BS: Pedants be damned

Subject: RE: BS: Pedants be damned
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 20 Dec 13 - 04:56 PM

You're right, Michael. Those days seem more like a former life than a memory. Weren't we lucky though to have received such an excellent education? I was from a traditional working-class family, yet was given the opportunity to go to Uni. My sis became a doctor and I a teacher. That's why we're pedants; we treasure our finely-tuned grasp of spelling, grammar and correct usage. I thank each and every one of my dedicated teachers from those far-off days.

Subject: RE: BS: Pedants be damned
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 20 Dec 13 - 02:33 PM

Jawohl , Eliza.

Oh, well, I sat my General School Certificate exam in German in 1948, & received a credit, enough for Matriculation exemption. (GCE? CSE? GCSE? What the hell are they?).

As Louis MacNeice wrote so poignantly of the Ancient World —

It was all so unimaginably different
And all so long ago

Subject: RE: BS: Pedants be damned
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 20 Dec 13 - 12:46 PM

Well, Michael, I think I'd actually say,"Man ist...", because (der) Mann is the word for man! (This is a pedants' thread after all.)

Subject: RE: BS: Pedants be damned
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 20 Dec 13 - 03:32 AM

Yeah but she would prefer to see Santa come down the chimney than Wayne Rooney. He dribbles before he shoots.



Ok this is a pedant thread. No law against crass innuendo though. Apart from which, other than a forty year old joke about Geoff Boycott being in all day, I've exhausted my knob gag bank.





Oh hang on. Try this. Every time you crack one out a kitten is born. (Especially for our biblical literalists. )

Subject: RE: BS: Pedants be damned
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 19 Dec 13 - 06:46 PM

Musket ~~ He only comes once a year indeed: and then it's down the chimney...

Subject: RE: BS: Pedants be damned
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 19 Dec 13 - 06:44 PM

But, Eliza, if in German you simply want to make the pronoun impersonal [equivalent to French 'on', which is far broader in application & usage than our 'one'], you will say "Mann ist...".

The response cited above by Troubadour at 0821 & attributed to Musket was actually mine.

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Pedants be damned
From: gnu
Date: 19 Dec 13 - 06:39 PM

Thank goodness the spirit of the thread as intended has been restored. Solder on says me!

Subject: RE: BS: Pedants be damned
From: GUEST,Triplane
Date: 19 Dec 13 - 01:00 PM

Musket...... you should really by your own stockings

A F

Subject: RE: BS: Pedants be damned
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 19 Dec 13 - 12:23 PM

Ebbie.

She is staring at Santa Claus of course.

Because he only manages to come once a year.





Although when he does, he fills her stockings......

Subject: RE: BS: Pedants be damned
From: Tattie Bogle
Date: 19 Dec 13 - 12:09 PM

Back to the original topic: if pedants are to be damned, then what treatment should be meted out to bombastic pompous loudmouths such as SF in his tirade?
Answers on a PC please (or a Mac will do!)

Subject: RE: BS: Pedants be damned
From: Ebbie
Date: 19 Dec 13 - 12:06 PM

"Sat at the table staring at a fat bird who doesn't gobble any more." Musket 18 Dec 4:14 am

And what do you think she is looking at? :)

Subject: RE: BS: Pedants be damned
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 19 Dec 13 - 09:24 AM

Ah, but Lighter, in German, the moment one adds the verb, one knows whether the subject is female or plural.
For example, sie sind = they are, or Sie sind + you are (polite form)
             sie ist = she is

They still of course have 'er ist' for he is.

One of the things which makes me giggle every time is when one is making an appointment on the telephone and the receptionist asks, "What was the name?" as if I'm speaking from beyond the grave!

Subject: RE: BS: Pedants be damned
From: Lighter
Date: 19 Dec 13 - 09:14 AM

> With suitable expressions of contempt for the PC Brigade who made it necessary of course.

Anybody who was a kid in the 1950s, at least in America, knows that singular "they" was in almost daily use when you didn't want to reveal the sex of the person referred to. [Note normal, sentence-final "preposition."]

Ex.: "I have a friend and they said blah blah blah." If you mentioned he or she, that friend might be identifiable.

The Germans, moreover, have had no problem over the centuries using one word (pronounced "zee") to mean you, she, *or* they.

Make no mistake: linguistic evolution doesn't give a good ******* what you or I think is "correct." It goes its own way: compare Chaucer with Rowling. Every difference in usage, grammar, pronunciation, or spelling was once open to the charge of "corruption."

I have my own pet peeves, but every day reminds me that they're not widely shared, and that's fine with me.

