BS: Nasty Stuff Out, Pope/Manning/others

Subject: BS: Nasty Stuff Out, Pope/Manning/others
From: Ebbie
Date: 10 Nov 13 - 10:56 PM

I just watched a video of a "Christian" woman claiming that she knew Barack Obama when he was in his mid-teens, that he was gay, getting money from "old white guys" for drugs, pathological liar saying anything to boost his ego, a boy with few friends and "known to have no interest in women and very much a part of the gay community", whose mother had very little to do with him and whose grandmother had nothing good to say about him (because they KNEW what he was like), that his grandparents lived in an apartment house, obviously with no 'money' so why was he able to get into an elite school?

Obviously it was the CIA or some other "shadow government who set him up". Oh, and three classmates/colleagues died within a "heartbeat of each other"; Obama is "known to kill", so did he kill them?"

Mia Marie Pope on James David Manning show; he is a real number in his own right.

Check it out if you have the stomach for it.

Now I see where Wronger gets his information. I guess we should be grateful he hasn't seen fit to *expose* the president to that degree.

Subject: RE: BS: Nasty Stuff Out, Pope/Manning/others
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 11 Nov 13 - 02:48 AM

Wronger apparently has voices in his head that are mentally ill, but that's his problem and not mine. (My voices may argue with me, but I usually win, or sometimes we might reach a satisfactory compromise.)

The news says that if you really want nasty nothing much beats Homewreckers.

[This is a report about the site. I obviously couldn't send a gentle lady directly to such trash - unless of course you have someone to report on. You can use the links in the article if that's the case.]

There a numerous such sites, and some say they're a good place to hunt if you're looking for a slut/gigolo but I haven't been tempted to investigate that aspect of it ... yet.

John

Subject: RE: BS: Nasty Stuff Out, Pope/Manning/others
From: kendall
Date: 11 Nov 13 - 07:00 AM

"Christian" lady? Not even worthy of comment.

Subject: RE: BS: Nasty Stuff Out, Pope/Manning/others
From: Bill D
Date: 11 Nov 13 - 10:57 AM

'Pastor' (arrgg) James David Manning

"Manning defended his sermons in an interview on **Fox News**, saying that "we also have to talk about his character".

Tells you all you need to know.....except how to (legally, of course) combat the nastiness spewing from hatemongers

Subject: RE: BS: Nasty Stuff Out, Pope/Manning/others
From: Don Firth
Date: 11 Nov 13 - 06:00 PM

Whatever happened to the libel and slander laws in this country?

Back in the early Sixties, I got disgusted with the unethical practices of the proprietor of a music store I was renting a studio from, so I moved my guitar teaching to a really nice store up the street. The first guy started bad-mouthing me to everybody who came into his store and even went so far as to try to get a coffeehouse where I was singing to fire me.

It got so bad that on the advice of the owner of the new music store, I called a lawyer. The lawyer filed a suit for libel and slander against this gink, who had to sign an order telling him to shut up about me—and pay me several thousand dollars in damages.

It would seem to me that Obama, or someone in his behalf, could sue these people (including Songwronger, for that matter) from hell to Sunday breakfast for the egregious lies they are telling about him.

Or are people in politics "fair game" for liars and hate-mongers?

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Nasty Stuff Out, Pope/Manning/others
From: Songwronger
Date: 11 Nov 13 - 06:19 PM

I know the video of which you speak. I posted a link to it elsewhere.

What surprises me is that people will doubt someone who went to school with Obama, but they'll believe a PAID POLITICIAN who said that Obama's birth certificate is authentic and locked away in a vault.

Various people have claimed homosexual involvement with Obama, haven't they? Time or Newsweek called him gay. Did a cover calling him gay. He uses drugs, he's a lowlife scam artist, definitely a bullshitter of the first order ("You like your plan, you keep your plan"), so what exactly in the woman's statement is objectionable?

Subject: RE: BS: Nasty Stuff Out, Pope/Manning/others
From: Don Firth
Date: 11 Nov 13 - 06:31 PM

There we go!!

Another ladle-full from the Songwronger septic tank!

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Nasty Stuff Out, Pope/Manning/others
From: Songwronger
Date: 11 Nov 13 - 07:46 PM

Here's a link to the video under discussion, and some quotes from it:

http://beforeitsnews.com/alternative/2013/11/mia-marie-pope-full-interview-transcript-description-rev-james-david-manning-interv

Ms. Pope was born in 1962, in California, and moved with her family to Hawaii when she was still an infant. Pope claims that she did not meet or see Barry Soetoro until about 1977. She said that she, Barry and other kids would hang out at the beach at Waikiki.

Mia Marie Pope says that Barry Soetoro "always portrayed himself as a foreign student."

While Soetoro was a little older than her and didn't always run around with the circle of friends that she had, Pope says that he "very much was in sort of the 'gay community,'" which she says that even back then was "thriving."

"We knew Barry as, just common knowledge, that girls were never anything that he was ever interested in, and as a young teenager….as a young girl…..it was clear to me that Barry was strictly into men," Pope said. She also indicated that she had no desires for him and said that they didn't get along, largely in part to the fact that he was "a pathological liar, even back then."

Pope said that Soetoro's lies were "egotistical" and always to "boost himself." She referenced Barry "bumming cigarettes," and said that as soon as someone would give him a cigarette, he would instantly turn and walk away, after he had gotten what he wanted. In Pope's words, "He seemed to be incapable or genuine about anything."

Ms. Pope said that Barry Soetoro was always "getting with these older white men." She recognized that he was one that had cocaine, which she said was "newsworthy" in the groups she hung out in. They then began to believe it was Soetoro's engagements (ie. Homosexual acts) with these older white men is how he "procured" cocaine.

"In other words, he was having sex with these older white guys, and that's how he was getting his cocaine to be able to freebase," she told Manning.

Subject: RE: BS: Nasty Stuff Out, Pope/Manning/others
From: Songwronger
Date: 11 Nov 13 - 07:48 PM

Barry Soetoro is one of Obama's other names.

Subject: RE: BS: Nasty Stuff Out, Pope/Manning/others
From: Ebbie
Date: 11 Nov 13 - 07:57 PM

"Barry Soetoro is one of Obama's other names. " Wronger

hahhahahah

Subject: RE: BS: Nasty Stuff Out, Pope/Manning/others
From: GUEST,gillymor
Date: 11 Nov 13 - 08:02 PM

What a shabby, small-minded creep you are, Songwronger.

Subject: RE: BS: Nasty Stuff Out, Pope/Manning/others
From: Don Firth
Date: 11 Nov 13 - 08:05 PM

"Barry," which is short for "Barack." "Soetoro," which he took as his surname for awhile because that was the surname of his mother's second husband, then went back to his real father's surname. Nothing sinister there.

In light of the fact that at least two of the brighter, more intelligent representatives in the Washington State legislature are openly gay—and the state hasn't sunk into the sea yet—Songwronger, if President Obama actually WERE gay, as this woman alleges. . . .

. . . what would that matter to you? And why?

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Nasty Stuff Out, Pope/Manning/others
From: Elmore
Date: 11 Nov 13 - 08:52 PM

Well, for someone who started out under such adverse conditions he did pretty well. (aside from the 3 murders he obviously committed. Hey, nobody's perfect)

Subject: RE: BS: Nasty Stuff Out, Pope/Manning/others
From: Songwronger
Date: 11 Nov 13 - 09:01 PM

Actually, I'm rather large minded on this topic. We don't know anything about Obama's past. Only small minded people would believe he's what Howard Dean said he is. Dean is a PAID POLITICIAN who told you (on behalf of the Democratic party) that Obama passed the smell test.

