BS: AP:US adults score below average on world test

Subject: BS: AP:US adults score below average on worl
From: sciencegeek
Date: 08 Oct 13 - 06:21 AM

Hardly surprising, considering the current Congress elected by these same folks.

What Kornbluth didn't consider in his Marching Morons was that the lack of quality education would have the same result. Why do you think the Southern states refused to educate their slaves? And continued the practice until the Civil Rights movement - which the conservative right is still working to destroy.

Knowledge is power. An educational system that trains students to think for themselves is far different from one that has canned answers for students to learn by rote. And power remains in the hands of the select few... until it all falls apart.

Subject: BS: AP:US adults score below average on world test
From: sciencegeek
Date: 08 Oct 13 - 06:39 AM

oops... managed to lose the link

http://enews.earthlink.net/article/us?guid=20131008/70d1040a-1318-4da6-8690-79099c071582

the conservative right thinks it has all the answers, but it is turning America into a second rate country. Science textbooks are watered down because Texas is a major purchaser of textbooks & publishers cave into them. Religious doctrine is not and never has been science, but the battle to keep creationism out of the science curriculum continues.

The one thing that children do best is learn... what is standing in their way? Perhaps it is the very educational system that was supposed to teach them? Or more likely, a combination of factors that prevents the system from doing it job correctly.

Subject: RE: BS: AP:US adults score below average on worl
From: GUEST,Jack Campin
Date: 08 Oct 13 - 06:40 AM

How about a complete title or an explanation of what this is about?

Subject: RE: BS: AP:US adults score below average on worl
From: GUEST,Jack Campin
Date: 08 Oct 13 - 07:11 AM

Is this story from the same ultimate source?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-24433320

England is much the same (and I doubt Scotland would be much better, though it seems not to have been included).

The UK's particular brand of educational incompetence is ludicrous over-management, with far too many managerial posts, far too much setting of goals, rules and guidelines, and a ridiculous pace of completely pointless and hugely expensive fad-driven change in methodologies and organizational structures. Every new government seems to think it has a mandate to completely revolutionize education, and the result is that no system is ever left alone long enough for teachers to make it work.

Subject: RE: BS: US adults- below average-worldwide test
From: maeve
Date: 08 Oct 13 - 07:13 AM

The caption is too long to fit without the help of a Mudelf, Jack. Here is an excerpt and blue clicky link:

US Adults Score Below Average on Worldwide Test

KIMBERLY HEFLING From Associated Press October 08, 2013 4:09 AM EST

"WASHINGTON (AP) — It's long been known that America's school kids haven't measured well compared with international peers. Now, there's a new twist: Adults don't either.

In math, reading and problem-solving using technology — all skills considered critical for global competitiveness and economic strength — American adults scored below the international average on a global test, according to results released Tuesday.

Adults in Japan, Canada, Australia, Finland and multiple other countries scored significantly higher than the United States in all three areas on the test. Beyond basic reading and math, respondents were tested on activities such as calculating mileage reimbursement due to a salesman, sorting email and comparing food expiration dates on grocery store tags.

Not only did Americans score poorly compared to many international competitors, the findings reinforced just how large the gap is between the nation's high- and low-skilled workers and how hard it is to move ahead when your parents haven't.

In both reading and math, for example, those with college educated parents did better than those whose parents did not complete high school.

The study, called the Program for the International Assessment of Adult Competencies, found that it was easier on average to overcome this and other barriers to literacy overseas than in the United States.

Researchers tested about 157,000 people ages 16 to 65 in more than 20 countries and subnational regions. It was developed and released by the Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development, which is made up of mostly industrialized member countries. The Education Department's Center for Education Statistics participated..."

more at link:
http://enews.earthlink.net/article/us?guid=20131008/70d1040a-1318-4da6-8690-79099c071582

Subject: RE: BS: AP:US adults score below average on worl
From: Lighter
Date: 08 Oct 13 - 08:10 AM

Yeah, but America has the NFL.

*And* the WWE.

Subject: RE: BS: AP:US adults score below average on worl
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 08 Oct 13 - 08:35 AM

You're quite right Jack in claiming over-management and fad-driven changes in methodology are factors in the deterioration of educational standards in UK. But (and we used endlessly to discuss this in our staffroom back in the eighties) there are other factors too. We noticed even back then the enormous change in pupil attitudes, concentration and self-discipline. The youngsters seem now to be incapable of sustaining mental effort and enduring 'boring' slog to learn essential skills. They are literally addicted to their mobile phones and technology. They are distracted by premature sexual interests and receive less discipline at home and are consequently rude and unco-operative in class. Their teachers are nowadays tarred with the same brush, and can often barely spell correctly let alone speak grammatically. Add to this junk food and insufficient sleep, and it's no wonder standards have fallen.

Subject: RE: BS: AP:US adults score below average on worl
From: Greg F.
Date: 08 Oct 13 - 09:04 AM

All started with Ronnie Reagan & cuts to education funding, which cuts have continued & increased since the canonization of Saint Ron.

More recently, "No Child's Left Behind",standardized testing foolishness and the demonization of teachers and their Godless Unions.

The parents of children now in school were the first fruits of the campaign to idiotize America; they neither value education or are themselves well educated, so the situation will only get worse.

This downward spiral has now afflicted us with the "Tea Party" morons, for our sins.

See also "Idiot America: How Stupidity Became a Virtue in the Land of the Free" by Charles P. Pierce.

Subject: RE: BS: AP:US adults score below average on world test
From: Joe Offer
Date: 08 Oct 13 - 09:15 AM

Sciencegeek says he conservative right thinks it has all the answers, but it is turning America into a second rate country. Can't say I like the conservative right, but I don't really think they're having a serious influence on the intellectual downturn of the U.S. I think the cause is a basic anti-intellectualism in the culture of American youth, especially among black and white and Latino males. In the culture of American youth, it is anathema to be smart.

But I don't think it has anything to do with right-wing politics.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: AP:US adults score below average on worl
From: sciencegeek
Date: 08 Oct 13 - 09:18 AM

My father in law was a teacher turned small town school principal and finally a financial superintendent for a well to do school district. Were he still alive, he would hardly recognize the current educational system... though I believe the writing was on the wall back in the 1970s when he retired. He and others I knew spent their early years in the educational system closing down the old one room school houses to be replaced by the large centralized school systems.

The theory of more bang for the buck in spending turned into schools that became more concerned with grabbing more allocations of money and pushing kids through the system than actually doing their mission of teaching kids.

I was fairly young when I realized that I didn't really need school to learn... I just needed it for that piece of paper that could get me in the door. For many in the worst of the low income school districts... the only door they see is the one leading to violence and crime.

Poor education is a social issue that needs to be addressed on all levels... not with platitudes.