The notorious "PC Brigade" would have no influence if others didn't want to follow its (occasionally absurd) prescriptions.

The key to "good usage" is simply not to look like a lunkhead when you're trying to impress people favorably. And lunkheadedness is often subjective.

"Language isn't logical. It's psychological."

But it's all been said before.

Subject: RE: BS: Pedants be damned
From: GUEST,Troubadour
Date: 19 Dec 13 - 08:35 AM

"Sat at the table staring at a fat bird who doesn't gobble any more."

ROFLMAO! And you owe me a keyboard Musket!

It didn't appreciate the hot tea.

Subject: RE: BS: Pedants be damned
From: GUEST,Troubadour
Date: 19 Dec 13 - 08:21 AM

"The idiomatic use of plural pronouns 'they', 'their', &c, to represent the clumsy & laborious 'he or she', 'his or hers', is generally recognised as acceptable,"

It's a good point, which hadn't occurred to me until Musket responded.

True, you learn something new everyday, but as a lover of the English language, the necessity for mangling it so is anathema.

With suitable expressions of contempt for the PC Brigade who made it necessary of course.

Subject: RE: BS: Pedants be damned
From: kendall
Date: 19 Dec 13 - 08:16 AM

"Pre order" sounds pompous to me.

Subject: RE: BS: Pedants be damned
From: GUEST,Troubadour
Date: 19 Dec 13 - 08:15 AM

"I'll tell you what, I've just been picked up for slipping a plural into a singular statement."

Strictly with tongue in cheek Musket. I have considerable respect for your posts.

Subject: RE: BS: Pedants be damned
From: gnu
Date: 18 Dec 13 - 09:38 PM

Nigel... that's why I wrote this thread.

Last time I was sober, man I felt bad
Worst hangover that I ever had
It took six hamburgers and scotch all night
Nicotine for breakfast just to put me right
Cause if you wanna run cool
If you wanna run cool
If you wanna run cool, you got to run
On heavy, heavy fuel
Heavy, heavy fuel
Heavy, heavy fuel

My life makes perfect sense
Lust and food and violence
Sex and money are my major kicks
Get me in a fight I like dirty tricks
Cause if you wanna run cool
If you wanna run cool
Yes if you wanna run cool, you got to run
On heavy, heavy fuel
Heavy, heavy fuel
Heavy, heavy fuel

My chick loves a man whos strong
The things shell do to turn me on
I love the babes, dont get we wrong
Hey, thats why I wrote this song

I dont care if my liver is hanging by a thread
Dont care if my doctor says I ought to be dead
When my ugly big car wont climb this hill
Ill write a suicide note on a hundred dollar bill
Cause if you wanna run cool
If you wanna run cool
Yes if you wanna run cool, you got to run
On heavy, heavy fuel
Heavy, heavy fuel
Heavy, heavy fuel

On heavy, heavy fuel
Heavy, heavy fuelLast time I was sober, man I felt bad
Worst hangover that I ever had
It took six hamburgers and scotch all night
Nicotine for breakfast just to put me right
Cause if you wanna run cool
If you wanna run cool
If you wanna run cool, you got to run
On heavy, heavy fuel
Heavy, heavy fuel
Heavy, heavy fuel

My life makes perfect sense
Lust and food and violence
Sex and money are my major kicks
Get me in a fight I like dirty tricks
Cause if you wanna run cool
If you wanna run cool
Yes if you wanna run cool, you got to run
On heavy, heavy fuel
Heavy, heavy fuel
Heavy, heavy fuel

My chick loves a man whos strong
The things shell do to turn me on
I love the babes, dont get we wrong
Hey, thats why I wrote this song

I dont care if my liver is hanging by a thread
Dont care if my doctor says I ought to be dead
When my ugly big car wont climb this hill
Ill write a suicide note on a hundred dollar bill
Cause if you wanna run cool
If you wanna run cool
Yes if you wanna run cool, you got to run
On heavy, heavy fuel
Heavy, heavy fuel
Heavy, heavy fuel

On heavy, heavy fuel
Heavy, heavy fuel

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WEUw1t8RcZ0

Subject: RE: BS: Pedants be damned
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 18 Dec 13 - 06:43 PM

Nigel, no worries. I've already pre-planned my turkey curry for the day post-Boxing day...

Subject: RE: BS: Pedants be damned
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 18 Dec 13 - 03:32 PM

And remember, like a puppy, a turkey is not just for Christmas.

There's cold turkey, turkey sandwiches, and finally curried turkey.
Should last at least until New Year :)

Subject: RE: BS: Pedants be damned
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 18 Dec 13 - 01:23 PM

I had pre-emptively pre-presumed some such pre-interpretation...