But Ms. Pope's info seems to fit in with some of the odd things in Obama's life, big gaps in his timeline, his attending schools that were far beyond his means. And the pathological lying then and now is consistent.

All I know is that Ms. Pope is more believable than Howard Dean.

Subject: RE: BS: Nasty Stuff Out, Pope/Manning/others
From: Songwronger
Date: 13 Nov 13 - 11:28 PM

Another interview with Mia Pope:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=K4ce1BNEfI8

Says Obama was a foreigner when he was in school in Hawaii.
Obama has history of faked addresses and social security numbers.

Says she's "Fed up with Barry." Calls him a clown. lol

Subject: RE: BS: Nasty Stuff Out, Pope/Manning/others
From: akenaton
Date: 14 Nov 13 - 04:07 AM

Why do you laugh at SW saying that Mr Obama has "other names" Ebbie?
Don has made an attempt to explain the situation......are SW's allegations correct or incorrect?

Being abusive to SW does not clarify the issue.

Subject: RE: BS: Nasty Stuff Out, Pope/Manning/others
From: DMcG
Date: 14 Nov 13 - 08:45 AM

Its to do with implicature, ake - or at least my smile was, so I guess Ebbie's laugh could be similar. A particularly nasty and underhand of deceit is to tell truths in a misleading way. (For the literary minded, that's how one of Shakespeare's greatest villians, Iago, works. He never actually tells a falsehood)


In this case, the statement that Obama has "other names" carries a overtone that he is engaged in shady deal for which he needs multiple aliases. Not that that is said, of course, just implied. And if challenged SW would merely say that no so implication should be drawn - it was just reporting multiple names. As I say, we are in Iago territory.

Subject: RE: BS: Nasty Stuff Out, Pope/Manning/others
From: Bill D
Date: 14 Nov 13 - 09:43 AM

I wonder if Ms. Pope knows Orly Taitz

Subject: RE: BS: Nasty Stuff Out, Pope/Manning/others
From: akenaton
Date: 14 Nov 13 - 12:49 PM

Thank you DMG.....would Ebbie not have been better to explain herself as you have done, rather than to imply that SW is a fool?

Methinks Ebbie's "stiletto" needs a few turns on the grindstone?

Actually I was unaware of Mr Obama's personal history (I don't believe he is a homosexual), but I would find the rest worrying if asked to vote for him as prime minister.
His history in the mire of Chicago politics would be the most worrying of all to a radical socialist like myself.

Subject: RE: BS: Nasty Stuff Out, Pope/Manning/others
From: Don Firth
Date: 14 Nov 13 - 03:04 PM

Mia Marie Pope outed:

Our Friend Barry
By Kevin David (Dr. Conspiracy)

I've not spent much time on the subject of Barack Obama in Hawaii, and that's my loss. Because of the recent birther flurry over Mia Marie Pope's interviews, claiming that she met Obama during two or three summers[1] when she and her parents stayed in a hotel in Honolulu. She described Obama as a "pathological liar," a homosexual and a coke head, I've spent some time looking back at Obama in Hawaii, and contrary to what Pastor Manning said, there is a wealth of information coming from Obama's actual classmates.

One source is the excellent film, "Barack Obama Made in Hawaii." Another is a book from 2008 titled, Our Friend Barry: Classmates' Recollections of Barack Obama and Punahou School, edited by Obama classmate Constance F. Ramos. I started going through the book specifically to refute Mia Marie Pope, and I found plenty of source material for that. Clearly the President was known as Barry Obama and not Barry Soetoro, as Pope claims. Pope also said that it was impossible to get in Punahou school unless you started there in kindergarten. Most of the classmates in the book started later.

But once I got past the debunking, there were some insights about Obama. Punahou was an elite school, and Obama rubbed shoulders with doctors' kids and the children of bank presidents. But there were other kids from two-income families, and some, like Obama, on financial aid. The poorer kids were conscious of their clothes. Most people in Hawaii are mixed race and Obama did not grow up in the atmosphere of racial prejudice that he would have experienced had he been raised on the mainland. In Hawaii, the racial distinction was between Asian and non-Asian.

Some remembered Barry as "genuine and grounded in himself" others that he was a leader. There's a neat story about a tuna sandwich.

Somehow these recollections make everything so much more real and human. It's nice.

----------

[1] The exact time is fuzzy. Pope always says 1977, but sometimes she says she was aged 13-14 and sometimes 14-15.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Nasty Stuff Out, Pope/Manning/others
From: Ebbie
Date: 14 Nov 13 - 04:32 PM

"Thank you DMG.....would Ebbie not have been better to explain herself as you have done, rather than to imply that SW is a fool?" ake 12:49 PM

I wasn't going to comment further because DMG hit it on the head with his analysis (Was it beyond you, ake?), but since you asked, Yes, I do think he is a bit of a fool. Pity, that.

Subject: RE: BS: Nasty Stuff Out, Pope/Manning/others
From: akenaton
Date: 14 Nov 13 - 05:48 PM

I don't happen to agree with your assessment Ebbie, I think that SW is probably correct and that areas of Mr Obama's past are being hidden. Whether or not public awareness of these areas would make Mr Obama a better president is debatable.

I think the whole furore says more about the state of US politics in general, than it does about Mr Obama personally.

Mr Obama has turned out to be exactly what I thought he would.....A creature of the system", not a "messiah", nor a "black man" of the stature of Dr King.

Subject: RE: BS: Nasty Stuff Out, Pope/Manning/others
From: Bill D
Date: 14 Nov 13 - 08:23 PM

"...I think that SW is probably correct...."

Why would you "think that"? There is abundant evidence and documentation of where Obama lived and went to school. Denial of these facts almost always translates to "I don't LIKE him or his policies and I will say/believe/accept any claims that cast aspersions on his character, origins or beliefs."

He is NOT a Muslim, his birth certificate has been authenticated by Hawaii, and no one could possibly fake a newspaper birth announcement after the fact. He WAS raised by his grandmother and had almost nothing to do with his genetic father.

You... and others... simply make every effort to belittle his history and character. And talk about a 'straw man' argument... NO ONE is claiming he is a messiah or a saint or comparing him to Dr. King! He is an honest, talented, educated former community activist from Chicago who went to Harvard Law School and became editor of the Harvard Review where he was known for being inclusive and for listening to his opponents. He taught constitutional law, and has a deep command of the issues facing this country.

Never in my 60 years of following politics (beginning with Harry Truman) and 50 years of voting, have I seen such a concerted effort to denigrate a qualified, elected political figure!

Song Wronger is a shrill hatemonger.... and you are a "ditto-head" from across the pond who just nods and 'thinks' there might be something to his BS because Obama is simply not the kind of leader you might choose.

   ... did I mention I don't like your attitude? Wouldn't want to be unclear...

Subject: RE: BS: Nasty Stuff Out, Pope/Manning/others
From: Songwronger
Date: 14 Nov 13 - 10:13 PM

Another interview with Mia Pope:

http://beforeitsnews.com/obama/2013/11/more-shocking-obama-revelations-from-mia-pope-jeff-rense-2457784.html

We don't know anything about Obama. We know some official narratives, but we can't investigate those narratives because his records have been put under lock and key.