Subject: RE: BS: AP:US adults score below average on world test
From: Greg F.
Date: 08 Oct 13 - 09:42 AM

But I don't think it has anything to do with right-wing politics.

Joe- what about the right-wing budget cuts, the right-wing demonization of teachers & teachers unions, the right-wing promotion of charter schools & defunding of Public Education, the right-wing embracing of creationism, the right-wing promotion of gimmicks like "No Child's Left Behind", the right-wing denial of global climate change, the right-wing solution to any and all problems of "throwing budget cuts at it" & etc?.

I don't think Black and Hispanic youth have anything to do with these, have they?

Subject: RE: BS: AP:US adults score below average on world test
From: Lighter
Date: 08 Oct 13 - 09:46 AM

> a basic anti-intellectualism in the culture of American youth.... In the culture of American youth, it is anathema to be smart.

Yes, Joe, I first became painfully aware of it when I started teaching college - long before Reagan.

Most students do not ask questions and most are very well satisfied to get a "C."

But that seems to have been true since at least the late '40s, when college began to seem like a necessity for "getting a high-paying job."

The point, though, is that the whippersnappers get their anti-intellectualism from society at large. Tocqueville wrote in *1840* that Americans, far more than the French, focused their minds on practical solutions to practical problems. Whatever existed beyond their immediate environment (and that included government beyond the local level) was of little interest to them.

As in every society, though, it has always been the exceptional people who have kept things going. The bright side is that with the largest population ever, it may be that we have more of them than ever.

But only maybe. The amount of real, available talent, though not measurable, probably has no correlation to overall numbers. We still could be dumbing ourselves into the ground. With the help of the NFL and WWE.

Subject: RE: BS: AP:US adults score below average on world test
From: sciencegeek
Date: 08 Oct 13 - 09:50 AM

Joe, I'm sorry to have to disagree with you. Back in the 1980s I got my teaching certification in general science, biology and chemistry.

The national convention that I attended back then had a number of sessions dealing with the watering down of the science curriculum, especially in biology. The battle still goes on... many of the same folks who vote for the conservative right think that creationism is science and more valid than evolutionary theory. The ban on stem cell research was ideological and purely a right wing agenda item.

I know more than a few home schooled and Christian school kids that are so ignorant of science it is scary. Why do you think the Republicans are not opposed to immigrants with science and engineering training? They want to have their cake & eat it too.

I never agreed with some liberals who thought that lowering the bar was the way to achieve equality... that just makes everyone mediocre.. it should be bringing everyone up to the same level ( or at least providing the means & opportunity) that works.

The conservative right embraces the same thinking that brought about the dark ages. America was born in the Age of Enlightenment by founding fathers who were liberal and mostly free thinking men who embraced science and reform within the limits of their upbringing.

The large corporations that endorse the conservative right are also those who would impose their own brand of corporate feudalism. Replace the term serf with wage slave and tell me the difference. How many others like me "sold their souls" for a pension & health insurance? At least I picked a system that isn't likely to go bust in my lifetime.

History has many examples of religious fundamentalism and intolerance taking root in free and open societies with tragic results. Islam was once the most advanced in science and culture... until the Islamic states came under control of the fundamentalists. 1492 saw the expulsion of Jews and Muslims from Spain - even all the gold from the new world couldn't prevent their decline. Russia fell twice... once as a Christian nation and then as a communist one. It doesn't matter the creed, just the inflexible attitudes that come with zealotry.

Subject: RE: BS: AP:US adults score below average on world test
From: Rapparee
Date: 08 Oct 13 - 10:16 AM

I long lamented that I didn't do well in algebra I and II, trig, plane and analytic geometry in high school. I did even worse in statistics in college. Then I needed all of them and had to learn them on my own.

But! Those courses I'd done badly in still provided some sort of basic foundation when I needed to really know statistics, modeling, logistical analysis, and a thousand other ills the mind falls heir to.

A week or so ago I signed a charge slip and an eight-year-old (or thereabouts) said in a shocked and surprised voice, "You can write in CURSIVE!!" I refrained from responding that I can be pretty cursive in speaking as well.

The simple abilities to add or make change or spell or create a coherent sentence are vanishing. i cn abbrev w the best 4 I no how, and 1 c4n 5p33k 1337 45 \/\/311, but I chose to do neither in the interest of clarity.

As my ol' buddy Bert Einstein said, "Education is about teaching you to think." My college, which had logic as a required course, has dropped it completely -- even for computer science majors.

It's well I've never had a teaching job, because I'd be fired the second day.

Subject: RE: BS: AP:US adults score below average on world test
From: catspaw49
Date: 08 Oct 13 - 10:49 AM

I'm with Rap and Greg and Sciencegeek. When you have states passing anti-science laws you know you're in trouble.....well except for the dimbulb, knuckle draggers who are passing those laws and the same type of folks who elected them.

If you drink the Kool-Aid and believe in the talking snake you are definitely not part of the solution and are indeed the problem.


Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: AP:US adults score below average on world test
From: GUEST,Ed T
Date: 08 Oct 13 - 10:55 AM

IMO:


Intelligence and invention fueled the Industrial and technical revolutions. The UK and USA benefited from both, as it controlled the companies who manufactured and distributed the technologies to the world.

Things have changed, these same companies, fueled by globalization and the search for cheap labour, have little allegiance to any nation.

Asian countries, especially those with talented citizens and a good work ethic, have benefited from this globalization and USA economic colonization - to the point that they now control (financially and otherwise) many former key western industries.

So, what is left for USA citizens? Without control/allegiance of the production-companies, the tools of intelligence and invention, a eroding work ethic, combined with high wage expectations, the future economic outlook remains questionable.


A "way out" for the USA is stressing "stellar" education to encourage the competative advantages of intelligence and invention for the next generation.

Subject: RE: BS: AP:US adults score below average on world test
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 08 Oct 13 - 12:13 PM

I put it all down to neo-liberal free market economics - an evil, pernicious virus which is destroying both our societies and our environment at a terrifying rate!

Subject: RE: BS: AP:US adults score below average on world test
From: GUEST,Ed T
Date: 08 Oct 13 - 12:25 PM

Regardless of the cause, the focus should be on routes to obtain a future solution - as it is likely unrealistic to assume that "the clock will be, or can be turned back" to the way it was "a happy economic time".

Subject: RE: BS: AP:US adults score below average on world test
From: GUEST
Date: 08 Oct 13 - 12:58 PM

[quote]
The UK's particular brand of educational incompetence is ludicrous over-management, with far too many managerial posts
[/quote]

My old school is stll the same size as in my day. Comparing the staff list with that 50 years ago:
Then 2 secretaries, now 10 finance and admin staff including 2 managers.

