm not surprised some want to dodge the issue. (Again, Don, I'm not addressing you.)

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Slang: 'The Germans'
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 20 Aug 13 - 04:30 AM

A bat is a mammal in the same way that a horse is a mammal. That is because they are both mammals. They are also mammals in a different way from each other. The way we use language is confusing.

"Justice" would have been only one possible reason someone might have favoured Southern secession. Perceived national advantage tends to be a stronger motive in such issues.

In any case, as I argued in my previous post, there was a case for arguing that there was an intrinsic right of secession - and at the same time that the question of slavery transcended that right in this case.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Slang: 'The Germans'
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 20 Aug 13 - 07:42 AM

I note that 1818 Thomas Jefferson wrote "If any State in the Union will declare that it prefers separation with the first alternative, to a continuance in union without it, I have no hesitation in saying, 'let us separate'. " This was at a time when the idea of secession by states in the North was a live issue.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Slang: 'The Germans'
From: Ron Davies
Date: 20 Aug 13 - 06:09 PM

It seems sophistry is hard to combat.


Face it, Kevin, no matter how many times you try to allege it, there is no parallel between Americans' view on Ireland's independence and Britons' views on independence for the South--unless you think the South had a right to be independent just as Ireland did.

On most threads, especially those on history, I believe in reading carefully, doing research, thinking, and expressing myself as clearly as possible. History is enough of a minefield without sloppy reasoning or encouraging the same.    You were wrong on 1859 as being the occasion for "54-40 or Fight" and you are wrong on this one also--there is no parallel. Nobody is perfect.   When I am wrong I admit it and go on.

If somebody drags an absurd connection into a discussion, e.g. bringing St. Paul into a discussion of putting "na-na-na" onto the end of songs, then of course any off-the wall remark and in fact ridicule is just fine in my book.    Otherwise, accuracy is a good goal.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Slang: 'The Germans'
From: GUEST,Grishka
Date: 20 Aug 13 - 07:00 PM

Ron, I wonder why you keep recapitulating a situation on another thread in which you definitely failed to read properly and to strive for full understanding, as everybody who cares can find out (- no need to argue).

In your current "feud", I am inclined to assign you more expertise, but even for the most sublime wisdom it suffices to write it down once.—

Wars are not the main sources of national clichés and emotions. Often it is the other way round. Still, the fight of the Irish for independence has raised romantic sympathy not only in the USA, but also in Germany and France, and presumably in other countries. It predates Böll's "Irish Diary" by far.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Slang: 'The Germans'
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 20 Aug 13 - 07:37 PM

I never even mentioned anything about "54 or fight", but only the odd little episode from 1859.

The point in common between anyone in other countries who liked the ida of the USA breaking and the UK breaking was precisely that - they liked the idea of the country concerned dividing. Why they might have wished that to happen, whether that might have been for similar reasons or not, and whether you, I or anybody else might agree with them is a completely different question.

In fact, as I indicated, I believe that in any free union there has to be an intrinsic right of secession. For example, if in next year's referendum the Scots vote for independence they will be entitled to have it. Nowadays that is the settled view of the Westminster Gvernment in such matters - having learnt a hard lesson in Ireland back in the Twenties. The same will apply if the people of Wales or Northern Ireland make the same choice in time.

Howwever a right of secession is not the only relevant right which can come into play, and the case of the South in 1860 is complicated by the existence of slavery as a motivation for secession. This would have made it impossible to see it as a simple expression of the right to secede, in contrast to the position if, for example the earlier calls for Northen secession had won majority support and led to the declaration of a Republic of New England. Or of course the position held by those who supported the right of Ireland to full independence at the time when England was mantaining an unfree Union,

But none of this is in any way relevant to the fact that in both the USA and the UK there were people who, for whatever reason, favoured a part of the other country breaking away.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Slang: 'The Germans'
From: Ron Davies
Date: 20 Aug 13 - 09:13 PM

Methinks the gentleman doth protest too much.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Slang: 'The Germans'
From: Ron Davies
Date: 20 Aug 13 - 09:23 PM

As for why St. Paul, etc.:   first, it happened recently so it's still fresh;   second, it was one of the most absurd juxtapositions I've seen in a while, and therefore just wonderful fodder for ridicule.    That was a fun thread.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Slang: 'The Germans'
From: GUEST,Grishka
Date: 21 Aug 13 - 06:10 AM

Ron (20 Aug 13 - 09:23 PM), of course you are welcome to quote other threads, fresh or old, and to make jokes. I was just wondering why you keep mentioning that discussion about the history of non-semantic yet meaningful and powerful singing or chanting, where your "reading carefully, doing research, thinking, and expressing myself as clearly as possible" was sorely lacking in spite of your claims to the contrary. Jokes have their places afterwards. Aggressive behaviour, including "ridiculing", is rarely conducive to one's reputation, even if one is "right". McGrath and most of us can do without it; your education should enable you to follow.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Slang: 'The Germans'
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 21 Aug 13 - 08:48 AM

Aiin't thread drift wonderful? I wonder where this will head next, assuming it does head anywhere?