We do know he's a liar. The events of the past couple of weeks have demonstrated that FAR beyond anything I've ever seen in public office. His Obamacare lies are orders of magnitude beyond Watergate.

Obama was given the smell test by Howard Dean (chairman of the Democratic National Committee) and pronounced noseworthy. Dean was paid to do that job. Mia Pope says she knew Obama back in the day. She's more credible than Dean.

And Obama deserves all the invective that can be heaped on him. He announced his candidacy for the presidency in the home of a murdering terrorist bomber, and it's been downhill since. He's a piece of shit. He should be in prison, not in public office. Same as mafia man Joe Biden and war criminals George W. Bush and Dick Cheney. Same as genocidalists Bill and Hillary Clinton. Anyone who places any confidence in any of these people has been, truly, conned. Grow up, people.

Subject: RE: BS: Nasty Stuff Out, Pope/Manning/others
From: Don Firth
Date: 14 Nov 13 - 10:29 PM

Mia Marie Pope is not believable AT ALL.

Songwronger merely WANTS to believe her--over all his other schoolmates.

Was she even there? Or is she a Tea Party shill?

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Nasty Stuff Out, Pope/Manning/others
From: Songwronger
Date: 14 Nov 13 - 10:31 PM

Here's a blast from 2007, a New York Times article warning that Obama was CIA. International Business Corp. was a CIA front, and young Barry had worked for them. Good article about scam artist Barack. Borne out by the history of lying he's demonstrated while in the white house:

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/10/30/us/politics/30obama.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0

Remember the NDAA, the National Defense Authorization Act? Obama said he would never sign it. Yet he did, and the act gives the president the power to "disappear" Americans "suspected" of terrorism. Obama said he disapproved of that provision, then later it was learned that HE WAS THE ONE WHO PUT THE PROVISION INTO THE LAW. lol. Do you people even UNDERSTAND the concept of lying?

Subject: RE: BS: Nasty Stuff Out, Pope/Manning/others
From: akenaton
Date: 15 Nov 13 - 03:50 AM

Bill, you have never "liked my attitude", that has been obvious from the beginning of my time here.
I can live with that, there are quite a few people here of whom I think the same. However, I don't feel the need to insult them by informing them of my opinion on open forum.

As long as you manage to keep your posts civil, I will try to get over your negative opinion of me....:0)

I don't think Mr Obama has been a BAD president, just that he could never be able to live up to the expectations of you or like minded people here......he is constrained by the system of government that YOU support.

Subject: RE: BS: Nasty Stuff Out, Pope/Manning/others
From: akenaton
Date: 15 Nov 13 - 04:00 AM

and BTW Bill, what is a "ditto head", do you think I have no understanding of US politics, after spending most of my life reading and trying to understand different political systems?

Perhaps you have the same opinion of me, as Ebbie has of SW?

Subject: RE: BS: Nasty Stuff Out, Pope/Manning/others
From: Ebbie
Date: 15 Nov 13 - 11:21 AM

"International Business Corp. was a CIA front, and young Barry had worked for them."

Strange. I have read other exposes that claimed that President Obama never held a job. My, my.

Subject: RE: BS: Nasty Stuff Out, Pope/Manning/others
From: Bill D
Date: 15 Nov 13 - 12:06 PM

"ditto head"... a pet name for the followers of Rush Limbaugh who happily agreed with anything he said.

To be fair, you don't *quite* rate that degree, since you DO debate and try to explain.. but your statement "..I think that SW is probably correct and that areas of Mr Obama's past are being hidden" sure has that ring to it. SW is SO far out that anyone defending his opinions without a lot of detail and explanation really gets to me... and how could YOU possibly have access to information that reasonably contradicted official biographies of Obama? SW just digs up wild claims by crazy people like Mia Pope & Orly Taitz and acts as though the wilder they are, the more believable they are! That IS the technique of a hate monger. You really want to associate yourself with that garbage? WHAT parts of Obama's past "are being hidden?"

You are correct that I have often had issues with the way you approached several issues..(you know which ones). You choose to defend ideas & positions in ways that astound many here... I am one of the milder of those who debate you.

Subject: RE: BS: Nasty Stuff Out, Pope/Manning/others
From: akenaton
Date: 15 Nov 13 - 01:24 PM

Bill, I find *most* people from the US debate reasonably, the really vicious ones, mainly from the UK, are not here for debate especially on the issue that you have covertly referred to.
On the contrary, they want debate closed down as debate exposes the truth about certain behaviour, and that truth does not sit well with their political agenda.
I am not sure if you fit that description, but I am beginning to have my doubts, perhaps you are just too nice a guy to speak your mind?

How I am perceived by others on this forum is always coloured by their own views, and most here are centre left liberals, and I would not expect such people to agree with the views of a radical socialist.

They talk the talk, but certainly do not walk the walk.
What they think of me on a personal level, has no bearing on my political views, I have a handful of very good friends here, whom I trust implicitly, they know some of my personal details and I care deeply about them.   That is as much as anyone can hope for on an open forum.

Subject: RE: BS: Nasty Stuff Out, Pope/Manning/others
From: BrendanB
Date: 15 Nov 13 - 05:49 PM

Akenaton, can you define the description 'radical socialist' please?

Subject: RE: BS: Nasty Stuff Out, Pope/Manning/others
From: Bill D
Date: 15 Nov 13 - 06:21 PM

"I am not sure if you fit that description, but I am beginning to have my doubts, perhaps you are just too nice a guy to speak your mind?"

HA! I'm not sure whether I've been insulted or praised!
I do speak my mind..although I try not to say everything that occurs to me as a possibility. The real point is that I also try to NOT debate with people who I consider too ignorant or crazy to carry on a genuine discussion. I do have discussions with Pete from 7 stars because I consider him honest & intelligent, despite my basic disagreement with his presuppositions and analysis. And the same basic principle applies to you on some topics.

As you note, some folks in the UK are a bit more... ummm.. 'explicit' in their opinions. I have often wondered if that tends to be a general trait, or whether we just have a skewed sample here in Mudcat. I often can't discuss certain things with even those I agree with due to their tendency to be sarcastic & insulting to their opponents.

People's opinions of others are always colored by their own views.... but it is how they develop and defend their own views that controls a lot of how they interact with others. You 'seem' to have some views that I and others **suspect** you do not totally admit to your reasons... but some of those who throw insults at you make little effort to sort it out. (Trying not to get into specifics here.)

My training for 6-7 years of college included analysis of how arguments and reasoning worked... and how to recognize careless and suspicious ones. That is always operating when I watch TV pundits, debate here in Mudcat, or simply read advertisements that distort truth and make deceptive claims. I do NOT read minds, so I seldom directly express an opinion about what they are actually thinking.. no matter what my suspicions.

So...to quit rambling... I DID find your general agreement with SW about Obama's real history to be ....ummm... less than thoughtful, so I said so. I find this to be true of many, many opinions people toss out about various conspiracy theories... and Obama's birth, religion, behavior..etc., are certainly subject to more wild theories than anyone can offer serious proof of. His actual life and data are too well documented for all the 'gay, Muslim, drug user' nonsense to have any traction... except for those who WANT to believe...or at least to suggest.. such things.

(Did you READ any of the Orly Taitz stuff? That is where a lot of this started.)