Then 3 language assistants now 17 other support roles including Home School Worker, Learning Mentor and Learning Support Assistants

Then 40 teaching staff, now 38

Subject: RE: BS: AP:US adults score below average on world test
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 08 Oct 13 - 01:26 PM

As a Grammar School pupil in the fifties, I took ten O Levels, including Biology, Physics, Chemistry and Maths. I wasn't particularly great in the Sciences, and German wasn't one of my favourite subjects either. But we were encouraged, not to say 'made' to study hard, endure the grind of learning without fancy technology or 'fun' stuff, and I and most of the others gained all ten O Levels, with good grades. I achieved good passes in Latin, German and French. No-one thought it excessively taxing to study three languages at a time. Nowadays (my delightful and intelligent young neighbour aged fifteen is a good source of information!) the standards are abysmal. Homework hardly deserves the name. Handwriting is appalling, and the laptop rules. He's 'studied' French for three years and can hardly speak a word of it. His pronunciation is execrable. 'General Science' covers infantile stuff such as why things may burn in a frying pan or 'name three flying insects'. These youngsters aren't stretched, they're assumed to be completely thick, and they oblige by justifying the assumption. My two nieces have graduated from University, and I'm left wondering just how 'advanced' their studies were. This isn't Education, it's a waste of time. None of this is political, it's a symptom of easing off in all walks of life, and a softening of hard effort in favour of 'entertainment' of pupils. Everything needs tightening up, right across the board.

Subject: RE: BS: AP:US adults score below average on world test
From: sciencegeek
Date: 08 Oct 13 - 01:26 PM

it is somewhat ironic that the hubby & I had just watched the Waiting for "Superman" DVD this past weekend & then I saw the AP article this morning. And not being as awake as I could have been, managed to botch the first posting of this thread... sigh mea culpa, guys

Education has always had poor teachers... some phrases come to mind like "Those who can, do... those who can't, teach". My generation had those who entered the teaching profession to avoid being drafted & sent off to 'Nam. As for abuses of the system... both school administrations AND teachers unions have their share... so what is needed is a fair system with clearly defined expectations and responsibilities coupled with enforcement from BOTH sides.

The baby boom after World War II created a demand for teachers and resulted in incentives to attract good people from the private sector. Likewise, it was difficult to lure teachers into the inner cities and away from the "American Dream" of suburbia. I am more and more convinced of the truth in "Today's problems are usually the result of Yesterday's solutions". So how about trying to follow the Iroquois method of determining the effect of decision unto the 7th generation?

And let's not forget... the thing kids do best is learn... and our actions as a society is what teaching the kids today how to behave and what to believe, etc. - just has it always has.

Subject: RE: BS: AP:US adults score below average on world test
From: Donuel
Date: 08 Oct 13 - 01:30 PM

I see America beginning to go on the upswing. Geeks are revered not hated. Anti science anti evolutionists are seen in an entirely new light ./
The young Republicans have watched their parents lose their souls over dogma and hateful single issues. They do not see the sense in gaining an election only to lose their souls. A black President has shown what a good middle is and his opponents are seen for what they are.

Are we headed to a utopian education, no. What was done was anathema as you said. Some of us were even turned into a Newt..
but we got better.

Subject: RE: BS: AP:US adults score below average on world test
From: GUEST,Jack Campin
Date: 08 Oct 13 - 01:31 PM

A "way out" for the USA is stressing "stellar" education to encourage the competative advantages of intelligence and invention for the next generation.

Competitiveness is what brought the present situation about. And if the US is to stay "competitive" in the global capitalist economy, the present educational strategy is spot on: no educational resources are wasted. Only a small elite needs to be really well educated, so they can run the show; a larger group needs a certain amount of technical knowledge so they can do the steadily diminishing number of jobs that really require it; and the vast majority are most profitably kept ignorant and superstitious so they'll go from one McJob to another convinced that Jesus is looking out for them - it's far cheaper to give them Bibles than microscopes, and you certainly don't want them learning enough history to understand the world they're in. The more of the population that stays ignorant, the better the capitalist system is functioning.

Th 1 brite lites th txt gnr8tion. There has never been mass literacy on the present scale in all human history. It's not literacy as measured by book reading, but worldwide, the volume of words being written on mobile phones FAR eclipses the text production rate of any previous age. People ARE getting educated, but not by teachers and not in ways directed by the capitalist elite. Nobody knows where that's going to lead.

Subject: RE: BS: AP:US adults score below average on world test
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 08 Oct 13 - 01:38 PM

'Education has always had poor teachers'. No doubt there were some poor ones, but in own my experience (as a pupil right through Primary & Grammar School, University, Post-Grad studies and then on the other side of the fence, forty years' teaching) I was blessed with excellent tuition from any number of teachers of all types, ages and backgrounds. I'm truly and everlastingly grateful to them all. But teachers now are, of course, themselves the product of the rubbishy system. And that unfashionable word 'discipline' is completely absent from the classrooms.

Subject: RE: BS: AP:US adults score below average on world test
From: sciencegeek
Date: 08 Oct 13 - 02:09 PM

Eliza, you are indeed fortunate. As are all females who are not forbidden to be educated or, at least, denied equal opportunity to an education and potential careers. A bit off tract, but still relevent.

It's not all that long since caning was an accepted form of discipline. I'm glad that I only got a few cracks with the ruler in my 8 years of Catholic schooling. And I was a "good" student.

But I do remember once being punished in kindergarden, of all places, for being "too bossy"... ie.- when we broke into small play groups, I lead the game & the boys followed instead of the other way around. Guess I was supposed to stick with the girls & their dumb tea parties, not mess around with trucks & other fun toys. Thank goodness my mom believed in letting kids march to their own drummer, as long as we followed the "golden rule" of good/kind behavior.

Subject: RE: BS: AP:US adults score below average on world test
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 08 Oct 13 - 02:57 PM

It's true, sciencegeek, not all girls were or are as fortunate as us. I watched Malala Yousafzai on TV last night, and my word, what a dreadful existence some girls have regarding obtaining any form of education, not to mention freedom to lead the life they choose. Discipline can be achieved among pupils without resort to corporal punishment. It depends on the strength of character of the teacher, and the support of parents in guiding the young. I'm interested in the structure of the curriculum in US. Is it applied nationally, or does each State have its own? Here in UK, the more deprived areas still have excellent facilities and equipment etc. It's just that the pupils themselves, from difficult backgrounds and communities, have little motivation to learn and gain qualifications. The Benefits System seems to be their only goal in many cases, as their parents (even grandparents) have never worked. We weren't well-off by any means, many of my classmates were quite poorly off. Yet we learned and benefited from the system. Does community and family poverty have some bearing on the poor standards in parts of the USA?

Subject: RE: BS: AP:US adults score below average on world test
From: GUEST
Date: 08 Oct 13 - 03:27 PM

No one learns well on an empty belly.

