BS: LSD keeps you sane

Subject: BS: LSD keeps you sane
From: Jack Campin
Date: 25 Aug 13 - 07:55 AM

Long-term use of psychedelics is associated with better than average mental health:

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2013/08/130819185302.htm

Subject: RE: BS: LSD keeps you sane
From: bobad
Date: 25 Aug 13 - 09:43 AM

From the article:

"The authors found no link between the use of psychedelic drugs and a range of mental health problems. Instead they found some significant associations between the use of psychedelic drugs and fewer mental health problems."

Hmmm....that goes against the conventional information that has been promulgated by the establishment for so long.

Subject: RE: BS: LSD keeps you sane
From: Bobert
Date: 25 Aug 13 - 10:03 AM

I've done my share of LSD in my time and here to say that if you were messed up before taking it that you will be messed up after taking it but if you were okay before taking it you'll be okay afterwards...

Now if I could remember which book I put those two tabs of "Mister Natural" in back in the 70s...

B;~)

Subject: RE: BS: LSD keeps you sane
From: GUEST,Grishka
Date: 25 Aug 13 - 10:39 AM

You being another example, Jack? Of which side?

Subject: RE: BS: LSD keeps you sane
From: Amos
Date: 25 Aug 13 - 10:58 AM

I do not believe these results for long term. Flashbacks and random imagery can clutter up a mind, and that effect can last a long, long time. The spiritual benefits are probably also long lasting, but there are other ways to acheive them rather than depending on dicey biochemistry.

A

Subject: RE: BS: LSD keeps you sane
From: Bobert
Date: 25 Aug 13 - 11:29 AM

Depending and facilitating are different concepts...

Subject: RE: BS: LSD keeps you sane
From: bobad
Date: 25 Aug 13 - 11:34 AM

"I do not believe these results for long term."

That contradicts the study's findings.

Subject: RE: BS: LSD keeps you sane
From: Jeri
Date: 25 Aug 13 - 11:56 AM

Bobad, Amos is agreeing with you.

Possibly.

I've never done it. I didn't have the opportunity and didn't look for it. The way my mind works (it does, sometimes), I was sure I'd get stuck on something negative and wind up in suckville for a long time.

Subject: RE: BS: LSD keeps you sane
From: bobad
Date: 25 Aug 13 - 12:23 PM

I don't know if I'm on the same page here but I read Amos' comment as him not believing that there are no deleterious effects on mental health associated with long term usage of psychedelic drugs. To quote from the study:

"The researchers found that lifetime use of psilocybin or mescaline and past year use of LSD were associated with lower rates of serious psychological distress. Lifetime use of LSD was also significantly associated with a lower rate of outpatient mental health treatment and psychiatric medicine prescription."

Subject: RE: BS: LSD keeps you sane
From: GUEST,CS
Date: 25 Aug 13 - 12:42 PM

Very interesting. 130'000 subjects is also a decent amount of people.
It's just made me realise that for all the 'accepted wisdom' that use of psychedelics are likely to cause serious mental health problems, I've never actually read *anything* - barring random anecdotal scare stories - to support that popularly held belief.

Subject: RE: BS: LSD keeps you sane
From: Bobert
Date: 25 Aug 13 - 01:26 PM

Art Linkletter used to blame LSD for his daughter's suicide... Never made me want to jump out any windows and I don't know of any of my friends who wanted to either...

Like I said earlier... If you have mental problems LSD ain't going to fix 'um or make them worse... Might take you mind off them for awhile and create a little peace but when you wake up after tripping you're going to have the same mental problems...

Guess Timothy Leary and I would disagree on that...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: LSD keeps you sane
From: gnu
Date: 25 Aug 13 - 02:28 PM

Hmmm... the posts and the study conclusions coroborate. Sample size is 130,000. Seems legit.

But, I have a question. Well... two. First, were any short term users, including one time users who jumped of a tall building surveyed? Second, should society as a whole care enough about those who "have mental problems" to deny those that don't the benefits (from the study conclusions) of the use of acid?