Subject: RE: BS: Nasty Stuff Out, Pope/Manning/others
From: akenaton
Date: 15 Nov 13 - 07:30 PM

Brendan...Its rather late, forgive me if I don't give my definition at the moment, as it will take some time and thought.
I don't think there is any general definition, but my political opinions have been formed by my working, life what I have read, and the people I have met.
Destruction of the Capitalist system is a must, if we are to survive as a species for very much longer.

But there is a lot more to it than that......Later.

Don..Thank you for a civil response, but I find the crux of your post, " You 'seem' to have some views that I and others **suspect** you do not totally admit to your reasons", incomprehensible, could you please clarify what you mean?

Do you mean that I am not sincere in my opinions regarding the health risks associated with male homosexuality and wish to harm them in some way by bringing these infection rates into the debate.
If so, you are quite wrong. Although I think that the practice of male to male sex is dangerous and unhealthy due to the intrinsic promiscuity in a very large section of male homosexuals, I have no wish to see fellow humans suffer unnecessary death or a lifetime of ill health, because some folks a unwilling to take the steps required to defeat the epidemic.
Also the cost effectiveness of lifetime treatment for the ever rising numbers of these unfortunate people will soon reach crippling proportions...estimates for the US alone are already into the tens of $billions
It is imperative that the epidemics of HIV, Syphilis, and other STD's
are stopped in their tracks.....and the complete failure of the current procedures to stop the annual rise in new infections amongst this demographic, proves that some degree of compulsion is required regardless of the "sensibilities" of the politically correct or the champions of "equality"
If these rates applied to any larger demographic like male heterosexuals compulsory testing and contact tracing would have been instigated years ago

Subject: RE: BS: Nasty Stuff Out, Pope/Manning/others
From: akenaton
Date: 15 Nov 13 - 07:33 PM

Sorry, that should have been addressed to you Bill.

Subject: RE: BS: Nasty Stuff Out, Pope/Manning/others
From: frogprince
Date: 15 Nov 13 - 08:52 PM

Ake, what some of us can't get is in this area: you are an avowed socialist, but you repeatedly recommended that we support Sarah Palin; don't you get that if Palin and her ilk are given their head, they will attempt to eliminate any vestige of socialism that we have here to mitigate our capitalism, and "reform" that capitalism to a much rawer, more brutal form than we now have?

Subject: RE: BS: Nasty Stuff Out, Pope/Manning/others
From: Bill D
Date: 15 Nov 13 - 09:31 PM

No... I do NOT believe you are "not sincere in my opinions regarding the health risks associated with male homosexuality".

That is mischaracterizing what I and others have said... and almost everyone who debates with you agrees that there are basic risks that need to be addressed in the issue. What is usually not too clear is what you view as the overall significance of such health risks as exist and why you dwell on MM relations when heterosexual contacts are often as guilty these days. (Especially in Africa)

Now you say directly it "...proves that some degree of compulsion is required..." Ah... and do you also suggest a fair way that "some" compulsion could be applied? Just how would an open society find and legislate a reasonable way to stop careless sexuality in ANY group? ANYONE would agree that education/information and medical advice and publicity are useful tools... but compulsion? ... segregation? Jail? Cameras in bedrooms? The mind boggles.
Perhaps "Destruction of the Capitalist system" is part of your plan? Would a Socialist system theoretically be free to impose "compulsion"? How far do you think THAT would go before you offend almost everyone? Capitalism has its flaws, but socialism's overlay of compulsion almost always requires military and secret police which is popular only with those doing the compelling.

It is my observation that very few who advocate such systems have a clear vision of the practical workings of their ideas. (*I* advocate a system of "enlightened despotism" ☺... with someone *I* approve of as Despot, of course, because *I* have my opinions of what enlightenment entails.) I have many ideas of what I or any good, decent despot should do... but I can barely imagine HOW to put them into practice..(like.. giving every 13 year old girl an implant which randomly contains a contraceptive. This is to reduce the over-population of the planet. Do YOU see all the intrinsic problems with making this work? I do.. and it's next to impossible. So is "compulsion" in sexuality.

Your turn....

Subject: RE: BS: Nasty Stuff Out, Pope/Manning/others
From: akenaton
Date: 16 Nov 13 - 04:23 AM

Bill, just rushing out to work, but I do agree there can be excesses of socialism, just as the excesses of Capitalism are so patently obvious.
I don't think there is any chance of a socialist system any time soon, and the epidemic inflicting homosexuals is a real and present problem. As such it requires quick and effective remedies, drifting along and allowing infection rates to rise 8 to 10% annually is just not an option......what is so difficult to understand about that? Is the problem, that "homosexual rights" have been adopted by the "liberal" left and the mass media as an example of "equality" in action?
This brings us on to acceptance of the fact that a majority of people worldwide, do not accept the left's views on "liberalism,equality, and even democracy. If we are to change our society long term, we must stop fighting these people (Mrs Palin, Froggie?), try a bit of our vaunted toleration and start to persuade, rather than demonise.
Many conservative social values are good for society, and many socialist principles unite us as a species, but the theory of Capitalism is divisive, unfair, and brings the very worst out in all of us. It has twisted humanity out of shape and perhaps it can never be repaired.

Subject: RE: BS: Nasty Stuff Out, Pope/Manning/others
From: Bill D
Date: 16 Nov 13 - 03:02 PM

"... acceptance of the fact that a majority of people worldwide, do not accept the left's views on "liberalism,equality, and even democracy. "

Fact? The only 'fact' is that a "majority of people worldwide" don't get a vote on what system they would prefer. The so called "Arab Spring" is demonstrating that, if given a choice, people want a lot more than they are offered. And remember Tiananmen Square? Many Chinese have an opinion.

You tout "conservative social values"... which I suppose, for you, includes "quick and effective remedies" to certain health problems. Over here, the general concept of "conservative social values" gets expressed in HIGHLY repressive ways by groups fueled by narrow religious beliefs. The trouble with discussing any concept that lends itself to multiple definitions & interpretations is that people can argue till the air is blue without agreeing on clear, specific suggestions & ideas... which is why I have several times asked you to outline what you would have society DO!
The "epidemic inflicting homosexuals" is NOT confined to them, but you seldom get away from that specific topic. Several of us here have asked you what your opinion would be IF AIDS & related problems were cured/controlled. Your answers have been seen as...ummm... vague and dissembling... leading some to speculate about your ultimate concern.

You ask: " Is the problem, that "homosexual rights" have been adopted by the "liberal" left and the mass media as an example of "equality" in action?"

This is a prime example of 'spinning' the definition of the issue! Why not agree that "homosexual rights" are only a subset of "human rights" and that certain 'rights', like freedom to marry, is a good example of "equality in action"? It is a 'fact' that long-term, committed relationships lead to a decrease in infections... yet, 'conservative values' still wish to deny this a a right and simply state that marriage must **mean** MF.. and not FF or MM. Most of these folks cite Biblical references... ignoring those who do not accept the Bible as ultimate authority.
Would not "equality" include the 'right' to live in accordance with one's personal values without someone else's personal values superseding them according to where they live? Why is it ok for gay marriage to be legal in 22 states, but OH MY... not in Texas or Mississippi..etc?

So.... a lot to think about (I didn't have to rush off to work, but I ought to spend more time preparing for my craft show in 10 days)

We shall see how this deviation from the thread goes...