Subject: RE: BS: AP:US adults score below average on world test
From: sciencegeek
Date: 08 Oct 13 - 03:34 PM

Our educational system is a hodgepodge at best... and funding comes from local school taxes - based on town/school district property taxes and also federal funding.

Mandatory public education is relatively new- my grandfather's generation rarely completed a full 12 years of schooling, much less went on to college/university. And I was in the third grade when science became a required subject - thanks to Sputnik and more than a little egg on our faces at being beat into space. Boy, I can still remember the panic in the school as nuns and lay teachers tried to come to grips with teaching science. LOL

The federal government is able to use their federal funding to come up with some standards... but they seem to be more about the infrastructure than academic content. The state education departments have more control over content, but there is still the anarchy of individual school districts & their boards of education that control how money is raised & spent. That is how creationists keep trying come in by the back door... and boy, do we ever have a bunch of back doors.

The legacy of our colonial past, where the large landowners would support a small school and pay for the teacher, has seen a few modifications over the years, but it still comes down to each school district has to raise money through property taxes... supposedly supplemented by the various state lotteries that never seem to bridge the gap.

These are generalities, because 50 states plus the territories & District of Columbia can not be simply summed up. But a wealthy school district can support all kinds of perks that are beyond the means of a poor school district.

Back when I was in high school, they had advanced placement tests... and a well funded school district actually had classes devoted to teaching kids to do well on them - a passing grade qualified you to get automatic college credit for certain courses. Kids from my school were bused in to take the test, without any preparation at all.
So the grade of C that I got on the test might well have been an A if I had had the opportunity to take an advanced placement class. But, hey, I got out of taking the second sememster of Freshman Lit thanks to my passing grade... a savings of 4 credit hours at $90 an hour. Big money for us.

Subject: RE: BS: AP:US adults score below average on world test
From: Greg F.
Date: 08 Oct 13 - 05:49 PM

I see America beginning to go on the upswing.

You need a trip to the occulist, amigo. Anmd soon.

Subject: RE: BS: AP:US adults score below average on world test
From: Andrez
Date: 08 Oct 13 - 07:19 PM

Sadly Australian Adults arent doing too well either in the literacy stakes. For those who are interested, this is a recent report from ABC Radio National: A Literay Deficit.

Cheers,

Andrez

http://www.abc.net.au/radionational/programs/backgroundbriefing/2013-09-22/4962902

Subject: RE: BS: AP:US adults score below average on world test
From: Bobert
Date: 08 Oct 13 - 07:30 PM

We've seen a 30 year long assault on public education and a shift away from teaching critical thinking skills toward monkey-see-monkey-do rote memory skills (for a lack of a better term)...

Duhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: AP:US adults score below average on world test
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 09 Oct 13 - 03:00 AM

British kids come out at the bottom now for literacy and numeracy.
While we have been steadily falling behind, our exam results got better and better.
Who still denies the exams have been made steadily easier?

The collapse of standards went with huge increases in spending.
Those Asian countries now at the top teach kids like we used to when we were at the top.
Basic, cheap old class teaching.
Who would have thought?

Subject: RE: BS: AP:US adults score below average on world test
From: akenaton
Date: 09 Oct 13 - 03:15 AM

Exactly so Keith.....

Subject: RE: BS: AP:US adults score below average on world test
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 09 Oct 13 - 04:58 AM

And, 'Hear, hear!' from me Keith. I sound very boastful, but I'm only being truthful - when I began my teaching career, there were absolutely no technological aids, interactive white boards, computers, classroom assistants, photocopiers, overhead projectors, not even a felt-tip pen to be seen. It was me, the children, (48 of them, believe it or not!) a piece of chalk and a blackboard. And yet ... behaviour standards were high, literacy was high, numeracy was good, including mental arithmetic skills, handwriting was excellent (because I'd accept nothing less) and spelling more or less perfect. This isn't a case of rose-tinted glasses, it's completely the truth. And these were children from one of the poorest areas of Glasgow, many with lice, scabies, alcoholic parents, The Lot. A good teacher (and I was one) is all you need. And for those 'Up There' to leave you in peace to do your job. I'd love to put my old 'O' Level exam papers in front of even University students today. They'd be absolutely stumped.

Subject: RE: BS: AP:US adults score below average on world test
From: Lighter
Date: 09 Oct 13 - 08:57 AM

> A good teacher (and I was one) is all you need. And for those 'Up There' to leave you in peace to do your job.

Unfortunately, however, it does "take a village."

If the neighborhood/ town/ city/ state/ country thinks real learning is both easy and boring and that anybody can teach, the kids will know it and the outcome will show it.

In the US, the low pay and prestige of teachers is notorious. Though elementary school teachers are widely praised here for being "hard-working" and "loving their kids," the pay still stinks when compared with the corporate world and, at least back in the '80s, university courses in education scandalously attracted mainly the students with the lowest grade-point averages.

Subject: RE: BS: AP:US adults score below average on world test
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 09 Oct 13 - 02:37 PM

Well, it's true today and it was then. My salary as a young teacher was rather poor. In fact, my Dad was horrified when I told him what I was earning and said, 'My Directory Enquiry staff earn more than that!' But it was, and should still be, a vocation. However, you're right, Lighter, if no-one values education and teachers are viewed as failed characters, the pupils will absorb the same attitude. I despair, even though I've been retired for decades now, and can't see how things can be turned around. A new High School was opened last year in our main city, and each pupil was given a brand new laptop to use for their studies, a thousand laptops! But I doubt whether this huge outlay will deliver the returns they hope for, without concerted efforts to raise standards. Unpleasant though it sounds, one has to nag, nitpick, criticise (something youngsters today can't seem to handle) and insist on effort until they achieve their full potential. It can't be done merely with expensive technological toys.

Subject: RE: BS: AP:US adults score below average on world test
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 09 Oct 13 - 07:14 PM

It's interesting that for all the differences between the education system, and the politucal system too, in Britain and the US, they both end up bumping along the bottom, with US only very slightly lower.

Maybe it's something to do with the language...

Subject: RE: BS: AP:US adults score below average on world test
From: GUEST,Iain
Date: 10 Oct 13 - 02:15 PM

Does anyone think the dumbing down of education might just be deliberate? Critical thinking in this brand new world may be considered a potential terrorist activity.

Subject: RE: BS: AP:US adults score below average on world test
From: Greg F.
Date: 10 Oct 13 - 03:12 PM

Does anyone think the dumbing down of education might just be deliberate?

Ya Think?

I mean, how would these TeaPublican assholes get elected if the populace was able to think - at all, never mind critically?