Ah ~~ pre-cisely...

So don't pre-imagine yourself first past the ~~

Subject: RE: BS: Pedants be damned
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 18 Dec 13 - 11:57 AM

Now now, The, I assure you that the exchange with the young lady (with whom I enjoy familiar rapport: we're like that in Bude) was light-hearted and executed on both sides with a nod and a wink. Actually, I'd presupposed you'd continue with this line of post-hectoring. You have pre-previous with this, you know.

Subject: RE: BS: Pedants be damned
From: Murray MacLeod
Date: 18 Dec 13 - 04:53 AM

Musket, I very very rarely LOL at anything I read on screen, but I must admit your post made me.

Subject: RE: BS: Pedants be damned
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 18 Dec 13 - 04:14 AM

Oy! Steve!

Your bloody turkey had better be worth the ruddy effort. All this debate... We need a full report on the flavour, texture and what you did with the rest when you couldn't face any more of the thing.

In the meantime, let us all reflect on what Xmas day means for most men.

Same as every other day.

Sat at the table staring at a fat bird who doesn't gobble any more.






Ithankyouverymuch.

Subject: RE: BS: Pedants be damned
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 18 Dec 13 - 12:33 AM

Steve: My point was really in defence of the young woman, who was not in fact in error as to usage or sense, but was doubtless distressed and left feeling vulnerable as a result of your misplaced censorious pomposity; which I trust your better recollections will realise not to have been entirely courteous to her.

~M~

It is 0527 hrs. I am an early riser these days, so I don't expect you will read this until rather later in the day. I have nevertheless pre-posted it.

Subject: RE: BS: Pedants be damned
From: Bill D
Date: 17 Dec 13 - 09:40 PM

Just remembered upon reading about 'pre-ordering'.

I actually heard once on National Public Radio: "This program was pre-recorded earlier." Surely they could have clarified it by adding "on a previous date."

I'm not sure whether that ranks with the waitress who asked me: "Would you like your sandwich with au jus?"

Subject: RE: BS: Pedants be damned
From: Airymouse
Date: 17 Dec 13 - 09:09 PM

Nigel: Thanks. I stand corrected. But I still don't like the word "gravitas." My copy of the OED has "gravisonous" followed by "gravitate." Of course there are words that the OED skips, which I see in use: "Jaws Harp" (for Jews' Harp) or "chairperson" (for chairman).

Subject: RE: BS: Pedants be damned
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 17 Dec 13 - 07:36 PM

You're a valiant fellow, Murray, but the turkey I ordered (not pre-ordered!) does in fact exist (unless, of course, Morrisons are a bunch of charlatans out to deceive the populace on the turkey supply front), and I have paid at least some dough upfront for said Xmas victim. Looking at this more broadly, I've noticed a trend for retailers of various ilk to invite us to "pre-order" stuff that isn't actually available as yet. Consider this: they are actually trying to make us feel as though we have some sneaky insight into the future availability which may not last, of course (so buy it now, quick!). Quite often, the goods on sale which can be "pre-ordered" become much cheaper a little while after they hit the market. "Pre-order" is a scam (and I'm being serious now for a minute). Albeit useful for the retailers who employ the term. Shit, did I really just say that??

Subject: RE: BS: Pedants be damned
From: Murray MacLeod
Date: 17 Dec 13 - 07:09 PM

"...If you are asked to pay in full at the time you place the order ...then you are not in any way "pre-ordering" the item ...you are ordering it, period. There is an implication that the item is in stock and available for dispatch or collection.


"...the form said I was pre-ordering the bloody thing, yet I had to pay a deposit amounting to half the price of the still-gobbling beast.


"pay in full" is not in any way equivalent to "deposit amounting to half the price" ...

I would concur that "pre-order" is indeed a neologism, one which would possibly have caused raised eyebrows on the part of Shakespeare and Dickens, but I would contend that in this modern world, it is a valid and acceptable term for what has become standard commercial practice.

Subject: RE: BS: Pedants be damned
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 17 Dec 13 - 06:04 PM

Now The, I'm an admirer of your general erudition, but, on this occasion, I have no hesitation in declaring that you are talking utter bollocks (you've done it before on several occasions, as it happens, but I haven't said anything). "Pre-order" is a senseless, useless, redundant and pretentious modernism. There is a bottom line here (to use another such), thus: if I go into Morrisons in April to order a Christmas turkey, everyone there knows what my intention is but I will, of course, be dismissed out of hand for being stupid. Rightly so, but no-one will accuse me of attempting to "pre-order". If I go into Morrisons in early December to bag me Kelly Bronze, stating that I wish to order my turkey, no-one but no-one will say to me "But ahah Mr Shaw! What you really want to do is to pre-order your turkey!" Everyone knows what I mean, come rain or shine, come winter, summer or pre-Thanksgiving, when I say "I wish to order a turkey." We have spoken thus for many centuries, and the "pre-" is a modern piece of superfluous and pretentious nonsense. As for the correspondent above who would make the nice distinction between pre-ordering and ordering on the basis of whether one pays upfront or not, well, dear boy, pick the bones out of this one: the form said I was pre-ordering the bloody thing, yet I had to pay a deposit amounting to half the price of the still-gobbling beast. I await your analysis with delicious anticipation.