Never did acid. I saw many that did at uni... they seemed cool. I just couldn't see devoting so much time to being high. I smoked weed back in the 70s but it was a few hours of high at a time. Nor could I understand getting drunk for more than a few hours. Just didn't make sense to me. Especially the sickness that followed it.

I recall one night. The shroom lads in my residence (dorm) had a spaghetti scoff with magic mushrooms from PEI. Got a few stories about that night but here is the one that bothered me. One of my buddies from off campus arrived at my door. He held up his student ID and asked, "Is this me?" Four hours into the wee hours I "looked after him. It frightened me. After he went to sleep, I laid awake and watched him in case he got up and freaked out. Maybe I over reacted but I was very upset about it. Apparently, it can't be all bad because today, that lad is one of the top *s at the largest privately owned * company in the world. But that night, he didn't even know who he was.

Subject: RE: BS: LSD keeps you sane
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 25 Aug 13 - 02:34 PM

The 'weed' smoked back in the seventies bore no resemblance to the stuff smoked today, such as skunk, which is far, far stronger and affects the development of the teenage brain.

Subject: RE: BS: LSD keeps you sane
From: gnu
Date: 25 Aug 13 - 03:39 PM

Weed is stronger today? I don't believe it. Even if there is ganja stronger than that stuff that is tied to a stick or Mowie Wowie or Mexican Red Hair or Lenanese Blond (HIGHly doubtful), the only way that can fuck you up is if ya dunno how to ingest weed. Less is more. George Carlin knew it and said it... ya don't get more stoned, ya just get lower on dope, man.

That stronger arguement is a bullshit ruse perpetrated by Big Drugs that wanna charge big bucks fer their weed. It's a travesty of justice intended to extort money from those who can benefit from medical weed and it's sickening in the extreme. In Canuckistan, new laws now increase the price from $0 to $28,000 per year for people who can't even work.

BTW... If it ain't no good fer ya and it don't do no good fer ya, why does the medical weed from Big Drugs cost that kinda coin?

If I ever get sick, I am growin my own. If they wanna throw me in jail for it, they can pay for my weed and feed.

Subject: RE: BS: LSD keeps you sane
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 25 Aug 13 - 03:40 PM

Just when you thought you has it all figured out...

...enjoy it, to the end!

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: LSD keeps you sane
From: Larry The Radio Guy
Date: 25 Aug 13 - 04:22 PM

Great song (Younger Generation). I'd never really listened to it before. Lots of implications....one could have a lot of great discussions just about that song.

Subject: RE: BS: LSD keeps you sane
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 25 Aug 13 - 04:40 PM

When I first heard it, YEARS AGO, I immediately learned it and performed it regularly..that and John Prine's. 'Hello In There' ..needless to say, some of those songs were as poorly received as other common sense/controversial(?) things I post in here!..others LOVED them!

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: LSD keeps you sane
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 25 Aug 13 - 05:23 PM

gnu, levels of THC in modern forms of cannabis are up to ten times greater than those in earlier types (eg in the seventies). A study last year in New Zealand showed a worrying reduction of up to 8 points in the IQ levels of people under 18 using the drug for a year. They also found even more worrying defects of cognitive function. Permanent ones. Drug use isn't cool, fun or harmless, particularly in the developing brain of the adolescent. I've seen the most appalling wrecking of lives due to all sorts of drug abuse among the serving prisoners I undertook to visit. (I include misuse of alcohol in that too.) I'm afraid threads like this that treat drug use in a light-hearted way make me shudder.

Subject: RE: BS: LSD keeps you sane
From: gnu
Date: 25 Aug 13 - 06:08 PM

Point well made, Eliza.

Ergo, my call for heeding George Carlin. If yer gonna do any drug, research it. If ya still wanna do that drug, do it right.

But charging those that can benefit from medical use of a FREE drug far more than they can afford is just plain wrong. Building more prisons and making laws to put people in them is a travesty of justice and that is what is going on in my Canada as I type.

Subject: RE: BS: LSD keeps you sane
From: Suzy Sock Puppet
Date: 25 Aug 13 - 06:21 PM

Right Eliza. You might think it's cool when you are young and invincible but when you wise up you don't. And you don't want to see your children and grandchildren getting involved with anything like that. It's much better for them to be getting high on life by finding fun and interesting things to do.