Subject: RE: BS: AP:US adults score below average on world test
From: sciencegeek
Date: 10 Oct 13 - 03:16 PM

Well, Iain, I've felt for a long time that eduation in the US has placed the emphasis on indoctrination more than learning to think logically and for one's self. Just the multiple choice test alone implies that there is only a single correct answer... so much for shades of grey or different interpretations.

My brother once had a real idiot for an English teacher who drove him to distraction... his "revenge" came when he submitted an essay on spaghetti farmers and how they needed long narrow rows to grow their spaghetti plants. She gave him an A, never suspecting that she had provided the proof that she was an ignorant young woman not to be taken seriously. Lucky for her she didn't make her students read their works aloud in class... which I think my brother really wanted to do. Steve didn't get mad, he got even.

Subject: RE: BS: AP:US adults score below average on world test
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 10 Oct 13 - 04:09 PM

The fact that English speakers are likely to act as if English is the only language they needed ever learn could be a factor. Learning languages is probably pretty good for the brain.
...........

I can't wholly agree with sciencegeek about his brother's teacher. The fact that a piece of writing is nonsensical is no reason why it might not be an excellent piece of writing in regard to all the relevant factors that an English teacher should be using to mark it. It would be quite possible write a coherent and even brilliant account of how the Americanns never went to the moon. If you were marked down for it, that would be extremely unfair.

There was a famous April Fool's Day hoax on BBC TV about the Italian spaghetti harvest. No one dreamed of suggesting it indicated inadequate TV skills by those responsible.

Subject: RE: BS: AP:US adults score below average on world test
From: Lighter
Date: 10 Oct 13 - 04:29 PM

Critical thinking is an essential skill, but one can "think independently" and still be a fool.

In my years of teaching I never saw or heard of anything I would call "indoctrination" by any stretch of the imagination.

Of course, some will say that shows I was part of the problem....

But seriously, in the '80s and '90s I did hear a few students say things like "Evolution may be true for you but it isn't true for me" and "Reading history is pointless because it's written by the winners."

In other words, "I don't feel like knowing this stuff, and there are people who feel exactly the same way I do!"

(Or did I read those things on Mudcat?)

Subject: RE: BS: AP:US adults score below average on world test
From: Greg F.
Date: 10 Oct 13 - 05:32 PM

"Evolution may be true for you but it isn't true for me" and "Reading history is pointless because it's written by the winners."

Yup - we're back to the issue that believing nonsense has consequences.

Brain death are us.

Subject: RE: BS: AP:US adults score below average on world test
From: sciencegeek
Date: 10 Oct 13 - 06:40 PM

as for my brother's essay... it was to be on a real life subject matter... one step beyond "what I did on my summer vacation". sorry not to be more clear...

Steve intentionally set her up since she was a closed minded twit and had given him grief on a earlier assignment where he had picked Druids as his subject matter. She couldn't get past her prejudices... kind of like having a female songwronger for a teacher. She graded his English paper on what she thought Steve should have said about Druids... not on his writing ability and not with any factual knowledge about Druids - just her assumptions. Again... sounds like the 'wronger to me.

As for the spaghetti farms, she fell for it completely and thanked him for picking such an interesting topic. She didn't last long as a teacher thank goodness.

Subject: RE: BS: AP:US adults score below average on world test
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 10 Oct 13 - 08:50 PM

Drifting a bit here, but Google "spaghetti farms BBC" and you get the YouTube clip of the story.
.........
My suggestion that it's the English language with its omnipresence that might be screwing up the brains of kids in England and the USA falls dow because Australia scored a lot higher, and so did Northern Ireland. In fact talk about the UK doing badly is a bit unfair, since the study only had England scoring really low, just fractionally above the USA - the Scots and Welsh kept out of it. I suspect that they might have had the same kind of result as Northern Ireland.

Subject: RE: BS: AP:US adults score below average on world test
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 11 Oct 13 - 10:44 AM

I reckon Scottish schools have higher standards than those in England. They always were more formal and strict, and put more value stretching the learner, fulfilling potential rather than praising for pathetic efforts.

Subject: RE: BS: AP:US adults score below average on world test
From: sciencegeek
Date: 11 Oct 13 - 11:04 AM

"and put more value stretching the learner, fulfilling potential rather than praising for pathetic efforts."

too true... in the states we've had the National Honor Society that admitted students that had been recommended by their teachers and maintained good grades.

Now I see way too many "My child is an honor student" bumper stickers... for every grade. And these kids are no scholars, they just don't get into trouble.

Subject: RE: BS: AP:US adults score below average on world test
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 11 Oct 13 - 11:08 AM

No doubt England and the US have a higher percentage of people whose native tongue is not English. Among them are people who have hardly gone to school at all.

In the mid-1970's somebody did a survey in the poorer neighborhoods of New York City and found that 15% of the population could not address a letter or write a check. Lord knows how they would have fared on a test.

Subject: RE: BS: AP:US adults score below average on world test
From: Greg F.
Date: 11 Oct 13 - 11:12 AM

Now I see way too many "My child is an honor student" bumper stickers

Just more of the overall relaxation of standards and dumbing down. Lets everyone keep voting Republican, eh?

Subject: RE: BS: AP:US adults score below average on world test
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 11 Oct 13 - 11:20 AM

I'm afraid I'd be willing to bet that it's not the children of. Immigrants who bring down the figures, as leeneia suggests, but the children of native born English. It's worth noting that the Netherlands scores right towards the top.

Subject: RE: BS: AP:US adults score below average on world test
From: Lighter
Date: 11 Oct 13 - 11:37 AM

Hard to imagine, but scroll down to page 3 :

"Nearly half of adult Americans are functionally illiterate; they cannot read well enough to manage daily living and employment tasks that require reading skills beyond a basic level."

That's despite the fact that 85% (a higher rate than ever) have gone through four years of high school.

The source, available from Amazon.com, is educator Philip C. Schlechty's "Shaking up the Schoolhouse" (2004).

There are over 225,000,000 American adults.

"Nearly half" means more than 100,000,000 functionally illiterate Americans.

All old enough to vote.

(For all I know, the functional illiteracy rate may be *lower* than ever, but that's not the real issue. The issue is 100,000,000 and counting.)

Subject: RE: BS: AP:US adults score below average on world test
From: GUEST
Date: 11 Oct 13 - 11:59 AM

He is not illiterate. His parents were married!

Subject: RE: BS: AP:US adults score below average on world test
From: Lighter
Date: 11 Oct 13 - 12:01 PM

Left out the address:

http://catdir.loc.gov/catdir/samples/wiley031/00009570.pdf

Subject: RE: BS: AP:US adults score below average on world test
From: Jack Campin
Date: 11 Oct 13 - 12:49 PM

Schlechty sells a lot of books and whipping up scares is a good way to market them.