I think when carrying stuff over from other threads - quotations, discussionns or feuds - it's as well to give some indication of the threads concerned.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Slang: 'The Germans'
From: GUEST,Grishka
Date: 21 Aug 13 - 09:27 AM

Here is the thread Ron was referring to, for those who are interested. No big deal in my view, and definitely not what I would like to discuss here.

Romantic feelings towards Ireland are a more interesting topic. The above post

From: GUEST,JTT
Date: 11 Aug 13 - 02:21 PM
Good piece by the Irish novelist Hugo Hamilton here, by the way

gives us an important hint with respect to postwar Germany, but the phenomenon is much older and also known in other countries. Dreams of Ireland imagined a people of higher integrity and self-identity than found in continental Europe. Strangely enough, our avid reading of "A Portrait of the Artist as a Young Man" did not destroy that image, but amplified it. (I was about to quote St. Paul: "Read Joyce" ...)

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Slang: 'The Germans'
From: Ron Davies
Date: 21 Aug 13 - 11:12 PM

"It seems sophistry is hard to combat."

QED

And Grishka, I'm sorry if you don't approve of the citing of the St. Paul connection. It was the luck of the draw as to what I cited as an absurd combination.   You're welcome to substitute your choice.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Slang: 'The Germans'
From: GUEST,Grishka
Date: 22 Aug 13 - 08:40 AM

Ron, please read my posts as hints to you, not as complaints. You have the potential to improve your reputation greatly if you cut your sometimes aggressive and repetitive rhetorics. Try to analyze why you attract the attribute "feud-addicted" - not my own words - as opposed to other posters of equally strong opinions. (Not being quite in the picture is a comparatively minor fault, which can happen to anybody, and does not concern this thread anyway.)

You scored some points in your favour upthread, notably when hurrying to Leadbelly/Manfred's consolation.—

Back to Ireland: there were periods in which anything Irish, "even" James Joyce, was very fashionable in France. In the 1970s I heard someone say in Paris "We are Irish from Northern Ireland", to justify their British passports. Many French would have loved to visit Ireland as the Germans did, were it not for the food ...

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Slang: 'The Germans'
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 22 Aug 13 - 12:09 PM

I had a look at that other thread. Bringing in St Paul"s views on glossolalia in the context of the use of nonsense words seemed quite a reasonable thing to do, and not an "absurd combination". Nothing worth anyone getting their knickers in a twist. Or worth discussing further.

Irish food? Pretty good if you care enough about that stuff to look around. Like German food in that respect. Personally I like to keep it simple, and stick to good potatoes and bacon with a bit of cabbage.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Slang: 'The Germans'
From: GUEST,Grishka
Date: 22 Aug 13 - 01:32 PM

Irish food: ... not my own opinion of course, having spent my early childhood in the Soviet Union, and later moved to England and Germany.

The French are not too keen on going abroad altogether, compared to Germans. Dreaming is more comfortable than reality. Some young rebels from northern France went to southern France for holidays, where the food is excellent, joining their German and Dutch peers. They assured the natives of their solidarity by sticking Languedoc emblems on their Renaults. The natives may have had similar mixed feelings as the Irish (- ask our expert Monique if you dare).

The important point is that Ireland and England are quite different in their emotional relations to other countries. Bev and Jerry (12 Aug 13 - 07:32 PM) tell us that Americans have a slight headstart in Ireland, based on the assumption that they are lost relatives. If they declare themselves Catholics and mention a St. Patrick's Parade, they are practically naturalized (even if their name is Mancini or Wysztawczocki). In Germany, mentioning a Cleveland Octoberfest does not do the trick even for a John Luther Schumann; good language skills (like presumably Ron's) will work, though.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Slang: 'The Germans'
From: GUEST,Airto
Date: 22 Aug 13 - 03:48 PM

In Ireland 'Germans' means Germans. There's no need to be reading anything else into the text of the play.

"Are they from Germany? ...We call them Germans... Where are they from? Is it Denmark, or Norway? It's somewhere like that... Ah, I don't know where the fuck they're from."

I would read this as meaning the character had assumed they were from Germany, but "now that you ask me, I don't actually know, they could be from some other country in that part of the world", or words to that effect.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Slang: 'The Germans'
From: GUEST,Grishka
Date: 22 Aug 13 - 04:19 PM

"We call them Germans", together with the expletive, sounds like the speaker is not too interested in their exact country of origin. "We call them all Japanese, though some of them may be from China or Korea" would be a similar statement, slightly short of PC, though not by far the kind of slur that McGrath mentioned in his first post. I think the question of the OP has been answered to everybody's satisfaction.

Tourism and nations is a large topic, though, also relevant above the line. Those who only look at wars and governments miss many important aspects, both in history and nowadays.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Slang: 'The Germans'
From: GUEST,Airto
Date: 23 Aug 13 - 04:09 AM

"We call them Germans", together with the expletive, sounds like the speaker is not too interested in their exact country of origin. "We call them all Japanese, though some of them may be from China or Korea" would be a similar statement, slightly short of PC,....



Exactly

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Slang: 'The Germans'
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 23 Aug 13 - 06:31 AM

Rather the same way Canadians get grouped in as Americans, or New Zealanders as Australians.