Subject: RE: BS: Nasty Stuff Out, Pope/Manning/others
From: Don Firth
Date: 16 Nov 13 - 06:59 PM

Some of President Obama's high school chums have contradicted just about everything that Mia Marie Hope has claimed, and—in fact—nobody seems to remember her!

Who is she? And what is she getting out of this? Perhaps she's politically motivated, but I tend to think that she's looking for her moment in the sun. She seems to be doing the rounds of the Right Wing talk shows. I'm not sure if they pay people to appear or not, but it wouldn't surprise me.

As the poet Dante said of those who are relegated to the lowest level of Hell, "Let us look once, pass on, and think no more about them."

==========

As to the thread drift:   Somehow or another Ake seems to find his way back to the subject of gay marriage and how this will wipe out, not only the institution of traditional marriage, but threaten to wipe out the human race as well.

It is obvious to anyone who gives it a bit of serious thought that encouraging stable, monogamous relationships between gay men is the single, most efficient way of limiting the spread of HIV/AIDs. The virus is spread mainly by promiscuous behavior.

When gay men and lesbian women are speaking out vociferously in favor of same-sex marriage, anyone who as applied a few seconds of unprejudiced thought to the matter—and who is seriously concerned about reducing or eliminating the spread of the virus—can see that this is to be encouraged, not fought.

There is a movement in this direction currently extant in the United States, and same-sex marriage and the rights that go with it is now on the law books of many states—and is increasing rapidly. I have a number of gay friends and acquaintances and I know how hard they are fighting for same-sex marriage to be legal all over the country.

And as I have said many times before on other threads where the subject has come up, someone is going to have to explain to me how the recent legal marriage between our friends Paul and Philip can have a deleterious effect on Barbara's and my marriage.

It is not just a "liberal" issue. It is an issue of simple fairness.

Don Firth

P. S. Look out! Here comes Ake with the same old, tired arguments!

Subject: RE: BS: Nasty Stuff Out, Pope/Manning/others
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 22 Nov 13 - 05:18 AM

It's alright. He's found another thread to spew his hatred on.

He can't find anyone lacking in humanity there either.

Looks like Akenhateon is feeling a bit lonely....

The best way to kill bigotry I suppose.

Mind you, there is one problem with "liberalism." It gives creeps a platform to spew their hatred of being given a platform to spew their hatred.. Or some such bollocks.

at least a gay Mudcat member can see where he is marginalised, and if you can't shut him up, at least nobody is giving him respectability.

Subject: RE: BS: Nasty Stuff Out, Pope/Manning/others
From: akenaton
Date: 22 Nov 13 - 05:48 AM

Actually Ian, I have had quite a few messages of support, its just that some people cant "be arsed" listening to inane personal abuse from people like you, on a subject that they think does not affect them very much.

The only real hatred on this forum, is displayed every time you post your non arguments...you have never once addressed the serious points I make about male homosexuality and the effects on society of promoting this type of behaviour.

There have always been homosexuals and there always will be, each new generation brings its 3/4%, so to be against homosexuals, or to hate them as you accuse me of doing, is sheer stupidity.

Hatred serves no purpose, but if male homosexuality is to be brought into mainstream society and promoted as just another "loving" lifestyle, without reference to the serious negative aspects in every country in the world, then we are being very silly indeed.

Subject: RE: BS: Nasty Stuff Out, Pope/Manning/others
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 22 Nov 13 - 10:54 AM

Gay people are in mainstream society.

You aren't.

Live with it or don't.

The choice is yours, but in the meantime

Back in your hole worm.

Subject: RE: BS: Nasty Stuff Out, Pope/Manning/others
From: Don Firth
Date: 22 Nov 13 - 03:46 PM

My wife and I are about as main stream society as you can get, and we know, personally, at least four gay couples who got married almost immediately after same-sex marriage became legal in Washington State. And we know of a number of others.

In the city of Seattle, some 14% are gay or lesbian (not my estimate, but independently established statistics).

Discriminating against gays and lesbians makes about as much sense as discriminating against people who happen to be left-handed.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Nasty Stuff Out, Pope/Manning/others
From: GUEST, Ebbie
Date: 22 Nov 13 - 04:06 PM

Juneau, Alaska, where I live, has a high ratio of homosexual residents. I think it is one of the reasons that Juneau is such a vibrant city.

Subject: RE: BS: Nasty Stuff Out, Pope/Manning/others
From: Don Firth
Date: 22 Nov 13 - 05:43 PM

The same holds for Seattle, Ebbie. Seattle's gay population is supposed to be second only to San Francisco's. And although I haven't encountered an inordinate number of gays in the Arts, there seems to be, at least, a greater population of appreciators.

For a city that some Easterners regard as little more than a clump of log cabins and igloos and a silly-assed thing called the "Space Needle," we have managed to put together a world-class orchestra (the Seattle Symphony), Seattle Opera is the fourth largest opera company in the country, and Seattle Ballet is a real going concern, with top dancers and a regular schedule of performances (their annual Christmas performances of "The Nutcracker" is coming up). Several live theaters, all excellent. Paul, our upstairs neighbor is an actor, and he's busy all the time! Along with his wife, Rebecca, an artist, who exhibits regularly in one of Seattle's many art galleries, and is currently illustrating a children's book.

Public funding for the Arts is pretty good around here. I know a couple of city councilmen are gay, as are a couple of Washington State legislators.

Plus there are two living, breathing folklore societies here, and a couple of venues that regularly present folk singers; plus house concerts taking place somewhere in the city almost every weekend.

Not all of this is due to Seattle's relatively high gay population, but I'm sure there is a relationship there somewhere.

And for the Pharoah's information, Seattle does NOT have an inordinately high incidence of HIV/Aids.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Nasty Stuff Out, Pope/Manning/others
From: GUEST,Musket being sick
Date: 22 Nov 13 - 05:59 PM

The figures for The UK are also encouraging. The city very close to him, Glasgow, has a high gay proportion coupled with a lowering infection rate and high presentation at clinics for tests. The most concerning sexually transmitted disease is chlamydia. If his concerns were concern rather than hate, his logic would be forced testing of all people not in a monogamous relationship. Also, what he calls the homosexual act is anal sex. Far more women than men receive as it were. . In addition, many gay men do not partake in anal sex.

There is no clinical, ethical or other reason for his lies and distortions.

Just a bad person. We still have them sadly.

Subject: RE: BS: Nasty Stuff Out, Pope/Manning/others
From: akenaton
Date: 22 Nov 13 - 06:35 PM

According to the health agencies, every country in the world has massively higher rates of STD's amongst male homosexual than amongst heteros. Does that not suggest anything to you?

According to Ian, Glasgow has a high proportion of homosexuals and a falling infection rate.....is that falling rate amongst male homosexuals, or the public at large? I have never come across such data
The infection rate in the general public is falling everywhere, due mainly to the fall in hetero infections acquired abroad.
Men who have sex with men, are the only demographic in which infection rates are rising steadily from an already high base.

Ian if you are finally going to provide "facts" to the discussion, please be kind enough to provide sources.

Don, I believe you are confusing percentages and real numbers again,
Seattle may have a falling infection rate, but the demographic of MSM will still show the usual 7 to 9% rise annually...throughout the world this rise in infection amongst MSM is amazingly consistent.

Even in Sub Saharan Africa, where real numbers of infections amongst heteros are relatively high, infection rates amongst male homosexuals are much higher.