Subject: RE: BS: LSD keeps you sane
From: The Sandman
Date: 25 Aug 13 - 06:47 PM

Aldous Huxley experimented with this drug under controlled circumstances., that is very different from some young person buying a tab from a criminal
many teenagers were encouraged by Timothy Leary to take LSD,IMO,those people would in the main have benefited more by getting involved in TM and YOGA.
Timothy leary has a lot to answer for, he was an irresponsible idiot,Drugs are not an answer to any problem, neither do they keep anyone sane, neither are they a genie that produces creativity.
However, I am in favour of legalising all drugs, that does not mean that i am in favour of their use.

Subject: RE: BS: LSD keeps you sane
From: Jack Campin
Date: 25 Aug 13 - 06:49 PM

The study was about psychedelics, not cannabis. There's no reason to believe they have similar health effects.

Subject: RE: BS: LSD keeps you sane
From: The Sandman
Date: 25 Aug 13 - 06:52 PM

jack, marijuana and genetically altered skunk are as different as IPA and poteen.

Subject: RE: BS: LSD keeps you sane
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 25 Aug 13 - 06:54 PM

And if you're a beer drinker and try whiskey it's a good idea not to drink it by the pint.

The present law distorts everything, and the stuff about ultra-strength skunk is part of it.
................

But actually It's very unclear if that study. Included cannibis use - it doesn't mention it in that linked story

Subject: RE: BS: LSD keeps you sane
From: GUEST,BigDaddy
Date: 25 Aug 13 - 07:55 PM

Prefer "magic" mushrooms to LSD. I don't trust unknown chemists. Neither is a good idea for the psychologically unstable or insecure. Neither should be used to "party." Serious stuff and "set and setting" are terribly important.

Subject: RE: BS: LSD keeps you sane
From: Jack Campin
Date: 25 Aug 13 - 07:58 PM

The PLoS ONE article says what they studied:

We counted participants as having any lifetime psychedelic use if they affirmed use of LSD, psilocybin, mescaline, or peyote. We also examined use of each of the substances separately. Mescaline and peyote was combined into one category "mescaline/peyote" because mescaline is the active substance in peyote cactus, but peyote was also examined separately. Information was also available on past year use of LSD, but not past year use of psilocybin or mescaline.

So, they didn't look at cannabis.

My own anecdotal sample-of-one experience is consistent with this: LSD and psilocybin caused no problems longer lasting than brief confusion/panic and a mild hangover the day after, whereas cannabis could put me in a fuddle-headed downer for weeks. (I haven't tried either for many years). Neither came anywhere near having the long term depressant effects of inhalant anaesthetics, either nitrous oxide used recreationally or heavier stuff used for surgery.

As several posters here have said, potency of a drug doesn't determine how smashed you get on it. Most users of LSD these days take much less at a time than was common practice in the 1970s, and the main effect of cannabis being available in higher strengths is that it's easier to conceal a smaller volume - people don't get any more off their heads on it than they ever did. In most areas of pharmacology, a highly potent drug is desirable, because it's less likely to have side effects than a weaker one where a lot of the chemical is doing biochemical stuff irrelevant to the intended purpose.

The PLoS ONE paper:

http://dx.doi.org/10.1371/journal.pone.0063972

Subject: RE: BS: LSD keeps you sane
From: Bobert
Date: 25 Aug 13 - 08:05 PM

First of all, yeah, the pot these days has a lot more THC...

Second, many of us who used LSD also had real lives, real jobs, other interests...

Back when I was doing LSD I was also into TM... Always had a spot set up for meditation...

Life ain't all this or all that... People wear lots of hats... Do lots of things... Experience all kinds of experiences...

I mean, there seems that there is way to much emphasis on the "drop out" aspect of LSD... I wasn't like that... I was in college and doing well... I was in a band and we made money... We were into anti-war and civil rights demonstrations and organizing...

Tim Leary might have wanted us to "drop out" but for me and most of my friends tripping was done responsibly...