He appears to be a big noise in the educational-fads business (the same business that's been fucking up teaching in the UK, and England in particular, for the last generation). Does that make him any sort of expert in social trends?

Subject: RE: BS: AP:US adults score below average on world test
From: Lighter
Date: 11 Oct 13 - 01:53 PM

You mean he faked the figures?

Or only that American adults are world-class readers of thought-provoking books on science, literature, history, politics?

"Functional illiteracy" is admittedly hard to measure, especially since the measuring is likely to be done by vested interests in either direction.

However, my personal experience suggests that Schlechty isn't far wrong. Just look at the national bestseller lists, while keeping in mind that those are the books actually being *bought* by people who *like* to read.

Of course, "Fifty Shades of Grey" is flying off the shelves everywhere, not just here.

Subject: RE: BS: AP:US adults score below average on world test
From: sciencegeek
Date: 11 Oct 13 - 02:19 PM

Back in elementary school we would sometimes exchange papers and "grade" each other's work. My partner's paper was barely intelligible and I tried to help him figure out how to fix it... but here we were in the fifth ir sixth grade and he had given up any hope of improving his ability to read or write. I suspect now that he was dyslexic, but that was unknown to us then. Instead he insisted that it was because he was dumb and I was smart.

I tried to convince him otherwise, citing his ability to learn jokes and song lyrics without any problem, but the damage was done and he just knew that he was dumb.

In my current job I work with the public who need to read and fill out various forms... a daunting task for some. And I have co workers who have no tolerance for anyone who can't master the bureaucratic obstacle course our state government uses for obtaining "environmental permits". As if this gibberish of jargon was obvious to everyone. Heck, I used to take some of our paper products to co-workers in other units to demonstrate that even our own fellow Department members were clueless, so why should we expect the lay public to not have problems. Gads... I really need to retire soon!

Subject: RE: BS: AP:US adults score below average on world test
From: GUEST
Date: 11 Oct 13 - 08:30 PM

". . . (the same business that's been fucking up teaching in the UK, and England in particular, for the last generation)."

The following article is an example of stupidity in action. Major stupidity. It takes place in the UK.

http://www.theguardian.com/education/2013/oct/09/free-school-head-no-teaching-qualifications-leaves-job

Subject: RE: BS: AP:US adults score below average on world test
From: GUEST
Date: 11 Oct 13 - 08:41 PM

'"Reading history is pointless because it's written by the winners."'

That is not always true. We know for example that the history of the Little Bighorn where Custer got his troops with the Seventh Cavalry killed was written by the losers, despite the losers all being dead at the end of what the Sioux call the Battle of the Greasy Grass or the Battle of Greasy Grass Creek. Not a major point to discuss, but indicative that generalizations are simply generalizations.

Subject: RE: BS: AP:US adults score below average on world test
From: Bobert
Date: 11 Oct 13 - 08:55 PM

Yeah, if you want real history stay the heck away from the books that are used in most schools... Ya' gotta dig deeper... I read a lotta history and once taught "American History" for 1 year and the real story is out there but ya' gotta dig...

As for the lousy scores by Americans??? Hey, what's new??? We are more interested in rote memory and that has its limits in figuring out stuff... You know, like standardized tests... Lotta folks moving in the wrong direction...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: AP:US adults score below average on world test
From: GUEST,JTT
Date: 12 Oct 13 - 03:31 AM

The problem isn't that teachers' wages are low; the problem is that wages are unequal. Countries with more level wages - where the lowest paid aren't paid much less than the highest paid - have much better societies in all kinds of ways.
Eliza, have you thought of doing a blog about teaching in the old days, and posting up old O Level papers, essays, etc?

Subject: RE: BS: AP:US adults score below average on world test
From: Lighter
Date: 12 Oct 13 - 09:12 AM

> Countries with more level wages - where the lowest paid aren't paid much less than the highest paid - have much better societies in all kinds of ways.

Like the USSR?

Maybe elsewhere? Just trying to provoke thought....

Subject: RE: BS: AP:US adults score below average on world test
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 12 Oct 13 - 11:09 AM

"US adults score below average"
In England, unlike most places, it was found that adults were more numerate and literate than the students.

It suggests again that we oldies had a better education, albeit by a lone teacher in a crowded class with nothing more than a stick of chalk as an aid to learning.

Subject: RE: BS: AP:US adults score below average on world test
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 12 Oct 13 - 12:40 PM

GUESTJTT, You're now going to die laughing, but I'm afraid I don't know what a 'blog' is. I've heard the word before, but it's one of those Double-Dutch Internet-Speak things that go right over my head.
I have to say that some of the more modern educational ideology is sound; for example, one should give the student research tools so he/she can discover knowledge for him/herself, and access reference sites confidently. But in order to do so, one must have a modicum of literacy and numeracy at one's fingertips. Also, in just the day-to-day business of running a life, one needs to read, write and calculate on the run, without recourse to a computer or other technology. And being incompetent with reading will hold one back terribly in general knowledge about the world we live in. In short (sadly) one will be simply comparatively ignorant. I still think that firmer discipline is the answer. You can teach young people almost anything if you have their undivided attention and can insist on maximum effort.

Subject: RE: BS: AP:US adults score below average on world test
From: GUEST,JTT
Date: 12 Oct 13 - 08:20 PM

Drat Mudcat's hinky servers! Trying again to post this - I'll try posting three short continuing messages, after trying four times to post a longer answer.
1)

Lighter, the USSR doesn't exist any more. If you're talking about Russia, it currently has some of the most unequal incomes in the world, and is suffering terribly as a result. (And the USSR was full of corruption and quite unequal too.)
Look at that shirt you're wearing. The children who made it were paid around $30 per month. The country where they live also has some of the richest people in the world. It is a place of severe violence, low education, tragic perinatal mortality, where a Beethoven's or an Einstein's talents will never come to fruition if they're born into the wrong class.

Subject: RE: BS: AP:US adults score below average on world test
From: GUEST,JTT
Date: 12 Oct 13 - 08:21 PM

2)

Increasingly, anthropologists are coming to the conclusion that while it's important how rich or poor a country is, what is much more important is the relative levels of income equality within the country, or perhaps I should say within the society. If people earn an amount within an ass's roar of their well-off neighbour's income, they have better social outcomes: crime is decreased, medical treatment is better, education is better.
The understanding of this has been skewed by the fact that many of the most equal countries are relatively wealthy northern European places like Denmark and the Netherlands, but even when the figures are compared in poor countries, a country with relative equality (and so equality of opportunity) will have better conditions than one with relative inequality.
Don't leap up on your horse and think I'm on for a row about the comparative virtues of capitalism and communism; I'm not. I will simply ignore any thread that becomes an impassioned argument about politics.