Subject: RE: BS: Pedants be damned
From: Murray MacLeod
Date: 17 Dec 13 - 03:57 PM

Just to clarify the "order" v "pre-order" issue ...

I deal all the time with a company in the US who manufacture the most innovative woodworking tools and accessories you could wish for.

On occasion, they bring out a product which they believe will have a viable market, but prudently, they do not go ahead blindly and manufacture thousands of the items without knowing what the demand is actually going to be.

So what they do is ask for "pre-orders". If sufficient "pre-orders " do not materialise then the product will not get manufactured and nobody loses any money.

What happens in this case is that your credit card does not get charged until the item is actually ready for dispatch.

If you are asked to pay in full at the time you place the order ...then you are not in any way "pre-ordering" the item ...you are ordering it, period. There is an implication that the item is in stock and available for dispatch or collection.

Subject: RE: BS: Pedants be damned
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 17 Dec 13 - 02:42 PM

The distinction is that a 'pre-order' is an order given before the item becomes actually available, for it to be supplied as and when it is available; an 'order' is, as name implies, an instruction to supply you with the item. A synonym for 'pre-order' could be 'reserve', but it would be less precise.

You were at fault, Steve, in blurring a valid distinction, which the young woman understood (even tho she might not have been able to articulate it); and you didn't.

You have nothing to sound so self-satisfied about in this particular exchange.

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Pedants be damned
From: Murray MacLeod
Date: 17 Dec 13 - 01:29 PM

"I informed the young woman at Customer Services that I did not wish to pre-order a turkey: I wished to order one. She looked at me as though I'd gone bananas".

Steve, I do hope you are not one of those pompous gits who delight in informing the checkout girl that "It's not a PIN number ...it's a PIN".

Subject: RE: BS: Pedants be damned
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 17 Dec 13 - 06:45 AM

The idiomatic use of plural pronouns 'they', 'their', &c, to represent the clumsy & laborious 'he or she', 'his or hers', is generally recognised as acceptable, as English lacks the useful impersonal pronoun like French 'on' or German 'mann'.

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Pedants be damned
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 17 Dec 13 - 05:25 AM

How does one go bananas Steve?

I'll tell you what, I've just been picked up for slipping a plural into a singular statement. Makes you think twice before writing anything on a thread about pedantry...

Which brings us back to the title of the thread..

Surely, this is about damning pedantry, not perpetuating the noise it makes?

Eyup, I use albeit.. It's my word of the month I'll have you know!

If anyone wishes to write contorted mangled sentences, I suggest you try the style guide I worked to when writing regulatory reports for publication. If you look at any Care Quality Commission inspection report, available on their website, you will notice the poor ruddy inspector has to avoid gender, leading to singular to plural being the order of the day. "One person told us of their experience. They spoke of their lack of access to ...Etc."   That's one inspector speaking with one person by the way. They won a plain English award during my time too.....

Subject: RE: BS: Pedants be damned
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 17 Dec 13 - 05:05 AM

In my country it has suddenly become popular to use "gravitas" (weighed down with eggs) as if it means "importance". If I had used "gravitas" for "importance" above, would you have pictured an old book covered with insect eggs?
I think you're confusing:
'Gravitas' (weight/dignity) with 'Gravid' (weighed down with pregnancy/eggs)
As you can see, by carefully detailing each description they both have a relationship with weight (as with 'gravity')

Subject: RE: BS: Pedants be damned
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 Dec 13 - 09:18 PM

"Albeit". Use this stupid, pretentious word in my presence and you risk a fat lip, I can tell you. Also, the use of the abominable "prior to" instead of "before" (a lovely word if ever there was one) is a mortal sin. Finally, I went to Morrisons the other day with my turkey order form, on which I was able to "pre-order" my Kelly Bronze. I informed the young woman at Customer Services that I did not wish to pre-order a turkey: I wished to order one. She looked at me as though I'd gone bananas.