Just another perspective...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: LSD keeps you sane
From: Bobert
Date: 25 Aug 13 - 08:13 PM

BTW, I should say that I have used or known about drugs and decided they weren't for me: heroine, Quaalude, PCP, Meth, speed...

I would never use synthetic pot or designer drugs...

Pot is about what I am down to these days but would consider LSD under the right circumstances...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: LSD keeps you sane
From: gnu
Date: 25 Aug 13 - 08:30 PM

I guess my main arguement, other than the medical aspect, is that education is key and legislation that costs a lot of money but fails to address education and other tools which can be used by a compassionate society to minimize any possible damage caused by allowing people access to any "drug" is just totally fucked up. It wastes money and, worse, it wastes lives. YMMV.

Subject: RE: BS: LSD keeps you sane
From: Bobert
Date: 25 Aug 13 - 08:49 PM

Plenty of them, Gn-ze...

The problem is that folks like me who have been around drugs aren't going to get an invite to the high schools to tell kids to stick with pot and not do PCP...

I mean, the way it is now we can't even tell kids to stick with pot...

That needs a change... Guess where most kids get introduced to bad drugs... Yup, the "pusher-man"...

If pot were legal then folks like me could talk to young people and ave a lot of them from the bad drugs... BTW, LSD ain't on of them... It just needs to be used responsibly... That means weekends... Homework out of the way... Safe place... No driving, etc...

Okay, I have driven on LSD... Don't recommend it especially if it's raining...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: LSD keeps you sane
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 25 Aug 13 - 09:37 PM

It all starts with legal drugs - coffee, Coca Cola, beer, cigarettes... the gateway drugs.

Then there's TV, computers, reading...

You've got live with the truth that human beings go in for artificially adjusting their lives and themselves. Banning doesn't work.

Subject: RE: BS: LSD keeps you sane
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 25 Aug 13 - 10:43 PM

For many who have taken it, LSD has provided insights into their own behaviors, reactions to the world around them, interpersonal relationships, and has stripped away layers of insulation that are created since childhood by themselves and by society that tend to muffle and mute stimuli around them. Such drugs often simply give a glimpse of, not a hallucinatory world, but the real energy and beauty which underlie commonplace existence, the divinity within things. The temptation is to continue to use the drug to achieve deeper revelations, at which point it becomes a crutch, and even eventually a distorter of reality. But, yes, it can open a door which many hunger to see beyond, and which others are perfectly happy to leave shot and locked.

Subject: RE: BS: LSD keeps you sane
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 26 Aug 13 - 12:04 AM

Lonesome EJ: "The temptation is to continue to use the drug to achieve deeper revelations, at which point it becomes a crutch,..."

..and who uses crutches????

Lames.
...and so many thing can become crutches...religion, politics, habits, dependencies, co-dependencies, alcohol, materialism,...you name it.

Independent thinking, and true independence, begins when you walk away without a crutch.

BTW, EJ, great post!!!!

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: LSD keeps you sane
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 26 Aug 13 - 05:06 AM

Bobert, you say you have driven on LSD. I can't believe anyone could be so irresponsible. One cannot possibly be safe behind the wheel when under the influence of any drug, and the Police (at least in UK) would undoubtedly agree. How would you be feeling now if your impaired judgement had caused an accident resulting in loss of life or lifelong disability of an innocent victim? I suppose many on this thread will see me as a cantankerous old lady, a killjoy and stick-in-the-mud. But drugs, any drugs, are not 'fun' stuff. I just hope I don't find myself sharing the highway with someone who has indulged in this insane 'recreation'.

Subject: RE: BS: LSD keeps you sane
From: Jack Campin
Date: 26 Aug 13 - 05:36 AM

tell kids to stick with pot and not do PCP...

PCP is closely related in its effects to ketamine, which on recent (thoroughly confirmed) investigations seems to be one of the most effective antidepressants there is. It can't be easy to do objective research on the beneficial effects of PCP, but I'd bet there are significant ones.

Ketamine is one of the few drugs I haven't tried that I'm still curious about. It would take something like terminal cancer to make me try pot again.