Subject: RE: BS: AP:US adults score below average on world test
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 12 Oct 13 - 08:55 PM

The evidence that relatively equal societies are better suited to human beings appears to be overwhelming.

Read The Spirit Level:_Why_More_Equal_Societies_Almost_Always do better if you need convincing. Then look around you to confirm that the alternative of gross inequality just doesn't work, especially if you live in the UK or the USA.

And these education scores that set off this thread are more evidence. Just look at the league table...

Subject: RE: BS: AP:US adults score below average on world test
From: Lighter
Date: 12 Oct 13 - 09:34 PM

I said the USSR, because wages in the Soviet Bloc were famously "more level" than in the West.

Why should "more level wages" imply a higher quality of life? How "level" do they have to be? Do you have any particular countries in mind? If the government is autocratic enough to control wages so strictly, how does one prevent it from becoming as corrupt as that of the USSR?

Subject: RE: BS: AP:US adults score below average on world test
From: Thompson
Date: 13 Oct 13 - 03:28 AM

(JTT here; logged in because the server wouldn't let me post a reply.)

3)

Eliza, a blog is a web-log, which is to say a series of short articles written for free (usually) and about a subject in which one's an expert (usually). Blogs vary from specialised economic material to the care and feeding of fingernails to aggregate sites where lots of people post..
You can get a free blog by signing up on Wordpress (among other sites; Wordpress is nicer than most).
I'd love to read a good education blog.

Lighter, I don't know why, or how level.

Subject: RE: BS: AP:US adults score below average on world test
From: Thompson
Date: 13 Oct 13 - 09:03 AM

And for some examples, the winners of Ireland's annual blog awards.

Subject: RE: BS: AP:US adults score below average on world test
From: GUEST,Grishka
Date: 14 Oct 13 - 05:18 AM

Most youngsters will be motivated to learn if they believe it to improve their chances of success in life. This was evident in Western societies in the 1950s, when economy was constantly growing. Teachers, even those of mediocre talents, were appreciated as gate openers.

Nowadays, learning is actually more important than ever, but society fails to signal that to its youngsters. Instead, these get the impression that the world is sold out to the privileged, so that studying hard no longer pays for the less privileged. Such situations are known from history, normally to result in wars or revolutions.

Success has a financial aspect, but other aspects are much more important than commonly perceived by mass media.

Subject: RE: BS: AP:US adults score below average on world test
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 14 Oct 13 - 06:05 AM

Grishka, I've been thinking about what you posted above, and am inclined to agree. For example, with programmes such as Britain's Got Talent, The X-Factor, Big Brother etc, youngsters are indeed led to believe that the only way forward in life is to become famous in media terms. That would explain their obsession with appearance, designer clothes, false nails, tanning salons, hair products, putting themselves on YouTube etc. The poor things are living on an eternal TV set or stage, trying to get noticed. Even The Apprentice seems to show that competitive media exposure is the sole way to achieve a high-salaried job. None of all this demands an excellent education, literacy, numeracy and the rest. One just has to look beautiful and fashionable. However, during the Thirties in UK there wasn't much hope for the young jobwise except manual labour (if that!). Yet education was respected and valued and literacy was generally good. The 3 Rs, though somewhat limited in scope, certainly protected most pupils from illiteracy and innumeracy.

Subject: RE: BS: AP:US adults score below average on world test
From: Thompson
Date: 14 Oct 13 - 07:54 AM

Mmmdunno about this. In my (limited) teaching experience, most adults and children are motivated to learn when it's interesting and challenging.
The idea of a useful future benefit to their life… well, it doesn't really help when you're sitting in the classroom wondering if that really gorgeous person is thinking about you, or when you're sitting at home staring at the wall and willing yourself to be interested enough in your homework to finish it and get it over with.

Subject: RE: BS: AP:US adults score below average on world test
From: Lighter
Date: 14 Oct 13 - 08:10 AM

Thanks for the link, McGrath.

The book appears to have had a very mixed reception. The serious reviewers fall into the predictable camps, but the fact that they *are* serious tells me that most if not all of the authors' arguments are dubious. Only economists and statisticians are in a position to evaluate them, however.

As a matter of principle, it's very difficult to identify social causes and effect in statistical correlations, especially since society is crawling with independent variables. And it's even more difficult to develop sound policy decisions from statistics, much less put them into action.

At best, it sounds as though the authors have produced food for thought.

While less of a gap between rich and poor sounds like a force for increased stability and amicability, the idea of accomplishing it by legislation or decree without worse unintended consequences seems to be a pipe dream. (It's been tried more than once.)

And how to determine how narrow the gap should be to achieve what results?

I think zillionaires should give away lots more of their money, live far less ostentatiously, and be role models for values other than greed and self-promotion. (A few do try somewhat harder than the others.) But in the real world I don't see how you can force this behavior without intolerable repression generally.

Subject: RE: BS: AP:US adults score below average on world test
From: GUEST,Grishka
Date: 14 Oct 13 - 10:29 AM

Thompson, the only definition of some subject being interesting is that learners are interested in it. So we must ask ourselves why they are interested; the answer - again fairly tautological - being that they feel it to be relevant, usually related to the society they live in. If that society sends the message that maths are a sadistic torture and does not get you a job either, whereas beautiful fingernails really matter, chances are that fewer students will be motivated for the former.

The quality of individual teachers does have an impact as well, of course, but I doubt that average UK teachers were better in the 1950s than now.

Subject: RE: BS: AP:US adults score below average on world test
From: Thompson
Date: 15 Oct 13 - 04:30 AM

Grishka, I've done a little teaching, and honestly I've found I can interest people in *anything* by approaching it in the right way!
Lighter, The Spirit Level did indeed have a mixed reception, because its coolly scientific approach revealed facts that cut across people's strongly-held political views.
The writers, Wilkinson and Pickett if I remember the names right, are epidemiologists. They took the statistical methods that they would normally use in studying epidemics, and applied them in a meta-analysis of 'social goods' - things like the number of people in jail, the rates of death for newborn babies, the level of education, and so on - to various countries.
Normally we assume that if a country is richer, these figures will be better. But to their surprise, Wilkinson and Pickett found that this wasn't really the story. The figures tended to be better when societies are more level, rather than simply richer.
They were criticised for 'picking and choosing' the countries they studied, but actually their decisions seem fair enough to me; for instance, in choosing 'rich countries', they didn't include countries that were rich because they were tax havens, only countries that were rich because their inhabitants earned more.
It was a huge, huge study, which has already been overtaken by the crash of many of the countries they studied, which has changed the outcomes for those countries.
But that same crash has provided interesting sidelights on the 'spirit level' theory; for instance, in Greece and Ireland, equality has enormously lessened since those figures were gathered, and the figures associated with greater inequality - violent crime, less education, worse medical services, etc - have worsened.
One figure that the epidemiologists found had no apparent relation to equality was suicide; however, that's also leaped upwards since the crash, with 'financials' - people killing themselves with pills and shotguns and car crashes - rising exponentially.