Subject: RE: BS: Nasty Stuff Out, Pope/Manning/others
From: Don Firth
Date: 22 Nov 13 - 07:31 PM

Sorry, Ake, but you are the one who is confused here. Those are accurate percentages from reliable sources.

And I am talking about Seattle, not sub-Saharan Africa. This is a different part of the world with a different culture and different laws.

If you really believe what you're saying, then you're letting your prejudices warp your numbers.

And it still sounds like you are invoking "spontaneous generation," a medieval notion that Louis Pasteur thoroughly debunked in the mid-1800s. Garbage dumps do not create vermin, they attract it. And MSM do not create HIV/Aids, it can transmit it, if and only if one of the participants is already infected.

That's pretty elementary, Ake.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Nasty Stuff Out, Pope/Manning/others
From: Don Firth
Date: 22 Nov 13 - 07:33 PM

Subject: RE: BS: Nasty Stuff Out, Pope/Manning/others
From: akenaton
Date: 23 Nov 13 - 04:59 AM

Don, I'm not trying to be obstructive to your argument, but I have never seen the figures you quote for Seattle. Could you print them for me please?
I am not trying to say anything other than that the rates of transmission amongst homosexuals are many times higher than transmission rates in heteros.

I don't think it is understood how the hiv virus turns into aids, but extreme rates of promiscuity must be a strong factor.

Subject: RE: BS: Nasty Stuff Out, Pope/Manning/others
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Nov 13 - 05:13 AM

HIV+ developing to AIDS.. This is rather well understood, hence the success of antiretrovirals.

To my knowledge, the only life threatening condition that can be exacerbated by promiscuity is cervical cancer. I doubt society can lay that blame at the door of gay men...

The only time I have seen this claim has been by ignorant preachers and far right criminal organisations.

Subject: RE: BS: Nasty Stuff Out, Pope/Manning/others
From: akenaton
Date: 23 Nov 13 - 12:20 PM

Anti retrovirals only treat the symptoms, as I'm sure you know very well. The condition is incurable

As you are so knowledgeable , how do you explain the huge discrepancy between the infection rates of homosexuals and heterosexuals?

Can there be another cause of the rates difference, than promiscuity?

Perhaps we are breaking new ground here, please enlighten us further.

Subject: RE: BS: Nasty Stuff Out, Pope/Manning/others
From: Don Firth
Date: 23 Nov 13 - 01:54 PM

Ake, the figure I quoted above came from a source I ran across a couple of years ago. I'm unable to find it again. However, according to a recent article in the Seattle Times newspaper, the percentage is a bit less.   12.9%.

CLICKY.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Nasty Stuff Out, Pope/Manning/others
From: akenaton
Date: 24 Nov 13 - 04:59 AM

That survey would not be valid, as it is subject to manipulation, the grouping of homosexuals in one particular area....we have the same situation in parts of the UK.
No sign of infection rates in the same confined area?

If you are comparing a GROUPING of homosexuals, with the NATIONAL infection rate it, the conclusion will be obviously skewed.

I presume that the survey contained returns from female homosexuals?...who of course do not come into the MSM demographic.

Anyway Don, thank you for the link and civil response...A

Subject: RE: BS: Nasty Stuff Out, Pope/Manning/others
From: GUEST,Musket throwing up
Date: 24 Nov 13 - 05:13 AM

Perhaps if you wrote civil posts, more people could be civil with you.

All data is subject to manipulation. The hate websites that interpret it for people like you are shining examples.

Any situation in any part of The UK is, as you have repeatedly demonstrated, beyond your comprehension anyway. Your confusion over infection rates doesn't only lead to false premise, but a premise that fits with your "perversion" and "need for compulsion" nasty little agenda.

You live in the same country as me. We both enjoy freedom of expression, we both share our country equally with those you would oppress and our public health data, borne of a single healthcare system (NHS) with no commercial involvement allows planning and intervention of health promotion as accurately as it gets.

Enjoy.

Subject: RE: BS: Nasty Stuff Out, Pope/Manning/others
From: akenaton
Date: 24 Nov 13 - 11:18 AM

You are a demented person Ian.....seek help.

Subject: RE: BS: Nasty Stuff Out, Pope/Manning/others
From: akenaton
Date: 24 Nov 13 - 11:44 AM

National STD statistics are not provided by "Hate websites", they are provided by sites like CDC and HPA, which you as know, are involved in providing information on heath issues to the general public.

National sexual health statistics are broken down into demographics in order to show which sectors of the community are affected and to what extent.

Now, I suppose you think these sites are "hate spreaders" because they provide information which you don't like being made available, information which you see as a danger to your "equality agenda".
You would no doubt prefer to see health statistics for diseases and conditions like HIV/AIDS and SYPHILLIS provided simply on a national basis, but this would be unsatisfactory from a Public Health point of view, as it could be assumed from the NATIONAL figures, that infection rates for these diseases were falling rapidly, when in fact, amongst the demographic MSM, the rates are rocketing

It would though, suit you perfectly,as the health problems in male homosexuality could be successfully hidden under the NATIONAL figures and your agenda would remain intact, while homosexuals would continue to suffer at rates many times higher than the National average

Subject: RE: BS: Nasty Stuff Out, Pope/Manning/others
From: akenaton
Date: 24 Nov 13 - 11:58 AM

I may have occurred to some here, including I hope, Grishka, that this extended debate concerns more than homosexual heath rates, but also and perhaps just as importantly, the phenomenon of "liberal fascism", which demand that any issue which contradict the "liberal" agenda must be demonised and silenced.
One can see this tactic employed on many Mudcat threads by a handful of Mudcat "liberals". The real liberals remain silent, read and learn.

Lest anyone mistakes my motivation, I am not a "right winger" politically, nor have I any religious affiliations.

Subject: RE: BS: Nasty Stuff Out, Pope/Manning/others
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 24 Nov 13 - 01:16 PM

The liberal agenda... Equal rights for all regardless of race, colour, creed, gender or sexual persuasion.

Sounds good to me, and I'm not a "liberal."

Anything else you want to add? Perhaps equality caused you to have a chip on your shoulder? I'm curious.. Why are you finding scapegoats for your own failures?

Oh, by the way. The Health Protection Agency is where UK public health statistics are translated into key points for strategy by healthcare providers. It's what drives the health protection agenda, and I have the privilege to serve as an advisor on certain NHS structure matters, although not STDs. I really do take exception to the twisting by fanatics such as the person behind the Akenhateon figure and his sources, well known right wing hate websites. He quotes from one in particular, down to the spelling and grammatical errors.

Mind you, he gives good entertainment sometimes. Believing ignorant lies about the US President, praising dangerous individuals on the right in The USA and getting his facts arse about face on most subjects.

But the entertainment ends when he quotes lies and bullshit about his favourite subject, forcing gay men to be put on a register for no reason whatsoever. None.

Back in your hole worm.

Subject: RE: BS: Nasty Stuff Out, Pope/Manning/others
From: Don Firth
Date: 24 Nov 13 - 01:20 PM

Ake, if there are "groupings" of homosexuals in a specific area, there should also be--according to your line of reasoning--groupings of HIV/Aids infections.

But that doesn't play out in the city were I live!

And this is not just a "liberal issue." It is a matter of human rights and simple decency.

"Fascism?" Those who would lock up homosexuals or force them to undergo health tests not required of everybody are the REAL Fascists here!