Subject: RE: BS: Pedants be damned
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 16 Dec 13 - 06:53 PM

Airymouse, Wikipedia says that

Gravitas was one of the Roman virtues, along with pietas, dignitas and virtus. It may be translated variously as weight, seriousness and dignity, also importance, and connotes a certain substance or depth of personality.

I don't know where you get the bit about eggs.

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: BS: Pedants be damned
From: Airymouse
Date: 16 Dec 13 - 06:13 PM

About this "lie" vs "lay" business. As the word, "layabout," suggests, this issue has been with us for some time. I think there are books that are important, but not great literature (e.g., Wizard of Oz,Uncle Tom's Cabin, and Life and Opinions of Tristram Shandy.) One of these is Richard Dana's, Two Years before the Mast,which became important, because it was a valuable source of information about California, for those who wanted to participate in the gold rush of 1849. Dana had spent those two years doubling the cape and visiting California. In Dana's book he mentions that the sailors talk about "laying out" in the sun. For what it's worth (not much I suspect) his conclusion is that the saliors' use is an ellipsis with "their bodies" being left out, but understood. BTW Mark Twain uses an incident from Two Years before the Mast in his acceptance speech at Oxford. Twain's use alone gives Dana's book importance, because Twain's speech is one of the best acceptance speeches ever given. OFF TOPIC In my country it has suddenly become popular to use "gravitas" (weighed down with eggs) as if it means "importance". If I had used "gravitas" for "importance" above, would you have pictured an old book covered with insect eggs?

Subject: RE: BS: Pedants be damned
From: GUEST,Troubadour
Date: 16 Dec 13 - 12:21 PM

"A holder of a doctorate in canine orgasms may consider their(?) thesis to be the fact of the day ......"

Multiple Personality Disorder?

Subject: RE: BS: Pedants be damned
From: Lighter
Date: 16 Dec 13 - 11:37 AM

Gosh, Bill, I never knew that the words "teacup" and "zebra" required dash-expurgation.

How attitudes change!

Subject: RE: BS: Pedants be damned
From: Bill D
Date: 16 Dec 13 - 11:16 AM

I suppose that's better than being a T-cup... or a Z-bra.

Subject: RE: BS: Pedants be damned
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 16 Dec 13 - 09:27 AM

LOL Nigel! Sounds rather like a large bra! (I'm Libra!)

Subject: RE: BS: Pedants be damned
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 15 Dec 13 - 08:44 PM

And, talking of 'scales'. Can we please note that the astrology sign often known as "The Scales" (Libra) is no such thing. It actually represents a 'twin pan balance'

Cheers

Subject: RE: BS: Pedants be damned
From: kendall
Date: 15 Dec 13 - 04:39 PM

On a "scale: of 1 to 10. 6.

Subject: RE: BS: Pedants be damned
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 15 Dec 13 - 01:51 PM

She was only the fishmonger's daughter, but she knew her plaice!

or,

She was only the fishmonger's daughter,
But she lay (lied?) on the slab, and said "Fillet!"

Subject: RE: BS: Pedants be damned
From: kendall
Date: 15 Dec 13 - 12:00 PM

"She knew her Plaice". LOL

Subject: RE: BS: Pedants be damned
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 15 Dec 13 - 11:20 AM

Here in Norfolk, 'lay' is used for preference. For example, "He's now laying on his bed," or "Hev a lay-down; dew, yew'll feel better." I believe it's because the word 'lie' has such strong connotations of dishonesty and deception. The meaning of 'lie' is so powerful that people are reluctant to use it even when it would be correct to do so. The two forms, 'lay' and 'lie' have therefore been strictly segregated according to their meaning, and 'lay' preferred subconsciously for having no dishonesty attached to it. If one wants to accuse someone of not telling the truth, one would say,"Yer looooooiiiing!" or, "Doon't yew looooiiii ter me!" with the word stressed and prolonged enormously. So when one meets it in the innocuous, "Lie down.", it grates and jars. Just a theory of mine!

Subject: RE: BS: Pedants be damned
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 15 Dec 13 - 04:42 AM

That whole scenario seems fishy to me. I reckon supine because she knew her plaice.

Subject: RE: BS: Pedants be damned
From: DMcG
Date: 15 Dec 13 - 03:39 AM

'Lie/Lay'

Having not even bothered to check with the dictionaries on this, the rest of this post is unfounded! However ...

Since this term will certainly predate the standardisation of spellings, and may well represent different accents, it seems to me extremely likely that actually these are the same word, and in normal usage I'd regard making a distinction between them as empty pedantry, as opposed to useful pedantry.

However, in the case of 'I told her a pack of lies and she decided to lie back': that's one of the few cases where it matters whether she became supine or vocal.