Subject: RE: BS: AP:US adults score below average on world test
From: Lighter
Date: 15 Oct 13 - 08:43 AM

> The figures tended to be better when societies are more level, rather than simply richer.

Granting that this is true (and it's interesting if it is), what can or should be done?

If I wanted to make my society of 300,000,000 more "level," as Pickett & Wilkinson put it, how would I go about it?

"Tend" means that it some cases benefits don't accrue in spite of leveling. And when they do, what sort of effort and conditions bring the improvement about?

Subject: RE: BS: AP:US adults score below average on world test
From: Lighter
Date: 15 Oct 13 - 12:42 PM

Also, since they only "tend," even the statistical correlations appear to be "weak" rather than "strong." Correlations do not indicate causes.

In other words, it could be true, but for now it's all quite doubtful.

Subject: RE: BS: AP:US adults score below average on world test
From: Thompson
Date: 15 Oct 13 - 01:28 PM

Lighter, I think you're perhaps unconsciously misunderstanding the English habit of making modest claims. The figures show more than a tendency; in countries with more level wage structures - places like Japan and Sweden, for instance - the outcomes are better for virtually every one of the social questions studied (jail numbers, education, safe childbirth, health, etc) than in places with a bigger gap between richest and poorest.
What can we do about it? Perhaps as individuals, we can avoid buying from exploitative companies. We can change our attitude for money, so that we don't regard a high wage as a signifier of ability, virtue, intelligence etc (probably not much of a leap for most people here, who are talented musicians and not highly paid). What do *you* think we can do?

Subject: RE: BS: AP:US adults score below average on world test
From: GUEST,Grishka
Date: 15 Oct 13 - 01:54 PM

Thompson,

Grishka, I've done a little teaching, and honestly I've found I can interest people in *anything* by approaching it in the right way!
...
the English habit of making modest claims.

Wow! Your colleagues who complain about lack of interest are simply approaching it the wrong way? And that is correlated with inequality?

Subject: RE: BS: AP:US adults score below average on world test
From: Thompson
Date: 15 Oct 13 - 02:34 PM

Heh! (I'm not English, by the way, so am excused from modesty.)
Yes, I think teachers whose students are uninterested are approaching their subjects the wrong way. For instance, I met a brilliant teacher a couple of months ago, teaching English in Spain to bored adolescents. He has a class full of directed, engaged students because he hands over much of the direction of the class to the students themselves, getting one kid to get up and run a quiz from the blackboard, on subjects that interest them - current games, films, etc. All of the activities in his class are designed to engage students through their own interests.
And how is this correlated to equality? It's not; it's a separate discussion within the same thread.

Subject: RE: BS: AP:US adults score below average on world test
From: sciencegeek
Date: 15 Oct 13 - 03:21 PM

"One figure that the epidemiologists found had no apparent relation to equality was suicide; however, that's also leaped upwards since the crash, with 'financials' - people killing themselves with pills and shotguns and car crashes - rising exponentially."

Rates of suicides has often seemed at odds with social stability - and not seemed to fit expected patterns. But for some time now, I have suspected that it may correlate fairly closely with how an individual relates to the "social norms" of their culture.

Specifically, if a young person determines that their sexual orientation is at odds with what their culture condones, or they are subjected to bullying due to "being different" (and it often doesn't really matter what the difference is)... to name but a few possible causes. How many kids are kicked out of their homes by families that can't tolerate their offspring's difference... or young people escaping from mistreatment in the home? Not everyone thinks they can escape alive. Just some thoughts...

Subject: RE: BS: AP:US adults score below average on world test
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 15 Oct 13 - 07:02 PM

What, if anything, can be done to reduce the extreme economic inequality in countries such as the UK and the USA, which has vastly increased in recent years, especially as times have got worse, is a separate question. What seems pretty clear is that this inequality contributes to make life far worse for us in all kinds of ways, and it is healthy that we should recognise this.

Evidently there are limits on how far collective action by society can reverse this tendency towards increasing inequality. There are very possibly limits on how far it should be carried for that matter. However that is no reason to assume that nothing can be done and that nothing should be done.

The very least that should happen is that progressive taxation should be recognised as good for society, and that claims to the reverse should be recognised as pernicious nonsense.

Subject: RE: BS: AP:US adults score below average on world test
From: Lighter
Date: 15 Oct 13 - 08:29 PM

> The very least that should happen is that progressive taxation should be recognised as good for society.

I believe his has been true in the US since the modern income-tax era began in 1914. (There was a temporary federal income tax during the Civil War). At any rate, a so-called "flat tax" with the same (relatively low) rate for everybody is occasionally floated, only to be shot down by most economists as likely to bankrupt the country pronto.

While nobody wants their tax rate increased, it's only been in relatively recent years that some of the very rich have begun whining in unison that they deserve "tax relief." Oddly enough, they got it on the basis (you'll laugh) that it would give them more money to spend and thus boost the economy, helping all of us.

But at any rate, the US federal income tax remains progressive, a principle that has not been seriously challenged.

Taxes on gasoline, however, are notoriously "regressive," i.e., the same percentage at the pump for everybody.

> We can change our attitude for money, so that we don't regard a high wage as a signifier of ability, virtue, intelligence etc.

I think most Americans regard money mostly as a signifier of wealth, which, if not the ultimate good, is still way up there for many people, because multimillionaires seem to be on permanent vacation, and if they're under 60 they can get laid a lot.

We even have some millionaire preachers who flaunt their bling and Bentleys and promise their (usually poor) parishioners that God wants to make everybody rich, so load up that collection plate to help get on His good side!

Seriously, and pervasive "leveling" aside, the increasing gap between the top one or two per cent and the rest of us really is troubling. It is defended by the Tea Party (and their largely middle-class fans) as proof that "there's no limit to opportunity in America," and it isn't a problem anyway because the super-rich "create the jobs for hard-working Americans."

(Was it on this thread that I read the phrase "post-industrial wealth feudalism"? Or something like it?)

Subject: RE: BS: AP:US adults score below average on world test
From: Thompson
Date: 16 Oct 13 - 04:46 AM

Here's an interesting TED talk about part of this by a millionaire I've never heard of, Nick Hanauer; a lot of controversy over it, but his argument is well backed with figures; he says the people who really provide jobs in an economy are middle-class consumers.
Lighter, I've been thinking about your question on how a relatively level society results in better figures on health, crime, education, etc; it occurs to me that maybe it's partly because we see each other better if we're less divided from each other - we're not constantly spending our energy saying "Look at him over there! He's disgracefully idle" or "Look at her over there! She's disgracefully rich!"