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Nasty Stuff Out, Pope/Manning/others
From: akenaton
Date: 24 Nov 13 - 01:28 PM

The "liberal" agenda is to conceal the truth when it is not to the advantage of "liberals"

The liberal stance, on the other hand, if a very fine thing indeed.

Subject: RE: BS: Nasty Stuff Out, Pope/Manning/others
From: Don Firth
Date: 24 Nov 13 - 01:32 PM

I take it that "liberal" is an epithet you throw out there when you can't rebut someone else's facts.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Nasty Stuff Out, Pope/Manning/others
From: Don Firth
Date: 24 Nov 13 - 01:59 PM

Ake, rather than your "concentration camp" approach to dealing with HIV/Aids infections, in King County, in which Seattle resides, most doctors include HIV testing along with routine physical check-ups, such as cholesterol and blood sugar levels. They don't put young gay men in a separate room and treat them differently from any other patient.

Obviously, it works, because HIV/Aids infection percentages are much lower here than other cities despite the higher population of gays.

Seattle is a vibrant, civilized city. And part of that is due to the fact that most of the citizens here don't spend any time pacing back and forth, smacking a fist into the palm of their other hand, and agonizing over what kind of bizarre perversions their neighbors might be indulging in in the privacy of their own bedrooms.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Nasty Stuff Out, Pope/Manning/others
From: akenaton
Date: 24 Nov 13 - 02:18 PM

Here is an example of what I mean.

"liberalism"

The actual HPA new infection rates are...

BY DEMOGRAPHIC    MSM.....62%
                  HETERO..27%
                  IDU's....2%
                  OTHERS...9%

BY ETHNICITY      WHITE...66%
                  Black Af..16%
                  Black Carr..2%
                   Mixed.....11%
                   UNKNOWN...5%

Are Black Africans less deserving of "equality" than male homosexuals?

Subject: RE: BS: Nasty Stuff Out, Pope/Manning/others
From: Don Firth
Date: 24 Nov 13 - 02:59 PM

"Are Black Africans less deserving of 'equality' than male homosexuals?"

Certainly not.

It sounds like you have a number of problems there in the British Isles.

But here in the area where I live, we seem to have it pretty well in hand.

Instead of trying to convert me, Ake, you might spend some time trying to find fair and effective solutions to the problems in your own area.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Nasty Stuff Out, Pope/Manning/others
From: Bill D
Date: 24 Nov 13 - 03:10 PM

Ake: I repost a quote from you in answer to one of my questions:

"..you say directly it

"...proves that some degree of compulsion is required..."

I reply:

Ah... and do you also suggest a fair way that "some" compulsion could be applied? Just how would an open society find and legislate a reasonable way to stop careless sexuality in ANY group? ANYONE would agree that education/information and medical advice and publicity are useful tools... but compulsion? ... segregation? Jail? Cameras in bedrooms? The mind boggles.
Perhaps "Destruction of the Capitalist system" is part of your plan? Would a Socialist system theoretically be free to impose "compulsion"? How far do you think THAT would go before you offend almost everyone? Capitalism has its flaws, but socialism's overlay of compulsion almost always requires military and secret police which is popular only with those doing the compelling.

You reply merely:

"...the epidemic inflicting homosexuals is a real and present problem. As such it requires quick and effective remedies, ..."

This is as close as I have seen you come to any suggestion as to a solution.

WHAT, I ask again, would BE a fair and effective sort of **compulsion**?

Subject: RE: BS: Nasty Stuff Out, Pope/Manning/others
From: GUEST,Troubadour
Date: 24 Nov 13 - 03:26 PM

"his attending schools that were far beyond his means."

Even if true, has this eejit SW never heard of scholarships and bursaries?

Subject: RE: BS: Nasty Stuff Out, Pope/Manning/others
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 24 Nov 13 - 03:40 PM

Don, I am a past chairman of a health provider with four hospitals and presently been brought in to sort out the structures required for the future for a health economy of over a million UK citizens, just over a billion pounds of public money and 14,000 staff.

I mention that just as context to refute his claims and hope that when you say "sounds like you have issues in the UK," you might be aware that we have very good figures for people being checked out and the take up rate by gay men is one of the highest in the world. I spent a few years inspecting hospitals and clinics up till this year, and have spent plenty of time assessing the quality of GU clinics.

Akenhateon is not describing The UK situation. Our high take up of people coming forward allows nasty people to use figures to describe a situation different to reality.

It helps his agenda, but is far from the truth. We have ms ny issues with obesity, smoking and sexually transmitted disease, especially clamydia in younger women, and yes, as the population increase and health promotion gets the message out, more people come forward, the HIV numbers go up. That is a success story of dealing with the issue. Also, audit data from accident and emergency (ER) and colo rectal services nationally indicates far more women than men having infection (and surgical) issues with anal sex. (What that bastard calls the homosexual act.)

He calls gay lifestyle a perversion. Sorry, his type make me feel ill.

Subject: RE: BS: Nasty Stuff Out, Pope/Manning/others
From: GUEST,Troubadour
Date: 24 Nov 13 - 03:52 PM

"How I am perceived by others on this forum is always coloured by their own views, and most here are centre left liberals, and I would not expect such people to agree with the views of a radical socialist."

I don't think so! It is always coloured by YOUR expressed views on Gays, travellers and other minorities.

We can only judge you by what YOU say, and it's not a pretty picture.

Subject: RE: BS: Nasty Stuff Out, Pope/Manning/others
From: Don Firth
Date: 24 Nov 13 - 03:53 PM

Got it, Musket. Sounds like things are pretty well in hand, contrary to Ake's screeds.

It becomes obvious that Ake's problems with homosexuality are Ake's. He's obviously obsessed with the subject.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Nasty Stuff Out, Pope/Manning/others
From: GUEST,Ebbie
Date: 25 Nov 13 - 12:59 AM

Just last night - and very briefly - it occurred to me to wonder what this one gay friend does in the privacy of his own home. And then the thought flashed: I don't want to know what my heterosexual friends do in the privacy of their own homes either. It just ain't my bidness.

Subject: RE: BS: Nasty Stuff Out, Pope/Manning/others
From: GUEST,Musket between courses
Date: 25 Nov 13 - 03:54 AM

Cheers Don.

Mind you, neither do I wish to sound complacent. This thread is about lies and politics and whilst healthcare has been a burning issue in The USA, it is always a burning issue here, as the National Health Service gets through so much public money. It is about £1850.00 per man woman and child. In England alone that is over a hundred billion. ...

So plenty of room for politics, ideology and linking to extreme agendas!

We have issues with hard to reach groups in general, which does mean the scale of any problem is higher than it should be. The poorer the area the later people present with their problems. Having universal free at point of delivery healthcare is good but that alone doesn't make our overall health of the population good. We have issues everywhere in the western world will find familiar. Obesity, drink related diseases, smoking and sexually transmitted diseases. The issue facing the work I am doing is, overall, an aging population. Victims of our own success! The links between health and social care could be better. Much better. Our emergency services are crammed full of old people, especially during the winter, whose presence could be avoided if primary and social care in the community was better linked.

We are tackling all of these to a greater or lesser extent. Sexual health is a mixed bag, especially with promiscuous younger heterosexual activity. Contact between the services and vulnerable Gay people has been a success story, although of course this means higher numbers of identified infections leading to extrapolating to higher rates.

This is seized upon by far right groups and sadly many religious groups as an excuse to find a scapegoat for society's issues. Again, same everywhere!