Subject: RE: BS: LSD keeps you sane
From: Bobert
Date: 26 Aug 13 - 09:22 AM

Eliza,

Yes, I was 20 when I drove on LSD... It was raining and the wipers created these trails which were very disconcerting and I had enough wisdom to know that I shouldn't be driving and stopped the car and had someone else drive (who wasn't tripping)... Irresponsible??? Yes... But not for long and something I never repeated...

Actually, after that early experience, I didn't want to be in a car on LSD... I just wanted to be in my residence or hanging around this big park in Richmond that was very peaceful...

As for LSD being spiritual??? I donno how to define spiritual but it certainly allowed me to see things much differently and, as a visual artist, helped me assign value to mundane scenes and objects that I had never taken the time to value...

As for PCP, i. e. "angel dust"... Terrible drug... I tried it once... Not for me... Too much distortion... I mean, made me think that my arms were 50 feet long... Who needs that???

B~

Subject: RE: BS: LSD keeps you sane
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 26 Aug 13 - 12:32 PM

Bobert: "Yes, I was 20 when I drove on LSD... It was raining and the wipers created these trails which were very disconcerting and I had enough wisdom to know that I shouldn't be driving and stopped the car and had someone else drive (who wasn't tripping)... Irresponsible??? Yes... But not for long and something I never repeated..."

Now he just trips irresponsibly on politics and getting people to 'responsibly' hate for 'his side'!!

Rolls eyes...

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: LSD keeps you sane
From: gnu
Date: 26 Aug 13 - 02:03 PM

GfS... I believe your post at Date: 26 Aug 13 - 12:32 PM to be a personal attack and certainly not germain to the topic.

Subject: RE: BS: LSD keeps you sane
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 26 Aug 13 - 03:13 PM

Not at all, gnu...you must have ignored, the post above it where I said:


From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 26 Aug 13 - 12:04 AM

Lonesome EJ: "The temptation is to continue to use the drug to achieve deeper revelations, at which point it becomes a crutch,..."

..and who uses crutches????

Lames.
...and so many thing can become crutches...religion, politics, habits, dependencies, co-dependencies, alcohol, materialism,...you name it.

Independent thinking, and true independence, begins when you walk away without a crutch."

Many people(more than you might be aware of), transfer addictive personalities away from things like alcohol, or substance abuse, and channel that same addictions into other behavioral patterns.
Instead of a knee-jerk re-action, which seems to be 'normal' on here, you might consider what I posted, as a reality that people deal with(or don't deal with), and NOT a personal slam.
In a time where people don't take personal responsibility for their actions, merely pointing something out is often taken as a personal attack....far from it...it is something very REAL to consider.
To some people, turning somebody else onto a 'political nuance' is as ego gratifying, as turning somebody onto their first try at a drug...and drug taking is, more often than not, a 'social activity'.
I guess for those who get high alone, it would be as 'satisfying' as having a political stance, that you don't expound on, to others.
Just pause, and think about it for a moment...it might all come to you, and when or if it does, you might actually appreciate, that someone turned you onto it!....and it wasn't harmful, addictive but rather, added to your understanding or even introspection.

Glad to been of service to you....

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: LSD keeps you sane
From: The Sandman
Date: 26 Aug 13 - 03:42 PM

lsd and timothy leary have also been responsible for people believing they could fly, some have been severely injured and some have died as a result, a few others have suffered from schizophrenia as a result of taking LSD. those people who have suffered mental health problems after taking LSD , would strongly disagree with "LSD keeping you sane" ,for them it has been the road to insanity
leary was irresponsible.

Subject: RE: BS: LSD keeps you sane
From: Bobert
Date: 26 Aug 13 - 04:36 PM

Yo, gn-ze...

All of GfinS's post are personal attacks...

I mean, that how he earned the "in" GfinS...

Yo, Good Soldier...

I knew hundreds of people who took LSD in the 60s and none thought they could fly... That piece of misinformation came from Art Linkletter's mythology about how his daughter took LSD and then jumped out a window... First, she didn't jump out a window on LSD and...