You can tell from his posts, Akenhateon isn't too quick on the uptake and this combined with some irrational hate within him makes him an ideal poster boy for homophobic pressure groups.

We have full equality (except sadly for religious organisations who are allowed to bar women from high office and preach inequality for gays) and earlier this year we righted a wrong and introduced Gay marriage.

Bigotry is being marginalised. The wish is for it to wither and die.

Subject: RE: BS: Nasty Stuff Out, Pope/Manning/others
From: akenaton
Date: 25 Nov 13 - 03:58 AM

Ian says, that, "as more people come forward, HIV numbers go up."

That statement completely and deliberately misses the point.
The important factor is not numbers of infections, but new infection rates.
These new infection rates now stand at 65/70% for MSM and have risen at a consistent rate for the last decade.
The rates in all other demographics are falling, including the rates for IDUs

It is frightening that someone who claims to have held a responsible position in health care, either does not understand the data produced by reputable health agencies, or worse, deliberately misrepresents it to bolster his "equality" agenda.

Regarding "compulsion", if some start is made now, to make testing available for those who really need it......Clue here....the demographic which is massively more affected than all of the others put together, though constituting only a tiny fraction of the population!! the compulsion may be avoided.
However, if something radical is no put in place to halt the epidemic soon, "compulsion" will be inevitable.

Subject: RE: BS: Nasty Stuff Out, Pope/Manning/others
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 25 Nov 13 - 05:14 AM

Making testing available! Why didn't we think of that?   Doh!

Luckily, we use real figures that support the targeted approach. Some areas of cluster groups, ,mainly in some inner cities would make disturbing reading if the few dozen at postcode level (the smallest demographic public health goes down to) were rated into the population of over 60,000,000.

But they aren't.

And they don't.

And threatening to put people on a register for their lifestyle choice is not going to get people to come forward in the first place. And who exactly?

Male.
Interested in anal sex.
Multiple partners.
Irresponsible.

I doubt that less than 1% of the gay population need so much scrutiny, especially as we get those figures via those who engage with the health services....

I'll send you a form to fill in to sign that you can prove you don't have unprotected anal sex with prostitutes. Sadly enough in Glasgow will let you, if you open your wallet wide enough.



Sorry everybody. For a minute I thought that laying down the facts would help, but there come a point when you realise you are just feeding his personality disorder, and that is something I am not qualified to do.

Subject: RE: BS: Nasty Stuff Out, Pope/Manning/others
From: Don Firth
Date: 25 Nov 13 - 12:36 PM

Thanks for the info, Musket.

It's obvious that as far as same-sex orientation is concerned, Ake has some "personal issues." I have found that the most rabid homophobes tend to hold their position tenaciously out of fear of their own impulses. And Ake certainly is obsessed with the matter.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Nasty Stuff Out, Pope/Manning/others
From: akenaton
Date: 25 Nov 13 - 01:04 PM

I'll ignore that piece of nonsense Don.

Ian...you are just being silly.
Those who should register are of course those in the demographic most severely affected, MSM.....Have you discovered what that means yet?
HPA say that there are just over 600 000 MSM in the UK, 66% of all new HIV and syphilis infections are amongst that 600 000(2011 figures)...the up to date figures will be well over 75% if infection rates have continued to rise at 7 to 9%.

This is an epidemic, which would cripple the Health service...and the economy, if it was affecting heterosexuals at the same rate.

What is so hard to understand about that?   Forget your agenda, these people need help not platitudes

In Cuba, the authorities instigated compulsory testing and contact tracing whenever the condition made an appearance, Cuba now has the lowest HIV infection rate in the world.

Subject: RE: BS: Nasty Stuff Out, Pope/Manning/others
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 25 Nov 13 - 01:13 PM

I know. And there are enough drop in clinics near where he lives if he wishes to put his fear behind him. It's a simple smear test, no injections or biopsies.

Regardless of the results, he also has free access to psychological help with his irrational compulsion to hate. Unless it is personality disorder of course, then our mental health legislation allows him to be assessed to see if he is a danger to himself or others.

A sad bitter twisted old man. They are usually harmless.

Except to unsuspecting people accidentally coming across his hate posts. That is rather unfortunate. I know many people through the folk scene over here who would be genuinely distressed to read his words.

Subject: RE: BS: Nasty Stuff Out, Pope/Manning/others
From: akenaton
Date: 25 Nov 13 - 01:29 PM

HPA say, that in 2010, 1 in 20 male homosexuals had HIV.
In London, the rate was 1 in 11.....These figures are three years out of date and infection rates are still rising.

Only 7 in 100 MSM have taken an HIV test.

Still think there is no cause for concern?

Shame on you Ian.

Subject: RE: BS: Nasty Stuff Out, Pope/Manning/others
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 25 Nov 13 - 02:26 PM

Put the rest of the data in.

Or get someone to do it for you.

The figures you speak of are not homosexual men. They are, as the HPA states and I have read many times, a demographic within gay men. A bit like prostitutes are a demographic within women. They represent the number at risk through lifestyle and the other socioeconomic grouping that indicate a high risk of not engaging with healthcare services.

They do not apply to gay men any more than HIV + through substance misuse applies to your Granny. She just happens to be a female, just like the high number of those in that risk group.

Also, the figures are not national even within the hard to reach group they refer to. They refer to an estimated exceedingly small percentage of the population if you check and also, as actual numbers of people on antiretrovirals goes up, the rate decreases and the success story in combating this awful condition within people gets better. Needle sharing and female infection are the main target areas in most health economies.

And we target them based on HPA figures. We are also aware of the fact that ignoring hate isn't being complacent. There are shocking statistics around, and your wish to make them worse by driving the problem underground is as bad as killing them yourself. Except in your pathetic little way, you and your thug friends are.




Why am I saying this? He either knows it anyway or those whose websites he uses conveniently disguise it to impress gullible twats.

Subject: RE: BS: Nasty Stuff Out, Pope/Manning/others
From: akenaton
Date: 25 Nov 13 - 02:52 PM

Answer the fucking question!

Subject: RE: BS: Nasty Stuff Out, Pope/Manning/others
From: Don Firth
Date: 25 Nov 13 - 03:15 PM

Mark Twain expressing in order of magnitude, "There are lies, damned lies--and statistics!"

Example:

Whereas people of European extraction tend to walk side by side, all Native Americans walk in single file.

At least the one I saw did. . . .

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Nasty Stuff Out, Pope/Manning/others
From: Bill D
Date: 25 Nov 13 - 05:17 PM

I think MY probing insights are now being ignored.... fine... makes it easier on me.

Subject: RE: BS: Nasty Stuff Out, Pope/Manning/others
From: GUEST,musket noting
Date: 26 Nov 13 - 04:59 AM

I hope that my missing post was due to it not reaching Mudcat.org. If it has been removed whilst incitement to hate (a crime where the perpetrator is based) is still there for unsuspecting people to see, it would be somewhat odd. Even if posting hate and neo Nazi ideology is ok where the moderator sits, it still ain't nice to read.

I shall try again.

Ahem.

Don't swear like that. Your posts are obscene enough as it is.

I suppose not having a tea party as such with the Fox based publicity, it is harder for UK based people to read or hear their lies without getting frustrated. I guess it washes off easier when you have to live in the same country as it? Sorry for my insistence in shouting down our resident fool. I just can't let it go un challenged