...second, as I pointed out a while back on this thread: "if you are messed up before LSD then you are going to be messed up after LSD"... Face it, Mr. Linkletter wanted to find something to blame for his daughter's mental problems so LSD became his whipping boy...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: LSD keeps you sane
From: GUEST,bankley
Date: 26 Aug 13 - 05:21 PM

the brilliant Albert Hofmann lived to 102.

Subject: RE: BS: LSD keeps you sane
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 26 Aug 13 - 05:52 PM

Bobert: "Yo, gn-ze...
All of GfinS's post are personal attacks..."


ALL?????

Methinks you've been hangin' out too much with Don, and whatever he's got, just might be contagious.
before you were just politically block-headed...now your showing signs of being even further delusional...and taking your delusions, a bit too seriously!!!

Re-think it, man..you're blowing it!

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: LSD keeps you sane
From: Jack Campin
Date: 26 Aug 13 - 05:55 PM

I knew hundreds of people who took LSD in the 60s and none thought they could fly... That piece of misinformation came from Art Linkletter's mythology about how his daughter took LSD and then jumped out a window.

It also comes from CIA disinformation about the MK-ULTRA program. They disseminated a story that one of their experimental subjects jumped out of a window as a result of taking LSD. In fact his handlers beat him to death and threw him out of it because he was about to do a Bradley Manning.

Subject: RE: BS: LSD keeps you sane
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 26 Aug 13 - 06:08 PM

Interesting. Where did you get that?

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: LSD keeps you sane
From: Jack Campin
Date: 26 Aug 13 - 07:09 PM

Gordon Thomas's book about MK-ULTRA, for one. I've seen it reported in a few places.

Subject: RE: BS: LSD keeps you sane
From: Bobert
Date: 26 Aug 13 - 07:21 PM

Well, the anti-drug prohibitionists have said and done a lot of crazy things about LSD over the years...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: LSD keeps you sane
From: GUEST
Date: 26 Aug 13 - 07:40 PM

In his autobiography "Flasback," Tim Leary recounts trying to find a legitimate, socially beneficial use for LSD contrary to the mind control stuff the CIA was focusing on. He knew that mere recreational use to make one feel all peace and love and pretty colors would never gain favor with the government types (indeed, there was legislation afoot to make LSD illegal), so he got the idea and the permission to try it on habitual criminals in a prison somewhere in one of the New England states (Vermont? Mew Hampshire? can't remember...someplace like that).

He selected prisoners for whom the criminal justice system was a revolving door - in and out and in again was all these guys had ever known. This particular prison had high recidivism.

So he conducted scheduled and controlled "therapy sessions" in which the prisoners were given doses of LSD and then they sat around and talked about things, guided by Leary at crucial points when a particular inmate had an "epiphany" or a particularly poignant "insight." Sort of like psychedelic group therapy or a psychedelic counseling session.

Leary recalls being a little uneasy around some of these guys while they were high. Some of them were violent - rapists, murderers, armed robbers - and he wasn't sure how they'd react. Fortunately, there wasn't a single incident that would've ultimately jeopardized the experiment.

After the experiment ended and all the data had been statistically analyzed, Leary found that, compared to a control group, the rate of recidivism for his group of inmates went down significantly. Leary hypothesized that this result was due to the effects of LSD. LSD had shown his experimental group that there were alternative ways of viewing and perceiving life and one's journey through it, and LSD had provided those who partook of it a profound and life-changing experience - it had had such an indelible effect on those inmates that a lot of them decided to do something else besides "a life of crime."

Shortly thereafter, recreational use of LSD was declared illegal and other than its use in studies of a military nature (and perhaps a few clinical studies as it pertained to mental illness), the beneficial uses of LSD were no longer the subject of any serious experimentation (except by individuals doing their own personal "studies").

Surely Leary published his findings and this experiment could be retrieved for review online (through Harvard, maybe?).

Subject: RE: BS: LSD keeps you sane
From: Bobert
Date: 26 Aug 13 - 07:43 PM

LSD quiz: Anyone know who "Claude Jones" was???

B~

Subject: RE: BS: LSD keeps you sane
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 26 Aug 13 - 07:45 PM

I know that in Canada, they were successfully treating alcoholism with it!!

GfS